Question:

Boring?  Check out the lampoon’s sequel, Bored of the Rings, fun at first, but a bit overworked. That’s a book from the 60’s or 70’s, not a movie. But, no, I didn’t find the book boring.  Like any movie based on a great book, it never meats your expectations, but this one was so much better than Dune that I couldn’t muster a complaint, and I will see the next two. Chas Does anyone else think that the new Lord of the Rings movie is boring, in spite of the outstanding care and expertise that went into it ?    

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Response:

Boring?  Check out the lampoon’s sequel, Bored of the Rings, fun at first, but a bit overworked. That’s a book from the 60’s or 70’s, not a movie. But, no, I didn’t find the book boring.  Like any movie based on a great book, it never meats your expectations, but this one was so much better than Dune that I couldn’t muster a complaint, and I will see the next two.

Your use of Dune as an example of how a movie can disappoint the book reader is a good one. But there are two versions of Dune out there. The first one is about 2.5 hours with rumors of enough material on the cutting room floor to a) fill in the gaps for those who had not read the book and b) double its length. Then there’s the later version which IS about 5 hours in length and is much truer to the character types & plot development of the book. I somewhat enjoyed the first, but had to keep whispering to my wife about who that sudden new character was, why the seemingly arbitrary shifts in plot elelments, etc. The  second is far better both as cimematography and as book adaptation – but it’s not up there with Casablanca, Schindler’s List or The Wizard of Oz. Likewise the current 1/3 of LOTR; it’s fairly good entertainment but on the long haul only so-so. Yours in the north Maine woods, Pete Hilton aka The Ent — Second-ratedness, unfailing law of: Never be the first to try anything.    anon.

Response:

It seemed to be more of a preteen movie. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Boring?  Check out the lampoon’s sequel, Bored of the Rings, fun at first, but a bit overworked. That’s a book from the 60’s or 70’s, not a movie. But, no, I didn’t find the book boring.  Like any movie based on a great book, it never meats your expectations, but this one was so much better than Dune that I couldn’t muster a complaint, and I will see the next two. Your use of Dune as an example of how a movie can disappoint the book reader is a good one. But there are two versions of Dune out there. The first one is about 2.5 hours with rumors of enough material on the cutting room floor to a) fill in the gaps for those who had not read the book and b) double its length. Then there’s the later version which IS about 5 hours in length and is much truer to the character types & plot development of the book. I somewhat enjoyed the first, but had to keep whispering to my wife about who that sudden new character was, why the seemingly arbitrary shifts in plot elelments, etc. The  second is far better both as cimematography and as book adaptation – but it’s not up there with Casablanca, Schindler’s List or The Wizard of Oz. Likewise the current 1/3 of LOTR; it’s fairly good entertainment but on the long haul only so-so. Yours in the north Maine woods, Pete Hilton aka The Ent — Second-ratedness, unfailing law of: Never be the first to try anything.    anon.

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Yup. Instead of parts of the book, it WAS one cliffhanger after another. After four or five they began to run out of dramatic soundtrack…..but I will give them credit for the old college try….better than seeing it butchered I guess.  They definitely put some thought into it. I’m out on the sequels…… john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Does anyone else think that the new Lord of the Rings  movie is boring, in spite of the outstanding care and  expertise that went into it ? Are you old enough to remember that great satire, Bored of the Rings? The books were so boring I never got past page 3 of the first one. I’ve heard that the movie is just one cliff hanger followed by another. Take heart, Greg. You won’t have to waste your money on the next two movies, which are already in the can. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Boring?  Check out the lampoon’s sequel, Bored of the Rings, fun at first, but a bit overworked. That’s a book from the 60’s or 70’s, not a movie. But, no, I didn’t find the book boring.  Like any movie based on a great book, it never meats your expectations, but this one was so much better than Dune that I couldn’t muster a complaint, and I will see the next two. Chas

I loved the Lord of the Rings movie. I have read the books many times and the movie did a pretty good job. The problem is that with such an epic book any movie nearly always ends up as a  series of vignettes that communicates the plot in the shortest way possible. This is at the expense of the ambience and magnificence of the book. Dune, the TV Series on SciFi, is much better than the Dune movie. Definitely captures the middle-easterness of the book and the effects are excellent. Gary

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Don’t get me started about the visual effects . . . granted I still have the taste of sour grapes still in my mouth [I worked on Pearl Harbor, and it beat us out for the Visual Effects Oscar]. My best description of the movie . . . fight, fight, run, close-up of Frodo crying, fight , run, close-up of Frodo crying, fight, fight, fight, close-up of Frodo crying, run, fight, fight [you get the idea]. The movie moves at a snails pace in my opinion.  After the last scene in the movie (where they are looking towards their ultimate goal), I turn to my wife and said . . . "It’s going to take them 2 more movies to get over there?". But, on a side note . . . If I was young and single . . . I wouldn’t think twice about heading down th N.Z. and working on the other 2 movies . . . that way I could fish on my one day off.  snicker snicker -Marshall – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yup. Instead of parts of the book, it WAS one cliffhanger after another. After four or five they began to run out of dramatic soundtrack….  Agreed.   I was trying to figure out how much of what  I was seeing was actual NZ vs computer generation  vs good old fashioned special effects.  Some of it  was quite obvious but much of it was quite difficult.

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Don’t get me started about the visual effects . . . granted I still have the taste of sour grapes still in my mouth [I worked on Pearl Harbor, and it beat us out for the Visual Effects Oscar].

I obviously don’t pay enough attention to the Oscars, but having seen both movies Pearl Harbor beat Rings hands down in the visual effects category IMHO.  Every time there was a group of people walking in front of matted scenery I kept thinking that they were purposely trying to make it look like a bad B-movie from the 50’s.      - Ken

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Yes, they have been "shot".  But they are in what is called "Post Production" now – Meaning the visual effects are being created as we speak.  I know this because several of my co-workers have taken the option to go down and work on the second and third movies.  The visual effects will not be completed for the second movie until at least November. This is a very labor and computing intensive business. I just finished working on Star Wars – Eposide II – Saturday, [they actually called me out of a flyfishing seminar with Mel Krieger at the Golden Gate park casting pools, to tweak a final shot ]. And this Star Wars movie has been "shot" for a few months now.  The next project I start in May, will not be completed until next June. Cheers, Marshall – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  The other two have already been made (tho I  assume that they will be tocuhed up/recut a  bit in response to critiques of the first one). But, on a side note . . . If I was young and single . . . I wouldn’t think twice about heading down th N.Z. and working on the other 2 movies . . . that way I could fish on my one day off.  snicker snicker

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I somewhat enjoyed the first, but had to keep whispering to my wife about who that sudden new character was, why the seemingly arbitrary shifts in plot elelments, etc. The  second is far better both as cimematography and as book adaptation – but it’s not up there with Casablanca, Schindler’s List or The Wizard of Oz.

I didn’t like the first at all but your assessment of the second is on the money, IMO. Especially considering that it was a made for TV movie, I thought it was well made. After my disappointment with the first movie, I almost didn’t watch the second. Willi

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 Does anyone else think that the new Lord of the Rings  movie is boring, in spite of the outstanding care and  expertise that went into it ?

My wife found it rather boring.  She felt it did deserve an Oscar nomination  however because obviously it was an example of grand moviemaking.  I found it entertaining.  But I’m a geek. Mu

Response:

Does anyone else think that the new Lord of the Rings movie is boring, in spite of the outstanding care and expertise that went into it ?    

I read the books passionately when a child, but haven’t for a long time. Went to the movie in dread, and utterly loved it. i thought it was terrific. LC — Lazarus Cooke

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OTOH, it was rather non-pc to exclude gay Tom Bombadil, don’t you think ?

I thought he was married?  But then …. Lc — Lazarus Cooke

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 Also, their problem domain scales nicely, so their test data can be much smaller inputs resulting in much smaller scenes, and if those go well the giga-pixel scenes probably will too, just with lot’s more computer time…

I’m copying this out, and learning it off by heart, so as to know what to say when people ask me what I thought of the movie. LC — Lazarus Cooke

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It may be that those who’ve written the engines have been careful about these issues, but even then my guess is that their "validation" consists of looking at the scene and deciding whether it looks good or not. (I suppose one might consider that to be the ultimate validation, anyways).

I also thought that the math libraries were a bit smarter in how they handled floating point calculations as well, such that a lot of the "fun" was buried to the point of not being considered by "modern" programmers…

Response:

 I assumed that there would be a lot of iterative  floating point calculations and that there would  be some concern about values wandering out  of precision after a large number of iterations,  but that’s based on guessing at what actually  goes on with this stuff.

