Question:

"Bugger" As I suspected. Why don’t you guys just tell newcomers in the beginning that they are not welcome? This group is clearly a waste of time. Bug

Not sure that’s fair. In my time here (relatively short) I have been called a spammer, an asshole, a pompous git, a wanker, and a myriad of other things, but no one ever said I wasn’t welcome. Of course, I wouldn’t give a shit either way. It seems your response is a bit premature as you certainly don’t seem to have achieved a consensus about your being welcome or not at a clave. In fact I think you should turn up, I might actually spring for an airfare for that one myself. Clark

Response:

    Not sure that’s fair. In my time here (relatively short) I have been called   a spammer, an asshole, a pompous git, a wanker, and a myriad of other   things, but no one ever said I wasn’t welcome.     Of course, I wouldn’t give a shit either way. It seems your response is a   bit premature as you certainly don’t seem to have achieved a consensus about   your being welcome or not at a clave. In fact I think you should turn up, I   might actually spring for an airfare for that one myself. I’d make a point of being there too. I’d like to fish with you. Willi

Response:

Congrats, Mark. Keep the log book up to date, keep it between the lines, Just Say No To Overdrive, and best of luck. /daytripper (Hey! Now I can say "some of my best friends are truckers"!

Thank you kindly good sir! I will heed your advice, and look for you on my trips up North. yfitons, Op  –plagarist, just this once–

Response:

As I suspected. Why don’t you guys just tell newcomers in the beginning that they are not welcome? This group is clearly a waste of time. Bug

You seem to have discounted my reply? I suggest that you just show up at a ‘clave and be your *real* self.  Just ask Jeff C. about it. Op

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This group is clearly a waste of time.

That’s why we stick around. Mu

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This group is clearly a waste of time. That’s why we stick around. Mu

"What?  Did he expect Ichor?" GG :  ) www.gink.com

Response:

"What?  Did he expect Ichor?"

You mean Marty Feldman’s character in Young Frankenstein? Mu

Response:

If I am following this thread reasonably accurately, it appears that if I have the balls to show up, I will be granted some modicum of tolerance to demonstrate that the *real* me is very different from the *virtual* me. Feel free to correct me. (Rhetorical.) Bug et al. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They sound like they could be a lot of fun. Are they by invitation only? Bug

Response:

If I am following this thread reasonably accurately, it appears that if I have the balls to show up, I will be granted some modicum of tolerance to demonstrate that the *real* me is very different from the *virtual* me.

I think eees got it! I think eeezzzzz got it! Now wherez the rhain in Spain? "In the p____!" (Fill in) "In the p____!" (Fill in) (Just don’t volunteer to run the raffle) Dave

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(Just don’t volunteer to run the raffle)

And everyone count your fingers after shaking hands with him.

Response:

They sound like they could be a lot of fun. Are they by invitation only? Bug

Response:

They sound like they could be a lot of fun. Are they by invitation only? Bug

Not since I’ve been a part of ROFF! Just show-up and fish with lots-o-good folk. Op

Response:

They sound like they could be a lot of fun.

They are. Are they by invitation only? Bug

Yes.   Die. Wolfgang

Response:

They sound like they could be a lot of fun. They are. Are they by invitation only? Bug Yes. Die. Wolfgang

Now, now Wolfie.  I find it hard to believe that your last statement is heart-felt? Op  –say it ain’t so, Please.–

Response:

They sound like they could be a lot of fun. Are they by invitation only? Bug

Just do me one small favor, please, Collier. Stick to the claves out East.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They sound like they could be a lot of fun. They are. Are they by invitation only? Bug Yes. Die. Wolfgang Now, now Wolfie.  I find it hard to believe that your last statement is heart-felt? Op  –say it ain’t so, Please.–

Sorry, Op, it’s my name.  I take it very seriously. Wolfgang and i mean it.

Response:

Sorry, Op, it’s my name.  I take it very seriously. Wolfgang and i mean it.

My mistake!  I was talkin’ about the other last statement, as you know I would never make light of you name.  Well not since the first and last time I did when first I found ROFF.  You remember, I’m sure. Op  –nonetheless, sure wish I could have made it to the anti-clave this year– P.S.  I begin truckin’ on the 19th of Nov., if all goes well with drug test, health exam (not mental, thankfully), and road test.  So I may be in your neck of the woods in the near future, as Cargo Transporters go everywhere in the US and Canada…..OK, they don’t do Hawaii or Alaska.

Response:

Sorry, Op, it’s my name.  I take it very seriously. Wolfgang and i mean it. My mistake!  I was talkin’ about the other last statement,

Oh, that.  Now, why in the world would anyone care what someone says to a tetherball? as you know I would never make light of you name.  

Well, as I said, I take it seriously.  That said though, I can’t imagine why anyone else should. Well not since the first and last time I did when first I found ROFF.  You remember, I’m sure.

Ah, those were some days, ainna?    :) Op  –nonetheless, sure wish I could have made it to the anti-clave this year–

P.S.  I begin truckin’ on the 19th of Nov., if all goes well with drug test, health exam (not mental, thankfully), and road test.  So I may be in your neck of the woods in the near future, as Cargo Transporters go everywhere in the US and Canada…..OK, they don’t do Hawaii or Alaska.

The next month or so will still allow swinging a fly line in much of Wisconsin (although opportunities to chase trout are severely limited) but after that it’s pretty much hard water fishing till some time in late March or April.  You get up this way, give us a holler.  We’ll see if we can roust Joel, George, and maybe even Kim out of hibernation for a bit…….they’re apt to be a bit surly when awakened at this late season but they can usually be calmed down with a handful of berries or a marmot or something. Wolfgang

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They sound like they could be a lot of fun. They are. Are they by invitation only? Bug Yes.   Die.

<splork!

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They sound like they could be a lot of fun. Are they by invitation only? Bug

Let’s just say you can be "not invited".

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They sound like they could be a lot of fun. Are they by invitation only? Bug Just do me one small favor, please, Collier. Stick to the claves out East.

I dunno. He could be big on spontaneity. <g — TL, Tim

Response:

P.S.  I begin truckin’ on the 19th of Nov., if all goes well with drug test, health exam (not mental, thankfully), and road test.  So I may be in your neck of the woods in the near future, as Cargo Transporters go everywhere in the US and Canada…..OK, they don’t do Hawaii or Alaska.

Congrats, Mark. Keep the log book up to date, keep it between the lines, Just Say No To Overdrive, and best of luck. /daytripper (Hey! Now I can say "some of my best friends are truckers"!

Response:

As I suspected. Why don’t you guys just tell newcomers in the beginning that they are not welcome? This group is clearly a waste of time. Bug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They sound like they could be a lot of fun. Are they by invitation only? Bug Let’s just say you can be "not invited".

Response:

As I suspected. Why don’t you guys just tell newcomers in the beginning that they are not welcome?

    in your case, that condition should have been immediately clear.  This group is clearly a waste of time.

    no doubt. Bug

awh

Response:

We tell virtually all newcomers right from the start that they *are* welcome.  hint hint But what the hell – just show up and prove us all wrong.

As I suspected. Why don’t you guys just tell newcomers in the beginning that they are not welcome? This group is clearly a waste of time. Bug

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They sound like they could be a lot of fun. Are they by invitation only? Bug Let’s just say you can be "not invited".

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Question:

Sounds like a FANTASTIC day on the water,  great report jh

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Charles writes: <great report/info snipped Plans are in the offing for the next trip. Ok, I can’t make it tomorrow, but Friday is open!  d;o) Got home after an 8 hour drive (512 miles) in pouring rain, but every time I thought of those fish, I began to smile. If you’ve  fished with me, you know I don’t move around too well.  Legs and feet are very sore, but hotdamn, ya get an 18 pound salmon on a fly rod and he begins one (1) run that takes you well into your backing, ya hafta fall/leap out of the boat and run after the damn thing.  It ain’t fair.  But, is sure is heart thumping and adrenaline pumping.  And then, the bastid comes running back at you; once your get your line all wound up and clear,  he’s off on another run  into the backing   It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet and a fly that you *know* is gonna go straight any second.  Multiply that by 4 and you have an idea of the day Peter and I had on the Saugeen. I know where Peter lives.  I’ll be back, with a 10 foot 7 weight *with a fighting butt*, a Lamson 3.5 large arbor filled with wf line and as much backing as it can hold.  If not next month, Peter, count on late April/early May.  And this time we open the 18 year old stuff.  <G Dave

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(snip) It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet

(snip)     that whole thing is just crazy.  just freaking crazy.  i can’t imagine such an experience. yfitons wayno

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -wayno writes: (snip) It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet (snip)    that whole thing is just crazy.  just freaking crazy.  i can’t imagine such an experience. yfitons wayno

Save a day next may.  You can sleep in the rv.  I’ll let you use my 8 weight *with* the fighting butt.  I wanna see your scrawny ass runnin down the middle of this water.  <G Louie

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   that whole thing is just crazy.  just freaking crazy.  i can’t imagine such an experience. yfitons wayno

There’s a solution for that . . . . Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Peter Charles writes:    that whole thing is just crazy.  just freaking crazy.  i can’t imagine such an experience. yfitons wayno There’s a solution for that . . . . Peter

He’s used to catching iddy biddy trout the size of his dick, Peter.  He wouldn’t dream of going up and fishing with us.  The largest rod he has is a 2 weight – we’d have to loan him equipment and probably teach him how to cast it.  <seg  This water is meant for PJ and combat fishing. Louie (who hopes insults will move his scrawny ass)

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Peter He’s used to catching iddy biddy trout the size of his dick, Peter.  He wouldn’t dream of going up and fishing with us.  The largest rod he has is a 2 weight – we’d have to loan him equipment and probably teach him how to cast it. <seg  This water is meant for PJ and combat fishing. Louie (who hopes insults will move his scrawny ass)

That small eh?  In that case, I would think a 0 weight would be more appropriate.  If he came, we’d probably need a bosun’s chair just to lower him out of the boat.  BTW, think he can even lift an 8 wt.?  If he ever hooked a salmon, he’d probably throw the rod overboard from sheer fright.    (how am I doin’?) Peter

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It’s late, I’m beat, the pirate is whacked – this TR is gonna be short. Up at 4:30 and, on the road at 5:15, arrived at the store at 6:00, on the water by 8:00 and home by 9:00pm.   Louie before the trip, "I’m gonna take my 6 wt."   Told the Pirate not to bother with his vest or the 6 wt.   Well, we’re at the put-in and John Valk (owner/guide) is going "Nyet" to the 6 wt.  Out comes the 8 wt.  Now I’m looking at Louie and the fighting butt on the 8 wt. is missing, "I took it off." he says.  Silly boy.  By the end of the day, there’s no vest, the 6 wt. never left its tube and he has a hole in his sternum where he had stuck the reel seat on repeated occasions. Best shot of the day – watching Louie’s face as his backing rapidly disappears.  Second best shot of the day, seeing Louie running 100 yds downstream trying to retrieve his backing – after vaulting out of the drift boat. Anyway, a bunch of very feisty chinook was had and all returned in one piece (including the anglers).   Details at 6:00. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Anyway, a bunch of very feisty chinook was had and all returned in one piece (including the anglers).   Sounds great.  Were there any steelhead in as yet ? Remove "XX" from address

