Question:

Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before and the groaning coming from the other room, spoke to his state of incapacitation. I thought the ROFFian method says to hand him a bottle of Wild Turkey, scream ‘Drink or Die, mother f*er’, haul his butt into the fishing car and careen wildly to the river.

What can I say, I forgot.  Does this mean I have to send back my decoder ring? Peter the worried

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Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before … I thought the ROFFian method says to hand him a bottle of Wild Turkey, scream ‘Drink or Die, mother f*er’, haul his butt into the fishing car and careen wildly to the river.

But you’re forgetting that Scott, taking after his mother’s side of the family, is WAY too smart to be a ROFFian. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before … I thought the ROFFian method says to hand him a bottle of Wild Turkey, scream ‘Drink or Die, mother f*er’, haul his butt into the fishing car and careen wildly to the river. But you’re forgetting that Scott, taking after his mother’s side of the family, is WAY too smart to be a ROFFian.

That and the fact his dad likes to keep him away from influences that will lead him into a life of debauchery.  He can find his own way.  :) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before and the groaning coming from the other room, spoke to his state of incapacitation.

I thought the ROFFian method says to hand him a bottle of Wild Turkey, scream ‘Drink or Die, mother f*er’, haul his butt into the fishing car and careen wildly to the river.

Response:

Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before and the groaning coming from the other room, spoke to his state of incapacitation. I thought the ROFFian method says to hand him a bottle of Wild Turkey, scream ‘Drink or Die, mother f*er’, haul his butt into the fishing car and careen wildly to the river.

    ah, stan, ol’ boy, you will soon learn more than you ever wanted to know concerning the rather brusque nature of interaction techniques displayed by the subject of that little anecdote.     let’s just say that no one has ever called him "gentleman jim" roberts. your friend in the old north state wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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or how to screw up your first day on the Grand and still catch some fish. Scott was supposed to come with me but he had been out partying the night before and the groaning coming from the other room, spoke to his state of incapacitation.  I had put my stuff together the night before, just before I hit the sack.  This was going to be the first Grand trip after a season of steelheading so everything had to be dragged out of drawers, closets and rearranged. Six weights seemed to be a good idea to chuck some large perch streamers at the top end of the Grand.  It had been blown out by earlier rains so I was counting on high and dirty.  In these conditions, perch get washed through the dam and the browns have a field day with them. As I drive by Cedar Run, I can see that the water is a bit high but also that it is gin clear.  Scratch plan number one. I stop at the second access point – my car is the only one (miracle) – but as I’m suiting up, two more cars arrive.  The water at the access point usually holds a few fish but if these guys tromp through it first, that’ll blow my chance at them so I hurry up.  The little 6 wt. is taken since the perch streamer idea is done like dinner. I’m using a Type 6 fullsink on it – casts OK but the little rod is working – and I start swinging a little pattern – nothing.  This is a new pattern that I hope will successfully imitate small baitfish but I don’t move a single fish.  I work downstream while the car load work upstream.  The area around Cedar Run tends not to have a lot of defined seams and runs that would appeal to the nympher – mostly composed of flats connected by riffles.  However, the gang has parked themselves in a nice nymphing spot and after about 15 minutes, a dead brown of about 12" floats by.  Later, one guy walks by and I say the I noticed he had hooked one.  He’s quite pleased to describe it but I refrain from telling him the result. Should mention that in the process of hurrying I had left behind my tippet, thermometer, camera, and a couple of fly boxes. Should also mention that it was freaking cold and I was dressed for the summer-like temperatures promised for mid day. Should also mention that I didn’t get a single hit. To hell with Cedar Run and I pack up for The Trestle.  This spot has an old rail trestle bridge that is now used by walkers – it has a beautiful view of the Grand.  Directly below the bridge, there’s some slow water that has the appearance of a warm water river, but further down, the river is split by an island and as the river rejoins, there’s a beautiful nymphing run which is now my intended target but it’s probably chock-a-block with anglers. I unwrap the 20 something year old graphite Orvis Osprey – a slow 9′ 6" six weight that I bought over eBay.  The cork is still white – the rod having seen virtually no use.  It was an impulse buy and I regretted it afterward but hell, since I have it, might as well use it.  What a little gem.  About as perfect a nymphing rod as one could want. At least when I don’t catch any fish I’ll enjoin the experience. When I get to the run, there’s no one in it despite seeing fishermen above and below me.  Are they all nuts?  On goes a #18 bead head prince nymph that I had bought at the Feathered Hook last year. Within a few minutes of my travels to the dark side, I’ve hooked and landed a sleek, fat, 15-16" brown.  She put on quite a show, charging all over the place, making the JLH sing a few times and causing the gang upstream to cast covetous glances.  Swing her into the shallows, she’s lightly hooked, lift the head and slip out the nymph and she’s on her way.  A few casts later and I’ve hooked her twin sister and landed her in the same spot.  Grand browns at this time of year are at their most feisty so even a fish of this size takes a couple of minutes to land.  A few minutes later I set the hook into a larger fish but I was overly aggressive with the hookset and when it turned I had too much pressure applied.  Snap. I don’t normally hog a run but with anglers bracketing me, I don’t have much choice.  However, these hookups will be my last.  Back to the parking lot for some of Jo’s famous sandwiches and a reassessment. Can’t believe my nymphing luck.  The first set had been totally instinctive and I had been really surprised to find a fish on.  Watch out Louie, I’m starting to get the hang of this! A quick detour to a favourite spot at Inverhaugh but it yields only the briefest of hookups and a chat with a few anglers as it also gets busy while I fish.  A guide leads two rookie clients to the water and makes a big fuss out of walking across the water well downstream of me so as not to disturb my fishing water.  Thanks.  Too bad the next gang hadn’t been around to hear the instruction.  Again three, two rookies lead by a not so rookie.  He leads them into the water to cross within five feet of me and to tromp through the water I’m fishing.  As they approach, I expect to see them angle off but they keep coming. Finally, I advise them that I’m fishing this water, would they mind crossing further down.  The look of surprise on the leader’s face told me that he hadn’t even thought of the possibility that I might be actually fishing the water! Oh well, I still caught some – on a nymph to boot. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 If only acid had done as much for me, I’d have done more than sample it a couple of times. Now I feel like a real dork. The only acid I’ve ever taken much interest in is the stuff that has me gobbling Tagamet whenever my wife sends out for pizza. Mike S. Medintz Burn, esophagus, burn!

You didn’t miss anything.  I’ve had as much fun looking at the inside of my eyelids without having taken anything more interesting than homogenized cow’s milk. — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If only acid had done as much for me, I’d have done more than sample it a couple of times. Now I feel like a real dork. The only acid I’ve ever taken much interest in is the stuff that has me gobbling Tagamet whenever my wife sends out for pizza. Mike S. Medintz Burn, esophagus, burn! You didn’t miss anything.  I’ve had as much fun looking at the inside of my eyelids without having taken anything more interesting than homogenized cow’s milk.

You weren’t doing it right. /daytripper (Trust me on this

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—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1

<snip re: acid You weren’t doing it right. /daytripper (Trust me on this

Trip, I like you and all, but if we’re ever at a clave and you tell me to trust you on something, I’m afraid I’m going to have to insist on driving. That acid indigestion’s a bitch when you’re trying to watch the road. Makes you see purple lizards and shit like that. – — Linux: Because I like it when my computer actually works —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8O9iXkciOs8eNXDMRAuqzAKCSNnDitg3ny386MWd8B4FyNXUCWgCfaWoU 9lUI5m8FwvxTSX9bv14WZSI= =SmTC —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ——BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 <snip re: acid You weren’t doing it right. /daytripper (Trust me on this Trip, I like you and all, but if we’re ever at a clave and you tell me to trust you on something, I’m afraid I’m going to have to insist on driving. That acid indigestion’s a bitch when you’re trying to watch the road. Makes you see purple lizards and shit like that.

