Question:

Nothing ventured, nothing gained…go for it.  My experience on Lakes Michigan and Superior in a 24-ft cabin boat has been good, but I venture out with radar, GPS-chartplotter, Loran, 2 VHF radios, 2 depthfinders, and a backup 15-hp outboard motor.  And I nearly always see, at the boat launch, some crusty old fisherman heading out in a 14-ft jon boat with 25-hp outboard…amazing balls. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

Unless you get 4 miles to the gallon, forget it.  1/3 out, 1/3 in and a 1/3 in reserve.  Tuna requires trolling, lots at about 8-9 mph.  Not enough fuel capacity, unless the albies get inside of about 10 miles.  I have a 21′ and carry 67 gallon, and get about 2 mpg and I won’t do it.  Post a request to be a hitchhiker on the www.Coastsidefishingclub.com board and you will get a ride and live to fish again. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you. I’ve gone 20-30 miles in the Atlantic in smaller boats than that. You really need expertise in weather observation, a high antenna on a fixed, not portable, VHF radio, an extra battery and enough smarts to know when not to go out. And bring along a spare six gallon tank and hose. Try going out in the company of a couple of boats. And buy yourself some Type I life jackets, the real deal kind, and consider an EPIRB. Make sure you have a way to climb back in your boat if you get knocked overboard. Same here.  The buddy system applies.  Dont’ quite agree with the 6 gallon tank theory, however.  That would get me about 5 miles closer before I choke…..

Response:

Hello, Thanks for the replies and will not venture out without the recommendations. No EPIRB here. Just some safety flares. The boats a 1990 Bayliner cuddy, dual batteries, reliable with rebuilt powerhead. I bought this second hand and always thought it had a 30gallon tank. I always refill the tank before a trip so dont know how much it really holds..lol. thanks! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is all well and good. It is not the size of the boat in question. The boat you mention obviously held a lot more than 30 gallons of fuel. I would also strongly suspect that he had more than a hand held VHF for emergency communication needs. Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Tred Barta made his name fishing bigeyes 85-90 miles out of Shinnecock Inlet in the "Randi Strike", a 19′ Mako CC. That was 25 years ago.

Response:

Be nice Harry… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Thanks for the replies and will not venture out without the recommendations. No EPIRB here. Just some safety flares. The boats a 1990 Bayliner cuddy, dual batteries, reliable with rebuilt powerhead. I bought this second hand and always thought it had a 30gallon tank. I always refill the tank before a trip so dont know how much it really holds..lol. thanks! This is all well and good. It is not the size of the boat in question. The boat you mention obviously held a lot more than 30 gallons of fuel. I would also strongly suspect that he had more than a hand held VHF for emergency communication needs. Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Tred Barta made his name fishing bigeyes 85-90 miles out of Shinnecock Inlet in the "Randi Strike", a 19′ Mako CC. That was 25 years ago.

Response:

Be nice Harry…

How can he? He’s the consummate evildoer of this NG. — Skipper

Response:

Hello, Thanks for the replies and will not venture out without the recommendations. No EPIRB here. Just some safety flares. The boats a 1990 Bayliner cuddy, dual batteries, reliable with rebuilt powerhead. I bought this second hand and always thought it had a 30gallon tank. I always refill the tank before a trip so dont know how much it really holds..lol. thanks!

Yikes!  Is it a Force outboard?  I wouldn’t trust that setup, 13 years old, offshore.  Especially if you don’t know how much gas it holds.  How old are the batteries?  Do you have towing insurance?  Just some more questions to think about…

Response:

JAX has just reduced his percentage of useful posts to about 8% with the latests posts…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ben thur, dun dat writes to tell us just how scared he is of the water with: (way to go, bt,dd) geesh.  another guy tied to the dock when the wind is greater than 8 knots and telling how safety conscious he is. Like Harry, I would strongly suggest an installed VHF with tall antenna – hand held only broadcast 3-5 miles with their 3 watt output max. (you might get a little better in ideal conditions – but don’t bet your life on it! Installed will get you up to around 25 mile range fairly reliably (potential further)- 25 watts out put makes a world of difference. I also agree that EPIRB would be a good idea. But definitely do not trust the hand held VHF to get you help in a jam. Dan touched on what may be an even bigger concern – 30 gallon gas tank. You state that you have a 120 HP. Is this an outboard or I/OF? What is your gas consumption = MPG? If this is a gas I/OF – very common in 20′ cuddies I would be very concerned about getting out 20 miles and back on that amount of fuel. If you hit any surprises in weather – cut MPG in half or more! Most I/Os on that size boat will get around 2 -3 MPG in reasonably calm conditions. Not a lot of room for error. Weather is the real wildcard. Pick your days and keep an eye on the sky. I have been out 20 miles in a center console about that size off Hatters, NC. It is doable…but keep a real close eye on the weather — gets pretty breezy & rough in the area you are talking about. I fished on a charter in that basic area a couple of years ago – charter boat was mid 30′ bridge boat – we got tossed around pretty good. About six weeks ago I was fishing out of Ft. Lauderdale.  We ended up a bit over 20 miles out before we gave up on fishing and decided to go to Bimini (Bahamas).  I found it on my GPSmap 76 and off we went.  It was 58 miles from port to port and we made the trip back in just over two hours.  The amazing part is that we burned only 28 gallons of gas on this 116 mile round trip with at least a hour of trolling included.  We were in my 20′ center console with a 115 four stroke. It’s all a matter of sea conditions and the weather.  This was an incredibly flat day with clear skies.  We were prepared to leave the boat in Bimini and fly back as a last resort if the weather went to hell on us.  This was one of those stupid "so I can say I was there" trips. Typically I will go out only 15 – 20 miles.  At that point there are still plenty of other boats in the area and usually cell phone coverage if the VHF craps out. Are you sure you only have a 30 gallon fuel tank?  That would be my #1 concern.  The handheld VHF would be right there at #2. Dan Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

Well, I’ve never been "offshore" except twice around Cape Caution, but…    I agree about the redundancy. Get, at the least, a good "get-you-home" kicker with a separate fuel tank.    An in-dash VHF is under $200 – why not? And it sounds like an EPIRB is a good idea too.    Another good idea would be an inflatable dinghy to get into if the boat DOES sink. "Real" offshore boats have special emergency rafts that autoinflate, etc. but you probably don’t need to go that far.    And I can never understand boaters who don’t know how much fuel they carry, or what their range is! DEFINELY find out what your range is, and the range of your kicker, before venturing any distance. Lloyd Sumpter "Valkyrie" Campion 18 – 20 gals, 110mile range – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Thanks for the replies and will not venture out without the recommendations. No EPIRB here. Just some safety flares. The boats a 1990 Bayliner cuddy, dual batteries, reliable with rebuilt powerhead. I bought this second hand and always thought it had a 30gallon tank. I always refill the tank before a trip so dont know how much it really holds..lol. thanks! This is all well and good. It is not the size of the boat in question. The boat you mention obviously held a lot more than 30 gallons of fuel. I would also strongly suspect that he had more than a hand held VHF for emergency communication needs. Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Tred Barta made his name fishing bigeyes 85-90 miles out of Shinnecock Inlet in the "Randi Strike", a 19′ Mako CC. That was 25 years ago.

Response:

Your comments on redundancy are right on the money in my experience. On the other hand, I’ve seen those "gentle blue water rollers" break onto the deck of a 50 footer.  On a 50 foot boat that just creates a little commotion for a few seconds, but in a 20 foot cuddy you’re likely to get a sinking sensation. Looking beyond gear failure, there are some other risks difficult to avoid such as late afternoon thunderstorms, fast moving cold fronts, and breaking conditions in the inlets caused by tide and offshore swells.  Things can change in a hurry even on a day that starts board flat and looks stable.  Important to remember that small boats have small safety margins. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I always have been told and adhered to the redundancy rule. A backup for everything when going off-shore. Such as engines, fuel tanks, radios, batteries(you got that covered), safety equipment, food, water etc. Are you sure you want to trust everything to your set up with no redundancy? I spend my time in the mid Chesapeake Bay in a 26′ Bayliner. The rollers there can get pretty nasty with high frequency four to six footers. I’ve been told blue water rollers are more gentle because of the lower frequency. Your seamanship is to be applauded, but I suggest you adopt more redundancy.

