Question:

Would anyone like to give a history of Roff. When it started,who are the longest posters Etc.

Response:

I and several others helped kick off alt.fishing in the late 1980’s, and the Associated Press and several well known magazines interviewed us and ran articles on the new forum for fishers. Until the early 1990’s, I posted stats on who the top posters were per year.  Readership was about 20,000-40,000 in the early years Several years later, Brian Dixon (then in Colorado, ironically now working for HP a few buildings away from me) successfully led an effort to get the rec.outdoors.fishing.* hierarchy started. Certainly many of us older posters don’t post as much due to other activities. I remain very impressed with the quality and value of the fishing forums, and thank many of you for keeping things going. Thomas Gilg – President, Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers, Corvallis Oregon – VP Conservation, Oregon Council of the Federation of Fly Fishers – Oregon [Fish] Restoration and Enhancement Board, Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife    (i.e. I and 6 others get to decide how to spend the several-dollar surcharge on every    angling license sold in Oregon to improve fisheries and fishing opportunities) – lots of other fishing conservation and education stuff

Response:

Would anyone like to give a history of Roff. When it started,who are the longest posters Etc.

I’m not sure who started ROFF or how long ago it was, but I’ll bet HWMNBN was the one who introduced him to USENET as they developed new fly patterns in a foxhole in the Korean War. –Steve (hey, someone’s gotta namedrop, even during a Clave)

Response:

, I posted stats on who the top posters were per year.  Readership was about 20,000-40,000 in the early years    thomas, is there any way that you or some other tekkie could roughly determine the number of posters/lurkers on roff at the present? wayno

There’s no way to count pure lurkers, without having server logs for every access point on the net – world wide. Most of us are already booked for other more worthy endeavors, but I invite my good friend from The Old North State to have at it with his usual gusto ;^) Otherwise, you could scoop a contributing authors list through one of the news archivers for as far back as they go. I figure that roughly 500 authors have contributed (positively or otherwise) since Opening Day. /daytripper (who’s heading for the Cape of Cod for the week. Buh Bye! ;^)

Response:

thomas, is there any way that you or some other tekkie could roughly determine the number of posters/lurkers on roff at the present?

Well, number of posters would be fairly easy. However, if there’s someone out there who can tell how many lurkers there are, please let me know. I have a few questions to ask about my future. –Steve

Response:

Tom;   From a self professed computer geek and fly fishing fanatic, thank you.          Frank Reid Before you buy.

Response:

, I posted stats on who the top posters were per year.  Readership was about 20,000-40,000 in the early years

        thomas, is there any way that you or some other tekkie could roughly determine the number of posters/lurkers on roff at the present? wayno

Response:

Amen! Well done Tom. This ng and ROFFT are the major reasons I enjoy my online time. — Jamie http://clik.to/flyfish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tom;   From a self professed computer geek and fly fishing fanatic, thank you.          Frank Reid Before you buy.

Response:

Wayne Harrison: … is there any way that you or some other tekkie could roughly determine the number of posters/lurkers on roff at the present?

Someone somehow used to post USENET readership statistics in one of the news.* newsgroups.  I think they derived actual readership numbers from some NNTP servers, and then did some reasonable math to come up with total readership.  They would also list top posters for the top lists. Someone with time on their hands might cruise the news.* groups to see if they still post such results. Thomas Gilg

Response:

Someone with time on their hands might cruise the news.* groups to see if they still post such results.

I found: http://metalab.unc.edu/usenetb-bin/to-group.pl?rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Not that I have time on my hands you understand<g. — Charlie…

Response:

Remarq.com, which I use as a free newsreader (hence the stupid phone ad at the bottom of my posts) lists ROFF as having 1958 Threads and 2241 posters. Don’t know how far back that goes nor how many of those posters are various "G" alias’ Cheers, Allen Epps Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Wayne Harrison: … is there any way that you or some other tekkie could roughly determine the number of posters/lurkers on roff at the present? Someone somehow used to post USENET readership statistics in one of the news.* newsgroups.  I think they derived actual readership numbers from some NNTP servers, and then did some reasonable math to come up with total readership.  They would also list top posters for the top lists.

You could make REALLY crude guesstimates, but it would be nearly impossible to get real numbers short of asking every ISP newsprovider to track each of their users and report back. They probably did something like, there are x news providers, with y average users a piece, z% of their users read usenet and then look at the posting amounts of each newsgroup to get some idea of the popularity of various group’s readers. It’s probably a good estimate +-40-50%.      - Ken —     "I was gratified to be able to answer promptly,       and I did.  I said I didn’t know."     — Mark Twain

Response:

Someone with time on their hands might cruise the news.* groups to see if they still post such results. I found: http://metalab.unc.edu/usenetb-bin/to-group.pl?rec.outdoors.fishing.fly

Thanks.  On that site I found their explanation on how the readership is estimated… "Readers      Estimated total number of people who read this group, worldwide      There are two sources of error in this number. The number is      computed by multiplying the number of people in the sample who      actually read the group by the ratio of estimated network size to      sample size. The estimated total can therefore be biased by errors in      the network size estimate (see above) and also by errors in the      determination of whether or not someone reads a group. Assuming that      "reading a group" is roughly the same as "thumbing through a      magazine", in that you don’t necessarily have to read anything, but      you have to browse through it and see what is there, then the      measurement error will come primarily from inability to locate .newsrc      files, which can either be protected or moved out of root directories.      There is no way of measuring the effect on the measurements from      unlocated .newsrc files, but it is not likely to be more than a few      percent of the total news readers. "      - Ken —     "I was gratified to be able to answer promptly,       and I did.  I said I didn’t know."     — Mark Twain

Response:

Someone with time on their hands might cruise the news.* groups to see if they still post such results. I found: http://metalab.unc.edu/usenetb-bin/to-group.pl?rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Not that I have time on my hands you understand<g. — Charlie…

    chocolat, you da king uh da world!  and the source is located in a unc.edu file–unfreaking impeachable! wayno

Response:

Question:

What I was originally opposed to was similar to a librarian saying, "go look in the card catalog it’s got to be there somewhere."  I see a big difference.  Do you?

Thought it was the same thing on both occasions.  The original I was referring to was when someone else posted a link to the source of the info, although not the specific link and got all kinds of flak for it.  Don’t see much difference in it other than the fact that the "librarian" not only gave them the book, but opened it for them to the right page.  Just thought it was kind of funny though. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

What I was originally opposed to was similar to a librarian saying, "go look in the card catalog it’s got to be there somewhere."  I see a big difference.  Do you? Thought it was the same thing on both occasions.  The original I was referring to was when someone else posted a link to the source of the info, although not the specific link and got all kinds of flak for it.  Don’t see much difference in it other than the fact that the librarian" not only gave them the book, but opened it for them to the right page.  Just thought it was kind of funny though.

okay  :-) — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Response:

r the record though, I see a difference between someone telling another where the information is apposed to telling them to go SEARCH for it themselves.  What I did is like a librarian taking someone’s hand and waking them over to a book, opening it, and telling them that their answer is right there as they point to a page.  What I was originally opposed to was similar to a librarian saying, "go look in the card catalog it’s got to be there somewhere."  I see a big difference.  Do you? — Vern

I don’t see any difference, Vern, except that you did it instead of me. Actually my post was quite specific in its instructions, and I had been to the sources and knew that they would be very helpful. Pat K

Response:

Let’s start with the TU web-site and then some others are nice when it come to knots. http://www.tutv.org/html/equipment.html http://globalflyfisher.com/fishbetter/knots/table.htm http://www.f-deans.freeserve.co.uk/knots/knots.htm http://www.steelheader.net/knots/knots.htm Now Vern, that wasn’t nice to do.  You should have drawn diagrams and posted step by step instructions instead of pointing to a web site <g

LOL.  Very funny Warren. Just for the record though, I see a difference between someone telling another where the information is apposed to telling them to go SEARCH for it themselves.  What I did is like a librarian taking someone’s hand and waking them over to a book, opening it, and telling them that their answer is right there as they point to a page.  What I was originally opposed to was similar to a librarian saying, "go look in the card catalog it’s got to be there somewhere."  I see a big difference.  Do you? — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Response:

Let’s start with the TU web-site and then some others are nice when it come to knots. http://www.tutv.org/html/equipment.html http://globalflyfisher.com/fishbetter/knots/table.htm http://www.f-deans.freeserve.co.uk/knots/knots.htm http://www.steelheader.net/knots/knots.htm

Now Vern, that wasn’t nice to do.  You should have drawn diagrams and posted step by step instructions instead of pointing to a web site <g Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

This site has a good description of how to set you rod up and great knot info.  Hope it helps http://www.flyfield.com/davetips.htm. I bought that same rod for my 5 year old son.  He likes it.  You should trash that level line that came with the rod and at least buy a cheap weight forward Scientific Anglers Weight Forward 5 wt floating line for 10 bucks at WallMart.  Your casting will benefit.  When you upgrade you can get premium line at a flyshop.  But the 10 bucks on a WF5F will be well spent. When I started I bought Flyfishing for Dummies.  It was a great help and left nothing to the imagination. Good luck JBB

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

then tried to connect the leader and i am baffled

Several people around here swear by Eagle Claw Leader Links.  If you know how to tie overhand knots you can use a leader link. Mu  

Response:

Alex, good luck getting started in fly fishing.  It is difficult to learn by yourself, but you will find it to be very rewarding and enjoyable.  I don’t know of any sites with knots, but a couple have been given so far.

