Question:

days.  I would guess the tire needed more brakes for some reason in each case. You said it was the home base and the base is notorious for the effect of sudden brakage.

The first plane was a Fed-Ex A-300 out of Newark. They stopped in less than 4000′ of runway. All 8 main tires were blown. Jacks had to be trucked in to raise it up to change the tires. Once it was raised, the brakes wouldn’t disassemble. It was on the runway about 12 hours. Interestingly, it isn’t in the FAA’s incident listings. The second plane was a DC-3 based at nearby airport. Flat tires on taildraggers can be tricky. Fortunately they didn’t ground-loop it. The local newspaper reported that no flights had to divert. You know I sent a sarcastic e-mail to that editor. D.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was a clear calm morning. The sun was just coming up over the ocean. The temperature was around 70F. I had an easy commute in to work. The employee parking shuttle bus driver waited for me to walk over and board instead of making me wait 15 minutes for the next one. I had only one Jeppeson update to do. There weren’t any nasty memoes from the chief pilot. No one was running their noisy APU, so I did the pre-flight exterior inspection. For once, I didn’t find any discrepencies. The only way it could have been better is if I started the day fishing instead of waiting until I got off work to go fishing. After the pre-flight, I was standing next to the plane chatting with a friend. He and I used to tow banners together. As we were talking, a big cloud of smoke rolled across the airfield. It was tire smoke but too much for a normal landing. Then a gate agent motioned for me to come up the jetway because the boarding passengers were concerned about the smell. I gave them an explanation that worked. After I hung up the PA, my helper-pilot told me that the main runway was shut down because of a disabled aircraft. We made a bet on which airline it was. It turned out to be my turn to buy lunch. Our departure time is at the start of the morning rush of departures, but the morning rush wasn’t happening because many flights were having headaches trying to get their weight down so they could use the short runway. We launched from the short runway in good time. The trip up to the Northeast was pleasant. We called the field insight from 60 miles out. Our turn time was good. We were ready to board when my intuition made the other pilot call clearance. Sure enough, we had a 2 hour gate hold because of delays due to a disabled airplane at our destination. That was going to cut into my fishing time. After the first hour passed, and the greasy spoon diner they call a restaurant had started serving lunch, I sauntered up to the gate area to get a bite to eat. I was surrounded by anxious passengers wanting more information. The gate agent had been instructed not to say anything. A certain irritable streak deep inside was starting to wiggle around because, unlike management, I know how to run an airline. I picked up the PA and gave the folks the information they craved. Just as my speech was winding down, the gate agent wispered to me that our gear-up time had been moved up. I keyed the PA again and told everyone that we had 20 minutes to be in the air or else ATC would send us to the end of the list. Those people must have liked my speech. They ran down the jetway. They stuffed bags in the overheads with super-human strength. I think I saw them shove the last standing passenger into a seat. We set a record for boarding a full plane. They must have liked my speech. Number 2 engine was lit and spooling up as we ran the runway. We made it into the air with less than a minute left of our edict. Maybe I should use that speech more often. The flight southbound was just as nice. ATC was giving vectors and speed restrictions to other traffic in order to get the required in-trail spacing, but they left us alone. All was going well. Too well. On the arrival, 30 miles from the airport, we were given holding instructions. It caught us by surprise. I had to fly the first orbit by hand until my helper-pilot programmed the hold into the FMS. Then he called the tower for more information. He turned to me and said, "What are the odds?". The main runway was still shutdown because it still had an airplane on it with 8 blown tires. The second runway was now shutdown because it also had an airplane on it with blown tires. What are the odds? The second plane was a DC-3. I know that the last DC-3 towbar left the airport a long time ago. The first disabled plane was still on it’s axles. The airport wouldn’t be open anytime soon. We decided that holding wouldn’t change anything, so we diverted to another airport. I never did get to go fishing that day. It was a beautiful day for fishing and I was stuck at the airport. What are the odds? D.

Two blown tire incidents in one days.  I would guess the tire needed more brakes for some reason in each case. You said it was the home base and the base is notorious for the effect of sudden brakage. And fishing at your homebase is a passtime so maybe it has to do with water near the end of the runway. I remember Boston for this problem in the news papers. Is Boston your base?? I remember the Massacheustts solution for the Boston runway problem was to keep the old one and add a second without water as the overrun. Except the new one solved the noise polution problem only and is a poor use for the new North End. Somebody had Mayor White’s old crowd mad at them way back.

Response:

