Question:

If the Guardians win in court, or if the government settles, the number of

cows a rancher is allowed to graze with his permit is cut. That hands the Guardians a double victory: Not only does the land get a breather, but the rancher has to pay much more to feed his displaced cows on private land. Interesting concept that "free market"  Sounds like the ranchers prefer a Socialist type system.

Response:

I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of depopulation in rural communities back east…

Most of the rural counties in Oregon are loosing population, and it was several years ago when I heard a statistic that 90% of the rural landowners were age 60 or greater. I don’t know how true the 90% stat is, but it does appear rural america is dwindling for *many* reasons. Though I consider myself an environmentalists, and often see the need for action *now*, I also recognize that there are more powerful long-term changes occuring in the US such as rural depopulation, and often think that there is an opportunity for environmentalists and landowners to accept this trend (rather than force it), and see ways to make it positive. Case in point – I could spend lots of time going after grazing issues, or I could spend lots of time understanding which landowners are wanting to sell off (because their kids aren’t following in their footsteps) and seeing how to move that land into less intensive uses. Thomas Gilg

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of depopulation in rural communities back east… Most of the rural counties in Oregon are loosing population, and it was several years ago when I heard a statistic that 90% of the rural landowners were age 60 or greater. I don’t know how true the 90% stat is, but it does appear rural america is dwindling for *many* reasons. Though I consider myself an environmentalists, and often see the need for action *now*, I also recognize that there are more powerful long-term changes occuring in the US such as rural depopulation, and often think that there is an opportunity for environmentalists and landowners to accept this trend (rather than force it), and see ways to make it positive. Case in point – I could spend lots of time going after grazing issues, or I could spend lots of time understanding which landowners are wanting to sell off (because their kids aren’t following in their footsteps) and seeing how to move that land into less intensive uses. Thomas Gilg

Also what has to be remembered is that the ranchers who won’t be able to afford higher grazing fees will be the smaller family operations. The bigger ones will be able to absorb any increased costs. By most accounts grazing is a problem ( a huge problem in some instances) along the riparian corridors out west but it is also problematic if the solution only brings about the demise of family ranches to the benefit of the huge multi-national conglomerate run outfits. No one said this was going to be easy. George C.

Response:

 What our outdoor wildlife inventories need is the total removal of all livestock that steal their food and habitat. Why? Because wildlife is more valuable to a state’s economy as it is to the Federal Economy. Allowing grazing on Federal (PUBLIC) lands to individual ranchers is stupid economics. George G.

Response:

|

| I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of | depopulation in rural communities back east… | | Most of the rural counties in Oregon are loosing population, and it was | several years ago when I heard a statistic that 90% of the rural landowners | were age 60 or greater. I don’t know how true the 90% stat is, but it does | appear rural america is dwindling for *many* reasons. Though I consider | myself an environmentalists, and often see the need for action *now*, I | also recognize that there are more powerful long-term changes occuring | in the US such as rural depopulation, and often think that there is an | opportunity for environmentalists and landowners to accept this trend | (rather than force it), and see ways to make it positive. Case in point – | I could spend lots of time going after grazing issues, or I could spend | lots of time understanding which landowners are wanting to sell off | (because their kids aren’t following in their footsteps) and seeing how to | move that land into less intensive uses. | | Thomas Gilg | | | | | Also what has to be remembered is that the ranchers who won’t be able to afford | higher grazing fees will be the smaller family operations. The bigger ones will | be able to absorb any increased costs. By most accounts grazing is a problem ( a | huge problem in some instances) along the riparian corridors out west but it is | also problematic if the solution only brings about the demise of family ranches | to the benefit of the huge multi-national conglomerate run outfits. | | No one said this was going to be easy. | George C. | That may be true, too. The reason my grandfather specialized, was to devote more acres to one crop, to be able to absorb the fixed overheads. But even he had just 500 acres. My father struggled to make money. I refused to take over – it was clear at an early age that it simply COULD NOT be profitable, because of/despite the (socialist) policies of the Common Agricultural Policy, dreamed up by the EU. These same policies were actually intended to protect the family farm. In reality they destroyed it. Q. How far do we go, to protect the family farm? The French have split their farms between 2 (or more) sons for generations. Now they have 100-acre farms that are mere subsistence farming. On an environmental tack – I would prefer to see people grazing farm land that is already farm land & lacking farmers, rather than grazing the more fragile environments often (but not always) found on federal lands. Take the money farm managers pay and use it to encourage farmers to take up the land that has been converted from it’s natural state, into My family were TENANT farmers. After my father & his brother retired, the farm was bought from the landlord & is now actually profitable. Q. HOW – by finding a niche. The current farmers don’t try to compete with the large managed farms. They run an organic farm – even the wool is organic. They don’t need help competing, because they specialisze. I suspect the family-ranchers here in the SW USA will have to also find a niche.

Response:

Even if they are, that just means more money needs to be spent on enforcing the current restrictions, not coming up with more.

And sadly the folks breaking the law are the same ones against any additional government enforcement of the law. Thomas Gilg

Response:

| I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze | that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? | | In this country, you are entitled to your own opinion…. even when it’s an | incorrect one. Maybe if you’d actually get out there and meet a real | cattleman, you’d change your tune. | | George– | This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now.  I cannot believe your comments | regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer.  I grew up in Eastern | Montana on a small ranch.  My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his | calves sold every fall.  This fall the price given to cattlemen for their | calves is still 70-75 cents per pound.  Not much of a raise over the past 20 | years.  Your accusations against the ranchers holds no water.  You are | basically talking out of your rear-end.  If you would do some research and | cared about your country, you would see that the family ranches are unable | to support their families. I grew up on a farm in England – we raised beef without ANY cheap grazing. We found a way – we rented permanent pasture, that was atop historic monuments (and couldn’t be ploughed), we housed steers in the old milking parlour during the Winter (after a milking herd ceased to be profitable), but we NEVER had grazing land subsidised by the taxpayer. We made a living growing beef. Any help we can give the ranchers in the use of | public lands is money put back into our economy and assistance to families | who are trying to make a living providing food for your table.  And just in | case you are a vegetarian, don’t forget those ranchers who graze cattle on | public land can then use the land they own to grow grain and barley for your | bread.  Don’t be such a twit. | | Boy, George… did you ever step in it!! When Cindy reads over my shoulder | and kicks me off the keyboard…. well, you get the drift. | — | Tight Lines! | Brian D. Nelson | Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana | www.diamondnoutfitters.com | |

Response:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

Brian D. Nelson responded: I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits … I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits … You,  sir, are clueless.

Across the west you’ll find varying compliance with grazing permits. Ditto logging laws and so on. I regularily volunteer to help with multi-agency state/federal fish surveys in eastern Oregon, and it is not uncommon to find cattle grazing well outside their permitted range. In one case we were surveying for bull trout in a remote backcountry area where grazing permits had been eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Some of the agency folks were suppose to followup on that discovery. Thomas Gilg

Response:

eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

I’m sure there are instances of illegal activity such as you described. However, from my experience, I don’t believe that these instances are "commonplace". — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

FISHING RELATED POST?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You never met a cattleman, period. —

Response:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.  As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising.  These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book.