Let’s start with the TU web-site and then some others are nice when it come to knots. http://www.tutv.org/html/equipment.html http://globalflyfisher.com/fishbetter/knots/table.htm http://www.f-deans.freeserve.co.uk/knots/knots.htm http://www.steelheader.net/knots/knots.htm — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -llo everyone..well i am absolutly new to this whole scene of fly fishing. i am going camping in 3 weeks, and decided to go and buy a new reel and rod for the trip.. low and behold, i ended up buying a fly rod and reel with lines included,, ok I am now finding out that good be kinda tacky, and you get what you pay for..hehe.. but nonetheless i am goinmg to learn this, and i hope and intend to be somewhat successful on my first journey out, then while planning my next adventure, i will upgrade all the nessesary equipment,,, so this is what i got,, a south bend rod and reel, 6 1/2 ft. medium action, line class 4/5,, also got fly line (unsure of the weight, balanced floating?) and a knotless tapered leader 7 1/2 ft. 4x 3 lb test,,and some flies.. so i went to beginners net guide to fly fishing,  I attached my line to the reel ( i hope it is correct, i followed the illustrations), then tried to connect the leader and i am baffled,, so i believe i am looking for some help, and possibly other decent web sights that may be a little more informative,? so thank you for any advise,, even harsh critisism.  :) Alex( the new guy)

Welcome to flyfishing Alex.  The outfit you purchased will get you started anyway and you can catch fish with it.  When you want to upgrade, you will probably want an 8 1//2 to 9ft rod, depending on the type of fishing you will be doing.  Get back to us then for more info.  Re knots, you will need to learn several, but you may already know some of them.  For attatching line to leader, you should learn a nail knot (or some folks use a line connector though its considered less reliable), a double surgeons knot and/or a barrel knot for connecting two leader sections or connecting leader to tippet, and a clinch knot, berkeley knot, or improved clinch for connecting tippet to fly.  For detailed instructions on these knots go to : www.killroys.com/knots/knots.htm. You may also want to take a flycasting class from a local FF shop, so you get started with correct casting technique. Tight Lines, Pat K

Response:

(snip)

Alex, try this url. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/begin/101/ It should give you a lot of good information to begin with.  In fact, it has a lot of good information for people that have been fishing for a while.  It’s simple to follow and find the information you are looking for. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Response:

Alex, good luck getting started in fly fishing.  It is difficult to learn by yourself, but you will find it to be very rewarding and enjoyable.  I don’t know of any sites with knots, but a couple have been given so far.  I too recommend that you go to a fly fishing shop and get some classes on casting and find someone to help teach you out on the water. If you have any more questions feel free to ask away.  There are a lot of people on this ng who have tons of knowledge and are willing to help.  The down side is that they are all at the conclave right now, but a few of us are still here and will help out as much as we can. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Alex, if you bought the rod, reel, and line as an outfit the line should be right for the rod. You need to purchase some tippet material ( 4X & 5X to start)   The tippet would be tied to the end of the leader with a blood knot or surgeon’s knot, and the butt of the leader attatched to the line with a nail knot. I don’t know of a web site that describes these knots, but I’m sure some of the guys on this group do. You really should get a good book on beginning fly fishing. "The Curtis Creek Manifesto" is the one most commonly recommended in this group. With only three weeks until your trip, your best bet would be to seek out a fly fishermen in your area that would be willing to spend a few hours with you to get you started. One aftrenoon with a competent fly fisherman will give you a jump start and will help you better understand what you read in books. If you have any more specific questions, feel free to email me and I’ll help as much as I can. Good luck! George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

hello everyone..well i am absolutly new to this whole scene of fly fishing. i am going camping in 3 weeks, and decided to go and buy a new reel and rod for the trip.. low and behold, i ended up buying a fly rod and reel with lines included,, ok I am now finding out that good be kinda tacky, and you get what you pay for..hehe.. but nonetheless i am goinmg to learn this, and i hope and intend to be somewhat successful on my first journey out, then while planning my next adventure, i will upgrade all the nessesary equipment,,, so this is what i got,, a south bend rod and reel, 6 1/2 ft. medium action, line class 4/5,, also got fly line (unsure of the weight, balanced floating?) and a knotless tapered leader 7 1/2 ft. 4x 3 lb test,,and some flies.. so i went to beginners net guide to fly fishing,  I attached my line to the reel ( i hope it is correct, i followed the illustrations), then tried to connect the leader and i am baffled,, so i believe i am looking for some help, and possibly other decent web sights that may be a little more informative,? so thank you for any advise,, even harsh critisism.  :) Alex( the new guy) * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Question:

Is there such a thing as "the best waders?"  I’m restarting my fly fishing career after 20 years off and am baffled by neoprene vs. breathables vs. canvas etc.  Is there a brand better than another?  Every fly rodder that I’ve spoken with has a different opinion.  The latest is to buy stocking foot breathables from Orvis. Thanks.

Response:

Is there such a thing as "the best waders?"  I’m restarting my fly fishing career after 20 years off and am baffled by neoprene vs. breathables vs. canvas etc.  Is there a brand better than another?  Every fly rodder that I’ve spoken with has a different opinion.  The latest is to buy stocking foot breathables from Orvis. Thanks.

Simms Guide model breathables. — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

writes: Is there such a thing as "the best waders?

The best waders are which ever ones fit your needs and your pocket book. You’re right they’re so many out there and most of them work as promised. If money is not an object, breathables Simms Guide Gortex, LL Bean Gortex or the new tough Orvis ones are supposed to be good. I have had the simms for four seasons now. Not a leak yet, very comfortable in the summer but they were and are pricey. If I wear my breathables over fleece pants, I have yet to have a "cold" problem steelheading. I never plan on wearing my neoprenes again. Wayne Knight Geneva IL                            

Response:

I too am in the process of "gearing up".  After speaking with several individuals, an Orvis salesperson, a BassPro rep, and looking through a plethora of magazines and books, I have concluded the following: 1.    Not all waders are created equal. 2.    If you buy a $10 pair of waders, expect a $10 pair of waders. 3.    NO 2 fly fisherman (or sales people) will answer the same question         with the same (or nearly the same) answer. 4.    Waders are a personal choice based on the following:         A.    Area to be fished (ie; hiking 10miles in 6mm neoprene is                 not the most pleasant experience.)         B.    Seasons fished (15 degrees in 45 degree water is no fun                 in lightweight breathables.)         C.    Price range:  Buy the best you can afford while keeping in                 mind what you are going to use them for. Basically, unless you are comparing two specific products, there are no definitive answers.  Think:  Need, Desire, Use, Price.  When in doubt, take along a fly fisherman you trust and have him/her answer the necessary questions on your behalf. Casting is free therapy!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there such a thing as "the best waders?"  I’m restarting my fly fishing career after 20 years off and am baffled by neoprene vs. breathables vs. canvas etc.  Is there a brand better than another?  Every fly rodder that I’ve spoken with has a different opinion.  The latest is to buy stocking foot breathables from Orvis. Thanks.