It’s basically a matter of projecting virtual light rays from pixels in the virtual film plane out through the virtual focal point and into the 3D model, determining what surface in the model the ray intersects, and then using a lighting model and the reflectance properties of the surfaces in the model to determine what the color and intensity of the pixel should be. There are lots of special hacks to make things realistic. For example, how do you render fog? It wouldn’t be feasible to model every little water droplet. It’s essentially a simulation of the physics of actual photography, with a few added hacks. This is a very parallel computation — every pixel value can, in principle, be computed independently. It’s pretty easy to put lots of processors to work on the problem with good efficiency.

Response:

This is a very parallel computation — every pixel value can, in principle, be computed independently. It’s pretty easy to put lots of processors to work on the problem with good efficiency.

which is why a significant portion of Toy Story could be done using a bank of Quadras. Mu

Response:

I loved the Lord of the Rings movie. I have read the books many times and the movie did a pretty good job. The problem is that with such an epic book any movie nearly always ends up as a  series of vignettes that communicates the plot in the shortest way possible. This is at the expense of the ambience and magnificence of the book.

Ditto on loving it! I resisted watching the movie for months because the books were so important to me as a kid. I lived in the woods of Maine, and one Christmas break, I read them a lot of times. A lot. Probably some sort of record. You gotta keep in mind, I was an insecure, alienated little kid, was snowed in miles away from neighbors, and I fell in love with the fantasy world of Middle Earth. Pretty much memorized the books. So when the movie came out, I refused to go because I didn’t want to superimpose the visual images over my rich imaginary images. But yesterday, feeling particularly middle-agish and lost in another land, I went for a walk and happened across a movie theater just as LoTR was starting. Bought the ticket and went in. The movie didn’t have to ‘fill in the blanks’ for me, or have a particularly integritous plot: I still have the books memorized, and I know the characters like I know my own relatives. Instead, the images were like a photo album from my childhood, with characters I’ve been missing, and places I wish I could see IRL. That old adventurous spirit. Anyway, I sat there for the whole freaking movie with tears creeping down, one at a time. I felt like a nostalgic old idiot until I noticed the guy next to me doing the same. I loved the movie. I won’t see it again, because I want to keep my old mental images intact, but it sure was nice to see those old friends again. Oh yeah, I also cried because I’ll NEVER get to lay Liv Tyler. riverman

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I found a couple of disturbing gaps, like the pc move of changing Glorfindel

<SNIP OTOH, it was rather non-pc to exclude gay Tom Bombadil, don’t you think ? — Gary M

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Does anyone else think that the new Lord of the Rings movie is boring, in spite of the outstanding care and expertise that went into it ?

No.  I loved every minute of it.  I’ve read the trilogy dozens of times, and found the movie to be strikingly true to the original text.  It was spellbinding to this old hippie.  

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says… Does anyone else think that the new Lord of the Rings movie is boring, in spite of the outstanding care and expertise that went into it ? No.  I loved every minute of it.  I’ve read the trilogy dozens of times, and found the movie to be strikingly true to the original text.  It was spellbinding to this old hippie.  

I found a couple of disturbing gaps, like the pc move of changing Glorfindel (I believe…as I DON’T have the books memorized ) into Arwen, making Arwen more of a warrior than depicted in the books. The battle with Gandalf and Saruman was botched as well. It’s more accurate, I believe, to say that the movie is in the same spirit as the book. Rob

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 I remember seeing a very short sequence from the  last Star Wars movie which apparently took several  months’ computer time to generate.  Validating the  software for something like this must take a lot of  time.

I may be a few years out of date, and maybe someone can correct me, but I believe one program is used for the overwhelming majority of 3D computer graphics in films: Pixar’s RenderMan. Rendering images (that’s what it’s called) with a computer is routine, but expensive. The hard part is building the models. The coolest special effect I’ve seen in a long time was in a recent Blockbuster commercial. Two animals in a pet store across the street from the Blockbuster were trying to get attention. The cool thing is that the filmmakers rendered fur convincingly. Fur is hard. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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My wife found it rather boring.  She felt it did deserve an Oscar nomination  however because obviously it was an example of grand moviemaking.  I found it entertaining.  But I’m a geek. Mu

    you are also a wonderful creator of flies.  mine arrived this afternoon. i will probably keep a couple just to admire.     thanks, mu. yfitons wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Good question. The parts with actual scenery are pretty obvious if you have been or lived here, if not I guess it would be hard to tell. Having said that my fianc

Question:

You want skeeters?  Try Western Montana.  Mosquitos are their state bird!  After they drained me, they even offered me a glass of orange juice! Gus Weber

If the Red Cross could train them, they wouldn’t need volunteers.

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I didn’t want to explain the cause of my injuries to the attending physician, if Angelfire has such a thing.

Hahahaha!  Those flies are deadly…… nothing compared to the skeeters in Bismark, ND though. Did you go to the Vietnam Memorial? Hunter

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Thanks again Bob. On my recent trip to CO this past August we were going to stay at The Spa because they now have a small RV park with hookups for about 6 or so RVs, but alas only for fully self contained units and they don’t allow pets.  The massages across the street are excellent BTW. We ended up right outside town at a RV park right on the San Juan River (I think it’s called Riverview, it’s on the left as you are leaving town on Hwy 160 going toward Wolf Creek Pass) with a nice little pond of their own. Very friendly and helpful people.  I’ve been there before. The other thing I might mention is that just before you get to Wolf Creek Pass there is a turnout on the right that lets you take a nice hike up to the headwaters of the San Juan River.  It’s a nice (uphill) hike and the falls at the top are beautiful. — Peace, Love and Serenity, Madeleine

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A few notes of passing interest…. Chama, New Mexico I stayed in the Rio Chama RV Park, a nice piece of cottonwood bottom right along the river, next to a trestle bridge for the Cumbres and Toltec steam excursion train.  The Station is about a half mile west. While watching the horrible news on TV that evening, I heard a couple of loud spaced reports, like shotguns going off nearby.  I thought, "It’s black powder season – but in town?" I went down to the tracks and met one the guys who ride around in golf carts helping people park their houses.  He was walking back from the woods along the track. "Somebody shooting down here?" "Nah.  That was me.  Firecrackers.  Them bears are tryin’ to climb the fence again." It turns out that a sow and 2 cubs had been getting into the garbage cans, and apparently tore up a screen door the day before.  One of the weapons used by the Forest Service to control them is rubber bullets, which are packed with a light powder charge into a 12 gauge shotgun shell.  On request, they pass them out in small numbers to residents. I heard one fellow laughing about his "doofus" neighbor who picked up a few and then realized he only had a 20 gauge to shoot them with. Pagosa Springs, Colorado I have been coming to Pagosa to ski for 20 years.  I always stayed at the Spa Motel, to make use of the hot spring baths, the swimming pool, and the occasional massage.  One of my favorite memories of this place is the year it snowed so much the ticket office at Wolf Creek was buried, and the whole enterprise was shut down for days.  I eventually escaped to Purgatory, pointing my Bronco carefully down the middle of the white space between the humps of the fencing along the buried highway, hoping to stay on the road.  But the night before I left, I spent an interesting hour in the warm swimming pool, watching those big heavy flakes crowd down out of the black sky, plopping into the pool around me.  I’m sure they didn’t really hiss as they hit the water, but that’s the way I remember it. The swimming pool is still ok, but I am sorry to report the indoor soaking pool is not being maintained properly.  This may be just one bad day, so check it out if you come through.  They give out flannel sheets to wrap up in when you are steaming, and you can lay back on benches and drift off till you cool down and go back in.  The water is still 108 degrees, or maybe more, but when I went it hadn’t been cleaned in a while.  There was stuff floating on the surface, and it had an oily feel, and the whole room smelled like some sort of nasty soup or old dish water. The good news is that the place across the street (The Springs) is greatly improved from my last visit.  These are a series of outdoor pools (bathing suit required) in tiers down to the river, going from 110 degrees down to tepid.  If I were just a little bit younger, I’d have to say the babes in string bikinis ain’t so hard to look at, either.  $12 for the day.   I’m talking about the pools. Creede, Colorado I was wandering desolately down the main street, beseeching complete strangers for access to a phone line so I could e-mail you guys, when I saw a large orange tabby limping across the street.  She was collared, tagged, and belled.  Her left rear foot was held up high, and it looked like something red stained the paw. I ducked into the Kentucky Belle, which is a grocery store, and told the clerk it looked like someone’s cat was hurt. "Big orange cat?" "Yeah." "That’s the town cat.  She don’t belong to anyone special.  She got froze to a bridge." The girl was checking out groceries and talking over her shoulder. She was obviously busy, so I didn’t press her, though now I wish I had.  This was a healthy animal, with an imperious air only slightly spoiled by the her legged gait.  On closer inspection, the red stuff on her paw looked like some kind of medicine. The Town Cat.  I guess if you’re going to get stuck to a bridge, this is the place to do it. Between Mora and Angelfire, New Mexico I’ve noticed the black flies here are bigger and slower than the ones I’m used to in Texas.  And louder.  If you happen to leave your door open during your nap, they’ll make you dream in black and white, of old war movies.  Spitfires and B-29s.  Since I never know when a nap is coming at me, I am apt to do this. I bought a fly swatter at the Wal-Mart in Las Vegas, N.M.  Actually they came packaged in pairs, which I took as an omen.  Never know when you might need back-up. In all fairness, though, I have to say they are a tough, tenacious bunch.  I was particularly impressed with a certain Sampson of their lot.  I decided to skip Taos on the way up.  It’s a good town for walking, but finding a place to park the Behemoth I’m living in just didn’t seem attractive to me this time round.  The traffic is crazy there around the square, and you can’t avoid it. So I took a winding narrow road out of Mora, past Coyote Creek State Park.  When the road opened up a bit approaching Angelfire, I stopped in a turnout, arranged a nice view of the Sangre de Cristos, and made a sandwich.  A few flies got in, so I lay about with the swatter till they granted me a funereal peace. After I got back in the truck and started off down the hill, I noticed through the windshield that one of these smug odious vermin had made himself a perch exactly where the hood ornament would be, if I had one.  I sped up to 30 mph.  He was unconcerned.  40 mph.  He couldn’t care less.  50 mph.  If a fly could yawn, he would.  As I approached 60 mph, I saw him hunker down a little on the slick surface of the paint.  Got you now, sucker. But as luck would have it, a car slowed down in front of me, approaching a curve, and I had to let up.  I didn’t want to explain the cause of my injuries to the attending physician, if Angelfire has such a thing.  As I slowed down to 30 mph, the devil flew away.  But I cannot say blew away.  He left calmly, at a time and place of his own choosing. And that’s it for now. Bob