Obviously, you’ve never spent any time in eastern Montana where a lot of grazing is done on BLM. I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits in our area come around to check grass conditions, number of cattle, water hole conditions, whether or not the ranchers are pulling there cows off public ground at the designated time, etc., etc., etc. I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits (and they should) for not following the stipulated conditions on their permit. This same scenario (the proper management of grazing permits) happens all across the American West on both National Forest System Lands and Bureau of Land Management lands. You,  sir, are clueless. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

|  What our outdoor wildlife inventories need is the total removal of all | livestock that steal their food and habitat. | | Why? | | Because wildlife is more valuable to a state’s economy as it is to the | Federal Economy. | | Allowing grazing on Federal (PUBLIC) lands to individual ranchers is stupid | economics. | | George G. | | | | | | | When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush | too I suppose. | — That’s why I advocate using funds collected from grazing federal lands be used to induce ranchers to use land that has already been converted to farming.  I’d rather convert from arable to grazing land, than forest/prairie to grazing land ! I don’t accept that it’s a choice between cattle & tourists – it’s more of a choice between cattle & migrants. But if we convince ranchers to move East onto arable land, we come closer to both protecting our fragile environments AND providing beef at competitive prices (compared to Argentinean beef). P.S. I remember paying $9 a pound for beef in the UK – beef was one of the most expensive forms of meat. But now I pay $9 a pound for Stilton cheese instead (I paid $3-4 a pound for Stilton in the UK).

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of depopulation in rural communities back east… Most of the rural counties in Oregon are loosing population, and it was several years ago when I heard a statistic that 90% of the rural landowners were age 60 or greater. I don’t know how true the 90% stat is, but it does appear rural america is dwindling for *many* reasons. Though I consider myself an environmentalists, and often see the need for action *now*, I also recognize that there are more powerful long-term changes occuring in the US such as rural depopulation, and often think that there is an opportunity for environmentalists and landowners to accept this trend (rather than force it), and see ways to make it positive. Case in point – I could spend lots of time going after grazing issues, or I could spend lots of time understanding which landowners are wanting to sell off (because their kids aren’t following in their footsteps) and seeing how to move that land into less intensive uses.

That approach is far too thoughtful and intelligent for the hard core greenies to comprehend, let alone follow.

Response:

  When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose.

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G.

Response:

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past?

Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

What’s to do with FISHING anyways?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. What, are you suggesting that both ends are getting screwed by the large corporations in the middle? How un-American! Jon.

Response:

<When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. What if some of us don’t bother to eat that brown shit?

Response:

If it’s brown – you’re cooking it wrong !

| <When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush | too I suppose. | | What if some of us don’t bother to eat that brown shit?

Response:

It’s "If it’s brown it’s down."  Food from grist for the mill. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -If it’s brown – you’re cooking it wrong ! | <When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush | too I suppose. | | What if some of us don’t bother to eat that brown shit?

Response:

  When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother.

christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

Response:

I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother?

In this country, you are entitled to your own opinion…. even when it’s an incorrect one. Maybe if you’d actually get out there and meet a real cattleman, you’d change your tune. George– This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now.  I cannot believe your comments regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer.  I grew up in Eastern Montana on a small ranch.  My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his calves sold every fall.  This fall the price given to cattlemen for their calves is still 70-75 cents per pound.  Not much of a raise over the past 20 years.  Your accusations against the ranchers holds no water.  You are basically talking out of your rear-end.  If you would do some research and cared about your country, you would see that the family ranches are unable to support their families.  Any help we can give the ranchers in the use of public lands is money put back into our economy and assistance to families who are trying to make a living providing food for your table.  And just in case you are a vegetarian, don’t forget those ranchers who graze cattle on public land can then use the land they own to grow grain and barley for your bread.  Don’t be such a twit. Boy, George… did you ever step in it!! When Cindy reads over my shoulder and kicks me off the keyboard…. well, you get the drift. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.  As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising.  These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book. Jon

Response:

I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of depopulation in rural communities back east – sorry, can’t remember the exact state, possibly one of the Dakotas. The program talked about how more people are getting college education and moving away to city jobs, leaving rural life. As a result some farmers are converting their land back to prairie. What little I know of the Eastern states, I’d guess this is some pretty decent farm land being lost.  I also recently read about farm land in Wisconsin being converted back to forest. I know that here in the Southwest, we are enduring one of the worst droughts ever. Phoenix has had just 2.24 inches of rain this year, and may get no more rain until February or March. People are leaving the East and moving out West in huge numbers, and so people & agriculture are competing for many natural resources. So, it doesn’t sound so bad to me, when  "Hard-line environmentalists" are simply helping to maximize the reward to the taxpayers, from the business use of  Federal land. In a free market economy the cost for federal grazing rights should b e"all the market will bear". I know that there is an argument that this policy will reduce domestic beef production & increase imports. Well……perhaps we should consider the most efficient way this country feeds its’self. As a taxpayer and an eater, I want the cheapest (safe) beef I can get. This allows me to spend more of my income on other (US-made) products. It’s a tough life being a farmer. My grandfather was a successful farmer in England. He changed & correctly predicted the trends and made a profit – he didn’t need subsidies. He changed a farm that was widely diversified (sugarbeet, chickens, barley & milk, were just some of the products) to a farm that was specialized – he was one of the first in the area to see the demand for oil seed rape. As a farmer it doesn’t seem fair that a successful way of life is being changed. But all forms of business change over time – including farming.

|         www.sfgate.com        Return to regular view | In the old West, a tense showdown over federal lands | JIM CARLTON, The Wall Street Journal | Monday, November 11, 2002 |

Question:

Back legs extended, front claws out – Back Scratcher. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply. Another cat person – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On its back legs up … magazine rack that doesn’t scuff the covers. Steve (Actually a cat person … especially Abyssinians)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, evidently Mr. Reid did, though it bears mentioning that Mr. Reid implies (at least) that he has no memory or knowledge of having said anything that would indicate that he did.  On the other hand, Mr. Reid would, we hope, certainly deny that he made any such denial, especially in light of the documentary record plainly demonstrating the utter absence of any such denial.  Meanwhile, Mr. Reid, having recently returned to the fold, is up to his old tricks vis a vis objectors objecting to objections, while simultaneously and vehemently objecting to the notion that he ever left in the first place.  The careful reader will, of course, not be fooled by any of the foregoing as it clear, plain, and uncategorically inarguable that that couldn’t possibly have happened given the time constraints and the relative implausibility of Mr. Reid’s simultaneous cohabitation in more than roughly three planes at any given moment.  Hope this clears things up. Hum? Wolfgang

Cool, I know drugs kicked in ’cause I totally grokked that.  BTW, am I in New Zealand or Maryland today? — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Response:

[gross humour snipped] Which begs the question, was it a case of mistaken identity or … Steve

Response:

[gross humour snipped] Which begs the question, was it a case of mistaken identity or … Steve

Being too drunk, high, stoned etc. to know what you were doing . . . Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well, evidently Mr. Reid did, though it bears mentioning that Mr. Reid implies (at least) that he has no memory or knowledge of having said anything that would indicate that he did.  On the other hand, Mr. Reid would, we hope, certainly deny that he made any such denial, especially in light of the documentary record plainly demonstrating the utter absence of any such denial.  Meanwhile, Mr. Reid, having recently returned to the fold, is up to his old tricks vis a vis objectors objecting to objections, while simultaneously and vehemently objecting to the notion that he ever left in the first place.  The careful reader will, of course, not be fooled by any of the foregoing as it clear, plain, and uncategorically inarguable that that couldn’t possibly have happened given the time constraints and the relative implausibility of Mr. Reid’s simultaneous cohabitation in more than roughly three planes at any given moment.  Hope this clears things up.  Hum? Wolfgang who, becoming hopelessly confused anent who is likely to do how much damage to whom under which circumstances and when, is giving serious consideration to kicking his own ass this weekend and being done with it!    :(

You planning on any ice skating judging in the next little while? Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Hey Op, I’m in for c-note.  Does this mean YOU are coming to the Penn’s clave? Gonna make it to the presentation? john

Whether I make it to the Penn’s ‘Clave is a matter to be determined.  Still waitin’ to hear from Mr. Fortenberry.  ’Course he may never have seen my post on the subject, as he has me blocked and all, and in that case if I don’t hear back from him within two weeks of the ‘clave I will attend, come hell of high water. I will attend the presentation, as long as it doesn’t involve you and an out door shower! Op

Response:

A LIAR AND THOSE WHO MAKE THREATS CANNOT BE TRUSTED: You are known for your lies and that you cannot be trusted.  Even this message of yours must be reported to the authorities Mike Connor and all of this is of your doing. It is time Klaus does something positive about you because his trust in you has been violated as you have indeed violated Roff and many of its’ members. You must be stopped before you do something very, very stupid. It is time to post every negative thought, every negative deed, every name calling post you send to Roff.  Until you stop your insane conduct, every abuse you bestow upon the American Fly Fishing Scene will be reported until you stop. Do you understand this Mike Connor? George Gehrke "it’s time to police your pathetic conduct Connor"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I pledge $100.00 to Mike’s trip across the water, but only if he will spend his time at a ‘clave over here.  Any ‘clave will do, but wouldn’t it be nice if he made an appearance at the Penn’s ‘Clave! Mike, please don’t waste your time and energy on confronting an obviously deranged individual.  I honestly don’t think George can help himself.  I have no doubt that the rest of the folks pledging funds would rather see you in the flesh fishin’, than see you on the back pages of some local paper’s arrest report.  Do you realize how much satisfaction George would get from you being hauled off to an *American* jail, before you ever got to lay a finger on him? Anyway, hope to meet ya some day, at a ‘clave! Op  –eternal optimist– Well Op, that is very kind of you, and I appreciate the sentiment, but I don

Question:

P.S.  after reading some of the postings, I hope that only those that can honestly help me reply to this posting. Well, they say hope springs eternal.  Just curious; when you go to the reference library do you ask them to keep all the red books covered? Wolfgang who can help….honestly….but declines, thank you.

Wolfie, you didn’t think she was REALLY going to skate by with that, did you?  Get Ready!!! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Joe, I have a GREAT idea!!  Come on down and pick up Lenny Young on the way.  We’ll head over to the Vally and fish our way up north toward Maryland. At the end of the day we’ll lay over in Berkley Springs WVa. Just south of town on 522 (north bound side of the road) is Bambi’s Massage.  The three of us will pile up in there, drink some Scotch, smoke some cigars, and have ol’e Bambi give us a nice relaxing rub- down.  In the meantime, we’ll give Monica a $10 gift certificate to Potomac Mills Outlet Mall, it’s the least we can do since she is footing the bill for our "fishing" trip!  We’ll be back Sunday evening, fished out and totally relaxed! Whadda’ya say guys!!

Sounds pretty good, but you may have tipped our hand by mentioning Bambi’s. No doubt you just happened to notice that place on the way to church. Why Monica, we’d NEVER take Lenny there, honest.   (Do you think she bought that?) Joe F.

Response:

Dang Wayne, I might try that place myself.   (Now where can I leave the kids?   Say, how may bedrooms ya got?  <g) Joe F.

Joe, we’ll drop your kids at my place.  We’ll stock the fridge with pizza and Coke.  We have cable and a VCR.  The gutters need cleaning, the garden needs weeding, and the grass needs mowing.  Meadow Lane Lodge would be a great weekend getaway.  You bring the Special Edition Wild Turkey and I’ll bring the Macallan. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Joe, I have a GREAT idea!!  Come on down and pick up Lenny Young on the way.  We’ll head over to the Vally and fish our way up north toward Maryland. At the end of the day we’ll lay over in Berkley Springs WVa. Just south of town on 522 (north bound side of the road) is Bambi’s Massage.  The three of us will pile up in there, drink some Scotch, smoke some cigars, and have ol’e Bambi give us a nice relaxing rub- down.  In the meantime, we’ll give Monica a $10 gift certificate to Potomac Mills Outlet Mall, it’s the least we can do since she is footing the bill for our "fishing" trip!  We’ll be back Sunday evening, fished out and totally relaxed! Whadda’ya say guys!! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Again, what is a getaway to you (or anyone besides the man in question) is not relevant.

Actually, I thought that was precisely the question:  "I would like to give him a gift of a fly fishing weekend getaway.   Anyone have any suggestions?" I hadn’t meant to whiz in anyone’s Wheaties; just trying to be helpful. Sorry if I offended. I don’t mean this snidely, but I’d be damned if someone is going to tell me how or where to teach my kids, and I extend the same courtesy to others. I do agree, however, that for most, it could be an issue.

I understand your point; and perhaps a weekend teaching his kids to flyfish would be the ideal fly fishing weekend getaway for him.   It would be a fine weekend activity for me as well, just not a "getaway". PS: Try setting your length to 80 characters.  I don’t how to do it in OE 5.0, but I’m sure you can.

It’s set to wrap outgoing messages at 76 characters.   Why? Joe F.

Response:

In article Now, Now, gentlemen.(ladies?)….  I justed wanted some

suggestions. Hey! Watch your language!  There are no gentlemen here!  It’s virtually impossible to ask for suggestions here without an argument starting.  Don’t take it personally – it’s entertainment for some of us.  Looks like you have several suggestions to consider in any case * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Again, what is a getaway to you (or anyone besides the man in question) is not relevant. Actually, I thought that was precisely the question:  "I would like to give him a gift of a fly fishing weekend getaway.   Anyone have any suggestions?" I hadn’t meant to whiz in anyone’s Wheaties; just trying to be helpful. Sorry if I offended.

No offense taken, and I hope the same, but I guess it hit me strangely for some reason.  I still believe if a kid is old enough to show genuine interest, they are old enough to start to learn, but JMO. I don’t mean this snidely, but I’d be damned if someone is going to tell me how or where to teach my kids, and I extend the same courtesy to others. I do agree, however, that for most, it could be an issue. I understand your point; and perhaps a weekend teaching his kids to flyfish would be the ideal fly fishing weekend getaway for him.   It would be a fine weekend activity for me as well, just not a "getaway". PS: Try setting your length to 80 characters.  I don’t how to do it in OE 5.0, but I’m sure you can. It’s set to wrap outgoing messages at 76 characters.   Why?

Well, it originally had to do with early terminals (and tins can and string…hey, you old farts, chime on in…<G), but now most people use things that can easily handle at least 80 characters, and I’ve found it seems to be the optimum setting as I never get that annoying "wrap" of a word or two.  I’ve seen varying recommendations, so YMMV. Joe F.

TC, R

Response:

Now, Now, gentlemen.(ladies?)….  I justed wanted some suggestions. Please don’t misunderstand me, I Want him to getaway!!!  I really don’t want to go.  I would rather send him and a friend.  He would rather take a family trip.  I’m looking for something that would allow the kids and I to do something entertaining while he does his thing and that’s if he prefers to have us along.  I’m sorry, but I hate fishing. But I like to bike ride, walk, swim, and hike. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband loves to fish and recently mentioned about a friend who received a gift to go fly fishing for the weekend.  As father day is coming (and he is such a good father), I would like to give him a gift of a fly fishing weekend getaway. Anyone have any suggestions?  We live in the Washington DC area and don’t want to travel to far (maybe to PA).  He may want the whole family to go, so it must be a kid friendly place.  (two boys 3 and 5). Also, I don’t know the first thing about fly fishing (or fishing period) and have no idea what equipment he would need. P.S.  after reading some of the postings, I hope that only those that can honestly help me reply to this posting. Peace Monica

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P.S.  after reading some of the postings, I hope that only those that can honestly help me reply to this posting.

Well, they say hope springs eternal.  Just curious; when you go to the reference library do you ask them to keep all the red books covered? Wolfgang who can help….honestly….but declines, thank you.

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(snip)

When I "get away" I enjoy taking my family.  I don’t get away from them.  I get away from my job, the city, and all of the stuff I have to do every day.  When I get away I love to take my family because I love my family. Jeff, is it hard to think that some men want to be with their family? — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now, Now, gentlemen.(ladies?)….  I justed wanted some suggestions. Please don’t misunderstand me, I Want him to getaway!!!  I really don’t want to go.  I would rather send him and a friend.  He would rather take a family trip.  I’m looking for something that would allow the kids and I to do something entertaining while he does his thing and that’s if he prefers to have us along.  I’m sorry, but I hate fishing. But I like to bike ride, walk, swim, and hike. message My husband loves to fish and recently mentioned about a friend who received a gift to go fly fishing for the weekend.  As father day is coming (and he is such a good father), I would like to give him a gift of a fly fishing weekend getaway. Anyone have any suggestions?  We live in the Washington DC area and don’t want to travel to far (maybe to PA).  He may want the whole family to go, so it must be a kid friendly place.  (two boys 3 and 5). Also, I don’t know the first thing about fly fishing (or fishing period) and have no idea what equipment he would need. P.S.  after reading some of the postings, I hope that only those that can honestly help me reply to this posting. Peace Monica

Sounds like you have a good man.  It also sounds as though you are a loving wife.  It’s nice to see a family like this.  :-) — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Response:

Now, Now, gentlemen.(ladies?)….  I justed wanted some suggestions. Please don’t misunderstand me, I Want him to getaway!!!  I really don’t want to go.  I would rather send him and a friend.  He would rather take a family trip.  I’m looking for something that would allow the kids and I to do something entertaining while he does his thing and that’s if he prefers to have us along.  I’m sorry, but I hate fishing. But I like to bike ride, walk, swim, and hike.

Why be sorry?  That’s why there is chocolate and vanilla.  It sounded like Wayne Hart provided an excellent suggestion, and I’m sure your situation is not unique, so I’m sure you’ll find a happy blend if you decide (or forced…<G) to go.  For what it’s worth, fly fishing is generally done in some rather nice locations, and maybe you can tag along.  Also, for what it’s worth, if this is his first time with a fly rod, it is likely that neither of you will have a lot of fish to deal with…<G.  Further, my SO hated fishing until she tried it, so if you’ve never tried it, you never know…of course, I’ve never tried a fertilizer malt, so I don’t know if I’d like ‘em.  However, I do know I’m not going to find out. As to the thread, I doubt asking for the time here would get a simple answer, what with time zones, philosophy, analog v. digital, automatic, self-winding, and quartz, etc.  In other words, don’t sweat it, and in fact, it is what makes ROFF, well, ROFF. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband loves to fish and recently mentioned about a friend who received a gift to go fly fishing for the weekend.  As father day is coming (and he is such a good father), I would like to give him a gift of a fly fishing weekend getaway. Anyone have any suggestions?  We live in the Washington DC area and don’t want to travel to far (maybe to PA).  He may want the whole family to go, so it must be a kid friendly place.  (two boys 3 and 5). Also, I don’t know the first thing about fly fishing (or fishing period) and have no idea what equipment he would need. P.S.  after reading some of the postings, I hope that only those that can honestly help me reply to this posting. Peace Monica

Response:

My husband loves to fish and recently mentioned about a friend who received a gift to go fly fishing for the weekend.  As father day is coming (and he is such a good father), I would like to give him a gift of a fly fishing weekend getaway. Anyone have any suggestions?  We live in the Washington DC area and don’t want to travel to far (maybe to PA).  He may want the whole family to go, so it must be a kid friendly place.  (two boys 3 and 5). Also, I don’t know the first thing about fly fishing (or fishing period) and have no idea what equipment he would need.

I’ve given this some deep and honest thought, and I think you need to reconsider.   If it is to be a true "getaway", then he should be able to get away.   I’m sure you love him and he loves you; but no offense, "getaway" means away from you and the kids.   Otherwise, he’s not getting away, he’s just taking it with him somewhere else. Firstly, the 3 and 5 year old can’t fly fish and shouldn’t be anywhere near where sharp hooks are flying through the air.   Secondly, if your husband will be learning this for the first time, his stress level will be greatly reduced if he isn’t worrying about where else he should be or what else he should be doing or where are the kids.   Just cut him loose for the weekend and don’t expect to see him until Sunday night.   He’ll love it.   Trust me. Alternatively (and this is a good idea too), stash the kids, go with him, and learn fly fishing yourself.   You may love it and you may be a natural; there’s nothing inherently macho about it.   It’s graceful, it’s beautiful, it’s relaxing.   Giving your husband a good fishing "buddy" would be a great gift. Sorry, but I don’t see the kids fitting into this at their age.   If he really wants to fly fish, great; but if it’s just a "load the Evian into the Lexus and head over to the Orvis store because it’s kind of cool and Robert Redford made a movie about it" kind of thing; I’d say just go to Great Adventure.   It’ll cost less and everybody will have more fun. One last suggestion (I’m on a roll.)   Does it have to be fly fishing? You’re quite close to the Chesapeake, and it’s possible (depending on your budget) to charter a boat for a day of fishing on the Bay (out of Annapolis or Kent Island).   Everybody could go, you’ll probably have fun and catch a lot of fish, and you won’t need to buy anything new. P.S.  after reading some of the postings, I hope that only those that can honestly help me reply to this posting.

That would certainly be a first. Good luck, Joe F.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Firstly, the 3 and 5 year old can’t fly fish and shouldn’t be anywhere near where sharp hooks are flying through the air. Um, no.  As I’m sure you’ll soon discover, a 5 Y.O. can fish, although he might not have an interest.  A 3 YO is admittedly a little young, but if so disposed, he can watch and enjoy.  Of course, this depends on the boys, but as a blanket statement, you are flat wrong.  As to flying hooks, jeez, they are not machettes, and, likely, ya gonna get hooked sooner or later, anyway. It may be possible to teach a 5-yr.-old boy to fly fish; but if you try, it will be far from a "fly fishing getaway" for you, which I presumed was the point of the gift. Joe F.

Again, what is a getaway to you (or anyone besides the man in question) is not relevant.  I don’t mean this snidely, but I’d be damned if someone is going to tell me how or where to teach my kids, and I extend the same courtesy to others. I do agree, however, that for most, it could be an issue. As to age, I would offer it could be easier to teach an interested 5 yo (boy or girl) as they don’t have learned habits, theories, and likely, haven’t read every word Lefty Kreh has written.  They just want to learn to do it. TC, R PS: Try setting your length to 80 characters.  I don’t how to do it in OE 5.0, but I’m sure you can.  HTH?   R

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Monica, try Meadow Lane Lodge in Warm Springs VA.  Nice country Inn with 2 miles of private Jackson River trout water.  Beautiful place, kid friendly, stuff to do at the Inn and surroundings.  Makes a romantic getaway if you have a baby-sitter.  Check out the URL http://www.meadowlanelodge.com/

Dang Wayne, I might try that place myself.   (Now where can I leave the kids?   Say, how may bedrooms ya got?  <g) Joe F.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband loves to fish and recently mentioned about a friend who received a gift to go fly fishing for the weekend.  As father day is coming (and he is such a good father), I would like to give him a gift of a fly fishing weekend getaway. Anyone have any suggestions?  We live in the Washington DC area and don’t want to travel to far (maybe to PA).  He may want the whole family to go, so it must be a kid friendly place.  (two boys 3 and 5). Also, I don’t know the first thing about fly fishing (or fishing period) and have no idea what equipment he would need. I’ve given this some deep and honest thought, and I think you need to reconsider.   If it is to be a true "getaway", then he should be able to get away.   I’m sure you love him and he loves you; but no offense, "getaway" means away from you and the kids.   Otherwise, he’s not getting away, he’s just taking it with him somewhere else. Firstly, the 3 and 5 year old can’t fly fish and shouldn’t be anywhere near where sharp hooks are flying through the air.  

Um, no.  As I’m sure you’ll soon discover, a 5 Y.O. can fish, although he might not have an interest.  A 3 YO is admittedly a little young, but if so disposed, he can watch and enjoy.  Of course, this depends on the boys, but as a blanket statement, you are flat wrong.  As to flying hooks, jeez, they are not machettes, and, likely, ya gonna get hooked sooner or later, anyway. Secondly, if your husband will be learning this for the first time, his stress level will be greatly reduced if he isn’t worrying about where else he should be or what else he should be doing or where are the kids.   Just cut him loose for the weekend and don’t expect to see him until Sunday night.   He’ll love it.   Trust me.

Well, now here you _may_ have something here, but you sure are making a lot of decisions for someone else.  Do you know these people?  If so, why are you posting instead of just calling and chatting about it.  As I don’t know him, I won’t presume he doesn’t enjoy learning _with_ his family.  I, for one, actually like doing such things with kids.  They aren’t jaded, and they don’t presume a whole lot…plus, they leave my Scotch the hell alone, never need to bum tobacco products, and are useful for errands. Alternatively (and this is a good idea too), stash the kids, go with him, and learn fly fishing yourself.   You may love it and you may be a natural; there’s nothing inherently macho about it.   It’s graceful, it’s beautiful, it’s relaxing.   Giving your husband a good fishing "buddy" would be a great gift. Sorry, but I don’t see the kids fitting into this at their age.   If he really wants to fly fish, great; but if it’s just a "load the Evian into the Lexus and head over to the Orvis store because it’s kind of cool and Robert Redford made a movie about it" kind of thing; I’d say just go to Great Adventure.   It’ll cost less and everybody will have more fun.

I’ll just let this stand (or rather, wobble) on its own… One last suggestion (I’m on a roll.)   Does it have to be fly fishing? You’re quite close to the Chesapeake, and it’s possible (depending on your budget) to charter a boat for a day of fishing on the Bay (out of Annapolis or Kent Island).   Everybody could go, you’ll probably have fun and catch a lot of fish, and you won’t need to buy anything new.

Hey, so am I…when you’re finsihed wizzing in this lady’s Wheaties, why not just plan the trip, send them a schedule and timetable (and your credit card), and be done with it. As to the original post, Monica: I don’t presume to know you, your husband, or boys, and Joe’s point regarding your husband learning, etc., is valid.  As to the safety of the boys, there is normally no danger associated with fly fishing common sense won’t handle. (Bears Au Poivre, Cottonmouthed Water Rattlers with Uzis, Molotov UPS trucks, and half-dressed, fully hung over ROFFians excluded).  If he doesn’t reply, send an is generally helpful without being a jerk, unlike much of the rest of us… HTH? TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – P.S.  after reading some of the postings, I hope that only those that can honestly help me reply to this posting. That would certainly be a first. Good luck, Joe F.

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"Ken Fortenberry" wrote… There are prodigies in everything I suppose, but I wouldn’t try to teach flyfishing to any child under the age of 10 or 11. I’m inclined to agree with Ken. My almost-three year old loves to try to cast a fly rod on the front lawn, generally making a rat’s nest out of the line–but despite her apparent interest it’s going to be several years until I’d feel safe putting a hook on. –Steve

Steve, If it matters, my mother did the same thing, and was a (unaged) casting champion by 13 or 14. She, and then I started with a little 6 footer and a 1494 Medalist about 4 or 5, and at least a dozen other similarly-aged kids did the same with the same rod – we still have it.   I don’t know your daughter, but I’ve seen 40 year-olds do worse than your description of her, and give up in a temper tantrum.  May I suggest tying her some bright whiffs (so she can track them), setting a hula hoop out and letting her go as she will, instructing if you see any bad habits forming?  If you need a few bright tips and hair, I’ll be happy to drop some in the mail. HTH? TC, R

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"Ken Fortenberry" wrote… There are prodigies in everything I suppose, but I wouldn’t try to teach flyfishing to any child under the age of 10 or 11.

I’m inclined to agree with Ken. My almost-three year old loves to try to cast a fly rod on the front lawn, generally making a rat’s nest out of the line–but despite her apparent interest it’s going to be several years until I’d feel safe putting a hook on. –Steve

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Firstly, the 3 and 5 year old can’t fly fish and shouldn’t be anywhere near where sharp hooks are flying through the air. Um, no.  As I’m sure you’ll soon discover, a 5 Y.O. can fish, although he might not have an interest.  A 3 YO is admittedly a little young, but if so disposed, he can watch and enjoy.  Of course, this depends on the boys, but as a blanket statement, you are flat wrong.  As to flying hooks, jeez, they are not machettes, and, likely, ya gonna get hooked sooner or later, anyway.

It may be possible to teach a 5-yr.-old boy to fly fish; but if you try, it will be far from a "fly fishing getaway" for you, which I presumed was the point of the gift. Joe F.

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I learned to fly fish when I was 4.  I received my first rod when I was 5. Perhaps 3 is a bit too young, but 5 certainly is not.

There are prodigies in everything I suppose, but I wouldn’t try to teach flyfishing to any child under the age of 10 or 11. — Ken Fortenberry

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Joe: The next time my wife is looking for ideas for my birthday can I have her contact you for suggestions? –Stan I’ve given this some deep and honest thought, and I think you need to reconsider.   If it is to be a true "getaway", then he should be able to get away.   I’m sure you love him and he loves you; but no offense, "getaway" means away from you and the kids.   Otherwise, he’s not getting away, he’s just taking it with him somewhere else.

<and lots of excellent cetera snipped

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Firstly, the 3 and 5 year old can’t fly fish and shouldn’t be anywhere near where sharp hooks are flying through the air.

I learned to fly fish when I was 4.  I received my first rod when I was 5. Perhaps 3 is a bit too young, but 5 certainly is not.

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My husband loves to fish and recently mentioned about a friend who received a gift to go fly fishing for the weekend.  As father day is coming (and he is such a good father), I would like to give him a gift of a fly fishing weekend getaway. Anyone have any suggestions? …

http://www.coldspringanglers.com/guides.html — Ken Fortenberry

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My husband loves to fish and recently mentioned about a friend who received a gift to go fly fishing for the weekend.  As father day is coming (and he is such a good father), I would like to give him a gift of a fly fishing weekend getaway. Anyone have any suggestions?  We live in the Washington DC area and don’t want to travel to far (maybe to PA).  He may want the whole family to go, so it must be a kid friendly place.  (two boys 3 and 5). Also, I don’t know the first thing about fly fishing (or fishing period) and have no idea what equipment he would need. P.S.  after reading some of the postings, I hope that only those that can honestly help me reply to this posting. Peace Monica

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband loves to fish and recently mentioned about a friend who received a gift to go fly fishing for the weekend.  As father day is coming (and he is such a good father), I would like to give him a gift of a fly fishing weekend getaway. Anyone have any suggestions?  We live in the Washington DC area and don’t want to travel to far (maybe to PA).  He may want the whole family to go, so it must be a kid friendly place.  (two boys 3 and 5). Also, I don’t know the first thing about fly fishing (or fishing period) and have no idea what equipment he would need. P.S.  after reading some of the postings, I hope that only those that can honestly help me reply to this posting. Peace Monica

Monica, try Meadow Lane Lodge in Warm Springs VA.  Nice country Inn with 2 miles of private Jackson River trout water.  Beautiful place, kid friendly, stuff to do at the Inn and surroundings.  Makes a romantic getaway if you have a baby-sitter.  Check out the URL http://www.meadowlanelodge.com/ For a "further afield" fly-fishing only place try West Branch Anglers along the PA-NY border on the West Branch of the Deleware.  Not very kid-friendly but has a great restaurant and the drift boat trips are great fishing if you catch the water levels right.  I think we have a poster here who guides in the area. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi everyone,    I just received in the mail the chance to order Lefty’s Little Library of Fly Fishing.  Has anyone seen these books?  Or read them?  I am very interested in hearing your opinion.  I think I am going to order them but still wanted some ROFF thoughts.  Thanks. J. Koop McMinnville, OR.   </PRE</HTML

I’ve got the whole library. I’ve read them all. Most are pretty good. Some are very good. Some are so-so. I think it’s worth the price. They are easy to buy one book at a time. Good Luck! Joel Axelrad

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Ditto                     Frank Reid – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got the whole library. I’ve read them all. Most are pretty good. Some are very good. Some are so-so. I think it’s worth the price. They are easy to buy one book at a time. Good Luck! Joel Axelrad

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I sent the bone fishing book back ’cause I figured if this old body gets down there it will be some one spreading my ashes on the water.  Got all the rest though and some pretty good words of wisdom.  I really love the tips and tricks book.                                     Frank Reid

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ditto                     Frank Reid I’ve got the whole library. I’ve read them all. Most are pretty good. Some are very good. Some are so-so. I think it’s worth the price. They are easy to buy one book at a time. Good Luck! Joel Axelrad

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I’m a stream and lake trout fisher.  I purchased and kept the first 10 or so books and then cancelled the subscription because I noticed the books were changing to fishing styles I don’t need. As for reading the books, I’m saving that for retirement.  I’ve got the collection on the book shelf of my retirement home that I hope to occupy full time in about 4 years. Bob

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Hi everyone,         I just received in the mail the chance to order Lefty’s Little Library of Fly Fishing.  Has anyone seen these books?  Or read them?  I am very interested in hearing your opinion.  I think I am going to order them but still wanted  some ROFF thoughts.  Thanks. J. Koop McMinnville, OR.  

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Question:

shouldn’t be too rough less the st.johns rises. Walt if you are reading this, wish you were here. Our thoughts will be with you John… Big Dale

        john:  we are more than 200 miles inland, and hugo (1989) damn near destroyed our old home place.         please consider getting the hell out of there. wayno

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      john:  we are more than 200 miles inland, and hugo (1989) damn near destroyed our old home place.       please consider getting the hell out of there. wayno

Wayno and John, My pal Phil just pointed me in the direction of this thread, and I sincerely hope that Floyd does you no harm. The pictures we received showed Floyd as large as Florida – frightening! Hope you all keep well. — Bill http://www.graigroad.demon.co.uk

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The pictures we received showed Floyd as large as Florida – frightening!

I’d heard it was the size of Texas which, as you probably know, is bigger than planet earth<g. — Charlie…

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The pictures we received showed Floyd as large as Florida – frightening! I’d heard it was the size of Texas which, as you probably know, is bigger than planet earth<g.

Joking aside, John and wayno are worryingly quiet… — Phil Jones

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Joking aside, John and wayno are worryingly quiet…

Floyd pretty much missed John, nothing could hurt Wayno short of a disaster at the Balvenie distillery (Greensboro is well inland), we’ve heard from Jeff under curfew, I’m wondering about Indian Joe in Wilmington. Anybody heard ? — Ken Fortenberry Illini 2 – Tar Heels 1

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Joking aside, John and wayno are worryingly quiet…

True, and I hope for the best. I just heard from a friend in Savannah who said she drove all the way to Tennessee to find a room but there was no damage when she got back. Pretty scary. — Charlie…

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Excuse me…  I thought Balvenie was a single malt, a proper scotch… Are you saying that it’s fabricated in Greensboro..?

LOL ! No sir, I would never insult a proper single malt. I am merely saying that a healthy percentage of the world’s Balvenie production is CONSUMED in Greensboro, North Carolina. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 2 – Tar Heels 1

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nothing could hurt Wayno short of a disaster at the Balvenie distillery (Greensboro is well inland)

Excuse me…  I thought Balvenie was a single malt, a proper scotch… Are you saying that it’s fabricated in Greensboro..? — Phil Jones

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Floyd, now a tropical storm, blew through Maine last night on it’s way to the Maratimes. Heavy rains, some winds, nothing serious really, though the power did go out. I woke up about 2 am when the eye passed over, the silence was deafening. I hope eveyone in it’s path came through safely and you fishing is good for the rest of the year. I’m off to the West Branch of the Penobscot this weekend for a week of salmon fishing. Flyfish

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Floyd, now a tropical storm, blew through Maine last night on it’s way to the Maratimes. Heavy rains, some winds, nothing serious really, though the power did go out. I woke up about 2 am when the eye passed over, the silence was deafening. I hope eveyone in it’s path came through safely and you fishing is good for the rest of the year.

We had an entertaining afternoon here as well, Dave. Plenty of wind though no damage in my area (central MA) and a boatload of rain. Not much more than an inconvenience, really, though I suspect the coastal denizens had a tougher go of it. I’m off to the West Branch of the Penobscot this weekend for a week of salmon fishing.

Good luck to ya! Hope the high water gets the fish moving your way. /daytripper

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floyd’s downpour on eastern nc has really whipped our ass.  we had 15 inches of rain in about 24 hours. many of the towns east of raleigh along rivers and creeks are suffering substantial flooding and water damage.  Greenville has been cut off in all directions by washed out and flooded roads in and around the area.  The Tar River is rising and expected to crest at about 26 feet above normal over the next 2 days. Some folks are being evacuated from the roofs of their homes, others are stranded. The sole remaining power substation serving the city and county (app. 55,000 folks) is in jeopardy of being shut down by the flooding, and if it goes officials fear it will be several days before the current is reestablished.   jeff   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Floyd, now a tropical storm, blew through Maine last night on it’s way to the Maratimes. Heavy rains, some winds, nothing serious really, though the power did go out. I woke up about 2 am when the eye passed over, the silence was deafening. I hope eveyone in it’s path came through safely and you fishing is good for the rest of the year. I’m off to the West Branch of the Penobscot this weekend for a week of salmon fishing. Flyfish

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last report I saw rated Floyd’s force at 155mph, one mph under classification as a Force 5 hurricane.  I understand it is expected to come aground somewhere late tomorrow. My sincere best wishes to those of you, you families and your businesses in the wake of this pending monster.  I was in Charleston in 1992 4 days after Andrew hit and saw the devastation this type of a storm can do and I hope you are all prepared and safe. Larry Medina Thanks, the daughter and two grandkids will probably go to a shelter. I’v got two dogs and two cats which we’ve considered loading in the camper and heading to higher ground but I think I’ll just sit tight with them and weather it out. My wife will make up her mind when the time comes but shes a fiesty ol broad and will probably stay too. I checked the generator and it fired right off so we’ll have power for the pump and icebox. We are inland a bit, bout 50 miles from the cape so shouldn’t be too rough less the st.johns rises. Walt if you are reading this, wish you were here.                                                           John Popp                                                          in Sanford Fl. John, Thanks for the invite, but unfortunately I won’t be able to make it down for this monster. Hang in there bud and do me a favor, if that thing turns inland get the hell out of there. I’ve been through a few to many of those bastards…. From the looks of things, it looks like it’s gonna ride up along the coast and head our way….but don’t trust that river…it can get real big and nasty. Tight windows my friend, Walt — Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

If anybody has watched the news Fl. was treated kindly by floyd. We’re just fine. been cleaning up some limbs and such, nothing big. We did get some high winds(bout 40mph) but nothing spectacular and only 3" of rain. I’ve been watching the news and it seems Fl.’s good fortune was bad fortune for those in the northern climes. Luckily by the time it got there it had weakened significatly. With the advantage of 20/20 hindsighte, it seems some news casters had derogatory statements about those who chose to leave. This was a terribly big and vicious storm as it churned up and just off shore and I hope those statements will not influence those of lesser expierience should the choice again need be made.                                                        John Popp                                                    in Sanford Fl.

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With the advantage of 20/20 hindsighte, it seems some news casters had derogatory statements about those who chose to leave. This was a terribly big and vicious storm as it churned up and just off shore and I hope those statements will not influence those of lesser expierience should the choice again need be made.

Good advice as usual John. Glad you made it through OK, I have a friend that lives near Savannah who evacuated and, though there was no damage when she got back, I hope she’d leave again under the same conditions. I’ve been in (literally) a couple of tornadoes, but hurricanes scare me bad. — Charlie…

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hurricanes scare me bad. — Charlie…

        i talked to pamlico jim this morning, and they are in a hell of a mess in greenville, nc.  no power, no stores open, conditions may not improve for days; the tar river hasn’t even crested yet.  there is only one road open to the outside world. wayno

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…  there is only one road open to the outside world. wayno

…and i took it to watauga county this morning!!! jeff

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nah…a mere 15 inches or so in greenville, nc, but not a drop at elk creek…very bizarre to drive out of greenville where the river is about 27 feet above flood stage to elk creek – it’s even lower than when you guys were here, and crystal clear.  the smallies are beckoning!! jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …and i took it to watauga county this morning!!! Did you get any rain up there? We didn’t get a drop down here. — Charlie…

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Last report I saw rated Floyd’s force at 155mph, one mph under classification as a Force 5 hurricane.  I understand it is expected to come aground somewhere late tomorrow. My sincere best wishes to those of you, you families and your businesses in the wake of this pending monster.  I was in Charleston in 1992 4 days after Andrew hit and saw the devastation this type of a storm can do and I hope you are all prepared and safe. Larry Medina

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Last report I saw rated Floyd’s force at 155mph, one mph under classification as a Force 5 hurricane.  I understand it is expected to come aground somewhere late tomorrow. My sincere best wishes to those of you, you families and your businesses in the wake of this pending monster.  I was in Charleston in 1992 4 days after Andrew hit and saw the devastation this type of a storm can do and I hope you are all prepared and safe. Larry Medina

Thanks, the daughter and two grandkids will probably go to a shelter. I’v got two dogs and two cats which we’ve considered loading in the camper and heading to higher ground but I think I’ll just sit tight with them and weather it out. My wife will make up her mind when the time comes but shes a fiesty ol broad and will probably stay too. I checked the generator and it fired right off so we’ll have power for the pump and icebox. We are inland a bit, bout 50 miles from the cape so shouldn’t be too rough less the st.johns rises. Walt if you are reading this, wish you were here.                                                           John Popp                                                          in Sanford Fl.

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shouldn’t be too rough less the st.johns rises. Walt if you are reading this, wish you were here.

Our thoughts will be with you John… Big Dale

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last report I saw rated Floyd’s force at 155mph, one mph under classification as a Force 5 hurricane.  I understand it is expected to come aground somewhere late tomorrow. My sincere best wishes to those of you, you families and your businesses in the wake of this pending monster.  I was in Charleston in 1992 4 days after Andrew hit and saw the devastation this type of a storm can do and I hope you are all prepared and safe. Larry Medina Thanks, the daughter and two grandkids will probably go to a shelter. I’v got two dogs and two cats which we’ve considered loading in the camper and heading to higher ground but I think I’ll just sit tight with them and weather it out. My wife will make up her mind when the time comes but shes a fiesty ol broad and will probably stay too. I checked the generator and it fired right off so we’ll have power for the pump and icebox. We are inland a bit, bout 50 miles from the cape so shouldn’t be too rough less the st.johns rises. Walt if you are reading this, wish you were here.                                                           John Popp                                                          in Sanford Fl.

John, Thanks for the invite, but unfortunately I won’t be able to make it down for this monster. Hang in there bud and do me a favor, if that thing turns inland get the hell out of there. I’ve been through a few to many of those bastards…. From the looks of things, it looks like it’s gonna ride up along the coast and head our way….but don’t trust that river…it can get real big and nasty. Tight windows my friend, Walt — Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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Question:

If GOD had an airplane, it would be a C180 or C185

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Any C-180 or Maule owners out there? I’d like to buy a taildragger to put on floats during the summer for hunting/fishing/camping, and fly to more sedate destinations in the winter, such as Baja California.  I’d like to carry another passenger, camping gear, plenty of fuel, and some big game such as a caribou. Tentatively, I suspect the C-180 is the way to go, but I could go with a newer Maule by sacrificing a little performance. Any thoughts?

I’d go for the Maule every time.  It’s a solid aircraft that will go a long way towards real STOL than any Cessna.  You’d be amazed what you can do with them.  Cessna was never designed as a bush plane. —                            Nunavut, Canada

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Cessna was never designed as a bush plane. —                            Nunavut, Canada

So, what do you think fellow NG’rs? Too much time in the Bush for Mr.(?) Durey, or not enough? Jack —         :    :<home.earthlink.net/~baron58:                             :

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This is an old argument and should bring out the ‘bush rats’! Just compare the sqft of the wings, that has the biggest effect on load and stall speed.  Here the Cessna wins, hands down.  The Cessna will lift more weight off in a shorter distance. Known ‘bugs’ in the Cessna:     loss of roll control in X wind with full flaps     lack of dampening in spring steel gear     weak gear boxes on really ruff strips     expensive     hard to find a really clean one, lots of really used ones out there The Maule’s STOL reputation is based on performance at less than gross weights and lots of power.  Remember it started out as an adaptation of a short wing Piper.  You can fly anything with lots of power but if at gross weight plane C flys at 45 mph and plane M flys at 50 which plane need more water/dirt?  Power just gets you to the end of the water/dirt quicker! Ross – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any C-180 or Maule owners out there? I’d like to buy a taildragger to put on floats during the summer for hunting/fishing/camping, and fly to more sedate destinations in the winter, such as Baja California.  I’d like to carry another passenger, camping gear, plenty of fuel, and some big game such as a caribou. Tentatively, I suspect the C-180 is the way to go, but I could go with a newer Maule by sacrificing a little performance. Any thoughts?

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What’s a NGer?  New Guy?  That’s what we used to call a "Nugga" or "Nug" for short, back in the bad ol’ days. I think you’re forgetting airfoil.  The short fat Maule wing will fly at an alarming angle of attack.  It’s a great STOL machine, if you know how to push the envelope.  Cessna’s are too fragile to accept much pushing–I’ve seen too many wrinkled empennages and cracked fin brackets.  You drag the Maule in with power, flare with power, and stomp on the binders.  400 feet is typical for me with no wind. There’s also lots of Maules out there that have never been beat to death commercially.  There’s lots with a thousand hours or less on them total time.  They’re also half the price of a Cessna 180. Sure, it’s got a big engine, but ya gotta give Maule credit. They’ve also developed the only readily-available off-the-floor factory single-engine turbine certified for the GA market.  My 0-540 has lots of jam, but the Allison 250 C20B is twice the horsepower with half the weight.  It’s a stunning ride. What’s the power-to-weight ratio for the 180? We looked at the Helio and Wilga for here, but opted for the Maule as a simple platform, easy to work on, and easy to find and buy. Never considered the Cessna. —                            Nunavut, Canada

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…400 feet is typical for me with no wind. Sure, it’s got a big engine, but ya gotta give Maule credit. They’ve also developed the only readily-available off-the-floor factory single-engine turbine certified for the GA market.  My 0-540 has lots of jam, but the Allison 250 C20B is twice the horsepower with half the weight.  It’s a stunning ride.

Here’s a question that hasn’t been introduced to this discussion yet.  What kind of insurance do you carry on your Maule, and what’s the cost.  I’ve heard that Maule insurance is quite expensive, but I have no hard data to support this claim.  I’d like to hear the story from Maule owners. I have a 1955 Cessna 180 which I have insured for $60,000 hull and a million smooth liability, and it costs me about $1400 a year.  How does that compare with a Maule? What’s the power-to-weight ratio for the 180?

Mine is 11.33 pounds per horsepower at legal gross.  However, this figure will vary a little depending on year of manufacture, as all 180s after ‘55 had 230 HP instead of 225 like mine, and the gross weight went up a couple of times as the years went on.  The last ones had a P/W ratio of 12.17 lb/hp. Joe Norris

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I’d like to hear the story from Maule owners. I have a 1955 Cessna 180 which I have insured for $60,000 hull and a million smooth liability, and it costs me about $1400 a year.  How does that compare with a Maule?