Response:

Ditto the previous replies. Except for the coldest, most rugged conditions, the breathables are the best bet. I have Hodgmans, which I love. Go with the ones that fit you best; both your body and your pocketbook! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there such a thing as "the best waders?"  I’m restarting my fly fishing

Response:

Basically, ditto. Breathables are not only the most comfortable thing I’ve worn in the water (besides an occasional big grin) they are absolutely fantastic for travel. They dry overnight and take almost no space at all when they go back into your suitcase for the morning flight. But if you’re only going to fish a couple of times a year, you have to decide whether they are worth the expense. I like Simms. Ken Ft. Lupton, CO – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Is there such a thing as "the best waders? The best waders are which ever ones fit your needs and your pocket book. You’re right they’re so many out there and most of them work as promised. Wayne Knight Geneva IL

Response:

Seems like there are a lot of good vendors out there.  I’ve got some LL Bean waist-high breathable waders which I find fantastically comfortable (I fish a lot of small, freestone streams) and have been very durable.  Waist high works much better than hippers (which invariable are 2" too short) and are much more comfortable in hot weather than chest waders.  I almost never miss the extra height of a chest wader (if it’s that deep, you should be fishing in it, not walking in it). I also have a pair of Orvis Chest High breathable waders, which I would give a miss.  The fabric simply isn’t puncture resistant enough. Michael – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ditto the previous replies. Except for the coldest, most rugged conditions, the breathables are the best bet. I have Hodgmans, which I love. Go with the ones that fit you best; both your body and your pocketbook! Is there such a thing as "the best waders?"  I’m restarting my fly fishing

Response:

______  I use Levi  Waders and they are very breathable.  Cheap, too. Mr. G.

Response:

______  I use Levi  Waders and they are very breathable.  Cheap, too. Mr. G.

Plus if you gotta piss it’s  better’n neoprene, eh George? BA

Response:

______  I use Levi  Waders and they are very breathable.  Cheap, too. Mr. G. Plus if you gotta piss it’s  better’n neoprene, eh George? BA

_______   yep. —

Question:

Uh-Oh…I think someone just turned on the heater it’s starting to get hot in here….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To all sponsoring and/or midwiving the BASTARD: The news surrounding the birth of the BASTARD is nothing short of fantastic. As a fan of split-cane rods, I salute these efforts and think everyone should have the chance to own and fish a properly tooled and crafted cane rod.  So what about the BASTARD?  Does anyone out there really think that a split-cane rod can be produced for $300???!!!  HELLO?!  ARE WE ALL THAT DELUDED??!!?? Cane hex blanks alone wholesale for over $200 and quadrates are double that. But the BASTARDS will be made from cheap cane in a no-nonsense fashion, as if a BLANK has any nonsense. Cheap cane is cheap because it is covered either with water marks or grower’s marks.  I know, I know…the BASTARD aesthetic is not concerned with aesthetics.  But grower’s marks typically go through the enamel and sever the power bundles.  Yes, this effects casting, noticeably.  Really.  Cane costs could be reduced by making one-tip rods, but that cuts the life of the BASTARD in half. What about the tapers?  Initially, it would be easy enough to sell only one taper/length in each line weight; there are plenty of tapers out on the web. But soon customers won’t be so patient.  You’ll need more.  That means taking the time to reset you planing forms and triple-check the depth.  Then you’ll have to test out guide spacing on each different taper.  Time, time. What about tooling?  To put up with the rigors of production, you’ll have to get decent tooling.  Your cheapest tools will be your planing forms (~$800 for one that will last) and planes (at least four; as much as you want them to be, but don’t skimp on the blades).  Don’t forget your beveler and binder which together go for the price of a year’s tuition at an Ivy-league school.  A good depth guage is a car payment.  And don’t forget your wrapper, whipping thread, sock, tube…  To keep costs down I guess you don’t have to worry about the finish, just use tung-oil.  Then you don’t need varnish, dip-tanks, color-preserver, or any of that.  But tung-oil rods *often* won’t last a half of a decade. What about hardware?  Snakes and tip-tops are no big deal, but forget about the agate (or even agatine) stripper.  If you find a good agate stripper for less than $30, then you haven’t found agate. (Doesn’t sound like much, but that’s already 10% of your rod.)  To keep costs down, what’s wrong with SiC? Hook-keepers?  Anyone who’s read Garrison knows that American cane rod-makers don’t use hook-keepers.  It’s called a stripping guide. Yup.  Saved money there.  Reel seats?  Forget fancy, how about alder?  Don’t even get me started on ferrules. If you can somehow get all the above costs diffused through an enormous production run so that they retail for under $500, you still haven’t paid you labor.  Even if it’s a labor force of one, Mr. G, he’ll need to eat once in a while.  Hobbyists can finish a cane rod in about 40-50 man-hours.  Custom rods from the 30 or so who make cane rods for a living (full-time) take about 80-100 man-hours.  These folks probably want to charge a little more than minimum wage. There are reasons that cane rods cost as much as they do, and there are reasons that the many attempts to produce low-cost cane rods in the last 30 years have failed.  What you get in a properly made and well-crafted cane rod is not only a superior fishing instrument, but a piece of American history. The cane-rod industry is one of the last in this country that consists of independent artisans who apprentice under masters and continue to improve upon the tradition.  If you read up on the history of cane-rods you’ll notice that even though split-cane and greenheart originated in the UK, the modern tradition of split-cane rods is American and any reputable rod-maker can trace his apprenticeship back to a 19th century master.  Yes, they still cost a lot, but if you ever talk to a full-time rod-maker (at the FFF or somewhere) you’ll see that no one gets rich making rods, they do because they love it. And finally…Is there a real difference between cane and graphite or glass? Well, is there a difference between an Aston-Martin and a Geo?  or is there a difference between Night Train and the Famous Grouse?  Both cars will get you where you want to go and both drinks will eventually get you drunk, but I guess it depends on how you want to get there.  Maybe a better analogy is shaving with garden-shears or a straight razor.  One is clumsy and potentially painful and the other, with a little practice, is an instrument of precision and tradition that is a pleasure to use and surpasses all. If you decide to get a split-cane rod, get the right one for the right reasons.  Don’t get any old BASTARD because it is cheap.  Perhaps the BASTARD will be the rod that will change the ff-ing world.  Perhaps not.  But at least talk to a cane rod-maker (check out the cane Rodmakers page at http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htm) to see what kind of rod they can make you and what their rods can do over a production rod. Oh, but I doubt any of of those rodmakers would be able to seel you a Marryat reel.  Tough luck. The Tonkin Kid

Response:

To all sponsoring and/or midwiving the BASTARD:

and George began his reply: ______ That is me, "tonkin kid".  Talk to me.  I’m the man.  I’m the uno numeruno Bastard you need to address yourself too.  Now then?  You were saying?

(remainder of repartee snipped, in my never-ceasing attempt to save band-width) Go get’em George.  We can’t have these blithering naysayers ruining our fun. Mark Faulkner

Response:

‘kid,’ is licking his wounds.  He will heal though and will come back to try to learn  more about us. O.G.O

Response:

Tonkin Kid, I think you should change your name to "The Foolium Kid". 1. Do you know what the price of a bundle of Tonkin cane is. 2. Do you know the average number of good culms in a bundle of Tonkin cane? 3. Do you know how many rods with extra tips can be built with one culm? 4. Do you know how many strips a man using power tools can plain in a day? 5. Do you know how many blanks one man can finish in a day? 4. Do you know what the mark up is on a bamboo rod? I don’t know where you buy your hardware and materials but you won’t ever find me there.  I have seen figures just like yours trying to justify the cost of graphite rods also, but you should peddle your foolium elsewhere, I am not in the market. Ernie Harrison

Response:

To all sponsoring and/or midwiving the BASTARD: The news surrounding the birth of the BASTARD is nothing short of fantastic. As a fan of split-cane rods, I salute these efforts and think everyone should have the chance to own and fish a properly tooled and crafted cane rod.  So what about the BASTARD?  Does anyone out there really think that a split-cane rod can be produced for $300???!!!  HELLO?!  ARE WE ALL THAT DELUDED??!!?? Cane hex blanks alone wholesale for over $200 and quadrates are double that. But the BASTARDS will be made from cheap cane in a no-nonsense fashion, as if a BLANK has any nonsense.   Cheap cane is cheap because it is covered either with water marks or grower’s marks.  I know, I know…the BASTARD aesthetic is not concerned with aesthetics.  But grower’s marks typically go through the enamel and sever the power bundles.  Yes, this effects casting, noticeably.  Really.  Cane costs could be reduced by making one-tip rods, but that cuts the life of the BASTARD in half. What about the tapers?  Initially, it would be easy enough to sell only one taper/length in each line weight; there are plenty of tapers out on the web. But soon customers won’t be so patient.  You’ll need more.  That means taking the time to reset you planing forms and triple-check the depth.  Then you’ll have to test out guide spacing on each different taper.  Time, time. What about tooling?  To put up with the rigors of production, you’ll have to get decent tooling.  Your cheapest tools will be your planing forms (~$800 for one that will last) and planes (at least four; as much as you want them to be, but don’t skimp on the blades).  Don’t forget your beveler and binder which together go for the price of a year’s tuition at an Ivy-league school.  A good depth guage is a car payment.  And don’t forget your wrapper, whipping thread, sock, tube…  To keep costs down I guess you don’t have to worry about the finish, just use tung-oil.  Then you don’t need varnish, dip-tanks, color-preserver, or any of that.  But tung-oil rods *often* won’t last a half of a decade. What about hardware?  Snakes and tip-tops are no big deal, but forget about the agate (or even agatine) stripper.  If you find a good agate stripper for less than $30, then you haven’t found agate. (Doesn’t sound like much, but that’s already 10% of your rod.)  To keep costs down, what’s wrong with SiC? Hook-keepers?  Anyone who’s read Garrison knows that American cane rod-makers don’t use hook-keepers.  It’s called a stripping guide. Yup.  Saved money there.  Reel seats?  Forget fancy, how about alder?  Don’t even get me started on ferrules. If you can somehow get all the above costs diffused through an enormous production run so that they retail for under $500, you still haven’t paid you labor.  Even if it’s a labor force of one, Mr. G, he’ll need to eat once in a while.  Hobbyists can finish a cane rod in about 40-50 man-hours.  Custom rods from the 30 or so who make cane rods for a living (full-time) take about 80-100 man-hours.  These folks probably want to charge a little more than minimum wage. There are reasons that cane rods cost as much as they do, and there are reasons that the many attempts to produce low-cost cane rods in the last 30 years have failed.  What you get in a properly made and well-crafted cane rod is not only a superior fishing instrument, but a piece of American history. The cane-rod industry is one of the last in this country that consists of independent artisans who apprentice under masters and continue to improve upon the tradition.  If you read up on the history of cane-rods you’ll notice that even though split-cane and greenheart originated in the UK, the modern tradition of split-cane rods is American and any reputable rod-maker can trace his apprenticeship back to a 19th century master.  Yes, they still cost a lot, but if you ever talk to a full-time rod-maker (at the FFF or somewhere) you’ll see that no one gets rich making rods, they do because they love it. And finally…Is there a real difference between cane and graphite or glass? Well, is there a difference between an Aston-Martin and a Geo?  or is there a difference between Night Train and the Famous Grouse?  Both cars will get you where you want to go and both drinks will eventually get you drunk, but I guess it depends on how you want to get there.  Maybe a better analogy is shaving with garden-shears or a straight razor.  One is clumsy and potentially painful and the other, with a little practice, is an instrument of precision and tradition that is a pleasure to use and surpasses all. If you decide to get a split-cane rod, get the right one for the right reasons.  Don’t get any old BASTARD because it is cheap.  Perhaps the BASTARD will be the rod that will change the ff-ing world.  Perhaps not.  But at least talk to a cane rod-maker (check out the cane Rodmakers page at http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htm) to see what kind of rod they can make you and what their rods can do over a production rod. Oh, but I doubt any of of those rodmakers would be able to seel you a Marryat reel.  Tough luck.   The Tonkin Kid

Response:

To all sponsoring and/or midwiving the BASTARD:

______ That is me, "tonkin kid".  Talk to me.  I’m the man.  I’m the uno numeruno Bastard you need to address yourself too.  Now then?  You were saying? Oh?  By the way – Refer to me from now on as "O.G.O." The news surrounding the birth of the BASTARD is nothing short of fantastic.

As a fan of split-cane rods, I salute these efforts and think everyone should have the chance to own and fish a properly tooled and crafted cane rod.  So what about the BASTARD?

dense quality Imported Just For this bastard. Does anyone out there really think that a split-cane rod can be produced for $300???!!!

HELLO?!  ARE WE ALL THAT DELUDED??!!??

Cane hex blanks alone wholesale for over $200 and quadrates are double that.

But the BASTARDS will be made from cheap cane in a no-nonsense fashion, as if a BLANK has any nonsense.

more careful on who you’re talking too here ‘tonkin kid’.  Is that it?  "Tonkin Kid?"  Are you saying you have the market cornered on cheap bamboo?  Sorry.  We don’t want any. Cheap cane is cheap because it is covered either with water marks or grower’s marks.  I know, I know…the BASTARD aesthetic is not concerned with aesthetics.

BASTARD BAMBOO FLY ROD.  This fly fishing world is ready for a Beautiful Bastard – and this is it.  In fact, you’re beginning to qualify for one. But grower’s marks typically go through the enamel and sever the power bundles.  Yes, this effects casting, noticeably.  Really.  Cane costs could be reduced by making one-tip rods, but that cuts the life of the BASTARD in half.

equate your kind of foolishness with a high quality BASTARD FLY ROD.  "Don’t Tread On Me Dude"  Just might become a Bastard Model.  Thank goodness, nothing you’ve said so far applies to a BASTARD FLY ROD.  "Half Life," looks more promising to the "tonkin kid," buddy.  Where do you get off making such outlandish statements and lies?  Do you work for Bill Clinton? What about the tapers?

Initially, it would be easy enough to sell only one taper/length in each line weight; there are plenty of tapers out on the web.

But soon customers won’t be so patient.

You’ll need more.  That means taking the time to reset you planing forms and triple-check the depth.  Then you’ll have to test out guide spacing on each different taper.  Time, time.

BASTARD BAMBOO FLY ROD.  Like I said.  I’m rich. What about tooling?  To put up with the rigors of production, you’ll have to get decent tooling.

tooling is the best in the world.  Do you want to come and work for me? Your cheapest tools will be your planing forms (~$800 for one that will last) and planes (at least four; as much as you want them to be, but don’t skimp on the blades).  Don’t forget your beveler and binder which together go for the price of a year’s tuition at an Ivy-league school.  A good depth guage is a car payment.  And don’t forget your wrapper, whipping thread, sock, tube…  To keep costs down I guess you don’t have to worry about the finish, just use tung-oil.  Then you don’t need varnish, dip-tanks, color-preserver, or any of that.  But tung-oil rods *often* won’t last a half of a decade.

shop.  Everything is free except raw materials.  You need to get your planing forms from someone that doesn’t screw you all the time, kid.  It was "kid" – right? What about hardware?  Snakes and tip-tops are no big deal, but forget about the agate (or even agatine) stripper.  If you find a good agate stripper for less than $30, then you haven’t found agate. (Doesn’t sound like much, but that’s already 10% of your rod.)  To keep costs down, what’s wrong with SiC? Hook-keepers?  Anyone who’s read Garrison knows that American cane rod-makers don’t use hook-keepers.  It’s called a stripping guide. Yup.  Saved money there.  Reel seats?  Forget fancy, how about alder?  Don’t even get me started on ferrules.

have too but, I will admit I’d rather just buy them ready made.  You’re down to nickle/dime stuff.  Hardware.  No mystery in hardware.  If we can’t buy it at a price that is fair, we will make it right here. Kid, you just don’t know what the hell  you’re talking about.  If we can build it cheaper, guess what the choice is going to be? If you can somehow get all the above costs diffused through an enormous production run so that they retail for under $500, you still haven’t paid you labor.  Even if it’s a labor force of one, Mr. G, he’ll need to eat once in a while.  Hobbyists can finish a cane rod in about 40-50 man-hours.  Custom rods from the 30 or so who make cane rods for a living (full-time) take about 80-100 man-hours.  These folks probably want to charge a little more than minimum wage.

person operation.  Automation on as much as is possible is guaranteed.  Those ‘full time’ rod makers have to cut the vacations and coffee breaks pal. I just love it when all these losers keep equating how others should run their businesses.  Has anyone latched onto that yet?  "Welllllllll?"  They think.  If it takes ME 100 hours to make a bamboo fly rod, that means its going to take you 100 hours too." wrong! There are reasons that cane rods cost as much as they do, and there are reasons that the many attempts to produce low-cost cane rods in the last 30 years have failed.  What you get in a properly made and well-crafted cane rod is not only a superior fishing instrument, but a piece of American history. The cane-rod industry is one of the last in this country that consists of independent artisans who apprentice under masters and continue to improve upon the tradition.  If you read up on the history of cane-rods you’ll notice that even though split-cane and greenheart originated in the UK, the modern tradition of split-cane rods is American and any reputable rod-maker can trace his apprenticeship back to a 19th century master.  Yes, they still cost a lot, but if you ever talk to a full-time rod-maker (at the FFF or somewhere) you’ll see that no one gets rich making rods, they do because they love it.