It was a clear calm morning. The sun was just coming up over the ocean. The temperature was around 70F. I had an easy commute in to work. The employee parking shuttle bus driver waited for me to walk over and board instead of making me wait 15 minutes for the next one. I had only one Jeppeson update to do. There weren’t any nasty memoes from the chief pilot. No one was running their noisy APU, so I did the pre-flight exterior inspection. For once, I didn’t find any discrepencies. The only way it could have been better is if I started the day fishing instead of waiting until I got off work to go fishing. After the pre-flight, I was standing next to the plane chatting with a friend. He and I used to tow banners together. As we were talking, a big cloud of smoke rolled across the airfield. It was tire smoke but too much for a normal landing. Then a gate agent motioned for me to come up the jetway because the boarding passengers were concerned about the smell. I gave them an explanation that worked. After I hung up the PA, my helper-pilot told me that the main runway was shut down because of a disabled aircraft. We made a bet on which airline it was. It turned out to be my turn to buy lunch. Our departure time is at the start of the morning rush of departures, but the morning rush wasn’t happening because many flights were having headaches trying to get their weight down so they could use the short runway. We launched from the short runway in good time. The trip up to the Northeast was pleasant. We called the field insight from 60 miles out. Our turn time was good. We were ready to board when my intuition made the other pilot call clearance. Sure enough, we had a 2 hour gate hold because of delays due to a disabled airplane at our destination. That was going to cut into my fishing time. After the first hour passed, and the greasy spoon diner they call a restaurant had started serving lunch, I sauntered up to the gate area to get a bite to eat. I was surrounded by anxious passengers wanting more information. The gate agent had been instructed not to say anything. A certain irritable streak deep inside was starting to wiggle around because, unlike management, I know how to run an airline. I picked up the PA and gave the folks the information they craved. Just as my speech was winding down, the gate agent wispered to me that our gear-up time had been moved up. I keyed the PA again and told everyone that we had 20 minutes to be in the air or else ATC would send us to the end of the list. Those people must have liked my speech. They ran down the jetway. They stuffed bags in the overheads with super-human strength. I think I saw them shove the last standing passenger into a seat. We set a record for boarding a full plane. They must have liked my speech. Number 2 engine was lit and spooling up as we ran the runway. We made it into the air with less than a minute left of our edict. Maybe I should use that speech more often. The flight southbound was just as nice. ATC was giving vectors and speed restrictions to other traffic in order to get the required in-trail spacing, but they left us alone. All was going well. Too well. On the arrival, 30 miles from the airport, we were given holding instructions. It caught us by surprise. I had to fly the first orbit by hand until my helper-pilot programmed the hold into the FMS. Then he called the tower for more information. He turned to me and said, "What are the odds?". The main runway was still shutdown because it still had an airplane on it with 8 blown tires. The second runway was now shutdown because it also had an airplane on it with blown tires. What are the odds? The second plane was a DC-3. I know that the last DC-3 towbar left the airport a long time ago. The first disabled plane was still on it’s axles. The airport wouldn’t be open anytime soon. We decided that holding wouldn’t change anything, so we diverted to another airport. I never did get to go fishing that day. It was a beautiful day for fishing and I was stuck at the airport. What are the odds? D.

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Question:

Peter Charles: (snip) It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies.

More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Dave

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More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived.

Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence either.

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My father brought home a 23 pound Pike from Minnesota years ago that had a huge scar on both sides of it’s body that was the result of a considerably larger Pike getting a death grip on her.  The wound was mostly healed, and the fish put up a great fight, so it clearly wasn’t weakened.   Some have said that the bleeding won’t stop.  That is simply wrong.   Some have said that if the gills are cut, then the bleeding won’t stop.  That may be true in some circumstances, but certainly not in all circumstances. Is it possible that these stories about certain death are created by "bleeding heart" folks who need justification for bringing a fish home to the table? My experience matches Peter’s with juveniles being more delicate, and with larger fish surviving tremendous injuries. Last year at Great Slave Lake my son Andy caught a blind pike.  The fishes eyes were entirely gone, but it managed to find his fly and put up a presentable fight.  It was only 6 or 7 pounds, and uninjured by the fly so we released it.  We couldn’t guess how it lost it’s sight. Frank Ammoto(sp?) wrote an article about steelhead fishing in BC long ago where he caught a steelhead that didn’t put up the usual fight.   When he landed it he discovered that literally half of it’s head had been bitten off by a seal.  This fish was 100 miles upstream from the nearest seal. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence either.

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Is it possible that these stories about certain death are created by "bleeding heart" folks who need justification for bringing a fish home to the table?

I watched a fish bleed to death in Yellowstone this summer.  I was kind of mad that I couldn’t keep it because it was a cutthroat, but wrote it off as bug food and essential nutrients going back into the river.  It did die though.  There was no mistaking it.  No big deal really.  I am sure some other critter was able to enjoy a nice fish. Unlike "some" people, I am not tormented by this. I wonder if water temps, time of year, etc make much of a difference. Perhaps in colder waters, their metabolism is moving slower and the bleeding eventually stops compared to warm water, faster metabolism, etc. I do know that fish don’t have much of an circulatory system compared to other animals and so deep wounds may not even bleed at all.  Think about it.  When you clean a fish, how much blood do you get and where are you getting it?  I don’t draw blood when I lop off the fins of some perch and don’t strike blood until I lop off their heads or when I open them up to gut.  Just a few thoughts and not scientific answers. . . . — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter?

That’s supposed to be a joke?? You remain one sick fuckin’ puppy.

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Along this line, it is now advocated by some that C&R bass fishermen brink along a hypodermic needle to "fizz" the air bladder of bass caught in deeper whater. Bass can not readily adjust their swim bladders so when they are released, they float on top. This has resulted in extreme mortality in some tournaments. There is a very specific location for the placement of the needle through the skin, so you need to familiarize yourself with the anatomy thoroughly before doing it.

Tim, This came up recently either on ROFF or ROFS. If ROFF sorry for the repeat of the site. http://www.leadertec.com/Catch_release.html Kiyu

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Frankly, I don’t know the scientific name for fish slime but I would like to know it.  You don’t suppose there is someone here that can find the term here in ROFF Scott?

