Question:

Not Bill McNeese, but Dave McNeese.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Adam, The clear intermediate slow sinking tropical lines are designed for fishing in the warm weather out of a boat. I would overline one size larger than your rod size so it will handle those larger flies better. I would use an SA/Mastery "Tarpon" monocore slow sinking clear WF10S on a #9 rod for your trip. I would also do the same thing with a WF10F Mastery "Tarpon" floater for poppers. Or you could put a WF11 on a #10 rod ? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

Hi Marilyn, Your response brought up one more question: My 9 wt is a Sage 3-pc saltwater RPLX (I think, it’s about 6 years old), and I am a reasonable caster, do you still recommend overlining the rod.  I’ve had my rods built by Bill McNeese (steelhead fisherman out of Seattle) and he has always told me to use the same wt line. Regards, Adam

Response:

For that kind of fishing I have been using the intermediate tip lines. made by everybody now and I use Cortland.  Really helps to load the line and when fishing with big streamers is really a help, especially when blind casting all day.

What are the casting qualities of an intermediate tipped line?  Does it hinge?  Do they do well in warm water. Do I have to bring it all the way to the boat.  My concern here is that as I fish the shore, will I be able to pick the line up and get it back to the shore the way one can do it with a floating line (ie, will I be able to keep the distance from the boat to shore relatively constant)?  About how deep will it go, do they have the regular 1-2"/minute sink rates? Thanks, Adam

Response:

Hi Adam, The clear intermediate slow sinking tropical lines are designed for fishing in the warm weather out of a boat. I would overline one size larger than your rod size so it will handle those larger flies better. I would use an SA/Mastery "Tarpon" monocore slow sinking clear WF10S on a #9 rod for your trip. I would also do the same thing with a WF10F Mastery "Tarpon" floater for poppers. Or you could put a WF11 on a #10 rod ? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Going to Amazon to fly fish for peacock bass.  It has been suggested to use an intermediate sinking monocore line.  I’ll be casting large, but hopefully not too wind resistant streamers (6-8", made from Kinky Fibre Deceiver type-no feathers and poppers (1/2 to 3/4" closed foam cell heads).  I’ve never used this line and before I get one, I’d like to know the characteristics (pluses and minuses, if you will) of this line when used in warm water and largish flies.  Thanks, Adam —

Response:

Going to Amazon to fly fish for peacock bass.  It has been suggested to use an intermediate sinking monocore line.  I’ll be casting large, but hopefully not too wind resistant streamers (6-8", made from Kinky Fibre Deceiver type-no feathers and poppers (1/2 to 3/4" closed foam cell heads).  I’ve never used this line and before I get one, I’d like to know the characteristics (pluses and minuses, if you will) of this line when used in warm water and largish flies.  Thanks, Adam —

Response:

For that kind of fishing I have been using the intermediate tip lines.   made by everybody now and I use Cortland.  Really helps to load the line and when fishing with big streamers is really a help, especially when blind casting all day. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Going to Amazon to fly fish for peacock bass.  It has been suggested to use an intermediate sinking monocore line.  I’ll be casting large, but hopefully not too wind resistant streamers (6-8", made from Kinky Fibre Deceiver type-no feathers and poppers (1/2 to 3/4" closed foam cell heads).  I’ve never used this line and before I get one, I’d like to know the characteristics (pluses and minuses, if you will) of this line when used in warm water and largish flies.  Thanks, Adam —

Response:

Question:

Just thought I’d post this for a friend, hopefully this is allowed by all of you. She is selling her fly fishing ranch along with all her fly shop inventory. If any of you are interested take a look here; http://www.blackfireflyfishing.com Thanks!!

Response:

Just thought I’d post this for a friend, hopefully this is allowed by all of you. She is selling her fly fishing ranch along with all her fly shop inventory. If any of you are interested take a look here; http://www.blackfireflyfishing.com

Wolfgang workin in a coal mine, goin down down down

Response:

helping? …you should rename the post: "helping rip-off the ignorant"…the prices are a joke,,she must be giving you a cut of the hefty product..id offer you 30cents on the dollar..like any other "liquidation"…so go play in the middle of the River..your bargain aint welcome here bubbye

Just thought I’d post this for a friend, hopefully this is allowed by all of you. She is selling her fly fishing ranch along with all her fly shop inventory. If any of you are interested take a look here; http://www.blackfireflyfishing.com Wolfgang workin in a coal mine, goin down down down

— Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Question:

Finally!!!! a pertinent post to ROFF!!! waldo

#1 pickup line…."hey, nice tooth". Natty

Response:

Thanks to all who have given their advice regarding my trip to somewhere in Maine in late June.  From what I have gleaned from your responses, I believe that I will have my best success on either the Rapid or the East outlet of Moosehead Lake. It sounds like I can not go wrong with either of these pieces of water.  If these waters are comparable, what are some of the things that would make you prefer one of these rivers over another? Quality fishing, lack of crowds, nearby lodges, wildness of scenery, etc.. Thanks, Brooktrout22 Ed