Response:

I always have been told and adhered to the redundancy rule. A backup for everything when going off-shore. Such as engines, fuel tanks, radios, batteries(you got that covered), safety equipment, food, water etc. Are you sure you want to trust everything to your set up with no redundancy? I spend my time in the mid Chesapeake Bay in a 26′ Bayliner. The rollers there can get pretty nasty with high frequency four to six footers. I’ve been told blue water rollers are more gentle because of the lower frequency. Your seamanship is to be applauded, but I suggest you adopt more redundancy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Thanks for the replies and will not venture out without the recommendations. No EPIRB here. Just some safety flares. The boats a 1990 Bayliner cuddy, dual batteries, reliable with rebuilt powerhead. I bought this second hand and always thought it had a 30gallon tank. I always refill the tank before a trip so dont know how much it really holds..lol. thanks! This is all well and good. It is not the size of the boat in question. The boat you mention obviously held a lot more than 30 gallons of fuel. I would also strongly suspect that he had more than a hand held VHF for emergency communication needs. Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Tred Barta made his name fishing bigeyes 85-90 miles out of Shinnecock Inlet in the "Randi Strike", a 19′ Mako CC. That was 25 years ago.

Response:

ben thur, dun dat writes to tell us just how scared he is of the water with: (way to go, bt,dd) geesh.  another guy tied to the dock when the wind is greater than 8 knots and telling how safety conscious he is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Like Harry, I would strongly suggest an installed VHF with tall antenna – hand held only broadcast 3-5 miles with their 3 watt output max. (you might get a little better in ideal conditions – but don’t bet your life on it! Installed will get you up to around 25 mile range fairly reliably (potential further)- 25 watts out put makes a world of difference. I also agree that EPIRB would be a good idea. But definitely do not trust the hand held VHF to get you help in a jam. Dan touched on what may be an even bigger concern – 30 gallon gas tank. You state that you have a 120 HP. Is this an outboard or I/OF? What is your gas consumption = MPG? If this is a gas I/OF – very common in 20′ cuddies I would be very concerned about getting out 20 miles and back on that amount of fuel. If you hit any surprises in weather – cut MPG in half or more! Most I/Os on that size boat will get around 2 -3 MPG in reasonably calm conditions. Not a lot of room for error. Weather is the real wildcard. Pick your days and keep an eye on the sky. I have been out 20 miles in a center console about that size off Hatters, NC. It is doable…but keep a real close eye on the weather — gets pretty breezy & rough in the area you are talking about. I fished on a charter in that basic area a couple of years ago – charter boat was mid 30′ bridge boat – we got tossed around pretty good. About six weeks ago I was fishing out of Ft. Lauderdale.  We ended up a bit over 20 miles out before we gave up on fishing and decided to go to Bimini (Bahamas).  I found it on my GPSmap 76 and off we went.  It was 58 miles from port to port and we made the trip back in just over two hours.  The amazing part is that we burned only 28 gallons of gas on this 116 mile round trip with at least a hour of trolling included.  We were in my 20′ center console with a 115 four stroke. It’s all a matter of sea conditions and the weather.  This was an incredibly flat day with clear skies.  We were prepared to leave the boat in Bimini and fly back as a last resort if the weather went to hell on us.  This was one of those stupid "so I can say I was there" trips. Typically I will go out only 15 – 20 miles.  At that point there are still plenty of other boats in the area and usually cell phone coverage if the VHF craps out. Are you sure you only have a 30 gallon fuel tank?  That would be my #1 concern.  The handheld VHF would be right there at #2. Dan Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

Like Harry, I would strongly suggest an installed VHF with tall antenna – hand held only broadcast 3-5 miles with their 3 watt output max. (you might get a little better in ideal conditions – but don’t bet your life on it! Installed will get you up to around 25 mile range fairly reliably (potential further)- 25 watts out put makes a world of difference. I also agree that EPIRB would be a good idea. But definitely do not trust the hand held VHF to get you help in a jam. Dan touched on what may be an even bigger concern – 30 gallon gas tank. You state that you have a 120 HP. Is this an outboard or I/OF? What is your gas consumption = MPG? If this is a gas I/OF – very common in 20′ cuddies I would be very concerned about getting out 20 miles and back on that amount of fuel. If you hit any surprises in weather – cut MPG in half or more! Most I/Os on that size boat will get around 2 -3 MPG in reasonably calm conditions. Not a lot of room for error. Weather is the real wildcard. Pick your days and keep an eye on the sky. I have been out 20 miles in a center console about that size off Hatters, NC. It is doable…but keep a real close eye on the weather — gets pretty breezy & rough in the area you are talking about. I fished on a charter in that basic area a couple of years ago – charter boat was mid 30′ bridge boat – we got tossed around pretty good.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About six weeks ago I was fishing out of Ft. Lauderdale.  We ended up a bit over 20 miles out before we gave up on fishing and decided to go to Bimini (Bahamas).  I found it on my GPSmap 76 and off we went.  It was 58 miles from port to port and we made the trip back in just over two hours.  The amazing part is that we burned only 28 gallons of gas on this 116 mile round trip with at least a hour of trolling included.  We were in my 20′ center console with a 115 four stroke. It’s all a matter of sea conditions and the weather.  This was an incredibly flat day with clear skies.  We were prepared to leave the boat in Bimini and fly back as a last resort if the weather went to hell on us.  This was one of those stupid "so I can say I was there" trips. Typically I will go out only 15 – 20 miles.  At that point there are still plenty of other boats in the area and usually cell phone coverage if the VHF craps out. Are you sure you only have a 30 gallon fuel tank?  That would be my #1 concern.  The handheld VHF would be right there at #2. Dan Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy?

Tred Barta made his name fishing bigeyes 85-90 miles out of Shinnecock Inlet in the "Randi Strike", a 19′ Mako CC. That was 25 years ago.

Response:

This is all well and good. It is not the size of the boat in question. The boat you mention obviously held a lot more than 30 gallons of fuel. I would also strongly suspect that he had more than a hand held VHF for emergency communication needs.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Tred Barta made his name fishing bigeyes 85-90 miles out of Shinnecock Inlet in the "Randi Strike", a 19′ Mako CC. That was 25 years ago.

Response:

30 gallons sounds awfully small for a 20 ft. boat.  

Agreed.  And 120Hp seems like a very small engine, as well. My 18′ CC has a 150HP Merc OB and a 60-gallon tank.   I would strongly advise against going further out, without making some major adjustments in his capabilities. e.g. installing more fuel capacity, and being almost fanatical about weather-watching. I’ve been 40-50 miles out (in a commercial fishing boat) in the Pacific out of Oregon, and it was pretty scary.  Unlike the short-period waves we have in the Gulf, these were HUGE rollers, a city block or more thick.  I’d hate to be out there when they started kicking up. 120hp and 30 gallons of gas, in a 20 footer? No way. Ron M.

Response:

Jim,     I’d be surprised if your handheld VHF was strong enough, 25 miles out, to reach shore without an external antenna. Paul — "The opinions expressed in the article are the opinions of the author, not of Ford Motor Company. " – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

I go out about 20 miles off Boston Harbor sometimes in my 19 foot boat, but only when there is flat water and a stable high presure area in place with little chance of bad weather kicking up. I keep my vhf on and monitor the weather channel and radio stations for any surprize weather. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

About six weeks ago I was fishing out of Ft. Lauderdale.  We ended up a bit over 20 miles out before we gave up on fishing and decided to go to Bimini (Bahamas).  I found it on my GPSmap 76 and off we went.  It was 58 miles from port to port and we made the trip back in just over two hours.  The amazing part is that we burned only 28 gallons of gas on this 116 mile round trip with at least a hour of trolling included.  We were in my 20′ center console with a 115 four stroke. It’s all a matter of sea conditions and the weather.  This was an incredibly flat day with clear skies.  We were prepared to leave the boat in Bimini and fly back as a last resort if the weather went to hell on us.  This was one of those stupid "so I can say I was there" trips. Typically I will go out only 15 – 20 miles.  At that point there are still plenty of other boats in the area and usually cell phone coverage if the VHF craps out. Are you sure you only have a 30 gallon fuel tank?  That would be my #1 concern.  The handheld VHF would be right there at #2. Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

30 gallons sounds awfully small for a 20 ft. boat.  I’ve got a 26′ powercat with twin 150’s and 180 gallons of fuel and I am always a little nervous (rightly so) about going off more than 20 miles.  A handheld VHF will NOT cut it, as Dan mentioned, nor the 30 gallon fuel tank.  You just can’t trust the weather service with forcasts.  They might say that the winds will pick up in 24 hours, but all of the sudden, you are in 20 kt winds.  Then you are in real trouble.  Usually I burn about 65 gal on a normal 12 hour trolling trip, but once, when the weather turn on me prematurely, it took about 130 gal to get home in terribly steep head seas. In general, I wouldn’t recommend it.  I’m usually the smallest boat out in the deep and I definitely feel it when the weather turns.  There are way too many things that go wrong. BTW, you didn’t mention an EPIRB in your list… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

Question:

Hi RW,  you were mentioning the PT nymph and what it looked like.  I have a rather poor photo (somewhat out of focus)  that depicts the nymph, and I have put it on ABPF.