Well, as an erstwhile medical practitioner, I usually call it icky goo. When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter?

Has it ever occurred to you to wonder why so many people would rather consort with fish slime than with you? Still not Pete

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Sure, they do die, I’ve seen that often too. I bet the water temperature has a lot to do with it.  Dry Falls Lake is a selective fishery in Eastern Washington that has a nice collection of 14 to 24 inch rainbows and a few nice browns.  One year it was warmer than usual around opening day, and I could see twenty or thirty dead fish on the second day of the season while the morning of the first day there were none.  I was sure these were fish that had been injured when they were hooked and released.  Other years there were no dead fish on the second or third day.  I’m sure it wasn’t any difference in the anglers or the education or the fish.  It had to be environmental. Today I was fishing for Silvers on the Cascade river and snagged a hard fighting 7 pounder.  All the skin and flesh was gone from the top of his head, right down to the bone.  That’s an area of about four square inches.  He put up quite a fight, and I released him unharmed.  The wound was red around the edges, and the rest was clean white bone.  The only likely perpetrator was a seal, and that had to have happened thirty miles down stream at the mouth of the Skagit.   All this is cold clean water, I’m sure that helped. As for that horible feeling that the fish has died, I don’t get that either.  It is wonderful to see all these dead pink salmon providing the nutrients our rivers have been starving for over the last several years. Chas Still thinking about carpooling to the Pike clave… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I watched a fish bleed to death in Yellowstone this summer.  I was kind of mad that I couldn’t keep it because it was a cutthroat, but wrote it off as bug food and essential nutrients going back into the river.  It did die though.   … snip . . — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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I’m not sure I understand humane in this context, so I’ll just leave that part alone.  My understanding is that the fish taste better if you keep them on a stringer for a while so they can work out the built up lactic acid, and then bleed them as completely as possible. Why do I care about the slime on a fish I’m keeping?  (That’s an honest question, not a sarcastic comment)  I’ve noticed that fish I’ve gutted in the field and packed on ice seem to build up a heave slime layer by the time I get them home.  I wonder if the "slime glands" are like our hair folicles and keep functioning after the body has died. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

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I’m not sure I understand humane in this context, so I’ll just leave that part alone.  My understanding is that the fish taste better if you keep them on a stringer for a while so they can work out the built up lactic acid, and then bleed them as completely as possible.

just bleed them… it’s all one needs to do.  and you can thwack them on the head and then bleed them (and they’ll bleed fully dead) chris

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I do know that fish don’t have much of an circulatory system compared to other animals and so deep wounds may not even bleed at all.  Think about it.  When you clean a fish, how much blood do you get and where are you getting it?

Not much.  Maybe that’s the answer.  Fish just don’t have that much blood. Other than a major artery or the gills, they just don’t bleed much.  When you do cut the gills, they can lose such a high percentage of their blood so quickly (relatively speaking) that it’s sometimes fatal.  Maybe it’s not a blood clot issue at all.

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More anecdotal stuff: Some people survive shotgun blasts, and others are killed instantly by mishandled .22s loaded with .22 shorts. Sometimes game animals are killed with one (particular) shot, other times, they aren’t.  Of course some fish survive mauling, etc., while others die from seemingly minor wounds.  Why is anyone surprised, or doubt it happens?

Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period.

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Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period.

Water, itself makes clotting difficult due to dilution.  The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t necessary, don’t you see? George Gehrke

  george.vcf

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The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t

necessary, don’t you see? I see the beauty of releasing bleeders in to an 11 inch cold handle cauterizer… — TBone

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Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period. Water, itself makes clotting difficult due to dilution.  The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t necessary, don’t you

see? Catercizes.  Yes, I think I see now.

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I suspect you’re right.  I think the main reason I keep them on a stringer is that I like to get them on ice as soon after they die as possible.  If I’m going to keep fishing, I’d rather keep the fish fresh by keeping it alive.  I know that’s not what I said before, but in that context I thought the delay might have some value. Thanks Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just bleed them… it’s all one needs to do.  and you can thwack them on the head and then bleed them (and they’ll bleed fully dead) chris

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The best way to preserve ‘the slime layer’ is to never touch a fish with dry hands nor do you let it flop on dry ground. Frankly, I don’t know the scientific name for fish slime but I would like to know it.  You don’t suppose there is someone here that can find the term here in ROFF Scott? When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

  george.vcf

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In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health.

Along this line, it is now advocated by some that C&R bass fishermen brink along a hypodermic needle to "fizz" the air bladder of bass caught in deeper whater. Bass can not readily adjust their swim bladders so when they are released, they float on top. This has resulted in extreme mortality in some tournaments. There is a very specific location for the placement of the needle through the skin, so you need to familiarize yourself with the anatomy thoroughly before doing it. — TBone

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Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence eithe

I’ve seen many trout that have had huge scars and chunks of flesh missing that have survived quite well, but *every* trout or salmon that I’ve seen bleeding from the gills has died within minutes, often within seconds. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding.

IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

Response:

Peter Charles: (snip) It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies. More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Dave

More anecdotal stuff: Some people survive shotgun blasts, and others are killed instantly by mishandled .22s loaded with .22 shorts. Sometimes game animals are killed with one (particular) shot, other times, they aren’t.  Of course some fish survive mauling, etc., while others die from seemingly minor wounds.  Why is anyone surprised, or doubt it happens? TC, R

Response:

In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but practice makes perfect This IS a choice which is better then nothing at all. George Gehrke

  george.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

I’m trying to imagine handling the fish’s gills carefully enough to find the wound, then striking the match, blowing it out, and getting it inside the fish to cauterize the wound.  All this needs to be within 30 seconds so the air on the gills doesn’t do the dastardly deed. Interesting idea, but a bit far-fetched. I don’t have any proof in the case of trout, but I’ve seen that bleeding pills in Pike aren’t always lethal.  On a couple 30 fish days up at Great Slave Lake, we had 3 or 4 fish that we released despite the bleeding.   The bay we were fishing had a bare mud bottom only about 3 feet deep, so we could see the fish on the bottom.  They developed a red spot on the bottom from the bleeding.  As we came over those areas later, we noticed the spots, but the fish were gone. I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. I’m sure these cuts aren’t good, but I think at least some fish survive them. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a multi-part message in MIME format. In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but practice makes perfect This IS a choice which is better then nothing at all. George Gehrke [ george.vcf ] (Attachment)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m trying to imagine handling the fish’s gills carefully enough to find the wound, then striking the match, blowing it out, and getting it inside the fish to cauterize the wound.  All this needs to be within 30 seconds so the air on the gills doesn’t do the dastardly deed. Interesting idea, but a bit far-fetched. I don’t have any proof in the case of trout, but I’ve seen that bleeding pills in Pike aren’t always lethal.  On a couple 30 fish days up at Great Slave Lake, we had 3 or 4 fish that we released despite the bleeding.   The bay we were fishing had a bare mud bottom only about 3 feet deep, so we could see the fish on the bottom.  They developed a red spot on the bottom from the bleeding.  As we came over those areas later, we noticed the spots, but the fish were gone. I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. I’m sure these cuts aren’t good, but I think at least some fish survive them. Chas

Chas, I don’t have the range of encounters that you have mentioned but I can talk about a few instances.  We are taught that fish have no platelets and all bleeding inevitably leads to death.  I have hooked deeply small trout on C&R or slot limit streams that I was required by law to release and I have watched these bleeding fish die.  Yet I have also hooked a landlock salmon under the jaw, caused a very nasty, distinctive wound, had it bleed, released it (as required by law) and caught it the very next day on the same fly.   I have also caught smallmouth with fresh, bleeding mouth wounds opposite to the site of the hook puncture, that I had obviously caused having hooked and lost the same fish some time earlier (I was the only fisherman there.) These experiences have suggested to me that fish with major bleeding will die but a minor bleed is not necessarily fatal.  I also agree that pike with minor bleeding wounds will usually survive.  In my experience, most pike that are brought into a boat are returned to the water with at least some bleeding.  They thrash so much that even with experienced handling, it’s hard to keep them from banging into something that will cut them.  If mortality from these casual bleeds was 100%, C&R mortality for pike would be probably in excess of 50%. Nobody talks about pike as being endangered. So obviously, C&R mortality has to be running a lot lower (as suggested by virtually all studies – however flawed.)   Therefore, bleeding is not necessarily fatal – hardly scientific but definitely within the experience of this fisherman.  I have also caught steelhead with a fungus growth covering wounds inflicted during the migration, from nest building, and from fighting.  If steelhead died from the first bleeding wound, there wouldn’t be very many steelhead around. It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

I am looking for good links to what YOU consider to be the best internet shopping sites for fishing equipment, in particular fly fishing equipment. I have used Cabela’s myself, and found many good deals there. Thanks for your help! Eivind

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Try Bass Pro Shops www.basspro.com

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Question:

After reading this group for a couple of years it has become clear that a lot of people either have much more disposable income than I do, or that my priorities are skewed somehow.  At any rate, I’m looking for a new rod to replace the old glass Fenwick I’ve fished for 15+ years, but I don’t want to shell out $300.  Or even $200.  Less than $100 would be great–

Well, Derek, there is both bad news and good news for you. Yes, there was a time long ago when it was possible to fool a trout and enjoy a "quality angling experience" (QAE to those of us in the industry) with a $100 rod, but those days are long behind us. As we approach the turn of a century, studies show that there are very few trout in today’s streams that will engage anglers who use inexpensive rods. Sure, some anglers will tell you that when it comes to rod blanks, "plastic is plastic", but someone who really knows the industry will answer "yes, but some plastics are more plastic than others". Having arrived at this dilemma, your choice becomes clear. The good news for you, Derek, is that you are unlikely to find many rods for less than $200, making it much easier for you to avoid an inexpensive flyrod by simply paying more money for an expensive one. Moreover, a knowledgeable rod merchant will surely do all he can to guide you toward the most expensive alternative to an inexpensive purchase. Spinolio

Response:

Want I want is simple, an 8.5′ 5wt rod that will cast well enough to keep me happy and won’t fall apart. The St. Croix Pro Graphite rods have gotten very good reviews, I often hear them being called the best value in fly fishing. I think cost $75 or so. St. Croix Imperials and Redington Red Start rods are also supposed to be nice, they cost between $100 and $150.