Sounds fair, but the real tip will be when I say "Watch this!" /daytripper (Living On The Edge)

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Sounds fair, but the real tip will be when I say "Watch this!" /daytripper (Living On The Edge)

My experience goes more like, "Hey, check this out"

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Ed Muskie on acid. -Fear and loathing on the fly-fishing trail

If only acid had done as much for me, I’d have done more than sample it a couple of times. — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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Ed Muskie on acid. -Fear and loathing on the fly-fishing trail If only acid had done as much for me, I’d have done more than sample it a couple of times.

Well, speaking just for me (and, well, for Raoul, Ed, and a host of other characters of an imaginary nature, by default), I’ve always found that an interesting assortment of friends and acquaintances lead to more interesting "trips" than the recreational use of pharmaceutical chemicals.  I’ve never put any real stock in drugs, nor had any real interest in them.  That said, I don’t begrudge other adults their usage (either morally or legally), and in fact, having friends that do so in the aforementioned assortment can be both inspirational and instructional.  Besides, me on acid, etc. would likely result is nothing but a very long one-word sentence of vowels – sort of a Polish Julie Andrews song…. TC, R whose holiday messages ran the gamut from folks such as VERY gay West End (English) theater types (yes, I do see the redundancy) to those who make ol’ Rush look like the former…

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Is this "Muskie"?  (for filter purposes)

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Is this "Muskie"?  (for filter purposes)

Reliable sources tell me it’s not THAT Muskie, the tree-hugging Bush hater, but a parody of another famous Muskie (the self-hugging Nixon hater).  However those same reliable sources also tell me that he probably won’t be posting much to ROFF (and certainly no articles on how Bush, et al, are responsible for everything from the Crusades to the making of "Freddy Got Fingered"…) HTH, TC, R

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I’m not sure that many roffians read that book, judging from the total lack of response to the Ed Muskie on acid comment. It just reminded how funny that book was. I need to go down to the basement, dig it out and give it another read. HST

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is this "Muskie"?  (for filter purposes) Reliable sources tell me it’s not THAT Muskie, the tree-hugging Bush hater, but a parody of another famous Muskie (the self-hugging Nixon hater).  However those same reliable sources also tell me that he probably won’t be posting much to ROFF (and certainly no articles on how Bush, et al, are responsible for everything from the Crusades to the making of "Freddy Got Fingered"…) HTH, TC, R

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Is this "Muskie"?  (for filter purposes)

If it is, he’s, happily, returned to his old ways.  More or less his amusing trolling style.  I’d advise not filtering unless it goes political.  Unless you don’t like an occasional chuckle or gag (it can trigger that reflex once in a while).  If it’s someone else, well, good for them. — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is this "Muskie"?  (for filter purposes) If it is, he’s, happily, returned to his old ways.  More or less his amusing trolling style.  I’d advise not filtering unless it goes political.  Unless you don’t like an occasional chuckle or gag (it can trigger that reflex once in a while).  If it’s someone else, well, good for them.

Well, I think it’s actually the ghost of ol’ Tricky Dick his ownself, haunting Donald Segretti’s Palm Pilot….or Ben Bradlee’s WebTV… A. Gordon Haig

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—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 If only acid had done as much for me, I’d have done more than sample it a couple of times.

Now I feel like a real dork. The only acid I’ve ever taken much interest in is the stuff that has me gobbling Tagamet whenever my wife sends out for pizza. Mike S. Medintz Burn, esophagus, burn! —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8N/g8kciOs8eNXDMRAoNpAJ488dF6OiCruhmZUGh5RW5ysMJqDwCfYPCJ OZ6lIjqGKF/MNTBRpfcTJTc= =s0FK —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

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….At the most inopportune moment, there appeared a slack-jawed rentacop, and threatened to spray Brian with pepper spray unless he put down the hapless clerk.  Before I could explain the perilous nature of such an ill-advised action, we – the clerk, Tricky, the rentacop, and your author – were awash in noxious fumes.  Any hope to a civil resolution is, at this point, non-existent, and also of course, Brian, who is used to such pedestrian attempts, is completely unfazed.  Well, perhaps "unfazed" is not completely accurate, because it seems to have a wholly-unintended effect.  He proceeded to hurl the now-wailing technoweasel at the wide-eyed rentacop.  Surprisingly, for a person in such a position and of such girth, the rentacop was apparently not used to catching screaming people.   At this point, Tricky started yelling something about "that prick Lyndon" and "agent orange," which, it goes without saying, provided no measure of stability to a situation turning more dangerous by the minute.  I decided that quick, decisive action was not only called for, but urgently needed.  Normally, a round or two into a handy ceiling from the Magnum would have shocked everyone not in our party into stunned inaction, and we could have made a hasty retreat. However, the current political climate makes the use of firearms, even when used strictly for effect, a rather dicey proposition, so I demurred from that course.  I decided instead to play it straight.  I began to demand to see management, and for a phone to call Johnny Cochran. A slightish young man, who appeared scared shitless, presented himself.  He introduced himself as "Skip Skipperson, the assistant to the manager’s assistant," and I quickly determined that my chosen course was the right one.  "What do you mean by hiring fiends with nerve gas to assault customers," I bellowed, about 6 inches from Skip’s face, which was now that very pale shade of grey-green that told me Skip had likely soiled himself.  "Urga-nish-dint-naw-load," gurgled Skip.  This was our moment.  I told Brian to grab Tricky, and we beat it out of there, post-haste.   Experience has taught me that departure at such a moment will result, by the time the principles are debriefed, and everyone gives their version, exactly as it happened, with the composites assembled into a profile, in a distinct advantage being gained.  The constabulary will be busy looking for 2 Black Panthers, a drag queen, Martha Stewart, and a large, ill-described bovine called "Samuel." While our departure was successful and without further incident, I was still no closer to the original goal: that of replacing the world-worn Nikon.  We proceeded to another store, ignoring Brian’s protests and Tricky’s mumbling about "little yeller bastards"….

Response:

Ed Muskie on acid. -Fear and loathing on the fly-fishing trail

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ….At the most inopportune moment, there appeared a slack-jawed rentacop, and threatened to spray Brian with pepper spray unless he put down the hapless clerk.  Before I could explain the perilous nature of such an ill-advised action, we – the clerk, Tricky, the rentacop, and your author – were awash in noxious fumes.  Any hope to a civil resolution is, at this point, non-existent, and also of course, Brian, who is used to such pedestrian attempts, is completely unfazed.  Well, perhaps "unfazed" is not completely accurate, because it seems to have a wholly-unintended effect.  He proceeded to hurl the now-wailing technoweasel at the wide-eyed rentacop.  Surprisingly, for a person in such a position and of such girth, the rentacop was apparently not used to catching screaming people. At this point, Tricky started yelling something about "that prick Lyndon" and "agent orange," which, it goes without saying, provided no measure of stability to a situation turning more dangerous by the minute.  I decided that quick, decisive action was not only called for, but urgently needed.  Normally, a round or two into a handy ceiling from the Magnum would have shocked everyone not in our party into stunned inaction, and we could have made a hasty retreat. However, the current political climate makes the use of firearms, even when used strictly for effect, a rather dicey proposition, so I demurred from that course.  I decided instead to play it straight.  I began to demand to see management, and for a phone to call Johnny Cochran. A slightish young man, who appeared scared shitless, presented himself.  He introduced himself as "Skip Skipperson, the assistant to the manager’s assistant," and I quickly determined that my chosen course was the right one.  "What do you mean by hiring fiends with nerve gas to assault customers," I bellowed, about 6 inches from Skip’s face, which was now that very pale shade of grey-green that told me Skip had likely soiled himself.  "Urga-nish-dint-naw-load," gurgled Skip.  This was our moment.  I told Brian to grab Tricky, and we beat it out of there, post-haste. Experience has taught me that departure at such a moment will result, by the time the principles are debriefed, and everyone gives their version, exactly as it happened, with the composites assembled into a profile, in a distinct advantage being gained.  The constabulary will be busy looking for 2 Black Panthers, a drag queen, Martha Stewart, and a large, ill-described bovine called "Samuel." While our departure was successful and without further incident, I was still no closer to the original goal: that of replacing the world-worn Nikon.  We proceeded to another store, ignoring Brian’s protests and Tricky’s mumbling about "little yeller bastards"….