Response:

You want skeeters?  Try Western Montana.  Mosquitos are their state bird!  After they drained me, they even offered me a glass of orange juice! Gus Weber – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t want to explain the cause of my injuries to the attending physician, if Angelfire has such a thing. Hahahaha!  Those flies are deadly…… nothing compared to the skeeters in Bismark, ND though. Did you go to the Vietnam Memorial? Hunter

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No, I’ve been before, and this week I just didn’t need the depression it brought on.

full of Harleys. Their owners were mostly pretty scary looking…. ……there wasn’t a dry eye in the place. I had to leave I was a mess, I can’t take it when other people cry….. it was heartbreaking to be there…. Hunter

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks again Bob. On my recent trip to CO this past August we were going to stay at The Spa because they now have a small RV park with hookups for about 6 or so RVs, but alas only for fully self contained units and they don’t allow pets.  The massages across the street are excellent BTW. We ended up right outside town at a RV park right on the San Juan River (I think it’s called Riverview, it’s on the left as you are leaving town on Hwy 160 going toward Wolf Creek Pass) with a nice little pond of their own. Very friendly and helpful people.  I’ve been there before. The other thing I might mention is that just before you get to Wolf Creek Pass there is a turnout on the right that lets you take a nice hike up to the headwaters of the San Juan River.  It’s a nice (uphill) hike and the falls at the top are beautiful.

Thanks yourself.  I am going back through Pagosa this weekend.  They are having a big festival and balloon ascension, and besides it’s on the way to the fleshpots of Durango.  I give Riverview a look.  I went to the falls years ago, and I think I’ll revisit. Now I’ve got to go unload my wallet and get some flyfishing lessons for tomorrow.  Hectic pace out here.  :) Bob

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I didn’t want to explain the cause of my injuries to the attending physician, if Angelfire has such a thing. Hahahaha!  Those flies are deadly…… nothing compared to the skeeters in Bismark, ND though. Did you go to the Vietnam Memorial? Hunter

No, I’ve been before, and this week I just didn’t need the depression it brought on. It’s a good display, though.  There’s another in California with a lot of good sculpture.  It’s off IH5, but right now I can’t look it up, I’m stuck in a phone booth.  Later. Bob

Response:

A few notes of passing interest…. Chama, New Mexico I stayed in the Rio Chama RV Park, a nice piece of cottonwood bottom right along the river, next to a trestle bridge for the Cumbres and Toltec steam excursion train.  The Station is about a half mile west. While watching the horrible news on TV that evening, I heard a couple of loud spaced reports, like shotguns going off nearby.  I thought, "It’s black powder season – but in town?" I went down to the tracks and met one the guys who ride around in golf carts helping people park their houses.  He was walking back from the woods along the track. "Somebody shooting down here?" "Nah.  That was me.  Firecrackers.  Them bears are tryin’ to climb the fence again." It turns out that a sow and 2 cubs had been getting into the garbage cans, and apparently tore up a screen door the day before.  One of the weapons used by the Forest Service to control them is rubber bullets, which are packed with a light powder charge into a 12 gauge shotgun shell.  On request, they pass them out in small numbers to residents. I heard one fellow laughing about his "doofus" neighbor who picked up a few and then realized he only had a 20 gauge to shoot them with. Pagosa Springs, Colorado I have been coming to Pagosa to ski for 20 years.  I always stayed at the Spa Motel, to make use of the hot spring baths, the swimming pool, and the occasional massage.  One of my favorite memories of this place is the year it snowed so much the ticket office at Wolf Creek was buried, and the whole enterprise was shut down for days.  I eventually escaped to Purgatory, pointing my Bronco carefully down the middle of the white space between the humps of the fencing along the buried highway, hoping to stay on the road.  But the night before I left, I spent an interesting hour in the warm swimming pool, watching those big heavy flakes crowd down out of the black sky, plopping into the pool around me.  I’m sure they didn’t really hiss as they hit the water, but that’s the way I remember it. The swimming pool is still ok, but I am sorry to report the indoor soaking pool is not being maintained properly.  This may be just one bad day, so check it out if you come through.  They give out flannel sheets to wrap up in when you are steaming, and you can lay back on benches and drift off till you cool down and go back in.  The water is still 108 degrees, or maybe more, but when I went it hadn’t been cleaned in a while.  There was stuff floating on the surface, and it had an oily feel, and the whole room smelled like some sort of nasty soup or old dish water. The good news is that the place across the street (The Springs) is greatly improved from my last visit.  These are a series of outdoor pools (bathing suit required) in tiers down to the river, going from 110 degrees down to tepid.  If I were just a little bit younger, I’d have to say the babes in string bikinis ain’t so hard to look at, either.  $12 for the day.   I’m talking about the pools. Creede, Colorado I was wandering desolately down the main street, beseeching complete strangers for access to a phone line so I could e-mail you guys, when I saw a large orange tabby limping across the street.  She was collared, tagged, and belled.  Her left rear foot was held up high, and it looked like something red stained the paw.   I ducked into the Kentucky Belle, which is a grocery store, and told the clerk it looked like someone’s cat was hurt. "Big orange cat?" "Yeah." "That’s the town cat.  She don’t belong to anyone special.  She got froze to a bridge." The girl was checking out groceries and talking over her shoulder. She was obviously busy, so I didn’t press her, though now I wish I had.  This was a healthy animal, with an imperious air only slightly spoiled by the her legged gait.  On closer inspection, the red stuff on her paw looked like some kind of medicine. The Town Cat.  I guess if you’re going to get stuck to a bridge, this is the place to do it. Between Mora and Angelfire, New Mexico I’ve noticed the black flies here are bigger and slower than the ones I’m used to in Texas.  And louder.  If you happen to leave your door open during your nap, they’ll make you dream in black and white, of old war movies.  Spitfires and B-29s.  Since I never know when a nap is coming at me, I am apt to do this. I bought a fly swatter at the Wal-Mart in Las Vegas, N.M.  Actually they came packaged in pairs, which I took as an omen.  Never know when you might need back-up. In all fairness, though, I have to say they are a tough, tenacious bunch.  I was particularly impressed with a certain Sampson of their lot.  I decided to skip Taos on the way up.  It’s a good town for walking, but finding a place to park the Behemoth I’m living in just didn’t seem attractive to me this time round.  The traffic is crazy there around the square, and you can’t avoid it. So I took a winding narrow road out of Mora, past Coyote Creek State Park.  When the road opened up a bit approaching Angelfire, I stopped in a turnout, arranged a nice view of the Sangre de Cristos, and made a sandwich.  A few flies got in, so I lay about with the swatter till they granted me a funereal peace. After I got back in the truck and started off down the hill, I noticed through the windshield that one of these smug odious vermin had made himself a perch exactly where the hood ornament would be, if I had one.  I sped up to 30 mph.  He was unconcerned.  40 mph.  He couldn’t care less.  50 mph.  If a fly could yawn, he would.  As I approached 60 mph, I saw him hunker down a little on the slick surface of the paint.  Got you now, sucker. But as luck would have it, a car slowed down in front of me, approaching a curve, and I had to let up.  I didn’t want to explain the cause of my injuries to the attending physician, if Angelfire has such a thing.  As I slowed down to 30 mph, the devil flew away.  But I cannot say blew away.  He left calmly, at a time and place of his own choosing. And that’s it for now. Bob

Response:

Question:

Yo Dave, I’m with you. And I know this guy is probably going to beat me up for getting out of line here, but I couldn’t help imagining Pat’s voice as Eddie G Robinson’s." See, I use only braided line, see. You use that mono and the fish is going to rub you out, see. N’yeah" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "PAT" But I take it as an insult when you tell me I don’t have a clue. Look pards, I don’t know where you’re from, and don’t care really. ok lemme explain… i didnt mean to insult you i just thought it funny that you are telling a new jig man to forget the $150 curado he just bought and upgrade to 80 lb test.. he surely doesnt need that… you must agree that a new jig man who obviously isnt fishing for millions in prize money wouldnt need to go buy a $300 dollar set up with 80 lb test.. if he misses one fish a day who cares? Thats why its called fishing not catching! On to the next comment.. You misunderstood or misread what i wrote.. as it is quoted above i said that the name tuna should have been the first clue.. i said nothing about you being clueless.. yo might be a great fisherman but seems to me that you dispense tournament advice to an amatuer who is gettin interested in a type of fishing.. My last point.. the name "pards" might actually be taken as offensive.. i had nothing in my letter to you that was meant to be taken as a direct insult to you.. yet you reply to my email seems to not hold as much charecter!!! End of discussion. Dave

Response:

Amen, AJH.  They should have to put labels about Jigs being addictive.  :-) After you start sticking those big beauties on the jig-n-chunk, your hooked for life.  I used to only use a jig for a short time at the end of the winter season, but then I learned to catch bass on the jig-n-pig (usually zoom super chunks).  Now I use them all year through.  Swimming them through shoreline weeds is almost as much fun as top water fishing. Bassman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I fish a jig and pig just like a plastic worm. I use a 3/16 or 1/4 oz black and blue jig (Strike King Bitsy Bug) with a Zoom swimmin chunk Sapphire blue trailer. Right now I am using 14lb hi vis mono, I have ordered 30lb test Berkley Fireline in the hi vis green. I too feel it’s very important to watch the line when fishing jig and pig and worms. I am trying the Fireline in hope of improving my hook set and maybe it will allow me to feel the bass bite. Once you catch a few bass on the jig and pig you become obsessed with it. Anybody want to buy 1200 powerworms. Also I remove about half of the fibers in the weed guard, I think it allows a better hook set. I have caught at least 12 bass on the swimmin chunk I have on now and it still looks good so you can one advantage it has over the worm. Stick with it you will get hooked

Response:

"PAT" But I take it as an insult when you tell me I don’t have a clue. Look pards, I don’t know where you’re from, and don’t care really.

ok lemme explain… i didnt mean to insult you i just thought it funny that you are telling a new jig man to forget the $150 curado he just bought and upgrade to 80 lb test.. he surely doesnt need that… you must agree that a new jig man who obviously isnt fishing for millions in prize money wouldnt need to go buy a $300 dollar set up with 80 lb test.. if he misses one fish a day who cares? Thats why its called fishing not catching!   On to the next comment.. You misunderstood or misread what i wrote.. as it is quoted above i said that the name tuna should have been the first clue.. i said nothing about you being clueless.. yo might be a great fisherman but seems to me that you dispense tournament advice to an amatuer who is gettin interested in a type of fishing.. My last point.. the name "pards" might actually be taken as offensive.. i had nothing in my letter to you that was meant to be taken as a direct insult to you.. yet you reply to my email seems to not hold as much charecter!!! End of discussion.

Dave

Response:

Me too. — Why is it called ‘Tourist Season’ if we can’t shoot them ?     Shawn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to hear more. We routinely fish with 1oz. jigs in less than 3′ of water.   I’ll explain later if anyone’s interested. What your car says about you – Ford Crown Victoria – "I enjoy having people slow to 55mph and change lanes when I pull up behind them" — Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

holy smokes…..thanks for the input. Keep em’ comin’ I had luck w/ one fish so far. 3 pounder. As soon as the thing hit the water BOOM had a 4" green tube as a trailer. That was it for the rest of the day….I guess i’m gonna keep on fishin’ keeping a open mind. Brian

Response:

"Dave" Adjusted his Orvis fly fishing cap, put on his topsiders, laid down his Harvard business journal and decided the world needed to hear this: The name , tuna blank, of your "Heavy" setup should have been the first clue that you are not correctly set-up for bassin’ Dave

Look pards, I don’t know where you’re from, and don’t care really. I fish for money.  I described my tournament setups.  Why?  Lemme s’plain. First off, you gotta realise, we’re not throwing that jig on some rocky bank.   Three scenarios that I’ll explain, and maybe you’ll understand. 20′ deep matted hydrilla.  Use a minimum of a 1oz. jig.  Usually a 11/2 oz. when it’s really thick.  When that fish hits, if he moves laterally two feet, he’s gone. Lost, never to be seen again.  You must get him off the bottom and up through the matted grass instantly.  It ain’t gonna happen with 12 pound mono.  Period. Falcon lake, pitching into flooded mesquite trees.  VERY large, very strong fish.  They will stay in the thickest, nastiest part of the cover.  We used to use 30#mono, but you’d still get two a day lost by sawing off in the cover.   Skipping a jig under boat houses and docks.  Nasty place, lot’s of things to rub mono off on.  The braid ended the problem. Look Skippy, everyone goes fishing for a different reason.  If you think it’s more "sporting" to use light line, hey that’s just fine.  I’ve caught 120lb. Tarpon on fifteen pound line too.  It’s a different deal.  In a bass tournament, one lost fish is worth thousands of dollars. Literally.  If I can eliminate that from ever happening, then that’s what I’m gonna do.  But I take it as an insult when you tell me I don’t have a clue.  You spend one day on the lake with me, and you use your 6lb. mono.  Then let’s compare sacks at the end of the day.   End of discussion. Pat Goff

Response:

Hi Brian: Brain: "This is what i understand to date. You try to get it in the water next to or right in the cover making the least amount of noise you can. right?" Reply: Yes & No.  When flipping or pitching, you try and get as close as you can to your target without spooking the fish.  Often this will depend on water clarity and depth.  Depending on how close you are to your target depends on if you are flipping (0-15ft.) or pitching (15-40ft.).  Flipping is easy. Pitching on the other hand requires a lot of skill and practice.  The longer the rod the easier it is to perform both of these techniques. Your 6′6" rod is the minimum length you want to use for this technique.  A 7′6" or 8′ flipping (heavy) is the best rod for this technique.  But with 6′6" you should be able to pitch up to 25′ comfortably and quietly. Brian: "Here’s a scenario of a river we fish often. The edges of the river have thick weeds and brush back about 25 feet all seeming to be in 1-3 feet of water. NOW do i throw the jig into the brush? how far back do i throw it? OR do I just try to work the edges?" Reply: When I am fishing a weedbed, I first flip or pitch to the shade side of weed points, cuts, and holes (1′ to 3′ in) along the edge.  I position the boat parallel to the weedbed but 15′ to 20′ off the weedbed itself and work the entire edge.  Then I would slowly and quietly move my boat so that it was just touch the weeds and then flip or pitch to the holes that are further in the weeds and thoroughly fish the weedbed out. Brian: "When should i use different colors or weights of jigs?" Reply: As for color you need to know what the fish are feeding on.  If the primary forage is crawfish, then I would use black, brown, pumpkin, or watermelon. If the primary forage is shad then I would use black, white, or black/white blend or gray/black/white blend.  Clear water (crawfish) I use brown/black (jig skirt/trailer), pumpkin/green or pumpkin/orange, watermelon/brown, pumpkin/brown, pumpkin/black.  Clear water (shad) white/black (jig skirt/trailer), black/white, white/white, black&gray/white. As far as weight, I use small 1/8, 3/16, 1/4 ounce jigs for smallmouth around rock and gravel bottom (0-8 ft of water)and #101 or #11 pork trailers, or 5/16 ounce for deeper water #11 trailer.  I use 5/16 & 3/8 ounce jigs for largemouth along weedbeds, brush piles, etc.  I use 1/2, 3/4, and 1 ounce jigs for thick weeds or fishing deep structures.  But I believe we can all learn from Woo’s Classic victory.  So you can count on me trying 3/16 & 1/4 jigs on 8 pound test with #11 trailers in deeper water. Brian: "Do you flip it in there, let it sit for a while? bounce it off the bottom? swim it? Or are there any rules at all? Does the same things apply here the same as in all other tackle? Or is it just a convoy mission to get in there, scare the crap out of the fish, so he’ll bite and then bring him on home?" Reply: Tough question.  I personally start with flipping or pitching a jig into the cover and let it settle to the bottom.  Then I hop it a couple of times in place (1" to 3"), then a couple more moving hops (6"-12") and then I swim it out.  Remember to stop it just before the jig gets to the top and let it drop a second and then pull it.  Once I get a strike or two, I know what they want and I drop the other movements. Brain: "If somebody could be kind enough to explain the point of Jig-n-a pig. It would make me(i bet a bunch of other people too!) understand it better." Reply: There are many types of jigs, all for different types of cover and presentations.  Jigs can represent many different types of forage.  A simple hair jig looks more like a fish or larvae.  A larger hair jig with a bigger pork trailer can represent a mouse or small animal.  While rubber skirted jigs look more like crawfish.  Silicone skirted jigs can represent both fish and crawfish depending on color.  Let’s start with "Hair" jigs.  These are the oldest type and are super effective in clear water or when there is little cover.  The hair moves with the water action (waves) and applied action looks more alive (in my opinion) then do silicone skirts.  They are excellent in colder water situations.  Rubber and silicone skirted jigs and all the possible colors can be customized to match the forage in your area. I always custom blend my skirts to closely match the crawfish or forage fish in the lake I am fishing.  Example.  The crawfish in my home lake are light brown and have black and light orange patches.  So I start with a pumpkin colored skirt and add a strain or two of black and orange.  Then I put on a brown or orange trailer.  On the orange trailer I use a black permanent marker and dye it so that it looks mostly black with orange spots. The jig can be presented in a lot of ways to match the conditions you are fishing.  A light jig (1/8, 3/16, 1/4 ounce) with a #101 can represent a small fish or crawfish.  On clam water this setup will have a medium fall rate (about 1 to 1.5 seconds per foot)  The same jig with a #11 pork trailer will fall much slower (1.5 to 2 second a foot), and look like a bigger fish or crawfish.  The same jig with a #1 trailer will fall real slow (2 to 3 seconds a foot) and an even larger fish and crawfish. Brian: When jig hits the water does it really matter if it’s quiet or not?" Reply: Most of the time you want to flip or pitch this type of lure into the water as quietly as possible.  But there are times when splashing the jig can be beneficial (like in muddy water or at night or when casting the jig on top of thick matted weeds). Hopes this helps. — Craig Baugher

Response:

I’d like to hear more. We routinely fish with 1oz. jigs in less than 3′ of water.   I’ll explain later if anyone’s interested.

What your car says about you – Ford Crown Victoria – "I enjoy having people slow to 55mph and change lanes when I pull up behind them" — Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Mobees, also some ‘good’ reading on the subject here: http://www.bassdozer.com/articles.shtml What your car says about you – Ford Crown Victoria – "I enjoy having people slow to 55mph and change lanes when I pull up behind them" — Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

 My "light" duty setup is a Quantum flipping rod 7′6" with 50lb. Oldham’s braid.  My "heavy" setup is a Waterloo double wall tuna blank-8′ with 80lb. Oldham’s braid. 50lb. Oldham’s braid. 80lb. Oldham’s braid.

I have caught 100+ pound sharks..the meanest fighter pound for pound.. on 20 lb test around very sharp coral heads..much sharper than logs…I understand needing heavy equipment but heavy in the bass world is 20lb test… if you need 50 or 80 pound test for a 10 pound bass what would you use for a real fish? When i am land locked as i am now i use 6 or maybe 12 pound test and have done very well with bass.  It seems funny to me that you need heavier test than i have ever fished in the ocean with to catch bass… maybe you could email me and explain to me why the overly strong choice in test line?  The name , tuna blank, of your "Heavy" setup should have been the first clue that you are not correctly set-up for bassin’ Dave

Response:

I fish a jig and pig just like a plastic worm. I use a 3/16 or 1/4 oz black and blue jig (Strike King Bitsy Bug) with a Zoom swimmin chunk Sapphire blue trailer. Right now I am using 14lb hi vis mono, I have ordered 30lb test Berkley Fireline in the hi vis green. I too feel it’s very important to watch the line when fishing jig and pig and worms. I am trying the Fireline in hope of improving my hook set and maybe it will allow me to feel the bass bite. Once you catch a few bass on the jig and pig you become obsessed with it. Anybody want to buy 1200 powerworms. Also I remove about half of the fibers in the weed guard, I think it allows a better hook set. I have caught at least 12 bass on the swimmin chunk I have on now and it still looks good so you can one advantage it has over the worm. Stick with it you will get hooked

Response:

Mobees drank two pots of coffee, kicked the dogs off the porch, ran the kids off on the yard, sat down and decided the world needed to hear: When should i use differnet colors or weights of jigs? do you flip it in there, let it sit for a while? bounce it off the bottom? swim it? Or are there any rules at all?

Ok, I’m going to get probably ripped for what I’m going to tell you, that’s fine, if they’ve caught half the fish we’ve caught on a jig, I’ll listen to ‘em. There are no "rules"  I’ll tell you that right now. The only rule is figure out what’s working right now. Don’t ever be afraid to experiment with colors, weight, trailers, and combinations. Ok, I’ll give you a few things I’ve learned, and discovered. 1. Use a heavier jig when the water’s hot.  When the water’s warm, the metabolism of the bass is way high, so you need to match the speed of you lure to the fish’s aggressiveness.  We routinely fish with 1oz. jigs in less than 3′ of water.   I’ll explain later if anyone’s interested. 2.  Cast it into the MIDDLE of the cover.  That’s where they live. 3.  Don’t be afraid to experiment.  We use solid white, purple, chartuese, and other goofy looking colors.  Try lot’s of different trailers.  We’ll use an entire 8" lizard on the back of a jig with much success.   4.  Don’t be afraid to vary your presentation.  Somedays they just aren’t on the bottom.  Someday’s they want it fast, someday’s slow, they’ll tell you when you figure it out. 5.  Be a sniper.  You need to learn to put that jig into places you wouldn’t send your rabbit hound.   6.  Upgrade your equipment.  This isn’t a slam on your new rod&reel pards, but that’s what I’d fish an open rock bank with.  My "light" duty setup is a Quantum flipping rod 7′6" with 50lb. Oldham’s braid.  My "heavy" setup is a Waterloo double wall tuna blank-8′ with 80lb. Oldham’s braid. 7. Upgrade your jigs.  Anything you buy with an American made hook is second rate.  Anyone who’s ever used one would agree the Oldham’s eye-max is the finest jig made.  512-847-9202   There is much more to fishing the most effective quality bass lure made, and we’ll continue this discussion if anyone’s interested. Pat Goff

Response:

Brain, I will try to answer some of your questions, and I’m sure there are other here that can tell you more than I can.  You will find that certain presentations produce more bass than others.  It depends on the weather, water conditions, mood of the fish (which is affected by everything), and also on what you feel comfortable with. Often times bass will hit a jig/pig combo on the initial drop.  These are the blessed times when you can ease along a bank, pitching or flipping a jig to cover and set the hook as soon as the bait starts to fall.  But they don’t always do that.  Sometimes they will not touch it jig if you are moving it.  They prefer for it to just lay there wriggling on its own, then the move in a pick it up.  You just have to try it one way and if it doesn’t work change.  I have noticed that on high pressure days, or in extremely clear water, the bass seem to prefer that the lure remain motionless, at least as far as your input to the motion is concerned.  I have also done well in these conditions by using a heavy jig head and getting the reaction strikes as the bait rips past them on the way to the bottom.  In murky water or flowing water bass seem to like to hit the jig on the initial fall. But, as I mentioned before… sometimes it’s just trial and error. Some things that you should follow as basic rules will help you increase your catch on jig and pigs combos.  Always watch your line.  Try to allow your bait to fall straight down on a simi-tight line; not so tight that the lure can’t fall straight down, but tight enough to remain in contact with the lure as it falls.  Always watch your line.  Place the lure into the water as quietly as possible, especially in shallow or clear water conditions.  Always watch your line.  Put you lure as close to cover as possible.  The clearer the water or higher the barometric pressure, the closer and deeper in cover they tend to be.  Set the hook fast upon detecting a strike, whether by site or feel, don’t pause at all like you might do with soft plastic lures.  And, always watch your line. I don’t know if this gives you a detailed enough outline of how to fish the jig-n-pig, but just as with any other lure, it’s always up to the bass to dictate how they will bite, we just have to figure it out. Good luck and always watch your line, Bassman Duane Knight

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everybody. I wanted to figure out how to fish jig n a pig style w/ 20 pound test on a heavier pole w/ a baitcasting reel. So i went out and bought a Shimano Curado and a lightning rod med/heavy 6′6" rod. thru on a 3/8 jig w/ a matching pork trailer…great. that’s the easy part….Now, I’m practicing how to flip it different ways etc…Okay…thats about as far as i got.    This is what i understand to date. You try to get it in the water next to or right in the cover making the least amount of noise you can. right? Sounds easy enough.     Here’s a scenario of a river we fish often. The edges of the river have thick weeds and brush back about 25 feet all seeming to be in 1-3 feet of water. NOW do i throw the jig into the brush? how far back do i throw it? OR do i just try to work the edges? I know i should just get out there and use it,use it and use it some more, but i like to understand things, before i go out and fish. When should i use differnet colors or weights of jigs? do you flip it in there, let it sit for a while? bounce it off the bottom? swim it? Or are there any rules at all? Does the same things apply here the same as in all other tackle? Or is it just a convoy mission to get in there, scare the crap out of the fish, so he’ll bite and then bring him on home??? I need help w/ this. If somebody could be kind enough to explain the point of Jig-n-a pig. It would make me(i bet a bunch of other people too!) understand it better. When jig hits the water does it really matter if it’s quiet or not? So many ?’s…..Anyway thanks in advance for any info you can provide me! Brian

Response:

Hi everybody. I wanted to figure out how to fish jig n a pig style w/ 20 pound test on a heavier pole w/ a baitcasting reel. So i went out and bought a Shimano Curado and a lightning rod med/heavy 6′6" rod. thru on a 3/8 jig w/ a matching pork trailer…great. that’s the easy part….Now, I’m practicing how to flip it different ways etc…Okay…thats about as far as i got.    This is what i understand to date. You try to get it in the water next to or right in the cover making the least amount of noise you can. right? Sounds easy enough.     Here’s a scenario of a river we fish often. The edges of the river have thick weeds and brush back about 25 feet all seeming to be in 1-3 feet of water. NOW do i throw the jig into the brush? how far back do i throw it? OR do i just try to work the edges? I know i should just get out there and use it,use it and use it some more, but i like to understand things, before i go out and fish. When should i use differnet colors or weights of jigs? do you flip it in there, let it sit for a while? bounce it off the bottom? swim it? Or are there any rules at all? Does the same things apply here the same as in all other tackle? Or is it just a convoy mission to get in there, scare the crap out of the fish, so he’ll bite and then bring him on home??? I need help w/ this. If somebody could be kind enough to explain the point of Jig-n-a pig. It would make me(i bet a bunch of other people too!) understand it better. When jig hits the water does it really matter if it’s quiet or not? So many ?’s…..Anyway thanks in advance for any info you can provide me! Brian

Response:

Question:

I have an API Spartan vise.  I just broke the jaw.  I emailed Orvis and they didn’t know where to get parts.  Does anybody know who makes(ed) them or where I may get parts? Thank you, Dr. Richeson

Response:

Try rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying Regards, Jeff

Response:

Kennebec River Tackle in Maine now makes what was the API.  Would guess that the parts fit. Sorry, don’t know exactly where they’re located.  Hope this little bit helps. Aaron Hirschhorn

Response:

thank you… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kennebec River Tackle in Maine now makes what was the API.  Would guess that the parts fit. Sorry, don’t know exactly where they’re located.  Hope this little bit helps. Aaron Hirschhorn

Response:

They are in Bath Maine but I can’t find an ad around here anyplace for a phone number sorry. Flyfish – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thank you… Kennebec River Tackle in Maine now makes what was the API.  Would guess that the parts fit. Sorry, don’t know exactly where they’re located.  Hope this little bit helps. Aaron Hirschhorn

Response:

Kennebec River Fly & Tackle  -  207-729-5200

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They are in Bath Maine but I can’t find an ad around here anyplace for a phone number sorry. Flyfish thank you… Kennebec River Tackle in Maine now makes what was the API.  Would guess that the parts fit. Sorry, don’t know exactly where they’re located.  Hope this little bit helps. Aaron Hirschhorn

Response:

Question:

I will be tying all weekend at the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo in Southfield, MI., March 11 and 12. I will be set up where the video equipment has always been.  I will be tying 5-6 each day using my macro-video system.  I have added a wonderful PA system so that all will be able to hear as well as see what I am doing.  I will be showing all of the Rivergod bugs as well as concentrating on tips, special techniques and durability.  Bring your questions.  All of the Rivergod dry flies will be available at The Fly Factory booth.  Hope to see you there.

WEB CAM! WEB CAM! SCREAMIN’ STREAMIN’ VIDEO!!!

Response:

(AuSable1) writes: All of the Rivergod dry flies will be available at The Fly Factory booth. Hope to see you there.

Just out of curiosity, which flies at the *factory* are yours? or is this something new? Wayne Knight (remove nospam to respond via mail) Expert in the creation of  wind knots and tailing loops.

Response:

I will be tying all weekend at the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo in Southfield, MI., March 11 and 12. I will be set up where the video equipment has always been.  I will be tying 5-6 each day using my macro-video system.  I have added a wonderful PA system so that all will be able to hear as well as see what I am doing.  I will be showing all of the Rivergod bugs as well as concentrating on tips, special techniques and durability.  Bring your questions.  All of the Rivergod dry flies will be available at The Fly Factory booth.  Hope to see you there. Yippee Tie One On! Dennis Potter, Fly Crafter

Response:

I will be tying all weekend at the Midwest Fly Fishing Expo in Southfield, MI., March 11 and 12. I will be set up where the video equipment has always been.  I will be tying 5-6 each day using my macro-video system.  I have added a wonderful PA system so that all will be able to hear as well as see what I am doing.  I will be showing all of the Rivergod bugs as well as concentrating on tips, special techniques and durability.  Bring your questions.  All of the Rivergod dry flies will be available at The Fly Factory booth.  Hope to see you there. Yippee Tie One On! Dennis Potter, Fly Crafter

_______  Sounds interesting enough to make me consider flying there and attending.  Thanks for the information Dennis. Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

Question:

You don’t need a video to tell you that if the lines breaking you need a higher wt line.  When guides say to you "there’s no way you need more than a 4lb tippet on that river" what they really mean is that IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF you had the shuttle, boat and knowledge of where the holes were, that even though the current was raging back at the public fishing area you could fish 2-4lb leader in the deep wide holes they fish.  They don’t know that you need a 10lb leader back where the currents raging and the fish can get out sideways in it.  So when they tell you there’s no way you need anything bigger than a 5.1lb tippet (or whatever they claim is the max wt used by "real fishermen")

Unless one has no ability at all to play a fish properly, he will certainly land more fish on a heavier tippet.   At the same time, it is certainly possible to successfully land a big fish on a very light tippet.   On the Salmon River, though, (and anywhere for that matter) you need to balance more than just landing a fish against tippet strength.   If you play a fish for 45 minutes on a 4 lb tippet, everyone around you has to keep their lines out of the water and thumbs up their asses while you have a good time all by yourself.   And when you have it on the beach, it will be dead beat and no candidate for c&r if you are so inclined.   On the other hand, boy was that fun. If you tie on a big heavy tippet, you’ll be able to put a lot more pressure on the fish and get it to the beach more quickly.   Go too far in this direction, however, and you may as well be one of the brainless meat fishermen spin casting with 30 lb mono to haul ‘em in. For me, a guy of below average ability, I’ve found 8 or 10 lb to be quite sufficient on the Salmon R. to give me a good balance of sport, success, and courtesy.   I will add that if you are breaking off a lot, be sure it’s not your knots.

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You don’t need a video to tell you that if the lines breaking you need a higher wt line.  When guides say to you "there’s no way you need more than a 4lb tippet on that river" what they really mean is that IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF you had the shuttle, boat and knowledge of where the holes were, that even though the current was raging back at the public fishing area you could fish 2-4lb leader in the deep wide holes they fish.  They don’t know that you need a 10lb leader back where the currents raging and the fish can get out sideways in it.  So when they tell you there’s no way you need anything bigger than a 5.1lb tippet (or whatever they claim is the max wt used by "real fishermen") Tie your own tappered leaders.  I was reading in a book on al fly fishing just the other nite that the author reccomends making your tappered leader from 40, 30, 20 and 18in of material of 25, 20, 15, and 10lb line respectively.  Good luck, I hope this has been some help. Fished the Salmon River in Pulaski, New York with a fly rod this week and found the experience to be quite different from that of dry fly fishing.  I hooked and broke off three fish and would like any recommendations on:  books/videos relate to this type of fishing, recs on a good entry level rod and reel for

– Cordially, Mike McNally Speculators may do no harm as bubbles on a steady stream of enterprise. But the position is serious when enterprise becomes the bubble on a whirlpool of speculation.               –John Maynard Keynes

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You don’t need a video to tell you that if the lines breaking you need a higher wt line.  When guides say to you "there’s no way you need more than a 4lb tippet on that river" what they really mean

<snip Amen. I have used a short (7 ft) 10 or 12 lb tippet on my sink tip, and a 12 ft 8 lb tippet for salmon and steelhead for years. Yep, I lose some still, but I have caught (and released) more than 150 salmon this fall alone.

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I just got Flies for Steelhead by Farrow Allen and Dick Stewart from Lyons Press (~$20 softcover). The photography is quite good and it has a thorough collection of patterns from different regions of the country. The flies in the photos are tied either by the inventor of the pattern or by a well known tyer from the region of origin.  Great Lakes Steelhead – A Guided Tour for Fly Anglers from Back Country Press ($20) is a great book by Bob Linsenmann and Steve Nevala (fun reading).  There is a brief but very practical sections on techniques, equipment, etc in the beginning. The rest of the book is a collection of essays collected from these guys going fishing with a number of guides in their home waters.  Fly Fishing for Salmon and Steelhead of the Great Lakes by Ken Filkins ($17 Wilderness Books – hard to find but available on www.amazon.com).  This book mostly emphasizes chuck and duck type fishing but has a really good section on fish attitudes towards different types of flies & presentations thus explaining (or at least stating) why many west coast techniques are only effective during a short period of the steelhead’s migration into midwestern tributaries.  I’ve been using a Scientific Anglers System 2m 8/9.  It’s a reasonably inexpensive and very reliable disc drag reel.  The regular System 2 is quite heavy but I don’t know if the 2m is still in production.  As far as a rod is concerned I bought myself the cheapest one I could find, a St. Croix 9ft 9 weight Pro-Graphite.  With all the brush I run through, the slippery rocks, ice, hands made numb and clumsy by the bitter chill, I wouldn’t want to risk damaging an expensive stick.  Just letting you know what has worked well for me.  I don’t have the experience nor the moeny to really tell you what other options are available to you. Good Fishing.    Mu Young Lee         Ann Arbor, MI  o             oooo                          o   o   o o   o o o  o – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fished the Salmon River in Pulaski, New York with a fly rod this week and found the experience to be quite different from that of dry fly fishing.  I hooked and broke off three fish and would like any recommendations on:  books/videos relate to this type of fishing, recs on a good entry level rod and reel for

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Fished the Salmon River in Pulaski, New York with a fly rod this week and found the experience to be quite different from that of dry fly fishing.  I hooked and broke off three fish and would like any recommendations on:  books/videos relate to this type of fishing, recs on a good entry level rod and reel for

It seems to be normal to break off 3 fish in this sort of fishing: but not normal to break off 100 per cent of hookups. The range of tackle is from medium (say 6 weight rod with 2x or 6 lb. tippets) to strong (8 or 9 weight, tippets 0X or 12 lb.) This river is sufficiently free of obstructions that you can fish the lighter tackle — provided you have a first-class reel, because its drag is important.  (Heavier tackle is useful in smaller Michigan or Ontario steelhead rivers.) Winter freshwater salmon and steelhead seem not to be leader shy.  They may or may not avoid sideways drag: but the essential point is to be able to present the fly as deep as the fish’s holding depth, whatever that is.  I have known people to make special sinking leaders (coated with powdered led embedded in glue) for this purpose. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Fished the Salmon River in Pulaski, New York with a fly rod this week and found the experience to be quite different from that of dry fly fishing.  I hooked and broke off three fish and would like any recommendations on:  books/videos relate to this type of fishing, recs on a good entry level rod and reel for

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Question:

Hello all,

[much snipped] Years ago I read, "Smoke is only smoke to me, now that I am old."  So, Fishing is fishing.  Like the Water Rat said in The Wind in the Willows: Come along over some time.  We’ll drop down to the river and make a day of it. Jess Thompson

Jesse Debate is healthy and often fun, providing it doesn’t degenerate into the slinging about of low grade insults.  I wouldn’t sweat it too much.  Fishing is about fun, especially shared fun.  Hopefully, some of that fun gets shared in ROFF too.  But I’ve noticed that it’s the contentious issues that get all the ink.  I post a couple of flyfishing stories and they’re barely noticed, but my whining about rod prices generated about 200 repsonses when you count in the derivatives.  I guess it’s just human nature.   Anyway. I had a great year of fishing, and I hope everyone else that reads this ng, did too.  Hopefully, in the new year, we’ll catch that big brown that spurned all our offerings last summer. Peter

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Well Peter, perhaps you whine better than you write. Just kidding, I enjoyed your stories. — Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison <snip I’ve noticed that it’s the contentious issues that get all the ink.  I

post a couple of flyfishing stories and  they’re barely noticed, but my whining about rod prices generated about 200 repsonses when you count in the derivatives.  I guess it’s just human nature.   <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter

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Hello all, Please believe that I stumbled quite innocently into the fracus of C & E versus C & R.  And quite tardily.  Believe me also when I say that though I am old, I am not to old to learn, and to re-learn.  I should retract the statement  that I "slanted {the article Catch and Eat} purposely to arouse debate."   Talking over the pros and cons of a question, in a friendly fashion, I enjoy, but not dispute and name-calling.   It’s more correct to say that I wrote it rather, partly, in defense of those who received venomous messages for their positions.  And, because I had seen at times, on TV, what appeared to be careless C & R; and, because I think it’s okay to eat a fish now and then.  And surely, in the heat of reaction, I got a bit carried away.  If I had let the article cool longer, I would have toned down some of the more inflammatory passages.   The kind of fishing that’s done, C & E, C & R, fly, spoon, plug, bait–it all depends on who when what where and why.  The conditions, the fishing pressure, the fish populations, the locale. . . . But no matter what, we all like to fish; we all want to protect fish and fishing.   Mark Kelly, Steve Dsrt Traveler, Peter Charles, Moe, Ralph, Ernie, others (I don’t have all the names in front of me) have made good points–but it comes down to what Mark said–we all like to fish, we ought all,  finally, to support each other, and that’s exactly what I want to come back to. I’ve eaten  fish, I’ve  released fish, I’ve caught ‘em through the long years on worms, eggs, spoons, plugs, flies, treble hooks, barbless hooks, tiny hooks, big hooks, wild fish, hatchery fish, in pretty places, mucky places, and all of it,  any of it, well, "if it ain’t fun" I don’t know what is.  And the older you get, the more pleasant the memories of it all are.  Like all of us, I just wish we could all do more of it.   It’s fun if you catch fish or don’t catch fish, fun to watch others fish, to watch others catch fish.  I think it was Mark who fetched me up, properly, to remember that if we fight among ourselves, we don’t do the fishing world any good at all, but rather harm.   So I don’t want to rub sores, nor much care any more to wander off into the realms of mythology or animalism or primitivism or anthropology or philosophy. . .fishin’ is fishin’.   When we come down to earth, we know that.  In our better selves, we all know it:   Fishin’ is fishin’.   Exactly that. Years ago I read, "Smoke is only smoke to me, now that I am old."  So, Fishing is fishing.  Like the Water Rat said in The Wind in the Willows: Come along over some time.  We’ll drop down to the river and make a day of it. Jess Thompson

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Hello all, Please believe that I stumbled quite innocently into the fracus of C & E versus C & R.  And quite tardily.  Believe me also when I say that though I am old, I am not to old to learn, and to re-learn.  I should retract the statement  that I "slanted {the article Catch and Eat} purposely to arouse debate."   Talking over the pros and cons of a question, in a friendly fashion, I enjoy, but not dispute and name-calling.

Well Jess, that whole subject is something of a sore spot around here. You can’t even mention it without starting a huge rucus. It’s more correct to say that I wrote it rather, partly, in defense of those who received venomous messages for their positions.  And, because I had seen at times, on TV, what appeared to be careless C & R; and, because I think it’s okay to eat a fish now and then.  And surely, in the heat of reaction, I got a bit carried away.  If I had let the article cool longer, I would have toned down some of the more inflammatory passages.

Ah!  Not to worry. <snip So I don’t want to rub sores, nor much care any more to wander off into the realms of mythology or animalism or primitivism or anthropology or philosophy. . .fishin’ is fishin’.   When we come down to earth, we know that.  In our better selves, we all know it:   Fishin’ is fishin’. Exactly that.

I agree whole-heartedly.  I seems though, that there is a rather curious factor involved.  It seems that FFing is taking on a religious quality complete with orthodoxy, traditions, dogma, and theology.  It schmecks of fundamentalism with the "our way or no way" attitude you see on our trout streams.  A blinkered ideology that leaves little or no room for ideas outside strict adherance to the status quo. But you sir are right.  Fishin’ is Fishin’.  No more no less.  I can’t save the world, hell it won’t even save the rivers.  Better to enjoy it for what it is, rather than what we may want it to be. Years ago I read, "Smoke is only smoke to me, now that I am old."  So, Fishing is fishing.  Like the Water Rat said in The Wind in the Willows: Come along over some time.  We’ll drop down to the river and make a day of it. Jess Thompson

Well said sir. </c — </chaz Chaz Clover The Paved Earth Society http://www.rmi.net/~clover/pave_the_earth   "Why Not Just Get On With It?"

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Question:

Can anyone help, I’m a British fly fisherman and on a recent trip to the states I noticed how much cheaper fly lines etc. are. I was wondering whether anybody knew of how you can get fly flishing equipment by internet order

Start a search in one of the search engines (Yahoo, Alta Vista, Infoseek, etc.) for flyfishing equipment and supplies. There are many out there on the web to seek out. Also, keep an eye out in this group, people do list their web sites quite often – even though some do object to that. — Jon Porter

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Cold Spring Anglers in Carlisle, PA also produces a nice catalog and does a lot of mail order business (including to foreign addresses).  Their phones numbers are 717 245-2646, fax 717 245-2081.  Their snail mail address is 419 East High Street, Suite A; PO Box 129; Carlsile PA 17013 17013–129.

Visit my mail order info page at http://www.public.usit.net/skulpa/mailord.htm lots of address for catalogs, plus e-mail addresses and urls where applicable. Steve — Steven S. Kulpa Project Leader Environmental Systems Corp. Knoxville, Tennessee http://www.envirosys.com/ Remove NO_S*P*A*M_ from reply address —

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Cold Spring Anglers in Carlisle, PA also produces a nice catalog and does a lot of mail order business (including to foreign addresses).  Their phones numbers are 717 245-2646, fax 717 245-2081.  Their snail mail address is 419 East High Street, Suite A; PO Box 129; Carlsile PA 17013 17013–129. — Anti-spamming measure in use.  To reply, remove one "z" from email address.

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Can anyone help, I’m a British fly fisherman and on a recent trip to the states I noticed how much cheaper fly lines etc. are. I was wondering whether anybody knew of how you can get fly flishing equipment by internet order Paul mannu cambridge UK

Paul: Why not just order from catalogs, etc.?  The biggest disadvantage would be shipping costs, but still, if the stuff is cheaper here, it would probably be worthwhile.  Also, for merchandise that can’t be found in a national catalog (Simms waders, Sage rods, Airflo fly line, whatever else), many stores have web pages and their own "personal" catalogs. Examples here in the East would be AA Pro shop and Tulpehocken Creek Outfitters, (tcoflyfishing.com) to name 2.  Any fly shop would fill your order, even those that do not ususally do such business.  One of the best fly shops in the East is Fred Reese’s.  He does all his own dubbings, dyeing, etc.  Give him an extra $10 US and I’m sure he’ll ship. JB

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Can anyone help, I’m a British fly fisherman and on a recent trip to the states I noticed how much cheaper fly lines etc. are. I was wondering whether anybody knew of how you can get fly flishing equipment by internet order Paul mannu cambridge UK

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Question:

Does anyone out there know anything about small trout lakes or spring-ponds in the Black Hills? I have heard rumors of good fishing there and would also like to see that part of the country. Thanks Forrest. flyfishing,packer football sports ingeneral

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A long, long time ago I caught numerous small brookies on a beaver pond in Litch (?) Creek in the Black hills. I think it was in about 1981. The Black Hills are worth the trip, even if you’re not fishing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone out there know anything about small trout lakes or spring-ponds in the Black Hills? I have heard rumors of good fishing there and would also like to see that part of the country. Thanks Forrest. flyfishing,packer football sports ingeneral

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Litch (?) Creek in the Black hills. I think it was in about 1981. The Black Hills are worth the trip, even if you’re not fishing.

Excuse my ignorance, but, what state are we talking about? South Dakota? John Nesselrode Shawnee, KS

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Question:

I am planning a short trip to the Bay Area in mid-march. Can anyone suggest good trout waters within a couple hours of San Francisco?

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Because the general trout season doesn’t open until May 1st, trout waters are hard to come by near San Francisco in mid-March.  However, there is one trout stream that remains open, about a one and a half hour drive. It’s called Putah Creek.  It’s a tailwater, flowing out of a man-made reservoir, called Lake Berryessa.  It’s a bit north of a town called Vacaville, east of San Francisco off Highway 80, on the way to Sacramento.  Easy to find on a map.  Make local inquiries as to how to get to the section below the dam. If you want to get into some big trout, (and I’m talking 6-8 lbs.) drive north on Highway 5 for about 3 1/2 hours.  Between the towns of Anderson and Red Bluff, on the Sacramento River, a guide can be had to float you through that water.  This is a blue ribbon fishery, and open at this time of year.  Make inquiries for guides, etc.  through the "Redding Fly Shop."  Their phone number is (916) 222-3555. Those guys really know the water in that area, and can put you into good fishing, and will arrange good guides for you. Tight Lines! Old Deep

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: I am planning a short trip to the Bay Area in mid-march. Can anyone : suggest good trout waters within a couple hours of San Francisco? Here are the Lakes that are now open: From nearest to the farthest: Lake Merced: Right in the Heart of San Francisco San Pablo Dam Reservoir: Take San Pablo Dam Road in Richmond Lake Del Valle: This is south of Livermore Parkway Lake: Private lake, open to anyone even without a license for a fee Lake Chabot Lake Berryessa: Napa County Lake Pardee Lake Camanche Lake Amador

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writes: If you want to get into some big trout, (and I’m talking 6-8 lbs.) drive north on Highway 5 for about 3 1/2 hours.  Between the towns of Anderson and Red Bluff, on the Sacramento River, a guide can be had to float you through that water.  This is a blue ribbon fishery, and open at this time of year.  Make inquiries for guides, etc.  through the "Redding Fly Shop." Their phone number is (916) 222-3555. Those guys really know the water in that area, and can put you into good fishing, and will arrange good guides for you.

Be sure to call ahead to check on flows.  You can wade the Lower Sac in the town of Redding and down to Anerson when the flows are 4000cfs or lower.  5000cfs gets a little tough to wade and above 8000cfs you can use a boat, but probably won’t find many fish.  Currently the Lower Sac flows are 35,000 cfs.  We had some warm weather which filled Shasta lake up too much from run-off so they are dumping it like crazy now. If the flows are good in March, there are usually great caddis hatches and both good nymphing and dry fly fishing.   About 2 hrs out of SF you can fish the Mokulemne River below Comanche Dam or the lower part of the Stanislaus River.  Both can be good in March. Also may be decent Striper fishing in the Delta then.                                             Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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