We saw a few but the real run hasn’t gone going yet.  We need colder temps and a *lot* more water. As John fussed with the boat and stuff, there were a bunch of salmon playing in the shallows.  I had a poke at them with the big stick but no joy.  With that experience, I put it away and took out a single hander. Dave got out a rarely used Orvis 8 wt. with a big sinktip that proved to be a difficult line to use in the low water conditions. Dave, by his own admission, was unsure what this fishing would be about and when we found a pod of about 20 salmon cavorting about, he had two silver dollars for eyeballs.   John has a particular way of doing a wet fly swing (he likes the fly oriented north-south – I tend to a broadside presentation) but we both used John’s technique.  We swim the fly in front of the pod and hope that a big, pissed-off male will charge out and nail it.  Frequently, we were not disappointed and Dave got a very lively fish out of this pod within a couple of minutes. Dave hooked up first (a fish probably in the low teens) which promptly peeled off all of his line and a good quantity of backing.  It was a great intro to Saugeen salmon fishing.  He eventually ended up about 100 yards downstream where the fish was netted. A couple of points about these fish.  Credit River salmon are stocked and live in Lake Ontario whereas the Saugeen fish are naturals and live in Lake Huron.  You cannot imagine how much difference this results in.  Saugeen fish, even 70 miles upstream, are fairly bright and in excellent shape.  Credit River stockers are only a few miles up stream and already black and rotting.  The Saugeen fish takes off at a high rate of knots when released, even after a long fight.  He’s usually back cavorting in a minute or two.  Credit River fish often roll over an die upon release after a half-hearted fight.  John told us a story of catching the same chinook three times in succession and it fought just as hard the third time as it did the first. The Saugeen was especially low and clear so the fish were always very obvious.  We drifted over a few steelhead, loads of huge smallies, some browns, red horse suckers, carp, and a few unidentified.  The colours were especially bright in the high sun, and with the warm day, it was a very pleasant trip all-round. Final results were something like four fish each landed and multiple hookups (including one double).  Most of the fish were in the teens but one of mine was over 20 lbs.  We saw and hooked a few bruisers that ran over 30.  All of them took off in long runs.  Some of the fish were quite aerobatic with jumps, lunges and tumbles that often resulted in them being wrapped up in line.  One of mine began to fight funny after a few minutes. On initial hookup, the fish stuck his head out of the water with an open mouthed head shake that told of a fair hook.  By the time we got him landed, the fly was still in his mouth but he had about five winds of line around one fin.  Dave had one where the fly started off in it’s mouth and ended up in it’s tail.  We figured it too got wrapped up in line and then the fly came loose only to reattach. I’ll have a trip on my site by next week with pics that will give some indication of the river and the fish.   It was fun as always having the Pirate up and Thanksgiving dinner will long be remembered for the gales of laughter and the sore sides we had in the morning. Plans are in the offing for the next trip. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Peter Charles writes: <great report/info snipped Plans are in the offing for the next trip.

Don’t wait too long. Ok, I can’t make it tomorrow, but Friday is open!  d;o)

At the Salmon River, Saugeen next week. Got home after an 8 hour drive (512 miles) in pouring rain, but every time I thought of those fish, I began to smile.

probably brighter than those bright blue Audi headlights. If you’ve  fished with me, you know I don’t move around too well.  Legs and feet are very sore, but hotdamn, ya get an 18 pound salmon on a fly rod and he begins one (1) run that takes you well into your backing, ya hafta fall/leap out of the boat and run after the damn thing.  It ain’t fair.  But, is sure is heart thumping and adrenaline pumping.  And then, the bastid comes running back at you; once your get your line all wound up and clear,  he’s off on another run  into the backing   It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet and a fly that you *know* is gonna go straight any second.  Multiply that by 4 and you have an idea of the day Peter and I had on the Saugeen.  

It was a memorable day fer sure.   I know where Peter lives.  I’ll be back, with a 10 foot 7 weight *with a fighting butt*, a Lamson 3.5 large arbor filled with wf line and as much backing as it can hold. If not next month, Peter, count on late April/early May.  And this time we open the 18 year old stuff.  <G

You mean, like again! Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Peter Charles writes:

<great report/info snipped Plans are in the offing for the next trip.

Ok, I can’t make it tomorrow, but Friday is open!  d;o) Got home after an 8 hour drive (512 miles) in pouring rain, but every time I thought of those fish, I began to smile. If you’ve  fished with me, you know I don’t move around too well.  Legs and feet are very sore, but hotdamn, ya get an 18 pound salmon on a fly rod and he begins one (1) run that takes you well into your backing, ya hafta fall/leap out of the boat and run after the damn thing.  It ain’t fair.  But, is sure is heart thumping and adrenaline pumping.  And then, the bastid comes running back at you; once your get your line all wound up and clear,  he’s off on another run  into the backing   It is definitely weird to be running downstream in knee-deep water, with your flyrod high and see a fish jump 250 feet in front of you and realize that you are connected to that fish with a hundred feet of line, a hundred and forty feet of backing , 10 feet of 10 pound tippet and a fly that you *know* is gonna go straight any second.  Multiply that by 4 and you have an idea of the day Peter and I had on the Saugeen.   I know where Peter lives.  I’ll be back, with a 10 foot 7 weight *with a fighting butt*, a Lamson 3.5 large arbor filled with wf line and as much backing as it can hold.  If not next month, Peter, count on late April/early May.  And this time we open the 18 year old stuff.  <G Dave

Response:

Sounds like a great trip. Sight fishing for big fish, can’t beat that! Did you catch anything other than the Chinooks?

Nope, we were hoping for steelhead but the conditions were too warm and the water too low.  We saw lots of smallies but with the low, clear water, we saw them when we spooked them.   Not sure I’d call the the Saugeen fish "natural" but the same differences you found here between the stocked and streambred salmon also applies to trout. Even though the genetics might be the same, the stocked fish act differently even after being in the wild for a considerable time. Willi

I used the term ‘natural’ to mean naturally reproducing.  While these chinook exhibit superior characteristics as compared to their stocked cousins, I haven’t seem the same difference between natural and stocked browns on the Grand.  That may have something to do with how the Grand stocking program is managed. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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I thought that Ontario had stopped stocking chinook altogether, but I guess not, eh ?   The strain of chinook used for stocking is one that does not move in until quite late.  I’ve read that what has happened in some cases where natural reproduction has been established is that over generations the salmon have tended to come into rivers earlier and earlier prior to spawning.  It sounds like the Saugeen is one of them.

I’ve always understood that Credit River chinook were stocked as the prospects for natural reproduction were poor.  John confirmed that they were stockers. I’ve not heard about earlier runs but with the Saugeen being farther north, an earlier run is to be expected.  There’s no question that they are much healthier fish. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

      Anyway, a bunch of very feisty chinook was had and all returned in one   piece (including the anglers).       Sounds great.  Were there any steelhead in as yet ?     Remove "XX" from address       A couple of points about these fish.  Credit River salmon are stocked   and live in Lake Ontario whereas the Saugeen fish are naturals and   live in Lake Huron.  You cannot imagine how much difference this   results in.  Saugeen fish, even 70 miles upstream, are fairly bright   and in excellent shape.  Credit River stockers are only a few miles up   stream and already black and rotting.  The Saugeen fish takes off at a   high rate of knots when released, even after a long fight.  He’s   usually back cavorting in a minute or two.  Credit River fish often   roll over an die upon release after a half-hearted fight.  John told   us a story of catching the same chinook three times in succession and   it fought just as hard the third time as it did the first. Sounds like a great trip. Sight fishing for big fish, can’t beat that! Did you catch anything other than the Chinooks? Not sure I’d call the the Saugeen fish "natural" but the same differences you found here between the stocked and streambred salmon also applies to trout. Even though the genetics might be the same, the stocked fish act differently even after being in the wild for a considerable time. Willi

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Question:

Frank: It was also while on his honeymoon.  What a kicker. Nice report GM.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Report included pictures, extra roffians, huge fish, a veritable reiding rainbow, booze, perseverance in the face of illness, food, culture, geography, deep fried gerbils (well, they coulda been there!)….    Excellent report.  Congrats on the big fish and nice to hear the little brother is finally working again.  Good on ya, both you and Clark.  Sounds like the trip of a lifetime. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

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Frank: It was also while on his honeymoon.  What a kicker. Nice report GM.

Thanks Stan. Still wanna do a run to the Battenkill? — Gary (Email address is munged with x’s)

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Thanks Stan. Still wanna do a run to the Battenkill?

I’m thinking it’s a bit late for this year – the trout season ended Oct. 28′th. I tried to get in a last day of warmwater fishing last Saturday in Otis and it snowed!  We didn’t even get our canoes in the water<g.  We could always try to hit the Swift or the Millers.

Response:

… We could always try to hit the Swift or the Millers.

um…stan, could you maybe hold off for a while?  i’m currently engaged in a conflict in which i’m getting my ass whipped pretty good… …where is the millers – mass.? jeff

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Thanks Stan. Still wanna do a run to the Battenkill? I’m thinking it’s a bit late for this year – the trout season ended Oct. 28′th. I tried to get in a last day of warmwater fishing last Saturday in Otis and it snowed!  We didn’t even get our canoes in the water<g.  We could always try to hit the Swift or the Millers.

Millers/Swift sounds good. Is the FF Only section open yet? The NY State side of the Battenkill is still open. I don’t think it closes, or it does at the end of Nov. Or did regs change? — Gary (Email address is munged with x’s)

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…where is the millers – mass.?

The Millers River is a small river flowing west just south of the New Hampshire border into the Connecticut.  It is a typical New England river in that it has been dammed and abused by mills for a couple hundred years. There are some beautiful stretches though, and Gary wrote a nice piece about it this summer concerning a seemingly impossible cast. –Stan

Response:

Millers/Swift sounds good. Is the FF Only section open yet? The NY State side of the Battenkill is still open. I don’t think it closes, or it does at the end of Nov. Or did regs change? — Gary

I’m not sure about the NY regs.  I think that parts of the Ausable, Schroon and Battenkill are open year-round.  The general regs trout season ends Oct. 15. The Swift is still closed upstream from the Rt. 9 bridge.  It was supposed to re-open on Nov. 1 but the latest scare this week made them postpone the opening until Nov. 7.  Downstream is still open as usual, and has had much heavier pressure than usual because of the closed section.