That’s a very buggy looking fly, Michael. Do you ever tie them flashback style, with a strand of Flashabou and some 5-minute epoxy? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Hi RW,  you were mentioning the PT nymph and what it looked like.  I have a rather poor photo (somewhat out of focus)  that depicts the nymph, and I have put it on ABPF. That’s a very buggy looking fly, Michael. Do you ever tie them flashback style, with a strand of Flashabou and some 5-minute epoxy?

Yikes,  what is "flashback style"?  The fly in the pikkie is my mainstay of angling operations, and it fishes very effectively here in the UK and the river Cauvery  (Bangalore to Mysore plus tributaries)  in India  (much to my delight!!!)  This pattern is probably my most used fly.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi RW,  you were mentioning the PT nymph and what it looked like.  I have a rather poor photo (somewhat out of focus)  that depicts the nymph, and I have put it on ABPF. That’s a very buggy looking fly, Michael. Do you ever tie them flashback style, with a strand of Flashabou and some 5-minute epoxy? Yikes,  what is "flashback style"?  

Tie in a strand of pearl Flashabou before you tie in the wingcase. Then fold it over and tie it in over the finished wingcase. A drop of 5-minute epoxy on top of the thorax makes the fly more durable, which I believe is what you were after in the first place. The fly in the pikkie is my mainstay of angling operations, and it fishes very effectively here in the UK and the river Cauvery  (Bangalore to Mysore plus tributaries)  in India  (much to my delight!!!)  This pattern is probably my most used fly.

Now you’re getting all picky about making changes to your recipe! That was my advice, if you recall — if it works, stick with it. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Do you ever tie them flashback style, with a strand of Flashabou and some 5-minute epoxy?

One thing I like to do is use peackock herl for the wingcase.  I pull over that several strands of very narrow Flashabou.  I think this is more subtle, yet at the same time reflects light in more directions.  Then I coat it with Flexament.  I think it looks cool.

Response:

Snipped. Today I fished with some PT nymphs that I had used a little dab of superglue to keep the wingcase firmly fastened down.  They did not look any different to the non glued ones,  but after a day’s angling with them I have to say that the addition of the glue has done wonders for the durability of the fly.  Today was very windy and at times too much for my 4 weight line.  One cast was blown onto the riverbank  (grrrr!), however, a bit of bad temper and cursing at the wind,  I persisted my casting. I found a nice run that has been deepened by the recent record flooding, and its trout have all been replaced by large grayling.  I caught 3 grayling between 1.25lb and 2lb in 40 feet of stream, and saw a lot more fish too ~ I have never seen so many large grayling on this river before.  Oddly enough, the grayling were not at all interested in the PT nymph, and I caught them on a  small black & peacock spider (size 16).  All the trout that I caught today (upto a lively 15oz fish) were on the PT nymph.  I only fished for half the day due to 1) the wind, and 2) nagging by the wife… Within a few weeks,  the mayflies (we call the largest of our ephemerids the mayfly  (Ephemera danica) as it hatches in late May.  The troutstream goes absolutely nuts for 2 weeks and the trout all gorge themselves something chronic).  That being said,  the fish were feasting well today, and the trout all had plump bellies.

Response:

There is a picture of a PTN with a fluo thorax at http://www.geocities.com/flyfishingguru/ptn.htm along with tying instructions etc if any of you are interested Chris http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flyfishingworld – E-mail group http://www.geocities.com/flyfishingguru – Main website

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Snipped. Today I fished with some PT nymphs that I had used a little dab of superglue to keep the wingcase firmly fastened down.  They did not look any different to the non glued ones,  but after a day’s angling with them I have to say that the addition of the glue has done wonders for the durability of the fly.  Today was very windy and at times too much for my 4 weight line. One cast was blown onto the riverbank  (grrrr!), however, a bit of bad temper and cursing at the wind,  I persisted my casting. I found a nice run that has been deepened by the recent record flooding, and its trout have all been replaced by large grayling.  I caught 3 grayling between 1.25lb and 2lb in 40 feet of stream, and saw a lot more fish too ~ I have never seen so many large grayling on this river before.  Oddly enough, the grayling were not at all interested in the PT nymph, and I caught them on a  small black & peacock spider (size 16).  All the trout that I caught today (upto a lively 15oz fish) were on the PT nymph.  I only fished for half the day due to 1) the wind, and 2) nagging by the wife… Within a few weeks,  the mayflies (we call the largest of our ephemerids the mayfly  (Ephemera danica) as it hatches in late May.  The troutstream goes absolutely nuts for 2 weeks and the trout all gorge themselves something chronic).  That being said,  the fish were feasting well today, and the trout all had plump bellies.

Response:

Cheers Chris, I looked at the fly,  however, I must admit to being a bit of a traditional kindof flytier.  I am presently only using non-synthetic materials to tie my flies from;  I prefer furs, feathers & metals.   That being said, today I used some flies (PTN) that used glue as a reinforcement to the tying, so I suppose that I am a bit of a hypocrite in respect to non-synthetic materials – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a picture of a PTN with a fluo thorax at http://www.geocities.com/flyfishingguru/ptn.htm along with tying instructions etc if any of you are interested Chris http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flyfishingworld – E-mail group http://www.geocities.com/flyfishingguru – Main website Snipped. Today I fished with some PT nymphs that I had used a little dab of superglue to keep the wingcase firmly fastened down.  They did not look any different to the non glued ones,  but after a day’s angling with them I have to say that the addition of the glue has done wonders for the durability of the fly.  Today was very windy and at times too much for my 4 weight line. One cast was blown onto the riverbank  (grrrr!), however, a bit of bad temper and cursing at the wind,  I persisted my casting. I found a nice run that has been deepened by the recent record flooding, and its trout have all been replaced by large grayling.  I caught 3 grayling between 1.25lb and 2lb in 40 feet of stream, and saw a lot more fish too ~ I have never seen so many large grayling on this river before.  Oddly enough, the grayling were not at all interested in the PT nymph, and I caught them on a  small black & peacock spider (size 16).  All the trout that I caught today (upto a lively 15oz fish) were on the PT nymph.  I only fished for half the day due to 1) the wind, and 2) nagging by the wife… Within a few weeks,  the mayflies (we call the largest of our ephemerids the mayfly  (Ephemera danica) as it hatches in late May.  The troutstream goes absolutely nuts for 2 weeks and the trout all gorge themselves something chronic).  That being said,  the fish were feasting well today, and the trout all had plump bellies.

Response:

Cheers Chris, I looked at the fly,  however, I must admit to being a bit of a traditional kindof flytier.  I am presently only using non-synthetic materials to tie my flies from;  I prefer furs, feathers & metals.  

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and preferences, but I don’t understand the big difference between using manufactured materials like steel hooks and nylon thread, and "synthetic" materials like Flashabou and poly yarn. If it’s effective for tying flies I’ll use it. It may be unethical , but that’s the way I see it. In fact, I think it’s fun to use all sorts of unusual synthetic materials, especially those that aren’t made specifically for tying flies. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Planned to stop in McIntosh county Oklahoma and do a little family research on way to Henry"s Fork clave. My creek ancestor there suggested I bring my fishing pole–said it gets so hot there in July that when you catch a brim you just eat him off the fly! IJ

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cheers Chris, I looked at the fly,  however, I must admit to being a bit of a traditional kindof flytier.  I am presently only using non-synthetic materials to tie my flies from;  I prefer furs, feathers & metals. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and preferences, but I don’t understand the big difference between using manufactured materials like steel hooks and nylon thread, and "synthetic" materials like Flashabou and poly yarn. If it’s effective for tying flies I’ll use it. It may be unethical , but that’s the way I see it. In fact, I think it’s fun to use all sorts of unusual synthetic materials, especially those that aren’t made specifically for tying flies.

