Question:

Nothing ventured, nothing gained…go for it.  My experience on Lakes Michigan and Superior in a 24-ft cabin boat has been good, but I venture out with radar, GPS-chartplotter, Loran, 2 VHF radios, 2 depthfinders, and a backup 15-hp outboard motor.  And I nearly always see, at the boat launch, some crusty old fisherman heading out in a 14-ft jon boat with 25-hp outboard…amazing balls. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

Unless you get 4 miles to the gallon, forget it.  1/3 out, 1/3 in and a 1/3 in reserve.  Tuna requires trolling, lots at about 8-9 mph.  Not enough fuel capacity, unless the albies get inside of about 10 miles.  I have a 21′ and carry 67 gallon, and get about 2 mpg and I won’t do it.  Post a request to be a hitchhiker on the www.Coastsidefishingclub.com board and you will get a ride and live to fish again. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you. I’ve gone 20-30 miles in the Atlantic in smaller boats than that. You really need expertise in weather observation, a high antenna on a fixed, not portable, VHF radio, an extra battery and enough smarts to know when not to go out. And bring along a spare six gallon tank and hose. Try going out in the company of a couple of boats. And buy yourself some Type I life jackets, the real deal kind, and consider an EPIRB. Make sure you have a way to climb back in your boat if you get knocked overboard. Same here.  The buddy system applies.  Dont’ quite agree with the 6 gallon tank theory, however.  That would get me about 5 miles closer before I choke…..

Response:

Hello, Thanks for the replies and will not venture out without the recommendations. No EPIRB here. Just some safety flares. The boats a 1990 Bayliner cuddy, dual batteries, reliable with rebuilt powerhead. I bought this second hand and always thought it had a 30gallon tank. I always refill the tank before a trip so dont know how much it really holds..lol. thanks! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is all well and good. It is not the size of the boat in question. The boat you mention obviously held a lot more than 30 gallons of fuel. I would also strongly suspect that he had more than a hand held VHF for emergency communication needs. Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Tred Barta made his name fishing bigeyes 85-90 miles out of Shinnecock Inlet in the "Randi Strike", a 19′ Mako CC. That was 25 years ago.

Response:

Be nice Harry… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Thanks for the replies and will not venture out without the recommendations. No EPIRB here. Just some safety flares. The boats a 1990 Bayliner cuddy, dual batteries, reliable with rebuilt powerhead. I bought this second hand and always thought it had a 30gallon tank. I always refill the tank before a trip so dont know how much it really holds..lol. thanks! This is all well and good. It is not the size of the boat in question. The boat you mention obviously held a lot more than 30 gallons of fuel. I would also strongly suspect that he had more than a hand held VHF for emergency communication needs. Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Tred Barta made his name fishing bigeyes 85-90 miles out of Shinnecock Inlet in the "Randi Strike", a 19′ Mako CC. That was 25 years ago.

Response:

Be nice Harry…

How can he? He’s the consummate evildoer of this NG. — Skipper

Response:

Hello, Thanks for the replies and will not venture out without the recommendations. No EPIRB here. Just some safety flares. The boats a 1990 Bayliner cuddy, dual batteries, reliable with rebuilt powerhead. I bought this second hand and always thought it had a 30gallon tank. I always refill the tank before a trip so dont know how much it really holds..lol. thanks!

Yikes!  Is it a Force outboard?  I wouldn’t trust that setup, 13 years old, offshore.  Especially if you don’t know how much gas it holds.  How old are the batteries?  Do you have towing insurance?  Just some more questions to think about…

Response:

JAX has just reduced his percentage of useful posts to about 8% with the latests posts…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ben thur, dun dat writes to tell us just how scared he is of the water with: (way to go, bt,dd) geesh.  another guy tied to the dock when the wind is greater than 8 knots and telling how safety conscious he is. Like Harry, I would strongly suggest an installed VHF with tall antenna – hand held only broadcast 3-5 miles with their 3 watt output max. (you might get a little better in ideal conditions – but don’t bet your life on it! Installed will get you up to around 25 mile range fairly reliably (potential further)- 25 watts out put makes a world of difference. I also agree that EPIRB would be a good idea. But definitely do not trust the hand held VHF to get you help in a jam. Dan touched on what may be an even bigger concern – 30 gallon gas tank. You state that you have a 120 HP. Is this an outboard or I/OF? What is your gas consumption = MPG? If this is a gas I/OF – very common in 20′ cuddies I would be very concerned about getting out 20 miles and back on that amount of fuel. If you hit any surprises in weather – cut MPG in half or more! Most I/Os on that size boat will get around 2 -3 MPG in reasonably calm conditions. Not a lot of room for error. Weather is the real wildcard. Pick your days and keep an eye on the sky. I have been out 20 miles in a center console about that size off Hatters, NC. It is doable…but keep a real close eye on the weather — gets pretty breezy & rough in the area you are talking about. I fished on a charter in that basic area a couple of years ago – charter boat was mid 30′ bridge boat – we got tossed around pretty good. About six weeks ago I was fishing out of Ft. Lauderdale.  We ended up a bit over 20 miles out before we gave up on fishing and decided to go to Bimini (Bahamas).  I found it on my GPSmap 76 and off we went.  It was 58 miles from port to port and we made the trip back in just over two hours.  The amazing part is that we burned only 28 gallons of gas on this 116 mile round trip with at least a hour of trolling included.  We were in my 20′ center console with a 115 four stroke. It’s all a matter of sea conditions and the weather.  This was an incredibly flat day with clear skies.  We were prepared to leave the boat in Bimini and fly back as a last resort if the weather went to hell on us.  This was one of those stupid "so I can say I was there" trips. Typically I will go out only 15 – 20 miles.  At that point there are still plenty of other boats in the area and usually cell phone coverage if the VHF craps out. Are you sure you only have a 30 gallon fuel tank?  That would be my #1 concern.  The handheld VHF would be right there at #2. Dan Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

Well, I’ve never been "offshore" except twice around Cape Caution, but…    I agree about the redundancy. Get, at the least, a good "get-you-home" kicker with a separate fuel tank.    An in-dash VHF is under $200 – why not? And it sounds like an EPIRB is a good idea too.    Another good idea would be an inflatable dinghy to get into if the boat DOES sink. "Real" offshore boats have special emergency rafts that autoinflate, etc. but you probably don’t need to go that far.    And I can never understand boaters who don’t know how much fuel they carry, or what their range is! DEFINELY find out what your range is, and the range of your kicker, before venturing any distance. Lloyd Sumpter "Valkyrie" Campion 18 – 20 gals, 110mile range – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Thanks for the replies and will not venture out without the recommendations. No EPIRB here. Just some safety flares. The boats a 1990 Bayliner cuddy, dual batteries, reliable with rebuilt powerhead. I bought this second hand and always thought it had a 30gallon tank. I always refill the tank before a trip so dont know how much it really holds..lol. thanks! This is all well and good. It is not the size of the boat in question. The boat you mention obviously held a lot more than 30 gallons of fuel. I would also strongly suspect that he had more than a hand held VHF for emergency communication needs. Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Tred Barta made his name fishing bigeyes 85-90 miles out of Shinnecock Inlet in the "Randi Strike", a 19′ Mako CC. That was 25 years ago.

Response:

Your comments on redundancy are right on the money in my experience. On the other hand, I’ve seen those "gentle blue water rollers" break onto the deck of a 50 footer.  On a 50 foot boat that just creates a little commotion for a few seconds, but in a 20 foot cuddy you’re likely to get a sinking sensation. Looking beyond gear failure, there are some other risks difficult to avoid such as late afternoon thunderstorms, fast moving cold fronts, and breaking conditions in the inlets caused by tide and offshore swells.  Things can change in a hurry even on a day that starts board flat and looks stable.  Important to remember that small boats have small safety margins. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I always have been told and adhered to the redundancy rule. A backup for everything when going off-shore. Such as engines, fuel tanks, radios, batteries(you got that covered), safety equipment, food, water etc. Are you sure you want to trust everything to your set up with no redundancy? I spend my time in the mid Chesapeake Bay in a 26′ Bayliner. The rollers there can get pretty nasty with high frequency four to six footers. I’ve been told blue water rollers are more gentle because of the lower frequency. Your seamanship is to be applauded, but I suggest you adopt more redundancy.