BASTARDS. And finally…Is there a real difference between cane and graphite or glass?

_______Well, gee?  I don’t know?  Is there a difference between land and water? The moon and the sun?  Your wife as compared to mine?  Golfing in the middle of a street and a fairway?  You tell us kid.  This is a heavy question. Well, is there a difference between an Aston-Martin and a Geo?  or is there a difference between Night Train and the Famous Grouse?  Both cars will get you where you want to go and both drinks will eventually get you drunk, but I guess it depends on how you want to get there.  Maybe a better analogy is shaving with garden-shears or a straight razor.  One is clumsy and potentially painful and the other, with a little practice, is an instrument of precision and tradition that is a pleasure to use and surpasses all.

qualified.  Park it dude.  Your engine is racing but your tires are standing still.  All this has NOTHING to do with   BASTARD FLY RODS.  You have not one, single, base point to stand on.  You are just (to be perfectly frank) a baseless opinion.  A noise.  A silent fart in church.  You are way off base on nearly everything.  But!  That is okay.  We get them like you here all the time.  We just need to soften you up a little and get you drunk a time or two.  We might even teach you how to be a success.  Here, anything is possible.  Even for you kid. If you decide to get a split-cane rod, get the right one for the right reasons.  Don’t get any old BASTARD because it is cheap.

pine tree all the time?  Just LISTEN to yourself!  Quote:  "Don’t get any old BASTARD because it is cheap."  Well, there are no other BASTARDS and these are not old.  Right away, you make yourself out an idiot of principle, ‘kid’. This also isn’t ANY old BASTARD.  That is another mistake.  It is my BASTARD FLY ROD COMPANY and you have NO RIGHT to say or ASSUME the things you’re doing here . . . kid. (God, I love this place!) Perhaps the BASTARD

‘hope’ for ‘the kid.’  What do you guys think?  Is he or is not ‘the kid’ qualifying as a real bastard who should own a bastard? will be the rod that will change the ff-ing world.

life.  How do we know?  Because you’re HERE!  It is everyone’s pleasure to meet a cynic such as  yourself.  You

… read more »

Response:

Question:

 I’m curious about the Cabelas Dry Plus – the article implied that the neoprene feet are too thin and will invite leaks. Has anyone had a problem with this? Sam

I have used the Cabelas Dry Plus waders for a year now and I have not had any problems. I tend to do a lot of walking when out on the stream and they have held up great. They have neoprene knee pads which is nice.  They also come with a patch kit that includes the same material that the waders are made out of. If you get a leak you just iron this material into the waders – kind of melts together on the inside. Good luck, Greg

Response:

Thanks to everyone for the replies. I picked up the article on breathable waders in Fly Rod and Reel, and it was pretty informative. As always, there’s a tradeoff – between breathability, durability, and price. Find a match for any two of the variables and it might not match the third one. According to the article, Orvis Clearwaters sound the best for breathability/price but sacrifice puncture resistance. (But the warranty is nice.) The Hodgemans sounded like a good deal in that price range also. I’m curious about the Cabelas Dry Plus – the article implied that the neoprene feet are too thin and will invite leaks. Has anyone had a problem with this? Sam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There appears to be two typesof breathable waders; the gortex at $300 plus, and the Orvis type, now carried by many companies, at $129 to $160.  Orvis was first out with these they were mostly a dark green color.  I had a pair that worked fine until I lent them to my wife.  Then they developed  three holes in the seat.  Orvis replaced them free of charge.  LL Bean carries them and they guarantee there goods  beyond most companies. I liked them but they are too cold for float tubing, even with long underwear. JackKowalski e t… Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

Response:

There is an article on breathable waders in the current issue of "Fly Rod & Reel".  They seemed to be most impressed with the Hodgman’s of the Cabela’s, Hodgman’s and Orvis. JS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – test t… Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

Response:

very well made. writes: I’m wondering how well they’d hold up when float tubing. I won’t be doing a whole lot of float tubing, but I wonder whether I should get a cheap pair of neoprenes for the purpose. They hold up well. Wayne Knight Geneva IL

Response:

1) Where can I find Orvis Clearwaters for $129? I have only seen them at the listed $165.

There is an ad in this month’s Fly Fisherman.  It seems that Orvis has had an "official" price reduction on the Clearwater Breathable.  All Orvis dealers should now be honoring this price.

Response:

Anyone try the new Redington breatheable waders? I’ve seen them in a catalog only but they sound like a great deal. Four year unconditional warranty and $169. I’d like to see how they compare to the really expensive Simms. Thanks Michael L – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

Response:

I’m wondering how well they’d hold up when float tubing. I won’t be doing a whole lot of float tubing, but I wonder whether I should get a cheap pair of neoprenes for the purpose.

They hold up well. Wayne Knight Geneva IL                            

Response:

I, too, have been considering entry level breathable waders.  In addition to the Hodgeman, Cabela’s and Orvis Clearwater, I am considering the LL Bean Streamlight Breathable Stockingfoot waders. Several comments/questions I have to Bill Kiene and others: 1) Where can I find Orvis Clearwaters for $129? I have only seen them at the listed $165.

Unicoi Outfitters in Helen, GA  had them at $129 when I was up there yesterday. — Charlie…

Response:

There appears to be two typesof breathable waders; the gortex at $300 plus, and the Orvis type, now carried by many companies, at $129 to $160.  Orvis was first out with these they were mostly a dark green color.  I had a pair that worked fine until I lent them to my wife.  Then they developed  three holes in the seat.  Orvis replaced them free of charge.  LL Bean carries them and they guarantee there goods  beyond most companies. I liked them but they are too cold for float tubing, even with long underwear. JackKowalski

t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

Response:

test t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

Response:

I am excited that breathables will be coming down in price, but our top selling

Jeez Bill, at $349.00 those Simms Guide Models had better guide me to some VERY nice holes! 8^} — To reply, please remove "hormel" from my address.  Diapers and politicians should be changed regularly,  often for the same reason.

Response:

I, too, have been considering entry level breathable waders.  In addition to the Hodgeman, Cabela’s and Orvis Clearwater, I am considering the LL Bean Streamlight Breathable Stockingfoot waders. Several comments/questions I have to Bill Kiene and others: 1) Where can I find Orvis Clearwaters for $129? I have only seen them at the listed $165. 2) I like the Orvis and LL Bean models because they come in both men’s and women’s cuts/sizes.  When I buy, I plan to get two pair; one for myself and one for my wife. 3) I am concerned about the lack of knee protection (for we clumsy) on the Clearwater and Hodgeman waders.  Orvis, of course, has the excellent warranty.  But both the Cabela’s and the Streamlight waders have reinforced knees and LL Bean’s warranty is even better. I am only trying to get more information to make a decision.  Any and all comments would be appreciated. Jonathan Williamson

Response:

I am excited that breathables will be coming down in price, but our top selling Jeez Bill, at $349.00 those Simms Guide Models had better guide me to some VERY nice holes! 8^}

I’m planning to buy a pair of Simms. (Fortunately, I can get them wholesale). I’m wondering how well they’d hold up when float tubing. I won’t be doing a whole lot of float tubing, but I wonder whether I should get a cheap pair of neoprenes for the purpose. — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

Response:

Here’s yet another equipment question: This topic has probably been covered here previously, but I’m looking for a breathable wader for hot spring/fall fishing in the Southwest. Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make a breathable wader in the $160 price range. Does anyone have any feedback they could give me about quality of these two, how well they’ve held up over time, etc? Thanks, Sam

Hi Sam, I am sure that Hodgeman and Cabela’s both make good waders and stand behind them, but Orvis has the hottest deal on entry level breathables( anything under $200) Their Clearwater stocking foot breathable chest waders come with a neoprene foot and suspenders for $129. They also have a prorated 4 year warranty. I am excited that breathables will be coming down in price, but our top selling Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

Question:

A lawn is a good place to learn, just cast the line without a leader or hook..

Hi Ernie, I agree about the lawn(or a decent sized patch of grass) being a good place to learn, but I believe a leader of about 8-9 ft in length with a tiny bit of cotton wool instead of a fly, balances up the line nicely. — Bill

Response:

I’ve been reading a lot about fly fishing; so I’m ready to hit the water. But what I’m still not sure of is how do I get the line out before the cast,especially when I’m fishing stillwaters, or want to fish cross current on a river. Thanks Randy Kadish Go to the Sports section of the following site. Several good videos

on fly fishing. Good Luck http://www.totalmarketing.com

Response:

go back to the library and check out some instructional videos on flyfishing….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been reading a lot about fly fishing; so I’m ready to hit the water. But what I’m still not sure of is how do I get the line out before the cast,especially when I’m fishing stillwaters, or want to fish cross current on a river. Thanks Randy Kadish

Response:

tie on some kind of leader…that gets down in diameter once or twice…will give you the light end section that’ll help more than the dead pull of the line ..(too heavy). steve d.

