Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My most productive winter fly is a Purple Egg Sucking Leech (basically a purple wooley bugger with two turns of chartreuse, flame orange, or bright pink chenille at the head) on a size 4 or 6 hook. The second most productive is one I  call a Clown fly – basically a take-off of a Clown  colored Corkie – a fat body that is one half chartreuse chenille and half  flame orange chenille, with an oversized (2x normal +)white webby saddle hackle on a size 4 -8  standard steelhead bait hook (Gamakatsu or similar). I tie the PESL either weighted or unweighted – use the unweighted in large pools where I can effectively use a fast sink tip and get a good swing (short leader ~ 3′).  On other water I use a floating line, 9-12′ leader, & heavily weighted  PESL with the clown fly dropped off the bend about 18-24". When the water is low and clear and the fish tend to be skittish, a small (12-16) nymph (GRHE, PT, Copper John, etc.) on a 24" dropper from the weighted fly can be very effective. When you really need to get down, a very effective fly here (but one I really hate to use – pure chuck & duck) is the lead-eyed leech – a maribou leech in any of the standard colors with large lead (or tungsten) dumbell eyes.

That’s interesting to find your fly list both short and conventional – sometimes I think I try too hard.  My most productive fly this past season and a half was a purple and black marabou spey with a large, purple Krystal Flash wing and a large neon red head – very close to your PESL.  Last year I did OK dead drifting a black ESL under an indicator, but didn’t get a tap when I swung it. When I need to get really down, I try to avoid the lead eyes, preferring heavy duty sinking heads. I hate to fish deep for steelhead; much prefering to catch them on or near the top. So I pay alot of attention to water temperature.  I have found that if the water temp is above 41deg.F, I can be reasonably successful fishing with a floating line, standard unweighted steelhead patterns ( Skunk, GBS, Purple Peril, etc.) and using either wet fly swing or greased line presentations.  In fact, if the water temp is over 44deg. F, I can have reasonable success fishing riffling patterns ( Bomber, Moose Turd, Waller Walker, etc.) on the surface.  There is no denying though, that much below 45deg F water, you will usually be more successful  going deep rather than fishing on or near the surface for steelhead.  I’ve reached a point though that I’d rather catch fewer fish using methods I really enjoy than employ methods that I find to be not nearly as much fun. Bob Weinberger

Ya, that’s my curse too, persisting with what I like rather than what is needed to catch fish.  Frankly, I think of late I’ve been running too deep, snagging bottom constantly, then switching off to a lighter rig and zooming it over their heads.  This back ‘n forth comes from constantly trying new water of uncertain depth rather than plugging away at the same old, same old and getting to know the depths and features very well.  It certainly reduces my catch rate but perversely, I find it more interesting. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Out this morning, one tap only.  It felt like the fish was nipping at the tail of the fly (rather long) and later when I got a call from a local steelheader, he mentioned that he moves to shorter flies as the fish don’t hit as aggressively when the temps drop. Since we have a few PNW steelheaders here, I’m wondering what they like to use as a winter fly.  The local float rodders tend to use a roe sack that makes the eggs look milky white and chartreuse so I’ve just finished a marabou spey fly that is white over chartreuse – should have the desired appearance.  The local shop owner likes purple, purple and black, or red and black as well. Also curious if you’ve noticed winter steelhead being willing to raise up a foot or so to snare a fly?   I spent too much time on the river bottom beautification program this morning as my tip was too heavy for the slower water, yet when I’m not hitting bottom, I’m second guessing myself about the fly being where the fish are.  The hit btw, was in the middle of a fast, heavy riffle and judging by the tap, tap, tap, the fish was chasing and nipping. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Snip Since we have a few PNW steelheaders here, I’m wondering what they like to use as a winter fly.

Snip My most productive winter fly is a Purple Egg Sucking Leech (basically a purple wooley bugger with two turns of chartreuse, flame orange, or bright pink chenille at the head) on a size 4 or 6 hook. The second most productive is one I  call a Clown fly – basically a take-off of a Clown  colored Corkie – a fat body that is one half chartreuse chenille and half  flame orange chenille, with an oversized (2x normal +)white webby saddle hackle on a size 4 -8  standard steelhead bait hook (Gamakatsu or similar). I tie the PESL either weighted or unweighted – use the unweighted in large pools where I can effectively use a fast sink tip and get a good swing (short leader ~ 3′).  On other water I use a floating line, 9-12′ leader, & heavily weighted  PESL with the clown fly dropped off the bend about 18-24". When the water is low and clear and the fish tend to be skittish, a small (12-16) nymph (GRHE, PT, Copper John, etc.) on a 24" dropper from the weighted fly can be very effective. When you really need to get down, a very effective fly here (but one I really hate to use – pure chuck & duck) is the lead-eyed leech – a maribou leech in any of the standard colors with large lead (or tungsten) dumbell eyes. Snip Also curious if you’ve noticed winter steelhead being willing to raise up a foot or so to snare a fly?

Snip I hate to fish deep for steelhead; much prefering to catch them on or near the top. So I pay alot of attention to water temperature.  I have found that if the water temp is above 41deg.F, I can be reasonably successful fishing with a floating line, standard unweighted steelhead patterns ( Skunk, GBS, Purple Peril, etc.) and using either wet fly swing or greased line presentations.  In fact, if the water temp is over 44deg. F, I can have reasonable success fishing riffling patterns ( Bomber, Moose Turd, Waller Walker, etc.) on the surface.  There is no denying though, that much below 45deg F water, you will usually be more successful  going deep rather than fishing on or near the surface for steelhead.  I’ve reached a point though that I’d rather catch fewer fish using methods I really enjoy than employ methods that I find to be not nearly as much fun. Bob Weinberger – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter

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Question:

Went fishing last weekend up north on a river near the Estonian border, and spent the night at a little B&B where the proprietor was genuinely suprised that I didn’t catch anything, as he assured me the stream was full of browns. I explained my newbie status with a fly rod, and he looked in my nymph case, told me my pheasant tails and hare’s ears should have worked if I dead drifted them down deep in the holes, as the wind was blowing the the dries would have been useless since the fish don’t rise on windy days. So all this week, I planned for my return. I headed out of work at the bell on Friday, stopped at my local FF shop and got some lightweight intermediate sink leader, a few more nymph-looking things, and drove the 1.5 hours up to the river again, turned off onto the woods road, locked in the 4WD hubs, and headed out to the same stretch of stream. As I was getting rigged up next to the truck about 1/4 mile from the stream, I was getting eaten alive by mosquitoes; worst I’ve seen since the Maine woods, so I beat feet to the stream side,, quickly waded out to midstream to lose the bugs, and started drifting my new beadhead nymph. After a few dry casts, I was sure I had spooked the fish while quickly wading out deep, but then something flashed past my head, and landed on the water just about 3 feet in front of me. Something greenish-brown, about the size of a silver dollar. Something I had never seen before, but instantly recognized. At this moment I had a 3-fold revelation. First, seeing my first mayfly was like that surge of recognition you get when you first see the Grand Canyon or the Statue of Liberty. Its been in a million picture books, and you may think you know what it is, but when you see your first one, you realize you were wrong. I actually said out loud, to no one but the river. "Ohh!!! So THATS a mayfly!!" Then a huge swirly rose right under it, and it disappeared in a surge of fin and back, and I realized the second and third revelations: trout aren’t so spooked by someone walking right into their livingroom as I thought, and today was a day to be fishing dries that look like mayflies (duh!). Actually, I had a fourth revelation: I didn’t have any flies that looked like mayflies!! However, I did have a few upright wings, including ‘the magic fly’ (see a previous post); a deer hair caddis that was the right color, almost. If I had a tying kit, I know I would have run back to the car just then, and tied up a bunch of perfect colored mayflys on the spot (revelation five: THATS why people tie their own flies!) So I tied on the caddis, and cast it about where the trout rose. Strike (and a miss). Cast right there again.,,another rise (and another miss). Cast a third time, no reaction. Revelation five: two strikes and you’re out. The fish learn fast. I worked that spot for awhile, then eventually waded my way downstream. Although I only brought a few 8" browns to hand, I knew that a slightly more skilled fisherman would have landed some monster trout, as they were rising for the mayflies all over the place. In fact, I could use the drying mayflies as indicators: if I saw one sitting on the water being left alone, I didn’t even bother casting there. But often when one flew down close to the water, I could cast right there and get a rise every time! I even was getting very clever with my casts: at a certain distance, the fly line would land on the water while the fly was at the top of the turn-over, and the fly would just stall out at the top of the circle, then drop straight down like a falling mayfly. It brought up a rise every time. In fact, for about 2 hours, I got strikes on almost every cast! It was great! Later, I learned that most of my strikes were smaller browns, or those damn local coarse fish. Thats when I got revelation #6: the big fish are very picky, and can tell an deer-hair caddis from a mayfly. And revelation #7: if you don’t keep your standards high, you will get lured into fishing for the little ones (since they are striking) rather than focusing on what it takes to get the bigger ones. So anyway, I got to see my first bonafide mayfly hatch; now I know what all the hype is about. I’m gonna start carrying some realistic looking mayflies with me just for the next time this happens! OBNewbie question: HOW can you entice the big fish to strike without getting all pecked apart by those damn tiny fish? This particiular stream has probably 200 tiny fish per cubic meter of water, and they mess with everything you toss out. riverman

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<SNIP OBNewbie question: HOW can you entice the big fish to strike without getting all pecked apart by those damn tiny fish? This particiular stream has probably 200 tiny fish per cubic meter of water, and they mess with everything you toss out. riverman

Congratulations! Sounds like you had an excellent time. You must concentrate on the big fish Often you can get an impression of the size of a fish, by watching the rises. Large fish displace more water, and the "swirl" is a good indication. If you are catching smaller fish, then you are doing things right, but larger fish are inevitably far more careful. That is how they got large in the first place. Lastly, during mayfly hatches ( Ephemera danica, and similar, which I assume you mean); http://www.bioimages.org.uk/HTML/P46868.HTM it often pays off to try a largish nymph instead of a mayfly.  The technique is to allow the nymph to swing slowly across. where you saw the rise, and then either pull slowly on the line, or raise the rod. This imitates a nymph rising to hatch, and is often irresistible to trout. Also, larger fish always command the best feeding positions. You must consider what you think the best position is, and cast to it. Best of all is of course seeing the fish. When dry fly-fishing, you must always wait for the fish to turn down, before setting the hook. Striking too soon will simply pull the fly out of his mouth.  This is very difficult for "newbies". When the fish takes, count "One hundred, two hundred", and then set the hook.  This will seem like an eternity, and if it is a big fish your hands will shaking, a strange sort of dementia will have gripped you, and every muscle in your body will be screaming "STRIKE!!". Resist them! TL MC

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Some of these might be of help to you; http://www.mayfly.com/tips.htm http://www.flyfishingconnection.com/feedingpatterns.html http://www.flyfishamerica.com/ArticlesReports/GeneralArticles/Kustich… rout/KustichLargeTrout.html and for flies for E.danica etc http://www.algonet.se/~sjostran/English/10134.htm http://figen.com/flyfish/trysil98.html http://www.billmcilroy.freeserve.co.uk/WET%20%20MAYFLY%20PATTERNS.htm http://www.uky.edu/~agrdanny/flyfish/dryfly.htm http://freespace.virgin.net/fly.fishing/mayfly-yellowdrake.html http://www.hookhack.com/dries.html For a massive pattern index, and lots of other interesting stuff; http://home.netc.net.au/~gnaylor/flies.htm Large olive/yellow coloured hackled flies with a bit of orange in them, have always done well for me, and are easier to cast than winged imitations. TL MC

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[Book of Revelations snipped] Sounds like a fun time. As Mike says water displacement often gives away a bigger fish … fishing afternoon/evening rises, which it sounds like you were, should carry over after dark.  Often thats when the bigger fish will come out to feed … especially in hard fished water.  Best part is the fish are twice as big after dark … or at least they feel that weigh. Steve

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Excellent! — Jarmo Hurri address or apply rot13 to header email address.

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At this moment I had a 3-fold revelation. First, seeing my first mayfly was like that surge of recognition you get when you first see the Grand Canyon or the Statue of Liberty. Its been in a million picture books, and you may think you know what it is, but when you see your first one, you realize you were wrong. I actually said out loud, to no one but the river. "Ohh!!! So THATS a mayfly!!" Then a huge swirly rose right under it, and it disappeared in a surge of fin and back,

— Tight lines! / Roger Daytime engineer Lifetime flyfisherman For info on flyfishing in Northern Sweden visit http://home.bip.net/angler/

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<snipped lovely report OBNewbie question: HOW can you entice the big fish to strike without getting all pecked apart by those damn tiny fish? This particiular stream has probably 200 tiny fish per cubic meter of water, and they mess with everything you toss out. riverman

Did you try squinting? They might look bigger.. ) Herman

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Question:

I just got home after the clave…Debbie Ursenbach won a knot machine…

<snipped What is a knot machine?  I love gadgets, in fact my kids call me…never mind what they call me… <)))’    <)))’    <)))’    <’(((<    <)))’    <)))’

"Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality."

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Ernie Harrison won a fly box & over 100 flies donated by Bruiser Vern

Hot damn, thank you Bruiser I can’t wait to see them. Vern, a check is in the mail for postage, thanks for your good work. Ernie

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I just got home after the clave…Debbie Ursenbach won a knot machine… <snipped What is a knot machine?  I love gadgets, in fact my kids call me…never mind what they call me…

http://home.earthlink.net/~eharrison241/ — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

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Hot damn, thank you Bruiser I can’t wait to see them. Vern, a check is in the mail for postage, thanks for your good work.

Now, no one said anything about being able to *see* them!  Bruce ties a lot of those nice midge thingies.  Actually when you get that many lined up you begin to see a pinkish hue against the white fly box background Regards, Jeff

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Hey Ernie, i was glad you won my flies, hope you like them. Bring them to the San Juan where you can use them.  I’ll take you fishing and we can tie a few blood knots. I’m serious about the visit ernie, come on down and bring Darin, RW, Warren, Willi, Charlie, Bob, Dan’l, and all the other Roffers with you. I’ll buy the beer and tie the flies.  On second thought, most of you will probably want to tie your own. There’s about 7 fly shops at the San Juan that need a new gadget in their inventory (I’m thinking blood knot machine). One more time, Warren, you ran a great clave.  I came late, found great people to fish with every day, and had the time of my life.  Can’t wait for Western Clave 2001. bruiser  YES I CAN POST!  YEE HA!  THANKS CHARLIE FOR THE COMPUTER HELP! Before you buy.

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I’m serious about the visit ernie, come on down and bring Darin, RW, Warren, Willi, Charlie, Bob, Dan’l, and all the other Roffers with you. I’ll buy the beer  <unimportant stuff snipped

  When and where is all I need to know. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Bruce,    I am certain I will love your flies.  I have never fished the San Juan but if I ever get down that way I will let you know and you can show me the ropes.  I used to wholesale the Blood Knot Machine several years ago to companies like Hook&Hackle, but just sell a few I have left on the Internet for my own entertainment now. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Ernie, Bring them to the San Juan where you can use them.  I’ll take you fishing and we can tie a few blood knots. I’m serious about the visit ernie, come on down and bring Darin, RW, Warren, Willi, Charlie, Bob, Dan’l, and all the other Roffers with you. I’ll buy the beer and tie the flies.  On second thought, most of you will probably want to tie your own. There’s about 7 fly shops at the San Juan that need a new gadget in their inventory (I’m thinking blood knot machine). One more time, Warren, you ran a great clave.  I came late, found great people to fish with every day, and had the time of my life.  Can’t wait for Western Clave 2001. bruiser

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I wanted to get on roff before doing anything else and post the results of the raffle. Bob Skinner won HoldZit Products donated by Pat R. Pat Reichner won a hat, fly box, flies, second fly box, & flies from the fly swap donated by Warren F.

Thanks Vern….I never made it to the clave or the raffle to pick up my prize.   Please send it ASAP.<g Bob, it was nice of you to pass out your HoldZit products to the rest of the clave fishermen/ladies.  I was hoping everyone got a sample. — Sharp Hooks, Pat Holdzit Fishing Products Inc. http://www.holdzit.com Before you buy.

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I just got home after the clave and after fishing Henry’s Fork, Buffalo River, and the Provo.  Why should the fishing end with the clave?  It didn’t for me. I wanted to get on roff before doing anything else and post the results of the raffle.  I should say that I have not read anything on roff and have no idea if anyone else have made another similar post.  More comments are to come after I clean out the car and get settled back into being home again. Mickey Agua won a quilt donated by Debbie U. Vernon Ursenbach won a bamboo fly-rod donated by Steve Z. Dan Finn won a fly rod donated by Mike C. & a rod tube donated by Tom B. Darin Minor won furled leaders donated by Michael E. & a ff book donated by Ken F. Brian D. Nelson won a knot tool & Simms thing donated by Frank C. & a bottle of wine donated by Dan F. Debbie Ursenbach won a knot machine & rod building info donated by Ernie H. Steve Zimmerman won 2 ff books donated by Kiyu Bob Skinner won HoldZit Products donated by Pat R. Michael Erana won a guided float trip for 2 donated by Brian N.  (There are special conditions that apply.) Bruce Hopper aka Bruiser won a fly box & 4 dozen flies donated by William L. Pat Wilson won a fly box, flies, & complete pheasant hide donated by Bob S. Frank Church T-Shirt & Y2K clave photo donated by Wayne H. Tom Brown won a fly box & flies donated by Dale W. Stephen Barnard aka RW won 2 ff books donated by Kelly R. Pat Reichner won a hat, fly box, flies, second fly box, & flies from the fly swap donated by Warren F. Ernie Harrison won a fly box & over 100 flies donated by Bruiser Dave Snedeker won a Cortland Lazerline WF3F donated by Darin M. Kelly Roger won a bunch of show stuff from Las Vegas donated by Vernon U. William Loehman won a 8′ 2wt fly rod donated by Charles W. Dale Wilkionson won a C&R tool & lanyard donated by RW Warren Findley won a fly reel donated by Walt W. Charles Wilson won a Bastard fly rod donated by Mickey A. (George ?) — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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Bruce Hopper aka Bruiser won a fly box & 4 dozen flies donated by William L.

I saw those flies – they appeared to be really well tied. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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Question:

I’d like to hear your thoughts on a new project I’ve been working on, any suggestions would really help. The idea is to take people fishing or hunting in a corporate aircraft up north or anywhere, instead of driving or taking the airlines and then a bush plane. I can fly people right into the lodges. I just want to hear what you guys think of this. For example I can take people to the James Bay area or Middle Quebec round trip for about $2950 canadian, or $1925 US for three days. I can take a maximum of four people in an executive cabin, so that could mean only $481 US each if there is four of you, each extra day would cost $135 US / day since the aircraft is grounded. Not bad eh! I can fly into any airport up there. Most lodges and guides have small strips which are easily accessible. I can even take Americans from the US into Canada. All trips of course being very flexible and up to you to plan. The aircraft is a pressurized twin Cessna 340A model used for executive and general charters out of Toronto. Please let me know what any of you think. This is in no way a publicity stunt but a way for me to find out if these trips can work out. Thank you and good fishing Ian Mathers

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Not sure of that out of Toronto.  But I know some American that might go for it. Ron

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Question:

Don’t piss off a lawyer true….make a pile of at least 4 or 5 of them first. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

        et tu, brute? wayno, learning to lighten up – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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You guys have more patience with assholes than I have.  I simply filter out his name from the news group.  Then the only problem I have is the band width you give him.  If it continues I filter out the "subject.name".

Yup – that’s my next step. I’d hoped that it wouldn’t come to that – as we all know how tangential threads run around here – and I might miss something good by flushing by threads ;^) Perhaps we should have a standard message that explains the rules of etiquette to them.  If they don’t take that advice then a moderator will simply write a message to filter that persons name.  All who agree will filter it and all who disagree won’t.  The moderator will add the "subject name" of any future posts which deal with the asshole and send it out for filtering

Nope – that won’t fly. First, who wants to be "moderator" of this group? (not me, that’s fer damn sure) Second, it’d be a thankless job – fraught with second-guessing (surely a "damned if you do/damned if you don’t" function). Beyond that, the group is full of people that are using various newsreaders that don’t provide filtering (includes most of MickeySoft’s newsreaders, older versions of Netscape, and whatever it is that AOL forces on its clients). The easiest thing to do for those who use readers sans filtering abilities is to manually SET MODE IGNORE. /daytripper

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  The olive branch is certainly appreciated.  If you read my post to Mr. G and Mr. Connor, I think you’ll see that I recognize the same phenomenon you do.  Furthermore, one of the problems of electronic communications is that participants are not able to actually see how one speaks his words, unable to interpret the non-verbal communication that accompanies pure language. If I swaggered into your imaginary bar and said (to use your words) "what a bunch of silly children!  i came here expecting something different, something that suits *me*; but you drivel-spouting morons aren’t what i was looking for!  and besides, you don’t wear clothes that are universally neat and tidy!" if I said that with a big old grin and a wink, and then bought you all a drink, the reaction might likely be different.     I would like to continue to point out, however, that this is not and never has been about suiting *me* or my *ideal*.   Honestly, that’s rather overstating the case–but I’m beginning to understand that you’re a lawyer, and so I’ll forgive the tendency.  I have been listening in here for a few weeks, and when I’ve had something to add, I’ve added it.  You guys haven’t noticed for whatever reasons.  I would not have peeped my peep, were it not for the fact that I saw others identifying the same gripe.  It struck me as a legitimate gripe.  On my server, this is my only option for a fly-fishing newsgroup.  Seemed reasonable that folks could try to be reasonable in terms of wasting each other’s time.  As I said to Mr. Connor yesterday, the "dog" point of attack suddenly shifted from "don’t read the posts you don’t like" to "geez, the threads are sometimes interwoven, deal with it," which, I mean, you’re a lawyer, you’ve seen this before–doesn’t a sudden switch in logic generally indicate the implicit recognition that the frontline logic isn’t holding up so well?  And the things is, the problem is one that’s really easy to fix.   Really simple.  You know it, I know it, everybody knows it.  So why not fix it?     I know you know what I mean.  Too, I recognize that Mr. George doesn’t control you folks.  It never occured to me otherwise.  I think his was merely an effort similar to yours, using a different tactic, and one that was equally appreciated.   So … peace.   But, please, please, please try to label off-subject posts more clearly.

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<<I suspect that the history books, like most Americans, are going to focus on the success and/or failures he had in meeting his agenda. I am still waiting for  one of his promises from 1992 – a middle-class tax cut..  In the last SOU he promises everyone something.  Typical Clinton. Dave LaCourse

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rw wrote I suspect that the history books, like most Americans, are going to focus on the success and/or failures he had in meeting his agenda. If a guy like Nixon, who did quit in disgrace, can now be viewed warmly for his statesmanship one can only guess at how kind history will be to a man who makes the Teflon Don look like a dirty old fryin pan. Right. History sure remembers those Republicans who failed to convict Johnson warmly. As if!

Yes.  History remembers what people did with their political power.  My point exactly.  Thanks. The Republicans you refer to are remembered for their vindictiveness.  They used their power to punish the South and thereby extended regional enmity and all of its ramifications far beyond the end of the war.  So history doesn’t paint them very kindly.  (I am sure some of you boys out there from the South can wax rhapsodically on this subject for hours!) How ironic that the current crop of Republicans is behaving so like their forebears and likely will reap the same reward from history.  Hmmm…I don’t know the makeup of the Repubs that are really driving this whole thing to the wall, but aren’t they Southern Republicans??? …. Doubly ironic if true. Not only that.  When all is said and done, history is once again going to laud the genius of the "Framers" who had the foresight to require a 2/3 vote for removing the president from office, thereby insuring that a vindictive ‘Minority’ party, that temporarily enjoys a majority in the congress, could not overturn the will of the people. Man.  If your a Repub, that’s gotta hurt. —                                                       -dnc-

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DavPLaC wrote <<Unless the Republican Guard Taliban Party scores on their Hail Mary pass to the witnesses, which is VERY unlikely, Clinton is home free. I would rather commit political suicide ( Repub) than commit moral suicide (Dem).  Clinton will never be "free".  Whether you like it or not, he is *IN* the history books as being impeached, shamed, with more than 85% of the people saying they don’t trust him or believe him.  If a sitting president could have been indicted, he would have been, found guilty,  and gone to jail for 18 months like others guilty of perjury.  I voted for the bastard in ‘92 — shame on me!

I suspect that the history books, like most Americans, are going to focus on the success and/or failures he had in meeting his agenda. If a guy like Nixon, who did quit in disgrace, can now be viewed warmly for his statesmanship one can only guess at how kind history will be to a man who makes the Teflon Don look like a dirty old fryin pan. —                                                       -dnc-

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<<Unless the Republican Guard Taliban Party scores on their Hail Mary pass to the witnesses, which is VERY unlikely, Clinton is home free. I would rather commit political suicide ( Repub) than commit moral suicide (Dem).  Clinton will never be "free".  Whether you like it or not, he is *IN* the history books as being impeached, shamed, with more than 85% of the people saying they don’t trust him or believe him.  If a sitting president could have been indicted, he would have been, found guilty,  and gone to jail for 18 months like others guilty of perjury.  I voted for the bastard in ‘92 — shame on me!

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I suspect that the history books, like most Americans, are going to focus on the success and/or failures he had in meeting his agenda. If a guy like Nixon, who did quit in disgrace, can now be viewed warmly for his statesmanship one can only guess at how kind history will be to a man who makes the Teflon Don look like a dirty old fryin pan.

Right. History sure remembers those Republicans who failed to convict Johnson warmly. As if! — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

<<Unless the Republican Guard Taliban Party scores on their Hail Mary pass to the witnesses, which is VERY unlikely, Clinton is home free. I would rather commit political suicide ( Repub) than commit moral suicide (Dem).  Clinton will never be "free".  Whether you like it or not, he is *IN* the history books as being impeached, shamed, with more than 85% of the people saying they don’t trust him or believe him.  If a sitting president could have been indicted, he would have been, found guilty,  and gone to jail for 18 months like others guilty of perjury.  I voted for the bastard in ‘92 — shame on me!

Would you care to place a bet on whether Clinton will be convicted of one of these "crimes" after he leaves office? — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Mr. G wrote I notice of late that you have been promoting the need for one, and in a way that implies you have one.  I’m sure you do, I just hope it’s in full gear when the Senate decides not to remove you know who from office. By the way, I bit on your $10 bet that the Senate would remove him (IOW, my money is on the Senate NOT removing him)

Sounds like a solid bet to me. Unless the Republican Guard Taliban Party scores on their Hail Mary pass to the witnesses, which is VERY unlikely, Clinton is home free. The voters will remember, just like they remembered about the Republicans shutting down the government. The Democrats will make sure they remember. There will be hell to pay. — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

I for one vote NO for a moderator. Who do you have deciding what’s right and what’s wrong. Conservative Republican Congressmen from southern states?

Oops. That should be "conservative" in quotes, because they very clearly have no interest whatsoever in conservation, especially when it conflicts with the profits of their fat-cat special-interest sugar-daddy campaign contributors. — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

I for one vote NO for a moderator. Who do you have deciding what’s right and what’s wrong.

Conservative Republican Congressmen from southern states? — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Mr. G wrote

I notice of late that you have been promoting the need for one, and in a way that implies you have one.  I’m sure you do, I just hope it’s in full gear when the Senate decides not to remove you know who from office. By the way, I bit on your $10 bet that the Senate would remove him (IOW, my money is on the Senate NOT removing him) ….and double twitch   —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

I for one vote NO for a moderator. Who do you have deciding what’s right and what’s wrong. I hate censorship in all of it’s nasty forms. An occasional commercial spam or a demo spam is ok with me, it provides a few chuckles. If some of you roffians want a moderated group, simply go start one. ROFF is the land of the FREE. –Wataugan Walt

<snippered

Response:

0] : You guys have more patience with assholes than I have.  I simply filter out : his name from the news group.  Then the only problem I have is the band : width you give him.  If it continues I filter out the "subject.name". : Perhaps we should have a standard message that explains the rules of : etiquette to them.  If they don’t take that advice then a moderator will : simply write a message to filter that persons name.  All who agree will : filter it and all who disagree won’t.  The moderator will add the "subject : name" of any future posts which deal with the asshole and send it out for : filtering : Ernie Harrison.. Hey Ernie a standard message has been floating around for awhile. This is it below. With a little editing in could be made ROFF specific  Dear   [ ] sir      [ ] clueless one  [ ] twit          [ ] great man on campus   [ ] madam    [ ] dweeb         [ ] twerp         [ ] comrade   [ ] Elvis    [ ] moon beam     [ ] boor          [ ] Obergruppenfuehrer   [ ] citoyen  [ ] Geek          [ ] grad student  [ ] cur  You are being gently flamed because.   [ ] you continued a boring useless stupid thread   [ ] you repeatedly posted to the same thread that you just posted to   [ ] you repeatedly initiated incoherent, flaky, and mindless threads   [ ] you posted a piece riddled with profanities   [ ] you advocated Net censorship   [ ] you SCREAMED! (used all caps)   [ ] you posted some sort of crap that doesn’t belong in this group   [ ] you posted the inanely stupid ‘Make Money Fast’ article   [ ] you threatened others with physical harm   [ ] you made a bigoted statement(s)   [ ] you repeatedly assumed unwarranted moral or intellectual superiority   [ ] you are under the misapprehension that this group is your preserve   [ ] you repeatedly shown lack of humor   [ ] you are apparently under compulsion to post to every threat   [ ] you are posting an anonymous attack Get a life. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

 The olive branch is certainly appreciated.  If you read my post to Mr. G and Mr. Connor, I think you’ll see that I recognize the same phenomenon you do.  Furthermore, one of the problems of electronic communications is that participants are not able to actually see how one speaks his words, unable to interpret the non-verbal communication that accompanies pure language.

        i am in complete accord with your assessment of some of the problems of this unique sort of communication. If I swaggered into your imaginary bar and said (to use your words) "what a bunch of silly children!  i came here expecting something different, something that suits *me*; but you drivel-spouting morons aren’t what i was looking for!  and besides, you don’t wear clothes that are universally neat and tidy!" if I said that with a big old grin and a wink, and then bought you all a drink, the reaction might likely be different.

        that’s a close call, jeff.  the key is having come to *know* you.  I would like to continue to point out, however, that this is not and never has been about suiting *me* or my *ideal*.   Honestly, that’s rather overstating the case–but I’m beginning to understand that you’re a lawyer, and so I’ll forgive the tendency.

        so far, i have noted two posts that clearly cheered your approach and content.  but i grant you that there may be others out there who are frustrated by the inability of some of us to remain so deadly serious, and boring.  I have been listening in here for a few weeks, and when I’ve had something to add, I’ve added it.  You guys haven’t noticed for whatever reasons.

probably because many of us just don’t want to confine our discussions to the latest method of double hauling, or our last trip to christmas island, or what is the hot setup for flats shirts, or how to fish a ten foot wide stream.  or, we just weren’t interested.  not saying that those were the subject matter of your posts, of course; there i go, "overstating my case" again.   I would not have peeped my peep, were it not for the fact that I saw others identifying the same gripe.  It struck me as a legitimate gripe.  On my server, this is my only option for a fly-fishing newsgroup.  Seemed reasonable that folks could try to be reasonable in terms of wasting each other’s time.  As I said to Mr. Connor yesterday, the "dog" point of attack suddenly shifted from "don’t read the posts you don’t like" to "geez, the threads are sometimes interwoven, deal with it," which, I mean, you’re a lawyer, you’ve seen this before–doesn’t a sudden switch in logic generally indicate the implicit recognition that the frontline logic isn’t holding up so well?

not relevant.  this isn’t a problem in logic, or a legal argument.  it is about manners, and expectations.  And the things is, the problem is one that’s really easy to fix.   Really simple.  You know it, I know it, everybody knows it.  So why not fix it?    I know you know what I mean.  Too, I recognize that Mr. George doesn’t control you folks.  It never occured to me otherwise.  I think his was merely an effort similar to yours, using a different tactic, and one that was equally appreciated.   So … peace.   But, please, please, please try to label off-subject posts more clearly.

i have already begun to function in that fashion.  you may find many others more difficult to persuade.  but i am pleased that you understand that we welcome anyone as a participant in this group.  you will be treated very close to the way in which you treat others.  many folks who were wary about me, and me about them, six months ago, are now close cyberfriends.  be patient.  good to have you,. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

You guys have more patience with assholes than I have.  I simply filter out his name from the news group.

        i like the "find his mommy" approach.  this may be a job for (unspeakable name). wayno the deadly serious – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Just as a point of clarification, Microsoft’s Outlook Express does provide filtering…it’s just hard to find. Unfortunately, I’ve been forced to find the facility lately. Check under Tools on the menu…select Newsgroup Filters… Hope this helps! –Andy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You guys have more patience with assholes than I have.  I simply filter out his name from the news group.  Then the only problem I have is the band width you give him.  If it continues I filter out the "subject.name". Yup – that’s my next step. I’d hoped that it wouldn’t come to that – as we all know how tangential threads run around here – and I might miss something good by flushing by threads ;^) Perhaps we should have a standard message that explains the rules of etiquette to them.  If they don’t take that advice then a moderator will simply write a message to filter that persons name.  All who agree will filter it and all who disagree won’t.  The moderator will add the "subject name" of any future posts which deal with the asshole and send it out for filtering Nope – that won’t fly. First, who wants to be "moderator" of this group? (not me, that’s fer damn sure) Second, it’d be a thankless job – fraught with second-guessing (surely a "damned if you do/damned if you don’t" function). Beyond that, the group is full of people that are using various newsreaders that don’t provide filtering (includes most of MickeySoft’s newsreaders, older versions of Netscape, and whatever it is that AOL forces on its clients). The easiest thing to do for those who use readers sans filtering abilities is to manually SET MODE IGNORE. /daytripper

Response:

 I know you know what I mean.  Too, I recognize that Mr. George doesn’t control you folks.  It never occured to me otherwise.  I think his was merely an effort similar to yours, using a different tactic, and one that was equally appreciated.   So … peace.   But, please, please, please try to label off-subject posts more clearly. i have already begun to function in that fashion.  you may find many others more difficult to persuade.  but i am pleased that you understand that we welcome anyone as a participant in this group.  you will be treated very close to the way in which you treat others.  many folks who were wary about me, and me about them, six months ago, are now close cyberfriends.  be patient.  good to have you,. wayno

DUCK! —

Question:

I’ve bought some stuff from West Marine and had good service. Their catalog is excellent, although it leans more heavily to boating and less to fishing. Still, it’s a catalog worth having, it makes quite a wish book. Their prices are very competitive. Their phone is 1-800-BOATING says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – switch to E&B ,  they are top-notch Excuse my ignorance, who is E&B?? Do you have an 800 number to order catalog?? Thanks E&B is now West Marine.  They bought them last year.

Response:

Cabelas is ok with me – I had a pair of neoprenes that had a slight leak in one foot. I contacted them and  received the information on sending it back. They promptly sent a replacement pair which i’ve been using this Summer with zero problems. Other products are # 1 as well – I feel their service is as good as anyone can offer! Keith Piercey

Response:

Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? They used to be really pleasant and willing to do whatever was needed to make things right when they would screw up an order. Anybody else have any problems with them? Mike

I haven’t had any problems in the 10 +  years I’ve been dealing with them !!

Response:

I recently broke a fish eagle FT fly rod that I bought as blank from CAbelas..the rod was two year old and they not only replaced my blank but the handle, guides and reel seat….all for nothing.  I talked to one of thier area speciallists in Sidney and after he recieved my rod he called me and worked out the details of what I needed. Needless to say I’m totally impressed and I’m going to be a customer for another ten years at least. Rocky Smith

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend of mine called Cabela’s to order a drift sock (otherwise known as a "sea anchor").  The customer service rep asked him, "and how many pairs would you like?"  You figure the $40 price tag would have tipped her off! Maybe she thought they were just Really Good Socks.  :-) — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers!

Response:

Tom,I too have had many totally satisfactory experiences with Cabela’s. Some three years ago I picked up two disparate hobbies – blackpowder shooting and flyfishing. Through many orders Cabela’s has supplied all my black powder needs and most of the flyfishing gear.  All orders were by phone and I found always the sales folk tolerant of my ignorance in both disciplines and helpful in making selections.  On one occasion involving a multipiece order they sent a fly jacket instead of a fly line… they made the switch promptly and without cost to me.   I suspect there are other providers just as good but I certainly can find no fault with Cabela’s. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Mike,     No, every experience I’ve had with them was of the first order. Tom                         <snip Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be goin downhill? any problems with them? Mike

Response:

As much as we should ALWAYS support the local tackle guys, there’s just some things that you can’t buy were you are.  Take me, for instance.  I use a fair amount of bass baits for Pike, but you can’t get Lunker City Plastics, flipping jigs, or spinnerbaits ups here.

Where in Canada are you?  Fishing Plus in Etobicoke has a fantastic selection of soft plastics (Lunker City, Zoom, Gambler, Yamamoto, Phenix, Berkley, Guido Hibdon’s brand, Don Iovino’s brand, and more).  Lots of spinnerbaits, including the Terminator, Stanley, Bulldog, Strike King, Pro-Line, etcetcetc.  Lots and lots of flipping jigs too.  Great service, excellent and most importantly *informed* advice too. Peace, Charles

Response:

A friend of mine called Cabela’s to order a drift sock (otherwise known as a "sea anchor").  The customer service rep asked him, "and how many pairs would you like?"  You figure the $40 price tag would have tipped her off!

Maybe she thought they were just Really Good Socks.  :-) — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers!

Response:

Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? They used to be really pleasant and willing to do whatever was needed to make things right when they would screw up an order. Anybody else have any problems with them? Mike

My wife ordered me a bunch stuff for Christmas from Cabela’s and she was _extremely_ frustrated with the service. They were really uncooperative and did not fill orders completely or handle returns properly. When she threatened to take her business elsewhere, the response was apathetic and she ended up cancelling all her outstanding business and purchased the items through Bass Pro (who she felt did a superb job). Fortunately, she starts shopping in like September, so Christmas wasn’t ruined. I was really shocked at what a shitty job Cabela’s did on her stuff. Now I only buy from them when I get a chance (about once a year) to actually go to their store in Sidney. For mail order I’ve been able to get the items I need from BPS and Netcraft.

Response:

Do you mean Gander Mountain’s mail order business?  Because we have at least 3 Gander Mountain stores here in Michigan. I noticed the mail order business went away shortly after opening the stores. Mushrat Unfortunately, Cabela’s gobbled up Gander Mountain.  I guess now it’s Cabela’s vs. Bass Pro.  Time to do business with the local guys! Bob Scott

As much as we should ALWAYS support the local tackle guys, there’s just some things that you can’t buy were you are.  Take me, for instance.  I use a fair amount of bass baits for Pike, but you can’t get Lunker City Plastics, flipping jigs, or spinnerbaits ups here. As for the Cabela vs Bass Pro Shops, if you can fish for Muskies or Pike, try Reeds for a cat.  I’ve been fairly pleased so far.  Also, here in Canada, there is the Fishing Hole Cat and the Whole Sale Sports Cat.

Response:

A friend of mine called Cabela’s to order a drift sock (otherwise known as a "sea anchor").  The customer service rep asked him, "and how many pairs would you like?"  You figure the $40 price tag would have tipped her off! Pete C

Response:

FWIW, we have had the same good service for many years, with no glitches.  We get about two orders/year. SL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? <snip out of the items I had originally ordered.  Two weeks after the call I finally got written notice that the items were out of stock. That was not the Cabelas I have come to expect. Mark Faulkner

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? They used to be really pleasant and willing to do whatever was needed to make things right when they would screw up an order. Anybody else have any problems with them? Mike In May, two items out of about a 10 item order were wrong – and not even close.  I got two fleece jackets instead of two sets of rain gear pants. First time in many years of Cabela’s orders that that has happened.  I immediately returned them with the appropriate form, requesting the original items.  Weeks passed.  I finally called, and by then they were out of the items I had originally ordered.  Two weeks after the call I finally got written notice that the items were out of stock. That was not the Cabelas I have come to expect. Mark Faulkner

I have never (I try occasionally every couple of years) had quick response to an exchange request. The only way I have found that works is to reorder what I want and return what I didn’t want for credit. I buy almsot nothing from Cabela’s anymore because they are so bad about listing sizes, weights, and strengths. Bass Pro is much better.                                 Erik from SF/Boston

Response:

I haven’t bought too much from Cabela’s in the past but this year I ordered a lot of stuff in several orders.  I had numerous conversations with "product specialists" , sometimes for my ignorance on superlines or more info about a rod or lure and I was always satisfied.  When it was a dimension not in the catalog they would run off and get me an immediate answer. I returned about four things for exchange or refund for reasons varied from broken to not what I expected.  Always prompt and no problems.  So far I like Cabela’s. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill?

Response:

Now that they’ve grown HUGE, I would imagine this kind of thing would start to be a problem.  As Cabela’s got bigger and bigger, I liked doing business with Gander Mountain a lot more.  The no.2 guy is usually trying harder, and customer service is a sure-fire way to pick up repeat customers. Unfortunately, Cabela’s gobbled up Gander Mountain.  I guess now it’s Cabela’s vs. Bass Pro.  Time to do business with the local guys! Bob Scott

Response:

switch to E&B ,  they are top-notch – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? They used to be really pleasant and willing to do whatever was needed to make things right when they would screw up an order. Anybody else have any problems with them? Mike

Response:

Dear Mike,      No, every experience I’ve had with them was of the first order. Recently I unpacked an anchor rode I had purchased nine months ago, but had not used.  I found a flaw in the rope, called them, they offered to replace the rode without hesitation.  That’s beyond the call of duty. Take care, Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? They used to be really pleasant and willing to do whatever was needed to make things right when they would screw up an order. Anybody else have any problems with them? Mike

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FWIW, we have had the same good service for many years, with no glitches.  We get about two orders/year. SL Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? <snip out of the items I had originally ordered.  Two weeks after the call I finally got written notice that the items were out of stock. That was not the Cabelas I have come to expect. Mark Faulkner

what is cabela’s address or phone so i can get a catalog please thanks

Response:

E&B is now West Marine.  They bought them last year.

West Marine is primarily a boating store so you might not find the clerks as knowledgable as those of Cabela’s, as well as having a smaller selection, their prices on lures and such are outrageous.  Walmart is much more affordable. Marcus Ward 505 US 7569 "Voodoo" International 505 Class Yacht Racing Association Central Missouri State University – Department of Psychology http://www.throb.net/mward/

Response:

Go to:       http://www.cabelas.com for a free catalog. BTW I have been buying from them for four years and they treat me like a valuable customer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FWIW, we have had the same good service for many years, with no glitches.  We get about two orders/year. SL Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? <snip out of the items I had originally ordered.  Two weeks after the call I finally got written notice that the items were out of stock. That was not the Cabelas I have come to expect. Mark Faulkner what is cabela’s address or phone so i can get a catalog please thanks

Response:

what is cabela’s address or phone so i can get a catalog please thanks

www.cabelas.com or (800) 237-4444.  I’ve had good service frim them so far.

Response:

Do you mean Gander Mountain’s mail order business?  Because we have at least 3 Gander Mountain stores here in Michigan. I noticed the mail order business went away shortly after opening the stores. Mushrat – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unfortunately, Cabela’s gobbled up Gander Mountain.  I guess now it’s Cabela’s vs. Bass Pro.  Time to do business with the local guys! Bob Scott

Response:

<snip  Time to do business with the local guys! Bob Scott

It always has been! — Steve Vaughn Kodak Park Health, Safety & Environmental Services Eastman Kodak Company – http://www.kodak.com Phone: (716)722-4744 Fax:   (716)722-3695

Response:

Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? They used to be really pleasant and willing to do whatever was needed to make things right when they would screw up an order. Anybody else have any problems with them?

I haven’t ordered from them since about February, but every time I’ve had to deal with their customer service people I’ve been happy.  Last fall I placed an order and when it showed up the box had been damaged and most of the stuff was gone.  They replaced everything, no problem.  In February I ordered some peacock sword from them, and the catalog said there were six swords per package.  When it showed up there were only four swords in the package.  I called and they sent another package (of four swords to make it right.  So I’m pretty happy when it comes to dealing with Cabelas. — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers!

Response:

Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? They used to be really pleasant and willing to do whatever was needed to make things right when they would screw up an order. Anybody else have any problems with them? Mike

Response:

Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? They used to be really pleasant and willing to do whatever was needed to make things right when they would screw up an order. Anybody else have any problems with them? Mike

In May, two items out of about a 10 item order were wrong – and not even close.  I got two fleece jackets instead of two sets of rain gear pants. First time in many years of Cabela’s orders that that has happened.  I immediately returned them with the appropriate form, requesting the original items.  Weeks passed.  I finally called, and by then they were out of the items I had originally ordered.  Two weeks after the call I finally got written notice that the items were out of stock. That was not the Cabelas I have come to expect. Mark Faulkner

Response:

Question:

What about streams and rivers ina around yellowstone?

Response:

I’m planning to visit Yellowstone NP in the second half of June.  Does anyone have any suggestions for flyfishing locations, techniques, or patterns during this time of year? Thanks. — John Stoeckel

Response:

Float tube on Yellowstone Lake for Cutthroats w/ bead head wooly buggers

Response:

Stop by Park’s Fly shop in Gardiner, Mont., at the north entrance of the Park. some of the nicest folks you could ask for — not the usual pushy "salesmen" you will find. They will give you a Park map, and even mark it for you. Find Indian Creek, and take a bunch of sturdy hoppers. You can fish most of this stream from the bank, with little or no problem from overhangs. Everytime I’ve fished this beautiful stream, I’ve had great luck. Not many monsters, but a super site with lots of action. Have a great trip !!! Don Hurst

Response:

Kelley730 writes: Float tube on Yellowstone Lake for Cutthroats w/ bead head wooly buggers

You’ll have to wait til July to do that, unless they’ve changed the regs. Lewis Lake is open, though, and the same strategy should work.   Bring some stonefly dry patterns too. CQ

Response:

bring your wet suit and kayak. —

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi. Perhaps not, but here is what is posted on The River Alliance of Wisconsin website: http://www.igc.apc.org/wisrivers/ "Victory on the St. Croix River Department of Interior Vetoes Stillwater Bridge As a New Year’s present to the St. Croix the Department of the Interior decided to veto the proposed Stillwater Bridge across the National Wild and Scenic St. Croix River. The decision came partly as a result of public pressure from concerned citizens. Hmmm…. It is very strange to read this article. As a resident of Stillwater for the past 10 years, I can tell you this bridge project, or a number like it, have been around since I’ve been here. Last I heard the project was still on. Here is a quote from another article I found.    Still on this year’s list are West Virginia’s Corridor H project,    Indiana’s I-69, Connecticut’s Route 6, California’s I-710, U.S.    Forest Service roads, the Automated Highway System and    Minnesota’s Stillwater Bridge.  Meanwhile, the Stillwater bridge    project’s inclusion in Green Scissors for a second year promoted    more calls for the project’s re-evaluation.  In a Minneapolis Star    Tribune article, (2/5) Rep. Jim Randstad, (R-MN) who endorsed    the report, criticized the bridge project: "They need to go back to    the drawing board.  (The project) needs to be scaled down    consistent with the area’s environment." Declaring "Victory" sounds very bizarre to me. We have very complex situation here. First, the current Stillwater bridge is deteriorating fast, (not to mention that it is a hideous monstrosity). Second, the recreational pressures on the St Croix Valley are tremendous and Stillwater is at the epicenter of this pressure. The result, a huge traffic jam every Saturday & Sunday, morning and evening. Third, while the St Croix is a "National Scenic Waterway", the area they are planning to build is hardly the most scenic part of the river. NSP plant just down river, Stillwater Water Treatment is right there. A bridge is needed, but not one of the scale they have planned. -Michael                                                                        

 This is helpful, because it strongly suggests this is NOT the same proposed bridge.  The one I was talking about would be over the St. Croix itself and IN WISCONSIN, not Minnesota!

Response:

This is helpful, because it strongly suggests this is NOT the same proposed bridge.  The one I was talking about would be over the St. Croix itself and IN WISCONSIN, not Minnesota!

The St. Croix River is the border between Wi and MN from Prescott WI (About 20 miles SE of St. Paul) north to St. Croix Falls (maybe a little further north.)   If they’re talking about the Stillwater bridge I doubt the project will seriously effect the scenic value of the area which is essentially suburban.  (5 miles downstream I-94 crosses the river on two large bridges.  4 miles downstream a railroad bridge crosses the river.)  For a glimpse of the Stillwater bridge watch the movie "Grumpier Old Men".  The scene where Mel and the guy are breaking up is shot on the waterfront in Stillwater with the bridge in the background. If they’re talking about a bridge over the St. Croix where its inland in Wisconsin then I have to know if we’re talking about a one culvert bridge or a two culvert bridge?  (Its not that big a river farther north.) John Close

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi. Perhaps not, but here is what is posted on The River Alliance of Wisconsin website: http://www.igc.apc.org/wisrivers/ "Victory on the St. Croix River Department of Interior Vetoes Stillwater Bridge As a New Year’s present to the St. Croix the Department of the Interior decided to veto the proposed Stillwater Bridge across the National Wild and Scenic St. Croix River. The decision came partly as a result of public pressure from concerned citizens. The Sierra Club, Northstar Chapter, in Minnesota, spearheaded the effort to protect the river. In early December the River Alliance teamed up with the Sierra Club to send an Urgent Alert to 600+ River Alliance members across Wisconsin asking them to write to Secretary of the Interior, Bruce Babbitt. William Schenk, Park Service Midwest Area Director, said of the project, "the massive structure would adversely affect the natural and historic scene, altering the scenic qualities of this segment of the river more than any development since designation as a National Wild and Scenic Riverway." The unnecessary project would have increased urban sprawl and added a large cement structure to a previously untouched area of the riverway. This project would have forever changed the character of the area. Sara Johnson, Executive Director of the River Alliance, said of the decision, "What a great way to start the New Year. The bridge was a terrible idea and we applaud the Department of the Interior for stopping the project. This decision sends a strong message that our Wild and Scenic Rivers are national treasures not to be messed with." If you know of another bridge project, I’d be glad to hear about it.                                                                        

 THANK YOU very much!!!  I’ll bet it’s the same one after all—weird that the local newspaper that printed the story didn’t say a word about this deus-ex-machina manuever by the Dept. of the Interior!—but if I learn any more about it I’ll post it.  Thanks again!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi. Perhaps not, but here is what is posted on The River Alliance of Wisconsin website: http://www.igc.apc.org/wisrivers/ "Victory on the St. Croix River Department of Interior Vetoes Stillwater Bridge As a New Year’s present to the St. Croix the Department of the Interior decided to veto the proposed Stillwater Bridge across the National Wild and Scenic St. Croix River. The decision came partly as a result of public pressure from concerned citizens.

Hmmm…. It is very strange to read this article. As a resident of Stillwater for the past 10 years, I can tell you this bridge project, or a number like it, have been around since I’ve been here. Last I heard the project was still on. Here is a quote from another article I found.    Still on this year’s list are West Virginia’s Corridor H project,    Indiana’s I-69, Connecticut’s Route 6, California’s I-710, U.S.    Forest Service roads, the Automated Highway System and    Minnesota’s Stillwater Bridge.  Meanwhile, the Stillwater bridge    project’s inclusion in Green Scissors for a second year promoted    more calls for the project’s re-evaluation.  In a Minneapolis Star    Tribune article, (2/5) Rep. Jim Randstad, (R-MN) who endorsed    the report, criticized the bridge project: "They need to go back to    the drawing board.  (The project) needs to be scaled down    consistent with the area’s environment."   Declaring "Victory" sounds very bizarre to me. We have very complex situation here. First, the current Stillwater bridge is deteriorating fast, (not to mention that it is a hideous monstrosity). Second, the recreational pressures on the St Croix Valley are tremendous and Stillwater is at the epicenter of this pressure. The result, a huge traffic jam every Saturday & Sunday, morning and evening. Third, while the St Croix is a "National Scenic Waterway", the area they are planning to build is hardly the most scenic part of the river. NSP plant just down river, Stillwater Water Treatment is right there. A bridge is needed, but not one of the scale they have planned. -Michael

Response:

Yesterday I got another shock:  It seems there is now a debate over building a huge modern goddamn BRIDGE over the river…or perhaps downstream over the St. Croix into which the Namekagon flows, which is (has been?) equally wild and gorgeous.  I suggested that the "wild river" designation might induce a false sense of security among those who care about such matters…? Fortunately that bridge was vetoed by the Department of the Interior. For more information, you might check out the River Alliance of Wisconsin website.  I don’t have the url handy but you can link there from http://www.awa.org/awa/affil_clubs/rts.htm

Wild and Scenic has meant improving the road, blocking off the pull over on the shoulder where we use to park to scout Pin Ball , building over priced signs and getting on the web for the ——. Next will come the fees, permits and the crowds. I’m sure it has also done some good that I haven’t noticed.                                gene

Response:

Yesterday I got another shock:  It seems there is now a debate over building a huge modern goddamn BRIDGE over the river…or perhaps downstream over the St. Croix into which the Namekagon flows, which is (has been?) equally wild and gorgeous.  I suggested that the "wild river" designation might induce a false sense of security among those who care about such matters…? Fortunately that bridge was vetoed by the Department of the Interior. For more information, you might check out the River Alliance of Wisconsin website.  I don’t have the url handy but you can link there from http://www.awa.org/awa/affil_clubs/rts.htm                                                                        

 Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi.

Response:

 Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi.

Perhaps not, but here is what is posted on The River Alliance of Wisconsin website: http://www.igc.apc.org/wisrivers/ "Victory on the St. Croix River Department of Interior Vetoes Stillwater Bridge As a New Year’s present to the St. Croix the Department of the Interior decided to veto the proposed Stillwater Bridge across the National Wild and Scenic St. Croix River. The decision came partly as a result of public pressure from concerned citizens. The Sierra Club, Northstar Chapter, in Minnesota, spearheaded the effort to protect the river. In early December the River Alliance teamed up with the Sierra Club to send an Urgent Alert to 600+ River Alliance members across Wisconsin asking them to write to Secretary of the Interior, Bruce Babbitt. William Schenk, Park Service Midwest Area Director, said of the project, "the massive structure would adversely affect the natural and historic scene, altering the scenic qualities of this segment of the river more than any development since designation as a National Wild and Scenic Riverway." The unnecessary project would have increased urban sprawl and added a large cement structure to a previously untouched area of the riverway. This project would have forever changed the character of the area. Sara Johnson, Executive Director of the River Alliance, said of the decision, "What a great way to start the New Year. The bridge was a terrible idea and we applaud the Department of the Interior for stopping the project. This decision sends a strong message that our Wild and Scenic Rivers are national treasures not to be messed with." If you know of another bridge project, I’d be glad to hear about it.

Response:

Yesterday I got another shock:  It seems there is now a debate over building a huge modern goddamn BRIDGE over the river…or perhaps downstream over the St. Croix into which the Namekagon flows, which is (has been?) equally wild and gorgeous.  I suggested that the "wild river" designation might induce a false sense of security among those who care about such matters…?

Fortunately that bridge was vetoed by the Department of the Interior. For more information, you might check out the River Alliance of Wisconsin website.  I don’t have the url handy but you can link there from http://www.awa.org/awa/affil_clubs/rts.htm

Response:

I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land, they can’t regulate it. hmm.  The Yellow Dog River in the western upper peninsula is a designated Wild and Scenic River.  It starts in a national wilderness area and flows through that area only a couple miles, and then flows the rest of its length through state lands, but still designated Wild and Scenic along its entire length. are there exceptions? ——Muskie

A single stretch can be designated either Wild, Scenic or Recreational or all three depending on the amount of development and access at each segment.  Take a look at http://www.nps.gov/ccso/wildriverslist.htm for a complete list.  Thanks for the info.  Yea we’re up here in GodforsakenMontana- more snow this December than any other single month in history.  Should have some good flows through the whole summer…  I’m still looking for any type of Wild and Scenic info I can find on how the designation affects the people and businesses afterwards.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land, they can’t regulate it. hmm.  The Yellow Dog River in the western upper peninsula is a designated Wild and Scenic River.  It starts in a national wilderness area and flows through that area only a couple miles, and then flows the rest of its length through state lands, but still designated Wild and Scenic along its entire length. are there exceptions? ——Muskie A single stretch can be designated either Wild, Scenic or Recreational or all three depending on the amount of development and access at each segment.  Take a look at http://www.nps.gov/ccso/wildriverslist.htm for a complete list.  Thanks for the info.  Yea we’re up here in GodforsakenMontana- more snow this December than any other single month in history.  Should have some good flows through the whole summer…  I’m still looking for any type of Wild and Scenic info I can find on how the designation affects the people and businesses afterwards.                                                                        

 I don’t know if this is within the ball-park as to what you want, but here goes:  A while ago I wrote about the construction of a huge Interstate section along the Namekagon River, a gorgeous river in Northwest Wisconsin that was the first river to go under the "protection" of federal designation as a "wild river"…long BEFORE the Intersate was built.  My point (apparently misunderstood) was that such designation apparently did nothing to protect the river in that case.  Yesterday I got another shock:  It seems there is now a debate over building a huge modern goddamn BRIDGE over the river…or perhaps downstream over the St. Croix into which the Namekagon flows, which is (has been?) equally wild and gorgeous.  I suggested that the "wild river" designation might induce a false sense of security among those who care about such matters…?

Response:

 I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are  administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land,  they can’t regulate it.  hmm.  The Yellow Dog River in the western upper peninsula is a designated Wild and Scenic River.  It starts in a national wilderness area and flows through that area only a couple miles, and then flows the rest of its length through state lands, but still designated Wild and Scenic along its entire length.  are there exceptions? ——Muskie

Response:

There is a FEDERAL wild and scenic rivers act as well as individual state designations.  The state and federal designations may overlap, conflict or complement one another in a specific situation.  Most Wild and Scenic rivers involve several jurisdictions, ie. BLM, USFS, private landowners, BIA, NativeAmerican tribes, state owned lands. Under either designation (state or federal) developing a use plan is a very complex process involving an incredible balancing act among all the competing interests.  The plans for the Deschutes and Metolius in Oregon as an example have been going since the late 80s and some issues are not yet resolved.  You might contact Oregon Parks and Recreation(via the web) or the BLM (Prineville Office) for info or copies of plans.  Also the BLM or USFS in Idaho for the upper Snake river plan. I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land, they can’t regulate it. hmm.  The Yellow Dog River in the western upper peninsula is a designated Wild and Scenic River.  It starts in a national wilderness area and flows through that area only a couple miles, and then flows the rest of its length through state lands, but still designated Wild and Scenic along its entire length. are there exceptions? ——Muskie

Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                           Tom McGuane

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the | process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. | | Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of | this designation from the point of view of recreationists, | land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of | work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? | | Many thanks, | I am cross-posting this request to rec.boats.paddle newsgroup. This might be a potential source of contacts who have experience from which you might benefit.

Ooops… meant to say Colorado…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the | process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. | | Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of | this designation from the point of view of recreationists, | land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of | work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? | | Many thanks, | I am cross-posting this request to rec.boats.paddle newsgroup. This might be a potential source of contacts who have experience from which you might benefit. Big Sky…. as in Montana? What rivers? Know the East Glacier area…. Although I am also familiar with Great Falls, however, when going to Montana to play, Great Falls is not high on the list. Jeanne                                                                        

 I don’t KNOW, but see my responses above under "Elitism…" or the like.

Response:

I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of this designation from the point of view of recreationists, land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? Many thanks,

Response:

| I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the | process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. | | Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of | this designation from the point of view of recreationists, | land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of | work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? | | Many thanks, | I am cross-posting this request to rec.boats.paddle newsgroup. This might be a potential source of contacts who have experience from which you might benefit.

Response:

I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land, they can’t regulate it. — Brian D. Nelson, Missoula, Montana Montana Flyfishing and Hunting Outfitter http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm http://www.montana.com/dno/hunt.htm

Response:

I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic.

Here’s a starting point or two: http://www.sierraclub.org/ http://www.cwo.com/~trout/ Anglerboy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the | process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. | | Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of | this designation from the point of view of recreationists, | land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of | work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? | | Many thanks, | I am cross-posting this request to rec.boats.paddle newsgroup. This might be a potential source of contacts who have experience from which you might benefit.

Big Sky…. as in Montana?   What rivers?   Know the East Glacier area…. Although I am also familiar with Great Falls, however, when going to Montana to play, Great Falls is not high on the list. Jeanne

Response:

Question:

A Monday, Sept. 30, 1996 article from The New York Post                                     Harlem angler snags body    A homeless woman fishing in the Harlem River snagged a badly decomposed body last night.  The woman was fishing at the water’s edge at E. 135th St. near Metro-North railroad bridge in Manhattan at about 7:15 p.m.  Police said the body was so badly decomposed that its sex couldn’t be determined. It was taken to the medical examiner’s office for an autopsy. Tight Lines Bob Hill

Since 1990, two bodies have been found on the Roaring Fork, foul play invovled in both incidents. So, when I’m fishing for whities in one of the Fork’s deeeper holes and smell something rotting near the heap of driftwood at the back of the pool, I just call it an unfortunate beaver and head for the next hole. Mitch

Response:

A Monday, Sept. 30, 1996 article from The New York Post                                     Harlem angler snags body    A homeless woman fishing in the Harlem River snagged a badly decomposed body last night.  The woman was fishing at the water’s edge at E. 135th St. near Metro-North railroad bridge in Manhattan at about 7:15 p.m.  Police said the body was so badly decomposed that its sex couldn’t be determined. It was taken to the medical examiner’s office for an autopsy. Tight Lines Bob Hill

damned, I wish you would stick to the important issues or point. George Gehrke/Mr. Gink

Response:

Fereira) writes: attempted to gut and butcher her catch at streamside, a clear violation of urban fishing etiquette.  Let this be an example to all you potential poachers, jack-lighters and trespass fishermen in NYC.  There is zero tolerance for straying off the straight and narrow path here. It was yet another example of mutilation due to the result of C&R.

I’ve been told it’s bad form to gut and butcher prior to a release.             Jim

Response:

Was she using a wet or a dry, and what pattern? Lolo Mt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A Monday, Sept. 30, 1996 article from The New York Post                                     Harlem angler snags body    A homeless woman fishing in the Harlem River snagged a badly decomposed body last night.  The woman was fishing at the water’s edge at E. 135th St. near Metro-North railroad bridge in Manhattan at about 7:15 p.m.  Police said the body was so badly decomposed that its sex couldn’t be determined. It was taken to the medical examiner’s office for an autopsy. Tight Lines Bob Hill

Response:

A Monday, Sept. 30, 1996 article from The New York Post                                     Harlem angler snags body    A homeless woman fishing in the Harlem River snagged a badly decomposed body last night.  The woman was fishing at the water’s edge at E. 135th St. near Metro-North railroad bridge in Manhattan at about 7:15 p.m.  Police said the body was so badly decomposed that its sex couldn’t be determined. It was taken to the medical examiner’s office for an autopsy. Tight Lines Bob Hill

Response:

A Monday, Sept. 30, 1996 article from The New York Post                                     Harlem angler snags body    A homeless woman fishing in the Harlem River snagged a badly decomposed body last night.  The woman was fishing at the water’s edge at E. 135th St. near Metro-North railroad bridge in Manhattan at about 7:15 p.m.  Police said the body was so badly decomposed that its sex couldn’t be determined. It was taken to the medical examiner’s office for an autopsy. Tight Lines Bob Hill

The body was determined to be a female and so the angler was immediately arrested as she was not in possession of a valid doe permit and she attempted to gut and butcher her catch at streamside, a clear violation of urban fishing etiquette.  Let this be an example to all you potential poachers, jack-lighters and trespass fishermen in NYC.  There is zero tolerance for straying off the straight and narrow path here. Stan

Response:

: A Monday, Sept. 30, 1996 article from The New York Post :                                     Harlem angler snags body :    A homeless woman fishing in the Harlem River snagged a badly decomposed : body last night.  The woman was fishing at the water’s edge at E. 135th St. : near Metro-North railroad bridge in Manhattan at about 7:15 p.m.  Police : said the body was so badly decomposed that its sex couldn’t be determined. : It was taken to the medical examiner’s office for an autopsy. *(sigh)*  It has become an almost regular thing here in Ohio for a fisherman to discover a body. :-O Jon Porter

Response:

What kind of fly was she using? mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A Monday, Sept. 30, 1996 article from The New York Post                                     Harlem angler snags body    A homeless woman fishing in the Harlem River snagged a badly decomposed body last night.  The woman was fishing at the water’s edge at E. 135th St. near Metro-North railroad bridge in Manhattan at about 7:15 p.m.  Police said the body was so badly decomposed that its sex couldn’t be determined. It was taken to the medical examiner’s office for an autopsy. Tight Lines Bob Hill

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A Monday, Sept. 30, 1996 article from The New York Post                                     Harlem angler snags body    A homeless woman fishing in the Harlem River snagged a badly decomposed body last night.  The woman was fishing at the water’s edge at E. 135th St. near Metro-North railroad bridge in Manhattan at about 7:15 p.m.  Police said the body was so badly decomposed that its sex couldn’t be determined. It was taken to the medical examiner’s office for an autopsy. Tight Lines Bob Hill The body was determined to be a female and so the angler was immediately arrested as she was not in possession of a valid doe permit and she attempted to gut and butcher her catch at streamside, a clear violation of urban fishing etiquette.  Let this be an example to all you potential poachers, jack-lighters and trespass fishermen in NYC.  There is zero tolerance for straying off the straight and narrow path here.

It was yet another example of mutilation due to the result of C&R. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

   A homeless woman fishing in the Harlem River…

Pshew…and I complain about fishing with the crowds on the pan… Perspective, man. TimW

Response:

   A homeless woman fishing in the Harlem River …

God this image is haunting me. This woman is an angler, my friends.  Better than the lot of us lashed together.  Let’s get together and buy her a bus ticket to Ennis or something, Jesus. TimW

Response:

: This woman is an angler, my friends.  Better than the lot of us : lashed together.  Let’s get together and buy her a bus ticket to : Ennis or something, Jesus. Vail.  I hear she can catch big ones right in the middle of town. — Rick "still punchin’" Fletcher T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Question:

Fly Rod Wanted. I would like to purchase a used Sage SP in 3-6 wt. best price. This is not a commercial thing, I love fly fishing and want to have a nice rod (s). Thank you very much. Russ

Response:

: Fly Rod Wanted. I would like to purchase a used Sage SP in 3-6 wt. : best price. This is not a commercial thing, I love fly fishing and want : to have a nice rod (s). Thank you very much. Russ  The Sage company, and others like it in the flyfishing industry, have a pricing strategy in place that prevents price wars on their products. To carrry thier products, you have to agree on the manufacturors set price. To answer your question, the only thing anybody will save you money on, is shipping

Response: