Question:

i-81, north of syracuse, turn right…  hmmm, sounds like another snipe hunt…  but, after participating in a few hundred of them, i’m still tryin to get the hang of it.  so, pencil me in. jeff (more simpler) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’ve never fished naw yuk… so, plug me in as a definite maybe… but 2 days might not be ’nuff.  …um, how do you get to allmur? It couldn’t be more simple.   If’n you can get to I-81 anywhere between Tennessee & New York, you’ve got it licked.   If you’re starting out in the I-95 corridor, pick the east/west interstate of your choice.   Once you’re on I-81, stay on it until about 35 miles north of Syracure and turn right. At that point, you’re as good as there. Joe F.

Response:

you got a cah? …i got a truk.  …but, if a truk will do, where is altmar? jeff Find Lake Ontario on a map of NY. Can’t miss it. Look for the big blue thing in the upper left.

FYI.   I think that this year was one of the best I have had in many years, I spent a total of about 4-5 weeks on and off,  fishing there. I have been fishing the Salmon River for over 18 years.  The Salmon run started the first week in September, and my last trip finished up Sunday November 10th.   To my amazement the Kings were still running into the river, and I found that most were still in excellent shape. Finished up the last day with a catch of 3 browns, ranging between 7-10lbs., one Steelhead rather small and several Kings.  All were released.   Arty PS, only broke one fly rod this season. Art(Arty)Santella

Response:

Unbelievably, it’s time to start considering whether or not you’re interested in a repeat (and hopefully, an improvement) on the 2002 Salmon River mini-clave.   In 2003, we will not be staying at Malinda’s, only because she is already booked up for every weekend through October 19 (as is the Portly Angler and Whitaker’s). Rather than push the dates back and risk missing too much of the prime run, Craig & I have found another lodge that promises better accommodations than Malinda’s (I know, "How is that possible?" you ask.) and that actually has rooms available for the earlier weekend. So – if you are thinking you might want to book a room at clave central next year, October 16-19, 2003, email me & I’ll give you the location.   Or, if there’s enough tentative interest at this early date, I’ll just book a second (or third?) room as I did last year. Joe F.

Response:

So – if you are thinking you might want to book a room at clave central next year, October 16-19, 2003, email me & I’ll give you the location.   Or, if there’s enough tentative interest at this early date, I’ll just book a second (or third?) room as I did last year.

FYI:   I’ve received enough "maybes" that I went ahead and booked a 4-person efficiency at the "Fish Inn Post" (www.fishinnpost.com) in Altmar, NY for the nights of 10/16/03 through 10/18/03.   I will put down the deposit & hold this room for potential miniclavers.   I have never been to this lodge & can’t attest to anything about it, but how bad could it be, eh? That ought to cover it until next summer, I’d expect.   We’ll talk then. Joe F. p.s.   If anyone would like a recommendation for a good guide, I’d recommend Pat Miura (http://members.aol.com/pmiura/index.html).   I know he’s booked for Saturday, 10/18, but it’s not too early if you want to grab a different day.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So – if you are thinking you might want to book a room at clave central next year, October 16-19, 2003, email me & I’ll give you the location.   Or, if there’s enough tentative interest at this early date, I’ll just book a second (or third?) room as I did last year. FYI:   I’ve received enough "maybes" that I went ahead and booked a 4-person efficiency at the "Fish Inn Post" (www.fishinnpost.com) in Altmar, NY for the nights of 10/16/03 through 10/18/03.   I will put down the deposit & hold this room for potential miniclavers.   I have never been to this lodge & can’t attest to anything about it, but how bad could it be, eh? That ought to cover it until next summer, I’d expect.   We’ll talk then. Joe F. p.s.   If anyone would like a recommendation for a good guide, I’d recommend Pat Miura (http://members.aol.com/pmiura/index.html).   I know he’s booked for Saturday, 10/18, but it’s not too early if you want to grab a different day.

I’ve stayed here a fw times and it’s a step up from Malinda’s. Paul

Response:

i’ve never fished naw yuk… so, plug me in as a definite maybe… but 2 days might not be ’nuff.  …um, how do you get to allmur? jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FYI:   I’ve received enough "maybes" that I went ahead and booked a 4-person efficiency at the "Fish Inn Post" (www.fishinnpost.com) in Altmar, NY for the nights of 10/16/03 through 10/18/03.   I will put down the deposit & hold this room for potential miniclavers.   I have never been to this lodge & can’t attest to anything about it, but how bad could it be, eh?

Response:

i’ve never fished naw yuk… so, plug me in as a definite maybe… but 2 days might not be ’nuff.  …um, how do you get to allmur?

cah

Response:

you got a cah? …i got a truk.  …but, if a truk will do, where is altmar? jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’ve never fished naw yuk… so, plug me in as a definite maybe… but 2 days might not be ’nuff.  …um, how do you get to allmur? cah

Response:

you got a cah? …i got a truk.  …but, if a truk will do, where is altmar? jeff

Find Lake Ontario on a map of NY. Can’t miss it. Look for the big blue thing in the upper left. Altmar is about 10 miles east of the lake and about 5 miles east of Pulaski. Paul

Response:

i’ve never fished naw yuk… so, plug me in as a definite maybe… but 2 days might not be ’nuff.  …um, how do you get to allmur?

It couldn’t be more simple.   If’n you can get to I-81 anywhere between Tennessee & New York, you’ve got it licked.   If you’re starting out in the I-95 corridor, pick the east/west interstate of your choice.   Once you’re on I-81, stay on it until about 35 miles north of Syracure and turn right. At that point, you’re as good as there. Joe F.

Response:

Question:

<SNIP the eye, put marabou collars on them, and finished with a built-up epoxy head).   The fishhair stood up, but the marabou got creamed. What would be a good recipe for my needs and what would be a good collar substitute?  Thanks, Adam

Go to your local hardware store, have a  look at the synthetic cords.  They come in a whole range of colours, including fluorescents. When shredded and combed out, ( Use a wire brush),these make indestructible wings for flies. Use short bits for the collars. The stuff does not soak up water, and is easy to cast. TL MC

Response:

Going to fly fish for big peacock bass in the Amazon this October.  Problem is that you have to throw flies all day long, using anywhere from an 8 to a 10/11 wt. rod.  Now, the traditional flies are usually at least 6-8" long and damn wind resistant.  So you get the idea about having your arm replaced at the end of each day. Anyway, I’d like to make up a mess of 6" streamers that will have a nice profile, but yet be not too wind resistant.  One suggestion was to pattern them after Deceivers, but without feathers (as the peacocks will rip them up pronto).  I’m not the greatest tyer and I look to make the flies pretty much down and dirty.  These fish are so aggressive that one doesn’t need to be fancy with their tying.  So, I’d like some help with the type of materials to use that will give me the profile and yet be easy to throw.  Also, I would imagine that if one was to make a deceiver sans feathers, once again certain materials would be better than others.  For example, I’ve fish the peacock in Venezuela (fish went up to 17#), and made relatively thin streamers out of fishhair or bozo hair (just tied on several different colors behind the eye, put marabou collars on them, and finished with a built-up epoxy head).   The fishhair stood up, but the marabou got creamed. What would be a good recipe for my needs and what would be a good collar substitute?  Thanks, Adam

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re missing something. A float tube in many states is considered a boat. And CG regulations require you to have a personal flotation device handy on the boat. When float tubes go bad, they often dont’ just leak a little, they deflate quickly. Every year it seems, at least one person dies because his float tube deflates and he/she panics and gets stuck getting out of it or can not swim. Or back home in the southeast, float tubes are a favorite way to fish the tailwaters, and it is not difficult to get careless and upended on moving waters, especially during unscheduled releases.. As long as you’re not stuck under a rock or a log, the floatation device will at least bring you back to the surface. Wayne Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the point of wearing a life vest in a float tube. A float tube by definition floats, doesn’t it? If you fall out, can’t you just hang on to it?