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Thanks for the kind words Gary. I also can add some reasons for the lack of a photo of the big fish and the fault is squarely mine, though Gary is too much of a gentleman to indicate so. In the process of landing the fish the fly came free of the fish as often happens at the end of the battle. On this occasion though it was because the clumsy guide had stepped on the leader thus freeing the fish prior to Gary getting the camera out. It was impossible to hold such a fish unrestrained  she was a big powerful brown at least in excess of 10lbs, exact weight I could only guess at between 10 and 12 pounds. A fish Gary should be proud of and one I am gutted to have prevented a photo of. So I owe apologies for "screwing up" to Gary and the promise of being more diligent should he ever return. I for one hope you do Gary, you were a pleasure to fish with. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I met up with Clark Reid a week ago today for a few frolics in the middle of the South Island of New Zealand. Firstly I am eternally grateful to him, as the poor bastard was sick as a dog. So sick as to get up at 3am the night before, drive about 50 miles to hospitalize himself, only to be too tired to make the hospital, sleep in the truck and he still made our date at 8:30am. I felt guilty all day until I gave him a drop o’ old Jameson’s and he felt better. So did I, when he reciprocated with a delicious sour mash of his choosing. We were in the Mt Cook vicinity (http://www.rockypond.com/mtcook.jpg), an area that has a look not unlike that of Three Rivers in Montana (wide, arid, surrounded by mountains, http://www.rockypond.com/scenery.jpg). The nearby Lake Tekapo, where we stayed, is spectacular with a deep azure color from the nearby glaciers (picture includes shot of your friend and humble narrator, http://www.rockypond.com/tekapo.jpg). The first stream (http://www.rockypond.com/firstriver.jpg) we visited was about 15 feet in width, slightly off color and cold. I admit that it did not look like much. Clark assured me it held big fish. Clark explained that Kiwi fishing is different from US or UK fishing in that there are fewer fish that are much larger. This was certainly bourn out this day. Being early season there was not much of any dry fly activity, which was slightly disappointing, so we nymphed all day. I pounded water for about an hour and eventually hooked up near a wooden bridge. At first I didn’t think it a large fish as he came towards me, but when he made a run upstream, I was in no doubt. Upstream was an old wooden bridge and as I applied pressure I will never forget the wave the fish created in the river as it turned. The fish was a brown about 26 inches in size, maybe 8lbs or so. It fought for 10 mins and we eventually tagged him at an undercut. After that we moved to a different river over the nearby Burke’s Pass. We stopped to review a fish that Clark had scouted the day before that was in a tough, nearly impossible position. Sitting in front of a bridge leg, with a brush accumulation behind him, in the current that itself broke both ways around the bridge was a good 10lb brown. He was spooked immediately, but twenty mins later after we had eaten lunch and got ready he was back. This time, from the river level, I was fairly sure with Clark’s help I could get something on his nose. There was a rocky braid in the river shy of the lie and I hunched down using it as cover. When I reached the braid I lay down flat and peaked up to get the bearing; Clark called the casts though. Too short, lifted too soon, etc. My fear was to let the fly go too long and catch the brush pile. I managed two good drifts to the fish which he ignored and then Clark chose the strategy that since the current was breaking, making dead drift impossible, a swimming nymph would work. Clark told me the nymph was akin to the Isonychia, which I have had great success with in the US. I cannot remember but I believe it was the first or second cast that he yelled "Strike!" To my surprise he was hooked (the fish, not Clark). What ensued was almost complete anarchy and what happened next transpired over a few minutes. I stood up and the fish took off upstream. Above the pool were some step-like rapids and white water, which the fish barreled through even though I had full power on the loaded rod. Impressive indeed. I managed to turn him and he came down the pool to the (those who are following this could guess this next bit) brush pile at the bridge. Once he was there I thought it was game over. I pulled and could feel nothing only dead weight. As I was upstream I knew I was applying pressure in the wrong direction (either that, or I was trying to pull a brush pile and bridge in my direction).  I had to get a more acute angle. Without thinking I jumped into the white water and crossed this extremely fast current. I never would have done this without the adrenalin rush I was now experiencing and as I had to wade downstream I think this was the only thing that saved me from a dunking. By now both Clark and I had fallen a few times due to the step sides of the loose moraine in the rivers. When I got across and was almost 180 degrees from him I was pleased to see the fish was still on and I had successfully moved him from the brush pile into the deep blue pool. This was a good sighting point and how beautiful he was: a big olive head and a body that was 30 inches at least. He came to my feet and I contemplated beaching him, until I fell once again and this time painfully. He was spooked and off downstream, where, to Clark’s credit he was waiting for the fish in the shallow waters. At this point we released him a little too fast for a photograph, but that did not matter to me. It was a good stalk and a good team effort for a righteous fish. We could only laugh and shake our heads at the marvel of that emotional deluge we call fly-fishing. I had the greatest feeling though I was in pain from the falls. I will add at this point it was becoming clear to me that another characteristic of Kiwi fishing is that the river size coupled with large fish size definitely put the odds in favor of the fish. I personally could learn a lot more about playing a large fish by fishing more down there. By now, it was mid afternoon and I had had two fish. Like I mentioned earlier, this is pretty typical. I managed another fish a few minutes later upstream, about 3lbs (http://www.rockypond.com/fish3.jpg). We worked another hour and then decided to move on. As we were on either side of a pass in these past two fish it was apparent that the weather here is strange. At the last river the sky became cloudy and snow was visible at higher elevations, but as we returned across Burke’s Pass again the sky cleared. We fished a fast deep stream in the hot sunshine (name escapes me now, but here’s pic, http://www.rockypond.com/stream3.jpg). Spent nearly two hours here with no luck though we covered a lot of water. The afternoon was getting late and we decided to hit a creek called Mary Burn (a lot of Scots settled NZ). This river was barely a trickle (http://www.rockypond.com/maryburn.jpg). Tannin stained almost like the Scottish or Irish streams are, but barely 5 feet wide. No way was I going to believe that there were anything but fingerlings in there. I hiked off a bit and came to an electrical cattle fence. As I walked up the soft bank I spooked a 22inch brown, which scared the living shit out of me. He nearly beached himself trying to get away. I cannot imagine how this tiny stream grew such enormous fish. In any case this was to be the closest encounter I would have to one of Mary Burn’s progeny. A wind had whipped up and was blowing about 25 knots. As you can imagine trying to hit a less than 1-foot target area in a 5-foot stream with this kind of wind required skills I have yet not acquired, nor maybe never will. Also the temperature was dropping and this wind bit cold. We decided to head off for somewhere sheltered. Sadly the weather did not get better and it was 39F (down about 30 degrees from 2 hours earlier) due to a cold front that had moved in. We decided to call it a day around 7pm I think. It was almost 12 hours fishing and it was the most enjoyable kind. Good fish, good water, good spirits and good conversations. And, yes, Clark Reid is a great guide and good company. Anyway I do thank him again for a great time. He may be able to explain better than I to ROFF as to why the streams are as they are. I think it is to do with a low pH, no environmental issues (NZ has NO fossil fuel or nuclear power plants – all Hydro). That evening, myself and my new wife drove outside of town in the clear, still sky of the new cold front we took in Crux, the Southern Cross (a lifelong dream) and the Clouds of Magellan; not to mentions the upside down Northern Constellations. For the rest of my travels I stopped at many, many streams and every one had big fish (sunglasses over lens to polarize, http://www.rockypond.com/feeder.jpg), even by the Angler’s Access parking areas. One stream looked like someone had surgically lifted the River Avon in Wiltshire and dropped it in the valley of the Eglinton River. I watched a fish work every few seconds and he was mine (strictly up-and-across, mind), but I was sans rod and reel and could only dream. Another series of small lakes held a good dozen two foot long trout that sipped away oblivious to the visitors and gave me a good treatise on the Brownian feeding manner of the still water trout. Sorry for the long report. Hope you enjoyed it.

… read more »

Response:

Great report.  Thanks for writing it up. bruce h

Response:

Great report, Gary. Good reading and excellent pictures. Very well done. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

Report included pictures, extra roffians, huge fish, a veritable reiding rainbow, booze, perseverance in the face of illness, food, culture, geography, deep fried gerbils (well, they coulda been there!)….    Excellent report.  Congrats on the big fish and nice to hear the little brother is finally working again.  Good on ya, both you and Clark.  Sounds like the trip of a lifetime. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Response:

I met up with Clark Reid a week ago today for a few frolics in the middle of the South Island of New Zealand.

really enjoyed your descriptions of the place & the fishing Mu

Response:

[great reportt snipped for brevity] Thanks for reading.

Thanks for writing! Steve

Response:

I met up with Clark Reid a week ago today for a few frolics in the middle of the South Island of New Zealand.

Great report snipped. Including pictures with your report was very appreciated. If find it interesting that the trout population is lower than here in the States but that there are more big fish. Willi

Response:

Sorry for the long report.

Uhhh…. don’t mention it.  Thanks.

Response:

I met up with Clark Reid a week ago <snip   Thanks for reading.

Thanks for writing.  Nice report. Kevin

Response:

Superb report, and I really enjoyed the excellent photos. It looks a lot like the Sawtooth and Stanley Basins, but the fish are a lot bigger. Is the area in runoff conditions now? BTW, I can’t believe you didn’t get a photo of that 30" brown. I’ll bet it flopped away before the camera was ready. Bruce Hopper and I are experts in that maneuver. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Superb report, and I really enjoyed the excellent photos. It looks a lot like the Sawtooth and Stanley Basins, but the fish are a lot bigger. Is the area in runoff conditions now?

It is supposed to be in runoff, but NZ had been in a drought situation for the past few years, so many rivers are dry and many are below average flows. Actually one picture I wish I had snapped was up on the lake of a boat ramp that was easily 150ft long and the lake itself was about 20ft beyond the *end* of the ramp. BTW, I can’t believe you didn’t get a photo of that 30" brown. I’ll bet it flopped away before the camera was ready. Bruce Hopper and I are experts in that maneuver.

LOL. You read it well.  Clark had a normal film camera and he was taking pics of the antics. Not sure if he actually caught it though. I certainly did not have time to get my camera out. — Gary (Email address is munged with x’s)

Response:

I met up with Clark Reid a week ago today for a few frolics in the middle of the South Island of New Zealand.

…and the goodness of this strange place is continued… thanks gary.  rw and you have raised the bar for trip reports with your illustrations, and i’ve enjoyed them a lot. jeff (off to wade the stagnant streams of the pitt county courthouse…)

Response:

jeff (off to wade the stagnant streams of the pitt county courthouse…)

        same same for your brother at the bar, little wayno, up into the wilds of surrey county, a lawless land if ever there were one… wayno  (but damn if those ol boys don’t grow some righteous ganga!)