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Question:

  And now, back to your regularly scheduled programmming….. bite me Warren!

Go smoke a whitefish! — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

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fishing depends (at least in part) on thinking like a fish.  I’ve tried it. Makes my brain hurt.

My guess is that if we are thinking like a fish we would eat sticks and rocks. I keep finding them in the fish that I keep. Big Dale

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Excellent synopsis Peter.  These types of discussions were what first attracted me to and later hooked me on ROFF.  My thanks to you, Willi, et all for the thought provoking insights/explanations.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled programmming….. bite me Warren!

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I am a fairly new fly fisher and an even newer tier. I have been fortunate enough to have a few experienced hands tell me that I am far more picky about my flies than the fish. Also, worry about developing the tying skills and your flies will look more like the store flies as you get better. In the mean time, it’s pretty darn cool to catch a fish on something that you made by hand. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even during hatches, not all the fish will be keyed into the same features on a fly. With some, wings may be important, others how high or low the fly floats, others size, others sparseness, other "action", others color, other orientation etc. etc.  Just like people, I think there are fish that look for certain "right" characteristics in a fly and are triggered by it, those that look for something wrong and if found will reject it, and those that just want something to eat. Individual fish have individual feeding habits and preferences. There is no magic fly. Being successful means finding a fly that appeals to the majority of fish and turns off few. Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish. Willi

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<snipped a whole bunch for the Grand Poohbah   Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending?

Willi, I can’t remember if you were there when this happened during the clave or not.  We were fishing and saw a fish swallow a bunch of moss and then spit it out.  Perhaps there was a morsel of food in that bunch of moss and the fish separated it and then spit the moss back out.  It could be that the fish sees the hook as debris to filter out from the food and takes the fly anyways.  Just a thought. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

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What a trout perceives is a problem amenable to experiment….and it’s been done.

Wolfgang, Like usual, I don’t know how to take what you say but did you mean the above? If so, I’d like to see it. Willi

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple. Not to be a wise-ass, but we do?  I mean, I think you’re right, but to pull a Wolfgang (which ain’t easy, lemme tell ya), how do we know? Granted, we can measure it as far as physical size, and do some experiments as far as electric charges, etc., but how can we (at this point, anyway) really know what a fish is "thinking" or perceiving? It ain’t SUPPOSED to be easy!  Nevertheless, here’s a little tip: never try to get away with making two (or three) points look like one.

Well, thanks, but, basically, I was calling you fat…. A trout’s brain IS small and relatively simple.  We could go into all kinds of tedious detail about comparative neuroanatomy (and the literature is voluminous) but it’s late and I need to get to bed.

And so is the literature that says there is, or isn’t, a God or Gods, that Communism is the best thing since, well, others say it wasn’t, and with the advent of the Web, probably quite a bit claiming Elvis, JFK, and Marilyn Monroe are having a nightly GB at Bill Gates’ house. What a trout perceives is a problem amenable to experiment….and it’s been done.

Granted, we…well, ok, "we" implies the wrong thing, so – someone can likely get general info, like, "shine light, fish swims away" and "fish tries to eat this, but not that," but I’m dubious we can truly know what fish "think," perceive, or whatever you call it, i.e., knowing the fish "thinks" a particular thing is or isn’t, and more importantly, why.  For example, I’d run away from a group of people having a Beastie Boys marathon, but not because I’m scared of the people, music, or the Beastie Boys, but I don’t like them, either.  On the other hand, I might sit and listen with a group of gangbangers who happened to like, oh, say, Bobby Short, Bob Wills, or certain Jane’s Addiction cuts.   One reason I’m sure "we" haven’t discovered such information (past a certain superficial level, anyway) is because especially with things like fish, which leads to fishing, is that it would get exploited before the ink was dry on the reports.  I hate to sound cynical, but I think if "we" could truly and accurately figure out what makes fish "tick," or what they "think" (again, accurately is key), companies would be on it like, well, fish on scientifically-developed foolproof (the key) lures.  Moreover, even when the ability to vocally express how a creature is feeling is there, even that isn’t a completely accurate measure…look at women, for example…. We are all familiar with the adage that suggests success in fishing depends (at least in part) on thinking like a fish.  I’ve tried it. Makes my brain hurt.

Yeah, and it’s always made me laugh…why the hell would I want to think like the thing I’m trying to outsmart and catch.  For example, if a lion thought like a Tommy, would another lion get confused and eat him, or even more odd, would he get confused and die of exhaustion trying to outrun himself?  Heck, maybe he’d just have a crisis of conscience and run off and become a vegan and try to convert the pride.  Soon, he’d be smoking clove cigarettes, getting arrested with Al Sharpton, and whining about Nike factories and under-sized limos. Next thing you know, he’d be hanging out with Paul McCartney, and Lord knows what else…well, actually, I think the Lord did know, which is why lions don’t flit about trying to think like Tommies…..they just catch ‘em and eat ‘em….. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Wolfgang

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As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple. Not to be a wise-ass, but we do?  I mean, I think you’re right, but to pull a Wolfgang (which ain’t easy, lemme tell ya), how do we know? Granted, we can measure it as far as physical size, and do some experiments as far as electric charges, etc., but how can we (at this point, anyway) really know what a fish is "thinking" or perceiving?

It ain’t SUPPOSED to be easy!  Nevertheless, here’s a little tip: never try to get away with making two (or three) points look like one. A trout’s brain IS small and relatively simple.  We could go into all kinds of tedious detail about comparative neuroanatomy (and the literature is voluminous) but it’s late and I need to get to bed. What a trout perceives is a problem amenable to experiment….and it’s been done. We are all familiar with the adage that suggests success in fishing depends (at least in part) on thinking like a fish.  I’ve tried it. Makes my brain hurt. Wolfgang

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <Big Snip I’ll take dogs as an example, I know them pretty well after working with them for many years. If we try and understand how they smell things based on how we smell things, we couldn’t even begin to understand the complexity, importance and usefulness of smells in their life. Their sense of smell, how they interpret smells, and how they can use them is as alien to our sense of smell as our "intellect" is to theirs. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous. Willi I told my wife about this post and tried to get her to conduct an experiment, but she wouldn’t do it. All I wanted her to do was let me get the video camera and shoot video of her sniffing our Basset Hound’s butt and then giving me her perceptions. Among "other" things, she said I’d been on this news group way too long. <g

Post of the week, great image!! Willi

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[snip] What does a trout see when our dry passes overhead? – a protruding hook that is below the surface and produces no dimpling or halos

This is one of things that convinced me that a trout’s perception of a fly is very different from ours. In looking at the photos of underwater views of a fly, the bend of the hook and the barb is VERY prevalent. To my eye it is probably the most prevalent thing. However, a trout will overlook this but at times demand an exact match in terms of size, shape, color, etc. Willi

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First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.

   I believe this is often of major importance. When fishing with a dry fly, I often cast to spots I *know* hold fish, and I get no response because the fly is riding a little low in the water. After treating it with desiccant it will be riding on the very tips of the hackles; it just amazes me how this can trigger strikes from fish that weren’t the least bit interested in the same fly moments earlier.

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First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.    I believe this is often of major importance. When fishing with a dry fly, I often cast to spots I *know* hold fish, and I get no response because the fly is riding a little low in the water. After treating it with desiccant it will be riding on the very tips of the hackles; it just amazes me how this can trigger strikes from fish that weren’t the least bit interested in the same fly moments earlier.