Response:

Brooktrout22 writes: It sounds like I can not go wrong with either of these pieces of water.  If these waters are comparable, what are some of the things that would make you prefer one of these rivers over another? Quality fishing, lack of crowds, nearby lodges, wildness of scenery, etc.. Thanks, Brooktrout22 Ed

Ed, Lakewood Camps is super.  You can go to The East Outlet and you’ll probably catch fish, but Lakewood’s food and atmosphere is tops.  Plus, I think the Rapid fishes better than the East Outlet, with less crowds.  You can *drive* to the East Outlet.   You can’t drive to Lakewood (it is gated).  A boat picks you up at South Arm.    "Outsiders" have to either boat or walk in, so it is less crowded than EO.    The only time I fish EO is in October when the crowds are nil and it is the only place you can still fish.  JMO, of course.  I will be at Lakewood in late June  (25 – 30) with my grandsons and could help you with the river.  Both rivers have their idiosyncrasies. Dave L.

Response:

If these waters are comparable, what are some of the things that would make you prefer one of these rivers over another?

Hard question. Tough choice. There are camps at the headwaters of the Outlet and also at Middledam on the Rapid. I can’t vouch for the outlet as I’ve never stayed there, but Lakewood camps are quite nice and they take good care of you. Plan on gaining weight if you stay there. Both rivers are fairly wild once you get downstream a bit. I expect that the ‘famous’ pools of each have their crowds, and both have plenty of water if you’re willing to walk a bit. Based on my limited fishing of the Rapid my opinion is that the outlet has more large fish, but you will catch more fish at the Rapid and the Rapid also has the opportunity for you to catch a genuine wild brookie of prodigious size. To be fair to the outlet there are some very large brookies there as well, but it’s reputation is that of a salmon river, not a brook trout river. I once even caught a fairly skinny toque (Lake Trout) in the outlet as well that fought about as hard as 2 foot stick. late June is prime time on both rivers, the outlet will run more to generic caddis and stonefly hatches, with a few selected mayflies mixed in. The Rapid is rumored to have a fairly substantial Alder fly hatch in late June. I expect to day trip up for some of that action this summer. You didn’t say if you were interested in a guide. On the east outlet there are a couple of guide services that will run the entire river in a drift boat, something I highly recommend. I believe that the Rapid tends more to a wading experience with the exception of Pond in the River. This is not to suggest that the outlet isn’t wadable, it is, but it has a series of fairly large and deep pools that cannot be completely covered while wading. The outlet offers the opportunity to sample the extensive night life in Greenville and Rockwood (I’m a lumberjack and I’m ok, I work all night….everyone join in now:-)) and to easily visit the Roach and with a 2 hour drive and a couple of paper company gates, the West Branch. Or head north 30-40 mins and fish the Moose River where it dumps into Moosehead Lake. Lakewood will offer you a nice cabin, with lights and showers, incredible food (plan on gaining weight) and an easy walk to the fishing beginning at Middle Dam. Flyfish

Response:

Thanks to all for your advice.  I will see you on the Rapid in late June. Brooktrout

Response:

The outlet offers the opportunity to sample the extensive night life in Greenville and Rockwood

LOL.   You mean the ceremonial rolling up of the sidewalks?  (in the few spots they actually have sidewalks.)  :-) Joe F.

Response:

Joe Fleischman writes: The outlet offers the opportunity to sample the extensive night life in Greenville and Rockwood LOL.   You mean the ceremonial rolling up of the sidewalks?  (in the few spots they actually have sidewalks.)  :-) Joe F.

Hey, the pizza parlor in beautiful downtown Greenvile stays open until 11 pm – Dave

Response:

Caviasco writes: Thanks to all for your advice.  I will see you on the Rapid in late June.

I’ll be the old guy with two tall teenage boys. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Caviasco;   Can’t go wrong with either choice. My only complaint about staying at Lakewood–which I have many times–was the meal schedule. They serve dinner from 6:30 to 8 pm in the evening–EXACTLY when I want to be on the river on a June evening.    Most of the guys staying there were in the dining area–while–as a "hard-core"–I was eating a sandwich out on the Rapid.   By staying at camps on the East Outlet I find I can arrange my meal schedule to suit  my needs–around the best fishing times. That’s the only complaint I had about Lakewood. Great camps–great people–great fishing. You’ll have a wonderful time.    Dave M

Response:

Dave M. writes: My only complaint about staying at Lakewood–which I have many times–was the meal schedule. They serve dinner from 6:30 to 8 pm in the evening–EXACTLY when I want to be on the river on a June evening.

Psssst.   Shhhhhhhh.  (speaking softly) Don’t tell anyone, but you can have your meal served to you in your cabin *after* 8 p.m.  Extra charge of course.   Few know about it. Dave L.