What you say is entirely true, and people should experiment with new materials and so on if they want to improve designs.  I am not a particularly innovative fly tyer; I have about a dozen mature patterns consisting of dry, wet & nymph (for troutstream fishing) that I more or less stick to.  I am also essentially lazy in nature, and because of this try to utilise just the minimum required  (another reason why I use PT & GRHE nymphs for the bulk of my angling).  Being lazy with fly tying means that I don’t really go out to get new materials; I have a big wooden box (that I inherited when its previous owner emigrated to Australia) that is crammed with all sorts of bits of fur / hair / capes / birdskins / loose feathers / wires / tinsels and so on.  I am more of an angler than a fly tyer, however that being said, I do tie up all of my flies that I use.  I probably need a new tying vice as mine (Indian cheapo) is getting to be a nuisance ~ I suppose that you get what you pay for. This season I have decided to get back into fishing the dry fly; over the last 7 years or so I have neglected to use the dryfly.  The last 2 trips (yesterday & a week before) I caught trout on a size 16 iron blue dun and really enjoyed the thrill of watching the fly bob down to where the fish was on the fin. I’m not at all bothered about what other people want to use,  but I personally prefer to use feather or fur over synthetic materials purely on a set-in-my-ways traditional kindof theme.  It is  ironic that I am probably younger than the average age of the participants in this NG and yet I am possibly more dogmatic in choice of fly tying materials than the average pundit! Regards, Mike.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What you say is entirely true, and people should experiment with new materials and so on if they want to improve designs.  I am not a particularly innovative fly tyer; I have about a dozen mature patterns consisting of dry, wet & nymph (for troutstream fishing) that I more or less stick to.  I am also essentially lazy in nature, and because of this try to utilise just the minimum required  (another reason why I use PT & GRHE nymphs for the bulk of my angling).   I am more of an angler than a fly tyer, however that being said, I do tie up all of my flies that I use.   I’m not at all bothered about what other people want to use,  but I personally prefer to use feather or fur over synthetic materials purely on a set-in-my-ways traditional kindof theme.  It is  ironic that I am probably younger than the average age of the participants in this NG and yet I am possibly more dogmatic in choice of fly tying materials than the average pundit!

Hum, I pictured you as a moderately old fart like me. I also prefer "natural" over synthetic. I think that a limited fly selection is what happens when you fish the same waters, or similar ones, very frequently. You find or develop some flies that are successful for you, you use them alot, you get good at presenting them and you have alot of confidence in them. When I travel to new waters, I usually tie up "local" patterns to suit but often  find myself having my best success on my "standards." That’s one of the things that has made me concentrate much more on a change in presentation over trying to find the "right" fly when I come across a difficult situation. Willi

Response:

What you say is entirely true, and people should experiment with new materials and so on if they want to improve designs.  I am not a particularly innovative fly tyer; I have about a dozen mature patterns consisting of dry, wet & nymph (for troutstream fishing) that I more or less stick to.  I am also essentially lazy in nature, and because of this try to utilise just the minimum required  (another reason why I use PT & GRHE nymphs for the bulk of my angling).   I am more of an angler than a fly

tyer, however that being said, I do tie up all of my flies that I use. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not at all bothered about what other people want to use,  but I personally prefer to use feather or fur over synthetic materials purely on a set-in-my-ways traditional kindof theme.  It is  ironic that I am probably younger than the average age of the participants in this NG and yet I am possibly more dogmatic in choice of fly tying materials than the average pundit! Hum, I pictured you as a moderately old fart like me. I also prefer "natural" over synthetic. I think that a limited fly selection is what happens when you fish the same waters, or similar ones, very frequently. You find or develop some flies that are successful for you, you use them alot, you get good at presenting them and you have alot of confidence in them. When I travel to new waters, I usually tie up "local" patterns to suit but often  find myself having my best success on my "standards." That’s one of the things that has made me concentrate much more on a change in presentation over trying to find the "right" fly when I come across a difficult situation.

LOL,  I am a 30 year old fart, moderate just like you .  You are right about the firm fave flies that you carry with confidence,  I have my favourite flies alright:  my 1st 11 or 1st 15, these flies are my first choice in action on most waters (saltwaters excluded).  Confidence is pretty important in flyfishing and having a proven fly or series of flies helps maintain the keeness that is essentially kept bouyant by prior confidence.

Response:

Hum, I pictured you as a moderately old fart like me. LOL,  I am a 30 year old fart, moderate just like you .

I don’t think that’s the same thing that Willi described

Response:

Confidence is pretty important in flyfishing and having a proven fly or series of flies helps maintain the keeness that is essentially kept bouyant by prior confidence.

I suspect that the "confidence" effect has something to do with the effectiveness of fluorocarbon tippet. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Hi RW,  you were mentioning the PT nymph and what it looked like.  I have a rather poor photo (somewhat out of focus)  that depicts the nymph, and I have put it on ABPF.

Response:

Question:

This is one of the very few Orvis products that I used with satisfaction in the past.  Since it left the market I haven’t been able to find a good liquid floatant that worked as well (not that I’ve tried too hard).  I can’t remember the reason it was taken off the market, and whether there was a good homemade concoction to replace it (seem to me I heard of something, but it escapes me). I know I’m at risk of opening up some stupid thread-war about Gink, and the like, but looking for a liquid floatant (not a spray either).  Orvis has some new stuff out that your suppose to treat the fly with ahead of time, but really looking for something affordable (I think it was $5 for a half oz) and something I can use "on the fly" (sorry). The Finn

Response:

From the price you quote you’re from the US or Canad (it would be twice as much in downunder dollars).  Therefore you should be able to avail yourself of the opprtunity to try Albolene (scent free) – a hand cream and lubricant with …errr… a myriad of uses.  Many here (roff) use said hand cream for floatant.  This is second hand info though never tried it myself. fingers crossed, Steve

Response:

Ohhhhhhhhh nooooooooo,  not the albolene threads again…. Steve – thanks for the info but looking for a liquid cure,  I think the albolene is ginkish…..or gel, in it’s form. Anyone else??

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the price you quote you’re from the US or Canad (it would be twice as much in downunder dollars).  Therefore you should be able to avail yourself of the opprtunity to try Albolene (scent free) – a hand cream and lubricant with …errr… a myriad of uses.  Many here (roff) use said hand cream for floatant.  This is second hand info though never tried it myself. fingers crossed, Steve

Response:

Ohhhhhhhhh nooooooooo,  not the albolene threads again…. Steve – thanks for the info but looking for a liquid cure,  I think the albolene is ginkish…..or gel, in it’s form. Anyone else??

Er, OK, now I’m curious: why does it have to be "liquid form?"  If you simply don’t want a "gel," try Frog’s Fanny, or if you want "homemade," silica (desiccant) dust.  If you MUST have a liquid, get any of the myriad of products out there that come in liquid form. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From the price you quote you’re from the US or Canad (it would be twice as much in downunder dollars).  Therefore you should be able to avail yourself of the opprtunity to try Albolene (scent free) – a hand cream and lubricant with …errr… a myriad of uses.  Many here (roff) use said hand cream for floatant.  This is second hand info though never tried it myself. fingers crossed, Steve

Response:

Ohhhhhhhhh nooooooooo,  not the albolene threads again…. Steve – thanks for the info but looking for a liquid cure,  I think the albolene is ginkish…..or gel, in it’s form.

  Ah, sorry ’bout that.   Steve

Response:

You didn’t stick around long enough.      We left at 2:30 on Sunday.  What was Skinner doing so far from home? Lost?      Nah, just the usual stuff, like eating my groceries and drinking my booze.

  And damn good booze and food it was!  Even better than the other 20 times I sponged off you. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

How was the show?

  I thought it was a great show.  A little bigger this year which made it less crowded.  The crowd was thinner on Sunday.  My favorite part is the "Destination Theaters".  I saw some slides of some really neat country in CO and MT.  Nothing about Wyoming, though.  You know—not much to say about the fishing in this lousy state.   The only downside was having to follow Wilson around the booths with a mop. All that drooling— Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Rusty Hook says: I like Loon Hydrostop. It’s a pretreatment, and is a thin liquid. Dunk the flies in it and let them dry overnight…. This just in… Got a new product at a fly fishing expo last Sunday that’s supposed to be even better than hydrostop. The name escapes me at the moment; Gorilla Proof or something like that. I’ll give a full report after the thaw.

How was the show? Willi

Response:

You didn’t stick around long enough.

     We left at 2:30 on Sunday.  What was Skinner doing so far from home? Lost?

     Nah, just the usual stuff, like eating my groceries and drinking my booze.

Response:

Rusty Hook says: I like Loon Hydrostop. It’s a pretreatment, and is a thin liquid. Dunk the flies in it and let them dry overnight…. This just in… Got a new product at a fly fishing expo last Sunday that’s supposed to be even better than hydrostop. The name escapes me at the moment; Gorilla Proof or something like that. I’ll give a full report after the thaw.

How was the show. Willi

Response:

Rusty Hook says: I like Loon Hydrostop. It’s a pretreatment, and is a thin liquid. Dunk the flies in it and let them dry overnight….

This just in… Got a new product at a fly fishing expo last Sunday that’s supposed to be even better than hydrostop. The name escapes me at the moment; Gorilla Proof or something like that. I’ll give a full report after the thaw. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

Got a new product at a fly fishing expo last Sunday that’s supposed to be even better than hydrostop.

   Hey, you weren’t at the show! You said you’d be easy to spot because you’d be wearing a plaid shirt and baseball cap, and there wasn’t anybody there dressed like that (except me and Skinner).

Response:

Charlie Wilson protests:    Hey, you weren’t at the show! You said you’d be easy to spot because you’d be wearing a plaid shirt and baseball cap, and there wasn’t anybody there dressed like that (except me and Skinner).

You didn’t stick around long enough. I finally showed up on Sunday afternoon, complete with flannel cap and baseball shirt, or something similar.  What was Skinner doing so far from home? Lost? — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

Just prefer to dunk and run,  less mess and waste.  I’ve tried some of the others, and they sucked,  just looking for some suggestions,…

I like Loon Hydrostop. It’s a pretreatment, and is a thin liquid. Dunk the flies in it and let them dry overnight. My dries go straight from the vise (or the raffle) into the hydrostop, then into the storage box after they dry. About the only thing that defeats the stuff is fish slime, and a quick shake in dry floatant crystals will take care of that. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

Still available here in Australia – I purchased a spraycan only about a week before Christmas.  

It’s off the market in the US, something about cancer risk. I’ll keep an eye out for it the next time I’m out of the country and bring some back. Useful stuff. — Charlie…

Response:

Have you tried ScotchGuard?   That was taken off the market too.

Still available here in Australia – I purchased a spraycan only about a week before Christmas.  However, apparently there is some new "Super ScotchGuard" on the horizon or already out there, but I haven’t come across it yet. — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

Response:

says… Ohhhhhhhhh nooooooooo,  not the albolene threads again…. Steve – thanks for the info but looking for a liquid cure,  I think the albolene is ginkish…..or gel, in it’s form. Anyone else??

Have you tried ScotchGuard?  Spray (yeah – I know) on the flies when they are tied or before the trip.  They float like crazy. — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

Response:

Have you tried ScotchGuard?  

That was taken off the market too. — Charlie…

Response:

Er, OK, now I’m curious: why does it have to be "liquid form?"  If you simply don’t want a "gel," try Frog’s Fanny, or if you want "homemade," silica (desiccant) dust.  If you MUST have a liquid, get any of the myriad of products out there that come in liquid form.

Just prefer to dunk and run,  less mess and waste.  I’ve tried some of the others, and they sucked,  just looking for some suggestions,

Response:

I just use Gink. Whatever you think about the man the stuff works fine for me. Don’t try to get me into an argument or anything.  The guy asked a question, I answered it.  Imagine that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is one of the very few Orvis products that I used with satisfaction in the past.  Since it left the market I haven’t been able to find a good liquid floatant that worked as well (not that I’ve tried too hard).  I can’t remember the reason it was taken off the market, and whether there was a good homemade concoction to replace it (seem to me I heard of something, but it escapes me). I know I’m at risk of opening up some stupid thread-war about Gink, and the like, but looking for a liquid floatant (not a spray either).  Orvis has some new stuff out that your suppose to treat the fly with ahead of time, but really looking for something affordable (I think it was $5 for a half oz) and something I can use "on the fly" (sorry). The Finn

Response:

Question:

Hi, I need some help by experienced fly fishers and I think this is the right place. I live in the eastern italian Alps and am looking for a good way to catch the european whitefish, as they say it swims somewhere here. The matter is: I don’t simply know how to catch it. I thought "why not a fly?", yeah, but which fly? Then I am running into fantasy. I’m sure someone out there has experience on the matter. Thanks in advance, Bepo

Response:

Bepo I need some help by experienced fly fishers and I think this is Bepo the right place. I live in the eastern italian Alps and am Bepo looking for a good way to catch the european whitefish, as they Bepo say it swims somewhere here. The matter is: I don’t simply know Bepo how to catch it. I thought "why not a fly?", yeah, but which Bepo fly? Then I am running into fantasy. I’m sure someone out there Bepo has experience on the matter. I’m no expert (well that’s a start for an advice ), but the Swedish fly Superpuppan was originally developed for whitefish fishing, although not in your waters. You might still want to check it out and try it in your local caddis colors: http://www.virtualflybox.com/f0100/f0173.html Note that the hackle is cut off from over and below the hook shank. Also, use a high-quality hackle so that the fly hangs in the surface. — Jarmo Hurri address or apply rot13 to header email address.

Response:

Hi, I need some help by experienced fly fishers and I think this is the right place. I live in the eastern italian Alps and am looking for a good way to catch the european whitefish, as they say it swims somewhere here. The matter is: I don’t simply know how to catch it. I thought "why not a fly?", yeah, but which fly? Then I am running into fantasy. I’m sure someone out there has experience on the matter. Thanks in advance, Bepo

I have twice fished for this fish ( Coregonus laveratus), in some large German lakes.  On both occasions, I was with an experienced local fisherman in a boat and equipment known as a "hegene" was used.  This is basically a special paternoster system for jigging, using ( five) nymphs as droppers. Mostly it is used by professional fishermen. The only information I can offer you is in German.  Here is a picture of the equipment used; http://www.hegenenfischen.de/Hegene/Bild_Hegene/bild_hegene.html Normally a very sensitive fly rod is used, and a centrepin reel.  Here are some pictures; http://www.angelprofi.at/Die%20Renke.htm#Die%20Hegene Renke ( whitefish) are considered a great delicacy, especially smoked, but are more or less useless as sport fish.  I assume you wish to catch them to eat? It is also apparently possible to catch them using "normal" jigging equipment and small slim jigs.  In many places they are also fished for using natural bait ( mainly minnows) also usually on paternoster systems. TL MC

Response:

"Mike" shared a nice experience fishing for Whitefish. I have twice fished for this fish (Coregonus laveratus), in some large German lakes. <Snipped, great information Up here in the Pacific Northwest we have The mountain whitefish (Prosopium williamsoni) and on at least two trout rivers, the Deschutes and the Crooked River in Oregon, whitefish have considerably larger populations than trout.  The population estimate for the mainstream Deschutes River is 5,000 whitefish per mile. Since I release just about everything I catch these days, I think they are a nice addition to most of the fisheries around here.  They seem to take the same patterns as the trout and I have heard of some patterns tied just for the whitefish, although I have never seen one and I can’t seem to find one on the web today. Chris Fanning

Response:

 Up here in the Pacific Northwest we have The mountain whitefish (Prosopium williamsoni) and on at least two trout rivers, the Deschutes and the Crooked River in Oregon, whitefish have considerably larger populations than trout.  The population estimate for the mainstream Deschutes River is 5,000 whitefish per mile. Since I release just about everything I catch these days, I think they are a nice addition to most of the fisheries around here.  They seem to take the same patterns as the trout and I have heard of some patterns tied just for the whitefish, although I have never seen one and I can’t seem to find one on the web today.