Wayne makes some additional good points r.w. George

  george.vcf

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Response:

You’re missing something.

Well, I’m not going to start wearing a life jacket in my float tube. I can always rely on the whistle I had to buy in Yellowstone if I get in trouble. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Well, I’m not going to start wearing a life jacket in my float tube. I can always rely on the whistle I had to buy in Yellowstone if I get in trouble.

Or maybe someone will happen by with 100 wine corks. <g — Charlie…

Response:

Anyhow r.w. I bought a couple of those minature, under the vest life-vests and I don’t go wading in water over my head without one on.

        it’s statements like that one that make me question whether or not we could exist without you, george.         really, though, i thought you could simply walk on top of water over your head. wayno

Response:

Well, I’m not going to start wearing a life jacket in my float tube. I can always rely on the whistle I had to buy in Yellowstone if I get in trouble. Or maybe someone will happen by with 100 wine corks. <g

Won’t be necessary.  The little ball inside the whistle is made from cork. Given the well known crowding on Yellowstone waters, it should be obvious that a single toot on the whistle would cause everyone in the immediate area to hurl his or her own whistle at the poor unfortunate, thus providing enough little cork balls to float even the densest ROFFian until the appropriate rescue personnel arrive on the scene. Wolfgang ya gotta love that sense of selfless cooperation

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I’m not going to start wearing a life jacket in my float tube. I can always rely on the whistle I had to buy in Yellowstone if I get in trouble. Or maybe someone will happen by with 100 wine corks. <g Won’t be necessary.  The little ball inside the whistle is made from cork. Given the well known crowding on Yellowstone waters, it should be obvious that a single toot on the whistle would cause everyone in the immediate area to hurl his or her own whistle at the poor unfortunate, thus providing enough little cork balls to float even the densest ROFFian until the appropriate rescue personnel arrive on the scene. Wolfgang ya gotta love that sense of selfless cooperation

Some people have been known to drown, while others were wetting their whistles. TL MC

Response:

As long as you’re not stuck under a rock or a log, the floatation device will at least bring you back to the surface.

…so your next of kin can claim the body before it gets all yucky.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

Well, I’m not going to start wearing a life jacket in my float tube. I can always rely on the whistle I had to buy in Yellowstone if I get in trouble. Or maybe someone will happen by with 100 wine corks. <g

Man, have you guys got the wrong theory on this…pull the cork, drink the wine, put the cork back in the bottle, and then toss him both. You’d not need anywhere near 100 – I’d bet that the cork AND the bottle offer more flotation than just the cork, and that way, everyone is happy…. TC, R

Response:

rw  wrote Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the point of wearing a life vest in a float tube. A float tube by definition floats, doesn’t it? If you fall out, can’t you just hang on to it?

I think it’s pretty clear that if you only have one floatation device, in this case, your tube, and it fails… you’re sunk. I recommend one of the auto inflatable life vests as a back up…they have a little ‘panic’ cord that causes the vest to inflate immediatly from a CO2 cartridge.  I understand they have these in models that are basically like suspenders until you need them.  I’m not sure how bulky these are.  Personally, I use an auto inflatable that packs nicely into a pouch approx 10"x6"x2" that easily fits into one of the large storage pockets on my tube.  I would strongly recommend such a device to anyone, especially those who still use a donut style tube. Another word to the wise regarding donut tubes.  Have you ever figured out what you’d do if you fell over in shallow water as you are stepping out of your tube? It’s a good idea to think, in advance, about what you’d do in this situation.  I have heard that some people have drowned just this way. Personally, I use a U-boat that’s got a styrofoam block as a seat.  The latter will float me even if the tube completely deflates.  Given the fact that I wear neoprene waders, and I still keep my auto-inflatable vest in a storage pocket, I feel pretty unsinkable.  (By the way, I keep a whistle too) (Just my luck, I’ll still figure a way to drown myself even with all that back-up!) FiddleAway

Response:

Oh boy BJC.  If ever there was a river to have a Personal Floatation Device, I would think the Deschutes just about rates right up there.  The least someone should do is put a small bottle of Gehrke’s Fly Floatation Device in their vest.  At the last second, they can smear it on their face giving them a chance for a couple of last breaths and casts?

Oh man…if a whole bottle were to fall in a river…man…I shudder. That would have drastic consequences. Iimagine the whole river floating…higher and higher all the way to the jetstream where it flows ethereal and winds its way back to the dream. By the way?  Do you need a free hat B.C.?

Yes, I was thinking it should say…. "Get some Ginkee on your Fingee" Your pal, — The Halfordian Golfer The deceipt ends with the lure.

Response:

Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the point of wearing a life vest in a float tube. A float tube by definition floats, doesn’t it? If you fall out, can’t you just hang on to it? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – rw  wrote Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the point of wearing a life vest in a float tube. A float tube by definition floats, doesn’t it? If you fall out, can’t you just hang on to it? I think it’s pretty clear that if you only have one floatation device, in this case, your tube, and it fails… you’re sunk. I can swim. In fact, I can swim pretty well. If I couldn’t swim I probably wouldn’t use a float tube. Life in a series of tradeoffs. I think my chance of a catastrophic float-tube failure, leaving me somewhere from which I couldn’t swim to shore, is pretty remote. That chance doesn’t (in my opinion) merit me using a life vest. I’ll roll those dice, and if they come up snake eyes so be it.

Actually, I was addressing your original statement which was that you do not see the point of wearing a vest.  Actually,  I think you knew in advance why most people have backup floatation devices, but you wanted to make your fatalistic point about snake eyes. I see your point, and I can respect your attitude.  In fact, if having backup weren’t so easy, low hassle, and inexpensive, I might even cop it myself. But, flotation backup is easy and cheap and death by drowning really gives me the creeps.  So as long as I can imagine realistic situations (and I can), though unlikely, where having backup would save my life (when not having them would not), I’ll take it. That is the point for me and I suspect that’s the point for most people (which, as I said, I think you knew already, right?) FiddleAway

Response:

Actually, I was addressing your original statement which was that you do not see the point of wearing a vest.  Actually,  I think you knew in advance why most people have backup floatation devices, but you wanted to make your fatalistic point about snake eyes.