(I noticed you use this technique on a fish that short struck the other day on the Big T) And sometimes the opposite is true, the fish will take a partly submerged fly after rejecting the same fly floating high and dry. This happened to me yesterday. Willi

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This is one of things that convinced me that a trout’s perception of a fly is very different from ours. In looking at the photos of underwater views of a fly, the bend of the hook and the barb is VERY prevalent. To my eye it is probably the most prevalent thing. However, a trout will overlook this but at times demand an exact match in terms of size, shape, color, etc. Willi

I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play. A partially drowned fly may work if the fish is keyed on emerging or drowned insects. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is one of things that convinced me that a trout’s perception of a fly is very different from ours. In looking at the photos of underwater views of a fly, the bend of the hook and the barb is VERY prevalent. To my eye it is probably the most prevalent thing. However, a trout will overlook this but at times demand an exact match in terms of size, shape, color, etc. Willi I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play.

That’s how the photos of dry flies from underwater appear to us. I question that they are perceived in the same manner by a trout. Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending? The point I’m trying to make is that when we use our vision to try and explain how a trout or any other animal uses their vision, I think that alot of the assumptions made are going to be erroneous. This is especially true if, like in the case of trout vision, there are demonstrative physical differences in vision components between that animal and ourselves. Also, vision is more than how the eye perceives something, it is how the brain interprets the signals that it receives from the eye.   I’ll take dogs as an example, I know them pretty well after working with them for many years. If we try and understand how they smell things based on how we smell things, we couldn’t even begin to understand the complexity, importance and usefulness of smells in their life. Their sense of smell, how they interpret smells, and how they can use them is as alien to our sense of smell as our "intellect" is to theirs. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous. Willi

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I’ll take dogs as an example, ….. ….. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous.

True, but no more erroneous than if we *didn’t* use our sense of smell to try to understand theirs.  ;) I agree with everything you say about our sense of vision necessarily being different from a trout’s, but it’s really the closest thing we have to work with and base our guesses on.  Otherwise we’re reduced to throwing up our hands and relying on "conclusions" drawn from what are really small, highly variable samples (our own personal experiences).  AND we’d have less to BS about. JR

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play. That’s how the photos of dry flies from underwater appear to us. I question that they are perceived in the same manner by a trout. Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending?

[snip] As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple.  It can only process so many visual cues.  If we make this process overly complex, I think we make it more difficult than it need be.  I believe that a trout processes the visual cues that say "food" and ignores those that suggest otherwise (e.g. the hook.)  After all, a trout’s world is full of drifting debris.  It has to have a simple, yet quick way to differentiate between a small stick and a nymph, for example. If your fly has the necessary cues, the trout takes it, despite the big, ugly hook.  This differentiation process is probably learned through repetition – the more bugs of a certain type that pass by a trout, the more likely it will fixate on them and begin to feed.  It probably has to learn what is good to eat, every time a major hatch occurs – this explains why the early part of a hatch may not engender much of response. It may well perceive colour, light refraction, etc. differently than us, but there is only a few cues we need to get right.  This is one of the reasons why I don’t like to stray too much from the original materials in an old recipe.  Skues talks about how certain materials have a special quality in the water and appear more like the natural when presented in the trout’s world.  I think if you get the hackle and tail, size, and colour right, you’ll fool trout more often than not. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play. That’s how the photos of dry flies from underwater appear to us. I question that they are perceived in the same manner by a trout. Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending? [snip] As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple.

Not to be a wise-ass, but we do?  I mean, I think you’re right, but to pull a Wolfgang (which ain’t easy, lemme tell ya), how do we know? Granted, we can measure it as far as physical size, and do some experiments as far as electric charges, etc., but how can we (at this point, anyway) really know what a fish is "thinking" or perceiving? It can only process so many visual cues.  If we make this process overly complex, I think we make it more difficult than it need be.  I believe that a trout processes the visual cues that say "food" and ignores those that suggest otherwise (e.g. the hook.)  After all, a trout’s world is full of drifting debris.  It has to have a simple, yet quick way to differentiate between a small stick and a nymph, for example. If your fly has the necessary cues, the trout takes it, despite the big, ugly hook.  

Maybe they just intend to eat what appears to be the bug and not what appears to be whatever the hook appears to be.  When one gets a club sandwich, one doesn’t think, "Hmm, this looks good, well, except for that frilly stick in it.  I wonder if I have to eat that, too?" so perhaps it simply looks like a fish’s frilly stick or parsley sprig or whatever, or maybe they see insects on or near actual sticks, and eat the bug and either not eat or spit out the stick – maybe they see a stick and a bug, and when they spit out the stick, to their surprise and your consternation, the whole thing goes.  Or maybe, just like most living creatures, including humans, close is good enough if you are hungry enough or the food looks good enough.  If simply looking odd or different prevented predation, we’d be up to our hat brims  in things like albinos, genetic appearance deformities (that had no health ramifications), etc. because they’d be no natural predators of such things (well, except man and a few other things), they’d gradually become more prevalent. This differentiation process is probably learned through repetition – the more bugs of a certain type that pass by a trout, the more likely it will fixate on them and begin to feed.  It probably has to learn what is good to eat, every time a major hatch occurs – this explains why the early part of a hatch may not engender much of response. It may well perceive colour, light refraction, etc. differently than us, but there is only a few cues we need to get right.  This is one of the reasons why I don’t like to stray too much from the original materials in an old recipe.  Skues talks about how certain materials have a special quality in the water and appear more like the natural when presented in the trout’s world.  I think if you get the hackle and tail, size, and colour right, you’ll fool trout more often than not.

If you look at writers of the beginnings of the "dry fly era of prominence" (say from about 1870 to Mary Orvis Marbury, etc., forward), you find that there are vast differences of opinion as to replication vs. stimulation vs. "tempting" vs. simple guessing vs. planned experimentation.  Many felt that "fooling" the fish by making them think the fly was a true natural was all but impossible, and the closer you tried to get, the more "unnatural" your imitator would appear.  Maybe it was a mirror of the Impressionists, but some seem to feel that "suggesters" were more effective than imitators.  FWIW, my view has always been (and admittedly, it is both acquired from others and self-discovery) that there is much more to it than accurate-to-us appearing imitators, but YMMV.  For example, how many have had beat-up, ratty, tattered old flies, lures, etc., that produced better than new, truly accurate imitators? As to the history of the subject, if anyone is interested, I have some pretty old volumes, and some do talk about this very subject, plus I’m sure there are many others with other works, so perhaps we can piece together a history of this aspect of the sport. TC, R

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<Big Snip I’ll take dogs as an example, I know them pretty well after working with them for many years. If we try and understand how they smell things based on how we smell things, we couldn’t even begin to understand the complexity, importance and usefulness of smells in their life. Their sense of smell, how they interpret smells, and how they can use them is as alien to our sense of smell as our "intellect" is to theirs. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous. Willi

I told my wife about this post and tried to get her to conduct an experiment, but she wouldn’t do it. All I wanted her to do was let me get the video camera and shoot video of her sniffing our Basset Hound’s butt and then giving me her perceptions. Among "other" things, she said I’d been on this news group way too long. <g

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Excellent synopsis Peter.  These types of discussions were what first attracted me to and later hooked me on ROFF.  My thanks to you, Willi, et all for the thought provoking insights/explanations. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] What does a trout see when our dry passes overhead? – a hackle dimpled surface film producing halos of light – a tail that also produces a dimpling along its length and the same light refraction – a protruding hook that is below the surface and produces no dimpling or halos – a body that for the most part is in shadow – the solid outline of a dun’s wings – all of this seen against a bright sky background First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.  As she gets closer, the colour and wing start to become important.  A fish can focus on a fly less than an inch from its nose – its close range vision is excellent – so the rest of the details have to start to make sense, the wing, the body colour, the size, etc. Trout seem to take flies for a number of reasons – obviously hunger and it matches what she’s been eating for the last half hour, curiosity, aggression, and playfulness.  I mentioned in a much earlier post, being fooled by three little browns that raced around chasing Gray Foxes.  It’s not wise to take an anthropomorphic interpretation of their behaviour, however, had they simply been hungry, they could have sat in one of the many feeding lanes and sipped Gray Foxes all afternoon.  It’s difficult to interpret their pack chasing behaviour as anything other than playful competition.  They also keyed on moving Gray Foxes, a still natural or imitation didn’t get a look. To sum it up, the fly should sit right, producing the right halos, plus it should cast a shadow of approximately the right size, and finally, it’s details should be right to pass the close range examination. This applies to picky fish in slower water condition; brookies in fast water tend to slash at anything that looks like food.  So in my neck of the woods, flies that will catch brookies on the cascade section of the Credit, will be a complete bust on the slow glides of the Grand. There’s too much variation o attempt generalize much further than this. (Much of the above wisdom, courtesy of various books by Lafontaine, Skues, et al.) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at

http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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<snipped interesting speculations of an experienced fishtricker  They also keyed on moving Gray Foxes, a still natural or imitation didn’t get a look.