I think they’re fun to catch. JeffC has a well deserved reputation as ROFF’s Whitefish expert. RW has a couple of Whitefish patterns. Personally I’m glad that Whitefish seem to be starting to get a better reputation as a game fish. Although some anglers will still throw them in the bushes, this is much less common. Last Fall on the ranch section of Henry’s Fork, the Whitefish would feed right next to the trout. I caught a couple very large Whitefish on dries. On the Madison, Warren and myself found what must of been close to a hundred Whitefish feeding on Trico’s in the outside curve of a section of rapids. Willi

Response:

On the Deschutes below Warm Springs we caught many whitefish while nymphing for rainbows. The Gold Ribbed Hare’s Ear (# 12 medium weighted) was my fly of choice when the trout weren’t rising. It seems when we caught one "snooter" in a riffle, we would catch several more in the same spot. They seemed to congregate together. My guess…. And, on the Weber river in Utah 25 or 30 years ago (good trout river), I witnessed a fishermen taking whitefish on a small ( # 14 or smaller) very light colored cream nymph. He was using a spinning rod combo and fishing a school (sp?) of whitefish. Guy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Up here in the Pacific Northwest we have The mountain whitefish (Prosopium williamsoni) and on at least two trout rivers, the Deschutes and the Crooked River in Oregon, whitefish have considerably larger populations than trout.  The population estimate for the mainstream Deschutes River is 5,000 whitefish per mile. Since I release just about everything I catch these days, I think they are a nice addition to most of the fisheries around here.  They seem to take the same patterns as the trout and I have heard of some patterns tied just for the whitefish, although I have never seen one and I can’t seem to find one on the web today. I think they’re fun to catch. JeffC has a well deserved reputation as ROFF’s Whitefish expert. RW has a couple of Whitefish patterns. Personally I’m glad that Whitefish seem to be starting to get a better reputation as a game fish. Although some anglers will still throw them in the bushes, this is much less common. Last Fall on the ranch section of Henry’s Fork, the Whitefish would feed right next to the trout. I caught a couple very large Whitefish on dries. On the Madison, Warren and myself found what must of been close to a hundred Whitefish feeding on Trico’s in the outside curve of a section of rapids. Willi

Response:

The European whitefish and the mountain whitefish of the North American west are in different genera, so parallels drawn or assumed to exist between them (in the absence of first-hand experience) are suspect in my book. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Last Fall on the ranch section of Henry’s Fork, the Whitefish would feed right next to the trout. I caught a couple very large Whitefish on dries. On the Madison, Warren and myself found what must of been close to a hundred Whitefish feeding on Trico’s in the outside curve of a section of rapids.

I caught all mine on nymphs – none on dries.  At first I just assumed it was because of how the whitefish mouth is shaped and angled, but you and others have caught them on dries, so obviously they’re able to take flies off the surface.

Response:

I think they’re fun to catch. JeffC has a well deserved reputation as ROFF’s Whitefish expert. RW has a couple of Whitefish patterns.

Chamois nymphs work great, if you don’t mind approaching dangerously close to baitfishing. Copper Johns are also deadly, but they’re unethical, too. Galvanic action. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

On the Deschutes below Warm Springs we caught many whitefish while nymphing for rainbows. The Gold Ribbed Hare’s Ear (# 12 medium weighted) was my fly of choice when the trout weren’t rising. It seems when we caught one "snooter" in a riffle, we would catch several more in the same spot. They seemed to congregate together. My guess…. ……

On the very upper Deschutes (above Crane Prairie) the rainbows seem to segregate themselves.  Most runs, pools and riffles you know will contain only rainbows.  Brookies and whitefish, however, tend to share pools. There are a number of deep brook trout holes from which I’ll pull three or four whitefish for each brookie.  I used to think of the whitefish as a sort of admission fee–something you just had to go through, to get past, in order to hook a trout.  In latter years, I’ve come to enjoy catching them as much as the brookies, especially since, on average, they’re a good deal larger.  Powerful fighters, too, and when smoked, fine eating. JR

Response:

http://www.virtualflybox.com/f0100/f0173.html

Ok thanks, more or less I have an idea, an emerging caddis can work. I am going to find out which caddises dwell in the place, so that I can choose the best colours. I was thinking also to a pond olive, they live in that lake and probably whitefish eats it. Bepo

Response:

I have twice fished for this fish ( Coregonus laveratus)

C. lavaretus is the species italians introduced in their lakes during the XIX century. The only information I can offer you is in German.

In two weeks with a dictionary I can read nearly everything (nearly). I assume you wish to catch them to eat?

I will try to catch it to find out if I am able to do it, I don’t like to eat freshwater fish, they are few in number, overfished and not so good at taste, it’s better to let ‘em live. Except for invasive alloctonous species, like rainbow trout and brown trout. Bepo

Response:

The European whitefish and the mountain whitefish of the North American west are in different genera, so parallels drawn or assumed to exist between them (in the absence of first-hand experience) are suspect in my

book. addition, none of them belong to the same genera as the mountain whitefish, bluegills, red eared sunfish, smallmouth bass, rock bass, or black crappie. I have caught all of the above (as well as many others) on elk hair caddis, pt nymphs, pass lakes, grhe, pickett pins, wooly buggers, ants, and hoppers (as well as many others).  Parallels drawn or assumed to exist between them are safe enough in MY book. Wolfgang

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RW wrote "Copper Johns are also deadly, but they’re unethical, too. Galvanic action. " — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ Damn! and I just tied up 2 dozen of them!  I wish you would tell me what flies were unethical before I tie them up I suppose –  to be pure and all – If it catches fish, its probably unethical as a general rule. jh

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Damn! and I just tied up 2 dozen of them!  I wish you would tell me what flies were unethical before I tie them up

If you use anything other than your snout or paws, it’s unethical. <g — Charlie…

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Personally I’m glad that Whitefish seem to be starting to get a better reputation as a game fish. Although some anglers will still throw them in the bushes, this is much less common.

I spent a few days floating the Big Horn with a local guide who grew up on the reservation there.  He sure knew his river, and boy could he handle that boat with authority.   Occasionally I’d hookup with a WFish and the guide seem to get extremely upset about it, I mean really mad.  I’ll never forget him taking those large suckers and huckin’ ‘em as far as he could onto the nearest bank, into the bushes.  He’d call them trash fish and pontificate how they were a disgrace to the fishery…. To this day, I still feel bad about that.  It just didn’t set well with me at all. K

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<SNIP Occasionally I’d hookup with a WFish and the guide seem to get extremely upset about it, I mean really mad.  I’ll never forget him taking those large suckers and huckin’ ‘em as far as he could onto the nearest bank, into the bushes.  He’d call them trash fish and pontificate how they were a disgrace to the fishery…. To this day, I still feel bad about that.  It just didn’t set well with me at all.

Years ago, literally tons of Grayling were caught from certain rivers, and thrown up on the bank. Lots of pike were also destroyed in this way.  There are still one or two stupid and short-sighted people who consider grayling a pest. Apart from that, something rather puzzles me.  If people catch and release, what does it matter what they catch and release? Or is it that there is some indefinable but somehow much greater kudos involved in catching certain salmonids? There are plenty of other fish which are just as challenging to catch, some a lot more so than trout etc. As a general rule, I keep sizeable takeable fish I catch, but I consider others as a bonus usually, ( even if I am obliged to release them), and not as pests. I just like catching fish, I am not overly fussy what type. Just curiosity, no wish to start a C&R debate. TL MC

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Years ago, literally tons of Grayling were caught from certain rivers, and thrown up on the bank. Lots of pike were also destroyed in this way. There are still one or two stupid and short-sighted people who consider grayling a pest.

I

Question:

I’m looking for a good paddling shoe with felt soles…so far, I’ve only found one shoe from the NRS, but I don’t like the style or color.  Any other suggestions? Also, I have a pair of Akona Racers that I love dearly (because they fit inside my RPM), but the sole is pretty slick on rocks…I’ve thought about getting one of those do-it-yourself felt sole kits that they sell for wading boots.  Any one with experience with that?

Check out the Chota zip-up with optional felt sole. A much nicer shoe than NRS and I think it’s less expensive. Cascade Outfitters carries them, had some on sale last month for $32.95. Ben

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The Escalante from Adias has a felt and rubber sole.  You can also check wading boots for fly fishing, I got a pair from Cabella’s that I really like.  Also, most fly fishing shops sell replacement soles that you can glue to whatever shoes or sandals you want.  I glued felt to a pair of Alps that the soles were extremely wore, work wonderful. SYOTR John Sims – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking for a good paddling shoe with felt soles…so far, I’ve only found one shoe from the NRS, but I don’t like the style or color.  Any other suggestions? Also, I have a pair of Akona Racers that I love dearly (because they fit inside my RPM), but the sole is pretty slick on rocks…I’ve thought about getting one of those do-it-yourself felt sole kits that they sell for wading boots.  Any one with experience with that?