Response:

I met up with Clark Reid a week ago today for a few frolics in the middle of the South Island of New Zealand. Firstly I am eternally grateful to him, as the poor bastard was sick as a dog. So sick as to get up at 3am the night before, drive about 50 miles to hospitalize himself, only to be too tired to make the hospital, sleep in the truck and he still made our date at 8:30am. I felt guilty all day until I gave him a drop o’ old Jameson’s and he felt better. So did I, when he reciprocated with a delicious sour mash of his choosing. We were in the Mt Cook vicinity (http://www.rockypond.com/mtcook.jpg), an area that has a look not unlike that of Three Rivers in Montana (wide, arid, surrounded by mountains, http://www.rockypond.com/scenery.jpg). The nearby Lake Tekapo, where we stayed, is spectacular with a deep azure color from the nearby glaciers (picture includes shot of your friend and humble narrator, http://www.rockypond.com/tekapo.jpg). The first stream (http://www.rockypond.com/firstriver.jpg) we visited was about 15 feet in width, slightly off color and cold. I admit that it did not look like much. Clark assured me it held big fish. Clark explained that Kiwi fishing is different from US or UK fishing in that there are fewer fish that are much larger. This was certainly bourn out this day. Being early season there was not much of any dry fly activity, which was slightly disappointing, so we nymphed all day. I pounded water for about an hour and eventually hooked up near a wooden bridge. At first I didn’t think it a large fish as he came towards me, but when he made a run upstream, I was in no doubt. Upstream was an old wooden bridge and as I applied pressure I will never forget the wave the fish created in the river as it turned. The fish was a brown about 26 inches in size, maybe 8lbs or so. It fought for 10 mins and we eventually tagged him at an undercut. After that we moved to a different river over the nearby Burke’s Pass. We stopped to review a fish that Clark had scouted the day before that was in a tough, nearly impossible position. Sitting in front of a bridge leg, with a brush accumulation behind him, in the current that itself broke both ways around the bridge was a good 10lb brown. He was spooked immediately, but twenty mins later after we had eaten lunch and got ready he was back. This time, from the river level, I was fairly sure with Clark’s help I could get something on his nose. There was a rocky braid in the river shy of the lie and I hunched down using it as cover. When I reached the braid I lay down flat and peaked up to get the bearing; Clark called the casts though. Too short, lifted too soon, etc. My fear was to let the fly go too long and catch the brush pile. I managed two good drifts to the fish which he ignored and then Clark chose the strategy that since the current was breaking, making dead drift impossible, a swimming nymph would work. Clark told me the nymph was akin to the Isonychia, which I have had great success with in the US. I cannot remember but I believe it was the first or second cast that he yelled "Strike!" To my surprise he was hooked (the fish, not Clark). What ensued was almost complete anarchy and what happened next transpired over a few minutes. I stood up and the fish took off upstream. Above the pool were some step-like rapids and white water, which the fish barreled through even though I had full power on the loaded rod. Impressive indeed. I managed to turn him and he came down the pool to the (those who are following this could guess this next bit) brush pile at the bridge. Once he was there I thought it was game over. I pulled and could feel nothing only dead weight. As I was upstream I knew I was applying pressure in the wrong direction (either that, or I was trying to pull a brush pile and bridge in my direction).  I had to get a more acute angle. Without thinking I jumped into the white water and crossed this extremely fast current. I never would have done this without the adrenalin rush I was now experiencing and as I had to wade downstream I think this was the only thing that saved me from a dunking. By now both Clark and I had fallen a few times due to the step sides of the loose moraine in the rivers. When I got across and was almost 180 degrees from him I was pleased to see the fish was still on and I had successfully moved him from the brush pile into the deep blue pool. This was a good sighting point and how beautiful he was: a big olive head and a body that was 30 inches at least. He came to my feet and I contemplated beaching him, until I fell once again and this time painfully. He was spooked and off downstream, where, to Clark’s credit he was waiting for the fish in the shallow waters. At this point we released him a little too fast for a photograph, but that did not matter to me. It was a good stalk and a good team effort for a righteous fish. We could only laugh and shake our heads at the marvel of that emotional deluge we call fly-fishing. I had the greatest feeling though I was in   pain from the falls. I will add at this point it was becoming clear to me that another characteristic of Kiwi fishing is that the river size coupled with large fish size definitely put the odds in favor of the fish. I personally could learn a lot more about playing a large fish by fishing more down there. By now, it was mid afternoon and I had had two fish. Like I mentioned earlier, this is pretty typical. I managed another fish a few minutes later upstream, about 3lbs   (http://www.rockypond.com/fish3.jpg). We worked another hour and then decided to move on. As we were on either side of a pass in these past two fish it was apparent that the weather here is strange. At the last river the sky became cloudy and snow was visible at higher elevations, but as we returned across Burke’s Pass again the sky cleared. We fished a fast deep stream in the hot sunshine (name escapes me now, but here’s pic, http://www.rockypond.com/stream3.jpg). Spent nearly two hours here with no luck though we covered a lot of water. The afternoon was getting late and we decided to hit a creek called Mary Burn (a lot of Scots settled NZ). This river was barely a trickle (http://www.rockypond.com/maryburn.jpg). Tannin stained almost like the Scottish or Irish streams are, but barely 5 feet wide. No way was I going to believe that there were anything but fingerlings in there. I hiked off a bit and came to an electrical cattle fence. As I walked up the soft bank I spooked a 22inch brown, which scared the living shit out of me. He nearly beached himself trying to get away. I cannot imagine how this tiny stream grew such enormous fish. In any case this was to be the closest encounter I would have to one of Mary Burn’s progeny. A wind had whipped up and was blowing about 25 knots. As you can imagine trying to hit a less than 1-foot target area in a 5-foot stream with this kind of wind required skills I have yet not acquired, nor maybe never will. Also the temperature was dropping and this wind bit cold. We decided to head off for somewhere sheltered. Sadly the weather did not get better and it was 39F (down about 30 degrees from 2 hours earlier) due to a cold front that had moved in. We decided to call it a day around 7pm I think. It was almost 12 hours fishing and it was the most enjoyable kind. Good fish, good water, good spirits and good conversations. And, yes, Clark Reid is a great guide and good company. Anyway I do thank him again for a great time. He may be able to explain better than I to ROFF as to why the streams are as they are. I think it is to do with a low pH, no environmental issues (NZ has NO fossil fuel or nuclear power plants – all Hydro). That evening, myself and my new wife drove outside of town in the clear, still sky of the new cold front we took in Crux, the Southern Cross (a lifelong dream) and the Clouds of Magellan; not to mentions the upside down Northern Constellations. For the rest of my travels I stopped at many, many streams and every one had big fish (sunglasses over lens to polarize, http://www.rockypond.com/feeder.jpg), even by the Angler’s Access parking areas. One stream looked like someone had surgically lifted the River Avon in Wiltshire and dropped it in the valley of the Eglinton River. I watched a fish work every few seconds and he was mine (strictly up-and-across, mind), but I was sans rod and reel and could only dream. Another series of small lakes held a good dozen two foot long trout that sipped away oblivious to the visitors and gave me a good treatise on the Brownian feeding manner of the still water trout. Sorry for the long report. Hope you enjoyed it. Visit NZ some time. The accommodation and car rental is reasonable. The steak and cheese pies and Sleights Old Dark are worth the trip in itself. Come on, don the DVT socks and do it. It’s only 12 hours from LA. Thanks for reading. Gary — Gary (Email address is munged with x’s)

Response:

Question:

  And now, back to your regularly scheduled programmming….. bite me Warren!

Go smoke a whitefish! — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

Response:

fishing depends (at least in part) on thinking like a fish.  I’ve tried it. Makes my brain hurt.

My guess is that if we are thinking like a fish we would eat sticks and rocks. I keep finding them in the fish that I keep. Big Dale

Response:

Excellent synopsis Peter.  These types of discussions were what first attracted me to and later hooked me on ROFF.  My thanks to you, Willi, et all for the thought provoking insights/explanations.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled programmming….. bite me Warren!

Response:

I am a fairly new fly fisher and an even newer tier. I have been fortunate enough to have a few experienced hands tell me that I am far more picky about my flies than the fish. Also, worry about developing the tying skills and your flies will look more like the store flies as you get better. In the mean time, it’s pretty darn cool to catch a fish on something that you made by hand. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even during hatches, not all the fish will be keyed into the same features on a fly. With some, wings may be important, others how high or low the fly floats, others size, others sparseness, other "action", others color, other orientation etc. etc.  Just like people, I think there are fish that look for certain "right" characteristics in a fly and are triggered by it, those that look for something wrong and if found will reject it, and those that just want something to eat. Individual fish have individual feeding habits and preferences. There is no magic fly. Being successful means finding a fly that appeals to the majority of fish and turns off few. Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish. Willi

Response:

<snipped a whole bunch for the Grand Poohbah   Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending?

Willi, I can’t remember if you were there when this happened during the clave or not.  We were fishing and saw a fish swallow a bunch of moss and then spit it out.  Perhaps there was a morsel of food in that bunch of moss and the fish separated it and then spit the moss back out.  It could be that the fish sees the hook as debris to filter out from the food and takes the fly anyways.  Just a thought. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

Response:

What a trout perceives is a problem amenable to experiment….and it’s been done.

Wolfgang, Like usual, I don’t know how to take what you say but did you mean the above? If so, I’d like to see it. Willi

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple. Not to be a wise-ass, but we do?  I mean, I think you’re right, but to pull a Wolfgang (which ain’t easy, lemme tell ya), how do we know? Granted, we can measure it as far as physical size, and do some experiments as far as electric charges, etc., but how can we (at this point, anyway) really know what a fish is "thinking" or perceiving? It ain’t SUPPOSED to be easy!  Nevertheless, here’s a little tip: never try to get away with making two (or three) points look like one.

Well, thanks, but, basically, I was calling you fat…. A trout’s brain IS small and relatively simple.  We could go into all kinds of tedious detail about comparative neuroanatomy (and the literature is voluminous) but it’s late and I need to get to bed.

And so is the literature that says there is, or isn’t, a God or Gods, that Communism is the best thing since, well, others say it wasn’t, and with the advent of the Web, probably quite a bit claiming Elvis, JFK, and Marilyn Monroe are having a nightly GB at Bill Gates’ house. What a trout perceives is a problem amenable to experiment….and it’s been done.

Granted, we…well, ok, "we" implies the wrong thing, so – someone can likely get general info, like, "shine light, fish swims away" and "fish tries to eat this, but not that," but I’m dubious we can truly know what fish "think," perceive, or whatever you call it, i.e., knowing the fish "thinks" a particular thing is or isn’t, and more importantly, why.  For example, I’d run away from a group of people having a Beastie Boys marathon, but not because I’m scared of the people, music, or the Beastie Boys, but I don’t like them, either.  On the other hand, I might sit and listen with a group of gangbangers who happened to like, oh, say, Bobby Short, Bob Wills, or certain Jane’s Addiction cuts.   One reason I’m sure "we" haven’t discovered such information (past a certain superficial level, anyway) is because especially with things like fish, which leads to fishing, is that it would get exploited before the ink was dry on the reports.  I hate to sound cynical, but I think if "we" could truly and accurately figure out what makes fish "tick," or what they "think" (again, accurately is key), companies would be on it like, well, fish on scientifically-developed foolproof (the key) lures.  Moreover, even when the ability to vocally express how a creature is feeling is there, even that isn’t a completely accurate measure…look at women, for example…. We are all familiar with the adage that suggests success in fishing depends (at least in part) on thinking like a fish.  I’ve tried it. Makes my brain hurt.