kinda like on penns creek when we were there…  the march browns had to quiver a bit and just right to interest most of those finicky browns …anything just floating motionless on the water generally wouldn’t be touched.  i saw dozens of fish nail the bug just as it was starting to take off from the surface, and several coming full-body out of the water like a salmon to grab the bug in the air.  that was one of those memory etchings i look forward to collecting more of…

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Even during hatches, not all the fish will be keyed into the same features on a fly. With some, wings may be important, others how high or low the fly floats, others size, others sparseness, other "action", others color, other orientation etc. etc.  Just like people, I think there are fish that look for certain "right" characteristics in a fly and are triggered by it, those that look for something wrong and if found will reject it, and those that just want something to eat. Individual fish have individual feeding habits and preferences. There is no magic fly. Being successful means finding a fly that appeals to the majority of fish and turns off few. Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish. Willi

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Just like people, I think there are fish that look for certain "right" characteristics in a fly and are triggered by it…

- "Hey, Jimmie, looks like we got a hotty floating by at three o’clock!" – "Woa, dude, check out the hackles on *that* one!" – "Hey, there, midge! Why doncha drift on over to *my* riffle, baby?" –Steve (if fish could talk)

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Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish.

Not only do we merely perceive color differently than the fish (probably), we probably also overestimate color and underestimate behavior of the bug. This idea is explored in "What The Trout Said" and "Dry Fly: New Angles".

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Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish.

And although it simply states the obvious, the fish views the fly from a completely different angle, and through a different medium, so even if they did see (eye construction- and placement-wise) in the same manner as people, their frame of reference is completely different. It’s unlikely that man and fish will ever see a fly the same, regardless of the difference in the eyes. Moreover, we can not know what differences would go ignored, which would be seen as different but "OK," and which were different and off-putting.  As a simple example, most people would recognize and accept Wendy’s square hamburger as just another burger variant and eat it if they wanted a burger (yeah, yeah, eyeball jokes, taste, etc., aside), but given a choice between a burger with, say, asparagus spears, raw oysters, and orange sherbet and a plain burger, most would likely choose the plain one (even if they’d eat all the items in other combinations).   But as Willi points out, fish seem to be like people in that they do have individual habits, and occasionally, just like kids drinking pickle juice over ice, a fish might try and eat something different.   Fish "dine" on what comes past or is within sight, they don’t seem to "plan" dinner – "Ooh, honey, doesn’t the Four Seasons sound good, and then, we can go by the Carlyle for drinks and a little Bobby…" or decide that the tacos at El Asadero sound better than the seafood at Costa Azul and head that way.  But they can sometimes be tempted by teasing them with something that looks "food-ish" enough AND different enough to tempt them into taking a chance, just like you do when the waiter suggests the entire tenderloin, rare, with Hollandaise and a large side of creamed spinach, or the dessert cart comes by with the Double Chocolate Drunken Fudge Cream Cake with Buttery-Sweet Ice Cream on top.  You know you shouldn’t, the better half is gonna bitch, but like a moth to a flame….or rather, a hog to a trough…. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Willi

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[snip] What does a trout see when our dry passes overhead? – a hackle dimpled surface film producing halos of light – a tail that also produces a dimpling along its length and the same light refraction – a protruding hook that is below the surface and produces no dimpling or halos – a body that for the most part is in shadow – the solid outline of a dun’s wings – all of this seen against a bright sky background First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.  As she gets closer, the colour and wing start to become important.  A fish can focus on a fly less than an inch from its nose – its close range vision is excellent – so the rest of the details have to start to make sense, the wing, the body colour, the size, etc. Trout seem to take flies for a number of reasons – obviously hunger and it matches what she’s been eating for the last half hour, curiosity, aggression, and playfulness.  I mentioned in a much earlier post, being fooled by three little browns that raced around chasing Gray Foxes.  It’s not wise to take an anthropomorphic interpretation of their behaviour, however, had they simply been hungry, they could have sat in one of the many feeding lanes and sipped Gray Foxes all afternoon.  It’s difficult to interpret their pack chasing behaviour as anything other than playful competition.  They also keyed on moving Gray Foxes, a still natural or imitation didn’t get a look.   To sum it up, the fly should sit right, producing the right halos, plus it should cast a shadow of approximately the right size, and finally, it’s details should be right to pass the close range examination. This applies to picky fish in slower water condition; brookies in fast water tend to slash at anything that looks like food.  So in my neck of the woods, flies that will catch brookies on the cascade section of the Credit, will be a complete bust on the slow glides of the Grand. There’s too much variation o attempt generalize much further than this. (Much of the above wisdom, courtesy of various books by Lafontaine, Skues, et al.) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

under different conditions and different geographical locations, with us reporting back every week/month. (George, you have 2 volunteers right now). Waddaya think? Big Al…….

I will volunteer to cover the North Texas area. I can count on about a dozen members of The Roadkill Roundtable to help with the project. Big Dale

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I would be more than will to test rod breaking strength, warranty compliance and retrieval from forgotten locations, aspects often overlooked about – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – under different conditions and different geographical locations, with us reporting back every week/month. (George, you have 2 volunteers right now). Waddaya think? Big Al……. I will volunteer to cover the North Texas area. I can count on about a dozen members of The Roadkill Roundtable to help with the project. Big Dale

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Nahh, man, you’re missing the obvious gold mine. According to Matt, all we need to do is certify each other as guides and we’ll get 60% off everything! Heck, you guided me and others on the RF. Come on down and I’ll guide you in the Gila. The NC boys are about to guide a whole clave! We’ll all join the Sage Tackle Team. Jon "I was CPR-certified 15 years ago if that counts" Cook.

    always good to hear from a colleague!  how’s business, fellow guide?     for the firm ol 60% himself, wayno

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I would be more than happy to write articles "from the beginner’s perspective", i.e., chronicling the abuses beginning anglers put on equipment, through humorous anecdotes.  I would also apply to be one of the Washington (the one with Steelheads, not softheads, I’ve lived there too) corespondents but there may be some competition, I hear there may be one or two other anglers in the state :0) Hatch – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy All. If any of you are in the flyfishing tackle manufacturing or retail business, I just wanted to let you all know that I provide excellent and comprehensive field testing and critical review of any/all products. Simply mail me the equipment you need tested and I promise I will. Of course, the equipment can not be returned. Always glad to help out where I can. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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<<Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer

T-Bone, I think you may be on to something there. We need to start a new business, (costing us nothing of course). At least 10 ROFFIANS from each state should be field testing equipment, including the Bastard and the Grand Am. This would give a companies a wide variety of hands on usage under different conditions and different geographical locations, with us reporting back every week/month. (George, you have 2 volunteers right now). Waddaya think? Big Al……. Man, you guys are gonna get in trouble.  I can hear the black helocopters hovering and the Usenet Gestapos waiting to getcha!  

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Howdy All. If any of you are in the flyfishing tackle manufacturing or retail business, I just wanted to let you all know that I provide excellent and comprehensive field testing and critical review of any/all products. Simply mail me the equipment you need tested and I promise I will. Of course, the equipment can not be returned. Always glad to help out where I can. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy All. If any of you are in the flyfishing tackle manufacturing or retail business, I just wanted to let you all know that I provide excellent and comprehensive field testing and critical review of any/all products. Simply mail me the equipment you need tested and I promise I will. Of course, the equipment can not be returned. Always glad to help out where I can. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer

T-Bone, I think you may be on to something there. We need to start a new business, (costing us nothing of course). At least 10 ROFFIANS from each state should be field testing equipment, including the Bastard and the Grand Am. This would give a companies a wide variety of hands on usage under different conditions and different geographical locations, with us reporting back every week/month. (George, you have 2 volunteers right now). Waddaya think? Big Al…….

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Question:

Hi! I would not look too far at the LL line unless you are fairly proficient at casting slower rods.  I am a modestly skilled fly caster and find that the Sage LL rods impart line bounce unless I’m casting very short or with excellent timing.  Which is not usually the case for me.  A better compromise would be a Powell or the newer, faster Orvis rods.  The faster Sage rods tend to be too fast/stiff.  My opinion, of course. The best way I’ve found to judge the fishability of a rod in one of those stupid parking lot try-outs is to shop for rods on windy days.  Try making casts at your own fishing distance limits.  Also, try short casts at a specific target.  Then make mistakes purposely in timing and line control to see if the rod lets you still make a reasonable cast. If you do these things, you’ll probably buy a Fenwick HMG.  With the money you save, you can buy a jewel of a reel.  Or another rod. Good Luck! Mike Tuomey

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Mike, I guess you are not very surprised to find somebody to dissagree on that matter. The SAGE 389-3LL is probably my most used rod and it makes wonderful, precise and easy casting, independent if I have to cast only the leader up to a full line length. Performance of this rod for dry fly fishing and light nymphing is unbeatable and you will find yourself able to fish a #28 midge on 8x tippet as well as a size 8 Wooly Bugger over the whole distance range. Bring this rod to your favourite spring creek where you need very precise and sometimes long casts and you already won half of the game. In my hand this rod has even proven itself under very windy days (e.g. at Slough Creek) where it’s butt strength comes in very handy. Tight lines Thomas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi! I would not look too far at the LL line unless you are fairly proficient at casting slower rods.  I am a modestly skilled fly caster and find that the Sage LL rods impart line bounce unless I’m casting very short or with excellent timing.  Which is not usually the case for me.  A better compromise would be a Powell or the newer, faster Orvis rods.  The faster Sage rods tend to be too fast/stiff.  My opinion, of course. The best way I’ve found to judge the fishability of a rod in one of those stupid parking lot try-outs is to shop for rods on windy days.  Try making casts at your own fishing distance limits.  Also, try short casts at a specific target.  Then make mistakes purposely in timing and line control to see if the rod lets you still make a reasonable cast. If you do these things, you’ll probably buy a Fenwick HMG.  With the money you save, you can buy a jewel of a reel.  Or another rod. Good Luck! Mike Tuomey

– Thomas Urbig

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was wondering if someone could provide me with information on LL Bean’s LL Saltwater Rods.  For instance: 1.      Who makes the blanks. 2.      To which models made by their competitors is the action most comparable. 3.      How well do they hold up (i.e., do they tend to break when fighting fish). 4.      Would they be suitable for steelhead fishing? I am considering getting a 9 wt.  Any advice would be much appreciated.

I don’t know anything about the LLBean rod but I suspect they are not making it themselves. I can however give a glowing recommendation to G Loomis IM6 9wght 9′.   Its great!  Has good feel and balance.  I do alot of steelhead fishing in the northshore of Lake Superior and the lakes south shore along wisconsin.  I have never lost a fish because of that rod and have had a lot of fun with it.   Good luck! Lee Clore "I once caught a brook trout smaller than the mosquitoe that was chewing the shit out of my arm"                 Quote from unnamed flyfisherman in Whitewater St Park, MN

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was wondering if someone could provide me with information on LL Bean’s LL Saltwater Rods.  For instance: 1.      Who makes the blanks. 2.      To which models made by their competitors is the action most comparable. 3.      How well do they hold up (i.e., do they tend to break when fighting fish). 4.      Would they be suitable for steelhead fishing? I am considering getting a 9 wt.  Any advice would be much appreciated.

A few issues back one of the saltwater flyfishing mags did an article called "9 Weight Shootout" or something to that effect. Virtually all the better known manufacturers submitted rods to be evaluated. The rods were tested with several different lines. It was similar to tests in ski magazines, and I thought it was well done. Anyway, the L.L.Bean rod was rated as one of the top 1 or 2 rods. I don’t remember if it was in "Fly Fishing In Salt Waters" or in "Saltwater Fly Fishing", but I’d recommend you check it out. I’ll see if I can locate it tonite.                                                         jc

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I can however give a glowing recommendation to G Loomis IM6 9wght 9′.   Its great!  Has good feel and balance.  I do alot of steelhead fishing in the northshore of Lake Superior and the lakes south shore along wisconsin.  I have never lost a fish because of that rod and have had a lot of fun with it.   Good luck! Lee Clore

Lee, I saw your post about fishing Superior along the Wisconsin border.  I’ve been invited to fish the Bruel the 2nd week of Oct.  Any info you can give me regarding the conditions I could expect would be appreciated. Also, what kind of rig do you use.  I’ve had the "chuck & Duck" system described to me (i.e.. little or no fly line), but would be interested in your opinions on the matter. Thanks Rick Padgett

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i have a 11 weight rod, action is a little stiff, casts well in windy conditions, ive caught stripped bass in the 30-35 inch range without any difficultly

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(MaineTrip) writes: ive caught stripped bass in the 30-35 inch range without any difficultly

Bummer, if I’m catching fish that large I’d be disappointed if they didn’t give me some difficulty.        Jim

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I was wondering if someone could provide me with information on LL Bean’s LL Saltwater Rods.  For instance: 1.      Who makes the blanks. 2.      To which models made by their competitors is the action most comparable. 3.      How well do they hold up (i.e., do they tend to break when fighting fish). 4.      Would they be suitable for steelhead fishing? I am considering getting a 9 wt.  Any advice would be much appreciated.

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Question:

I think the biggest advantage of barbless hooks is its easier to get them out of your clothes, waders, and skin :<

drying patch, fly box and the other tunnels into the spiritual plane. TimW

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : Umm… Bud?  Isn’t Sedona, like, in the desert? : I don’t want to condone the spam-like message to "SAVE SEDONA" but : thought : I’d comment about the surrounding area. Sedona is about 5000′ elevation : and : to the north sits Oak Creek Canyon. The creek can produce some nice fish : (17" rainbow caught last weekend) and 18" browns caught earlier this : year. I’m amazed by this.  I’ve only been there in summer(once) and winter(once) but each time there was *so much* activity in the stream by little humans that I didn’t believe it was a viable fishing spot for anything larger than 10 inches. Is it possible you caught planted stock?  Is it possible you are engaging in the oldest fishing pastime and stretching things a wee bit? : A 10 mile drive up the canyon will put you in the largest ponderosa pine : forest : in the U.S. at about 7000′ elevation (Yes it does snow in Arizona!!!). : Living only : 30 minutes away from the creek makes it a popular after work flyfishing : spot for : me. I wasn’t putting the area down, only trying to tone down the rhetoric which follows many tourist centers:  "We have everything, and it’s great!" I love the Sedona area for what it is… a wonderful desert area fairly close to respectable (if picked clean) mountains.  The area surely has much to offer, but my limited experience suggests it is not a destination fly fishing area.  I admit, I fished the lower parts of the creek, and there, the water seemed too warm to support large fish.  (Perhaps I should fact the fact I can only catch larger fish in water I know.)  I’m surprised to learn the humans haven’t scared the fish away. —