Response:

A lawn is a good place to learn, just cast the line without a leader or hook.. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NB beginners usually find it much easier to learn on running rather than still water, because you need the line straight(ish) for the pickup for the next cast, and the current straightens it for you. I disagree. With the current going, it was hellish for me trying to keep the line worked, the cast out of the trees, the fly on the leader, the line that had been stripped our of the current, and staying upright all at the same time, and I was on a slow, large creek. So, I’d say that you should try to find a farm pond before you venture to the river. Bryce Carron Rockford, Tn

Response:

I’ve been reading a lot about fly fishing; so I’m ready to hit the water. But what I’m still not sure of is how do I get the line out before the cast,especially when I’m fishing stillwaters, or want to fish cross current on a river. Thanks Randy Kadish

Response:

I’ve been reading a lot about fly fishing; so I’m ready to hit the water. But what I’m still not sure of is how do I get the line out before the cast,especially when I’m fishing stillwaters, or want to fish cross current on a river.

Start with 10-12 ft. of line beyond the tip-top.  You can roll-cast that to aerialize it, then add about 5 ft. per false cast, stripping more off the reel with your line hand on each back cast. NB beginners usually find it much easier to learn on running rather than still water, because you need the line straight(ish) for the pickup for the next cast, and the current straightens it for you. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

NB beginners usually find it much easier to learn on running rather than still water, because you need the line straight(ish) for the pickup for the next cast, and the current straightens it for you.

I disagree. With the current going, it was hellish for me trying to keep the line worked, the cast out of the trees, the fly on the leader, the line that had been stripped our of the current, and staying upright all at the same time, and I was on a slow, large creek. So, I’d say that you should try to find a farm pond before you venture to the river. Bryce Carron Rockford, Tn

Response:

Question:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ?   Really ?

What would anyone do with a ’starving’ fish –  bury it in their garden to fertilize the tomatoes? Feed it to the cat? Cat might not eat it! Ralph H

Response:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ?   Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO.

Tim, that was clearly a sarcastic remark in as short a form as I could provide, in response to this totally contrived troll of yours (which didn’t merit the response you would like to have received)… Yours is a tiresome routine – starting one thread after another all aimed at repeating your philosphy ad nauseum – and self-sanctified as being preferable to more civilized/less contentious topics of discussion… To what ends, I ask? Frankly I’m surprised you have any time left to actually fish – if you actually *do* fish… /dave

Response:

For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul Marriner

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW.

Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ?  Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases.   I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’.   Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature.  A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning.  The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases.  The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW

Response:

Fish have to dash away from predators all the time; they have energy stores that help them deal with that. Trout, steelhead and salmon go through frequent and often lengthy periods when they feed little or not at all. You’d have us believe that a "sprint around the block" followed by a fast lasting a few hours will lead to death by starvation.

But… When you’re fishing a hatch, you play the fish buring one of those *brief* periods when food is abundant.  If the sprint around the block is always at diinertime, and the food is gone by the time you return, it can add up. I’m not saying, "don’t fish," I’m just saying that there are impacts involved in c&r, just like any style of fishing.   (Besides, during a heavy hatch, it can be a lot of fun to lean the rod against a tree and watch the fish work, without trying to catch them. Can improve your fishing, too.) CQ

Response:

A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?  I mean, you’re more likely to find a selective fish in some rich, artificial tailwater than you are in a high-county lake or stream, aren’t you?  

Not when a hatch is on.  High country fish can be very selective then. It makes sense for a trout to become selective when mayflies are hatching because it’s a temporary abundance.   The nymphs, baitfish, et al, will still be there after the hatch is over. CQ

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ?  Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases.   I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’.   Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature.  A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning.  The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases.  The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW

Sorry Tim I think this little bit of work from your imagination is a clunker. But then nobody bats 100. I posted my reponses previously so won’t repeat them. hope you don’t mind me asking but did you base this on any study or work that shows fish in those alpine streams you fish are so stressed by lack of food? BTW a fish with a big head and small body isn’t starving it’s just lean like a marathon runner or a cheetah. Starving fish have shrunken concave bellies. You wouldn’t want to eat one either. Ralph H

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ?  Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases.   I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’.   Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature.  A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning.  The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases.  The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW

Sorry time but IMO this work from your imagination is a clunker. I’ve posted my responses elsewhere and won’t repeat them. However let me ask did you base this post on any kind of study on the alpine streams in your area that indicated the fish were so stressed by lack of food? BTW a fish with a big head and small body isn’t starving; it’s just lean like a marathon runner or a cheetah. Starving fish have concave shrunken bellies. You wouldn’t want to eat one either. Ralph H

Response:

: That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish.   : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?   I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways. JonCook.

Response:

A guy who works in a fly shop just told me this evening about a guy who said he played a steelhead for 3 and a half hours.  I asked him how big it was and he told me the guy claimed 8 pounds.  Slightly less than a

Good Grief!  What kind of rod could he have been using.  I have landed steelhead this size on a 4 wt. rod in less than 20 minutes.  Three and a half hours is torture! -Burton

Response:

While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot… I have taken the liberty of changing the thread title for you, if you want a serious discussion of the mine possibility and its detriment. This is a different thread… TimW

 Nah…I just wanted to remind you that there are bigger fish to fry.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish. : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways.

Ok then.  What I am hearing… Our [flyfishermen's] definition of the ethics of catch and release… "We may cause indiscriminate harm to a wild animal, so long as the animal does not normally  die as a result, in our search for happiness.  Our metric will only include mortality and  will not include incidental suffering or non-fatal injury" Or, something like that… I laugh at our free usage of the term ‘respect’ for a wild animal.  It is really, really laughable (if it weren’t so sad).   Wham !!! Set the Hook !!!! Wham, Lay the rod into it !! she’s runnin’ for the rapids…then this thoughtful ‘respectful’ release…sometimes with an accompanying little kiss on the lips.  Respect ?  I don’t think so.  Cause for self-congratulation, perhaps. TimW

Response:

While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot…

Finally the real meat of the issues. Isn’t it time we humans get a little more ,NO! a lot more involve with the issues of rectifying and push for the preservation of our current watersheds. When their all gone who will be there to make new ones? The issues may vary from state to state, but they are the sum of all the parts. Trout are a good indicator for water quality and the quality of life to which we an ultimately attached. Seems to me that a new thread needs to be started here. Our fingers are dancing on the very tools that could start a very positive movement. What do you say guys? How about it, Tim, George, and Al? On another sad note, my ISP really sucks and I only receive less than half of the news posting and feel like a mushroom on lost thread portions. If anybody felt like CC me on your postings I would sure appreciate it. — Doug Knight                           metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $50.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ? Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO. Tim, that was clearly a sarcastic remark in as short a form as I could provide, in response to this totally contrived troll of yours (which didn’t merit the response you would like to have received)… Yours is a tiresome routine – starting one thread after another all aimed at repeating your philosphy ad nauseum – and self-sanctified as being preferable to more civilized/less contentious topics of discussion… To what ends, I ask?

I’ll be happy when the popularity of the sport subsides by say, 80%.  I’ll be patting myself on the back all the way down to the deep run behind Pat’s rock, which will be devoid of people and clogged with fish. TimW

Response:

While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot… I have taken the liberty of changing the thread title for you, if you want a serious discussion of the mine possibility and its detriment. This is a different thread… TimW

OK Tim, You were reading my mind. What are we playing with here, threads, fish, or environmental action? Isn’t it time we all get involved. Where do I sign up? It’s time to give something back. Please make note to CC, my ISP really sucks. — Doug Knight                           metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $50.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

Response:

Tim pardon me but this is vapour ware to the nth degree. You’re expounding proifically on a hypothetical situation about which nothing is known. Fish have to dash away from predators all the time; they have energy stores that help them deal with that. Trout, steelhead and salmon go through frequent and often lengthy periods when they feed little or not at all. You’d have us believe that a "sprint around the block" followed by a fast lasting a few hours will lead to death by starvation. If you’re going to fabricate something please at least make it credible and believable. from Your Biggest fan Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.  It is important that the energy expended to consume an insect must not exceed the energy gained by this insects consumption. It is tough row to hoe for a fish eating this minutae.  What percentage of fish even make it to this stage ? Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation.  Bingo.  Fish On.  The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ? Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? TimW

Response:

The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.  

A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?  I mean, you’re more likely to find a selective fish in some rich, artificial tailwater than you are in a high-county lake or stream, aren’t you?   Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation.  Bingo.  Fish On.  The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ?

(I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ?

It seems like the folks fishing the rich tailwaters are more likely to be using too light of a rod for the fish that live there, so the benefit of plentiful food could be offset by the fish being played way longer than it should have been.  It may die anyway. The starving fish in the sterile alpine creek can’t be underpowered, but there is hardly any food for it to eat once it’s released. What?   If it was an overcrowded stream, you’re right.  If there are so many fish in the creek that the one you just caught is starving, kill and eat it.   That population sounds like it needs to be thinned, in my no-expert opinion.  A lot of the higher streams I’ve fished have what seem to be normal numbers of fish – they are healthy, active, and not swarming all over each other.  I’d imagine that at least some of them have native fish, and they *are* all wild fish.  There seems to be plenty of food. The only fish I’ll take out of a small, highish creek around here are brook trout or the rare brown; no cutts or rainbows.  I don’t feel bad about that, because these fish aren’t monsters and they are generally not starving.  The fight is quick and one-sided, and they are undoubtedly more stunned than exhausted when it’s over.  Of any trout, these are the ones I like to lay eyes on the most.  C&K seems like a bad idea to have catch on when it comes to these streams.   If you fish a heavier rod while practicing C&R, you release a healthier fish but probably shouldn’t call it ’sport.’  If you fish a really light, sporting rod; play the trout for ten minutes; kill, keep, and eat it, you have a fish that tastes bad. I don’t call what I do with those little cutts and redsides ’sport,’ and the brook trout I keep are delicious. The part of C&R that bugs me is hearing of 15# steelhead caught on four-weight rigs, people fishing for huge trout with two-weights, etc.   Small, alpine trout are probably bothered by C&R the least, and they are the ones that need it the most.  In my opinion. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TimW

Response:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ?

No.

Response:

The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom. I don’t get it.  Why would it be better for a trout to concentrate on midges and ignore a juicy sculpin, as long as it was big enough to eat one?

because the midges are abundant thr fish gains more calories than it expends by feeding exclusively on midges and ignoring the sculpin. It’s a hypothesis used to explain selectivity Also, why would the fish have to concentrate if there was a lot of food in the water?  Isn’t that where the phrase ‘easy pickins’ comes from?  You don’t mean that trout are easily confused, do you?!?

It’s not my idea. No I don’t mean they are confused. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat  swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying. You’re right, that didn’t make any sense.  It’s the stored glycogen in the muscle that they use up so fast.  The book I just checked that in claims that the white muscle used for burst speed may take up to 18 hours to get rid of the lactic acid that results from the gas-guzzling, while the muscles used for regular, sustained swimming do it in an hour or less.   So you probably can’t compare swimming vs. fighting fish and then say that there isn’t any truth to what Tim Walker was saying. Also, salmon are making a one-way trip.  They don’t have to budget their energy, really.  I wouln’t be supprised at all to hear that salmon use more energy trying to get over a single tough falls than a typical trout does in a month of dodging predators, but the salmon probably dies sooner for doing it.

Salmon don’t always make a one way trip. Atlantics and steelhead usually return to the sea. Also salmon don’t stare to death they are genetically programed to die after spawning. Some stocks that are as sea fat as other go only a few yrds above tide water. Pacific salmon die of multiple organ failure that can’t simply be explain by starvation. Also genetically they can make the switch from salt to fresh water only once. The die off could be an adaption to transfer rich ocean nutrients to their native streams and enhance their offsprings chances for survival. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out. That’s true.  It’s strange that some of the more obviously-overcrowded lakes that I’ve seen are also shallow.  If any lake was going to winter-kill, it seems like they’d be the ones. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. Ralph H

Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No.

You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ?  Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO. TimW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish. : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways. JonCook.

While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot…

Response:

The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom.

I don’t get it.  Why would it be better for a trout to concentrate on midges and ignore a juicy sculpin, as long as it was big enough to eat one?  Also, why would the fish have to concentrate if there was a lot of food in the water?  Isn’t that where the phrase ‘easy pickins’ comes from?  You don’t mean that trout are easily confused, do you?!? (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat  swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying.

You’re right, that didn’t make any sense.  It’s the stored glycogen in the muscle that they use up so fast.  The book I just checked that in claims that the white muscle used for burst speed may take up to 18 hours to get rid of the lactic acid that results from the gas-guzzling, while the muscles used for regular, sustained swimming do it in an hour or less.   So you probably can’t compare swimming vs. fighting fish and then say that there isn’t any truth to what Tim Walker was saying. Also, salmon are making a one-way trip.  They don’t have to budget their energy, really.  I wouln’t be supprised at all to hear that salmon use more energy trying to get over a single tough falls than a typical trout does in a month of dodging predators, but the salmon probably dies sooner for doing it. if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out.

That’s true.  It’s strange that some of the more obviously-overcrowded lakes that I’ve seen are also shallow.  If any lake was going to winter-kill, it seems like they’d be the ones. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ralph H

Response:

Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  

A guy who works in a fly shop just told me this evening about a guy who said he played a steelhead for 3 and a half hours.  I asked him how big it was and he told me the guy claimed 8 pounds.  Slightly less than a half hour a pound… Phil

Response:

A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?  

The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom. You’re right a starving fish is unlikley to be selective. (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.)

what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat  swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying. very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out.

if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It seems like the folks fishing the rich tailwaters are more likely to be using too light of a rod for the fish that live there, so the benefit of plentiful food could be offset by the fish being played way longer than it should have been.  It may die anyway. The starving fish in the sterile alpine creek can’t be underpowered, but there is hardly any food for it to eat once it’s released. What?   [snip] The part of C&R that bugs me is hearing of 15# steelhead caught on four-weight rigs, people fishing for huge trout with two-weights, etc.

This bugs me too and I think many have pushed the light tackle envelope too far, way too far. Small, alpine trout are probably bothered by C&R the least, and they are the ones that need it the most.  In my opinion. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or.

Ralph H

Response:

The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.  It is important that the energy expended to consume an insect must not exceed the energy gained by this insects consumption. It is tough row to hoe for a fish eating this minutae.  What percentage of fish even make it to this stage ? Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation.  Bingo.  Fish On.  The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ? Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? TimW

Response:

Question:

I just moved to Los Angeles from Pennsylvania, where I’d be flyfishing for trout every weekend. I’m looking for suggestions for the closest stream to LA where I catch some west coast trout. Thanks. —

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I just moved to Los Angeles from Pennsylvania, where I’d be flyfishing for trout every weekend. I’m looking for suggestions for the closest stream to LA where I catch some west coast trout. Thanks. —

If you like lake fishing, there are many around that have stocked fish, incl. Castaic and Piru, north off 5 about 1 hr. If you like big rivers with wild fish–like the Madison–you’re out of luck.   If you like small streams with small wild rainbows and occaisional browns, use this formula: ANY stream in the San Gabriel or San Bernardino Mountains that runs year ’round has them.  Get out a map, explore and remember two rules of thumb:  For maximum fishing pleasure, DON’T fish on the weekends; but if you have to fish weekends, get as far from other people as possible by hiking. You might want to try the East Fork of the San Gabriel River above Azusa off Hwy. 39.  If you get back in a few miles you might be able to get away from most everyone else.  (The West Fork is a C&R wild trout area, but they ave been working on the dam upstream; when they do this, the water goes off color and is not fun to fish.)

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The "mandrel" is made of steel with multiple tapers on it.  The tapers on the mandrels are used to arrive at the ID.  The ID in combination with the graphite thickness drives the OD which, in combination with the graphite modulus, give the black its action.  Many amndrels today have upwards of six taper changes on the tip. Dwight Talon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone give me a education on the making of a graphite fly rod.  I understand that graphite fibers are wound around a mandrel.  What is this mandrel ( inner core of a rod? ) made of?   Thanks for the info –

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In answer to your question, yes mandrels are tapered steel rods which do to some degree determine the charistics of the rod by determining the degree of taper.  After a particular mandrel is chosen,dependant on the type of rod, a piece of resin impregnated graphite cloth is cut according to a pattern ( either compound or progressive taper ) and wraped very tightly around the mandrel under extreme pressure to cause the resin to bond and hold the cloth together and then the rod and mandrel are suspended tip down in an oven where they are subjected to extreme heat and pressure. Then the rods are removed and seperated from the mandrels and sanded, painted, and /or clear coated.  

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone give me a education on the making of a graphite fly rod.  I understand that graphite fibers are wound around a mandrel.  What is this mandrel ( inner core of a rod? ) made of?   Thanks for the info – Stainless steel, I guess. It’s not left in the rod blank (as implied by your wording above). Think of a mandrel as an internal mold (form). The graphite material is wrapped around the mandrel and then they are both put into an oven for a heat cured. The mandrel is then withdrawn from the blank and reused, over and over. Unless you want to become a manufacturer of rod blanks, knowledge of mandrel shape is of little importance to an average custom rod builder (rod wrapper), except providing one of many needed bits of knowledge about a blank’s expected action. I’d expect the mandrel’s shape would be a closely-held trade secret of the mfg. company. Don Burns

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Can anyone give me a education on the making of a graphite fly rod.  I understand that graphite fibers are wound around a mandrel.  What is this mandrel ( inner core of a rod? ) made of?  

Hi Mark, Graphite comes as a cloth which is layed out on a table and cut to a pattern.  This is simply done placing a pattern over the cloth and then cutting the graphite cloth with a box knife (razor).  How the pattern is shaped will determine the wall thickness of the blank.  Graphite cut into a pattern is called a flag. The flags are then taken to the rolling machine.   Inside the rolling machine has been placed the correct mandrel for the section of the rod being manufactured.  Seperate mandrels are used for each piece of the rod.  The mandrel is a tapered steel rod that determines the inside diameter of the blank and the shape of the blank.  The combination of the cut of the pattern of the flag and the tapered shape of the mandrel determines the "taper" of the blank. A small heat iron is rubbed along the edge of the flag which makes it tacky and the tacky edge is slipped into the machine next to the mandrel. The tacky part of the flag adheres to the mandrel and th machine then rolls the graphite flag around the mandrel.  Heat shrink tape is then wrapped around the outside of the graphite and the mandrel with the shrink wrapped is removed from the rolling machine and hung up inside a walk-in oven.  The blank is then baked.  The heat activates the epoxies and resins in the graphite flag and the heat shrink tape compresses squeezing the graphite onto the  mandrel. When the gaphite is done cooking, it is removed from the oven and the blank is pulled off of the mandrel and the mandrel is used to make another rod.  The heat shrink tape leaves the ridges in the graphite that you see in many rods and the blank is finished at this point.  If the rod uses an external or internal ferrule (as opposed to the integral ferrule which is actually designed into the mandrel), it is attached at this point. Another step may ensue for cosmetic reasons and that is sanding off the ridges (scars from the heat shrink tape) and then coating the blank with an epoxy or varnish.  This last step is what allows rods to be made in different colors and have a smooth shiny surface instead of the dark gray color of the graphite itself. After the blank is constructed the rod is sypically splined and finished with guides, handle, reel seat, etc. This process commonly called rolling a rod.                          Hope this helps,                                Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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Can anyone give me a education on the making of a graphite fly rod.  I understand that graphite fibers are wound around a mandrel.  What is this mandrel ( inner core of a rod? ) made of?   Thanks for the info –

Stainless steel, I guess. It’s not left in the rod blank (as implied by your wording above). Think of a mandrel as an internal mold (form). The graphite material is wrapped around the mandrel and then they are both put into an oven for a heat cured. The mandrel is then withdrawn from the blank and reused, over and over. Unless you want to become a manufacturer of rod blanks, knowledge of mandrel shape is of little importance to an average custom rod builder (rod wrapper), except providing one of many needed bits of knowledge about a blank’s expected action. I’d expect the mandrel’s shape would be a closely-held trade secret of the mfg. company. Don Burns

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone give me a education on the making of a graphite fly rod.  I understand that graphite fibers are wound around a mandrel.  What is this mandrel ( inner core of a rod? ) made of? Thanks for the info – Stainless steel, I guess. It’s not left in the rod blank (as implied by your wording above). Think of a mandrel as an internal mold (form).

Barbless Mandrel ?   ;0 TimW

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone give me a education on the making of a graphite fly rod.  I understand that graphite fibers are wound around a mandrel.  What is this mandrel ( inner core of a rod? ) made of?   Thanks for the info –

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Can anyone give me a education on the making of a graphite fly rod.  I understand that graphite fibers are wound around a mandrel.  What is this mandrel ( inner core of a rod? ) made of?

Stainless Steel Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle Ltd. http://fishdoc.com./ "I’m the boss, so WHATEVER I say is OK"

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Can anyone give me a education on the making of a graphite fly rod.  I understand that graphite fibers are wound around a mandrel.  What is this mandrel ( inner core of a rod? ) made of?   Thanks for the info –

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writes: The  Herter’s catalog was the best reading material while siiting on the John  I have found. I still have some of his instruction manuals; i.e. How to stay  married to a bitch, The bull cookbook, The Herter’s guide manual and The  Herter’s Book of Fly and Lure Construction.. Also I have a friend who is still using a #7 vise and a Herter’s Bamboo Planing Jig. Too bad they went out of business. Luck. Ja

I was talking with my dad about a need for a good fishing catalog and he is said that he’s still disappointed that he can’t get a new Herter’s Catalog. "…can’t believe they went out of business. The Netcraft Catalog is about the closest thing left!" Don

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: The  Herter’s catalog was the best reading material while siiting on the : John  I have found. I still have some of his instruction manuals; i.e. How : to stay  married to a bitch, The bull cookbook, The Herter’s guide manual : and The  Herter’s Book of Fly and Lure Construction.. Also I have a friend : who is still using a #7 vise and a Herter’s Bamboo Planing Jig. Too bad : they went out of business. Luck. Jack    I still have my parka purchased from them in 1972. The ad used to    make the sale was terrific – showed a photo of Dr so and so using    Herter’s prime northern goose down parka on his Arctic expedition.    BTW, the parka is great.    I miss them …….

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As I understand it, Herter’s went out of business because they were allegedly involved in some "criminal activity." Problems with IRS and ATF. Say it aint So, George. –Doug Easton Tight Lines and Empty Creels

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I received e-mail that stated Herter’s catalogue can be obtained by calling 800-654-3825. I do not know whether this is a new company or what but I intend to call the number and see. Prehaps ur dad is interested. Stretched leaders. Jack.

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I am planning to get up to the Salmon River in NY in the next few days and I am wondering what conditions are like up there now.  Any Browns or Steelhead in the river?  Water levels – I heard it was high…has it dropped any?  I’d really appreciate an E-Mail or a posting.

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hell i even bought skis from that catalog…it was great fun to leaf thru…. craig

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Bob, Check out the following URL for exellent up to date info: http://www.maine.com:80/fish-ny/ Jim Walker will help you out with very near term conditions if you ask nicely. (and mail him 10 bucks) Right Jim? Bill Althoff

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Just a curiosity… Who all out there cut their fly tying teeth on George Leonard Herter’s big thick yellow book (you know the one…It’s where geo. said he invented all the fly patterns currently in use…:)) and if you did, which of the following statements rings more true with you: a) George’s book set me back twenty years in my growth as a fly tyer… b) This was the best book of it’s day on the subject, and got me off to a good start… Or feel free to fall in the middle somewhere with your own statement… An informal survey..

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The  Herter’s catalog was the best reading material while siiting on the John  I have found. I still have some of his instruction manuals; i.e. How to stay  married to a bitch, The bull cookbook, The Herter’s guide manual and The  Herter’s Book of Fly and Lure Construction.. Also I have a friend who is still using a #7 vise and a Herter’s Bamboo Planing Jig. Too bad they went out of business. Luck. Jack

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The  Herter’s catalog was the best reading material while siiting on the John  I have found. I still have some of his instruction manuals; i.e. How to stay  married to a bitch, The bull cookbook, The Herter’s guide manual and The  Herter’s Book of Fly and Lure Construction.. Also I have a friend who is still using a #7 vise and a Herter’s Bamboo Planing Jig. Too bad they went out of business. Luck. Jack Not too many folks could disagree with your first statement Jack, but I can disagree with your second one!!  Just ordered a catalog last week from their 800 number!!!!  What was that? You sure wish that guy woulda’ posted the damn number…..okay, Jack….here it is!!!                         800-654-3825 Now keep in mind, your proctologist will tell you that it’s not good to spend too much time sitting on the commode reading, you should just take care of business and move on……well F**K HIM!!! If he’s got time to meddle in other peoples business, he’s not spendin’ enuff time fishin" !!!!! Larry #:)#

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