I didn’t mean to imply that someone who wears a life vest or a "backup floatation device" is stupid. I’m sorry if it came across that way. It’s just that in my personal experience I haven’t felt the need for one. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

rw wrote Actually, I was addressing your original statement which was that you do not see the point of wearing a vest.  Actually,  I think you knew in advance why most people have backup floatation devices, but you wanted to make your fatalistic point about snake eyes. I didn’t mean to imply that someone who wears a life vest or a "backup floatation device" is stupid. I’m sorry if it came across that way. It’s just that in my personal experience I haven’t felt the need for one.

Er, well, I didn’t mean to imply that you meant to imply that… Actually I thought your subtext was more along the lines of …the less you worry about unlikely things, the more you enjoy whatever it is you’re doing … or something like that. Which happens to be a sentiment I agree with … still, we all have our own comfort level. FiddleAway

Response:

You’re missing something. A float tube in many states is considered a boat. And CG regulations require you to have a personal flotation device handy on the boat. When float tubes go bad, they often dont’ just leak a little, they deflate quickly. Every year it seems, at least one person dies because his float tube deflates and he/she panics and gets stuck getting out of it or can not swim. Or back home in the southeast, float tubes are a favorite way to fish the tailwaters, and it is not difficult to get careless and upended on moving waters, especially during unscheduled releases.. As long as you’re not stuck under a rock or a log, the floatation device will at least bring you back to the surface. Wayne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the point of wearing a life vest in a float tube. A float tube by definition floats, doesn’t it? If you fall out, can’t you just hang on to it? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Isn’t the backrest in your tube inflateable? Isn’t it in all of them? If so, then there is a floatation device right there. Ok, so it’s not CG approved, BFD. Darin

Response:

rw  wrote Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the point of wearing a life vest in a float tube. A float tube by definition floats, doesn’t it? If you fall out, can’t you just hang on to it? I think it’s pretty clear that if you only have one floatation device, in this case, your tube, and it fails… you’re sunk.

I can swim. In fact, I can swim pretty well. If I couldn’t swim I probably wouldn’t use a float tube. Life in a series of tradeoffs. I think my chance of a catastrophic float-tube failure, leaving me somewhere from which I couldn’t swim to shore, is pretty remote. That chance doesn’t (in my opinion) merit me using a life vest. I’ll roll those dice, and if they come up snake eyes so be it. Maybe if I were float tubing in the middle of the Great Slave Lake I’d feel differently. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Maine now requires that you carry, not necessarily wear, a USCG approved floatation device when fishing from a tube as they do with any type of boat and/or personal watercraft. I’ve taken to dragging one of those cheapie orange wall mart vests behind my tube since wearing it would be a pain in the ass. I’ve looked at the inflatable SOS-penders and the like and will probably one day get one since I’m not the swimteam type anymore Flyfish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the point of wearing a life vest in a float tube. A float tube by definition floats, doesn’t it? If you fall out, can’t you just hang on to it? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Not necessarily r.w.  Cold water temperatures lower the body tempertures which tends to make the blood want to congeal which could result in a heart attack.  One should always have a back up floatation device and it is also a good idea to take asprin the night before to help thin the blood.  Asprin for older folks, each day is a good idea anyhow, if your doctor okays it for you. Float tube do go flat in the middle of a lake for no good reason at all.  We should remember that tire tubes get punctured or spring leaks.  Most systems are two chambered R.W. and all you need is one side to go flat on you and you’re leaning sideways and over you go. Often, in float tubes of various models, the user may fall into the water or need to get out of the floatation tube for various reasons.  The worst thing anyone can do once in the water is to hold onto the fly rod.  Unless someone is close enough to let them reach your butt section to drag you out or towards them, let the damned thing go.  Fly rods are expendable but you’re not. Anyhow r.w. I bought a couple of those minature, under the vest life-vests and I don’t go wading in water over my head without one on.  I also don’t go tubing or floating anywhere without wearing one.  So the smart option is to always make a back up floatation device part of your main system.  Be a ground hog, have a back door escape route  planned or ready in case you may need it. Trying to swim with fly fishing thermo clothing, waders, flippers, vests, heavy coats, etc. on is not the same as trying to swim in a warm pool with just trunks on. (Or skinny dipping)  Another factor is does the tuber smoke?  Frailing around in ice cold lake water and worse yet, spring fed ponds with little or no good lung power doesn’t assure enough energy to reach shore.  I know of one gentleman who was paddled himself right into a sharp stick that was just an inch under the water.  Put a hole the size of a baseball into his tube and he sunk in seconds!  If I wasn’t there, he would have drowned. Get one of those little CO2 life vests r.w.  It’s wonderful life insurance. George Gehrke – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the point of wearing a life vest in a float tube. A float tube by definition floats, doesn’t it? If you fall out, can’t you just hang on to it? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

  george.vcf

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Response:

Last I heard, here in Washington a float tube was considered a swim toy, therefore no PFD required. Darin

Response:

If you are in the deschutes in your pontoon boat you have to have a PFD,  a trip permit and a container for waste ( that more that just candy bar wrappers ).  I have heard from some people that it applies to float tubes also but have not had a chance to talk to the ODFG yet. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never wear a life vest when I am in my float tube

Response:

Oh boy BJC.  If ever there was a river to have a Personal Floatation Device, I would think the Deschutes just about rates right up there.  The least someone should do is put a small bottle of Gehrke’s Fly Floatation Device in their vest.  At the last second, they can smear it on their face giving them a chance for a couple of last breaths and casts?  By the way?  Do you need a free hat B.C.? ;  } – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are in the deschutes in your pontoon boat you have to have a PFD,  a trip permit and a container for waste ( that more that just candy bar wrappers ).  I have heard from some people that it applies to float tubes also but have not had a chance to talk to the ODFG yet. I never wear a life vest when I am in my float tube

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

I wouldn;t use a tube without a life vest system of some sort. I use a floater vest, made by mustang. It is inflatable, fits just like a fishing vest, is waterproof, and has a CO2 cartridge for inflation. Also has a mouth tube. Catsing is no problem, even when I weighed 250 lbs. Tim Lysyk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never wear a life vest when I am in my float tube.  The reason, of course, is that you can’t cast with a life vest on over my 225 pounds of body.  I saw an article that discussed flooding your waders to see what happens.  At least with neoprene, you float and in fact it is hard to keep your feet down, even when it is completely filled with water.  Since I use neoprene, exclusively, in my float tube that was an encouraging article.  However, there are the fish & game folks out, very rarely, but sometimes and I don’t want a ticket and I don’t want to wear a life vest.  I looked at the inflatable suspenders thingies ($75 a pair and coast guard approved), and they are a bother to cast around also (I tried them on at the fly shop, stepped outside with one of their rods and was not pleased, especially while I was sitting).  My float tube, The Woodriver Gliderider, comes with a floatation cushion and it puts me too high up in the seat of my tube and I also lose some of the pinch effect of the pontoons that hold me in (besides the law is that I have to be ‘wearing’ the floatation device.  I feel safe in my neoprenes; even if  I have to swim in them (the article goes on to say that it was not much of a challenge to swim in waders, a little awkward, but not much).  Also, my float tube has separate chambers for safety and I think that is good as well.  I realize that there is an available safety inflatable cushion that you can put in a pocket, but the current law requires the angler to be WEARING the floatation device. What the hell do you guys, who use float tubes, do? Padishar Creel – Don’t mind the whistle part of the law, makes good sense…

Response:

I know that you did not like them, but I use the SOSpenders.  I weigh a little more than you so it can be done.  I find that in either the pontoon or tube I can cast while wearing them.  As I’m a lousy swimmer, I sometimes wear them if I fish alone on the Deschutes.  In Oregon, I think the law is to have one available in a floating device, but not specifically to be wearing it.  That allows those hip pack inflatables to be used if they are Coast Guard approved. On swimming, here is a link on swimming in waders.  It also shows the application of a hip pack inflatable. http://www.westernflyfisher.com/index.asp?i=0101p25v5&t=1 ra kane at gte dot net "BassCreel" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never wear a life vest when I am in my float tube.  The reason, of course, is that you can’t cast with a life vest on over my 225 pounds of body.  I saw an article that discussed flooding your waders to see what happens.  At least with neoprene, you float and in fact it is hard to keep your feet down, even when it is completely filled with water.  Since I use neoprene, exclusively, in my float tube that was an encouraging article.  However, there are the fish & game folks out, very rarely, but sometimes and I don’t want a ticket and I don’t want to wear a life vest.  I looked at the inflatable suspenders thingies ($75 a pair and coast guard approved), and they are a bother to cast around also (I tried them on at the fly shop, stepped outside with one of their rods and was not pleased, especially while I was sitting).  My float tube, The Woodriver Gliderider, comes with a floatation cushion and it puts me too high up in the seat of my tube and I also lose some of the pinch effect of the pontoons that hold me in (besides the law is that I have to be ‘wearing’ the floatation device.  I feel safe in my neoprenes; even if  I have to swim in them (the article goes on to say that it was not much of a challenge to swim in waders, a little awkward, but not much).  Also, my float tube has separate chambers for safety and I think that is good as well.  I realize that there is an available safety inflatable cushion that you can put in a pocket, but the current law requires the angler to be WEARING the floatation device. What the hell do you guys, who use float tubes, do? Padishar Creel – Don’t mind the whistle part of the law, makes good sense…

Response:

I never wear a life vest when I am in my float tube.  The reason, of course, is that you can’t cast with a life vest on over my 225 pounds of body.  I saw an article that discussed flooding your waders to see what happens.  At least with neoprene, you float and in fact it is hard to keep your feet down, even when it is completely filled with water.  Since I use neoprene, exclusively, in my float tube that was an encouraging article.  However, there are the fish & game folks out, very rarely, but sometimes and I don’t want a ticket and I don’t want to wear a life vest.  I looked at the inflatable suspenders thingies ($75 a pair and coast guard approved), and they are a bother to cast around also (I tried them on at the fly shop, stepped outside with one of their rods and was not pleased, especially while I was sitting).  My float tube, The Woodriver Gliderider, comes with a floatation cushion and it puts me too high up in the seat of my tube and I also lose some of the pinch effect of the pontoons that hold me in (besides the law is that I have to be ‘wearing’ the floatation device.  I feel safe in my neoprenes; even if  I have to swim in them (the article goes on to say that it was not much of a challenge to swim in waders, a little awkward, but not much).  Also, my float tube has separate chambers for safety and I think that is good as well.  I realize that there is an available safety inflatable cushion that you can put in a pocket, but the current law requires the angler to be WEARING the floatation device. What the hell do you guys, who use float tubes, do? Padishar Creel – Don’t mind the whistle part of the law, makes good sense…

Response:

Question:

But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-)

I fly a 7AC, but not in IMC.

Response:

Many responses to your question have been good and logical, but don’t consider the confusion and disorientation that can come with suddenly seeing indications on the instruments that don’t make sense or don’t agree with what you expected.

I was hoping you’d pipe in here.  It was my confusion in a holding pattern up there with you that got me searching for some way to call time out–or the closest thing I can get to that.  That’s probably why you were able to address the question so poignantly despite me not knowing how to ask it. Anyway, thanks.  You da man. — Jim

Response:

7ECA…. Yours is cooler though (Champ, right?) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-) I fly a 7AC, but not in IMC.

Response:

Makes sense to me – but best laid plans are sometimes difficult to follow in the soup. Flying the missed assumes situational awareness.Yes, I could have done my best guess as per the DG – but that would have meant a lot more figuring things out. Seemed prudent to talk to ATC and get back on track. Having said that, the missed was close to coming into play, so your scenario would have been the next step.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, I am relatively new to IFR, but I am confused why this would be a problem. Even if all your radios and navs spin around and spit pea soup, you have a heading, and even having the DG go out leaves you with compass heading. If things go seriously wrong, I would hopefully remember the heading, stop the drop if on approach, and go missed if required. It seems to me the neat thing about a missed is you can do that with a heading only if required. I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful. — True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

You probably won’t need to ask.  If you’re operating in a radar environment, your first indication that there’s a significant difference between where you’re heading and where you should be heading will likely be a query from the controller.

I can attest to that.  When I had my DG failure in IMC, the first hint I had that anything was wrong was a "say heading?" query from NY Approach. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost.

Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

Good point, and a good reminder. -Ryan Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost. Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

– Ryan Ferguson Pitts S-2C N312PS Twin Comanche 8259Y My flying pictures are at: http://www.fergworld.com

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost. Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you.

But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-) Matt

Response:

On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain. The probably with this is then you might eat an airliner.

Given a choice between a possible CFIT and a possible mid-air, I’ll risk the mid-air any day.  Not only are the mountains bigger targets than the airliners, they also don’t have TCAS. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

<snip of exactly the type of stuff I was looking for but wasn’t sure exactly how to ask–You, too, Ron Non-Critical emergency: An emergency such that no matter what action you

take, you will die. Snicker.  Filed in mental "quotable quotes" folder. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

As the other posters have pointed out, the ‘where’, ‘when’, and ‘how’ of lost is a big factor.   Assuming you have at least a NAV/AID available this simply shouldn’t happen at least in the big picture.   If you don’t have it sorted out soon (especially if you are on ‘own nav’) you better ask on the radio! Here’s something I used to do to sharpen my ‘where the hell am I’ skills… I would call up a regional map on my IFR sim (IFT Pro was great for this). Close my eyes and click the mouse to position my A/C on some unforseen random location and then start up the sim, plane in the air, IMC.  Since I new generally where I was (within a 100 miles) I’d start dialing up the VOR’s trying to fix my position.  Of course this is child’s play with a VOR/DME but get’s more challenging if you resign yourself to just the ADF or just the DME.  One of my instructors was so good about teaching VOR/CDI tricks (will this heading intercept the 245 radial?  How close to the station are you?) that getting lost with a working NAV/AID just doesn’t seem likely to me anymore.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Most of these issues rely on the principle that if you are headed accurately from a know position, then suddenly switching to a much less accurate form of navigation will result in a badly off position only given a lot of time. Ie., you know your heading, should have a good idea when your next fix eta is, you aren’t going to be far off even if murphy suddenly sticks you back into a dark cockpit with only a flashlight aimed at the compass and your watch. No matter what the situation, radio working or not, is to perform what you were cleared to do. Thats what you last knew, thats what they expect. Circling, doing something odd, whatever, its just going to make the situation worse, IMHO. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

– True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost.  The needles are pretty hard to misinterpret.  If you lose electrical you get on your handheld and start talking to ATC. Ryan http://www.fergworld.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

If I would unsure I would just ask.  It’s that ten second position check. "Center, Cessna 1234, verify that you who me 10 miles from Podunk VOR on the 120 radial." jerry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Whoops, should be you SHOW me 10 miles….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I would unsure I would just ask.  It’s that ten second position check. "Center, Cessna 1234, verify that you who me 10 miles from Podunk VOR on the 120 radial." jerry Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over?

ATC would probably not appreciate an unannounced circle and ascent. And, obviously, pulling over isn’t an option.  I’m guessing this is a troll question, but I’ll give it a serious answer anyway. I’ve never had this happen, but it if did, I’d immediately confess to ATC that I’d lost situational awareness and ask them where I was! Matt

Response:

What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?

You probably won’t need to ask.  If you’re operating in a radar environment, your first indication that there’s a significant difference between where you’re heading and where you should be heading will likely be a query from the controller. Immediately circle and ascend?

I suppose it depends where you are.  If you’re in Alaska and in uncontrolled airspace climbing probably won’t make your situation any worse.  In controlled airspace over Iowa it’s a different story. Call "time out" and pull over?

Are you flying a helicopter?  Beware of the traffic behind you.

Response:

On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain.

The probably with this is then you might eat an airliner. Bottom line is life is not good if you loss situational awareness. The penalty for not paying attention while flying in IMC can be death.  Serious stuff.

Response:

Again, I am relatively new to IFR, but I am confused why this would be a problem. Even if all your radios and navs spin around and spit pea soup, you have a heading, and even having the DG go out leaves you with compass heading. If things go seriously wrong, I would hopefully remember the heading, stop the drop if on approach, and go missed if required. It seems to me the neat thing about a missed is you can do that with a heading only if required. I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful.

– True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

Well, there are always those time/distance exercises you had to learn: go wandering off the airway while you’re lost so you can figure out how far it is to the next checkpoint. Personally, if I had a radio aid to use for that I would just fly to the radio aid and not give a dead rat how far away it is. Basically, lost in IMC is done the same way as lost in VMC: figure out your last know position, check your heading and time from there to approximate your current position, check it against radio aids. Maintain last assigned altitude and heading. Call for radar vectors. Climbing in circles is likely to induce vestibular problems, so don’t do that. If you’ve lost your electrics, backup radios and handheld GPS can be of some help. Again, check your last known position, use your heading and time to approximate where you are now. Check that against MEAs/MORAs. Climb in a straight line, if necessary, and follow IFR lost comm procedures. If you really haven’t got a clue and no help is available, consider other options. If you know you are near a coastline, for example, consider flying out over the ocean and gingerly descending until you can see the water, turn around and fly back to the coast. Use a deliberate offset so that you know you are coming in south, for example, of a known point on the coastline, then follow the coastline up to that point. If you are in a single engine plane in mountainous terrain, IMC at night, lost, and low on fuel, you have what is called a non-critical emergency. Critical emergency: An emergency such that if prompt action is not taken, you will die. Non-Critical emergency: An emergency such that no matter what action you take, you will die.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up!

Consider two kinds of lost.  One is being unable to accurately locate your position due to complete electrical failure or some such.  For that kind of case, I carry a handheld GPS in my flight bag (with spare batteries), and I turn it on every week or so for 30 minutes or so to let it update its almanac.  The unit is always kept where I can reach it and retrieve it without looking.  I also carry a handheld radio.  With this, I can find my lat/long quickly and can then dead reckon toward a letdown point, using the GPS occasionally to refine my navigation.  I have practiced this. The other kind of lost is a temporary loss of positional awareness during a busy instrument approach or even a hold.  Many responses to your question have been good and logical, but don’t consider the confusion and disorientation that can come with suddenly seeing indications on the instruments that don’t make sense or don’t agree with what you expected. This can lead to panic.  In some terrain you just can’t keep flying while you try to figure it out or wait for ATC to call you and ask what the hell is going on, you need to do something fast.  I have been developing the habit of defining my "lost" procedure before entering an approach.  It consists of a heading and an altitude, and I jot it down on my kneeboard and draw a square around it.  The heading is the final aproach course and the altitude is the MSA.  If I get "lost", meaning I have lost positional awareness of exactly where I am relative to the procedure and am confused, my default procedure is to climb like hell and turn to the FAC.  Then I can call ATC and ask for vectors for the missed if I’m still lost.  Not a perfect solution nor a universal one, but it is something, and seems to me to be better than doing nothing and flying into a mountain. This kind of "lost" results from a breakdown or interruption of the mental processes required to execute a procedure while keeping the "picture" in your mind.  If you suddenly "lose the picture", especially while in a maneuver, the resulting disorientation and confusion negates recovery procedures based on application of logical thought processes.  If you can stabilize your situation, such as by just flying a heading, the ability to think logically can return quickly, and then you can puzzle out the problem, but you don’t always have time to do that.  I have heard that this mental lapse of "losing the picture" happens to controllers also. I got "lost" in a hold once in IMC.  I was flying a MAHP with GPS, there was a hefty wind, I got a little off track flying inbound to the holding fix, and somehow misjudged when to start my turn.  When I rolled out of the turn, I couldn’t immediately make any sense of the indications and got confused. I was "lost" in the sense of not knowing where I was relative to the fix. Not good.  In a hold, my default is to fly the outbound heading. I think Jim’s question, which is similar to one posted by Mike Horowitz a while back, is a good one.  Especially for inexperienced instrument pilots, or insufficiently proficient ones, there will be times, however infrequent, when confusion sets in, and it is worthwhile to think through these things and try to come up with no-brain default actions that, while not perfect, are likely to be better than doing nothing. I’m sure some people are so cool and competent that they never get lost or never get confused or panicked when something goes wrong, and I envy them. I have been lost in IMC, in the second sense and on an approach, and it is about the scariest thing I could imagine.  When that happened, I realized that I had to have some simple no-brain procedure to do something if I temporarily lost my thinking power due to confusion.  Otherwise, I would do nothing for a while, perhaps too long. Stan Prevost

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over?

