Question:

Can anybody help with my planned RV trip from Vancouver to Mexico? I would be obliged if any readers could provide me with good routes, places to visit and decent fishing spots along the way. Additionally can anyone recommend a reputable RV rental company in the USA or Canada? Thank you.                                Pattayaman, England Before you buy.

Check out http://www.prd.state.or.us/ for help on planning the Oregon chunk of your trip. And let me know if you need mroe info. Thanks. — Chris Havel Oregon Parks and Recreation Dept. www.prd.state.or.us

Response:

Where in Mexico do you want to go? How much time do you want to spend? Is fishing your main interest? What kind of fishing? Other interests? A "one way" rental, picking up in one country and dropping off in another is going to be very difficult: impossible in Mexico.

  Yup.   You might have to fly into Vancover then come down to Seattle and then rent an RV, returning in say in San Dieago. Which would require one of the larger firms (Cruise America, etc). Anything other then one of the large national firms (Cruise Canada, Cruse America, etc) would require you to return the RV to the point of rental. — RV and Camping FAQ http://kendaco.telebyte.com/rlindber/rv   If Windows is the answer I would really like to know what the question is

Response:

Can anybody help with my planned RV trip from Vancouver to Mexico? I would be obliged if any readers could provide me with good routes, places to visit and decent fishing spots along the way. Additionally can anyone recommend a reputable RV rental company in the USA or Canada? Thank you.                                Pattayaman, England Before you buy.

Response:

Where in Mexico do you want to go? How much time do you want to spend? Is fishing your main interest? What kind of fishing? Other interests? A "one way" rental, picking up in one country and dropping off in another is going to be very difficult: impossible in Mexico. Ed Kipling – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anybody help with my planned RV trip from Vancouver to Mexico?                                Pattayaman, England Before you buy.

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Question:

Try the white mountains near Apache country. When are you going? Buddy of mine hit the white and black river at around 8000 feet or so in mid March, and streams were high from runoff. These rivers have the fabled apache trout, which appears to resemble a brown trout after a slipped disk operation. Nice looking fish. High water in March skunked our trip, but beautiful country, and i hope to go back. Alex Pacek – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – what are the best spots in az for a flyfishing/backpacking trip?  and not the grand canyon.  thanks

Response:

what are the best spots in az for a flyfishing/backpacking trip?  and not the grand canyon.  thanks

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Question:

Hi, I need some help by experienced fly fishers and I think this is the right place. I live in the eastern italian Alps and am looking for a good way to catch the european whitefish, as they say it swims somewhere here. The matter is: I don’t simply know how to catch it. I thought "why not a fly?", yeah, but which fly? Then I am running into fantasy. I’m sure someone out there has experience on the matter. Thanks in advance, Bepo

Response:

Bepo I need some help by experienced fly fishers and I think this is Bepo the right place. I live in the eastern italian Alps and am Bepo looking for a good way to catch the european whitefish, as they Bepo say it swims somewhere here. The matter is: I don’t simply know Bepo how to catch it. I thought "why not a fly?", yeah, but which Bepo fly? Then I am running into fantasy. I’m sure someone out there Bepo has experience on the matter. I’m no expert (well that’s a start for an advice ), but the Swedish fly Superpuppan was originally developed for whitefish fishing, although not in your waters. You might still want to check it out and try it in your local caddis colors: http://www.virtualflybox.com/f0100/f0173.html Note that the hackle is cut off from over and below the hook shank. Also, use a high-quality hackle so that the fly hangs in the surface. — Jarmo Hurri address or apply rot13 to header email address.

Response:

Hi, I need some help by experienced fly fishers and I think this is the right place. I live in the eastern italian Alps and am looking for a good way to catch the european whitefish, as they say it swims somewhere here. The matter is: I don’t simply know how to catch it. I thought "why not a fly?", yeah, but which fly? Then I am running into fantasy. I’m sure someone out there has experience on the matter. Thanks in advance, Bepo

I have twice fished for this fish ( Coregonus laveratus), in some large German lakes.  On both occasions, I was with an experienced local fisherman in a boat and equipment known as a "hegene" was used.  This is basically a special paternoster system for jigging, using ( five) nymphs as droppers. Mostly it is used by professional fishermen. The only information I can offer you is in German.  Here is a picture of the equipment used; http://www.hegenenfischen.de/Hegene/Bild_Hegene/bild_hegene.html Normally a very sensitive fly rod is used, and a centrepin reel.  Here are some pictures; http://www.angelprofi.at/Die%20Renke.htm#Die%20Hegene Renke ( whitefish) are considered a great delicacy, especially smoked, but are more or less useless as sport fish.  I assume you wish to catch them to eat? It is also apparently possible to catch them using "normal" jigging equipment and small slim jigs.  In many places they are also fished for using natural bait ( mainly minnows) also usually on paternoster systems. TL MC

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"Mike" shared a nice experience fishing for Whitefish. I have twice fished for this fish (Coregonus laveratus), in some large German lakes. <Snipped, great information Up here in the Pacific Northwest we have The mountain whitefish (Prosopium williamsoni) and on at least two trout rivers, the Deschutes and the Crooked River in Oregon, whitefish have considerably larger populations than trout.  The population estimate for the mainstream Deschutes River is 5,000 whitefish per mile. Since I release just about everything I catch these days, I think they are a nice addition to most of the fisheries around here.  They seem to take the same patterns as the trout and I have heard of some patterns tied just for the whitefish, although I have never seen one and I can’t seem to find one on the web today. Chris Fanning

Response:

 Up here in the Pacific Northwest we have The mountain whitefish (Prosopium williamsoni) and on at least two trout rivers, the Deschutes and the Crooked River in Oregon, whitefish have considerably larger populations than trout.  The population estimate for the mainstream Deschutes River is 5,000 whitefish per mile. Since I release just about everything I catch these days, I think they are a nice addition to most of the fisheries around here.  They seem to take the same patterns as the trout and I have heard of some patterns tied just for the whitefish, although I have never seen one and I can’t seem to find one on the web today.