Response:

I always have been told and adhered to the redundancy rule. A backup for everything when going off-shore. Such as engines, fuel tanks, radios, batteries(you got that covered), safety equipment, food, water etc. Are you sure you want to trust everything to your set up with no redundancy? I spend my time in the mid Chesapeake Bay in a 26′ Bayliner. The rollers there can get pretty nasty with high frequency four to six footers. I’ve been told blue water rollers are more gentle because of the lower frequency. Your seamanship is to be applauded, but I suggest you adopt more redundancy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Thanks for the replies and will not venture out without the recommendations. No EPIRB here. Just some safety flares. The boats a 1990 Bayliner cuddy, dual batteries, reliable with rebuilt powerhead. I bought this second hand and always thought it had a 30gallon tank. I always refill the tank before a trip so dont know how much it really holds..lol. thanks! This is all well and good. It is not the size of the boat in question. The boat you mention obviously held a lot more than 30 gallons of fuel. I would also strongly suspect that he had more than a hand held VHF for emergency communication needs. Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Tred Barta made his name fishing bigeyes 85-90 miles out of Shinnecock Inlet in the "Randi Strike", a 19′ Mako CC. That was 25 years ago.

Response:

ben thur, dun dat writes to tell us just how scared he is of the water with: (way to go, bt,dd) geesh.  another guy tied to the dock when the wind is greater than 8 knots and telling how safety conscious he is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Like Harry, I would strongly suggest an installed VHF with tall antenna – hand held only broadcast 3-5 miles with their 3 watt output max. (you might get a little better in ideal conditions – but don’t bet your life on it! Installed will get you up to around 25 mile range fairly reliably (potential further)- 25 watts out put makes a world of difference. I also agree that EPIRB would be a good idea. But definitely do not trust the hand held VHF to get you help in a jam. Dan touched on what may be an even bigger concern – 30 gallon gas tank. You state that you have a 120 HP. Is this an outboard or I/OF? What is your gas consumption = MPG? If this is a gas I/OF – very common in 20′ cuddies I would be very concerned about getting out 20 miles and back on that amount of fuel. If you hit any surprises in weather – cut MPG in half or more! Most I/Os on that size boat will get around 2 -3 MPG in reasonably calm conditions. Not a lot of room for error. Weather is the real wildcard. Pick your days and keep an eye on the sky. I have been out 20 miles in a center console about that size off Hatters, NC. It is doable…but keep a real close eye on the weather — gets pretty breezy & rough in the area you are talking about. I fished on a charter in that basic area a couple of years ago – charter boat was mid 30′ bridge boat – we got tossed around pretty good. About six weeks ago I was fishing out of Ft. Lauderdale.  We ended up a bit over 20 miles out before we gave up on fishing and decided to go to Bimini (Bahamas).  I found it on my GPSmap 76 and off we went.  It was 58 miles from port to port and we made the trip back in just over two hours.  The amazing part is that we burned only 28 gallons of gas on this 116 mile round trip with at least a hour of trolling included.  We were in my 20′ center console with a 115 four stroke. It’s all a matter of sea conditions and the weather.  This was an incredibly flat day with clear skies.  We were prepared to leave the boat in Bimini and fly back as a last resort if the weather went to hell on us.  This was one of those stupid "so I can say I was there" trips. Typically I will go out only 15 – 20 miles.  At that point there are still plenty of other boats in the area and usually cell phone coverage if the VHF craps out. Are you sure you only have a 30 gallon fuel tank?  That would be my #1 concern.  The handheld VHF would be right there at #2. Dan Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

Like Harry, I would strongly suggest an installed VHF with tall antenna – hand held only broadcast 3-5 miles with their 3 watt output max. (you might get a little better in ideal conditions – but don’t bet your life on it! Installed will get you up to around 25 mile range fairly reliably (potential further)- 25 watts out put makes a world of difference. I also agree that EPIRB would be a good idea. But definitely do not trust the hand held VHF to get you help in a jam. Dan touched on what may be an even bigger concern – 30 gallon gas tank. You state that you have a 120 HP. Is this an outboard or I/OF? What is your gas consumption = MPG? If this is a gas I/OF – very common in 20′ cuddies I would be very concerned about getting out 20 miles and back on that amount of fuel. If you hit any surprises in weather – cut MPG in half or more! Most I/Os on that size boat will get around 2 -3 MPG in reasonably calm conditions. Not a lot of room for error. Weather is the real wildcard. Pick your days and keep an eye on the sky. I have been out 20 miles in a center console about that size off Hatters, NC. It is doable…but keep a real close eye on the weather — gets pretty breezy & rough in the area you are talking about. I fished on a charter in that basic area a couple of years ago – charter boat was mid 30′ bridge boat – we got tossed around pretty good.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About six weeks ago I was fishing out of Ft. Lauderdale.  We ended up a bit over 20 miles out before we gave up on fishing and decided to go to Bimini (Bahamas).  I found it on my GPSmap 76 and off we went.  It was 58 miles from port to port and we made the trip back in just over two hours.  The amazing part is that we burned only 28 gallons of gas on this 116 mile round trip with at least a hour of trolling included.  We were in my 20′ center console with a 115 four stroke. It’s all a matter of sea conditions and the weather.  This was an incredibly flat day with clear skies.  We were prepared to leave the boat in Bimini and fly back as a last resort if the weather went to hell on us.  This was one of those stupid "so I can say I was there" trips. Typically I will go out only 15 – 20 miles.  At that point there are still plenty of other boats in the area and usually cell phone coverage if the VHF craps out. Are you sure you only have a 30 gallon fuel tank?  That would be my #1 concern.  The handheld VHF would be right there at #2. Dan Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy?

Tred Barta made his name fishing bigeyes 85-90 miles out of Shinnecock Inlet in the "Randi Strike", a 19′ Mako CC. That was 25 years ago.

Response:

This is all well and good. It is not the size of the boat in question. The boat you mention obviously held a lot more than 30 gallons of fuel. I would also strongly suspect that he had more than a hand held VHF for emergency communication needs.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Tred Barta made his name fishing bigeyes 85-90 miles out of Shinnecock Inlet in the "Randi Strike", a 19′ Mako CC. That was 25 years ago.

Response:

30 gallons sounds awfully small for a 20 ft. boat.  

Agreed.  And 120Hp seems like a very small engine, as well. My 18′ CC has a 150HP Merc OB and a 60-gallon tank.   I would strongly advise against going further out, without making some major adjustments in his capabilities. e.g. installing more fuel capacity, and being almost fanatical about weather-watching. I’ve been 40-50 miles out (in a commercial fishing boat) in the Pacific out of Oregon, and it was pretty scary.  Unlike the short-period waves we have in the Gulf, these were HUGE rollers, a city block or more thick.  I’d hate to be out there when they started kicking up. 120hp and 30 gallons of gas, in a 20 footer? No way. Ron M.

Response:

Jim,     I’d be surprised if your handheld VHF was strong enough, 25 miles out, to reach shore without an external antenna. Paul — "The opinions expressed in the article are the opinions of the author, not of Ford Motor Company. " – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

I go out about 20 miles off Boston Harbor sometimes in my 19 foot boat, but only when there is flat water and a stable high presure area in place with little chance of bad weather kicking up. I keep my vhf on and monitor the weather channel and radio stations for any surprize weather. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

About six weeks ago I was fishing out of Ft. Lauderdale.  We ended up a bit over 20 miles out before we gave up on fishing and decided to go to Bimini (Bahamas).  I found it on my GPSmap 76 and off we went.  It was 58 miles from port to port and we made the trip back in just over two hours.  The amazing part is that we burned only 28 gallons of gas on this 116 mile round trip with at least a hour of trolling included.  We were in my 20′ center console with a 115 four stroke. It’s all a matter of sea conditions and the weather.  This was an incredibly flat day with clear skies.  We were prepared to leave the boat in Bimini and fly back as a last resort if the weather went to hell on us.  This was one of those stupid "so I can say I was there" trips. Typically I will go out only 15 – 20 miles.  At that point there are still plenty of other boats in the area and usually cell phone coverage if the VHF craps out. Are you sure you only have a 30 gallon fuel tank?  That would be my #1 concern.  The handheld VHF would be right there at #2. Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

30 gallons sounds awfully small for a 20 ft. boat.  I’ve got a 26′ powercat with twin 150’s and 180 gallons of fuel and I am always a little nervous (rightly so) about going off more than 20 miles.  A handheld VHF will NOT cut it, as Dan mentioned, nor the 30 gallon fuel tank.  You just can’t trust the weather service with forcasts.  They might say that the winds will pick up in 24 hours, but all of the sudden, you are in 20 kt winds.  Then you are in real trouble.  Usually I burn about 65 gal on a normal 12 hour trolling trip, but once, when the weather turn on me prematurely, it took about 130 gal to get home in terribly steep head seas. In general, I wouldn’t recommend it.  I’m usually the smallest boat out in the deep and I definitely feel it when the weather turns.  There are way too many things that go wrong. BTW, you didn’t mention an EPIRB in your list… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

Response:

Hello, I fish regularly at Halfmoon Bay up to Pacifca (CA) for salmon, halibut, etc. I want to go out farther for Albacore but have never ventured more than a couple miles offshore. I have fished through 10ft swells but never any high winds. With my etrex GPS and handheld VHF, can I go out 25 miles offshore in my 120HP, 30gallons, 20ft cuddy or does that sound crazy? Any opinions would be appreciated…thank you.

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Question:

Try looking into books by Oliver Edwards.

Response:

This year I want to try some realistic fly tying. No, not for fishing but for the fun of it. (More honestly to look how good I can handle it!) If anyone can give me some advice on it I would deeply appreciate it. I

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They write about mind control lasers affecting your head, and why you should wear tinfoil, but tinfoil acts as a receiver, so you get MORE of the mind control rays (are just past X-ray range, near Gamma rays. Probably are Gamma rays, actually.) Don’t tell my mother-in-law!  I finally convinced her to wear the aluminum foil helmet (made it myself, actually), and I don’t want to lose credibility with her…

when i wear my foil helmet i sound like a truck in reverse *beep beep beep* headkase – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

No, check it out, like, the device is magnetic, right? And, with enough carefull precision and some-one else’s infected butt one can carefully maneouver the device out through one’s mouth like they did in -now what was that k-ko0l christopher lambert movie in the 80’s again? Anyway, I’ve succeeded in removing mine and am currently on the road towards Mexico with a jammer in my left testicle – if all goes to plan the world will be obliterated by 7 ‘o clock this evening. I can’t give you any more details – Wish me luck. I HEAR THE OLD ONES SPEAK TO ME THROUGH JOHN TRAVOLTA’S RECTUM!!! AND STILL, THE PURPOSE OF LIFE HAS NOT YET DAWNED ON ME!!! PLACE YOUR NIPPLE IN MY MOUTH AND I WILL SHOW YOU ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW!!! GIVE ME MY ORANGE JUICE!!! SHMOO!!! -WIZDUMB. (H3′Z S0 SL1CK) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They write about mind control lasers affecting your head, and why you should wear tinfoil, but tinfoil acts as a receiver, so you get MORE  of the mind control rays (are just past X-ray range, near Gamma rays.  Probably are Gamma rays, actually.) Don’t tell my mother-in-law!  I finally convinced her to wear the aluminum foil helmet (made it myself, actually), and I don’t want to lose  credibility with her… when i wear my foil helmet i sound like a truck in reverse *beep beep beep* headkase

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hehe made me smile

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hehe made me smile

me too

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i was just let in on a conspiracy from a guy in a black suburban with a flat top…. he had lepard print cup holders and one of those bead seat covers on the passenger side… he started "have you ever met a kid that wanted to be a preast?" "no" i replied as i started out the door he grabbed me and pulled me back in proclaiming i was being watched now. i asked by who, only to see a group of priests across the street.. he sped away, me still in the seat and he started to unveil all he knew. Priests don’t grow up, there aliens… and the pope is a prince… now, whenever a certain area is to be breached they down what the call a faggit, or a fag as we call them to go hit on all the locals, being a fag he is not seen as a threat.. so he integrates himself into the surroundings… quetly making money here and there while he can.  At night time he is contacted in his basement and beams all his money to the collective, now.. when enough money is reached the collective buys what they call a ultimate money raising house… or church, with the tax free income from the brain washed populi that fills the collection baskets and the rich and famous using there own tax evading ways (set up by the aliens using another node that comes out of the spine)[acid is the way to get around this node... hence the alien populis created drug charges for the drug... this also explains why the 60's/early 70's where creative times... we thought for ourselves] now, jesus was really an alien named bob that used his powers for good… the aliens being evil nailed him to a piece of wood and raped him… many times (there all gay remember) now back to the preists of doom. They followed us down the local blvd. using penis shaped ships… they were cloaked but we say them on the acid boys saburben heat sensors… they cornered us in a ally, when all of a sudden he started to bump suvivor by destiny’s child… he then said the aliens hated women and bad music… and destiny’s child was the worst enemy sense there all secretly lesbain.  which goes into another conspiracy regarding Nuns… but that will come at another time… if your not into acid he also revieled that nude pictures of the golden girls in your wallet also helped cancel out the node. Tyler.

Response:

They write about mind control lasers affecting your head, and why you should wear tinfoil, but tinfoil acts as a receiver, so you get MORE of the mind control rays (are just past X-ray range, near Gamma rays. Probably are Gamma rays, actually.)

Don’t tell my mother-in-law!  I finally convinced her to wear the aluminum foil helmet (made it myself, actually), and I don’t want to lose credibility with her…

Response:

Well, I’ve been reading up on conspiracy theories. Why? probably because my tinfoil isn’t working. Well, here’s a summary of what’s actually going on: The Illuminati do have orbital mind control lasers. But they’re not the Illuminati, that’s just a front. They’re aliens. Government aliens. And they have written many of the conspiracy theories – yeas, especially "Secret Squirrel." They write about mind control lasers affecting your head, and why you should wear tinfoil, but tinfoil acts as a receiver, so you get MORE of the mind control rays (are just past X-ray range, near Gamma rays. Probably are Gamma rays, actually.) They write about alien implants, and even abduct people to spread these theories, always being sure to have them believe the implants are in their heads. Of course, people even tell them, even if they don’t believe them, that it is all in their heads. But is it? No, that’s the conspiracy. You see, they are putting the mind control chips in your ass. How does it work? well, everyone has nerves in their ass, which it attaches to. Very few people check their ass for scars, so few people notice. It’s not active all the time, just when they really need it, and they have to reabduct people every few months to change the batteries. What are the signs? Hemmorhoids. Hemmorhoids are a sure sign you are allergic to the implant, or have just had it replaced and are still sore from the implantation. Other signs include an overwhelming desire to scream "you are a fucking idiot" at random people, especially scientologists. Scientologists are not immune, but are usually controlled by a rival, even more evil, conspiracy. You see, these conspiracies have been at war for thousands of years. The Illuminati are against Scientology, and if they control your ass, will force you to hate John Travolta. But you hated John Travolta before? Yes, this is what they want you to think. Of course, their is a solution. Wrapping your head in tinfoil only exposes you to MORE mindcontrol rays (tinfoil works like an antenna). So, what you need to do instead, is wrap your ass in duct tape. Really. And don’t ever take it off at night, for that is what they want you to do. When you are sleeping is the most important time to wear the duct tape, as that is when they will try to abduct you. Also, to stop them, boobytrap your ass. Really. Moustraps on the outside of the duct tape work good, and can be ducttaped on themselves. Rattraps work even better, but have the drawback of occasionally trapping a rat on your ass, which is not a fun thing, especially if rats have a natural tendency to search your ass for food. Glue mousetraps should not be worn, as they tend to trap, well, the chair you sit on, which is rarely a good thing. Garlic, of course, can always be used in addition to the traps, just in case the Illuminati are allergic to it. Never use mines or explosives, just in case the Illuminati do trigger your ass. And remember, all is not what it seems, especially with tinfoil on your head and ducttape on your ass. — — theoneflasehaddock formerly of deja.com AIM – the1flasehaddock Suspected GLOBAL VILLAGE IDIOT. founder of the ‘Royal Discordian Opposition to the Cursed Number after Nine and Before Seven’ Known mad Imposter Fuckwit, you hatter bastards

Response:

Well, I’ve been reading up on conspiracy theories. Why? probably because my tinfoil isn’t working. Well, here’s a summary of what’s actually going on: Read GURPS Illuminati. Then remember that the author, Nigel Findley, died shortly after the book was published. It has the most interesting version of the OMCL’s you can find.

I’ve been meaning to read that one for a while, I keep hearing how good it is, I just never get around to finding a copy. Instead, I sit at a computer and troll. Yay. — — theoneflasehaddock formerly of deja.com AIM – the1flasehaddock Suspected GLOBAL VILLAGE IDIOT. founder of the ‘Royal Discordian Opposition to the Cursed Number after Nine and Before Seven’ Known mad Imposter Fuckwit, you hatter bastards

Response:

: Well, I’ve been reading up on conspiracy theories. Why? probably because my : tinfoil isn’t working. Well, here’s a summary of what’s actually going on: : : The Illuminati do have orbital mind control lasers. But they’re not the : Illuminati, that’s just a front. They’re aliens. Government aliens. And they : have written many of the conspiracy theories – yeas, especially "Secret : Squirrel." They write about mind control lasers affecting your head, and why : you should wear tinfoil, but tinfoil acts as a receiver, so you get MORE of : the mind control rays (are just past X-ray range, near Gamma rays. Probably : are Gamma rays, actually.) You need to use ARSCC-approved tinfoil hat to keep the mind control waves out of your head.  The ARSCC R&D Lab guarantees they are effective against even Scientology’s toadally gnarly Operating Thetans who can kill you with a thought. Perry Scott Co$ Escapee (ARSCC = alt.religion.scientology Central Committee.  It does not exist.  Really!  Now, see this red light?  … )

Response:

Well, I’ve been reading up on conspiracy theories. Why? probably because my tinfoil isn’t working. Well, here’s a summary of what’s actually going on:

Read GURPS Illuminati. Then remember that the author, Nigel Findley, died shortly after the book was published. It has the most interesting version of the OMCL’s you can find. —   /   Marc Etienne Lachance, HOKuM, LMAA  /<  Episkopos without a cabal, /____ Non-Leader of Something or Another.

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Ever read "Foucault’s Pendulum"? I can’t look at another conspiracy theory the same, now. But, here’s mine:  there _is_ a conspiracy, only it’s not perpetrated by anyone in control of any government, or supergovernment, or occult organisation, or racial group or whatever.  It’s perpetrated by a wide variety of people with enough money not to worry about where their next meal is coming from, or about whether they’ll have a place to sleep, who are so caught up in trying to find some outside, all-encompassing explanation for why they got turned down at the bank for that loan for a jetski, or why Tammy didn’t win first at her school athletics day, or why Uncle Rob got cancer, that they lose sight of the places where they really _are_ being manipulated. Instead of spending some time thinking about (and getting mad about) the unequal distribution of resources (particularly food, but money can always by food, even in a famine) between the First and Third World, they get all anti about GE and how horrible it is that they’re forced to eat fly genes in those nice, fresh tomatoes.   Instead of getting active about overpopulation and/or too-low birth rates, they crow and complain when the government tries to steal _their_ money to build another road or add another few dollars to some superannuation scheme. Instead of seeing that eating unhealthily, not exercising, not going for regular check-ups and not following medical advice, they complain that it’s actually cellphones and suppressed anger and rays from spy satellites that makes them sick.     Instead of doing something constructive to lower the costs of medication to people in other countries (particularly for AIDS medication in Central Africa) to a level that is actually something lower than ten times their yearly income for a year-long course, they moan and whinge about how it’s actually vaccination that creates all the terrible sicknesses that we see in our everyday suburban, middle-class neighbourhood. I could (and will) go on about this, but you get the idea……. Love you heaps, Altair "We didn’t know they were going to drop a space station on us." -Trevor Canty, New Zealand fishing boat skipper, quoted in the New Zealand Herald, March 23, 2001. Coven of the Triple Moon: http://www.geocities.com.Paris/Cafe/8564/

Response:

Question:

Hey Louie, How about a Labrador Clave in 2003?

I’ve been dreaming of going to Labrador for years now, and I have made unfirm plans to do it in 2002 or 2003 – need that long to save up the $3000 for a week. My goal was to fish for Arctic Char, the hell with the brook trout. but a clave? hmmm…. Flyfish

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I’ve been dreaming of going to Labrador for years now, …

Me too, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before I spend one, red US penny (that’s $49.95 Canadian) in a province that requires non-residents to have a guide. I don’t mind hiring a guide for a day or two or paying a rather substantial amount for a fishing license, but I’ll be damned if I’ll travel to fish somewhere where I can’t wet a line by myself. My goal was to fish for Arctic Char, the hell with the brook trout.

I suppose that’s because you live in Maine, but for me a 6 lb brookie would be a trophy of a lifetime. — Ken Fortenberry

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Doesn’t  NFLD. require guides only for designated salmon waters, and not trout?? Tim Lysyk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been dreaming of going to Labrador for years now, … Me too, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before I spend one, red US penny (that’s $49.95 Canadian) in a province that requires non-residents to have a guide. I don’t mind hiring a guide for a day or two or paying a rather substantial amount for a fishing license, but I’ll be damned if I’ll travel to fish somewhere where I can’t wet a line by myself. My goal was to fish for Arctic Char, the hell with the brook trout. I suppose that’s because you live in Maine, but for me a 6 lb brookie would be a trophy of a lifetime. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Doesn’t  NFLD. require guides only for designated salmon waters, and not trout??

That sounds like New Brunswick. Newfoundland/Labrador requires guides for non-residents all the time and everywhere except right next to the highway on the Churchill River if I’m not mistaken. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Guys;   If Ken F. doesn’t like the "guide" idea–and I certainly agree–how about going to northern Quebec?. Same general area–just across the border–and Quebec doesn’t require "guides". I’m going to fish the Caniapisceau this summer–without guides. I’ve fished in Newfoundland with "guides"–and if you’ve ever flyfished there–you KNOW why I’ve put the word "guides" in quotes. The "guides" are simply "babysitters" so the sport won’t get lost. They do absolutely nothing that the word guide means to us. This is –to put it rather bluntly–a way to get foreigners to pay welfare for those "guides".    Dave M

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Doesn’t  NFLD. require guides only for designated salmon waters, and not trout??

Here’s the (somewhat hard to find) URL, Tim; http://www.gov.nf.ca/forest/wildlife/licences/information.htm#Fishing To hell with the Newfies, I’ll never fish Labrador till these laws are changed, even at the risk of cutting my nose off to spite my face. — Ken Fortenberry

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Talk about confusing regulations. I remembered something about being able to fish without a guide, but had forgotten about the part that limited you to within 800 m of a provincial highway. A number of years ago my wife and I had a pair of free airplane tickets. We comnsidered going to Nfld. to fish, but got turned off by the regulations. We went to Victoria instead. Tim Lysyk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Doesn’t  NFLD. require guides only for designated salmon waters, and not trout?? Here’s the (somewhat hard to find) URL, Tim; http://www.gov.nf.ca/forest/wildlife/licences/information.htm#Fishing To hell with the Newfies, I’ll never fish Labrador till these laws are changed, even at the risk of cutting my nose off to spite my face. — Ken Fortenberry

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Tim Lysyk: Doesn’t  NFLD. require guides only for designated salmon waters, and not trout??

Labrador (Canada?) requires 1 guide for every two people above a certain lattitude.  Having fished in Labrador for the past five years, I can understand why they would have that rule.  I sure as hell would not be on the Atikonak River without a guide, even though I know the river well.  You can fish in Labrador without a guide as long as you stay within a certain distance (a mile?) of a road.  Things change very quickly — water level, temperature, rain to snow.  In the five years I have been going to Labrador, I know of 6 or 7 deaths — folks that got into trouble when they were alone.   I would be willing to set up something, a mini clave if ya wanna call it that. It would have to be for only 8 people, and would cost about $2700 for a week, plus air fare. Most lodges/outfitters only have room and facilities for 8 rods.  I would stay away from eastern Labrador, areas near Happy Valley, and concentrate on places in the north, central, or northeast.  There are a number of lodges/outfitters in these areas, and fishing is wonderful, be it for brookies, arctic char (limited water), pike or lake trout. Land locked salmon are also available later in the season (late Aug-Sept), or very early in the season (June).   Air fare from Boston is about $600. But, you can drive to Lab City/Wabush (western Labrador) in two days from Boston.  You would take a float plane (Otter or Beaver) to fly from Wabush to the lodge.  That flight is usually included in the price of your stay. Dave

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dnsmartel writes: If Ken F. doesn’t like the "guide" idea–and I certainly agree–how about going to northern Quebec?. Same general area–just across the border–and Quebec doesn’t require "guides". I’m going to fish the Caniapisceau this summer–without guides. I’ve fished in Newfoundland with "guides"–and if you’ve ever flyfished there–you KNOW why I’ve put the word "guides" in quotes. The "guides" are simply "babysitters" so the sport won’t get lost. They do absolutely nothing that the word guide means to us. This is –to put it rather bluntly–a way to get foreigners to pay welfare for those "guides".   Dave M

Not true of the Labrador guides I have used.  They are good boatsmen, outdoorsmen, and fishermen.  The difference between a good guide in Labrador and a bad one is the number of fish you catch.  Also, a good one will keep you out of trouble — one did just that with my grandson two years ago.  The water I fished was treacherous and even though I know that river very well (been going there for five years), I would not want to do it without a guide.   I believe you can fish in Canada below a certain lattitude without a guide. Friends of mine have done that and in the long run, they spent as much for food, gas, and air fare getting to their digs as I did going to a lodge with experienced guides.  And, I caught more and bigger fish.  Plus someone cooked for me, I had electricity, and indoor plumbing.  <g   Dave

Response:

dnsmartel writes: … This is –to put it rather bluntly–a way to get foreigners to pay welfare for those "guides". Not true of the Labrador guides I have used. …  Also, a good one will keep you out of trouble — one did just that with my grandson two years ago.  The water I fished was treacherous and even though I know that river very well (been going there for five years), I would not want to do it without a guide. …

Bah. Dave M is right Louie. The Newfoundland/Labrador non-resident guide laws are not on the books to protect decrepit geezers and young teenagers. They are on the books to inject out-of-province dollars into a moribund economy. I don’t mind the bucks, I’d gladly pay whatever the province wants to charge for the opportunity to fish, but I really resent having to have a guide. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I suppose that’s because you live in Maine, but for me a 6 lb brookie would be a trophy of a lifetime.

For me it would too. That said, as I understand it the Arctic Char is like a brook trout on steriods, kind of like the difference between a rainbow and a steelhead. I had a line on a set of camps that specialized in sea run char up there someplace, I’ll have to see if the guy comes back to the Maine Sportman’s show later this month as that was my intended trip Flyfish

Response:

It would have to be for only 8 people, and would cost about $2700 for a week, plus air fare. Air fare from Boston is about $600.

That’s probably a couple of years fishing expenses for me. Willi

Response:

Ken Fortenberry writes: Bah. Dave M is right Louie. The Newfoundland/Labrador non-resident guide laws are not on the books to protect decrepit geezers and young teenagers. They are on the books to inject out-of-province dollars into a moribund economy. I don’t mind the bucks, I’d gladly pay whatever the province wants to charge for the opportunity to fish, but I really resent having to have a guide. —

Oh, without a doubt it is to put dollars into the provincial cash register. Labrador is a very poor province.  But, even if it was legal to fish *without* a guide, I would still hire one.  So, now I’m a decrepit old geezer?  I love your liberal intolerance.   BTW, all the folks I know that died were young, healthy, fit, know-it-all fishermen.   Dave

Response:

… So, now I’m a decrepit old geezer?  …

Now ? What do you mean "now" ? You’ve been a decrepit geezer since the Johnson administration. <pregnant pause The ANDREW Johnson administration ! <rimshot Luv ya, Louie — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

BTW, all the folks I know that died were young, healthy, fit, know-it-all fishermen.

Dammit Louie!  I haven’t said anything in this thread so why are you bringing me into it?!?!?  I know you weren’t using the above to describe Ken, he hasn’t been young since the Nixon administration — Warren Findley

Response:

I hate to reiterate, but once again I think this is a key word issue.  The key word in Dave’s post was "know-it-all".  That compound word or phase, if you please, certainly wouldn’t fit in your case warren, at least not in a sarcastic sense.  Just MMHO. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, all the folks I know that died were young, healthy, fit, know-it-all fishermen. Dammit Louie!  I haven’t said anything in this thread so why are you bringing me into it?!?!?  I know you weren’t using the above to describe Ken, he hasn’t been young since the Nixon administration — Warren Findley

Response:

Ken Fortenberry writes: The ANDREW Johnson administration ! <rimshot Luv ya, Louie — Ken Fortenberry

I knew Andy, and you, sir, are not Andy. On a more serious note:  Each year when I returned to the Atikonak, I would hear stories about who got killed and how.  They were all Canadians, usually from Labrador.  They didn’t know  where they were going or what they were doing, and it cost them their lives.  You don’t have to be in your 60s with a couple of gimpy legs and no feeling in your feet to need a guide.  I understand your wanting to get away from it all and be on your own.  That’s fine in Maine, Michigan and Montana, but in Labrador it could get you killed.  Quickly. OG

Response:

  I understand your wanting to get away from it all and be on your own.  That’s fine in Maine, Michigan and Montana, but in Labrador it could get you killed.  Quickly. OG

The same goes for Lenoir, NC and most other major cities. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

Response:

I hate to reiterate, but once again I think this is a key word issue.  The key word in Dave’s post was "know-it-all".  That compound word or phase, if you please, certainly wouldn’t fit in your case warren, at least not in a sarcastic sense.  Just MMHO.

Well, Dave sure as hell wasn’t talking about Ken because he said "young".  Ken isn’t so as old as to be farting dust yet, but he isn’t a spring chicken either Hey Ken, preemptive SPLORK! <g — Warren Findley

Response:

  Dave;   Are you referring to Umiakovic Char Camp? That’s run by Harvey Calden–he also runs Tim Pond Camps in Eustis. I’ve seen the video’s and brochures–the fishing is suppossed to be unbelieveable for big sea-run char–but it’s a very pricey camp. Of course the price of a gal. of gas was over $17 dollars/gallon–two years ago before the prices went out of sight. I have no idea what aviation fuel costs that far up north now–but it’s got to be considerably more than $17 dollars/gallon.    Dave M

Response:

On a more serious note:  Each year when I returned to the Atikonak, I would hear stories about who got killed and how.  They were all Canadians, usually from Labrador.  They didn’t know  where they were going or what they were doing, and it cost them their lives.  You don’t have to be in your 60s with a couple of gimpy legs and no feeling in your feet to need a guide.  I understand your wanting to get away from it all and be on your own.  That’s fine in Maine, Michigan and Montana, but in Labrador it could get you killed.  Quickly. OG

Dave speaks the truth.  I doubt there’s any part of the lower 48 that resembles Canada’s North for true remoteness.  Just like in a remote area of the lower 48, fly over the lower half of Northern Ontario and you’ll see at least some signs of human presence, rail lines, roads, hydro towers, cottages, harbours, floatplane bases, microwave relays, airstrips, logging roads, fire towers,  trails, etc.  I have no fear of getting lost as a straight walk in any direction will have me bumping into something man-made sooner or later.  But Canada’s real north, NWT, Nunavut, Labrador, Yukon, – once you’re away from the cities and towns there’s absolutely nothing plus the landscape is incredibly rugged and unforgiving.  I went for a walk out from the camp in NWT and I realized as a trudged north that there was probably nothing man-made between me and the Arctic ocean, 130 miles away. Even just 15 minutes out of camp, one slip and I was done for – nobody would ever find me.  And don’t rely on our armed forces for rescue either – the crews are willing but the equipment is virtually non-existant. If you’re going to the real North – hire a guide.  If you don’t, your beneficiaries will thank you. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

… If you’re going to the real North – hire a guide.  If you don’t, your beneficiaries will thank you.

There’s nothing inherently dangerous about traveling the "real North" other than relying on Her Royal Majesties Cartographers. An experienced backcountry outdoorsman would have no problem whatsoever traveling, camping and fishing in Labrador. — Ken Fortenberry

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dang warren, they raised you in montana.  what do you want??? hee hee hee fishworship wayne

Response:

This evening the venerable old pirate and myself went to a local TU chapter fund raiser. We were supposed to be joined by another but he was too tired. We got to see A.K. Best talk about Labrador Brookies and char. Holy shit are there some big fish up there. There was shot after shot of big brookies decked out in some pretty spectacular colours. Then we saw some pretty awsome char at the end. One thing I did notice is all the rods in the pictures were cane. Not a single graphite in any of the photos. Then there was the raffle after the show. Unfortunatly neither one of us won the two night stay for two people at Lakewood Camps on the Rapid River  but we both came out ahead for the night. Hey Louie, How about a Labrador Clave in 2003? Paul

Response:

Hey Louie, How about a Labrador Clave in 2003?

Funny you should mention that, I have been telling my parents that is what I want for a graduation gift <g  Of course, they will probably buy a shit load of toys for my daughter instead. . . . — Warren Findley

Response:

Question:

I have been reading many of the long threads on this newgroup and I have just one question: How do so many of you know each other so well?? Just curious. Dustin

Response:

Hang around for a while. Participate, argue, share ideas, get out on a limb, be an asshole, get huffy, find out you don’t know it all, etc.. The fairly normal way people get to know something of one another outside of family. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading many of the long threads on this newgroup and I have just one question: How do so many of you know each other so well?? Just curious. Dustin

Response:

I have been reading many of the long threads on this newgroup and I have just one question: How do so many of you know each other so well?? Just curious. Dustin

        because roff is darwinian. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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I have been reading many of the long threads on this newgroup and I have just one question: How do so many of you know each other so well?? Just curious. Dustin         because roff is darwinian. wayno

______  Roffians are all psychologists who have wives that can’t keep secrets?

Response:

        because roff is darwinian. wayno

actually wayno… it’s dahlwhinnian –waldo — Ezflyfish.com                 Blue Ridge Book Gallery Quality Gear & Service        Used & Out-of-Print Books http://www.ezflyfish.com      http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

Response:

I have been reading many of the long threads on this newgroup and I have just one question: How do so many of you know each other so well?? Just curious.

It’s just a matter of time.   There are quite a few "regulars" who post here frequently.   After reading a few thousand posts, you get a pretty good feel for who is intelligent, cultured, experienced, helpful or otherwise.   In reading the discussions, you’ll see who puts forth substantial, well-reasoned arguments and who is just a rectum.   Throughout the course of these exchanges over a wide variety of topics, you also pick up some personal information such as where we live, who is married, what we like to eat (and drink, especially drink), and what we drive.   A while back, there was even a "Who Am I" thread where many ng members abandoned their cyber anonymity and offered a short bio. The friendships (and disagreements) which have grown here at our individual keyboards also led to a ROFF conclave in May of this year where many heretofore unaquainted ROFFians actually met on the streams of North Carolina for a week of fishing, drinking, male bonding, and a few other things I’m not sure about.   Those fortunate few who attended now have faces to match the screen names and forged new friendships and respect.   (I regret I was not among them.) There’s a fine bunch of fellows here; and even if I don’t know what they look like, I’d be pleased to wet a line or quench my thirst with any of ‘em. Joe Fleischman Bel Air, MD (See, you learned something about me.)

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I have been reading many of the long threads on this newgroup and I have just one question: How do so many of you know each other so well?? Just curious. It’s just a matter of time.   There are quite a few "regulars" who post here frequently.   After reading a few thousand posts, you get a pretty good

feel     (meaningful response snipped) Joe Fleischman Bel Air, MD (See, you learned something about me.)

    i didn’t know you were a doctor from los angeles! wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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   i didn’t know you were a doctor from los angeles!

LOL.   For a while, I was often mistaken for a TV doctor in Alaska. Joe

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Or you could go to the clave and meet face to face. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hang around for a while. Participate, argue, share ideas, get out on a limb, be an asshole, get huffy, find out you don’t know it all, etc.. The fairly normal way people get to know something of one another outside of family. Dave I have been reading many of the long threads on this newgroup and I have just one question: How do so many of you know each other so well?? Just curious. Dustin

Response:

We have the same interest. Fly Fishing and Fly Tying. Thus , we know each other. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading many of the long threads on this newgroup and I have just one question: How do so many of you know each other so well?? Just curious. Dustin

Response:

yea, Big Dale, but what about the parties you get to and the controlled substances that keep coming your way.  There is an upside, you know.  Except, of course, at the Almond Boat Dock, where it’s your soul they want to save. Mark Faulkner

Mark, We all missed you at the wed, thur, and fri eve prayer meetins’. Heard tell you were at that house of sin, that den of depravity, that fuliginous pavillion on the isthmus of time, little waynos   waldo It could be worse Joe…I am still mistaken for Jerry Garcia, which realy bothers me because I thought he was STILL DEAD!!!!! Big Dale

– Ezflyfish.com                 Blue Ridge Book Gallery Quality Gear & Service        Used & Out-of-Print Books http://www.ezflyfish.com      http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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Big Dale stroked. "It could be worse Joe…I am still mistaken for Jerry Garcia" Long silence. Fire on the mountain. I’ll keep that in my head today as the Western Slope is ablaze and the USFS helicopters fill the air. No doubt of some powerful orange sunsets this evening. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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substances that keep coming your way.  

Sorry to disappoint you Mark,but I gave up the controlled substances over 25 years ago. I was always more into the wacky weed way back in my hippie days. I still enjoy the parties, but depend mostly on import beers, single malts, and sucking on a big bottle of gin.  On another subject it seems to me that the guy that got out of rehab and took up flyfishing and fly tying and reported that it was only slightly more expensive than drugs was still extremely naive. Big Dale

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We have the same interest. Fly Fishing and Fly Tying. Thus , we know each other. Paul

        ok, asadi, that "paul" disguise don’t fool ol’ wayno… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

yea, Big Dale, but what about the parties you get to and the controlled substances that keep coming your way.  There is an upside, you know.  Except, of course, at the Almond Boat Dock, where it’s your soul they want to save. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It could be worse Joe…I am still mistaken for Jerry Garcia, which realy bothers me because I thought he was STILL DEAD!!!!! Big Dale

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It could be worse Joe…I am still mistaken for Jerry Garcia, which realy bothers me because I thought he was STILL DEAD!!!!! Big Dale

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have only been flyfishing for a few months, most of my trips have been in the Townsend area of the Smokies.  I have fished the Tremont (Middle Prong of Little River)  area several times with limited success.  I have the opportunity this weekend to fish Deep Creek (Bryson City, NC) and I have decided to swallow my pride and ask for advice here so I hopefully won’t get "blanked" and ruin my vacation!  For Tremont, I have used 6X tippets and patterns of caddis, adams, black gnats, beadhead phesant tail nymph. My specific questions:  What time of day should be the most successful in either of these areas (Tremont or Deep Creek)?  What patterns are most effective for Deep Creek?  Any advice on presentation to these skittish mountain trout?  Any particular areas of Deep Creek that anyone has had experience fishing before? Thanks very much, Dan Please reply to group

Dan, This time of the year you want to fish very early or very late in the day….most trout I know take long siestas when the water warms up during the day. The patterns you are using are fine…I might add a black ant and a yellow sally to your arsenal. Good luck…. –Walt

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have very good luck with elk hair caddis. I fish Tremont usually in the afternoon but not always. And don’t forget those wooly buggers! Bryce I have only been flyfishing for a few months, most of my trips have been in the Townsend area of the Smokies.  I have fished the Tremont (Middle Prong of Little River)  area several times with limited success.  I have the opportunity this weekend to fish Deep Creek (Bryson City, NC) and I have decided to swallow my pride and ask for advice here so I hopefully won’t get "blanked" and ruin my vacation!  For Tremont, I have used 6X tippets and patterns of caddis, adams, black gnats, beadhead phesant tail nymph. My specific questions:  What time of day should be the most successful in either of these areas (Tremont or Deep Creek)?  What patterns are most effective for Deep Creek?  Any advice on presentation to these skittish mountain trout?  Any particular areas of Deep Creek that anyone has had experience fishing before?

Hi! Tremont should be good early in the morning or late at night. I stay away from the lower portion of Deep Creek this time of the year, due to all  the tourists and tubers. Go above Indian creek. Also try West prong of Little River while you are over in that area. Go backcountry away from Laurel creek rd. Try a Thunderhead dry, it’s a NC pattern that’s very similar to an Adams Wulff. Hans

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have very good luck with elk hair caddis. I fish Tremont usually in the afternoon but not always. And don’t forget those wooly buggers! Bryce I have only been flyfishing for a few months, most of my trips have been in the Townsend area of the Smokies.  I have fished the Tremont (Middle Prong of Little River)  area several times with limited success.  I have the opportunity this weekend to fish Deep Creek (Bryson City, NC) and I have decided to swallow my pride and ask for advice here so I hopefully won’t get "blanked" and ruin my vacation!  For Tremont, I have used 6X tippets and patterns of caddis, adams, black gnats, beadhead phesant tail nymph. My specific questions:  What time of day should be the most successful in either of these areas (Tremont or Deep Creek)?  What patterns are most effective for Deep Creek?  Any advice on presentation to these skittish mountain trout?  Any particular areas of Deep Creek that anyone has had experience fishing before? Hi! Tremont should be good early in the morning or late at night. I stay away from the lower portion of Deep Creek this time of the year, due to all  the tourists and tubers. Go above Indian creek. Also try West prong of Little River while you are over in that area. Go backcountry away from Laurel creek rd. Try a Thunderhead dry, it’s a NC pattern that’s very similar to an Adams Wulff. Hans

I fished Deep Creek a coupla years ago and ran across a native of the area who was having great luck on a parachute Adams morning and late afternoon.  I might add that he was quite stealthy and could read water very well.

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I have very good luck with elk hair caddis. I fish Tremont usually in the afternoon but not always. And don’t forget those wooly buggers! Bryce – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have only been flyfishing for a few months, most of my trips have been in the Townsend area of the Smokies.  I have fished the Tremont (Middle Prong of Little River)  area several times with limited success.  I have the opportunity this weekend to fish Deep Creek (Bryson City, NC) and I have decided to swallow my pride and ask for advice here so I hopefully won’t get "blanked" and ruin my vacation!  For Tremont, I have used 6X tippets and patterns of caddis, adams, black gnats, beadhead phesant tail nymph. My specific questions:  What time of day should be the most successful in either of these areas (Tremont or Deep Creek)?  What patterns are most effective for Deep Creek?  Any advice on presentation to these skittish mountain trout?  Any particular areas of Deep Creek that anyone has had experience fishing before?

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Thanks to all who replied to my original post.  Your advice will be very helpful.  I plan to spend the next couple of days on Deep Creek, so I will try to give you a report (to the group) next week.   Thanks again, Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have very good luck with elk hair caddis. I fish Tremont usually in the afternoon but not always. And don’t forget those wooly buggers! Bryce I have only been flyfishing for a few months, most of my trips have been in the Townsend area of the Smokies.  I have fished the Tremont (Middle Prong of Little River)  area several times with limited success.  I have the opportunity this weekend to fish Deep Creek (Bryson City, NC) and I have decided to swallow my pride and ask for advice here so I hopefully won’t get "blanked" and ruin my vacation!  For Tremont, I have used 6X tippets and patterns of caddis, adams, black gnats, beadhead phesant tail nymph. My specific questions:  What time of day should be the most successful in either of these areas (Tremont or Deep Creek)?  What patterns are most effective for Deep Creek?  Any advice on presentation to these skittish mountain trout?  Any particular areas of Deep Creek that anyone has had experience fishing before? Hi! Tremont should be good early in the morning or late at night. I stay away from the lower portion of Deep Creek this time of the year, due to all  the tourists and tubers. Go above Indian creek. Also try West prong of Little River while you are over in that area. Go backcountry away from Laurel creek rd. Try a Thunderhead dry, it’s a NC pattern that’s very similar to an Adams Wulff. Hans I fished Deep Creek a coupla years ago and ran across a native of the area who was having great luck on a parachute Adams morning and late afternoon.  I might add that he was quite stealthy and could read water very well.

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I have only been flyfishing for a few months, most of my trips have been in the Townsend area of the Smokies.  I have fished the Tremont (Middle Prong of Little River)  area several times with limited success.  I have the opportunity this weekend to fish Deep Creek (Bryson City, NC) and I have decided to swallow my pride and ask for advice here so I hopefully won’t get "blanked" and ruin my vacation!  For Tremont, I have used 6X tippets and patterns of caddis, adams, black gnats, beadhead phesant tail nymph. My specific questions:  What time of day should be the most successful in either of these areas (Tremont or Deep Creek)?  What patterns are most effective for Deep Creek?  Any advice on presentation to these skittish mountain trout?  Any particular areas of Deep Creek that anyone has had experience fishing before? Thanks very much, Dan Please reply to group

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For those that have written the group and me personally asking about water conditions I send this updated report (by the way, I don’t mind in the least getting the queries). Got three trout today with a completely new method of dry fly fishing. There I was standing  (or at least trying to) in four feet of water on a sand bar that, to my certain knowledge, has been dry, year round, for at least the last six years. The creek is small but at times has produced the occasional 18 inch brown some smaller rainbows and the occasional cut throat or two. This new method consists of casting a dry up stream. letting it hit the water and race back towards you in the current. The three fish I caught had broken their necks trying to get the fly as it went past them at somewhere around forty five mph. Their bodies were then recovered some one and a half miles down stream by an accomplice. Lolo Mt.

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You want: Trout and Salmon Rivers and Lochs of Scotland Bruce Sandison Merlin Unwin Books.

Question:

I have the opportunity to take a "Flyfishing Seminar" in southern Mississippi with Mel Kreiger.  Since ther is little or no freshwater fishing nearby (at least this time of year), I’m assuming the seminar will be concerned mostly with casting.  As a novice who has taken some casting classes i could probably use the help. The problem is the $$$.  They want $175 for each one day session.  The money is donated to a very good cause (the Crosby Arboretum), but it’s still half the cost of a new rod… Anybody out there had any experinece with Mel’s casting classes?  Is it likely to be worth the money? Please let me know ASAP as the price goes up to $225 on the first (yikes, that’s tomorrow…) Many thanks, Bob McAnulty

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have the opportunity to take a "Flyfishing Seminar" in southern Mississippi with Mel Kreiger.  Since ther is little or no freshwater fishing nearby (at least this time of year), I’m assuming the seminar will be concerned mostly with casting.  As a novice who has taken some casting classes i could probably use the help. The problem is the $$$.  They want $175 for each one day session. The money is donated to a very good cause (the Crosby Arboretum), but it’s still half the cost of a new rod… Anybody out there had any experinece with Mel’s casting classes?  Is it likely to be worth the money?

I had the opportunity to take a Mel Krieger seminar for free (through Golden  West Women Flyfishers in S.F.), where Mel’s wife, Fanny, is a member.   Although there were a lot of people, and little personalized attention from Mel, it was still very useful (and I am a pretty good caster already).  If you can spend the money, I think Mel Krieger is a great casting instructor.  If you can’t afford the class, at least buy the  "Essence of Flycasting Video."  I like to just review it every  once in a while to keep my casting sharp.   If you are a novice, with some casting experience, I think Mel will  have you throwing a tight loop and double-hauling by the end of the day. John

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For my money Mel is the best casting instructor anywhere.  I have known him for 20 years and have seen him teach many times.  He even taught me.  I still try to find time to spend with him to break the bad habits I pick up along the way.  He has written several books and has at least two videos.

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I honestly cannot attest to Mel’s "live" presentation, but I will say that I learned a lot from his videotapes on casting. The problem, as I see it, with live seminars and to a certain extent, videos, is that each "master" has his own style of casting. There is no one way to cast, and learning other casting styles after a basic motion is mastered is much easier than trying to learn from a "Master." I do like Mel’s casting style. My recommendation is to buy his video on ADVANCED Fly Casting: this will save you $150 over the cost of the seminar; and you can make a worthwhile contribution to the Crosby Arberitum as an added – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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I do like Mel’s casting style. My recommendation is to buy his video on ADVANCED Fly Casting: this will save you $150 over the cost of the

seminar. I disagree.  Buy the Essence of Flycasting tape, rather than Essence II.   Essence has the basics, plus some advanced material.  Essence II has some things that may not be useful to the mainstream (spey casting, etc.). This advice only applies if you’re going to buy one tape.  Best bet is to buy them both.

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I’m assuming the seminar will be concerned mostly with casting.  As a novice who has taken some casting classes i could probably use the help.

Yes it is and he is superb.                           Dan

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The problem, as I see it, with live seminars and to a certain extent, videos, is that each "master" has his own style of casting. There is no one way to cast, and learning other casting styles after a basic motion is mastered is much easier than trying to learn from a "Master." I do like Mel’s casting style. My recommendation is to buy his video on ADVANCED Fly Casting: this will save you $150 over the cost of the seminar; and you can make a worthwhile contribution to the Crosby Arberitum as an added

Regardless how you do it, if you move the rod correctly you will get a good cast.   However, the "style" that Mel teaches is efficient, accurate and repeatable all day long without causing soreness or injury.  I espouse this style of casting as I have found it the best for the reasons just stated.  His tapes are superb, however I would recommend "Essence Of FlyCasting" as the best for a novice, and Essence 2 for tournament style casting and 2 handed rod casting. NEITHER of the tapes is a substitute for instruction from the man!!  A competent instructor is far superior to any tape out there because his instruction is personalized to your needs. Price is the difference here.                                                           Dan

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Montgomery, Noel D.) writes: Hammond) writes… | | I have had no luck with SSS as an insect repellant.  If | it works for you great.  If you haven’t tried it before, | I’d bring muskol or cutters or whatever your favorite | brand containing 95-100% deet. | | I was curious to see how SSS and Muskol compared because I would rather use a non-deet repellant.  So during one trip I did in the middle of Algonquin Park (it was very hot and there were tons of nice, big mosquitoes) I did a test.  I put SSS on the bare skin of one arm and Muskol on the other. They worked equally well for about a half an hour and then the SSS lost its effectiveness.  The Muskol lasted for hours.  I usually bring both and use the Muskol  on my clothes and hat .  The SSS is too labour intensive having to put it on too often to be effective when the bugs are really bad. – Lori (ps sorry to whoever(I think it was Steve Hammond) I accidently e-mailed this  post to … Hit the wrong button!)

Saw something sometime recently (how’s that for a solid start?) that SSS isn’t really a repellent at all.  It’s oily, so it coats the skin and the mosquitoes can’t get to the skin … or because of it’s scent, the mosquitoes can’t smell the blood. It might work at first, but once perspiration dilutes it and/or washes it away, you would be without protection.

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I have had no luck with SSS as an insect repellant.  If it works for you great.  If you haven’t tried it before, I’d bring muskol or cutters or whatever your favorite brand containing 95-100% deet. I go to the army surplus store and buy a little plastic squeeze bottle of army issue incent repellant.  I believe it’s 90% deet. I’ve been using the same bottle for three seasons.  It cost me about $2.  It works. —

I used that stuff when I was in the USAF…dissolved the vinyl steering wheel in my jeep too.  Left neato fingerprints on anything plastic. Anyway, it did work.  I also read an article once that said the most affective concentration of DEET was about 30%.  This was an Army study, so maybe the latest Army-issue stuff only has about 30% DEET in it.  I buy any brand with about that much in it and they seem to work fine.  I like the stinky ones…reminds me of when I was a kid and going camping, kinda like when you smell sun tan lotion and you remember when you were a kid going to the beach.. Brian — Brian Dixon, Machine Vision Engineer, Hewlett Packard (Corvallis, Oregon)

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After 14 mosquito-free years in Southern California, I get to move to Massachusetts for grad school…  Any mosquitoes there?

Well, I don’t believe the mosquitos are that bad, but up north you have an evil creature called the black fly.  Never encountered one, but from what I hear they’re worse than any mosquito bite. Mosquitos are bad, but I’ll walk into a cloud of mosquitos any day over a cloud of no-see-ums!         Mark — <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Mark Crafts                                                   Melbourne FL

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After 14 mosquito-free years in Southern California, I get to move to Massachusetts for grad school…  Any mosquitoes there? Well, I don’t believe the mosquitos are that bad, but up north you have an evil creature called the black fly.  Never encountered one, but from what I hear they’re worse than any mosquito bite. Mosquitos are bad, but I’ll walk into a cloud of mosquitos any day over a cloud of no-see-ums!

A few years back, I went Pike fishing in the Adirondacks.  When I went back to the house, there were about 20 one inch trails of dry blood on my face. I was told that "black flies" were the culprits.  Are these the same critters that we’re talking about here?        Mark — <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Mark Crafts                                                   Melbourne FL

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Saw something sometime recently (how’s that for a solid start?) that SSS isn’t really a repellent at all.  It’s oily, so it coats the skin and the mosquitoes can’t get to the skin … or because of it’s scent, the mosquitoes can’t smell the blood. Just so you win future trivial pursuit games, I think the current consensus is that mosquitos home in on the CO .                                             2

I think they follow CO2 trails, but home in on heat for the kill. How else can you explain the mosquito bite on my ankle? After 14 mosquito-free years in Southern California, I get to move to Massachusetts for grad school…  Any mosquitoes there?

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I have had no luck with SSS as an insect repellant.  If it works for you great.  If you haven’t tried it before, I’d bring muskol or cutters or whatever your favorite brand containing 95-100% deet.

I go to the army surplus store and buy a little plastic squeeze bottle of army issue incent repellant.  I believe it’s 90% deet. I’ve been using the same bottle for three seasons.  It cost me about $2.  It works. — John Fereira Viacom Cable Pleasanton, CA

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Saw something sometime recently (how’s that for a solid start?) that SSS isn’t really a repellent at all.  It’s oily, so it coats the skin and the mosquitoes can’t get to the skin … or because of it’s scent, the mosquitoes can’t smell the blood.

Just so you win future trivial pursuit games, I think the current consensus is that mosquitos home in on the CO .                                              2         Mark — <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Mark Crafts                                                   Melbourne FL

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| Saw something sometime recently (how’s that for a solid start?) that SSS | isn’t really a repellent at all.  It’s oily, so it coats the skin and the | mosquitoes can’t get to the skin … or because of it’s scent, the mosquitoes | can’t smell the blood. | | It might work at first, but once perspiration dilutes it and/or washes it away, | you would be without protection. | Actually, I put very little on so that is absorbs into the skin and your skin isn’t oily at all.  I thought I heard that it had citronella  (the stuff they make bug candles with) in it but I’m not sure.

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I have had no luck with SSS as an insect repellant.  If it works for you great.  If you haven’t tried it before, I’d bring muskol or cutters or whatever your favorite brand containing 95-100% deet.   Steve —  Scientific Computing Division            /* /  _][     National Center for Atmospheric Research, Boulder, CO     ____

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I have had no luck with SSS as an insect repellant.  If it works for you great.  If you haven't tried it before, I'd bring muskol or cutters or whatever your favorite brand containing 95-100% deet.

Yes, my ex-neighbor the entomologist (bug-man) said that SSS does nothing for mosquitos.  DEET is the way to go.  He did say that it works for very small biting insects like black flies because it drowns them.  Steve -- Scientific Computing Division            /* /  _][     National Center for Atmospheric Research, Boulder, CO     ____

Noel Montgomery

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| | I have had no luck with SSS as an insect repellant.  If | it works for you great.  If you haven’t tried it before, | I’d bring muskol or cutters or whatever your favorite | brand containing 95-100% deet. | | I was curious to see how SSS and Muskol compared because I would rather use a non-deet repellant.  So during one trip I did in the middle of Algonquin Park (it was very hot and there were tons of nice, big mosquitoes) I did a test.  I put SSS on the bare skin of one arm and Muskol on the other. They worked equally well for about a half an hour and then the SSS lost its effectiveness.  The Muskol lasted for hours.  I usually bring both and use the Muskol  on my clothes and hat .  The SSS is too labour intensive having to put it on too often to be effective when the bugs are really bad. – Lori (ps sorry to whoever(I think it was Steve Hammond) I accidently e-mailed this   post to … Hit the wrong button!)

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