Response:

I’m looking for a good paddling shoe with felt soles…so far, I’ve only found one shoe from the NRS, but I don’t like the style or color.  Any other suggestions? Also, I have a pair of Akona Racers that I love dearly (because they fit inside my RPM), but the sole is pretty slick on rocks…I’ve thought about getting one of those do-it-yourself felt sole kits that they sell for wading boots.  Any one with experience with that?

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Question:

What the general consensus on fly floating.  Who makes the best, what’s the best home made mixture and how long (number of casts/minutes) should it last?

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I have always liked Gink.  When it hits the cold water, it thickens up and tends to stay on.  I fish streams quite a bit and it seems to stay on longer/better than most floatants. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What the general consensus on fly floating.  Who makes the best, what’s the best home made mixture and how long (number of casts/minutes) should it last?

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Dave, I heard Mr. G. made Xink to sink flies because some people put too much Gink on their fly and couldn’t keep them on the water. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<What the general consensus on fly floating.  Who makes the best, what’s the best home made mixture and how long (number of casts/minutes) should it last? I have started to use a desicant (drying crystals).  The Orvis brand seems to be the best.  After catching a fish, simply wash off the fly in the stream, put it in desicant, shake, false cast once or twice and you are back in business.  If I *must* use a floatant, it is Gink or Albolene (an unscented cleanser). You can buy a 12 oz jar of Albolene in a drug store and it will last you tens of years.  Don’t ever confuse Gink with Xink, however.  I did — Adam’s sunk like a stone!  ;0) Dave LaCourse

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Gink. Don’t mess round with anything else – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What the general consensus on fly floating.  Who makes the best, what’s the best home made mixture and how long (number of casts/minutes) should it last?

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What the general consensus on fly floating.  Who makes the best, what’s the best home made mixture and how long (number of casts/minutes) should it last?

At least one very significant mail-order fly fishing catelog and guide service repackages Albolene Face Cream as their house brand of floatant.  It works as well as anything, but if you buy it in the pharmacy it is about $2.99 for 8 ounces, instead of $4.99 for 1/4 ounce. There are really 4 different situations.  1) pretreatment for a newly minted fly.  2) streamside treatment for a fly ready to fish  3) streamside treatment for a wet fly. In situation 1 I like a silicon type penetrating fluid.  It takes too long to dry for streamside use, but does an excellent job of creating a long floating fly. Depending on the fly, at streamside I like either a paste type floatant for elkhair based flies (Elk Hair Caddis, Stimulators, etc…) where the delecacy of the fly is not easily compromised.  If the fly is easily smashed — hackles matted down — I like an aerosol like Osprey brand floatant. Finally, if a fly is drowned and you have to resuscitate it, one of the powder type treatments will work nicely. Depending on the water conditions and how many fish you catch, a well treated fly can keep floating well for a half hour of use.  If in doubt, dry it out.  If you are using the paste type treatment, wipe the extra off your fingers on the last 2 feet of your fly line.  This will help keep the line from dragging the fly underwater. Happy fishin!

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Gink. Hands down.

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<<What the general consensus on fly floating.  Who makes the best, what’s the best home made mixture and how long (number of casts/minutes) should it last? I have started to use a desicant (drying crystals).  The Orvis brand seems to be the best.  After catching a fish, simply wash off the fly in the stream, put it in desicant, shake, false cast once or twice and you are back in business.  If I *must* use a floatant, it is Gink or Albolene (an unscented cleanser). You can buy a 12 oz jar of Albolene in a drug store and it will last you tens of years.  Don’t ever confuse Gink with Xink, however.  I did — Adam’s sunk like a stone!  ;0) Dave LaCourse

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What the general consensus on fly floating.  Who makes the best,

"Gee"……what a question:-) — Bill

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What the general consensus on fly floating.  Who makes the best, what’s the best home made mixture and how long (number of casts/minutes) should it last?

There is no consensus because the best for natural materials (fur and feather fibre) is unlikely to be also the best for synthetics (e.g. polypropylene.)  If they can get the materials they want, many tyers use no floatant at all. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Question:

I am going to buy a new 20 ft pontoon.  The manufacturer sells it with either 25 or 40 hp motors.  I have already decided to opt for the 40 but don’t know which brand to get.  They sell Force, Mariner, or Honda.  I understand that the quality of the Honda is excellent but have no experience with that brand.  Any comments would be appreciated.  Also, any comments about "add-ons"–I’m going to use the  boat for cruising as well as fishing. Bill

Hi Bill, I am looking for a 30 to 40 HP myself. I think that I might get a Honda 4 cycle. They are more money, heavier, but are quieter and get better gas milage. My next choice would be a Yamaha 2 cycle. What do others think? Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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Go for the Honda.  Much better engine from reliability and maintenance point of view.  If the Honda is too much, then go with the Mariner.  Stay away from the Force.  It is a stripped down version made solely for the low end price market, which means it is also a low end motor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going to buy a new 20 ft pontoon.  The manufacturer sells it with either 25 or 40 hp motors.  I have already decided to opt for the 40 but don’t know which brand to get.  They sell Force, Mariner, or Honda.  I understand that the quality of the Honda is excellent but have no experience with that brand.  Any comments would be appreciated.  Also, any comments about "add-ons"–I’m going to use the  boat for cruising as well as fishing. Bill

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Get the Mariner. It is more dependable and has a better garintee. I baught a Mariner 3 years ago. I had a small problem with the coil and they gave me a brand new motor no questions asked.

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:I am going to buy a new 20 ft pontoon.  The manufacturer sells it with :either 25 or 40 hp motors.  I have already decided to opt for the 40 but :don’t know which brand to get.  They sell Force, Mariner, or Honda.  I :understand that the quality of the Honda is excellent but have no :experience with that brand.  Any comments would be appreciated.  Also, Hey Bill, I’m new to this group and your post caught my attention. I just got back from Florida where i rented a 20 foot pontoon with a 30 horse. It was pushing to get 15 to 18 mph ! I rented the same size boat last year with a 60 i believe and i was passing runabouts that were on plane !  If you ever need to  cover some real distance you might opt for bigger motor. If your just out scooting around small lake the smaller one will do but dont expect to get anywhere fast with that 25 Kevin

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I am going to buy a new 20 ft pontoon.  The manufacturer sells it with either 25 or 40 hp motors.  I have already decided to opt for the 40 but don’t know which brand to get.  They sell Force, Mariner, or Honda.  I understand that the quality of the Honda is excellent but have no experience with that brand.  Any comments would be appreciated.  Also, any comments about "add-ons"–I’m going to use the  boat for cruising as well as fishing. Bill

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Question:

Has anyone had any experience with the Loomis GL-3 series of rods?  I’m interested in their 9 foot, 9 or 10 wt.  I really can’t afford a GL-X or a Sage RPL-X, so I am considering the GL-3.  I plan to use the rod for salt-water surf fishing for stripers on Cape Cod and Plum Island.  I would like to use the Teeny TS-350 line for getting down deep and the Wulf SWT 10wt intermediate lines. I just want to make sure that the GL-3 can handle these lines without getting overloaded or even worse breaking the tip. Any thoughts? Thanks, don

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I bought a GL-3 9 foot 4 weight and am very happy with it. I cast it and a Sage discovery and the GL-3 put out far more line thatn the SAGE noodle. Be sure to practice some casts with the GL-3 in that heavier weight, but the 4 weight is a pleasure to fish with. Trey Monroe

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone had any experience with the Loomis GL-3 series of rods?  I’m interested in their 9 foot, 9 or 10 wt.  I really can’t afford a GL-X or a Sage RPL-X, so I am considering the GL-3.  I plan to use the rod for salt-water surf fishing for stripers on Cape Cod and Plum Island.  I would like to use the Teeny TS-350 line for getting down deep and the Wulf SWT 10wt intermediate lines. I just want to make sure that the GL-3 can handle these lines without getting overloaded or even worse breaking the tip. Any thoughts? Thanks, don Hi Don:

My son’s 3rd rod was a 8 1/2 foot GL3 for a 5 wt line.  That was a very good rod for the price.  In fact I borrowed it when I could.  More of a softer action rod and it loads far easier than the sage rods. I’m not in love with the ultra stiff rods so I do favor rods like the GL3.  Best advice–go into a fly shop and test cast it.  Or maybe some club or guide might have one you can borrow for a few hours.  I have given up buying gear straight out of catalogs or magazine ads. Best luck fishing!!!!