I think they’re fun to catch. JeffC has a well deserved reputation as ROFF’s Whitefish expert. RW has a couple of Whitefish patterns. Personally I’m glad that Whitefish seem to be starting to get a better reputation as a game fish. Although some anglers will still throw them in the bushes, this is much less common. Last Fall on the ranch section of Henry’s Fork, the Whitefish would feed right next to the trout. I caught a couple very large Whitefish on dries. On the Madison, Warren and myself found what must of been close to a hundred Whitefish feeding on Trico’s in the outside curve of a section of rapids. Willi

Response:

On the Deschutes below Warm Springs we caught many whitefish while nymphing for rainbows. The Gold Ribbed Hare’s Ear (# 12 medium weighted) was my fly of choice when the trout weren’t rising. It seems when we caught one "snooter" in a riffle, we would catch several more in the same spot. They seemed to congregate together. My guess…. And, on the Weber river in Utah 25 or 30 years ago (good trout river), I witnessed a fishermen taking whitefish on a small ( # 14 or smaller) very light colored cream nymph. He was using a spinning rod combo and fishing a school (sp?) of whitefish. Guy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Up here in the Pacific Northwest we have The mountain whitefish (Prosopium williamsoni) and on at least two trout rivers, the Deschutes and the Crooked River in Oregon, whitefish have considerably larger populations than trout.  The population estimate for the mainstream Deschutes River is 5,000 whitefish per mile. Since I release just about everything I catch these days, I think they are a nice addition to most of the fisheries around here.  They seem to take the same patterns as the trout and I have heard of some patterns tied just for the whitefish, although I have never seen one and I can’t seem to find one on the web today. I think they’re fun to catch. JeffC has a well deserved reputation as ROFF’s Whitefish expert. RW has a couple of Whitefish patterns. Personally I’m glad that Whitefish seem to be starting to get a better reputation as a game fish. Although some anglers will still throw them in the bushes, this is much less common. Last Fall on the ranch section of Henry’s Fork, the Whitefish would feed right next to the trout. I caught a couple very large Whitefish on dries. On the Madison, Warren and myself found what must of been close to a hundred Whitefish feeding on Trico’s in the outside curve of a section of rapids. Willi

Response:

The European whitefish and the mountain whitefish of the North American west are in different genera, so parallels drawn or assumed to exist between them (in the absence of first-hand experience) are suspect in my book. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Last Fall on the ranch section of Henry’s Fork, the Whitefish would feed right next to the trout. I caught a couple very large Whitefish on dries. On the Madison, Warren and myself found what must of been close to a hundred Whitefish feeding on Trico’s in the outside curve of a section of rapids.

I caught all mine on nymphs – none on dries.  At first I just assumed it was because of how the whitefish mouth is shaped and angled, but you and others have caught them on dries, so obviously they’re able to take flies off the surface.

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I think they’re fun to catch. JeffC has a well deserved reputation as ROFF’s Whitefish expert. RW has a couple of Whitefish patterns.

Chamois nymphs work great, if you don’t mind approaching dangerously close to baitfishing. Copper Johns are also deadly, but they’re unethical, too. Galvanic action. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

On the Deschutes below Warm Springs we caught many whitefish while nymphing for rainbows. The Gold Ribbed Hare’s Ear (# 12 medium weighted) was my fly of choice when the trout weren’t rising. It seems when we caught one "snooter" in a riffle, we would catch several more in the same spot. They seemed to congregate together. My guess…. ……

On the very upper Deschutes (above Crane Prairie) the rainbows seem to segregate themselves.  Most runs, pools and riffles you know will contain only rainbows.  Brookies and whitefish, however, tend to share pools. There are a number of deep brook trout holes from which I’ll pull three or four whitefish for each brookie.  I used to think of the whitefish as a sort of admission fee–something you just had to go through, to get past, in order to hook a trout.  In latter years, I’ve come to enjoy catching them as much as the brookies, especially since, on average, they’re a good deal larger.  Powerful fighters, too, and when smoked, fine eating. JR

Response:

http://www.virtualflybox.com/f0100/f0173.html

Ok thanks, more or less I have an idea, an emerging caddis can work. I am going to find out which caddises dwell in the place, so that I can choose the best colours. I was thinking also to a pond olive, they live in that lake and probably whitefish eats it. Bepo

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I have twice fished for this fish ( Coregonus laveratus)

C. lavaretus is the species italians introduced in their lakes during the XIX century. The only information I can offer you is in German.

In two weeks with a dictionary I can read nearly everything (nearly). I assume you wish to catch them to eat?

I will try to catch it to find out if I am able to do it, I don’t like to eat freshwater fish, they are few in number, overfished and not so good at taste, it’s better to let ‘em live. Except for invasive alloctonous species, like rainbow trout and brown trout. Bepo

Response:

The European whitefish and the mountain whitefish of the North American west are in different genera, so parallels drawn or assumed to exist between them (in the absence of first-hand experience) are suspect in my

book. addition, none of them belong to the same genera as the mountain whitefish, bluegills, red eared sunfish, smallmouth bass, rock bass, or black crappie. I have caught all of the above (as well as many others) on elk hair caddis, pt nymphs, pass lakes, grhe, pickett pins, wooly buggers, ants, and hoppers (as well as many others).  Parallels drawn or assumed to exist between them are safe enough in MY book. Wolfgang

Response:

RW wrote "Copper Johns are also deadly, but they’re unethical, too. Galvanic action. " — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ Damn! and I just tied up 2 dozen of them!  I wish you would tell me what flies were unethical before I tie them up I suppose –  to be pure and all – If it catches fish, its probably unethical as a general rule. jh

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Damn! and I just tied up 2 dozen of them!  I wish you would tell me what flies were unethical before I tie them up

If you use anything other than your snout or paws, it’s unethical. <g — Charlie…

Response:

Personally I’m glad that Whitefish seem to be starting to get a better reputation as a game fish. Although some anglers will still throw them in the bushes, this is much less common.

I spent a few days floating the Big Horn with a local guide who grew up on the reservation there.  He sure knew his river, and boy could he handle that boat with authority.   Occasionally I’d hookup with a WFish and the guide seem to get extremely upset about it, I mean really mad.  I’ll never forget him taking those large suckers and huckin’ ‘em as far as he could onto the nearest bank, into the bushes.  He’d call them trash fish and pontificate how they were a disgrace to the fishery…. To this day, I still feel bad about that.  It just didn’t set well with me at all. K

Response:

<SNIP Occasionally I’d hookup with a WFish and the guide seem to get extremely upset about it, I mean really mad.  I’ll never forget him taking those large suckers and huckin’ ‘em as far as he could onto the nearest bank, into the bushes.  He’d call them trash fish and pontificate how they were a disgrace to the fishery…. To this day, I still feel bad about that.  It just didn’t set well with me at all.

Years ago, literally tons of Grayling were caught from certain rivers, and thrown up on the bank. Lots of pike were also destroyed in this way.  There are still one or two stupid and short-sighted people who consider grayling a pest. Apart from that, something rather puzzles me.  If people catch and release, what does it matter what they catch and release? Or is it that there is some indefinable but somehow much greater kudos involved in catching certain salmonids? There are plenty of other fish which are just as challenging to catch, some a lot more so than trout etc. As a general rule, I keep sizeable takeable fish I catch, but I consider others as a bonus usually, ( even if I am obliged to release them), and not as pests. I just like catching fish, I am not overly fussy what type. Just curiosity, no wish to start a C&R debate. TL MC

Response:

Years ago, literally tons of Grayling were caught from certain rivers, and thrown up on the bank. Lots of pike were also destroyed in this way. There are still one or two stupid and short-sighted people who consider grayling a pest.

I

Question:

Been tying flies for a couple of years.  Here in S.C. and also in G.A. fly tying hooks are about as hard to find as hens teeth.  I like to stand in front of a wall of hooks and look at them while scratching my head.  This is half the fun of buying hooks to me.  But these damn Mustad hooks are about all anyone carries.   Do these thing rust overnight?  Or am I doing something wrong? I open my fly box after a day fishing so they can air dry, sometimes soak my flies in Scotchgard (which I am convinced is useless), and generally try to assure they are dry before storing.  But rust they do… What the deal?? Patrick  

Response:

But these damn Mustad hooks are about all anyone carries.   Do these thing rust overnight?  Or am I doing something wrong? I open my fly box after a day fishing so they can air dry, sometimes soak my flies in Scotchgard (which I am convinced is useless), and generally try to assure they are dry before storing.  But rust they do… What the deal??

Boyhowdy, I ain’t heard that one before. I’ve been tying for about 35 years – on Mustads mostly. They’ve  had their problems with quality control: sizing, hook-to- hook uniformity, sharpness, closed eyes, open eyes, temper, and other assorted defects, but I ain’t never had a problem with rust. Don’t know. Glad to be of help :^).

Response:

You obviously are not using a stainless model. Try the 34007 model in your favorite size.

Response:

Been tying flies for a couple of years.  Here in S.C. and also in G.A. fly tying hooks are about as hard to find as hens teeth.  I like to stand in front of a wall of hooks and look at them while scratching my head.  This is half the fun of buying hooks to me.  But these damn Mustad hooks are about all anyone carries. Do these thing rust overnight?  Or am I doing something wrong? I open my fly box after a day fishing so they can air dry, sometimes soak my flies in Scotchgard (which I am convinced is useless), and generally try to assure they are dry before storing.  But rust they do… What the deal?? Patrick

Haven’t had that problem with Mustad. Do you put them away wet or do you dry them out on your patch first? I have heard that if you get your box wet or put your flies back in the box wet that they will rust. Jon

Response:

Patrick: You might try tucking one or two of those small dessicant packets in your fly box–the kind that come in some food packages or in boxes of electronic gear. Or consider buying other hook brands through catalogs.  Dick Talleur’s last book, <Talleur’s Basic Fly Tying, has a brief hook substition chart  in the appendix (Daiichi, Mustad, Orvis, Tiemco, Partridge, Eagle Claw, et al.) Also, the Tach-it box, availabe at most stores, has detachable magnetic backing that lets you remove all your flies and dry them on a warm or sunny surface. Works.

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-) Hi Ken, You’ve got it all wrong! I called Tim a gentleman in another thread, although it was to do with the same subject. I never said he was *the* gentleman in the NG, but *a* gentleman for forgiving Max for what everyone else would have seen him hung drawn and quartered.  Tim has given out a lot of flack and certainly has taken some, not the least from you and J.P. He’s no angel but he is a GENTLEMAN for turning a blind eye to all Max has done.

I agree, but I wasn’t talking about you.  :-) I went back and found out who it was, it was "Mr G", Here’s the excerpt: "The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.  " Now, do you believe that "the flow of [Tim's] persona" wins any moment of any thread?  He’s usually the first one in there swearing and cursing and spitting foul words. Written with no malice aforethought (a novelty for this NG)

None taken nor given. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

    I     Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words?     What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started     because Tim had to resort to swearing.             – Ken     —     Not speaking for anyone but myself       No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the   "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all   the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is   bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who   doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too   much drugs.  :-)

Blah Blah Blah, ENOUGH.  Prove that you know how to read by going back and re-examining Mr G’s (aka the Professional Sportsman) post. THEN take enough time to let it sink in that your first interpretation of his post is about 180 degrees out and that you’ve been arguing against someone who clearly agrees with you. Pentium inside eh? -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

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    I     Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? Blah Blah Blah, ENOUGH.  Prove that you know how to read by going back and re-examining Mr G’s (aka the Professional Sportsman) post. THEN take enough time to let it sink in that your first interpretation of his post is about 180 degrees out and that you’ve been arguing against someone who clearly agrees with you.

If so, I’m wrong.  Please read what I first wrote (what I’ve left unsnipped above). I asked him for clarification about what he wrote. Note the question marks…I’ll stop now so that I don’t turn and begin to spit foul words.  :-) GRRR,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

: No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the : "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all : the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is : bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who : doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too : much drugs.  :-) Sheesh Ken, read the post again.  By overlooking the actual message Gherke’s post, you are propogating an attitude.  He did not say what you claim he said. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

: No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the : "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all : the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is : bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who : doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too : much drugs.  :-) Sheesh Ken, read the post again.  By overlooking the actual message Gherke’s post, you are propogating an attitude.  He did not say what you claim he said.

I stand corrected.  I DID ask for a clarification, but then the thread wandered and I forgot the starting point.  There are just too many posts to try to keep up on all of them. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My displeasure regards the pure, foul mouthing being allowed to permeate into this group.  It just isn’t right. I can imagine (bear with me) of your story about the fellow that taught you a lot astream recently Tim.  Let us all try and imagine therefore; the following. There is this sage looking gentleman with a pipe, tying on another fly as this kid watch in great admiration his skill in catching trout with such a long, graceful looking wand.  So the child walks up to the man and from behind him as his back is turned to the bank, he says, "Hey Mr.? Whatcha doing?" The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.

Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

  There are just too many posts to try to keep up on all of them.            - Ken

How about adopting the sensible policy of only replying to the threads that you _do_ "keep up on".  Failing that, how about warning readers when you are replying to an article you have not read or thought about… cheers,         -tony — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

Tim I don’t see how it is possible to "moderate" the group except by general consensus, ie. if someone oversteps the mark then the group excludes them to the extent that they give up and go elsewhere. If someone feels strongly enough to post a "fuck off" then OK, as long as it isn’t gratuitous. If you are insistent on creating a FAQ, (I don’t really consider it necessary, personally), then keep it to "frequently asked questions", why try and have rules that are unenforceable? General consensus will suffice. Personally, I still have reservations about Mr. Winters’ continued involvement with the group, time will tell if I am on my own on this one but, in my opinion, some valuable members have left as a result of his continued presence and this irks me. Maybe a few less Brits would suit some members of the group? Your apparent new found "sycophancy" worries me almost as much as the original "misdemeanours"! — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded) or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected) — To Max.  I hope that you’re still there. Further I hope you will follow up to this question and help us sort out what ROFF is so that what has happened to us will not happen to others.   The way I am viewing all of this [on this glorious Colorado morning] is that since we have no rules (written or otherwise) governing this newsgroup, than nobody could have possibily violated anything. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

Response:

Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded)

Even more fundamental question, who decides what is "un-gentlemenly"? There are many ways to be vulgar and offensive without swearing. Is it okay to say: "F*ck off" "BS" "Bite me" "Bite my rod" I have not used an "offensive" word in the list above, the meaning is still there. If we say that none of these is acceptable, who is going to enforce it.  You say you will leave if this group becomes moderated, but short of moderation this decision is unenforceable. Let me try to put this in terms you will understand since I hear that you are a programmer.  You have coding style requirements. With the requirements alone, nothing changes, with moderate enforcement you get some change, but mostly only after the enforcement has happened upon your unfortunate soul, or you have heavy enforcement where if you don’t code properly your code doesn’t compile and won’t work until you fix the error. If you want "posting" standards the same will occur.  Write down a list of rules and don’t enforce and it means nothing. Enforce heavily and it will work, but you will have a moderator sitting there saying yah or nay to every post. Is this what you want?  I’m not in favor of moderation, but this is an academic exercise if you think writing down rules will change anything. or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected)