Rick, I’m not claiming Oak Creek is place to go catch large fish on a regular basis. In fact, 8 to 10 inch fish are the norm. On those rare occasions, some larger fish can be caught.  No way as far as planted stockers go (we affectionately call those things finless wonders here in AZ). I’ve been known to stretch the truth on some occasions. This weekend (at Oak Creek) I landed a brown that I thought went 15". Actual measurement was just over 14" (using the lettering on my flyrod). Even if I was off on the other fish a 17" brown and 16" rainbow aren’t bad for Oak Creek. As far as people pressure goes you’re right. I’ve had some tough days due to the number of tourists, hikers, swimmers, etc on the creek. So I fish it real early and stay away from the campgrounds (6am – 10am I didn’t see a soul on the creek this weekend). If you ever wander through Sedona again stop by the store at Don Hoel’s cabins. They have some pictures from the 1960’s to the late 1980’s showing browns in the 21-25 inch range. There may not be alot of those big hogs in Oak Creek now-a-days but I know where a few lay. Jeff Anderson http://www.woolybugger.com

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: : Umm… Bud?  Isn’t Sedona, like, in the desert? : I don’t want to condone the spam-like message to "SAVE SEDONA" but : thought : I’d comment about the surrounding area. Sedona is about 5000′ elevation : and : to the north sits Oak Creek Canyon. The creek can produce some nice fish : (17" rainbow caught last weekend) and 18" browns caught earlier this : year. I’m amazed by this.  I’ve only been there in summer(once) and winter(once) but each time there was *so much* activity in the stream by little humans that I didn’t believe it was a viable fishing spot for anything larger than 10 inches. Is it possible you caught planted stock?  Is it possible you are engaging in the oldest fishing pastime and stretching things a wee bit? : A 10 mile drive up the canyon will put you in the largest ponderosa pine : forest : in the U.S. at about 7000′ elevation (Yes it does snow in Arizona!!!). : Living only : 30 minutes away from the creek makes it a popular after work flyfishing : spot for : me. I wasn’t putting the area down, only trying to tone down the rhetoric which follows many tourist centers:  "We have everything, and it’s great!" I love the Sedona area for what it is… a wonderful desert area fairly close to respectable (if picked clean) mountains.  The area surely has much to offer, but my limited experience suggests it is not a destination fly fishing area.  I admit, I fished the lower parts of the creek, and there, the water seemed too warm to support large fish.  (Perhaps I should fact the fact I can only catch larger fish in water I know.)  I’m surprised to learn the humans haven’t scared the fish away. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: there, the water seemed too warm to support large fish.  (Perhaps I should : face the fact I can only catch larger fish in water I know.)  I’m : surprised to learn the humans haven’t scared the fish away. I forgot to mention the obvious: I stand corrected. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: there, the water seemed too warm to support large fish.  (Perhaps I should : face the fact I can only catch larger fish in water I know.)  I’m : surprised to learn the humans haven’t scared the fish away. I forgot to mention the obvious: I stand corrected.

and those neoprenes show every bulge too… ohhh…COrected…! My mistake ! TimW

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : Umm… Bud?  Isn’t Sedona, like, in the desert? : I don’t want to condone the spam-like message to "SAVE SEDONA" but : thought : I’d comment about the surrounding area. Sedona is about 5000′ elevation : and : to the north sits Oak Creek Canyon. The creek can produce some nice fish : (17" rainbow caught last weekend) and 18" browns caught earlier this : year. I’m amazed by this.  I’ve only been there in summer(once) and winter(once) but each time there was *so much* activity in the stream by little humans that I didn’t believe it was a viable fishing spot for anything larger than 10 inches. Is it possible you caught planted stock?  Is it possible you are engaging in the oldest fishing pastime and stretching things a wee bit?

Is it possible you were huffin’ some Sedona Red ? TimW

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Umm… Bud?  Isn’t Sedona, like, in the desert?

I don’t want to condone the spam-like message to "SAVE SEDONA" but thought I’d comment about the surrounding area. Sedona is about 5000′ elevation and to the north sits Oak Creek Canyon. The creek can produce some nice fish (17" rainbow caught last weekend) and 18" browns caught earlier this year. A 10 mile drive up the canyon will put you in the largest ponderosa pine forest in the U.S. at about 7000′ elevation (Yes it does snow in Arizona!!!). Living only 30 minutes away from the creek makes it a popular after work flyfishing spot for me. That’s my 2cents worth. Jeff Anderson http://www.woolybugger.com

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Umm… Bud?  Isn’t Sedona, like, in the desert?<

Yee who doesn’t know shouldn’t open his mouth.  Seeing is believing. dp

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: !!! SAVE SEDONA !!! : HELP US SAVE SEDONA : If you support Fishing Opportunities, Umm… Bud?  Isn’t Sedona, like, in the desert? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Rick, Visit Sedona someday and you will find a lovely little desert town with a very nice river running through it (to borrow a phrase).   Besides, anyone who lives in "Moscow" should not cast stones at other places.   Dave — Dave http://avery.med.virginia.edu/~dcb/home.html David C. Benjamin, Ph.D., Professor               Office (804) 924-2631 Beirne B. Carter Center for Immunology Research   Lab    (804) 982-1679 MR4 Box 4012, University of Virginia Health       FAX    (804) 924-1221 Sciences Center, Charlottesville, VA 22908        Email

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: !!! SAVE SEDONA !!! : HELP US SAVE SEDONA : If you support Fishing Opportunities, Umm… Bud?  Isn’t Sedona, like, in the desert?   — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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!!! SAVE SEDONA !!! Thank you for taking the time to read my post … I REALLY NEED YOUR HELP! My name is Rama and I am the owner of the only REAL bikeshop (Mountain Bike Heaven) in Sedona AZ and I need your help! The local Forest Service folks are having their final meeting at 9AM tomorrow morning (9/4) to accept final public input on the new management plan =93Ideas for the Future=94. One of the proposals included in the =93Ideas for the Future=94 are more lands trades within our surrounding area.  Here=92s the way it works, the Forest Service gives a chunk of our local Forest to a developer and the developer hands them cash and a deed to some unknown piece of land.  Of course, the Forest Service always tells us these =93deals=94 are always for the =93best interests=94 of all concerned parties.   The problem is they (USFS) keep trading away all our local hiking, biking, equestrian and nature opportunities. WE DONT NEED ANY MORE DEVELOPMENT! Our local infrastructure is already at the boiling point trying to cope with too much growth: no sewers, no roads, no phones … HELP US SAVE THE FORESTS! HELP US SAVE SEDONA If you support Hiking Opportunities, If you support Biking Opportunities, If you support Camping Opportunities, If you support Climbing Opportunites, If you support Fishing Opportunities, If you support Equestrian Opportunities, If you support any Outdoor Opportunity, If you like Sedona, If you like Arizona If you like the Forest, If you like Nature … Write your own letter or copy and mail the passage below.  I will take your email to the meeting tomorrow and we will show the Forest Service that we don=92t want anymore land trades.  Thanks for your help. Dear Forest Service Folks, I am opposed to ALL land trades in and around the Sedona area.  Please register my opinion and take it into consideration as you construct your =93Ideas for the Future=94 …         Name …         Age …         State …         City …         Country … Thanks for your Support!   Thanks for your help! RAMA BTW … when you=92re in Sedona stop by my shop "Mountain Bike Heaven" in West Sedona and say Hi! If I have some time maybe we can go for a ride. Wait, I have regularly scheduled FREE group rides on Wed, Sat and Sun — I can always ride then … Have Fun! is at http://www.ibike.com/mountainbikeheaven/index.htm

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Question:

I’m planning a trip to the Yellowstone area in early September.  Does any one have advice on the best bets that time of year?  Any favorite places that you wouldn’t pass up if driving through the Park? Thanks for any help, Mike Fair

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Mike, …..theres a lot of fishing in and around the park. Call Dan Baillys(sp?) in Livingston or any other Fly Fishing store to get advise with in a week of your trip.The rivers in Montana are still high due to the heavy snows. I own Hawley Mt. guest Ranch 25 miles north of Yellowstone on the Boulder River and we offer lodging and fishing but we have a 4 day min. You can call me 406-932-5791 and I will be happy to tell you about the conditions.                                                                       Bryant BBlewett

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Mike, …..theres a lot of fishing in and around the park. Call Dan Baillys(sp?) in Livingston or any other Fly Fishing store to get advise with in a week of your trip.The rivers in Montana are still high due to the heavy snows. I own Hawley Mt. guest Ranch 25 miles north of Yellowstone on the Boulder River and we offer lodging and fishing but we have a 4 day min. You can call me 406-932-5791 and I will be happy to tell you about the conditions.                                                                      Bryant BBlewett

I was there a couple years ago for a week following Labor Day.  It turned out to be a great time to be in Yellowstone.  Most of the facilities were still open, but there weren’t very many people in the park.  Most of the  people who were there stayed on the busses or in the gift shops.  My wife and I were often by ourselves on the rivers or the hiking trails. I fished the Yellowstone in several spots, the Firehole and several of the creeks which feed into the Yellowstone.  The rivers were full of Cutthroat  I was recently recalling this trip and decided that I will return in September ‘97 to see if it was really as good as I remembered it. One warning, the park facilities only stay open for about two weeks after Labor Day, at which point everything by Old Faithful Lodge starts closing down. Please report back if you go this September. Tim Johnson

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Mike,  Everything should be fishing well at that time with the late runoff and all.  If the weather is warm the madison below Quake lake should be good for hoppers.  Many shops in West can supply flies and info. I hate driving in the park, but the uppper northeast area is a fav. spot.  Soda Butte creek towards Cooke City and even the Clarks Fork past Cooke City. Doug Stephens

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Question:

Regarding the Upper Sac…. Last year I fished it with lures not flies due to the fact I didnt know how to fly fish:) I caught some beautiful McCloud Redbands around the Sim’s Campground area. Nice place to stay and good trails to walk the river up and down for a couple miles or so along the train tracks. Kurtz-

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If anybody could tell me what the first hatch of the year in the Upper Sac.  I would appreciate it.  My tying is slow, and I need to get as many as I can.  Any spots or stories are always welcome too.

Hello, The first hatch of the year on the Upper Sac is the famous Bead Head Prince Nymph hatch.  :-)  Sorry. Ok, actually it’s probably the Baetis, but the stoneflies get more attention. Both  salmonflies and golden stones will hatch, though it seems the numbers are down since the spill. Besides the standard stonefly imitations (Sofa Pillow, Stimulator, etc.) definitely try the Orange Humpy – for some reason it’s always a good searching pattern on the Sac (Pteronarcys, October Caddis?). Don’t forget to keep a few Green Drakes in your box. Last year I happened to be fortunate enough to be there when they came off and it was "stupid" fishing. Don’t let anybody fool ya’, the Sac is *still* a great river. Good fishing,    Alan.   Alan Barnard   Kiene’s Fly Shop   Sacramento, California   WWW Fly Tyer   http://www.ns.net/~barnard

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If anybody could tell me what the first hatch of the year in the Upper Sac.  I would appreciate it.  My tying is slow, and I need to get as many as I can.  Any spots or stories are always welcome too.

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In article If anybody could tell me what the first hatch of the year in the Upper Sac.  I would appreciate it.  My tying is slow, and I need to get as many as I can.  Any spots or stories are always welcome too.

I am sure there are caddis coming off already but it’s not open season there until April 27th.  As the water will be very high when it does open, you should tie up plenty of bead head nymphs – I find light green and regular hare’s ears do well there.  Dry fly fishing will be worthwhile on the side eddies and pockets with caddis emergers and dries, especially in the evenings, but you’ll get more action throughout the day with a two-nymph rig in the pockets as long as the current is down enough for the pockets to exist.  If not cast them right into the white water and hold the rod high and follow them down, what they call high-sticking.  Be careful wading as this river can be slippery. If you have an appreciation for flyfishing oldtimers, be sure to visit the Ted Fay Fly Shop located on the main street on the north end of Dunsmuir. You’ll want some black bombers like Ted Fay fly shop sells – lead wire under black yarn fat body with bit of grizzly hackle and optional splayed grizzly hackle tips for wings. If you are a home brewer fill a carboy at any of the fountains in Dunsmuir – this "best water on earth" makes for the best homebrew too. Here’s some reminiscing: I used to fish the area around Pollard Flat close to lake Shasta when I was a student and had no money.  I would take the Greyhound bus and have the driver drop me off there on I5, set up camp and fish a day or two then hike or hitchhike up to Dunsmuir to take the bus home. Back before about 1984 there was a free forest service campground a short walk from the all night truck diner there at Pollard Flat. I could fish all day up the river and hike back along the tracks in the dark, then instead of cooking in the dark enjoy a cheap cheeseburger and a lettuce salad and read a Field and Stream and even see a little TV.   They had Anchor Steam beer for 75 cents a bottle which was cheaper than buying sixpacks in SF.   This lower section usually had less fish but a high proportion of them were big.  There was one bend that always had a giant trout surface feeding that I could never approach without putting down, year after year. Joe Kinsey at the Ted Fay Fly Shop showed me their crude-looking flies which looked pretty much exactly like the smaller than normal black stonefles they had in vials in the shop, and told me some good places right there in Dunsmuir.  One time I caught ten good trout in one spot and after the third fish the fly was just a ragged blob of black yarn but it kept working better and better.  From this I learned that those pretty and delicate looking flies aren’t what you want. Later when I had an income I tried to take two friends up there. The campground was closed and overgrown, the diner had been sold and had born again reactionary hate messages posted on the walls inside and they had no beer at any price. From this I learned to enjoy things while you can. The weekend before it was wiped out in the pesticide spill I stopped enroute from the Klamath are caught a rainbow that took me into the backing but turned out to only be about 12 inches long – this must be some kind of record.   Have a good time – it is still a beautiful river and getting better all the time. Mark Vinsel http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.html

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Question:

I’m new to fly fishing. Been reading, watching videos, practicing casts in the yard. A local shop is hosting a Sage clinic next month. Anyone have experience with these clinics? Are they worthwhile for a beginner? Thanks, Barbara

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Barbara,    Yes absolutely!! Go for it!  It will save you years of trial and error and years of correcting bad habits.  Iteach fly fishing schools for Orvis on the West Coast and I wish these kind of schools had been around when I started!!  Usually they will provide the equipment for the class so you don’t have to (and shouldn’t) make a purchase until after you get some basic skills and can try out various rods to see which one feels best to you.  Casting a fly rod is not instinctive, but it is also not hard to learn.  Once you understand the dynamics of the cast it will make more sense.  As far as videos go in my opinion the Mel Krieger video "Essence of FlyCasting (vol. 1)" is the best.  If you haven’t seen it do so.  Keep at it.                                                           Good Fishing!                                                                     Dan

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: I’m new to fly fishing. Been reading, watching videos, practicing casts in : the yard. A local shop is hosting a Sage clinic next month. Anyone have : experience with these clinics? Are they worthwhile for a beginner?  Depends on who is teaching them. Sage usually hook up with decent local instructors (guides and the like) Where are you located? Most FF stores offer casting clinics of some kind – probably cheaper than one with the Sage name attached – Call around. tim

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I’m new to fly fishing. Been reading, watching videos, practicing casts in the yard. A local shop is hosting a Sage clinic next month. Anyone have experience with these clinics? Are they worthwhile for a beginner? Thanks, Barbara

I attended a Sage casting clinic in Santa Fe a few years back, and spent a hot afternoon practicing on a soccer field.  The instructors were good and, in my opinion, the clinic was well worth the $30 or $35 fee. Although casting is only a small part of fly fishing, good instruction is worth its weight in gold to a beginner. My only advice would be to bring along a lightweight glove– my casting hand was blistered at the end of the day!

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