Response:

Dammit you bottom feeder, why didn’t you share that with us during the clave! Of course I could have been broke by the end of the clave… Flyfish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave M. writes: My only complaint about staying at Lakewood–which I have many times–was the meal schedule. They serve dinner from 6:30 to 8 pm in the evening–EXACTLY when I want to be on the river on a June evening. Psssst.   Shhhhhhhh.  (speaking softly) Don’t tell anyone, but you can have your meal served to you in your cabin *after* 8 p.m.  Extra charge of course. Few know about it. Dave L.

Response:

Psssst.   Shhhhhhhh.  (speaking softly) Don’t tell anyone, but you can have your meal served to you in your cabin *after* 8 p.m.  Extra charge of course. Few know about it.

The other thing you can do is cheat back the show-up time a bit. I spent my time at Lakewood trying to figure out what the *latest* possible time was that I could show up for meals and not lose out. I also tried to figure out how to get up and get ready in the morning without waking up Jeff Miller. An impossible task. I defy anyone to pre-rise Jeff at the Penn Clave. –Steve

Response:

Dave B. writes: Dammit you bottom feeder, why didn’t you share that with us during the clave! Of course I could have been broke by the end of the clave…

Well, I would have, but I figured an intimate dinner by candle light  with Paul, Dave, and Dave  would have been too much for you.  <g   What Dave M. says has some merit, but if you eat at 6:30, you can be back on the river by 7.  I’ve done it myself many times.  Or, you can get your big streamers and a 6 or 7 weight and go to the dam and chuck for big brookies/salmon.  I took a 4 pound brookie on a green ghost last September at the dam after dinner. Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

Response:

LOL.   You mean the ceremonial rolling up of the sidewalks?  (in the few spots they actually have sidewalks.)  :-)

If you fish the West Branch, there’s a girly bar in T2R9 just outside Millinockett.  Actually, there’s a girly bar there even if you don’t fish the West Branch.

Response:

If you fish the West Branch, there’s a girly bar in T2R9 just outside Millinockett.  Actually, there’s a girly bar there even if you don’t fish the West Branch.

Ya know, now that I think of it, I lived in Millinocket for 2 years and never once went into "La Casa", starting to wonder if I was sick at the time . Of course what looks great to a lumberjack after a week in a tiny trailer somewhere out off the Golden road might not be up to my exacting standards. For the out of staters, also affectionately called flatlanders, T2R9 is township 2 range 9, otherwise known as an ‘unincorporated township’ meaning most likely no one lives there except the critters, there is no local government, no local taxes except at the county and state level. Almost heaven except for the (usually) exceptionally long drive to anywhere that has gas, food, entertainment etc. In the case of La Casa, the adult entertainment megacenter of Penobscot County, it’s wedged right between East Millinocket and Millinocket. Imagine the chagrin when the town counsel of East Millinocket discovered that La Casa was NOT located in the town thereof and was therefore not subject to their attempt to zone it out of existence (true story). Flyfish

Response:

LOL.   You mean the ceremonial rolling up of the sidewalks?  (in the few spots they actually have sidewalks.)  :-) If you fish the West Branch, there’s a girly bar in T2R9 just outside Millinockett.  Actually, there’s a girly bar there even if you don’t fish the West Branch.

Finally!!!! a pertinent post to ROFF!!! waldo

Response:

Zimbo writes: I also tried to figure out how to get up and get ready in the morning without waking up Jeff Miller. An impossible task. I defy anyone to pre-rise Jeff at the Penn Clave.

Can’t be done.  Will never be done.  That’s why he’s the official coffee maker whenever he’s around.  That’s all we let him do, though.  Coffee, just coffee……good too… Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

Response:

Rory McQuillan writes: If you fish the West Branch, there’s a girly bar in T2R9 just outside Millinockett.  Actually, there’s a girly bar there even if you don’t fish the West Branch.

<g  Better explain to our non-Maine friends what a "T2R9" is, Rory.  And our southern brethren call dem places "titty bars".  <g   Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

Response:

Rory McQuillan writes: If you fish the West Branch, there’s a girly bar in T2R9 just outside Millinockett.  Actually, there’s a girly bar there even if you don’t fish the West Branch. <g  Better explain to our non-Maine friends what a "T2R9" is, Rory.  And our southern brethren call dem places "titty bars".  <g Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

Yeah, but do them girlys do back massages?  In the water? Frank (oh,the pain!) Church

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes It looks, from the pictures in the Old Town catalogue as if the pack may have a  slightly shallower and more curved hull – do you think this would make much difference over the 119k? (stability, or dryness?) If you can find them both on display, take a close look at them. The cross section line drawing in the catalog for the Pack looks more like the actual profile of the 119K in real life. The bottom of the 119 isn’t nearly as flat as the catalog line drawing would suggest; it’s more like a shallow-V, with a nice curve into the bilges. The 119 should be slightly dryer as it is a couple of inches deeper in the center, bow, and stern, has a bit more flare on the sides, and has a slightly higher load rating (although I don’t think I would try to put that much into one!). Either would likely be good choice for your intended use. Good luck! Bob

Thanks for your help, Bob. I think I may go for the 119. Roger —

Response:

 I have had my "pack" for about 3 years now and have taken it from boundary waters to the everglades. Its a great little canoe…pretty stable until the water gets about 1/2-1 foot chop with hefty breeze then it gets dicey & youll want a heavier craft…easy to portage, nice & light…not a speed demon but it’ll get ya there..I prefer a kayak paddle, better tracking..hardly draws any water with my 190 lbs in it…only downside is it needs some kind of skid plate to combat abrasion on the bottoms bow & aft. I wouldnt trade it for anything except maybe a ceder strip cajun piroque Before you buy.