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Has anyone had any experience with the Loomis GL-3 series of rods?  I’m interested in their 9 foot, 9 or 10 wt.  I really can’t afford a GL-X or a Sage RPL-X, so I am considering the GL-3.  I plan to use the rod for salt-water surf fishing for stripers on Cape Cod and Plum Island.  I would like to use the Teeny TS-350 line for getting down deep and the Wulf SWT 10wt intermediate lines. I just want to make sure that the GL-3 can handle these lines without getting overloaded or even worse breaking the tip. Any thoughts? Thanks, don

I haven’t used a Loomis fly rod, but have extensively used Loomis casting rods in grades IM-6, IMX and GL-3.  I can say that the GL-3 rods are very strong and light.  They are, in my opinion, not very far behind the IMXs, if that.  I wouldn’t hesitate to try out the GL-3. — Hugh Scott                    Albuquerque, NM

Response:

Has anyone had any experience with the Loomis GL-3 series of rods?  I’m interested in their 9 foot, 9 or 10 wt.  I really can’t afford a GL-X or a Sage RPL-X, so I am considering the GL-3.  I plan to use the rod for salt-water surf fishing for stripers on Cape Cod and Plum Island.  I would like to use the Teeny TS-350 line for getting down deep and the Wulf SWT 10wt intermediate lines. I just want to make sure that the GL-3 can handle these lines without getting overloaded or even worse breaking the tip. Any thoughts? Thanks, don

The G.Loomis GL3 series competes with the Sage DS series. These rods are in the $200+ range and are great values. They come in 9′ #9 line and 9′ #10 line in both companies. I would try to cast them both. We sell more Sage because they are a little lower in price and have an unconditional lifetime warranty. G.Loomis is not offering the unconditional warranty yet. If you liked the action of the Loomis better it should not make much difference. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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The G.Loomis GL3 series competes with the Sage DS series. These rods are in the $200+ range and are great values. They come in 9′ #9 line and 9′ #10 line in both companies. I would try to cast them both. We sell more Sage because they are a little lower in price and have an unconditional lifetime warranty. G.Loomis is not offering the unconditional warranty yet. If you liked the action of the Loomis better it should not make much difference.

The Loomis competes with the Sage DS in price only. IMHO, the GL#, at least in trout sizes, is a far better rod than anything else in the price range.  I have cast the 9 weight, and it is a little slow for my liking, but still better than Reddington and others in the price range.  Just my $0.02.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone had any experience with the Loomis GL-3 series of rods?  I’m interested in their 9 foot, 9 or 10 wt.  I really can’t afford a GL-X or a Sage RPL-X, so I am considering the GL-3.  I plan to use the rod for salt-water surf fishing for stripers on Cape Cod and Plum Island.  I would like to use the Teeny TS-350 line for getting down deep and the Wulf SWT 10wt intermediate lines. I just want to make sure that the GL-3 can handle these lines without getting overloaded or even worse breaking the tip. Any thoughts? Thanks, don

I’ve been using the 9′9wt GL-3 for two seasons now and reach for it first more often than the Sage and Orvis rods I own. The GL-3 is lighter than anything you will try out and will load more quickly than most other comparable rods. I use mine for striped bass and bluefish angling in saltponds, backbays and estuaries. I prefer the Stiffer rods for open surf fishing, though, due to their greater ability to cope with headwinds often encountered in that environment. I’ve had two GL-3 rods break on me so far and G.Loomis replaced the rods no questions asked (they even accomodated a rush replacement to help me keep my place on a charter I’d scheduled not long after the rod had broken). I believe they DO honor an unconditional warranty on the GL-3, but you should ask your flyshop or call G.Loomis to confirm for yourself. The first one that broke suffered a fractured male ferrule as I attempted a power cast into a 15mph headwind (my fault) and the second was a snap of the upper section 18" from the tiptop guide as I landed a 20" striper (their fault). In all fareness, the blank could have had cracks from being hit with a 2/0 clouser during a poorly executed cast, but they didn’t give me the third degree; they just replaced the rod. I still think you should try out the rods and also take a look at the St.Croix rods. They also give you alot for the money and have a warrantee, but they tend to be heavier than the Loomis or Sage rods. Again, try for yourself. Dont forget to try the Kennedy Fisher!!! Good Luck,    Jose

Response:

Question:

We traditionally bait or lure cast for speckled trout along the marshy islands at the edge of the Chesapeake Bay.  Fishing is normally in 2-3 feet of water in very grassy areas. Bait and lure casting works — but why wouldn’t fly fishing work just as well(or better)?  I know that in Florida fishing for ’specs is done with ‘float rigs’.  That seems to me to be functionally the same presentation of bait to the fish as with fly fishing techniques. As the spring season approaches, I’d appreciate the benefit from your collective experience so that I can get ready…   Thanks, Herb

Response:

You better believe specks will take a fly.  My buddy Reed Guice and I catch them all the time on fly rods on the flats around the Chandeleur Islands in Louisiana.  The Chesapeake marshes are not that different.   We started out fishing them with nine weights, but over the years we’ve gone lighter and now prefer to use a seven or a six-weight, wind permitting. Use the same technique you probabably already use with casting gear.  Get a drift going over the flats and blind cast from a small boat.  The Mastery bonefish intermediate is a great line for this.  It works the fly just beneath the surface and keeps you feeling connected to the fly as you strip.  Floaters tend to get slack in them when a chop gets up.  A straight section of 6 or 8 lb tippet is all you need.  No bite tippet neccessary.   If I could only use one fly it would be a clouser deep minnow, tied on a #1 hook, lightly dressed, chartreuse bucktail over white.   Another good speck fly is the Cook’s critter, also chatreuse.   Cast in the direction you’re drifting, let it sink a bit and begin to strip.  When you feel a take, set the hook with a strip strike.  Don’t try to set the hook with the rod tip.  If the fish misses, you’ll just pull the fly out of the water.  Strip strike and you’ll have a second or third shot at them. On calm mornings when specks are hitting minnows on the surface, try a pencil popper (or a regular bass popper with rubber legs) fished on a floating line.  Specks will come up and bust poppers  just like bass. They jump too.  But don’t try to horse them, because they’ve got soft mouths. You don’t need a lot of backing for speckled trout.  But a speck of 20 inches or more is plenty of fun on a light flyrod. Good fishing, Skipjack

Response:

We fly fish for specs here on the Texas coast from March through December (depending on the weather) and there are three basic philosophies: 1)  Use a Clouser minnow to get down to trout in water more than two or three feet with a hard bottom. 2)  Use a deer hair like a slider or deceiving bendbackthat sinks slowly but won’t foul on grass 3)  Use a popping bug like a dahlberg diver in water that is shallow but has a grass bottom. I have pictures of a 23" speck, the largest I have taken on a fly rod, but the new Texas record was set about a month ago. It was 33 inches long and weighed more than 13 pounds. sorry to say that I didn’t catch that one. By the way, specs will usually make a short run on you, then pretty much try to burrow into the bottom.

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I also fly-fish for specks as well as redfish in Louisiana.  The best luck I’ve had catching them is in Spring/Summer when the specks move out to the mouths of the bayous (rivers/streams to the rest of you).  You fish on a falling tide and diagonally across the current and let it do the work for you.  Just strip enough to keep contact with the fly.  When they are active, this is more fun that a person is allowed to have! My buddy Reed Guice and I catch them all the time on fly rods on the flats around the Chandeleur Islands in Louisiana.  

I’ve never fly-fished the Chandeleur Is … guess I’ll have to bring the fly rod along on the next trip! David

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Question:

Looking for any information on fly fishing for trout in the Phoenix, Arizona area, radius 250 miles.  Streams, rivers, lakes, etc..

Response:

Sedona, is w/in your 250 miles, boasts art galleries, shops, and great fishing. There is a small stream, Oak Creek Canyon, that holds Browns and stocked Bows. Fish above slide rock for the browns.  Tan Caddis larva was working well this month.  The White Mountains, about 200 miles east of Phoenix has a wide variety of streams and lakes, almost all of which are full of browns, bows, brookies, and the native Apache golden trout. (602)902-0881.

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