On my 1991 Maule M-6 I have $90,000 hull and $1M/$100k liability and this year’s bill was about $1600.  Surprisingly, the rate got much better this year after AOPA Insurance and Aon merged.  I was with Aon before.                                                                 Dave

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If wing area is the reason (as stated in prior post) the Maule is inferior to the Cessna pls note that Maule has used at least three different size wings. The old Maule M-5 did have a smallish wing area (160ish sq ft.) and the plane did depend on the engine for much of its STOL performance.  There are however, two other wings offered on the M-6 and M-7 airplanes that had more wing area. The latest version of Maule has an intermediate size wing with nearly 170sq ft. In any event, it you don’t think the Maule has a large enough wing try one of their other models.

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Before you buy a C-180, or a Maule, look closely at the Helio Super Courier.  It has several features that, I think, makes it a better bush plane.  The main gear is set farther forward making it almost impossible to nose over on landing.  It has a very strong steel tube cage for the cabin which helps to protect the pilot and passengers in a crash.  Some have four tanks carring 120 gallons of gas.  I think all Helios left the factory with float fittings installed.  Most importantly, the Helio was designed from the start to go very slow under full control.  Did you know that the Helio will not stall?  In my opinion, if you can afford to own and fly one, you will have the best horizontally opposed piston engined bush plane ever produced.  There is also a turbine powered version.               Larry

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We looked at a Helio H250 after a search of several months.  All of them had 7,000 to 8,000 hours on them and had seen commercial service (read: beat to death).  An H295 that Bathurst Arctic operated out of Yellowknife on floats turned out to be a real dog. The geared engine is only good for 1200 TBO.  There’s also a lot of maintenance involved in the stabilator.  Otherwise, they’re great. I’ve seen them in the fly-by at Oshkosh literally "walking" down the runway, unbelievably slow.  Up here, with the sand and wind, we couldn’t see the leading-edge slats and Fowler flaps holding up. We regularly get 50-knot winds across the parking ramp. My insurance on the Maule is CAN$1900 hull and liability for a ‘78 M-5 worth about CAN$70,000.  With today’s drop in the Canadian dollar, that’s about US$1197.  ’Course, we don’t litigate up here at the drop of a hat for a hangnail, either, which keeps the liability costs down. —                            Nunavut, Canada

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Any C-180 or Maule owners out there? I’d like to buy a taildragger to put on floats during the summer for hunting/fishing/camping, and fly to more sedate destinations in the winter, such as Baja California.  I’d like to carry another passenger, camping gear, plenty of fuel, and some big game such as a caribou. Tentatively, I suspect the C-180 is the way to go, but I could go with a newer Maule by sacrificing a little performance. Any thoughts?

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Question:

I am searching for a fly box/book.  I have worn out my old one and can not locate a vendor who carries what i am looking for.  The box/book i am looking for has several leafs (felt like) for leadered wet flies and a box compartment for dry flies.  Does anyone know of a fly box/book like i describe?

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        The last time I saw those was when I worked at a store in New Jersey, 10 years ago. They were (are?) made with the brand name "Common Sense" imprinted on them. They may still be in production for all I know. You could call the store and ask them to search for you (Efinger Sporting Goods 908-356-0604). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am searching for a fly box/book.  I have worn out my old one and can not locate a vendor who carries what i am looking for.  The box/book i am looking for has several leafs (felt like) for leadered wet flies and a box compartment for dry flies.  Does anyone know of a fly box/book like i describe?

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Question:

I need advice. What is the best big streamer (3 in.) for fishing a Connecticut alewife lake for Browns?

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I need advice. What is the best big streamer (3 in.) for fishing a Connecticut alewife lake for Browns?

Try a recipe for the Giant Bunker fly described in any saltwater fly patterns book. Alewifes look remarkably close to Menhaden (Bunker). Herring immitations should also be good. Hint: use Bozo hair from Elite. Jose

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I need advice. What is the best big streamer (3 in.) for fishing a Connecticut alewife lake for Browns?

Well, having fished for Northern and Muskie this last summer up in Lake Of The Woods, I no longer thing of a 3" streamer as a ‘big’ fly. Kinda small, actually! <grin Anyway, go with "old reliable" – a Clouser Minnow, with a grey back and white belly. 3" is only about a #4-4XL hook. Use either bucktail or, if you want something REALLY flashy, silver and white Flashabou _dubbing_. They’ll do the job! — Joe Ellis       o/~ The Synthetic Filker o/~ |  TesserAct Studios ()X  Darwin (;       Now on the Web at      | Fairfield, OH 45018 //~~~LL~~~~LL~ http://shell.idt.net/~ellis69 |New Dimensions In Filk! Unsolicited commercial E-mail will be proofread at US$25 hr/2 hr min.

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Try a traditional little brown trout or something like a Silver Doctor. Okay, I’m out of date. — — Louis Bignami Visit http://www.finefishing.com Over 400 articles! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need advice. What is the best big streamer (3 in.) for fishing a Connecticut alewife lake for Browns?

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Try a Gray Ghost.  It’s deadly. MZ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need advice. What is the best big streamer (3 in.) for fishing a Connecticut alewife lake for Browns?

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I don’t know about where you live but a big brown egg sucking leech (heavily weighted) with some yellow maribou mixed in with the brown/black maribou for the tail is my FAVORITE spring-time brown trout fly. I need advice. What is the best big streamer (3 in.) for fishing a Connecticut alewife lake for Browns

– Brian D. Nelson, Missoula, Montana Montana Flyfishing and Hunting Outfitter http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm http://www.montana.com/dno/hunt.htm

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Agree about grey ghosts. Also, try a "beer-belly" zonker in white.

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Question:

Hello I have a Caddis Float Tube and fins.  I have been reading about these force fins.  Where can I get more infor on these fins.  I belong to two Fly fishing Clubs in Cincinnati and I think the membership might be interested in these fins. Hope to hear from someone soon. Thanks for your help Keith Haungs Buckeye United Fly Fishers Northern Kentucky Fly Fishers

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Keith;         Cabela’s sells force fins at a reasonable (albeit still expensive) price.  My wife bought me some a couple of years ago and I love them.                   Dennis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello I have a Caddis Float Tube and fins.  I have been reading about these force fins.  Where can I get more infor on these fins.  I belong to two Fly fishing Clubs in Cincinnati and I think the membership might be interested in these fins. Hope to hear from someone soon. Thanks for your help Keith Haungs Buckeye United Fly Fishers Northern Kentucky Fly Fishers

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Question:

I too started using soft hackle wet flies this year and had great success a week ago on brookies on the AuSable on an orange bodied #16. Don Donald Albrecht A bad day fishing is still better than a good day at work!  <  <

Soft Hackle flies can be very very deadly!  I use a couple patterns: one is just like a hares ear nymph without the wingcase but with a sparse collar of partridge hackle…the other is a body of peacock herl with partridge hackle. They seem to work best when fish are chasing emerging caddis. Paul DiConza NY Capital District Angler

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I’ve been having *super* success fishing a gray soft hackle fly lately. What I do is to use a standard wet fly swing with a slow retrieve at the end.  The rainbow trout in my local stream can’t resist them.  Any other thoughts or possible patterns? Thanks, Bill

Lots of thoughts and lots of patterns.  Try the three books by Sylvester Nemes.  My favorite soft hackle is the March Brown Spider – Hare’s Ear lightly dubbed over orange thread with silver rib and brown partridge hackle.   Ross Wilson

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I’ve been having *super* success fishing a gray soft hackle fly lately. What I do is to use a standard wet fly swing with a slow retrieve at the end.  The rainbow trout in my local stream can’t resist them.  Any other thoughts or possible patterns? Thanks, Bill

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I too started using soft hackle wet flies this year and had great success a week ago on brookies on the AuSable on an orange bodied #16. Don Donald Albrecht A bad day fishing is still better than a good day at work!  <  <

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