Response:

It looks, from the pictures in the Old Town catalogue as if the pack may have a  slightly shallower and more curved hull – do you think this would make much difference over the 119k? (stability, or dryness?)

        Again, never been inthe 119k, but the Pack is pretty damned stable in my opinion. Any way, tgb, your description of your use of the pack sounds a very pleasant way to spend a day!

        Yeah, from little trout lake to trout lake. But want to add that this is often done while on week or so solo trips, and that little canoe has handled all my gear for same. (Generally consisting of one large

Question:

— You should have told him about St. Regis, MT.  I don’t think you can get an outastate licence outastate!  

You can also get Idaho licenses in Missoula, at a big sporting goods store, the name of which I forget. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

Try telephoning (800)55HUNT5.  Idaho Fish & Game will mail within two weeks.  It’s a great service.  By the way, a neat way to contribute to Idaho’s trout is to buy a season’s license no matter how many days you intend to fish.  I’ve done it for years and it makes me feel good.  (p.s. I live in West Des Moines, Iowa)

Response:

: Can anyone suggest a location to purchase an Idaho fishing licence in either : Coeur D’Alene or Wallace?  I will be driving thru soon and need to pick up an : out-of-state licence.  I used to buy them in St. Regis, but they stopped : selling them. Stop in Coeur d’Alene at just about any gas station or store.  It’s risky to wait until Wallace… it’s a small town and besides… Wallace was destroyed by that volcano.  Didn’t you see the movie? —

You should have told him about St. Regis, MT.  I don’t think you can get an outastate licence outastate!   Go Vandals! john wheaton (boise & plummer) my opinion is always my own…

Response:

Can anyone suggest a location to purchase an Idaho fishing licence in either Coeur D’Alene or Wallace?  I will be driving thru soon and need to pick up an out-of-state licence.  I used to buy them in St. Regis, but they stopped selling them. thanks! -John

Hi John In CDA you can get them at Tom’s Sportco on 4th St or in Wallace there is a sports shop (the name slips past right now) that is on the main st in town. Good luck on your trip. Email me how things turn out — I suspect you are going to the Joe. Take care & … — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products On line catalog – tips & tricks at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

Response:

: Can anyone suggest a location to purchase an Idaho fishing licence in either : Coeur D’Alene or Wallace?  I will be driving thru soon and need to pick up an : out-of-state licence.  I used to buy them in St. Regis, but they stopped : selling them. Stop in Coeur d’Alene at just about any gas station or store.  It’s risky to wait until Wallace… it’s a small town and besides… Wallace was destroyed by that volcano.  Didn’t you see the movie? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Can anyone suggest a location to purchase an Idaho fishing licence in either Coeur D’Alene or Wallace?  I will be driving thru soon and need to pick up an out-of-state licence.  I used to buy them in St. Regis, but they stopped selling them. thanks! -John

Response:

Question:

I intend to visit Italy in mid May, probably the Tuscany region.  I’m intrested in fly fishing opportunities there, especially those that might lead to a story for US magazines.  Any assistance…would be much appreciated. SMN

SMN—Two years ago I met Claudio Tosti, director/instructor at Scuola Italiana Pesca A Mosca (SIM).  This flyfishing school is located, believe it or not, some where in central Italy.  I understand some Italian, but speak very little;  we had a difficult time communicating. Claudio neither spoke nor understood English.   If you decide on making contact with Claudio, best to call Gino Laghi of the Golden Gate Anglers & Casting Club, 415.753.8013.  He met Claudio at the same time and he can be your interpreter.  I know he would love to assist in this venture. Claudio’s mailing address is:                                Via Lombardi, 3                                64021 Giulianova (TE)                                Telephone: 085-8001152 Ciao!    CyberFly

Response:

I intend to visit Italy in mid May, probably the Tuscany region.  I’m intrested in fly fishing opportunities there, especially those that might lead to a story for US magazines.  Any assistance…would be much appreciated. SMN

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Larry-  Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.   -Ralph

DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.  Are you just using a regular pull scales or what?  And the Dai Rikki comment I also don’t agree solidly with, but I don’t want to argue this with you because I don’t know what your controls are and the fact the IGFA specifies along with a breaking +/- % centage that there are more than one mono product(s) that breaks EXACTLY where they should and at EXACTLY the same breaking points in percentages in order to set "World Recognized IGFA Records".  MAXIMA is one such product along with Andre, Trileen, etc.  This is what makes your "most consistant comment" void (or dubious)and really, frankly biased in the face of real (already established) scientific facts compared to our and other scientific laboratory tests which have been conducted by major monofiliment companies.  Yet, I am pleased you are getting into this field and that your interests are so strong.  I hope you continue it, but I think you should ‘rethink’ your approach and possibly revisit your testing equipment and/or procedures.  Test should be run both dry and wet and off the same spool stock or batch.  Etc, etc.  But I find serious disagreement with your percentages.  Our recent tests with Knot-Perfect Knot Lube certainly changes the entire realm of how knots should behave and function.  For true uniformity, this product will definately change test results . . . and all "CONSISTANTLY for the Better".  I will send you some for your testing as a sponsor and supporter in your work, if you like.  Just need a mailing address Ralph.   Mr. G.

Response:

Hi George-  Your letter is responding to Ralph H, not me, Ralph Cutter. Non-the-less I found your post amusing, and left me with a few questions: This is why I always fish with Maxima because I have a lifetime of fishing experience with this ONE BRAND.  Every knot I tie in it is known. . . Now, this statement is about as bold as you can do, but lets face it.  I know what the hell I’m doing. . .  It means consistant breaking

or parting percentages every time.    I’m curious as to why you chose Maxima. Of ALL the lines we have tested it is the most inconsistent. The diameter, color and strength vary greatly from spool to spool and we’ve noted up to .02 differences in the same spool. This is an observation made by several different line testers.   Maxima is an old product. Over the past decade Polymer technologies have advanced almost as fast as computers. My old Kaypro was fine in its time, but in the case of plastics and computers newer is better. A breaking scale does not a scientist make.  

   That is why we employed a polymer chemist to help us with our testing parameters. Much of the actual testing was done by an engineer with thirty years of stress analysis at Lockheed and Kaiser. I also know that there are much more consistant breaking and more reliable tippet materials than those bragged about.

Please share these with us. I was also amused by your previous post stating saying your knot glue was a new and revoltionary concept that could change the face of flyfishing. Forty years ago Herter’s sold a glue that was guaranteed to make monolfilament knots 100 percent. When nylon was introduced, many knot glue products were sold to help people with this new slippery material. A good product probably; revolutionary, hardly. I agree fully with the concept of your glue. ZAP A GAP and PVC cement do the same. Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

Response:

If Tony and Spinolio got married they’d have offspring named Toniolio.

Easy for you, Tim to ponder Tony’s mating habits when your mouth has obviously been surgically attached to his fat ass <G. For the record, I have a tube of George’s knot-goop *and* I agree with Tony…noone I know would fool with it astream…a little spit-tle do ya…it snot that big of thing…

For the record I *don’t* have a tube and would never buy one (come fishing with me, Tim, and you’ll see how I tie knots). My post was in response to Gades telling George to stop posting, as if this were something Gades has the power to do. (Note to Gades: I got your big, bad hate mail, just as other people warned me I would. Apparently you’re becoming famous for this sort of thing. Very scary, but don’t flatter yourself…I would never actually email you).   No good will become the fellow that needs lubricant to tie a knot.

Don’t look at me, you’re the one who bought it. Spinolio

Response:

Hi Rick-   The Orvis Knot and the Mono loop knot tested virtually the same. E mail me your postal address and I’ll send you more data.   -Ralph

Ralph, I notice you have a web site. Maybe you could put your results up there (so you don’t have dozens of us requesting copies in the mail). Thanks for the informative posts. Jim Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com /v/                            /v/

– Opinions expressed are my own, and not those of my employer.

Response:

  If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? Must be naught tests. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

Great .sig file Anglerboy !.  You gotta love it… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process.

Let me know when you come up with one. As for the streamside choice, I applaud your choosing knot-goop.

I would only choose a tube of knot-goop over your company… better conversation. It is consistent with the fact that you don’t actually fish.

Yeesh… ya really got me with that one, Tony. Same to you, only double! Ha! I’ve been to your masturbatory web site… are you the fat, ugly cosksucker holding the dead fish or is that your Orvis-endorsed guide. Spinolio

Response:

If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? TimW Halfordian Golfer

As you can tell from the way these threads are unspooling, the answer to that question is still tied up in debate.  If I understand these tests correctly, we should all start using distilled water and George’s goop — they’ll make our knots so strong we’ll be uprooting trees every time we try to yank a fly free from a limb. John

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   (much blather snipped)   Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test   that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would   bother with such a product streamside.   Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t   imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside   or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down.   Spinolio It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process.

.. hmmm sounds interesting Mr Gades. Based on your CV (checked out that web site you advertise) this is something you know a thing or two about. Sometime maybe you’ll take a break from being crabby and give us a demo! 8^) Ralph H (just a simple dip shit) " … the sabbath rang slowly in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill" " One man free to love his minute   in the realms of flesh and sun   breaks down more pain than ages   of humane law or lawyers can." Leonard Cohen, " Crying, Come Back, Hero"

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Hi Jon-   We found that as monofilament soaks up water it becomes increasingly vulnerable to cutting itself with tight radius knots (mono loop and wind knots). Clinching type knots (Uni-knot) actually often became a bit stronger, possibly because the swelling of the monofilament created a tighter grip.    When developing testing parameters we put knotted lines in water and tested knots at 5 minute intervals. After about 30 minutes the changes were no longer noticable. For the hell of it we let the lines soak for an additional 15 minutes simply to be sure they were soaked to capacity.    The IGFA also soaks lines before subjecting them to class rating tests.    -Ralph Ralph, I am curious why you use 45 min. soaking. I can see wetting having one or more of several effects. 1) just surface coating which may affect surface tension or lubricity of the knots in some way and possibly affecting cinching or stress production in the knot and 2) interaction with the plastic polymer which would imply some sort of penetration into the plastic and a change of its physical characteristics. #1 would happen immediately upon wetting and #2 may be time-dependent based on the permeability of the plastic. A grey-zone might occur if #1 was the main effect but the water required time to penetrate the knot. It would be easy to test by looking at change in breaking strength over time of a wet strand in the absence of a knot. Any comments? Just curious. Jon

Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

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  If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? Must be naught tests. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio Right on! It’s about time somebody called-out this Gades character. I’ve yet to read a post where he didn’t come off as being pompous and rude.

If Tony and Spinolio got married they’d have offspring named Toniolio. Whydoncha relax a notch swatson ? For the record, I have a tube of George’s knot-goop *and* I agree with Tony…noone I know would fool with it astream…a little spit-tle do ya…it snot that big of thing… No good will become the fellow that needs lubricant to tie a knot. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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(much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio

Right on! It’s about time somebody called-out this Gades character. I’ve yet to read a post where he didn’t come off as being pompous and rude.

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Hi Rick-    The Orvis Knot and the Mono loop knot tested virtually the same. E mail me your postal address and I’ll send you more data.    -Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great post!!   I was wondering, you mention that the Orvis knot was "far short of the Uni-knot" but you didn’t give a percentage.  I tend to like the Orvis knot because of it’s ease in tying and the thought that it was so strong. Also, I think a comparision of Wet to Dry Knot strenths would be very interesting.  Do you have that kind of data?   I have never considered the Duncan Loop to be a very strong knot but your data does not support this idea. Once agin, thanks for the information and keep up the good work. Rick Richard Padgett

Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G. Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. , While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried – at least partially – by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test? None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative. AND! George seems to have thrown down a gauntlet regarding the effectiveness of his knot goop. I for one would be fascinated by an independent before and after sort of comparison. Ralph H (just a simple dipshit 8^) ) "…      the sabbath rang slowly      in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill"

RALPH, you are not a dipshit.  Christ.  Loosen up.  What you should do is reread every sentence in my answer carefully without putting words in my mouth.  Re-review the part about the IGFA and think a bit.  What I say is based on sound facts.  If you want to call someone a liar, than you should but don’t count me in on your train-of-logic because it is also incorrect.  As far as challenges are concerned regarding KNOT-PERFECT, I will say this Ralph.  I will challenge anyone in the world not to agree that Knot-Perfect, (WATCH MY WORDS!) will make any brand of tippet/leader material (KNOT FOR KNOT) a more consistant breaking knot for THAT MATERIAL.  Understand? For instance, a batch or spool of 2# test may break variously with ONE KNOT but once you use KNOT-PERFECT on that same knot each time its tied, that knot will break more consistantly AT THE SAME POUNDAGE than with any other product in the world. What this means Ralph is this.  You can train yourself with two pound test and with the same brand of mono used every time to sense or KNOW how hard to fight and pull on a fish before that brand and knot will break.  This comes with experience.  It is not learned over-night. This is why I always fish with Maxima because I have a lifetime of fishing experience with this ONE BRAND.  Every knot I tie in it is known.  A blood knot will break at a different percentage than another. Etc.  However, my friend; there are things that KNOT-PERFECT does inside a knot and too the monofiliment that no other product in the world can do.  Now, this statement is about as bold as you can do, but lets face it.  I know what the hell I’m doing.  I haven’t spend years in my chemistry lab just swatting flies on the walls.  The point is, KNOT-PERFECT takes fishermen in all catagories that are knot-perfect and makes them (you guessed it) PERFECT!  The knots aren’t burnt.  The knots are no longer chaffed or cracked under pressure, and every knot squeezes down (for THAT PARTICULAR KNOT) around where the main tippet stem enters the knot EXACTLY THE SAME AND UNDER THE SAME PRESSURE TIME AND TIME AGAIN.  This means what?  It means consistant breaking or parting percentages every time. So, if you are tying a blood-knot all the time, for each poundage at its weakest point . . . you have dialed in a confidence level never before dreamed or possible before.  A 2.1 # test tippet in a blood-knot will break (for example) at exactly 1.9 LBS. time and time again, without exception.  This has never been possible before in the entire history of fishing.  Any kind of fishing, Ralph. A breaking scale does not a scientist make.  I still do not know what kind of scales are used or the testing parimeters.  In fact, none of us do.  The variables are massive from what we read compared to our lab tests.  I still will not compound an arguement or difference of opinion but what I am saying is that the test results posted are ‘very general.’ They are general because you do not know the material diameters, the length of the male verses the female side or; the cope vs the drag side or put another way, the length of the bottom tippet verses the top? Were identical diameters used or was a two pound test tippet attached to a four pound test piece?  I also know that there are much more consistant breaking and more reliable tippet materials than those bragged about.  And I mean, by a long shot, Ralph. And no.  I don’t know everything.  I’m no smart-ass, but I’m not stupid either.  I’ve done a lot of research work in this industry Ralph and I’m not here belittle anyone.  But I am here to freely disagree when I know I’m right. I’ll leave it at that and you all can have this thread.  I’m sorry I butted in where I wasn’t wanted. Have a nice season. Mr. G. POST SCRIPT:  I was just asked what I use all the time and of course it is Maxima.  I cannot stand tippet material that snake and curl up like D.Reek/etc. does once you catch a fish and stretch it.  No Sir.  Maxima doesn’t do this and I do not like hard, slick surfaced tippet material for much the same reasons.  When I die and they bury me, they can put a spool of Maxima in my shirt pocket so I won’t run out of it in heaven. Everyone.