I’ve never been lost in IMC, but if I were, it would depend where I was flying.  If I was over Iowa at 5,000 I would tell the controller I was lost and get some help.  On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain. BTW, how lost is "lost"?  A mile off course?  A hundred miles?  You’re never totally lost, I mean, you know what state your in, right?  :) So you’ll have some basic info about the terrain.   If you get lost while having a total electrical failure you’re on your own, so you better not be lost.  If you are, then use your head and think about the weather and terrain.  Where is the VMC?  Where is the low terrain?  Around here, the lowest terrain is over the ocean.  If I had to get down and had no nav or com capability and widespread low IMC that I couldn’t climb on top of, I’d fly out over the ocean and descend until I was below the clouds, then scud run my way back to the coast.   Of course, with a handheld nav/com, a handheld GPS, extra batteries, etc. I doubt it would ever come to that.  A lot of things would have to break at the same time that the weather was at its absolute worst and I’d have to get lost on top of it all. There are a lot of little failure modes that they don’t necessarily teach you about when you’re training for the instrument rating.  But you learn enough to be able to use your head and make educated decisions when fate (or your own idiocy) throws you a curveball. –Ron

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

So long as my  navigation equipment is working, I won’t get lost in IMC. I worry about aircraft control, getting into a steep bank or something, but getting lost is not something that has ever come close to happening. IT is not impossible, if I was out of radio comm and lost my navigation both GPS and VOR (or out of range of VOR). But it’s not likely. Lots of other more likely things to worry about. So long as I am in radar contact and have radio contact, and have Gyros I am OK. Most important navigation equipment is a radio, IMHO. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Question:

BTW, just in case the OP fly fishes for trout but just assumed there aren’t any there, there are actually rainbow trout in the mountains in Kauai, at least when I was there about 8 years ago. Regards, Jeff

Response:

We’re going to Hawaii, first to Kauai, then to Mauai.  Interested in doing some inshore saltwater fly fishing.  Any charters that specialize in that on either of the islands?

Despite the nay-sayers you can find saltwater charters in Hawaii who provide fly fishing.  We’ve fly fished Kona with Capt. Gene Vander Hoek ("Sea Genie II"), trying bait and switch for spearfish and small blue marlin.  Gene’s charters have set 26 world records, mostly for light tackle and he fly fishes himself in Costa Rica, Panama and Mexico.  And Del Dykes in Kona also knows fly fishing, per Trey Combs books.  Can’t help you with Kauai or Maui (which are not as noted for fishing as Kona) but there are likely guys out there.  Try a good search engine like www.google.com … good luck. Bill

Response:

Fuck up the best line I had in decades!

The line didn’t allow itself to be fucked up<g. — Charlie…

Response:

*Book’em* not *Bookem’,* dammit!

I wasn’t commenting on the punctuation but the punch line (otherwise I would have mentioned the extra comma<g). — Charlie…

Response:

I caught it when I read your post! 41 years of *cool* down the drain!!  Shit, I’m so stupid.  I hate myself. Fuckin’ idiot.  First out of the startin’ blocks, and what do I do?  Fuck up the best line I had in decades! Opie  –That’s Mr. Dipshit to you buddy!–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *Book’em* not *Bookem’,* dammit! I wasn’t commenting on the punctuation but the punch line (otherwise I would have mentioned the extra comma<g). — Charlie…

Response:

We’re going to Hawaii, first to Kauai, then to Mauai.  Interested in doing some inshore saltwater fly fishing.  Any charters that specialize in that on either of the islands? Thanks, MB

Response:

We’re going to Hawaii, first to Kauai, then to Mauai.  Interested in doing some inshore saltwater fly fishing.  Any charters that specialize in that on either of the islands? Thanks, MB

Forget it. Hawaii is not the place for flyfishing. Enjoy its other attractions. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Bookem’, a guide, Dano! Opie  –That’s Mr. Opus McDopus to you buddy!–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re going to Hawaii, first to Kauai, then to Mauai.  Interested in doing some inshore saltwater fly fishing.  Any charters that specialize in that on either of the islands? Thanks, MB

Response:

Bookem’, a guide, Dano!

Awesome<g! — Charlie…

Response:

*Book’em* not *Bookem’,* dammit! Opie  –That’s Mr. Opus McDopus to you buddy!–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bookem’, a guide, Dano! Awesome<g! — Charlie…

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Question:

The real cowards of America today are two houses of government that need total replacement for allowing this fool occupy the highest office in this land.  Is there no way to stop this criminal and his hooligans?         of course, george:  capital punishment.  surely you have noticed that it has solved all our other problems. wayno

____  I’m on your side Wayne.  I’m not one of "those".  Preaching to the wrong dude.  How goes you and Anthony fly fishing? — — MrG/American Sportsman http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjun00.html  LATEST BAMBOO FACTS "the saga continues"

Response:

                           Tom Littleton

I would rather have the chaos of Buchanan than the stupidity of Bush or the traitorship of Gore.  At least Buchanan would have our southern borders shut down by now and there would be a real war against narcotics.  I’d be willing to try just four years with that gentleman. At least he has Presidential stature and a moral ethnic that would clean house.  I mean, CLEAN HOUSE!  That alone will take four years.  Need a shit kicker that has some brains and a strong will that, as you complained about, "Thinks for Himself!" — — MrG/American Sportsman http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjun00.html  LATEST BAMBOO FACTS "the saga continues"

Response:

What is "queer mongering?" Shawn,A Long Island Layabout

Response:

What is "queer mongering?" Shawn,A Long Island Layabout

I cetainly hope it’s not like fish mongering, but with queers. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Mr.G/American Sportsman wrote  Is there no way to stop this criminal and his hooligans? No.  Give it up. —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

Flypaint wrote What is "queer mongering?"

Mongering in an unconventional fashion? —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

What is "queer mongering?" Shawn,A Long Island Layabout

Ask G, I’m sure he’s an expert on the subject. — Charlie…

Response:

At least he has Presidential stature and a moral ethnic that would clean house.  I mean, CLEAN HOUSE! MrG/American Sportsman

So just which "ethnic" will Mr. Buchannan be using to clean his house ? I can’t imagine any "ethnic" wanting to work for a man with his views. Bob Smith Before you buy.

Response:

Bob Smith writes: At least he has Presidential stature and a moral ethnic that would clean house.  I mean, CLEAN HOUSE! MrG/American Sportsman So just which "ethnic" will Mr. Buchannan be using to clean his house ? I can’t imagine any "ethnic" wanting to work for a man with his views. Bob Smith

Come on, Bob.  It’s those "moral" ethnics as opposed to those immoral ones. <g Jo and I flew from D.C. to Boston on a Sunday morning a few years ago. Buchannan and his wife were the only other passengers in first class.  They sat directly opposite us.  Every time I looked at him, he was staring at my wife and then me.  I never spoke or gave any indication that I knew who he was. Probably pissed off the nazi bastard.  His wife seemed very nice, however. Dave LaCourse

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bob Smith writes: At least he has Presidential stature and a moral ethnic that would clean house.  I mean, CLEAN HOUSE! MrG/American Sportsman So just which "ethnic" will Mr. Buchannan be using to clean his house ? I can’t imagine any "ethnic" wanting to work for a man with his views. Bob Smith Come on, Bob.  It’s those "moral" ethnics as opposed to those immoral ones. <g Jo and I flew from D.C. to Boston on a Sunday morning a few years ago. Buchannan and his wife were the only other passengers in first class.  They sat directly opposite us.  Every time I looked at him, he was staring at my wife and then me.  I never spoke or gave any indication that I knew who he was. Probably pissed off the nazi bastard.  His wife seemed very nice, however. Dave LaCourse

You aren’t telling me "gasp" that you and your wife are of diferrent races or something are you ? That or he’s a perv who openly oggles another mans wife.I guess he’d glare at me and Liz. When Liz is tan her Cherokee ancestry really stands out. And she ain’t hard to look at ! It’s gonna be an interesting 4 months. A buddy of mine is moving to England and staying with family there if Gore gets elected. Says he couldn’t take 4 more years of the " Clinton Regime " and he has an option. Lucky bastard. Bob Before you buy.

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______  The problem is the American People are too stupid to realize that the Federal Reserve and the powers that be are presenting them two candidates that shouldn’t even be voted in as dog catchers!  You dumb shits! What you need to do is write in someone that loves guns and hates people sneaking into the United States illegally. Among other things, the Office needs a person of high moral standard. Kick the narcotic using bastards out! The rest of you need to get a life! — MrG/American Sportsman http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjun00.html  LATEST BAMBOO FACTS "the saga continues"

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You called it. By the way, most people are too stupid to realize the Mayans invented television and that Atlantis is in fact now Atlanta. Peace love and understanding…or not. Alex

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ______  The problem is the American People are too stupid to realize that the Federal Reserve and the powers that be are presenting them two candidates that shouldn’t even be voted in as dog catchers!  You dumb shits! What you need to do is write in someone that loves guns and hates people sneaking into the United States illegally. Among other things, the Office needs a person of high moral standard. Kick the narcotic using bastards out! The rest of you need to get a life! — MrG/American Sportsman http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjun00.html  LATEST BAMBOO FACTS "the saga continues"

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I’ve always been impressed with their cast-rate. alex

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is "queer mongering?" Shawn,A Long Island Layabout I cetainly hope it’s not like fish mongering, but with queers. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Or, the old old saying: ya can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mr.G/American Sportsman wrote  Is there no way to stop this criminal and his hooligans? No.  Give it up. —                                                       -dnc-

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Boy, this is a new twist. Queer mongering? I thought the problem was Clinton was hetero. Well slap me dumb and call me senseless, the whole thing makes sense now. Face it: Clinton’s problem is that he kicked the moribund Republican assholes out of office and managed the country into prosperity. He did it thru fiscal conservatism, fighting off the regulators, reforming welfare, giving high tech the freedom to blossom and giving the American working stiff half a break. Along the way a whole new segment of America’s creative people got rich. Its the old guard and their wanna-bees, and their campfollowers, who hate his ass the most. He had the audacity to steal the few good ideas the Rs had and it makes them furious. That, and of course his blowjob, and probably the fact that he is a Southern populist. They hated Carter too, as much for his accent as anything. Maybe someone can remind me just when  and who was the last R pres  who gave half a shit for working people in this country. The Rs had a chance with McCain. I would have overlooked some of his repub claptrap (I do it all the time with goofy Dem ideas) and voted for him just because he came off as honest and his own man. Instead the money boys gave the nomination to a clown that makes Gore look like a paragon of competence. So I’ll be voting "D" this year because , in spite of all their nonsense, at least their dime’s worth of difference is on the side of the working people and creative minds of this country. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is "queer mongering?" Shawn,A Long Island Layabout Ask G, I’m sure he’s an expert on the subject. — Charlie…

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Face it: Clinton’s problem is that he kicked the moribund Republican assholes out of office and managed the country into prosperity. He did it thru fiscal conservatism, fighting off the regulators, reforming welfare, giving high tech the freedom to blossom and giving the American working stiff half a break. Along the way a whole new segment of America’s creative people got rich.

Nah. It was all due to Alan Greenspan. Maybe someone can remind me just when  and who was the last R pres  who gave half a shit for working people in this country.

Abraham Lincoln? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Boy, this is a new twist. Queer mongering? I thought the problem was Clinton was hetero. It was the military issue David.  

George is just upset because they let fruitcakes like himself into the military.      - Ken

Response:

Am I the only person in the United States that notices the many different colors of hair Bill Clinton wears from day to day?  It ranges from a dark sandy to regular sandy hair to light gray hair, until today when it suddenly turned totally WHITE!  Who are the makeup artists that are doing this whitewash job with a lame duck lying, two faced, queer mongering, dope smoking, draft dodging, traitor of the United States who gives China our military secrets, bastard?!   The real cowards of America today are two houses of government that need total replacement for allowing this fool occupy the highest office in this land.  Is there no way to stop this criminal and his hooligans? MrG/American Sportsman "the saga continues"

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The real cowards of America today are two houses of government that need total replacement for allowing this fool occupy the highest office in this land.  Is there no way to stop this criminal and his hooligans?

If you find a answer/solution to this one, you got my vote.  A lot of people my age are fed up with the business as usual, self-serving, pork barrel politics that we have witnessed all of our lives.  Maybe in the near future the X’ers will clean house, who knows. I look at roff and I think at times I could build the perfect President by taking bits and pieces of people here.  At times I find the best of people here can match those found anywhere else.   Take a little of  Wayno’s diplomacy, ET1&2’s attitude, RW’s touchy feeling stuff (or his stock market knowledge, perhaps both), a little LaCourse for his arboriculture and knowledge of pets for the White House (baaa-d),  a lot of Mike C for his way with words, vast knowledge base and willingness to help, a little Dave S to say what needs to be said, a little Vern for his innocence and honesty, a little Opie for his sense of humor, and a little Mr G because we need someone who is crazy enough to actually do the things that need to be done. I could go on and on and on but this was too long as it is.  If I didn’t mention you, don’t worry because  I didn’t forget you.  I just wanted to make sure I didn’t put anyone to sleep as I made the list.  Frank, Wayne, Frank, Steve, Levi, Jon, John, Peter and the rest of you that I didn’t mention, I will some other time because you all have ingredients for the recipe. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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The real cowards of America today are two houses of government that need total replacement for allowing this fool occupy the highest office in this land.  Is there no way to stop this criminal and his hooligans?

        of course, george:  capital punishment.  surely you have noticed that it has solved all our other problems. wayno

Response:

Take a little of  Wayno’s diplomacy, ET1&2’s attitude,

        if you equip our candidate with the evil twins’ attitude, you are gonna need a helluva lot more diplomacy than i can summon to save the campaign from an early demise!         wayno, whose campaign slogan is "two pots for every garage"

Response:

George writes: The real cowards of America today are two houses of government that need total replacement for allowing this fool occupy the highest office in this land.  Is there no way to stop this criminal and his hooligans?

Given a 40 percent voter turnout for the last couple of Presidential elections, the houses that need to wake up would not seem to the houses of Congress, George. Look what apathy has given us for a field this year!  Two major party candidates who both seem incapable of independent thought, a Green party candidate that often seems unaware of his own party’s agenda and Buchanan(Nazi Lite). Yeesh!                            Tom Littleton

Response:

Am I the only person in the United States that notices the many different colors of hair Bill Clinton wears from day to day?  It ranges from a dark sandy to regular sandy hair to light gray hair, until today when it suddenly turned totally WHITE!  Who are the makeup artists that are doing this whitewash job with a lame duck lying, two faced, queer mongering, dope smoking, draft dodging, traitor of the United States who gives China our military secrets, bastard?!

Maybe he hired Ronald Reagan’s hairdresser. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Maybe he hired Ronald Reagan’s hairdresser.

Krylon or Rustoleum? — Charlie…

Response:

if you equip our candidate with the evil twins’ attitude, you are gonna need a helluva lot more diplomacy than i can summon to save the campaign from an early demise!

I don’t know.  I think people are ready for something new.  Someone who will say what needs to be said instead of what they think we need to hear.  Besides, they have been pretty quiet lately and you have been very diplomatic <g Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Question:

I am wondering what type of experiences people have had fishing smallmouth in the Quetico in early September.  We have a group who has gone on several spring trips thinking about a fall trip.  Several of us are fly fishermen, so in particular, I’m wondering if the fish use shallow areas this time of year or if they begin to go deep. Thanks Peter Jonas Iron Mountain, MI

Response:

I am wondering what type of experiences people have had fishing smallmouth in the Quetico in early September.  We have a group who has gone on several spring trips thinking about a fall trip.  Several of us are fly fishermen, so in particular, I’m wondering if the fish use shallow areas this time of year or if they begin to go deep.

        They are still deep in early Sept. Don’t forget they don’t care about the air temp., they care about the water temp. And by the end of Aug. the water is as warm there as it gets. Mornings and evenings might still be okay though. But otherwise think late Sept., early Oct. tgb

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Question:

A lawn is a good place to learn, just cast the line without a leader or hook..

Hi Ernie, I agree about the lawn(or a decent sized patch of grass) being a good place to learn, but I believe a leader of about 8-9 ft in length with a tiny bit of cotton wool instead of a fly, balances up the line nicely. — Bill

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I’ve been reading a lot about fly fishing; so I’m ready to hit the water. But what I’m still not sure of is how do I get the line out before the cast,especially when I’m fishing stillwaters, or want to fish cross current on a river. Thanks Randy Kadish Go to the Sports section of the following site. Several good videos

on fly fishing. Good Luck http://www.totalmarketing.com

Response:

go back to the library and check out some instructional videos on flyfishing….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been reading a lot about fly fishing; so I’m ready to hit the water. But what I’m still not sure of is how do I get the line out before the cast,especially when I’m fishing stillwaters, or want to fish cross current on a river. Thanks Randy Kadish

Response:

tie on some kind of leader…that gets down in diameter once or twice…will give you the light end section that’ll help more than the dead pull of the line ..(too heavy). steve d.

Response:

A lawn is a good place to learn, just cast the line without a leader or hook.. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NB beginners usually find it much easier to learn on running rather than still water, because you need the line straight(ish) for the pickup for the next cast, and the current straightens it for you. I disagree. With the current going, it was hellish for me trying to keep the line worked, the cast out of the trees, the fly on the leader, the line that had been stripped our of the current, and staying upright all at the same time, and I was on a slow, large creek. So, I’d say that you should try to find a farm pond before you venture to the river. Bryce Carron Rockford, Tn

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I’ve been reading a lot about fly fishing; so I’m ready to hit the water. But what I’m still not sure of is how do I get the line out before the cast,especially when I’m fishing stillwaters, or want to fish cross current on a river. Thanks Randy Kadish

Response:

I’ve been reading a lot about fly fishing; so I’m ready to hit the water. But what I’m still not sure of is how do I get the line out before the cast,especially when I’m fishing stillwaters, or want to fish cross current on a river.

Start with 10-12 ft. of line beyond the tip-top.  You can roll-cast that to aerialize it, then add about 5 ft. per false cast, stripping more off the reel with your line hand on each back cast. NB beginners usually find it much easier to learn on running rather than still water, because you need the line straight(ish) for the pickup for the next cast, and the current straightens it for you. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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NB beginners usually find it much easier to learn on running rather than still water, because you need the line straight(ish) for the pickup for the next cast, and the current straightens it for you.

I disagree. With the current going, it was hellish for me trying to keep the line worked, the cast out of the trees, the fly on the leader, the line that had been stripped our of the current, and staying upright all at the same time, and I was on a slow, large creek. So, I’d say that you should try to find a farm pond before you venture to the river. Bryce Carron Rockford, Tn

Response:

Question:

Where can I fly fish within an hour or so of Phoenix next week?

Response:

Where can I fly fish within an hour or so of Phoenix next week?

Try the Salt River, below Stewart Mountain Dam(n). It’s east of town, less than an hour away.  Any of the local fly or tackle shops (try Ellington’s Flies; they’re in the white pages) can give you directions and current info.  There are rainbow trout and largemouth bass.  Now that summer’s gone, so are the crowds. Charlie Quinton

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Question:

My girlfriend (a novice fisherperson) will be in Telluride mid-June for the Bluegrass Festival and she wants to do some fishing in the area.  Is there a fly store in the town worth sending her to where they can help with her fly selection and/or good places to fish.  Non-serious replies can be directed to alt.rec.erotica. Thanks in advance,         EMM — Edwin M. Maynard                          Department of Bioengineering phone: (801) 581-3817                     Moran Laboratories fax: (801) 585-5361                       506 Biopolymer Research Building                                           Salt Lake City, Utah 84112 Play hard, play fair, but most importantly just play.

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I do not recall a fly shop in town.  However, I would call Scott Fly Rods, who are now located in that town and ask them for either guides or info. They may have a B&B destination place in the area.  I thought I recalled seeing a flyer for that. Hope this helps –jim *                                                     *

Response:

edwin- she can go to Olympic Sports (which in 91-92 timeframe sold Orvis equip.). typically at this time of year the run off is still pretty high in the San Miguel River (which runs through town and down valley). The river also experiences a huge impact thbluegrass weekend due to a 1000% increase in the population fo telluride during the festival. the fishing in the san miguel is a lot of fun, and olympic sports should be able to give her a good fly selection (and a guide if necessary). she could also check out alta, trout, or priest lakes which are in the area. -ted

: My girlfriend (a novice fisherperson) will be in Telluride mid-June for : the Bluegrass Festival and she wants to do some fishing in the area.  Is : there a fly store in the town worth sending her to where they can help : with her fly selection and/or good places to fish.  Non-serious replies : can be directed to alt.rec.erotica. : Thanks in advance, :       EMM : — : Edwin M. Maynard                          Department of Bioengineering : phone: (801) 581-3817                     Moran Laboratories : fax: (801) 585-5361                       506 Biopolymer Research Building :                                         Salt Lake City, Utah 84112 : Play hard, play fair, but most importantly just play.

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