Yeah, and it’s always made me laugh…why the hell would I want to think like the thing I’m trying to outsmart and catch.  For example, if a lion thought like a Tommy, would another lion get confused and eat him, or even more odd, would he get confused and die of exhaustion trying to outrun himself?  Heck, maybe he’d just have a crisis of conscience and run off and become a vegan and try to convert the pride.  Soon, he’d be smoking clove cigarettes, getting arrested with Al Sharpton, and whining about Nike factories and under-sized limos. Next thing you know, he’d be hanging out with Paul McCartney, and Lord knows what else…well, actually, I think the Lord did know, which is why lions don’t flit about trying to think like Tommies…..they just catch ‘em and eat ‘em….. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Wolfgang

Response:

As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple. Not to be a wise-ass, but we do?  I mean, I think you’re right, but to pull a Wolfgang (which ain’t easy, lemme tell ya), how do we know? Granted, we can measure it as far as physical size, and do some experiments as far as electric charges, etc., but how can we (at this point, anyway) really know what a fish is "thinking" or perceiving?

It ain’t SUPPOSED to be easy!  Nevertheless, here’s a little tip: never try to get away with making two (or three) points look like one. A trout’s brain IS small and relatively simple.  We could go into all kinds of tedious detail about comparative neuroanatomy (and the literature is voluminous) but it’s late and I need to get to bed. What a trout perceives is a problem amenable to experiment….and it’s been done. We are all familiar with the adage that suggests success in fishing depends (at least in part) on thinking like a fish.  I’ve tried it. Makes my brain hurt. Wolfgang

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <Big Snip I’ll take dogs as an example, I know them pretty well after working with them for many years. If we try and understand how they smell things based on how we smell things, we couldn’t even begin to understand the complexity, importance and usefulness of smells in their life. Their sense of smell, how they interpret smells, and how they can use them is as alien to our sense of smell as our "intellect" is to theirs. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous. Willi I told my wife about this post and tried to get her to conduct an experiment, but she wouldn’t do it. All I wanted her to do was let me get the video camera and shoot video of her sniffing our Basset Hound’s butt and then giving me her perceptions. Among "other" things, she said I’d been on this news group way too long. <g

Post of the week, great image!! Willi

Response:

[snip] What does a trout see when our dry passes overhead? – a protruding hook that is below the surface and produces no dimpling or halos

This is one of things that convinced me that a trout’s perception of a fly is very different from ours. In looking at the photos of underwater views of a fly, the bend of the hook and the barb is VERY prevalent. To my eye it is probably the most prevalent thing. However, a trout will overlook this but at times demand an exact match in terms of size, shape, color, etc. Willi

Response:

First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.

   I believe this is often of major importance. When fishing with a dry fly, I often cast to spots I *know* hold fish, and I get no response because the fly is riding a little low in the water. After treating it with desiccant it will be riding on the very tips of the hackles; it just amazes me how this can trigger strikes from fish that weren’t the least bit interested in the same fly moments earlier.

Response:

First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.    I believe this is often of major importance. When fishing with a dry fly, I often cast to spots I *know* hold fish, and I get no response because the fly is riding a little low in the water. After treating it with desiccant it will be riding on the very tips of the hackles; it just amazes me how this can trigger strikes from fish that weren’t the least bit interested in the same fly moments earlier.

(I noticed you use this technique on a fish that short struck the other day on the Big T) And sometimes the opposite is true, the fish will take a partly submerged fly after rejecting the same fly floating high and dry. This happened to me yesterday. Willi

Response:

This is one of things that convinced me that a trout’s perception of a fly is very different from ours. In looking at the photos of underwater views of a fly, the bend of the hook and the barb is VERY prevalent. To my eye it is probably the most prevalent thing. However, a trout will overlook this but at times demand an exact match in terms of size, shape, color, etc. Willi

I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play. A partially drowned fly may work if the fish is keyed on emerging or drowned insects. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is one of things that convinced me that a trout’s perception of a fly is very different from ours. In looking at the photos of underwater views of a fly, the bend of the hook and the barb is VERY prevalent. To my eye it is probably the most prevalent thing. However, a trout will overlook this but at times demand an exact match in terms of size, shape, color, etc. Willi I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play.

That’s how the photos of dry flies from underwater appear to us. I question that they are perceived in the same manner by a trout. Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending? The point I’m trying to make is that when we use our vision to try and explain how a trout or any other animal uses their vision, I think that alot of the assumptions made are going to be erroneous. This is especially true if, like in the case of trout vision, there are demonstrative physical differences in vision components between that animal and ourselves. Also, vision is more than how the eye perceives something, it is how the brain interprets the signals that it receives from the eye.   I’ll take dogs as an example, I know them pretty well after working with them for many years. If we try and understand how they smell things based on how we smell things, we couldn’t even begin to understand the complexity, importance and usefulness of smells in their life. Their sense of smell, how they interpret smells, and how they can use them is as alien to our sense of smell as our "intellect" is to theirs. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous. Willi

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I’ll take dogs as an example, ….. ….. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous.

True, but no more erroneous than if we *didn’t* use our sense of smell to try to understand theirs.  ;) I agree with everything you say about our sense of vision necessarily being different from a trout’s, but it’s really the closest thing we have to work with and base our guesses on.  Otherwise we’re reduced to throwing up our hands and relying on "conclusions" drawn from what are really small, highly variable samples (our own personal experiences).  AND we’d have less to BS about. JR

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play. That’s how the photos of dry flies from underwater appear to us. I question that they are perceived in the same manner by a trout. Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending?

[snip] As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple.  It can only process so many visual cues.  If we make this process overly complex, I think we make it more difficult than it need be.  I believe that a trout processes the visual cues that say "food" and ignores those that suggest otherwise (e.g. the hook.)  After all, a trout’s world is full of drifting debris.  It has to have a simple, yet quick way to differentiate between a small stick and a nymph, for example. If your fly has the necessary cues, the trout takes it, despite the big, ugly hook.  This differentiation process is probably learned through repetition – the more bugs of a certain type that pass by a trout, the more likely it will fixate on them and begin to feed.  It probably has to learn what is good to eat, every time a major hatch occurs – this explains why the early part of a hatch may not engender much of response. It may well perceive colour, light refraction, etc. differently than us, but there is only a few cues we need to get right.  This is one of the reasons why I don’t like to stray too much from the original materials in an old recipe.  Skues talks about how certain materials have a special quality in the water and appear more like the natural when presented in the trout’s world.  I think if you get the hackle and tail, size, and colour right, you’ll fool trout more often than not. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play. That’s how the photos of dry flies from underwater appear to us. I question that they are perceived in the same manner by a trout. Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending? [snip] As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple.

Not to be a wise-ass, but we do?  I mean, I think you’re right, but to pull a Wolfgang (which ain’t easy, lemme tell ya), how do we know? Granted, we can measure it as far as physical size, and do some experiments as far as electric charges, etc., but how can we (at this point, anyway) really know what a fish is "thinking" or perceiving? It can only process so many visual cues.  If we make this process overly complex, I think we make it more difficult than it need be.  I believe that a trout processes the visual cues that say "food" and ignores those that suggest otherwise (e.g. the hook.)  After all, a trout’s world is full of drifting debris.  It has to have a simple, yet quick way to differentiate between a small stick and a nymph, for example. If your fly has the necessary cues, the trout takes it, despite the big, ugly hook.  

Maybe they just intend to eat what appears to be the bug and not what appears to be whatever the hook appears to be.  When one gets a club sandwich, one doesn’t think, "Hmm, this looks good, well, except for that frilly stick in it.  I wonder if I have to eat that, too?" so perhaps it simply looks like a fish’s frilly stick or parsley sprig or whatever, or maybe they see insects on or near actual sticks, and eat the bug and either not eat or spit out the stick – maybe they see a stick and a bug, and when they spit out the stick, to their surprise and your consternation, the whole thing goes.  Or maybe, just like most living creatures, including humans, close is good enough if you are hungry enough or the food looks good enough.  If simply looking odd or different prevented predation, we’d be up to our hat brims  in things like albinos, genetic appearance deformities (that had no health ramifications), etc. because they’d be no natural predators of such things (well, except man and a few other things), they’d gradually become more prevalent. This differentiation process is probably learned through repetition – the more bugs of a certain type that pass by a trout, the more likely it will fixate on them and begin to feed.  It probably has to learn what is good to eat, every time a major hatch occurs – this explains why the early part of a hatch may not engender much of response. It may well perceive colour, light refraction, etc. differently than us, but there is only a few cues we need to get right.  This is one of the reasons why I don’t like to stray too much from the original materials in an old recipe.  Skues talks about how certain materials have a special quality in the water and appear more like the natural when presented in the trout’s world.  I think if you get the hackle and tail, size, and colour right, you’ll fool trout more often than not.

If you look at writers of the beginnings of the "dry fly era of prominence" (say from about 1870 to Mary Orvis Marbury, etc., forward), you find that there are vast differences of opinion as to replication vs. stimulation vs. "tempting" vs. simple guessing vs. planned experimentation.  Many felt that "fooling" the fish by making them think the fly was a true natural was all but impossible, and the closer you tried to get, the more "unnatural" your imitator would appear.  Maybe it was a mirror of the Impressionists, but some seem to feel that "suggesters" were more effective than imitators.  FWIW, my view has always been (and admittedly, it is both acquired from others and self-discovery) that there is much more to it than accurate-to-us appearing imitators, but YMMV.  For example, how many have had beat-up, ratty, tattered old flies, lures, etc., that produced better than new, truly accurate imitators? As to the history of the subject, if anyone is interested, I have some pretty old volumes, and some do talk about this very subject, plus I’m sure there are many others with other works, so perhaps we can piece together a history of this aspect of the sport. TC, R

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<Big Snip I’ll take dogs as an example, I know them pretty well after working with them for many years. If we try and understand how they smell things based on how we smell things, we couldn’t even begin to understand the complexity, importance and usefulness of smells in their life. Their sense of smell, how they interpret smells, and how they can use them is as alien to our sense of smell as our "intellect" is to theirs. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous. Willi

I told my wife about this post and tried to get her to conduct an experiment, but she wouldn’t do it. All I wanted her to do was let me get the video camera and shoot video of her sniffing our Basset Hound’s butt and then giving me her perceptions. Among "other" things, she said I’d been on this news group way too long. <g