This is status quo. I think the only way to "change" things is through individual policing. Think about how you personally are responding and whether or not you want to be seen the way your post makes you look.  There will always be abusive people on usenet, it’s your decision about how to respond to them.  For example, if someone, oh let’s see, calls someone a "fucking moron" you can respond in kind and get in a name-calling contest or ignore the post, or just snip out the line and continue with a semi-constructive argument.  It may not change the abusive poster, but at least things won’t turn into a complete brawl and you won’t be acting like a 2nd grader. I don’t know if this helped or not, but at least it made me feel slightly better (CRAPPY weekend). Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

Umm…. ..are we gonna forget the charter and FAQ whilst everyone keeps pissing and moaning about Mr. G and what Tim REALLY meant and the rest of this Blah, Blah? I thought the "group" was serious about trying to get on track? Why don’t the limited number of you that want to continue griping about all the side issues find a chatroom to meet in and hammer this out between yourselves???

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Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded) or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected) — To Max.  I hope that you’re still there. Further I hope you will follow up to this question and help us sort out what ROFF is so that what has happened to us will not happen to others.   The way I am viewing all of this [on this glorious Colorado morning] is that since we have no rules (written or otherwise) governing this newsgroup, than nobody could have possibily violated anything. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel… ROFF Charter  Purpose of NG  Goals of NG  Rules for posting to NG  Profanity  Selling  Attachments  When to respond to Writer rather than Group FAQ’s  Equipment  Rods and Reels  Float Devices  Nets  Vests  Lines  Leaders  Accessories  Clothing  Rain Gear  Hats  Waders/Boots  Guides  Tipping  Personal Experience Stories  Tying (see ROFFT) PERSONAL BIOs  Regular Frequent Posters  Known Commercial Posters  Known Frequently Medicated Posters

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<nice post "Any fish bite if you got good bait… I’m a going fishin’ too".<g — Charlie…

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Nice to see you back.  I still do not agree with most of what you say though. Chris Brown – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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<MERCILESS CHOP    The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track <MERCILESS CHOP   Hey, isn’t that what the investigator joker said too?  Anyway, I   can’t imagine what the hell this "back on track" acually means.  It   always was a bunch of us jackass fishers talking amongst ourselves about   whaterver we please and it always will be.   My observations of these groups (since their conception) is that for   every person who takes them (too) seriously, there are a thousand (and   climbing daily) who don’t.  If anyone wants to get with a group of   folks that are all as serious as they are should get into a   listserv – I’ll be happy to explain via email what this means.   FAQ’s for these groups are a great concept, but a waste of time.   99.44% of the time the only people aware of the FAQ are people who   don’t need it – and FAQ’s certainly don’t squelch the repetitive   discussions. cheers,   -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

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Q:  What’s the difference between Tim Walker’s head and a buttplug? A:  The buttplug comes out once in a while. Sorry, just had to complete the symmetry. I’ll help out on the FAQ, but someone, really anyone, has to set out a real and complete first draft of a Table of Contents.  It won’t be the final one and it won’t be right, but it will give a starting point.  I could suggest a list of 10 or so names for this job, but you guys probably know who you are.  Any volunteers?  We can’t really start without it. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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What is it about flyfishing that creates such unbridled passion ? About this damned newsgroup ?

No offense, and with all due respect, it’s you. Swearing at people who don’t agree with you, calling people names when they don’t agree with you, doing whatever pleases you to someone who doesn’t agree with you is what makes this newsgroup so violent. If you REALLY are trying to turn over a new leaf then I’m willing to let bygones be bygones, but if you think that simply making a FAQ is going to change anything by itself you are far too optimistic. So, Jimbo – Whomever had May 22 on the Skeeter returns pool, gets the warm Molson.

Hey, give credit where credit is due, it was my pool.  :-) Although NOBODY was guessing this soon, you usually wait at least a couple of weeks. The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track and with high hopes of a much better ROFF for all of us in the very near future.

<honest question Maybe you can define what a "better" ROFF looks like. – No political rants? – No ethical rants? – No swearing? – No name-calling? Unless you do some or all of those, what will change? </honest question Clean slate ?    Any AYE’S ?

Sure, I’ll be happy to start over, again it’s mostly up to you though.  Your first swearing rant over someone C&R-ing a fish and we’ll be right back where we started. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RFD: A NEW FAQ For Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly "FAQ – Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly" What the FAQ ? <g (i.e. Why…? Anecdotal, but real…) Hierarchy Etiquette ?  (Recommend None. <G) Rules governing SPAM Common Questions (Equipment, Setup, Places to go) Endless Threads 1. C&R Basic Position – [Ralph or delegates Can write ?] 2. C&K Basic position – [Jon Cook or ??? can write ?] Frequent Posters Personal BIO’S Moe Skeeter – Pigheaded Buttmunch C&K homebrewer….(We’d write our own) Fishing Links etc. Do you see where this could go ? Do you see how this could be useful and prevent any hard feelings in the future ? How a newbie can get answered immediately ? Links and info and organization..

The general info part of a FAQ is certainly a good idea.  I question the ability of a FAQ to regulate etiquette or to make a difference in the "endless threads".  The problem is that veterans already know the info and those who need the info rarely read FAQs. I would be willing to help with a general info section, but the other sections are basically futile in the chaotic USENet. Tell you what, if you can get an agreement on what a "better" ROFF looks like I’ll reconsider. I think you are underestimating the variety of viewpoints people have here. Good Luck,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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_____ Well Tim, I know nothing about this person Max that is supposed to be a rascal, but your arguments are of a reasonable man.  Of course, personally, I like most of the men in this group.  The only reason why there aren’t more ladies involved here is because . . . and then it ceases to be interesting regarding "attention spans and talking fishing?" Not important issue right now.  But I accept your reasoning. My displeasure regards the pure, foul mouthing being allowed to permeate into this group.  It just isn’t right. I can imagine (bear with me) of your story about the fellow that taught you a lot astream recently Tim.  Let us all try and imagine therefore; the following. There is this sage looking gentleman with a pipe, tying on another fly as this kid watch in great admiration his skill in catching trout with such a long, graceful looking wand.  So the child walks up to the man and from behind him as his back is turned to the bank, he says, "Hey Mr.? Whatcha doing?" The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.

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<lot of good stuff snipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I hope everyone has a wonderful Memorial day weekend. I have a couple people in mind that I’ll need to remember hard this year…. You get a line…I’ll get a pole…Honey. You get a line…I’ll get a pole….bay-beee… You get a line…I’ll get a pole, We’ll go down to the crawdad hole. Honey, Bay- be mine…. Your pal, — TimW

tim…you ‘da man…. ;^) btw…"SECRET" flies in the mail come tuesday, just finished tying another batch of ‘em. -walt

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tim…you ‘da man…. ;^)

Yeah! — Bill

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ROFF Charter         Purpose of NG         Goals of NG         Rules for posting to NG                 Profanity                 Selling                 Attachments                 When to respond to Writer rather than Group FAQ’s         Equipment                 Rods and Reels                 Float Devices                 Nets                 Vests                 Lines                 Leaders                 Accessories         Clothing                 Rain Gear                 Hats                 Waders/Boots         Guides                 Tipping                 Personal Experience Stories         Tying (see ROFFT) PERSONAL BIOs         Regular Frequent Posters         Known Commercial Posters         Known Frequently Medicated Posters

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Good start!  I’ve added a suggestion or two below.

: ROFF Charter :       Purpose of NG :       Goals of NG :       Rules for posting to NG :               Profanity :               Selling :               Attachments :               When to respond to Writer rather than Group : FAQ’s :       Equipment :               Rods and Reels :               Float Devices :               Nets :               Vests :               Lines :               Leaders :               Accessories :       Clothing :               Rain Gear :               Hats :               Waders/Boots :       Guides :               Tipping :               Personal Experience Stories :       Tying (see ROFFT)         General                Why are they picking on Orvis?                What do they have against Jeep Grand Cherokees?                Who is Brian Keith? : PERSONAL BIOs :       Regular Frequent Posters :       Known Commercial Posters :       Known Frequently Medicated Posters :       — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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I Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.     – Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Ken, It seems to me that you are deliberately continuing to try and fuel this smoldering fire. Lighten up….. –Walt

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I Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.     – Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself Ken, It seems to me that you are deliberately continuing to try and fuel this smoldering fire.

No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-) Lighten up…..

Nah, I’m always too light, maybe if I called someone an imbecilic dweeb I could get in on the really good fights.  :-) Later,      - Ken P.S.  No hard feelings, I noted the smiley and please note mine in return. — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-)

Hi Ken, You’ve got it all wrong! I called Tim a gentleman in another thread, although it was to do with the same subject. I never said he was *the* gentleman in the NG, but *a* gentleman for forgiving Max for what everyone else would have seen him hung drawn and quartered.  Tim has given out a lot of flack and certainly has taken some, not the least from you and J.P. He’s no angel but he is a GENTLEMAN for turning a blind eye to all Max has done.  I’ve no doubt some of Tim’s comments in the future will be succinct, curt, bombastic, witty, even vitriolic, but always well founded on solid principle. Can you match up to such a guy in eloquence and character? Written with no malice aforethought (a novelty for this NG) Regards, — Bill

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I am disturbed by these recent events. Restless.  Sleepless.  Bothered. What is it about flyfishing that creates such unbridled passion ? About this damned newsgroup ? IMHO – Max Whittington is, I am certain (now more than ever) a good man who made an honest mistake.  Lord knows, I have.   Moreover he made a mistake about something he is passionate about.  Lord knows, I have done that too.  Have you ? I have read carefully every post has made here and I see something different than what has been revealed by these events. First off he is helpful to the beginner.  Cordial and a gentleman.  Sincere.  He is also a hell of an investigator <g, this might be useful when the REAL loons come around <g. We can not all get mad and quit when something bad happens and I am not setting any example.  I am very sorry for that.  If we all acted like this…then there were none. —- Like the constant upstream migration of an emerging insect, with all of the odds against it, we *must* press upstream and solve this problem…. —- So, Jimbo – Whomever had May 22 on the Skeeter returns pool, gets the warm Molson. I can not leave the group like this.  It sucks.  It’s mean spirited and hurting.  And it is only Qayaniskatsi – Life out of balance. I do not sense mean hearts among us, anywhere, do you ? —- I have 2 serious issues.  Please bear with me The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track and with high hopes of a much better ROFF for all of us in the very near future. —- First off…everyone…please go to www.dejanews.com and read the stuff Max posts.  He’s a good Joe, IMO (not that MY opinion is worth a ratty waterlogged adams). It is true that I felt violated by the background check and the email to my employer, but he woke my eyes up in a huge way. It may NOT be safe to have an unchecked opinion in cyberspace.  You too might want to consider this.  I am hoping to find out just what in the world is out there easily for people to find and I intend to ask Max to help me. Friends… You take the bad with the good, but you look for the good… …and I see a hell of a lot of it in that man. I challenge you to read *all* of his posts and not agree. I know (feel) that something positive is coming out of this and in the end I predict that not only will Max be a good friend to a lot of us, but that ROFF will be better, stronger and more organized place to deal with the hectic, eclectic and sometimes strange internet demands placed upon it. — Let’s use this as an opportunity to grow.  Individually, collectively… — That was my first serious issue and I am serious. Can we forgive and forget by remembering [who we are]…Royal Order of the Brothers of the Bugchuckers… Number two will just be ‘#2′  <g if we can not. Clean slate ?    Any AYE’S ? Part 2. RFD: A NEW FAQ For Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly Request for Discussion… We need a new FAQ for ROFF.  It is high time.   I believe that none of this would have happened if we had one and will take at some of the heat if for this alone. I’ve been around long enough that it’s at least partly my laziness that we don’t have the damned thing done yet ! John Ferriera, where are you ? Consider this…. The C&R thread has been active for at least 7-8 years ?  It has started/ended/mutated so many times that it’s *amazing*.  This can *only* speak to its relevence of it as a valid subject in our sport, or at least to a buncha people here as it relates to our sport (I am in this group that feels that it needs discussing). That, however, is *not* the point (only an example)…please view it only as such. The point is, is that it is maddening to have to justify its (the threads) existence over and over and over, like some of us have had to.  Why should I feel guilty discussing C&R ad infinitum around here ?  (or cussing or swearing…).  We have been around and around on this and I have a solid proposal. To use Max’s example: Assume that this is a club, only its like no other club in the world.  We have no limitations on membership. No education requirements or dress code.  We have no choice in the matter, really, unless we moderate the group, because this group exists in the Universe of the internet we must treat it as a subset of this Universe.   If the group becomes moderated, well…that’s fine…but then please point me to the unmoderated one. The FAQ *WILL* give credence to and justify these ongoing threads so that they will not be the targets of trivialization or condemnation.  Moreover the FAQ will set the rules of fair play in ROFF that we will all have to agree to, or move on. Certain things will be covered in the FAQ, such as "Opinions on Floatants". Hopefully, this will grow with relevent information and all of the info, such as Albolene, secret formulas and the history of George Gehrke and his product on can get thoroughly and objectively covered there once. Instead of saying "This group sucks…can we change it ?", We could say…"Uh…this part of the FAQ sucks, can we change it …?". Thus I propose a *MEMBER DETERMINED* FAQ having a "table of contents" something like: "FAQ – Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly" What the FAQ ? <g (i.e. Why…? Anecdotal, but real…) Hierarchy Etiquette ?  (Recommend None. <G) Rules governing SPAM Common Questions (Equipment, Setup, Places to go) Endless Threads 1. C&R Basic Position – [Ralph or delegates Can write ?] 2. C&K Basic position – [Jon Cook or ??? can write ?] Frequent Posters Personal BIO’S Moe Skeeter – Pigheaded Buttmunch C&K homebrewer….(We’d write our own) Fishing Links etc. Do you see where this could go ? Do you see how this could be useful and prevent any hard feelings in the future ? How a newbie can get answered immediately ? Links and info and organization.. IOW – Shouldn’t we get our collective shit together a little ? Vroman hates me for a very similar misunderstanding…we simply don’t agree on what ROFF is, but how can either of us be right if NOBODY knows what ROFF is ? By end of summer…let’s say…we all agree on what ROFF is…DEAL ? It’s something to consider…. Max, I hope you’re still with us ? Comments ? Peace. No hard feelings…. I hope everyone has a wonderful Memorial day weekend. I have a couple people in mind that I’ll need to remember hard this year…. You get a line…I’ll get a pole…Honey. You get a line…I’ll get a pole….bay-beee… You get a line…I’ll get a pole, We’ll go down to the crawdad hole. Honey, Bay- be mine…. Your pal, — TimW What is ROFF ?

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Question:

Anyone out there have any experience using the Richardson Chest Fly Box? I currently fish using a chest pack (I hate vests), but it’s too big, heavy and bulky and interferes with my od handling. The chest box system looks very light, simple and compact. I was hoping someone might share their experiences using one. Thanks. Dave McCarty "We are all alike in our promises. It is only in our deeds that we differ." – Moliere

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 :bulky and interferes with my od handling. The chest box system Interested to hear more about your "od handling"!! Peter Kay

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Anyone out there have any experience using the Richardson Chest Fly Box?

I have a small Richardson Fly Box, it has two drawers.  I use it mainly while fishing trout  ponds. I also have an F.O.W. box, four drawer model, that I use on streams. Of the two – the F.O.W. Box is much better made.  The fit and finish, if you will, far out shine that of the  Richardson.   The F.O.W. box is simply much better made.  I would recommend them over the Richardson. Another company that you might look at is the Downs Fly Box.  It is plastic, but has some interesting features, like being able to change drawers and is very affordable.  They have a WWW site too. A.G.W. Manchester, NH

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I was wondering about Flies On Water? Can anyone tell me how to reach them and get a catalog. I’ve seen the Downstream Chest Box site, but the plastic boxes just don’t appeal to me. I do like the idea, though, of having preloaded boxes and just switching them using a removeable hinge pin. Thanks.

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Anyone out there have any experience using the Richardson Chest Fly Box? I currently fish using a chest pack (I hate vests), but it’s too big, heavy and bulky and interferes with my od handling. The chest box system looks very light, simple and compact. I was hoping someone might share their experiences using one. Thanks. Dave McCarty "We are all alike in our promises. It is only in our deeds that we differ." – Moliere I have used a Richardson four tray box for years and like it very much. The flies are right in front of you…the trays fold out horizontal…less chance of dropping flies in the water…and no chance of dropping the fly box into the water (can be a real problem in cold weather). It is much quicker and more efficient than searching through your vest for the right fly box.  You can (and probably will!) carry more flies then you will ever need. I still seem to need something else (vest, fanny pack) to carry stuff like lunch, raingear, tippet material, etc. Sometimes it does seem like overkill and I am trying to cut down what I carry with me, but it is hard for me to do as I feel that whatever I leave behind I will need that day! Larry

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I was wondering about Flies On Water? Can anyone tell me how to reach them and get a catalog. I’ve seen the Downstream Chest Box site, but the plastic boxes just don’t appeal to me. I do like the idea, though, of having preloaded boxes and just switching them using a removeable hinge pin. Thanks.

        You can get info on the Richardson Boxes from Flyfisher’s Paradise in State College PA.  Contact them at (814) 234-4189 John W. Kramer                           Clearwater Outfitters                   WE ENDORSE CATCH AND RELEASE (717) 938-3423

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Question:

 10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?

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 10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?

9. Your fly is stuck on the fern 20 feet behind you.      - Ken — Ken Janik Oregon State University Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering

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9. Your line is dry. — Dennis C. Aron Independent Representative #13921 Champion Fishing Co., Ltd e-mail for income opportunity – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?

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10.  Your hook is on backwards.

Two words.. "Fez Hat" email hacked to foil spammers

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 10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish? 9. Your fly is stuck on the fern 20 feet behind you.     – Ken

8. You have been fishing for ten minutes without realizing you lost your fly. David

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish? 9. Your fly is stuck on the fern 20 feet behind you.     – Ken 8. You have been fishing for ten minutes without realizing you lost your fly. David

7) Your rod is so light you cast 16 times before you realized you left the rod on the river bank.

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 10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?

1. You are fishing with me after telling me stories for years about how you never get skunked.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 9. Your line is dry. — Dennis C. Aron Independent Representative #13921 Champion Fishing Co., Ltd e-mail for income opportunity  10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish? youre sitting at home surfing the net

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10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?

I have been casting the last hour without a fly? Why don’t we stop false casting? Someone drained your swimming pool? Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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  9.  You’re too busy deleting all of the cheesy filler this list generates, to ever make it out the door : Anglerboy : Any ideas to finish? — gp

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    9.  You’re too busy deleting all of the cheesy filler this list   generates, to ever make it out the door 8.  Some carnsarned kid caught ‘em all. 7.  With a cane pole she cut, using worms. Anglerboy

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….your fly fishing, should of used live bait!! marco

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8. You have been fishing for ten minutes without realizing you lost your fly. David

        Actually, you didn’t lose your fly– you just lost the bend and point of the hook.  The fly still looks beautiful! — Tight Threads,         Charley Renn         Corvallis, OR

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10.  Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?

9. You just pissed in the stream and the fish know! 8. Your dog just pissed in the stream. 7. You’re wading in the same same smelly sneakers as two seasons ago. 6. You snapped the nymph off your tippet six  casts ago. 5. You’re tying up your flies with the same fingers you use to take a pinch of chewing tobacco 4. Your dry fly is not getting "down to where the fish are." 3. Your nymph is not skating across the film like it ought to. 2. Got drunk and missed the hatch. And the number one reason you’re not catching fish. . . The wife wants you to finish putting up the shelves in the pantry.

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You’ve been breathing too much head cement.

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10.  Your hook is on backwards. Two words.. "Fez Hat" email hacked to foil spammers

You’re spending all your fishing time on ROFF

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Question:

Hikers need to understand something. Hiking boots are not made to walk in concrete. The soles are usually to soft. The concrete eats them up. If you plan to do some street hiking, go with a Timberland boot or somehing like that. If you really want a ‘hiking boot’, go with the Sundowners, Newbriers, or Skywalks. That way, WHEN you wear down the soles, you can get them resoled. Hal Why is misuse of a product the responsibility of the manufacturer? : My Vasque Hiker II’s lasted for 11 years and my Montagna’s for ten.  I : thought I’d never wear any other brand.  But the new styles seem to be : narrower and I’ve now switched to Raichle for fit.  I’d use caution : with the lightweight (leather/fabric) styles.  I bought a pair of : Vasque Clarion hiking shoes and destroyed them in six months on the : streets.

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Anyone have Vasque boots.  How are they made are they durable?  Thanks.

Vasque (at least a couple of years ago) had a policy that if the leather uppers start to come appart before the sole is completely worn, they would repair or replace the boots at no charge. I bought a pair of discontinued all leather Vasque boots at a rock bottom sale price of $75 several years ago.  When the sole began to seperate from one boot a few years later, I took them back to the store to get them repaired. (at the time I was unaware of the policy, loved the boots, and was willing pay to have the boots repaired).  The store sent the boots back to Vasque and a few weeks later the store called and said that Vasque was willing to give me a $130 credit (the original retail price of the boots) towards another pair.  I took them up on the offer and picked up a pair of $190 New Briers. My current roommate had the same experience with the same type of Vasque boots (I think they were "Libertys") and he used his credit to purchase Sundowners.

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I waterproofed the leather on my Sundowners (which have been fantastic) just in case, but remember that even if the boot is waterproof, you can still get wet feet from water/snow coming in the top of the boot.  Don’t forget gaiters if you’re hiking in snow or in cold rain!  :)

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Newbriers, or Skywalks. That way, WHEN you wear down the soles, you can get them resoled.

My mileage varried!  On my 4 pairs of Skywalks, Sundowners and Newbriers the soles all came off before I had a chance to wear them down!  Luckily they stood behind their product and replaced them.  I have since grown tired of that game and got a pair of Raichles with a real stitched sole. Good Luck,                 Whitney

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Re: Vasque boots Over rocks, through streams, over snow, over dirt, over anything, my Vasque Sundowners have been _fantastic_.  I go up to people trying them on in stores and tell these total strangers that my boots have saved my life on winter hikes (since I have never gotten wet feet while wearing these boots, even on eight hour hikes through wet snow,etc.)  I have never gotten a blister, never slipped off a wet rock, never had any reason except to recommend these boots!!!  I say thumbs up!  Buy ‘em!

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Anyone have Vasque boots.  How are they made are they durable?  Thanks.

I have had my Vasque Sundowners for three years now.  Great boots.  Sturdy one piece upper construction.  Solid yet flexible sole. They break in IMHO quickly.  They are my winter boots (NYC), hiking, and allaround  walking shoes from Oct-April.  I have gone flyfishing with them-a few hours in waist deep H2O- came homw cleaned them and waxed them a week later– they came back with great flexibility.  I just spent a week out west, Zion, Bryce, GC. One hike was in Bryce-900 feet down and up during a 3 hour hike, on some quite steep trails.  Never had a blister, actually since I bought them.  I can’t say enough about them. I will definitely buy a new pair, if they are still made when I need to do such- in about six years, after having been resoled a few times. That reminds me, I have to clean them again and get the red Utah dirt off of them. Hope this sways your decision. Brian CHarles — Brian Charles

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        I just bought a new pair of sundownsers also.  I got them for pretty cheap ($160 on sale).  They fit the best out of all the boots I tried.  I would recommend them also, just make sure to try on several brands and pick the ones that fit the best. (Look at http://io.datasys.swri.edu/PATC/startout.html for boot fitting info.)         Does anyone use snoseal on their sundowners?  Or do you trust the gortex? Josh — —  Senior M.E. Student & Computer Aided Engineering          – —      Laboratory Partner                                      – —  Engineering School – The hardest four years or the        – —                       easiest six years of your life.      –

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        Does anyone use snoseal on their sundowners?  Or do you trust the gortex?

I didn’t have time to seal them before I left on their first trip (I know, I know, I just didn’t *make* the time…), but they were quite waterproof nonetheless.  The leather did suffer quite a bit, however, from scuffing — I was in canyon country, very rocky.  Sealing them later has helped the scuffing, I think.  And I’m sure it has increased the waterproof-ness of the boots — but as I said, I never had any problems in the first place. Still, I think it would be irresponsible not to seal them.

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Their cheaper models are for light hiking. Their midrange models are for heavy hiking/light backpacking. And their high end are for heavy backpacking. If you used the ‘cheap model’ for heavy use, I’m not at all surprised. If you told your sales person that you needed them for heavy use, he should have recommended a better pair. I work at an outdoor shop that sells Vasque and I know that any knowledgable salesperson should know the uses for the different levels of boots. Hal

: I hate to disagree with all the others, but I’ve had two pairs of Vasque : boots and neither lasted worth beans.  One was a cheap model and it wore : out VERY quickly (two months hard use).  I ascribed this to the cost of : the model — since I’d also heard Vasques were good — and bought an

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         I just bought a new pair of sundownsers also.  I got them for pretty cheap ($160 on sale).  They fit the best out of all the boots I tried.  I would recommend them also, just make sure to try on several brands and pick the ones that fit the best. (Look at http://io.datasys.swri.edu/PATC/startout.html for boot fitting info.)         Does anyone use snoseal on their sundowners?  Or do you trust the gortex? Josh — —  Senior M.E. Student & Computer Aided Engineering          – —      Laboratory Partner                                      – —  Engineering School – The hardest four years or the        – —                       easiest six years of your life.      –

I use Nikwax cleaner/conditioner and then apply a layer of Nikwax aqueous wax. The bottle says apply 2 or 3 layers for best results but one protects the leather well and provides for an easy clean up and retreat. The only time my feet have gotten wet in my Sundowners (4 years, great shape) is when the water is deeper than the boots are tall. Great boots! — Thanx for your interest. Tom "The thinner the air gets, the clearer my head gets."

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I like the Vasque boots I’ve owned better than any others.  My only negative observation:  in Scotland in December, walking on cold and very slippery beach stones in the western islands, I tended to slip more often than my friends, who wore boots with harder soles.  My Vasques now are the lightweight type with canvas plus leather uppers and fairly spongy soles, and the soles are now fairly smooth (I’ll need a new pair soon).  I found that in Scotland the cold made the soles a bit stiff and because they were smooth they were also slick. That’s not a complaint with Vasque boots, though!         Una Smith —         Una Smith               Department of Biology – OML                                 Yale University

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Anyone have Vasque boots.  How are they made are they durable?  Thanks.

I like them quite a bit.  They tend to run wide, which fits my feet.  My younger son has similar feet and he’s gone through a couple of pairs of Vasques over the years.  Mine have worn quite well.

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My Sundowners have never let me down.

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I wear my Vasque in the same Utah scree fields and don’t have much of a problem.  (All leather) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone have Vasque boots. Yes, lots of people do–otherwise they wouldn’t be in business How are they made I don’t know how they are made. Presumably there’s some sort of factory like set up… are they durable?   Yes, if you never hike in rocks while wearing them.  I was going to get a pair of their $180ish (I can’t remember the name) boots but everyone I talked to who also hikes reccomended against them.  In the scree fields of the Utah mountains (where I walk most of the time), Vasque got a definite thumbs down. your milage may vary, mike.

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My Vasque Hiker II’s lasted for 11 years and my Montagna’s for ten.  I thought I’d never wear any other brand.  But the new styles seem to be narrower and I’ve now switched to Raichle for fit.  I’d use caution with the lightweight (leather/fabric) styles.  I bought a pair of Vasque Clarion hiking shoes and destroyed them in six months on the streets.

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I hate to disagree with all the others, but I’ve had two pairs of Vasque boots and neither lasted worth beans.  One was a cheap model and it wore out VERY quickly (two months hard use).  I ascribed this to the cost of the model — since I’d also heard Vasques were good — and bought an expensive pair (all leather) at a local shop.  These lasted a bit longer, but I’ve certainly had MUCH better durability with other brands. The Vasques were, I must admit, totally hip and extremely comfortable though. — "Die young late in life!!!"                           http://www.unm.edu/~pflo

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        You say your boots `wore out’. What wore out, the leather         portion or the sole? If it was the leather I’m surprised; mine         have lasted many years and I wear them every day. If it was the         sole that wore down, why don’t you have them resoled? I know         the last time I had mine done (by Morin Boots, Evergreen CO.         fyi) I was able to choose between a Vasque sole or soles from         other big name manufactures. I decided to stay with Vasque         because the softer material seems to grip very well.                 Scott   Marquette Electronics    8200 West Tower Avenue    Milwaukee, WI 53223             As anyone here will tell you: I speak for myself.        

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Anyone have Vasque boots.  How are they made are they durable?  Thanks.

I love my Vasques – have used them for 4 years now – first in Nepal and now at home in Vermont.  Mine are the Gore-tex sided.  They were recommended by the outfitting shop over all the others they stocked and I have never been disappointed.  I have a friend who has the more expensive all-leather Vasques and he is equally satisfied.  One thing – I have always worn my boots with Thorlo Trekking-weight socks.  This may be key.

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I believe Vasque all-leather Gore-tex boots are issue for National Park Rangers.  I don’t wear them because they don’t fit me comfortably.   That’s the most important aspect of any boot.  I wear a comparable Asolo which is very comfortable for me.  When you buy boots, make very sure they fit properly.  Fit varies according to manufacturer.

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: Anyone have Vasque boots.  How are they made are they durable?  Thanks.         I bought my first pair of Vasque boots in 1990.  Since then I have put them through quite a bit of wear and tear and they still remain in good shape.  Since I bought those boots so many years ago, my feet have grown AND Vasque has redesigned their boots, so I thought it was time to get a new pair.  About a year ago I bought a pair of Vasque Clarion Impacts for $105. I love them!  My little brother still wears my first pair of Vasque Clarions.         In all, I hear that Vasque makes good boots, and I totally agree!  I have also heard good things about the Vasque Sundowners and the Gore-tex Clarion Impact. -David B. Buckingham dbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbd bdbdb  UofL, Speed Scientific School                                         TIP#1836                             David Bryan Buckingham                              (502)397-5496 (pager)  Triangle Fraternity                                         HSC Lab Consultant dbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbdbd bdbdb

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Anyone have Vasque boots.  How are they made are they durable?  Thanks.

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Anyone have Vasque boots.

Yes, lots of people do–otherwise they wouldn’t be in business How are they made

I don’t know how they are made. Presumably there’s some sort of factory like set up… are they durable?  

Yes, if you never hike in rocks while wearing them.  I was going to get a pair of their $180ish (I can’t remember the name) boots but everyone I talked to who also hikes reccomended against them.  In the scree fields of the Utah mountains (where I walk most of the time), Vasque got a definite thumbs down. your milage may vary, mike.

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The guys at Marriott’s Shop in Fullerton have had some advice on So.Cal. saltwater chances in the past.  Their telephone is 714-525-1827.  Address is 2700 West Orangethorpe.Last time I was in there they had a stack of orange and grey flies designed to immitate some sort of surf crab.  They will also, of course, recommend King Harbor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am interested in saltwater fly fishing in the Los Angeles and Santa Barbara area in early March.  Are there stripers in the aqeduct and how does one get access?  Is there any beach fishing and wading?  What fish and what flies.  Thanks King Harbor at Redondo Beach can be good at that time.  Rent a skiff from Rocky Point marine and throw deceivers or other anchovy-like flies on fast sinking shooting heads for bonito and calico bass.  Let me know if you need more info. John Woodling Sacramento, CA

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While we are at salt water fly fishing, what is a salt water fly like? I have some idea of fresh water fly fishing, but knows absolutely nothing about salt water fly fishing.  Obviously, at least seems to me, something like the little fresh water flies will not attract too many fish, at least nothing big.  If you do use something bigger or heavier, then you can’t really call it a fly any more, can you?  Do you still use a fly reel?  I am not a fly fisherman, but I am interested in any kind of fishing, just haven’t gotten to fly fishing yet. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -King Harbor at Redondo Beach can be good at that time.  Rent a skiff from Rocky Point marine and throw deceivers or other anchovy-like flies on fast sinking shooting heads for bonito and calico bass.  Let me know if you need more info. John Woodling Sacramento, CA

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I am interested in saltwater fly fishing in the Los Angeles and Santa Barbara area in early March.  Are there stripers in the aqeduct and how does one get access?  Is there any beach fishing and wading?  What fish and what flies.  Thanks

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I am interested in saltwater fly fishing in the Los Angeles and Santa Barbara area in early March.  Are there stripers in the aqeduct and how does one get access?  Is there any beach fishing and wading?  What fish and what flies.  Thanks

King Harbor at Redondo Beach can be good at that time.  Rent a skiff from Rocky Point marine and throw deceivers or other anchovy-like flies on fast sinking shooting heads for bonito and calico bass.  Let me know if you need more info. John Woodling Sacramento, CA

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Question:

Does anyone know about beaver creek in CA this year or at all? I was there last year late in the summer and the water was realy low. The were a lot of feed bugs in the water, but the water was too low to produce any sizable trout. Any info on the creek would be great. TimFLYFISH Dream of flyfishing, but also let the fish dream. C & R

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Tim, where do you fish Beaver Ck.? in the park or up outa Sourgrass? I would expect the water to be high right now. The Stanislaus at Sourgrass was pretty high and fast a couple weeks ago. As I remember the fish aren’t really big there. This time of the year, due to high, fast water fish close to the river bank. There are some nice holes outa Sourgrass and up the creek where the road crosses Beaver Ck. wish you luck, Bob

: Does anyone know about beaver creek in CA this year or at all? I was there : last year late in the summer and the water was realy low. The were a lot : of feed bugs in the water, but the water was too low to produce any : sizable trout. Any info on the creek would be great. : TimFLYFISH : Dream of flyfishing, but also let the fish dream. C & R —  Remember amateur astronomers: "keep looking for the next Universe"

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