Several people have made this recommendation.  The problem is, there are no fly shops anywhere near me.  The only place in town with fly gear sells G. Loomis rods (at list) to yuppies, and little else (it’s just a sporting goods store).  Anyone know of a good mail order source?  Some place with a friendly return policy? Test cast them all and let me know how it comes out!

Can anyone recommend a fly shop (or a good sporting retailer) in Indianapolis or Louisville?  I usually wait until I’m back in Oregon/Idaho visiting family to buy anything of significance (Kaufman’s Streamborne in PDX, and Intermountain Arms in Boise). — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University       Department of History   "Eastward I go by force, but Westward I go free!"  -H. D. Thoreau

Response:

Not quite….the Legend Series St Croix is 42 million mods, while the less expensive Imperial is 32 million modulus, and is a somewhat slower action rod.

I like a slower action, and fortunately (for me) the slower rods can be less expensive (unless you get into split cane, but that’s a whole other topic).   When you’re rod shopping, one method that works pretty well is to not only test cast the rod (or rods) you’re thinking of buying, but to also test a more expensive rod, so you have something for comparison.  You may even find that the less expensive rod is more to your liking.  Find the rod that is right for you, and to hell with what you’re "supposed" to prefer.  The emperor has no clothes. CQ

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Rick Fletcher wrote to: [snip] try and build from a blank.  It’s worth the time and money saved, just like tying.

Interesting idea. How much would it cost to build my own $300 rod? How much is saved? bird

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Several people have made this recommendation.  The problem is, there are no fly shops anywhere near me.  The only place in town with fly gear sells G. Loomis rods (at list) to yuppies, and little else (it’s just a sporting goods store).  Anyone know of a good mail order source?  Some place with a friendly return policy?

Ask the ownner if you can look at his gear catalogues – he is visited weekly by fishing gear salesmen who would gladly sell him anything he wanted to buy.  He probably keeps the catalogues in the back office.  Ask when the local salesman (or saleswoman) is coming through, and you can ask them about their lines.  If the guy won’t help you do this, boycott the store.

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Its my understanding that all of the St. Croix series use the same graphite.  Thus no difference in performance.

I looked over both the Pro and the Imperial.  About the only differences that I noticed were the blank and the performance.   Both were good rods, but IMHO, the Imperial was much better, and only a little bit more expensive. CQ

Response:

Yes, there was a time long ago when it was possible to fool a trout and enjoy a "quality angling experience" (QAE to those of us in the industry) with a $100 rod, but those days are long behind us. As we approach the turn of a century, studies show that there are very few trout in today’s streams that will engage anglers who use inexpensive rods.

Mr. Spinolio:  I really must disagree with your comments about the price of a rod significantly impacting on an anglers success rate.  With respect to the U.S.A., I’ll bow to your experience; but in my area of Canada, I don’t agree that this correlation applies.  Granted, we don’t get the pressure on our streams that Montana residents do; but I happily take large browns on the most heavily fished river in Ontario with both my Sage graphite, an old Algonquin "feralite" and a cane rod left to me by my father that’s older than Moses. IMHO an angler adapts his skills to his tackle.  It’s no doubt easier to fish a $5000.00 custom made bamboo than an old glass rod…but if you can’t afford the custom, buy the best you can afford and go fishing.  I’ve never known a fish to check the price tag on a rod before inhaling a nymph.    Here’s a suggestion for Derek that may allow him to buy good tackle for a fraction of the cost of new.  Go to your local fly fishing school, (there’s probably one near by…they’re popping up like mushrooms after a spring rain) and ask them if they have any rods for sale.  You’ll be amazed.  Especially if you offer cash and don’t ask for a receipt.  Then you’ll have quality, cheaply, and you can worry about your backcast as opposed to the cost of your rod.   Jim Ward Twin Willow Farm Home of good horses, fine whiskey and great wild trout.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Want I want is simple, an 8.5′ 5wt rod that will cast well enough to keep me happy and won’t fall apart. The St. Croix Pro Graphite rods have gotten very good reviews, I often hear them being called the best value in fly fishing. I think cost $75 or so. St. Croix Imperials and Redington Red Start rods are also supposed to be nice, they cost between $100 and $150. Several people have made this recommendation.  The problem is, there are no fly shops anywhere near me.  The only place in town with fly gear sells G. Loomis rods (at list) to yuppies, and little else (it’s just a sporting goods store).  Anyone know of a good mail order source?  Some place with a friendly return policy? Test cast them all and let me know how it comes out! Can anyone recommend a fly shop (or a good sporting retailer) in Indianapolis or Louisville?  I usually wait until I’m back in Oregon/Idaho visiting family to buy anything of significance (Kaufman’s Streamborne in PDX, and Intermountain Arms in Boise). — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University       Department of History   "Eastward I go by force, but Westward I go free!"  -H. D. Thoreau

There is a recent Orvis shop up nin the Keystone area; nice folks.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …I’m looking for a new rod to replace the old glass Fenwick I’ve fished for 15+ years, but I don’t want to shell out $300.  Or even $200.  Less than $100 would be great… Check out the St. Croix Imperial graphite.   They list for $120, which includes a rod case, and lifetime guarantee. I just bought one (a 9′ 4/5wt); cast it and a Diamondback side by side, and thought the St. Croix was better.  They also make a Pro series, that costs less, but for the performance, the Imperial is a better buy. CQ Its my understanding that all of the St. Croix series use the same graphite.  Thus no difference in performance.  But I agree, they are a great buy. Jim

Hi Jim,      Not quite….the Legend Series St Croix is 42 million mods, while the less expensive      Imperial is 32 million modulus, and is a somewhat slower action rod. I own their      4 piece 5/6 travel rod, and the little 7′ 3 wt, and believe St Croix is one of the best buys      on the market. connection with the company,      just a satisfied customer. Regards,

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Derek, another suggestion:  I just recently bought a 8.5, 5 wt rod from Orvis.   It is part of a relatively new series of less-expensive rods, called the Clearwater series.  Its a good rod, similar to their more expensive rods, and you can definitely mail order it from Orvis. Steve

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…I’m looking for a new rod to replace the old glass Fenwick I’ve fished for 15+ years, but I don’t want to shell out $300.  Or even $200.  Less than $100 would be great… Check out the St. Croix Imperial graphite.   They list for $120, which includes a rod case, and lifetime guarantee. I just bought one (a 9′ 4/5wt); cast it and a Diamondback side by side, and thought the St. Croix was better.  They also make a Pro series, that costs less, but for the performance, the Imperial is a better buy. CQ

Its my understanding that all of the St. Croix series use the same graphite.  Thus no difference in performance.  But I agree, they are a great buy. Jim

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: After reading this group for a couple of years it has become clear that a : lot of people either have much more disposable income than I do, or that : my priorities are skewed somehow.  At any rate, I’m looking for a new rod [snip] Sheesh Derek, you’ve been around here long enough to have heard all this before.  Are you just trying to bait a war? I suggest you try Lamiglass and Reddington.  And I strongly recommend you try and build from a blank.  It’s worth the time and money saved, just like tying. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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…I’m looking for a new rod to replace the old glass Fenwick I’ve fished for 15+ years, but I don’t want to shell out $300.  Or even $200.  Less than $100 would be great… Check out the St. Croix Imperial graphite. They list for $120, which includes a rod case, and lifetime guarantee. I just bought one (a 9′ 4/5wt); cast it and a Diamondback side by side, and thought the St. Croix was better.  They also make a Pro series, that costs less, but for the performance, the Imperial is a better buy. CQ

THIS IS GOOD news to hear, for me. — George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s World’s Best Fly Fishing Products Asotin, WA 99402 509-243-4100  FAX 4644

Response:

Derek I own three Lamiglass rods that have served me well for quite a long time. Cabelas carried them as recently as last year for under $100 but I don’t see them is this year’s catalog. They may still have some if you call them. Some flyshops may have a few left as well. Also, you might consider building your own rod. You can control the parts of it that are most important to you but still keep the cost down. You don’t really need, IMHO, the expensive wrapping platforms etc. Dave

I allways thought the best inexpensive rod was the one you could afford to buy.

Response:

After reading this group for a couple of years it has become clear that a lot of people either have much more disposable income than I do, or that my priorities are skewed somehow.  At any rate, I’m looking for a new rod to replace the old glass Fenwick I’ve fished for 15+ years, -Derek

Hi Derek Most fly shops have rental equipment and often sell that equipment a the end of the season. Check with a few and see if you can’t get a bargain. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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Derek I own three Lamiglass rods that have served me well for quite a long time. Cabelas carried them as recently as last year for under $100 but I don’t see them is this year’s catalog. They may still have some if you call them. Some flyshops may have a few left as well. Also, you might consider building your own rod. You can control the parts of it that are most important to you but still keep the cost down. You don’t really need, IMHO, the expensive wrapping platforms etc. Dave

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Derek, I am in the same boat as you financially. The kids, house, dogs, make it tough to shell out $300 on a rod. I have a post on this board about the Cabela’s Fish Eagle Traditional rod, 8′6" 6wt for $96. We’ll see what the response is. There’s a brand out there called Hi-Tech (HT) that are supposed to be good rods at great prices, but I can’t find any retail outlets that stock them.  

You can afford a dog!?!?!?  You lucky so and so.  Had to eat ours last year!  This year we had to rent a used turkey for christmas!  Bloody luxury. Mike

Response:

Want I want is simple, an 8.5′ 5wt rod that will cast well enough to keep me happy and won’t fall apart.

The St. Croix Pro Graphite rods have gotten very good reviews, I often hear them being called the best value in fly fishing. I think cost $75 or so. St. Croix Imperials and Redington Red Start rods are also supposed to be nice, they cost between $100 and $150. Test cast them all and let me know how it comes out! Tight lines, Tom Chandler Tom Chandler   "When in doubt, have two guys come through the door with guns."                                               –Raymond Chandler

Response:

…I’m looking for a new rod to replace the old glass Fenwick I’ve fished for 15+ years, but I don’t want to shell out $300.  Or even $200.  Less than $100 would be great…

Check out the St. Croix Imperial graphite.   They list for $120, which includes a rod case, and lifetime guarantee. I just bought one (a 9′ 4/5wt); cast it and a Diamondback side by side, and thought the St. Croix was better.  They also make a Pro series, that costs less, but for the performance, the Imperial is a better buy. CQ

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Hi Derek- Have you considered buying a used rod? There are several sites on the internet that have "classified" areas where people sell used stuff at much lower prices than new. The virtual flyshop has one such area, but there are others. I recently bought a used tying vise and sold my old one in this way. You may be able to pick up a $300 rod for $100. Check it out. Good luck! Steve Rosenblum

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Want I want is simple, an 8.5′ 5wt rod that will cast well enough to keep me happy and won’t fall apart……entry-level Orvis outfit (Clearwater 865) looks okay, but is there anything else to compare in the $100 price range?  While home over the holidays I looked at some new rods "made" by an outfit called Northwest-X or somesuch in Lake Oswego, Oregon– they were at GI Joes, about $80 for a 5wt 8.5".  Didn’t cast one though.  Anyone familar with that line? Thanks for any tips– please post responses rather than email so all can comment. -Derek —

Greetings Derek:         I just started flyfishing about a year ago, so take my advice with a grain of salt.  I started out with a 2-piece 5wt, 8.5ft, that I got as a package deal from LL Bean.  I more recently purchased a 4-piece, 4wt, 7.5ft travel rod from them as well.  The 5wt ran me $200, reel and all; the 4wt, $110, reel, case and all.  Bean also sells the rod and reel set they use in teaching their classes, for a reasonable price (in the $100-150 range). They may not be the greatest rods, given other people’s comments at this site, but you can get a medium or fast-ish action rod from them, that are all lifetime guaranteed.  I have really enjoyed my two rods, and they certainly got me out and fishing with a minimum investment.  Hope this helps you out. Dan Johnson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Derek R. Larson           Indiana University       Department of History   "Eastward I go by force, but Westward I go free!"  -H. D. Thoreau

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Check out the Cabela’s catalog, their own are pretty good, as are the St Croix’s and Reddingtons, but in that 8′6" range don’t count out the inexpensive Pfluger (also in the catalog)  Call them if you don’t have the current FF catalog 1/800-237-4444 I am not related in any way to them, but at the low end of the price spectrum, where I started, they have yet to disappoint me.  All of their house brand equip and gear has served me well. jg

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Derek, I am in the same boat as you financially. The kids, house, dogs, make it tough to shell out $300 on a rod. I have a post on this board about the Cabela’s Fish Eagle Traditional rod, 8′6" 6wt for $96. We’ll see what the response is. There’s a brand out there called Hi-Tech (HT) that are supposed to be good rods at great prices, but I can’t find any retail outlets that stock them.  

Response:

Want I want is simple, an 8.5′ 5wt rod that will cast well enough to keep me happy and won’t fall apart.

Under $100, consider the Cortland GRF-1000.  Under $200, consider the Sage Discovery (Model 580 DS).  Doubtless there are other good choices too.  Try to actually cast the rod before buying it, to ensure that you’ll be happy with its performance. Woods Hole, MA   USA

Response:

After reading this group for a couple of years it has become clear that a lot of people either have much more disposable income than I do, or that my priorities are skewed somehow.  At any rate, I’m looking for a new rod to replace the old glass Fenwick I’ve fished for 15+ years, but I don’t want to shell out $300.  Or even $200.  Less than $100 would be great– I don’t get to fish nearly as much in Indiana as I did growing up in Oregon (all my steelhead gear, all my packable trout gear, etc. etc. is still out there collecting dust).   Want I want is simple, an 8.5′ 5wt rod that will cast well enough to keep me happy and won’t fall apart.  My wife has a Cabella’s rod (the Sweetwater?) that was given to her as a gift; it’s not great, but I often use it rather than the 8wt. Fenwick I brought out here with me.  The stores around here either sell junk (Eagle Claw, Pflueger) or G. Loomis, so it may have to be mail order. The entry-level Orvis outfit (Clearwater 865) looks okay, but is there anything else to compare in the $100 price range?  While home over the holidays I looked at some new rods "made" by an outfit called Northwest-X or somesuch in Lake Oswego, Oregon– they were at GI Joes, about $80 for a 5wt 8.5".  Didn’t cast one though.  Anyone familar with that line? Thanks for any tips– please post responses rather than email so all can comment. -Derek — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University       Department of History   "Eastward I go by force, but Westward I go free!"  -H. D. Thoreau

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Question:

After reading all the posts about upland bird hunting and grouse stocking in the ff’er group, it got me to thinking (Hmmm… thought I smelled wood burning!) about the proper shotgun for trout.

An English side-by-side with a splinter fore end and a straight stock, only, and *only* over a pointing dog.   Waxing my Barbour coat and waiting for a call from my broker, David

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: Say! what about going after grouse with a 6 weight rod?  I have heard about : people catching pigeons with a threaded piece of dried corn. Time to re-hash the stories about bat-casting….

i always practice C&R on them…and ouzels…not much meat on a bat, but the wings (I’ve heard) make excellent jerky. TimW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After reading all the posts about upland bird hunting and grouse stocking in the ff’er group, it got me to thinking (Hmmm… thought I smelled wood burning!) about the proper shotgun for trout. It would seem to me that you might want to go with variable chokes depending on if trout were feeding on the surface or not. The AR folks could always practice blast and release. Say! what about going after grouse with a 6 weight rod?  I have heard about people catching pigeons with a threaded piece of dried corn. Regards, Frank. Self appointed treasurer of the Mountain Home Benevolent Trout Fishers Assosciation. Motto:  Your dues are due. P.S.  I’m going nuts.  I haven’t been able to fish for awhile, and if I don’t soak my lower half in some cold water soon, I’m done for.

Hi Frank I’ve got some yellow Brazilian Velour that should make a great corn fly. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog)

Response:

After reading all the posts about upland bird hunting and grouse stocking in the ff’er group, it got me to thinking (Hmmm… thought I smelled wood burning!) about the proper shotgun for trout. It would seem to me that you might want to go with variable chokes depending on if trout were feeding on the surface or not. The AR folks could always practice blast and release. Say! what about going after grouse with a 6 weight rod?  I have heard about people catching pigeons with a threaded piece of dried corn. Regards, Frank. Self appointed treasurer of the Mountain Home Benevolent Trout Fishers Assosciation. Motto:  Your dues are due. P.S.  I’m going nuts.  I haven’t been able to fish for awhile, and if I don’t soak my lower half in some cold water soon, I’m done for.

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I have just gone through a bunch of older fly rods and decided that I’d like to try them again. Unfortunately, they do not have any markings on them as to line weight. The rods are fiber glass and thus old enough not to have the AFTMA or older ABCDEFGH marking, so it probably will have to be trial and error before I get lines to work properly. Does anyone have suggestions as to how I can get the correct line weights without having to buy a whole bunch of lines? I remember using the rods 25 years ago and enjoying them, so I don’t just want to discard them for my current tackle. There is a 7′, 8′, and an 8 1/2′. The little one seems to overload with a 7weight and the longer rods appear not to load properly with the 7wt.        Frank —

Question:

The Catskill Flyfishing Center and Museum opened a new building a few months ago. They have something going on almost every weekend. Give em your support. Phone 914-439-4810 for more info. Regards,

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Yes.  They have a beautiful new museum building which opened in November….I was there Saturday for their annual flea market.  It’s really a great spot to visit now….don’t miss it. Mike Coon Phoenicia, NY – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The Catskill Flyfishing Center and Museum opened a new building a few months ago. They have something going on almost every weekend. Give em your support. Phone 914-439-4810 for more info. Regards,

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I’m planning a trip down to Roscoe NY for the annual fly fishing flea market at the flyfishing museum.  Anybody been? Rick

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I’m planning a trip down to Roscoe NY for the annual fly fishing flea market at the flyfishing museum.  Anybody been?

No, when is it?  I’m heading down that way Sunday (8/20) evening to fish the Delaware and staying over a day.  I’m not sure which way is "down" for you but I’m heading there from Ithaca. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems  Ithaca, NY

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On Saturday 8/26 there will be a fly-fishing flea market in Roscoe itself. See you there. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Richard Nathan) writes: I’m planning a trip down to Roscoe NY for the annual fly fishing flea market at the flyfishing museum.  Anybody been? No, when is it?  I’m heading down that way Sunday (8/20) evening to fish the Delaware and staying over a day.  I’m not sure which way is "down" for you but I’m heading there from Ithaca. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems  Ithaca, NY

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On Saturday 8/26 there will be a fly-fishing flea market in Roscoe itself. See you there.

Is this an annual thing? —

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Question:

My family will be visiting the Tacoma/Olympia area at the beginning of August, and I would like fish streams within a couple of hours drive. Does anyone have some recommendations? thx….. Bob

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My family will be visiting the Tacoma/Olympia area at the beginning of August, and I would like fish streams within a couple of hours drive. Does anyone have some recommendations?

I’d hit the road north and run up along the east-side of the Olympic Pennisula to Lilliwaup, and visit the Hama Hama River for some sea-run cutt’s… <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <           "Read this and nobody gets hurt"           < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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Youll have so much fishing within two hours you wont know what to do:  to the west – all the famous Olympic Peninsula streams for steelhead; plus the Elwha for trout (near Port angeles); to the south, youll have the cowlitz, Kalama and other famous steelhead and salmon rivers (plus some trout); to the north (if you want to drive through seattle) youll have the Green, Skykomish and Stilly; to the east, you have mtn lakes, marginal trout streams and youre abnout 2 hours from the Yakima River, the states best fly fishing river….  Not to mention the Puget Sound salt water where people fly fish quite a bit, including from shore for salmon, cutts and snags. Have fun, Andy Taylor Pocatello, Idaho

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Question:

I have an upcoming business trip to Ann Arbor, MI (May 22-26) and am wondering whether to bring the rod…..   Can anybody on the net suggest some nice trout waters within a 2 hours radius of Ann Arbor?  (Thanks, but the Au Sable is too far away, some other time perhaps) Perhaps also a Ann Arbor fly shop? If I get some suggestions, I’d stay an extra day…. Please email, thanks, -PWM Nat’l Center for Atmos Research    voice:  (303) 497-1293 Scientific Computing Division     Consulting Office

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Fly-sishing for trout is out if you are looking to fish in a two hour radius of Ann Arbor.   If you want to fly-fish for Bass in the huron River, call MacGregor’s out doors on Mainstreet (an Orvis shop) and ask for Mac Richardson. He and his son know where to fish for small mouth on the Huron.   GaryLarry

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