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Excellent synopsis Peter.  These types of discussions were what first attracted me to and later hooked me on ROFF.  My thanks to you, Willi, et all for the thought provoking insights/explanations. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] What does a trout see when our dry passes overhead? – a hackle dimpled surface film producing halos of light – a tail that also produces a dimpling along its length and the same light refraction – a protruding hook that is below the surface and produces no dimpling or halos – a body that for the most part is in shadow – the solid outline of a dun’s wings – all of this seen against a bright sky background First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.  As she gets closer, the colour and wing start to become important.  A fish can focus on a fly less than an inch from its nose – its close range vision is excellent – so the rest of the details have to start to make sense, the wing, the body colour, the size, etc. Trout seem to take flies for a number of reasons – obviously hunger and it matches what she’s been eating for the last half hour, curiosity, aggression, and playfulness.  I mentioned in a much earlier post, being fooled by three little browns that raced around chasing Gray Foxes.  It’s not wise to take an anthropomorphic interpretation of their behaviour, however, had they simply been hungry, they could have sat in one of the many feeding lanes and sipped Gray Foxes all afternoon.  It’s difficult to interpret their pack chasing behaviour as anything other than playful competition.  They also keyed on moving Gray Foxes, a still natural or imitation didn’t get a look. To sum it up, the fly should sit right, producing the right halos, plus it should cast a shadow of approximately the right size, and finally, it’s details should be right to pass the close range examination. This applies to picky fish in slower water condition; brookies in fast water tend to slash at anything that looks like food.  So in my neck of the woods, flies that will catch brookies on the cascade section of the Credit, will be a complete bust on the slow glides of the Grand. There’s too much variation o attempt generalize much further than this. (Much of the above wisdom, courtesy of various books by Lafontaine, Skues, et al.) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at

http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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<snipped interesting speculations of an experienced fishtricker  They also keyed on moving Gray Foxes, a still natural or imitation didn’t get a look.

kinda like on penns creek when we were there…  the march browns had to quiver a bit and just right to interest most of those finicky browns …anything just floating motionless on the water generally wouldn’t be touched.  i saw dozens of fish nail the bug just as it was starting to take off from the surface, and several coming full-body out of the water like a salmon to grab the bug in the air.  that was one of those memory etchings i look forward to collecting more of…

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Even during hatches, not all the fish will be keyed into the same features on a fly. With some, wings may be important, others how high or low the fly floats, others size, others sparseness, other "action", others color, other orientation etc. etc.  Just like people, I think there are fish that look for certain "right" characteristics in a fly and are triggered by it, those that look for something wrong and if found will reject it, and those that just want something to eat. Individual fish have individual feeding habits and preferences. There is no magic fly. Being successful means finding a fly that appeals to the majority of fish and turns off few. Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish. Willi

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Just like people, I think there are fish that look for certain "right" characteristics in a fly and are triggered by it…

- "Hey, Jimmie, looks like we got a hotty floating by at three o’clock!" – "Woa, dude, check out the hackles on *that* one!" – "Hey, there, midge! Why doncha drift on over to *my* riffle, baby?" –Steve (if fish could talk)

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Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish.

Not only do we merely perceive color differently than the fish (probably), we probably also overestimate color and underestimate behavior of the bug. This idea is explored in "What The Trout Said" and "Dry Fly: New Angles".

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Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish.

And although it simply states the obvious, the fish views the fly from a completely different angle, and through a different medium, so even if they did see (eye construction- and placement-wise) in the same manner as people, their frame of reference is completely different. It’s unlikely that man and fish will ever see a fly the same, regardless of the difference in the eyes. Moreover, we can not know what differences would go ignored, which would be seen as different but "OK," and which were different and off-putting.  As a simple example, most people would recognize and accept Wendy’s square hamburger as just another burger variant and eat it if they wanted a burger (yeah, yeah, eyeball jokes, taste, etc., aside), but given a choice between a burger with, say, asparagus spears, raw oysters, and orange sherbet and a plain burger, most would likely choose the plain one (even if they’d eat all the items in other combinations).   But as Willi points out, fish seem to be like people in that they do have individual habits, and occasionally, just like kids drinking pickle juice over ice, a fish might try and eat something different.   Fish "dine" on what comes past or is within sight, they don’t seem to "plan" dinner – "Ooh, honey, doesn’t the Four Seasons sound good, and then, we can go by the Carlyle for drinks and a little Bobby…" or decide that the tacos at El Asadero sound better than the seafood at Costa Azul and head that way.  But they can sometimes be tempted by teasing them with something that looks "food-ish" enough AND different enough to tempt them into taking a chance, just like you do when the waiter suggests the entire tenderloin, rare, with Hollandaise and a large side of creamed spinach, or the dessert cart comes by with the Double Chocolate Drunken Fudge Cream Cake with Buttery-Sweet Ice Cream on top.  You know you shouldn’t, the better half is gonna bitch, but like a moth to a flame….or rather, a hog to a trough…. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Willi

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[snip] What does a trout see when our dry passes overhead? – a hackle dimpled surface film producing halos of light – a tail that also produces a dimpling along its length and the same light refraction – a protruding hook that is below the surface and produces no dimpling or halos – a body that for the most part is in shadow – the solid outline of a dun’s wings – all of this seen against a bright sky background First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.  As she gets closer, the colour and wing start to become important.  A fish can focus on a fly less than an inch from its nose – its close range vision is excellent – so the rest of the details have to start to make sense, the wing, the body colour, the size, etc. Trout seem to take flies for a number of reasons – obviously hunger and it matches what she’s been eating for the last half hour, curiosity, aggression, and playfulness.  I mentioned in a much earlier post, being fooled by three little browns that raced around chasing Gray Foxes.  It’s not wise to take an anthropomorphic interpretation of their behaviour, however, had they simply been hungry, they could have sat in one of the many feeding lanes and sipped Gray Foxes all afternoon.  It’s difficult to interpret their pack chasing behaviour as anything other than playful competition.  They also keyed on moving Gray Foxes, a still natural or imitation didn’t get a look.   To sum it up, the fly should sit right, producing the right halos, plus it should cast a shadow of approximately the right size, and finally, it’s details should be right to pass the close range examination. This applies to picky fish in slower water condition; brookies in fast water tend to slash at anything that looks like food.  So in my neck of the woods, flies that will catch brookies on the cascade section of the Credit, will be a complete bust on the slow glides of the Grand. There’s too much variation o attempt generalize much further than this. (Much of the above wisdom, courtesy of various books by Lafontaine, Skues, et al.) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

Done that for bass.  Clear lake in norther California has vast fields of tulies and that is about the only way to fish them. We would use the same tackle we used for  Poke Poling – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for the name of a form of warm water fly fishing that I saw described in some magazine several years ago.   A short line was tied directly to the tip of a long cane pole which was armed with a popping bug which was then dabbled about on the water around lily pads and brush piles.   I believe that this was used in places where brush prevented traditional fly casting. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance. Buff This technique is known as "Doodel Socking",  or simply "Doodeling". For more info have a look at http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/oldflies/part11.html TL MC

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abcpicts wrote I am looking for the name of a form of warm water fly fishing that I saw described in some magazine several years ago.  …..

Funny you should mention this.  Our club speaker this month was an interesting ol’ character named Harry Smith who uses a very similar technique to illicit frenzied response from bass. His fly is a hookless bird pattern about the size of a baby bird.  He simply ties the birdfly to a short (3-4") spring loaded leader that is tied directly to the rod tip….No reel!.  Harry gets into the weeds and begins dabbling the little birdie here and there until he gets the attention of one or more bass and then the fun begins. The video footage he presented is absolutely amazing!  The fish grab the fly, take it down, eventually let it go….then come back for more.  Harry claims several hundred strikes in an hour.  It’s amazing that the fish keep after the pattern in spite of their lack of success in acquiring any protein from the effort. —                                                       -dnc-

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I am looking for the name of a form of warm water fly fishing that I saw described in some magazine several years ago.   A short line was tied directly to the tip of a long cane pole which was armed with a popping bug which was then dabbled about on the water around lily pads and brush piles.   I believe that this was used in places where brush prevented traditional fly casting. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance. Buff

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There is a version of fly fishing practised in the UK called "dapping". It involves the use of a long rod, a light line and a fine leader. The rod is fished down wind from a boat and the wind bounces the fly from wave to wave. This sounds  like the word you need. Although, your description does not sound like fly fishing in the traditional sense.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for the name of a form of warm water fly fishing that I saw described in some magazine several years ago.   A short line was tied directly to the tip of a long cane pole which was armed with a popping bug which was then dabbled about on the water around lily pads and brush piles.   I believe that this was used in places where brush prevented traditional fly casting. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance. Buff

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bug-dunkin — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for the name of a form of warm water fly fishing that I saw described in some magazine several years ago.   A short line was tied directly to the tip of a long cane pole which was armed with a popping bug which was then dabbled about on the water around lily pads and brush piles.   I believe that this was used in places where brush prevented traditional fly casting. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance. Buff

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I am looking for the name of a form of warm water fly fishing that I saw described in some magazine several years ago.   A short line was tied directly to the tip of a long cane pole which was armed with a popping bug which was then dabbled about on the water around lily pads and brush piles.   I believe that this was used in places where brush prevented traditional fly casting. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance. Buff

This technique is known as "Doodel Socking",  or simply "Doodeling". For more info have a look at http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/oldflies/part11.html TL MC

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There is a version of fly fishing practised in the UK called "dapping". It involves the use of a long rod, a light line and a fine leader.

My understanding is that dapping isn’t usually done with a fine tippet. After all, the tippet isn’t supposed to get into the water. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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<SNIP My understanding is that dapping isn’t usually done with a fine tippet. After all, the tippet isn’t supposed to get into the water.

Your understanding is correct. Using too fine a leader is a serious mistake when dapping. I have never used anything less than eight pound mono. Dapping tends to attract large fish. http://www.fishandfly.co.uk/jbedit0699.html http://www.fishandfly.co.uk/jbedit0900.html http://www.amazingoutdoors.com/0,2010,S74-P166-A7436-TA,00.html http://www.masterflyfishing.com/tactics/nymphs/page4.htm http://www.actravel.co.uk/shannon.html http://www.irishfieldsports.com/newpage64.htm You might find these interesting as well; http://www.flymail.com/graphcat/dapping.html TL MC

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Doodling is indeed the word. Large crank baits are used for bass and flies for bream and warmouth. Fish are not lifted from the water but retrieved hand over hand. a cane pole works well. — John Popp in Sanford Fl.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for the name of a form of warm water fly fishing that I saw described in some magazine several years ago.   A short line was tied directly to the tip of a long cane pole which was armed with a popping bug which was then dabbled about on the water around lily pads and brush piles.   I believe that this was used in places where brush prevented traditional fly casting. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance. Buff This technique is known as "Doodel Socking",  or simply "Doodeling". For more info have a look at http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/oldflies/part11.html TL MC

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After checking one of my old American books, I found another name for the technique you describe.  It is called "Jiggerpoling".  Much the same as "Doodling" but a plug, bacon rind, frog, etc or similar is used.  A search on "jiggerpoling" turned up these; http://www.gcomag.com/052k/jiggerpole.htm http://www.edersfishing.com/fresh/publication/2000/june/Jiggerploes/d…. cfm Very interesting. TL MC

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, about 4 weeks ago I received my Notice Of Pendency And Settlement Of Class Action in the Couch vs Brunswick class action suit. Since my last purchase has twin engines I have received 2 claim forms to send in. I am in a greedy mood and wonder why I did not receive forms for the purchases in 95, 96 and 97 as they were all Mercruiser powered boats also. Oh well, two is enough I guess. Anyway here are the choices. I will announce my two choices and wonder what you would choose or what you did choose if you are a member of the suit. I’m curious as to the particulars of this case. What was the reason for the lawsuit? Defective products, overpricing, or something else?