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If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G. Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. ,

While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried – at least partially – by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test? None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative. AND! George seems to have thrown down a gauntlet regarding the effectiveness of his knot goop. I for one would be fascinated by an independent before and after sort of comparison. Ralph H (just a simple dipshit 8^) ) "…      the sabbath rang slowly      in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill"

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   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    (much blather snipped)     Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test     that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would     bother with such a product streamside.    Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t    imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside    or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down.    Spinolio It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process. As for the streamside choice, I applaud your choosing knot-goop.  It is consistent with the fact that you don’t actually fish. _pompously_ yours,         -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

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example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.

Great post!!   I was wondering, you mention that the Orvis knot was "far short of the Uni-knot" but you didn’t give a percentage.  I tend to like the Orvis knot because of it’s ease in tying and the thought that it was so strong. Also, I think a comparision of Wet to Dry Knot strenths would be very interesting.  Do you have that kind of data?   I have never considered the Duncan Loop to be a very strong knot but your data does not support this idea. Once agin, thanks for the information and keep up the good work. Rick Richard Padgett

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(much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside.

Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio

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..snip…. Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp.

…snip… Ralph, I am curious why you use 45 min. soaking. I can see wetting having one or more of several effects. 1) just surface coating which may affect surface tension or lubricity of the knots in some way and possibly affecting cinching or stress production in the knot and 2) interaction with the plastic polymer which would imply some sort of penetration into the plastic and a change of its physical characteristics. #1 would happen immediately upon wetting and #2 may be time-dependent based on the permeability of the plastic. A grey-zone might occur if #1 was the main effect but the water required time to penetrate the knot. It would be easy to test by looking at change in breaking strength over time of a wet strand in the absence of a knot. Any comments? Just curious. Jon

Response:

  Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G.

Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. Quote another test, its methods and results, and to make it useful to us, skip using that knot-goop because nobody is going to bother using such a product in the real world. A trilene knot (which I primarily use) has been shown repeatedly to have a breaking strength of 100%.  The 6x blood knot ranks in around 70%.  The perfection loop ranks in around 90-100%.  These results I’ve seen repeatedly.  These are the same results found by Mr. Cutter. I see no reason to disagree. Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. cheers,         -tony — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Larry-    Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.

But of course.  This is the one I tie best.  Hey, if you have good eyes, they also make a half-way decent strike indicator!  :-)   -Ralph

Cheers, and tight lines. -Mark PS:  ’Love your book, Ralph.  It should be required reading for Sierra trout anglers.  Keep up the good work.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried,at least partially by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test?

Hey dip…., You bring up some very valid points.  I don’t think the soaking time is important as long as the interval is consistant – the main thing is the line was wet (something I didn’t do when I performed a series of breaking tests). None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative.

Yep, on a relative basis it is good information to know.  Regardless of what knot you use, I find one of the most important things is to make sure the knot is snugged up tight to prevent it from cutting into its’ self and breaking. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley         2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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Hi Larry-    Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.   -Ralph

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Question:

Belize has incredible bonefish and permit fishing. Turneffe   Flats is geared to flyfishers and is one of the more   conservation minded lodges. Excellent guides and boats. Fly   Fishing Online has a group trip going there in September/95.   Call me if you want more info at 800 360-9731 or check out our   web site(see url below). Ken   Fly Fishing Online http://www.flyfishing-online.com

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Been to El Pescador on Ambregas Cay (spelling??) lots of small, dumb bonefish…but fun. Tarpon fishing OK…moderate sized fish plus long , hot, slow,  boat rides daily. J.O’C.

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Looking for information of Belize in late fall. Have you fished it, what were your impressions? Lodges, agents and the such, someone mentioned the Blue Marlin something or the other. If you’ve heard anything let me know.

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I’d like to second Ken’s vote for Turneffe Flats Lodge.  I go down there every year in the fall–try to get there before the first cold fronts come through in early November–and always have fun.  The most reliable bonefishing I’ve ever seen, relaxed, flexible pace, very pleasant guides. I may be going there at the end of July to help them explore tarpon fishing.  If anything exciting happens I’ll post it. Marshall Cutchin

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Looking for information of Belize in late fall. Have you fished it, what were your impressions? Lodges, agents and the such, someone mentioned the Blue Marlin something or the other. If you’ve heard anything let me know.

Haven’t fished it in late fall, only in spring, but hear from guides that the tarpon fishing is excellent in Sept/Oct.  Pressure is lower as well. We stayed in Holiday Hotel in San Pedro on Ambergris Caye and fished with local guides.  The guides were generally very good, as was the tarpon and bonefishing.  Staying in San Pedro is a different experience than a lodge situation, but you get to experience the Belizean people more, there is more nightlife, etc.  if you want the fishing and other things to do, this is a really fun trip.  email me if you want more info.                  /                 /                   John Woodling                /                    Sacramento, CA                   <     <

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Question:

Opinions that snaps are okay<

I’ve heard from two people now who really like those things. Perhaps it’s time I tried them again. Maybe my mind will change. Any other input would be appreciated. Thanx! JL 8-Wt Editor

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Jim Stuart writes: On the other hand, tying on bugs in low light (hell, in any light) is getting harder as I approach geezerhood and I’m thinking about trying those little snaps that are made for flies.  Anyone had any experience with them? Yeah, I tried those some years back. I found them too big for trout flies, too small for bass flies, and too wimpy in general for the rough-and-tumble, cast-to-the-tangles fishing in my area. Besides, you’ve got to tie those on, too, and they’re just as hard as any small fly, and more difficult to handle if your hands are stiff.

$.02: Maybe the fish are less rugged here in MN. I’ve used those things for years, on flies, jigs and plugs. They come in 3 sizes, so yu do have to change sizes if you have only one spool. I keep a small one on my fly rod, a medium on my lighter spinning rod, and a big ‘un on my heavyweight rod. I’ve lost fish for a mess of reasons, but those clips are not among them. They also let the fly/lure be freer for action, like a loop knot. I don’t like them for worming, though; they can collect junk if fished real slow.         /   V  V  V  V  V  V  V  /      King’s Computer Management, Inc.        <   0  0  0  0  0  0  0  (o   1633 NE Hwy 10      VVV              Y                 612-784-8042 (voice)                      VVV Heddon Lucky 13 leopard: the lure doesn’t catch fish, fish catch the lure. Opinions? I’m married. I am not allowed to have opinions.

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Jim Stuart writes: On the other hand, tying on bugs in low light (hell, in any light) is getting harder as I approach geezerhood and I’m thinking about trying those little snaps that are made for flies.  Anyone had any experience with them?

Yeah, I tried those some years back. I found them too big for trout flies, too small for bass flies, and too wimpy in general for the rough-and-tumble, cast-to-the-tangles fishing in my area. Besides, you’ve got to tie those on, too, and they’re just as hard as any small fly, and more difficult to handle if your hands are stiff. JL 8-Wt Editor

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Question:

My girlfriend (a novice fisherperson) will be in Telluride mid-June for the Bluegrass Festival and she wants to do some fishing in the area.  Is there a fly store in the town worth sending her to where they can help with her fly selection and/or good places to fish.  Non-serious replies can be directed to alt.rec.erotica. Thanks in advance,         EMM — Edwin M. Maynard                          Department of Bioengineering phone: (801) 581-3817                     Moran Laboratories fax: (801) 585-5361                       506 Biopolymer Research Building                                           Salt Lake City, Utah 84112 Play hard, play fair, but most importantly just play.

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I do not recall a fly shop in town.  However, I would call Scott Fly Rods, who are now located in that town and ask them for either guides or info. They may have a B&B destination place in the area.  I thought I recalled seeing a flyer for that. Hope this helps –jim *                                                     *

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edwin- she can go to Olympic Sports (which in 91-92 timeframe sold Orvis equip.). typically at this time of year the run off is still pretty high in the San Miguel River (which runs through town and down valley). The river also experiences a huge impact thbluegrass weekend due to a 1000% increase in the population fo telluride during the festival. the fishing in the san miguel is a lot of fun, and olympic sports should be able to give her a good fly selection (and a guide if necessary). she could also check out alta, trout, or priest lakes which are in the area. -ted

: My girlfriend (a novice fisherperson) will be in Telluride mid-June for : the Bluegrass Festival and she wants to do some fishing in the area.  Is : there a fly store in the town worth sending her to where they can help : with her fly selection and/or good places to fish.  Non-serious replies : can be directed to alt.rec.erotica. : Thanks in advance, :       EMM : — : Edwin M. Maynard                          Department of Bioengineering : phone: (801) 581-3817                     Moran Laboratories : fax: (801) 585-5361                       506 Biopolymer Research Building :                                         Salt Lake City, Utah 84112 : Play hard, play fair, but most importantly just play.

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