I don’t have any specifics, but the general flavor of the situation indicated anti-competitive pricing and marketing issues.  Had nothing to do with the quality of the products themselves. Russ

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Well, about 4 weeks ago I received my Notice Of Pendency And Settlement Of Class Action in the Couch vs Brunswick class action suit. Since my last purchase has twin engines I have received 2 claim forms to send in. I am in a greedy mood and wonder why I did not receive forms for the purchases in 95, 96 and 97 as they were all Mercruiser powered boats also. Oh well, two is enough I guess. Anyway here are the choices. I will announce my two choices and wonder what you would choose or what you did choose if you are a member of the suit.

I’m curious as to the particulars of this case. What was the reason for the lawsuit? Defective products, overpricing, or something else? BTW the suit is for all consumers who purchased a new Mercruiser stern drive or inboard engine in Tennessee, Alabama, Arizona, California, Florida, Kansas, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, New Mwxico, North Carolina, North Dakota, South dakota, West Virginia, Wisconsin or the District of Columbia during the period from February 17, 1995 through February 16, 1999.

That explains why I didn’t get any notice for my 2 purchases during that time period. I don’t live in any of those states (Which is probably why I didn’t know anything about it). Dave

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Go with the cash…    Nothing tastes better than your favourite beverage bought    by someone else.

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To the rest of you what would you choose and why? If there are any NG members who are participants in the suit will you send in your claims and what did you choose and why. Just curious.

Cash, nothing else on the list fit any real need or desire of mine.  The $100 can always go in the gas tank.  I’ve only got one claim since it corresponds to my ‘97 Sea Ray which was a single.  The ‘99 has twins, but was purchased after the inclusive dates. I might have an explanation as to why you didn’t get claim forms for your earlier purchases.  In my case, I was not the original purchaser of the ‘97. I purchased it slightly used.  However, when I bought it, I paid the nominal fee to MerCruiser to have the warranty and registration changed to my name. I assume MerCruiser tracks the lawsuit claims by engine serial numbers.  I am the guy now registered to that serial number, hence I get the claim form. The odd part is that I don’t own the boat any longer.  The people I sold it to had no reason to change the registration with MerCruiser, since the original factory warranty had expired in the period I owned it.  If the buyers of your previous boats changed the registration with MerCruiser as I did, that could explain why you didn’t get claim forms for those purchases. Russ

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You get a coupon and the lawyers get $333,000,342.

At least, I am sure. Probably very much more. 68 days to go..

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, about 4 weeks ago I received my Notice Of Pendency And Settlement Of Class Action in the Couch vs Brunswick class action suit. Since my last purchase has twin engines I have received 2 claim forms to send in. I am in a greedy mood and wonder why I did not receive forms for the purchases in 95, 96 and 97 as they were all Mercruiser powered boats also. Oh well, two is enough I guess. Anyway here are the choices. I will announce my two choices and wonder what you would choose or what you did choose if you are a member of the suit. BTW the suit is for all consumers who purchased a new Mercruiser stern drive or inboard engine in Tennessee, Alabama, Arizona, California, Florida, Kansas, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, New Mwxico, North Carolina, North Dakota, South dakota, West Virginia, Wisconsin or the District of Columbia during the period from February 17, 1995 through February 16, 1999. The choices are: A. $100.00 cash payment. B. Free Brunswick products – retail value up to $200     Life Vest package ($186.60) suggested retail price.     The package includes 1 XL, 1 L, and 2 M blue/black Quicksilver vests. Each    vest has closed sides, four 1" belts, and denier coated nylon shell covering soft     Ensolite foam.     Kneeboard package ($195.75) suggested retail price.     The package includes one Quicksilver "Hurricane" Kneeboard; one 75′ soft  handled ski rope and four USCG approved Quicksilver boat cushions.     Igloo Cooler ($149.99) suggested retail price.     One 128 qt. Igloo Marine cooler with a foam insulated body and lid, nautical     rope, wood handles and a threaded drain plug.     Brunswick bowling ball and bag ($199.90) suggested retail price.     One Brunswick Attack Zone mid-performance 16 lb bowling ball and one black    Brunswick Zone Pro Double Roller bag.     Zebco Fishing Pacage ($205.00) suggested retail price.     The package includes one 100% graphite 6′ medium action, cork handled spinning rod with metal 4 ball bearing spinning reel; one 5′ 6" medium action,    cork handled casting rod with Quantum Heat 1 ball bearing baitcast reel; one     spincast combo with on-pack camera; one 275 yd., 10 lb Monofilament fishing     line; and one 4" carbon steel hook.     American Camper package ($200.00) suggested retail price.     The package includes four American Camper 29" x 72" fleece lined, full length     zipper sleeping bags; and one American Camper 9′ x 9′ four person dome tent     with rain fly.     Mongoose Mountain Bike ($199.00) suggested retail price.     One adult Mongoose 21 speed mountain bike with dual suspension and 26" unisex frame. All rpoducts are subject to availability. If inventory problems should arise, Brunswick will substitute products within the category of equal or greater value. C. $200 Customer Rebate Coupon     $200.00 consumer rebate coupon, valid for the purchase of any Mercury Marine     Outboard of 60 horsepower or less, to be exercised of or before December 31,     2000. Those are the choices. I have decided to go with the Mongoose mountain bike and the American Camper package. I will be replacing a Huffy mountain bike that was stolen 3 years ago during one of my many trips to Put-in-Bay. I will go with the camper package since all my sleeping bags are at least 10 years old and showing their wear and tear. I don’t know if I will ever use the tent but who knows. I could always sell it I guess. Reasons for not choosing: The $100.00 cash payment. Not really much of an offer there. Once the money is spent it is gone and $200.00 is not going to make or break me. Life vest package. I already have 10 various sizes of life jackets aboard and most are 3 years old or newer. Kneeboard package. I really cannot see myself kneeboarding behind my 30′ Bayliner and besides that I may be to old to learn. Igloo cooler. My boat came with a 64 quart Igloo cooler so I really don’t need another one. Bowling ball and bag. I already own a bowling ball, bag and shoes so it would be redundant. Zebco fishing package. I don’t fish. $200 dollar consumer rebate coupon. I do not anticipate purchasing a new outboard motor anytime soon since I already own a Merc 15 hp motor for my inflatable. To the rest of you what would you choose and why? If there are any NG members who are participants in the suit will you send in your claims and what did you choose and why. Just curious. 68 days to go..

You get a coupon and the lawyers get $333,000,342. — Harry Krause The chance of a piece of bread falling with the buttered side down is directly proportional to the cost of the carpet

Response:

Well, about 4 weeks ago I received my Notice Of Pendency And Settlement Of Class Action in the Couch vs Brunswick class action suit. Since my last purchase has twin engines I have received 2 claim forms to send in. I am in a greedy mood and wonder why I did not receive forms for the purchases in 95, 96 and 97 as they were all Mercruiser powered boats also. Oh well, two is enough I guess. Anyway here are the choices. I will announce my two choices and wonder what you would choose or what you did choose if you are a member of the suit. BTW the suit is for all consumers who purchased a new Mercruiser stern drive or inboard engine in Tennessee, Alabama, Arizona, California, Florida, Kansas, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, New Mwxico, North Carolina, North Dakota, South dakota, West Virginia, Wisconsin or the District of Columbia during the period from February 17, 1995 through February 16, 1999. The choices are: A. $100.00 cash payment. B. Free Brunswick products – retail value up to $200     Life Vest package ($186.60) suggested retail price.     The package includes 1 XL, 1 L, and 2 M blue/black Quicksilver vests. Each    vest has closed sides, four 1" belts, and denier coated nylon shell covering soft     Ensolite foam.     Kneeboard package ($195.75) suggested retail price.     The package includes one Quicksilver "Hurricane" Kneeboard; one 75′ soft    handled ski rope and four USCG approved Quicksilver boat cushions.     Igloo Cooler ($149.99) suggested retail price.     One 128 qt. Igloo Marine cooler with a foam insulated body and lid, nautical     rope, wood handles and a threaded drain plug.     Brunswick bowling ball and bag ($199.90) suggested retail price.     One Brunswick Attack Zone mid-performance 16 lb bowling ball and one black    Brunswick Zone Pro Double Roller bag.     Zebco Fishing Pacage ($205.00) suggested retail price.     The package includes one 100% graphite 6′ medium action, cork handled     spinning rod with metal 4 ball bearing spinning reel; one 5′ 6" medium action,    cork handled casting rod with Quantum Heat 1 ball bearing baitcast reel; one     spincast combo with on-pack camera; one 275 yd., 10 lb Monofilament fishing     line; and one 4" carbon steel hook.     American Camper package ($200.00) suggested retail price.     The package includes four American Camper 29" x 72" fleece lined, full length     zipper sleeping bags; and one American Camper 9′ x 9′ four person dome tent     with rain fly.     Mongoose Mountain Bike ($199.00) suggested retail price.     One adult Mongoose 21 speed mountain bike with dual suspension and 26"     unisex frame. All rpoducts are subject to availability. If inventory problems should arise, Brunswick will substitute products within the category of equal or greater value. C. $200 Customer Rebate Coupon     $200.00 consumer rebate coupon, valid for the purchase of any Mercury Marine     Outboard of 60 horsepower or less, to be exercised of or before December 31,     2000. Those are the choices. I have decided to go with the Mongoose mountain bike and the American Camper package. I will be replacing a Huffy mountain bike that was stolen 3 years ago during one of my many trips to Put-in-Bay. I will go with the camper package since all my sleeping bags are at least 10 years old and showing their wear and tear. I don’t know if I will ever use the tent but who knows. I could always sell it I guess. Reasons for not choosing: The $100.00 cash payment. Not really much of an offer there. Once the money is spent it is gone and $200.00 is not going to make or break me. Life vest package. I already have 10 various sizes of life jackets aboard and most are 3 years old or newer. Kneeboard package. I really cannot see myself kneeboarding behind my 30′ Bayliner and besides that I may be to old to learn. Igloo cooler. My boat came with a 64 quart Igloo cooler so I really don’t need another one. Bowling ball and bag. I already own a bowling ball, bag and shoes so it would be redundant. Zebco fishing package. I don’t fish. $200 dollar consumer rebate coupon. I do not anticipate purchasing a new outboard motor anytime soon since I already own a Merc 15 hp motor for my inflatable. To the rest of you what would you choose and why? If there are any NG members who are participants in the suit will you send in your claims and what did you choose and why. Just curious. 68 days to go..    

Response:

Question:

I understand that there can be a significant difference in terms of how fast a gps can get a bearing between modals.  I am looking for a gps for fly fishing saltwater.  I will want to be able to mark channels, fishing spots, etc.  Can anyone with experience advise me on what to look for? JK

Response:

I understand that there can be a significant difference in terms of how fast a gps can get a bearing between modals.  I am looking for a gps for fly fishing saltwater.  I will want to be able to mark channels, fishing spots, etc.  Can anyone with experience advise me on what to look for?

Soitenly! Look for a Garmin GPSIII+ /daytripper

Response:

The Garmin GPSIII+ typically acquires satellites and computes it’s initial position in less than a minute.  The downloadable maps include lots of coastal data, markers, buoys, etc.  I use one inland on streams, rivers and lakes.  email me directly if you want more info.  Also you might want to look at the usegroup : sci.geo.satellite-nav.  Lots of experienced folks there as well. Tom — Tom Brown The Signal Group Wake Forest, NC HEATHEN, n. A benighted creature who has the folly to worship something that he can see and feel.                – Ambrose Bierce: The Devil’s Dictionary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I understand that there can be a significant difference in terms of how fast a gps can get a bearing between modals.  I am looking for a gps for fly fishing saltwater.  I will want to be able to mark channels, fishing spots, etc.  Can anyone with experience advise me on what to look for? JK

Response:

I can put off buying the unit until spring although it would be convenient to have it sooner.  Do you see anything changing in terms of new products or enhancements that would warrant waiting? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Garmin GPSIII+ typically acquires satellites and computes it’s initial position in less than a minute.  The downloadable maps include lots of coastal data, markers, buoys, etc.  I use one inland on streams, rivers and lakes.  email me directly if you want more info.  Also you might want to look at the usegroup : sci.geo.satellite-nav.  Lots of experienced folks there as well. Tom — Tom Brown The Signal Group Wake Forest, NC HEATHEN, n. A benighted creature who has the folly to worship something that he can see and feel.               — Ambrose Bierce: The Devil’s Dictionary I understand that there can be a significant difference in terms of how fast a gps can get a bearing between modals.  I am looking for a gps for fly fishing saltwater.  I will want to be able to mark channels, fishing spots, etc.  Can anyone with experience advise me on what to look for? JK

Response:

Hard to say.  My personal expectation is that there will be a version available with more internal flash memory, sometime in the spring.  The GPSIII+ has 1.44 megs in additional to the (good) base map.  Take a look at  www.joe.mehaffey.com .  That’s sort of a "clearing house" for current GPS info. And, start looking at/participating in/ the newsgroup that I mentioned.  Since this is not a germane subject for most flyfishers, email me directly for follow-on info. Tom — Tom Brown The Signal Group Wake Forest, NC HEATHEN, n. A benighted creature who has the folly to worship something that he can see and feel.                – Ambrose Bierce: The Devil’s Dictionary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can put off buying the unit until spring although it would be convenient to have it sooner.  Do you see anything changing in terms of new products or enhancements that would warrant waiting? The Garmin GPSIII+ typically acquires satellites and computes it’s initial position in less than a minute.  The downloadable maps include lots of coastal data, markers, buoys, etc.  I use one inland on streams, rivers and lakes.  email me directly if you want more info.  Also you might want to look at the usegroup : sci.geo.satellite-nav.  Lots of experienced folks there as well. Tom I understand that there can be a significant difference in terms of how fast a gps can get a bearing between modals.  I am looking for a gps for fly fishing saltwater.  I will want to be able to mark channels, fishing spots, etc.  Can anyone with experience advise me on what to look for? JK

Response:

Question:

I am searching for a fly box/book.  I have worn out my old one and can not locate a vendor who carries what i am looking for.  The box/book i am looking for has several leafs (felt like) for leadered wet flies and a box compartment for dry flies.  Does anyone know of a fly box/book like i describe?

Response:

        The last time I saw those was when I worked at a store in New Jersey, 10 years ago. They were (are?) made with the brand name "Common Sense" imprinted on them. They may still be in production for all I know. You could call the store and ask them to search for you (Efinger Sporting Goods 908-356-0604). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am searching for a fly box/book.  I have worn out my old one and can not locate a vendor who carries what i am looking for.  The box/book i am looking for has several leafs (felt like) for leadered wet flies and a box compartment for dry flies.  Does anyone know of a fly box/book like i describe?

Response:

Question:

I’ll be trying the Big Sur River just south of Monterey Calif. on Wednesday.   I figure I’ll use dark flies and quarter the stream.  It’s not a deep river so I’m going to use a floating line and let the weight of the fly do the work of getting down to the fish. So, what do you think?  Am I on the right track?

Hello Bob, We are all curious as to how you did.  If you caught one then you confirm the truism that sometimes a first time beginner can walk up to a river and catch a steelhead. Back to reality, our winter run steelhead are a very difficult quarry. They usually move quickly through the short lower sections where fishing is allowed.  Even if you can find them, you can pass a fly right in front of their nose time after time without provoking a response, although sometimes they will bite. And in many years like this one, the water isn’t clear enough for flies for months. They are a lot easier to catch on roe, but as a fly fisher I don’t find that very satisfying. I recommend you try the fall run on the Klamath and its tributaries, in late September or October.  They bite flies much more readily and often hold in riffles where fly fishers have an advantage. Good luck, Mark Vinsel

Response:

Yes, that will work, but just remember, like with big trout, you must put the fly in front of their nose.  It might take something like a heavily weighted stonefly nymph to do the trick.  The rod wt. is OK, I have landed steelhead on my Orvis Western Spring Creek 4 wt.  If i am targeting steelhead though, I usually take a 6 or 7.  A fly I’ve had luck with on small strams that are ahallow and clear where you and the fish can see each other, is a Black Diamond (first tyed in Black Diamond, Washington).  If you’re interested and can’t find the pattern, give a yell – be glad to provide it. Burton Hawley, Corvallis, OR

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although I’m an experienced flyfisher, I really don’t know anything about flyfishing for steelhead.  What are the best tactics and flies to use for steelhead?  What is the best equipment and setup?  I have 7wt equipment.  Is this sufficient? I’ll be trying the Big Sur River just south of Monterey Calif. on Wednesday.   I figure I’ll use dark flies and quarter the stream.  It’s not a deep river so I’m going to use a floating line and let the weight of the fly do the work of getting down to the fish. So, what do you think?  Am I on the right track? Thanks Bob Moss Landing, Ca.

Response:

Lots of good books on the topic, especially Advanced Steelhead Flyfishing that seems to focus on your area.  Flies are typically bright streamers and wild marabou patterns, though some folks prefer to fish darker flies that actually look like something alive.  Salmon egg patterns are used alot. Typical tactic is to flip it out 45 degrees to current and drift, pulling line in to cover water completely before moving a few steps.  Floating line is common(specail steelhead line is flaoting and designed for winter usage), sometimes with longer leaders with heavy flys to sink. Monofilament shock obsorbers are common as well.  So much has been written, I couldn’t do it justice.  Like most new water, its probably good to get a guide. Tom      

Response:

Although I’m an experienced flyfisher, I really don’t know anything about flyfishing for steelhead.  What are the best tactics and flies to use for steelhead?  What is the best equipment and setup?  I have 7wt equipment.  Is this sufficient? I’ll be trying the Big Sur River just south of Monterey Calif. on Wednesday.   I figure I’ll use dark flies and quarter the stream.  It’s not a deep river so I’m going to use a floating line and let the weight of the fly do the work of getting down to the fish. So, what do you think?  Am I on the right track? Thanks Bob Moss Landing, Ca.

Response:

Yes you are.  I would suggest you get a copy of both Dry Line Steelhead by Bill McMillan and Greased Line Fishing for Salmon (and Steelhead) by Jock Scott.  They’re the bibles.

Response:

Question:

Good flies?   Try something like a black girdle bug with yellow rubber legs.

I’ve also had good luck with a long shank hook (8-4), white marabou tail ( long) body of gold tinsle chenille, palmer wrapped with dark hackle and very small lead eyes or lead wraps forward… looks like the little minnows that smallies love…. Good Luck / /—– /     Bob Bowes |/         |     Defense Systems Divison |   ^   ^   |     Lockheed Sanders Inc |     &     |     Merrimack NH 03045     _/   /      (603)-885-6779     ___ /

Response:

| I’ll be in West Virginia  from 6/7 through 6/13 and | I’ll have three days an a couple of evenings free to | chase smallmouths.   I’m staying at Pipestem State | Park on the New River. | | I’ve never tried smallmouths on moving water | before, so any advice will be appreciated.  I’ll be | using a fly rod but want advice from all anglers.   | I find I can adapt other techniques to fly fishing | quite nicely.  I’ve had great luck with Bay stripers, | landlocked stripers, black bass, ocean pearch, rock | fish, etc. Chip, I have fished the upper Potomac quite a bit for smallmouth and we’re basically talking about the same conditions here. The most efficient technique I have found for spring and fall is a two-inch floating Rapala on ultralight spinning tackle. Spinners work well, too, but they get hung up alot in shallow water, which is where the active fish are. The Rapala dives when retrieved and lets you effectively fish topwater and down to a couple of feet. While I’m not a big fan of spin fishing, I usually fish from a canoe where fly casting is a little awkward. To fly fish I usually beach the canoe and wade. I also use an ultralight casting outfit, though the Rapala is a little too light for it. Works fine with a junior size sluggo (no weight added) and a Zara Spook. For fly fishing in the evening, try deer hair bass bugs. I use patterns tied on #4 hooks and a 6-weight line/rod combination. You could go heavier, but since river smallmouth in this area tend to be on the small side, the light tackle adds to the fun. If there’s alot of glare on the water and/or the fish aren’t coming to the surface, I use a muddler minnow with a little lead tied into it. If you want to take the quality over quantity approach and stalk the larger fish, bring an 8-weight rod and proportionately larger flies. If you’ve never caught smallmouth in moving water, you’re in for a treat, especially with light tackle. You’ll find alot of fish going airborne once they’re hooked. Good luck. —

Response:

Park on the New River. I’ve never tried smallmouths on moving water before, so any advice will be appreciated.  I’ll be using a fly rod but want advice from all anglers.

Depressions, ledges, side pools – all are good holding and cruising zones.   With flies, I often made long casts and retrieved in any old way, as long as they followed.   Then when they all came running in close, I’d work the fly more carefully, often seeing them dare each other to take the fly, and eventually setting the hook when the big one bit down. Good flies?   Try something like a black girdle bug with yellow rubber legs. Thomas Gilg

Response:

I’ll be in West Virginia  from 6/7 through 6/13 and I’ll have three days an a couple of evenings free to chase smallmouths.   I’m staying at Pipestem State Park on the New River. I’ve never tried smallmouths on moving water before, so any advice will be appreciated.  I’ll be using a fly rod but want advice from all anglers.   I find I can adapt other techniques to fly fishing quite nicely.  I’ve had great luck with Bay stripers, landlocked stripers, black bass, ocean pearch, rock fish, etc.

Response: