Question:

For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm

Response:

For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm

That’s fucking twisted, son…

Response:

That’s fucking twisted, son…

NO, HE SAID IT WAS *ALUMINUM*, NOT "TWISTED, SON."   HTH. <g — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

That’s fucking twisted, son…

<snipped Was just watching the news and heard……. twisted indeed. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm

        damn you, vern, you have no mercy!! wayno

Response:

For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm That’s fucking twisted, son…

Maybe, but the man knows his frogs.  You run a good service, burley. Scott

Response:

Not as bad as selling DNA though….. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm That’s fucking twisted, son… Maybe, but the man knows his frogs.  You run a good service, burley. Scott

Response:

If your interested, I could put you on to a Td Williams fly fishing outfit from sears…..never been used…. john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm

Response:

Question:

Hi All, We went to BC last week and the water was high because they have had a lot of  unusual rain the past month or so. I had a customer by that lives in Great Falls, MT and he said they were in a draught? What is happening out your way? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

Response:

My favorite rivers flooded last week, so we fished bluegills and went out for draughts afterwards (BBC Pale Ale – heavy on the Cascade hops this summer).  Definitely no drought in Massachusetts this year.  It hasn’t hit 90 degrees (F) in over a month.

Raining like heck in Juneau, Alaska and it hasn’t hit 90 degrees since we’ve been keeping records.

Response:

It is still hot in Dallas. Duh!! remember we are not all that far from Wichita Falls which has the claim of one of the most appropriately named bicycle races in a few weeks, The Hotter Than Hell 100. Lake Lewisville is still over 13 feet low. Big Dale .

Response:

My favorite rivers flooded last week, so we fished bluegills and went out for draughts afterwards (BBC Pale Ale – heavy on the Cascade hops this summer).  Definitely no drought in Massachusetts this year.  It hasn’t hit 90 degrees (F) in over a month.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We went to BC last week and the water was high because they have had a lot of  unusual rain the past month or so. I had a customer by that lives in Great Falls, MT and he said they were in a draught? What is happening out your way? Bill Kiene

Response:

What is happening out your way?

Serious drought in Georgia. — Charlie…

Response:

Wet and cool in Ontario – all of the rivers are high and we’ve had a few floods. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

What is happening out your way?

reporting from north carolina:         it’s been a great year for bermuda grass.  the golf course fairways are lush and green.  of course, i live in paradise.  in fact, there is a little town about 20 miles northwest of here by the name of "eden". wayno

Response:

Hi All, What is happening out your way?

Big Dale covered the DFW area (hotter’n hell, 11 or 12 days over 100, and dry) and it was hot (mid 90s), with a little rain in Orlando area, raining to beat all hell on the MS/AL Gulf Coast, particularly Mobile. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

Response:

Well, in Ohio farmers are expecting exceptional corn crops…….spring rains have been the pits. Of course this is smallmouth bas country which is some fine fishing.  This spring as the fishing started to heat up we began having rains.  Oh, you could find a place to fish but my usual haunts were high and muddy.  About the time you thought you could go fishing tomorrow, put a hurtin on me. So for a month I was unable to fish….and this while the wife and little girl were out of town.  By the time the water was fishable again, boom, summer was here….algae, green water the whole bit. Early morning and late evening were the ticket….I just missed out on a whole spring of fishing…….john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, We went to BC last week and the water was high because they have had a lot of  unusual rain the past month or so. I had a customer by that lives in Great Falls, MT and he said they were in a draught? What is happening out your way? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

Response:

Lotta Summer rain here in Maryland.  Some of the stockies are still around, as the rain has kept the rivers cool.  Temp was in the 70s yesterday.  Nebraska on the other hand is in draught and its sizzlin’ hot in the 100s.        Frank Reid Before you buy.

Response:

 in fact, there is a little town about 20 miles northwest of here by the name of "eden".

When I lived in Kansas I used to fish by a little town named ‘Climax’ not far from ‘Eureka’. — Charlie…

Response:

 in fact, there is a little town about 20 miles northwest of here by the name of "eden". When I lived in Kansas I used to fish by a little town named ‘Climax’ not far from ‘Eureka’. — Charlie…

        "climax" is about 15 miles southeast.  in the nether regions, one might say. wayno

Response:

 in fact, there is a little town about 20 miles northwest of here by the name of "eden". When I lived in Kansas I used to fish by a little town named ‘Climax’ not far from ‘Eureka’. — Charlie…

Not far from Friends University, I take it? <G R

Response:

When I lived in Kansas I used to fish by a little town named ‘Climax’ not far from ‘Eureka’. — Charlie…

  When I lived in Nebraska and owned a 90 hp Super Cub, my flying buddy and I talked about establishing a record for the quickest time in a Super Cub on a flight from Colon, Nebraska to Athol, Kansas:) Bob Skinner   Buffalo, WY — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Ya’ll keep your pre-verted towns away from the home of my dear, sainted mother.  She lives in Virgin, UT.  As a matter of fact, I was jus’ thinkin’.  There’s this lady, lives down the street, name’s Mary.  Then again, she CAN’T be that Mary, ’cause she moved up from Las Vegas.    Virgin is the only place in the world with an actual Virgin Recycling Center.                       Frank Reid Before you buy.

Response:

The trout in Northern California are plentiful and in great condition after four years of good rain and snowfall.  River runoff has reduced to the point where dry fly fishing is good and will remain that way for the rest of the year.  This is the year for those 100 trout days. Ernie

Response:

Not far from Friends University, I take it?

About 75mi (or so) east of Friends University of Central Kansas<g. (not the officially sanction name of the school). — Charlie…

Response:

   "climax" is about 15 miles southeast.  in the nether regions, one might say.

Ah, you’ve been there<g. — Charlie…

Response:

What is happening out your way?

Its looking like drought in CO.  Streams not controlled by dam releases are running quite low and warm, at least on the eastern slope.  Hopefully at least some of the fish will survive.

Response:

Up here in the Lakes District it has been raining off and on all summer. The last 5 days or so it’s been sunny. I haven’t been to any rivers in a couple of weeks just fishing the lake so I can’t say how they are. One plus though if the water is high it usually brings record runs for the fall.             Ian – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi All, We went to BC last week and the water was high because they have had a lot of  unusual rain the past month or so. I had a customer by that lives in Great Falls, MT and he said they were in a draught? What is happening out your way? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

Response:

What is happening out your way?

I have only been able to fly fish our local river on two occasions in the last three months becasue it’s so muddy.  We watered the lawn only once this entire summer.  Not flood per se, but steady precipitation. Mu

Response:

What is happening out your way? I have only been able to fly fish our local river on two occasions in the last three months becasue it’s so muddy.  We watered the lawn only once this entire summer.  Not flood per se, but steady precipitation. Mu

Today, will be (provided we don’t get rain) the  144th consecutive day without measurable precipitation in Las Vegas – Going for the record of 150 set in 1950!  So I guess you could say that we are having a drought.  BUT!  20 minutes after it starts raining, we will be in a flood.  I normally fish in Utah – about 3 hours north of here.  Creeks and ponds in that area are near or at record lows.  Fire danger is rated at Extreme+.  

Response:

What is happening out your way? In The Southern Tier of Vermont,  We had three months of nearly

continuous rains.  The rivers and streams were quite high and not very fishable.  This has settled quite a bit in the past month and the fishing is the best that it has been in my experiance. There has been a fairly steady Sulfur hatch and #10 & #12 sulfers are highly reliable and productive. The Trout are very numerous, well distributed, and in excellent health.   They are deep, broad, and remarkably brightly colored.  They are also guite long winded, makeing for some outstandingly long fights.  Some of the jumps are spectacular. The health of the fisheries is probably due to higher than average streamflows. In fact, fishermen should be extra aware of the weather. Because of the high water table, flash flooding can be an important consideration.  You want to be sure that you leave yourself a ready escape if you are fishing in the rain. If it has rained, the rivers and streams will be high for a couple of days.  The best times to fish are when the water has cleared and receded some.  Evening is the best time, with the last hour of light being the peak time.   So, just choose a water and hang on!                                     Mike Don’t forget to let them go.

Response:

Question:

Lets hope he doesn’t also "teach" her how to wade.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s exciting Dave – I hope you can guide my girlfriend into a couple of those fish in September!  Looking forward to it…. Regards, Jeff

Response:

Yeah that’s a good point , she truly does not like swimming. Lets hope he doesn’t also "teach" her how to wade. That’s exciting Dave – I hope you can guide my girlfriend into a couple of those fish in September!  Looking forward to it…. Regards, Jeff

Regards, Jeff

Response:

He has to save you some fish. The rapid is no-kill on brook trout. Why do you think there are such big fish. Also at the time we’ll be there it’s no-kill on salmon also. Paul

i guess that means t-bone ain’t coming. waldo

Response:

He has to save you some fish. The rapid is no-kill on brook trout. Why do you think there are such big fish. Also at the time we’ll be there it’s no-kill on salmon also. Paul

What a great report Dave. Good luck in Labrador, you lucky son-of-a-gun. I can’t wait to join ya up there in Sept…. save us some fish! Walt

[snip]

Response:

Great report. I’d love to get into some big brookies like that but Maine is SO far.

That is what’s so great about Maine! — — MrG/American Sportsman http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjun00.html  LATEST BAMBOO FACTS "the saga continues"

Response:

Willi Loehman writes: Do you see this over population and stunting in your smaller waters?  

Yes.  But the Rapid is a large stream with very swift water.  It’s elevation drop is very steep, and because it is a tailwater, it is cold.  It has plenty of food, so the brookies thrive in its waters.  Five years ago you rarely saw a fish bigger than 15 inches, but since C and R has been  enforced, 3 pounders are common.   On the smaller streams in NH, VT and ME, you will see native brookies that are stunted for the reasons you state.  Pond brookies tend to be a little bigger than the small stream brookies.  I fished ponds in the Allagash Wilderness Area of Maine last year and caught many 15 – 18 inch fish.  An interesting aside:  I am used to the trout coming up directly under the fly for the "take".  The pond brookies that I fished for  came out of the water and took the fly on the way down.  Screws up your timing, that’s for sure!  <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

 For bigger brookies try fishing near the large boulder that is on the south side of Echo lake on Mt Evans.12-15 inch is not uncommon. —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report. I’d love to get into some big brookies like that but Maine is SO far. I assume the river you’re describing is a large one?  In the Rockies, for the most part, Brookies are confined to the smaller headwater streams.  Except for those streams that have beaver ponds on them, these stream Brookies are very small. Many of the streams and some of the ponds and lakes, tend to be over populated. The result is that the fish are stunted. Often 5 and 6 inch large headed fish are sexually mature and may be the largest that the stream produces. This is PARTLY due to the size and fertility of the streams. However, comparable streams with Browns, Rainbows or Cutts tend to have larger fish. Do you see this over population and stunting in your smaller waters? Willi

Response:

Great report. I’d love to get into some big brookies like that but Maine is SO far. I assume the river you’re describing is a large one?  In the Rockies, for the most part, Brookies are confined to the smaller headwater streams.  Except for those streams that have beaver ponds on them, these stream Brookies are very small. Many of the streams and some of the ponds and lakes, tend to be over populated. The result is that the fish are stunted. Often 5 and 6 inch large headed fish are sexually mature and may be the largest that the stream produces. This is PARTLY due to the size and fertility of the streams. However, comparable streams with Browns, Rainbows or Cutts tend to have larger fish. Do you see this over population and stunting in your smaller waters?   Willi

Response:

when the revolution comes, when all us peons will extract our revenge.  

You can have all the revenge you want; meanwhile I’ll be collecting their stuff<g. — Charlie…

Response:

What a great report Dave. Good luck in Labrador, you lucky son-of-a-gun. I can’t wait to join ya up there in Sept…. save us some fish! Walt

You took the words right off my screen.  The old bugger will have ‘em all before we get there. Peter good luck in Labrador

Response:

That’s exciting Dave – I hope you can guide my girlfriend into a couple of those fish in September!  Looking forward to it…. Regards, Jeff

Response:

Monday, June 20. Jeff, Brian and I arrived at Lakewood and had a wonderful lunch

        great report, laplac!         your indulgence in the paradise that you described, together with the wretched excess of the labrador trip, *plus* having that angel to come home to has placed you soundly at the side of stephen barnes when the revolution comes, when all us peons will extract our revenge.  if i were you, i’d practice my blindfolded cigarette smoking technique.         wayno, long time student of madame defarge

Response:

Monday, June 20. Jeff, Brian and I arrived at Lakewood and had a wonderful lunch before "suiting up" and heading to the river. Jeff was using an Orvis Rocky Mountain 6 weight, and Brian a Courtland 8 1/2 ft. 5 weight. I settled for my 4 weight Sage 9 footer. Instead of going down river, we settled on the dam and immediately were into some nice salmon (15+ inches). Neither Jeff nor Brian have a landing net, so they learned a trick or two on safely releasing big fish. Christmas is coming….. Tuesday morning we headed down-river and had the place to ourselves. Two locals  walked in about 9, but fished downstream from us. Both boys caught and landed 18 and 19 inch brookies on a size 20 bubble emerger. I stood by and took the fish off the hook and safely released them. What marvelous examples of brook trout! We fished the wing dam and first and second current all day and never caught a big salmon. Most were in the 10 – 12 inch range. Wednesday we again went down-river, and again, both boys got into some big trout using the same emerger. We discovered a new "holding area" for the brookies, fished it steadily for a couple of hours, but without success. These fish were difficult to catch. I watched a "regular" to the river, a terrific fly fisherman  who lives nearby and walks in a couple of days a week. He tried every trick and  fly he knew, but failed in getting even a small one to take his lure. We finished the day by going to the dam after lunch. I landed a 22 inch salmon  that broke the water 8 times — a guest at the camp counted, I didn’t. It was a terrific afternoon with all three of us landing several salmon in the 16+ range. Thursday morning, back to the wing dam and the large brookies. I took a 20 incher and Brian an 18 incher. Jeff wasn’t feeling well and spent the morning in bed. He did, however, go to the dam with us after lunch. I found my way out to my favorite "perch" and took about 20 salmon from 12 – 20 inches, all on a cream colored caddis worm, size  16 and 18 fished slow and deep. About 5 o’clock, I went after brookies that I knew were holed-up in the white bubbly water at the bottom of one of the dam shutes. The boys had heavily fished this spot on previous days, but were unsuccessful in raising any of the behemouths that live in the bubbles. It would have been easier if I had a ten foot rod, because I really couldn’t reach the current and bubbled water with my 9 footer. I wasn’t casting — dabbing would be a more accurate description. To get closer, I got in the water — mistake #1!  I had a senior moment when I slipped and went head first into a pool about 6 feet deep. Well, now that I was completely soaked, there was no sense in "taking it easy". I managed to get upon the rock I wanted, and on my second "dab" a giant, monster of a brookie took the emerger. He took two laps of the small pool and headed into the fast water. And I imagine he is still there, laughing at me. I fished for another 20  minutes before I attempted to leave. Not thinking, I had my second senior moment of the day, and went into the same pool backwards. Does Orvis sell water-wings? Friday was slow, both down-river and at the dam. Very few fish were being taken.  All three of us did manage to get our brookies on the wing-dam, but they were small ones – about 14 inches. We went to what I have named the "V" current, and stood within five feet of the largest brookie I have ever seen in these waters. It was at least 24 inches long. And it was feeding — the boys watched it for several minutes as it moved a couple of inches one way and then the other to pick up morsels of  food floating down stream. I was using the cream colored caddis in a size 18, hoping that small was what he wanted. I set the hook on a take, and saw that it was a six inch chub. I didn’t bother to put it on the reel — I wanted him off as quickly as possible, so I stripped in the few feet of line, only to have it ripped from my hand. Jeff yelled that the big brookie had taken my chub. He could see the head of the chub sticking out of the trout’s mouth. Off he went, ripping off line like there wasn’t any drag. The "fight" lasted about 30 seconds before he let go.  I landed the small chub and it had teeth marks on both sides right behind its gills. There was some blood. The same thing happened to Brian within an hour — he wanted to "fish" with the fish. An ethics conversation followed. I have always fished this river using 75% dries and 25% nymphs.  However, this week it was almost exclusively nymphs.  I think I caught two salmon on traditional dry fly patterns.  Although there were several hatches during the week, the fish were not actively rising to them.  I watched several emerging caddis struggling to get airborne, safely drifting over water that I knew contained both trout and salmon.  Friends in camp, traditionally dry fly fishermen, were at a loss as to what to do.  I convinced a couple to try nymphing and gave them a couple of successful patterns.  Voila!  They caught fish.   Emergers and nymphs — the only way to travel!  Don’t leave home without them. It was a great week of fishing — not because I caught some wonderful fish on flies that I tied ,but because I saw my grandsons have such a memorable time catching big brookies and salmon, nymphing like their grandpa showed them. It doesn’t get much better than that. Jeff and I fly out of Logan next Thursday for 8 days in Labrador.  And it is all dry fly fishing, including a mouse pattern for *really* big brookies.  <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

What a great report Dave. Good luck in Labrador, you lucky son-of-a-gun. I can’t wait to join ya up there in Sept…. save us some fish! Walt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Monday, June 20. Jeff, Brian and I arrived at Lakewood and had a wonderful lunch before "suiting up" and heading to the river. Jeff was using an Orvis Rocky Mountain 6 weight, and Brian a Courtland 8 1/2 ft. 5 weight. I settled for my 4 weight Sage 9 footer. Instead of going down river, we settled on the dam and immediately were into some nice salmon (15+ inches). Neither Jeff nor Brian have a landing net, so they learned a trick or two on safely releasing big fish. Christmas is coming….. Tuesday morning we headed down-river and had the place to ourselves. Two locals  walked in about 9, but fished downstream from us. Both boys caught and landed 18 and 19 inch brookies on a size 20 bubble emerger. I stood by and took the fish off the hook and safely released them. What marvelous examples of brook trout! We fished the wing dam and first and second current all day and never caught a big salmon. Most were in the 10 – 12 inch range. Wednesday we again went down-river, and again, both boys got into some big trout using the same emerger. We discovered a new "holding area" for the brookies, fished it steadily for a couple of hours, but without success. These fish were difficult to catch. I watched a "regular" to the river, a terrific fly fisherman  who lives nearby and walks in a couple of days a week. He tried every trick and  fly he knew, but failed in getting even a small one to take his lure. We finished the day by going to the dam after lunch. I landed a 22 inch salmon  that broke the water 8 times — a guest at the camp counted, I didn’t. It was a terrific afternoon with all three of us landing several salmon in the 16+ range. Thursday morning, back to the wing dam and the large brookies. I took a 20 incher and Brian an 18 incher. Jeff wasn’t feeling well and spent the morning in bed. He did, however, go to the dam with us after lunch. I found my way out to my favorite "perch" and took about 20 salmon from 12 – 20 inches, all on a cream colored caddis worm, size  16 and 18 fished slow and deep. About 5 o’clock, I went after brookies that I knew were holed-up in the white bubbly water at the bottom of one of the dam shutes. The boys had heavily fished this spot on previous days, but were unsuccessful in raising any of the behemouths that live in the bubbles. It would have been easier if I had a ten foot rod, because I really couldn’t reach the current and bubbled water with my 9 footer. I wasn’t casting — dabbing would be a more accurate description. To get closer, I got in the water — mistake #1!  I had a senior moment when I slipped and went head first into a pool about 6 feet deep. Well, now that I was completely soaked, there was no sense in "taking it easy". I managed to get upon the rock I wanted, and on my second "dab" a giant, monster of a brookie took the emerger. He took two laps of the small pool and headed into the fast water. And I imagine he is still there, laughing at me. I fished for another 20  minutes before I attempted to leave. Not thinking, I had my second senior moment of the day, and went into the same pool backwards. Does Orvis sell water-wings? Friday was slow, both down-river and at the dam. Very few fish were being taken.  All three of us did manage to get our brookies on the wing-dam, but they were small ones – about 14 inches. We went to what I have named the "V" current, and stood within five feet of the largest brookie I have ever seen in these waters. It was at least 24 inches long. And it was feeding — the boys watched it for several minutes as it moved a couple of inches one way and then the other to pick up morsels of  food floating down stream. I was using the cream colored caddis in a size 18, hoping that small was what he wanted. I set the hook on a take, and saw that it was a six inch chub. I didn’t bother to put it on the reel — I wanted him off as quickly as possible, so I stripped in the few feet of line, only to have it ripped from my hand. Jeff yelled that the big brookie had taken my chub. He could see the head of the chub sticking out of the trout’s mouth. Off he went, ripping off line like there wasn’t any drag. The "fight" lasted about 30 seconds before he let go.  I landed the small chub and it had teeth marks on both sides right behind its gills. There was some blood. The same thing happened to Brian within an hour — he wanted to "fish" with the fish. An ethics conversation followed. I have always fished this river using 75% dries and 25% nymphs.  However, this week it was almost exclusively nymphs.  I think I caught two salmon on traditional dry fly patterns.  Although there were several hatches during the week, the fish were not actively rising to them.  I watched several emerging caddis struggling to get airborne, safely drifting over water that I knew contained both trout and salmon.  Friends in camp, traditionally dry fly fishermen, were at a loss as to what to do.  I convinced a couple to try nymphing and gave them a couple of successful patterns.  Voila!  They caught fish.   Emergers and nymphs — the only way to travel!  Don’t leave home without them. It was a great week of fishing — not because I caught some wonderful fish on flies that I tied ,but because I saw my grandsons have such a memorable time catching big brookies and salmon, nymphing like their grandpa showed them. It doesn’t get much better than that. Jeff and I fly out of Logan next Thursday for 8 days in Labrador.  And it is all dry fly fishing, including a mouse pattern for *really* big brookies.  <g Dave LaCourse

– Walter G. Winter Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-2.html

Response:

Question:

Now, I’ve sat and listened to Indian Joe wind up and let fly with some tales that had everyone in the room exchanging "knowing glances" in between belly-laughs – but this one seems over the top, even for IJ ;^)

Yep, he always gets Chill Wills and Slim Pickens mixed up… — Charlie…

Response:

______  Commercial Budweiser is for sissy’’s.  Western boys brew their own! Right T-bone? ; )  Make some of that RATTLESNAKE RED!  Yummmmmmmmmmmy!!!!

Yup…but when the brewery is shut down for construction…ya gotta just make do. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

Response:

You’ve hit on the reason why hazing will never die:  The only way to assuage the pang of indignity is to pass it on.  And so it goes…

Oh, I don’t know. I think there’s a lot more to it than passing down indignities. Team building, male bonding etc. etc. Not that I’m in favor of hazing but I’ve endured some, I’ve inflicted some and I’m no worse for the we&*6YHOU&UK arghhh, kill, kill, sue, sue, CANCEL THE WHOLE DAMN HOCKEY SEASON. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

______  Commercial Budweiser is for sissy’’s.  Western boys brew their own! Right T-bone? ; )  Make some of that RATTLESNAKE RED!  Yummmmmmmmmmmy!!!! Mr. G.

Response:

Now listen here bud,   awwwww, forget it. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

Ken Fortenberry wrote We had a six-holer at scout camp with a cellar door on the back for "honey-truck" access. Part of the initiation ritual for first year staff included a very large rock dropped into the muck from the cellar door while the rookies occupied the outhouse. Kinda funny actually, from your second year on.

You’ve hit on the reason why hazing will never die:  The only way to assuage the pang of indignity is to pass it on.  And so it goes… —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

two-story outhouse. How would that work? —

The story I got was that the outhouse had been built for a hotel that was built during the 1880’s and the hotel was above the timberline. The snow got so deep that the hotel and all other buildings had have doors  that worked when the snow was so high that doors on the first floor could not be opened…you just couldnot wait till the snow melts, so… Big Dale

Response:

daytripper wrote Now, I’ve sat and listened to Indian Joe wind up and let fly with some tales that had everyone in the room exchanging "knowing glances" in between belly-laughs – but this one seems over the top, even for IJ ;^)

The man is no fool.  Over the top is exactly where you want to be while using the establishment in question!  (Especially if ET2 is standing outside throwing rocks into the muck)

Response:

TBone wrote [deleted] To hell with the beer. To hell with beer ? 30 DAYS IN THE HOLE ! NEXT !

Sorry.  Misspoke.  Meant to say, "To hell with the Bud" Can I be excused now? —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

To hell with the beer.  I’m still trying to visualize a two-story outhouse. How would that work? Pretty shitty for the 1st floor tenant, I’d imagine… — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

______  Great!  If David LaCourse was on the first floor. Dang!  Did I say that?  Sorry David, even you don’t deserve that. — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/  Updates http://www.gink.com/chat Flyfishing Conversations 6:00 PM PST till after midnight.

Response:

Awww shit, now you’ve done it, you mentioned beer in a Western ‘Clave thread. I can hear the thread cop sirens in the distance …

Remove your hands from the keyboard, and leave them where I can see ‘em… Let me be sure that I’m understanding correctly: We have a nasty C&R thread that’s forked, we have a couple of g*nk threads, and people are complaining about beer postings in a Clave thread? I’m sure that there’s logic behind such matters. I’m also sure that I’m not following it. "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

Response:

I had to do a search and see if I could find a photo of this two-story outhouse on the Internet.  I remember watching a program about a two- story outhouse on t.v.   Additionally, thought I could remember seeing a photo on the Internet of a two-story outhouse.  So, I had to refined the photo.  Here are the photos of two-story outhouses that I’ve found. http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/5047/outhouse.html http://w3.trib.com/~leebo/gem.htm http://www.mich.com/~jloose/ohorania.htm — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

Response:

Here are some more photos. http://www2.macomb.k12.mi.us/mich/m2-site/fayette/fayette004/gif/035.GIF http://www2.macomb.k12.mi.us/mich/m2-site/fayette/fayette005/gif/038.GIF http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/wanderers/Brokenislands/outhouse.htm — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

Response:

To hell with the [budweiser].  I’m still trying to visualize a two- story outhouse.  How would that work?

When you see a two story outhouse, you’re in an area that gets lots of snow. the bottom level is snowed in for much of the winter. Encampment, Wyoming has one of these, too. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

Response:

When you see a two story outhouse, you’re in an area that gets lots of snow. the bottom level is snowed in for much of the winter.

This is not always the case.  The web sites that I found talk about the two story outhouse being next to a hotel.  The top part was for those people that had a hotel room on the second floor.  A small bridge was built to the outhouse so they would not need to walk down at night. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

Response:

To hell with the beer.  I’m still trying to visualize a two-story outhouse. How would that work? It wouldn’t, and that’s the joke.

We had a six-holer at scout camp with a cellar door on the back for "honey-truck" access. Part of the initiation ritual for first year staff included a very large rock dropped into the muck from the cellar door while the rookies occupied the outhouse. Kinda funny actually, from your second year on. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Been in that very house. We had eaten a bunch of green chjili in Chayanne at the radeo the night before and were dam glad to drive up upon it. Luckly it is a four holer and the seats do not6 line up.   chill Wills my traveling mate and I went upstairs and we sent the greek belly dancer downstairs. Boys it was bad. Indian Joe    Wilmington N.C.

Now, I’ve sat and listened to Indian Joe wind up and let fly with some tales that had everyone in the room exchanging "knowing glances" in between belly-laughs – but this one seems over the top, even for IJ ;^)

Response:

1/10/00 Ruling 611/b In the Matter:   First use of Word "beer" in Western Clave Thread Ruling: Dismissal of Query. Reason: Mere use of the word "beer" does not constitute an offense, unless the word(s) "Budwiser," or "Bud," or any similar, are used in the same post as the word "beer." Issued by Order of , , , Thread Police Summary Justice Authority "To Serve and Protect" Have a nice day – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Awww shit, now you’ve done it, you mentioned beer in a Western ‘Clave thread. I can hear the thread cop sirens in the distance … — Ken Fortenberry- you have the right to remain on topic,                 anything you say can be used against you …

Response:

Ken Fortenberry wrote Back in the early 80’s on one of my trips from the summer hell of Texas in August, one of my friends and I pulled our motorcycles up in a little town that I think is a little west of Ennis and decided to drink a beer … Awww shit, now you’ve done it, you mentioned beer in a Western ‘Clave thread.

To hell with the beer.  I’m still trying to visualize a two-story outhouse.  How would that work? —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

To hell with the beer.  I’m still trying to visualize a two-story outhouse. How would that work?

Pretty shitty for the 1st floor tenant, I’d imagine… — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

Response:

Been in that very house. We had eaten a bunch of green chjili in Chayanne at the radeo the night before and were dam glad to drive up upon it. Luckly it is a four holer and the seats do not6 line up.   chill Wills my traveling mate and I went upstairs and we sent the greek belly dancer downstairs. Boys it was bad.  Indian Joe    Wilmington N.C.

Response:

To hell with the beer.  I’m still trying to visualize a two-story outhouse. How would that work?

It wouldn’t, and that’s the joke.

Response:

[deleted] To hell with the beer.

To hell with beer ? 30 DAYS IN THE HOLE ! NEXT ! — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

Response:

Back in the early 80’s on one of my trips from the summer hell of Texas in August, one of my friends and I pulled our motorcycles up in a little town that I think is a little west of Ennis and decided to drink a beer and check out the sights. I took a picture which accidentaly turned out very good. This is unusual for me, but when I show off this picture of a two story outhouse, most turn it over to see where the postcard is from. It seems like they had torn down some old buildings from all over the state and reassembled them in this little town I guess as sort of a tourist thing. At any rate I can’t remember the name of the town. It could have been Virginia City or it could be some other little town in the area. Does anyone know which town I am talking about? Most folks remember it if they have ever seen a two story outhouse. It is not a bad place to burn up some film. At any rate I would encourage all to bring a camera and to remember to take pictures of things other than fish. Big Dale

Response:

Back in the early 80’s on one of my trips from the summer hell of Texas in August, one of my friends and I pulled our motorcycles up in a little town that I think is a little west of Ennis and decided to drink a beer …

Awww shit, now you’ve done it, you mentioned beer in a Western ‘Clave thread. I can hear the thread cop sirens in the distance … — Ken Fortenberry- you have the right to remain on topic,                  anything you say can be used against you …

Response:

Question:

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 03:27:25 GMT, jl…@knox.mindspring.com wrote: ~…@bi.org (Lucas Aarons) wrote:

~ Can I dig my foot out of my mouth now…..? I aplogize profusely…. I have been having a REALLY bad day and I VERY inappropriately took it out on you……. I will try to be less of an asshole next time. Please accept as my apology a more appropriate response: ~can someone tell me what the child support percentage is in SC for 3 ~children?  also, is there any restriction on visitation (such as ~children cannot stay overnight with a parent if they are living with ~someone they are not married to)?  if  the divorce order is in one ~state and the parent moves to another does the original order stay in ~effect or can the parent get the it changed to the new state? I do not know the percentages in SC. It doubt VERY highly if there are any restrictions on visitation other than those outlined in any decree. Divorce decrees can not be moved as far as I know…. ~ ~please respond by e-mail as i haven’t been able to pick up these ~groups on a regular basis.   I am sending this to you in Email and also publicly apologizing to you in the newsgroup. I would like to ask that it be chalked up to a shitty day and let it slide. I will endeavor to never let my fingers hit the keyboard in here until my brain is in gear and my attitude is supportive no matter the question. Please, once again, accept my humble apologies. You were the victim of severe spillover. I’M SORRY! Lucas -DCS———————————————————– Any unsolicited COMMERCIAL Email, (SPAM), sent to any of my addresses will be charged $85 per hour, with a TWO hour minimum, for reading, replying, and time it takes to format messages to all of the uplinks to have the offenders internet service terminated. Sending of said unsolicited COMMERCIAL Email constitutes acceptance of these terms. —————————————————————

Response:

>can someone tell me what the child support percentage is in SC for 3 children?  

Sorry, I don’t know about that. In my state, it’s a formula combined with whatever expenses the custodial parent dreams up, which are never questioned.   >> also, is there any restriction on visitation (such as children cannot stay overnight with a parent if they are living with someone they are not married to)?<<

I truly can’t fathom this.  I would think that this would be something that has to be put in the decree at the request of a parent at the time of the final hearing, but this is my guess.  My husband and I lived with each other before getting married and his ex-wife is living with someone.  It’s probably the only thing we haven’t tried to hang each other over! >> if  the divorce order is in one state and the parent moves to another does the original order stay in effect or can the parent get the it changed to the new state?<<

It hinges on which state the children are residents of in Colorado.  If we had custody and moved out of state, we could petition the courts to change the case to the new district we were in after we had established residency there.  However, if we move without the children (non-custodial), then the court with jurisdiction remains the same.   There is a group on the net called alt.support.child-support (I think that’s close).  Although they spend alot of time just griping, they can be of some help on occasion.  I’d post your question to them.   One other thing, my husband and I had to go back to court when Cheri (Jeff’s ex) was thinking about moving out of state with his kids.  Bottom line:  if it isn’t prohibited in the orginal orders (or subsequent orders), we can’t stop her.  We finally negotiated a truce which forbids her from taking them out permanently, but it wasn’t easy or cheap.   >please respond by e-mail as i haven’t been able to pick up these groups on a regular basis.  >

I’ll post and email. Good luck, Lynn

Response:

d…@bi.org (Lucas Aarons) wrote:

—>Can I dig my foot out of my mouth now…..? —>I aplogize profusely…. I have been having a REALLY bad day and I VERY —>inappropriately took it out on you……. —>I will try to be less of an asshole next time. —>Please accept as my apology a more appropriate response: thanks lucas.  apology accepted.  :)

Response:

I missed the original post (as sometimes happens with my list, too) because for some reason my reader ALSO refuses to let me in for several days at a time.  Believe me, I try to read at least once a day.  You can tell by how verbose I am. Anyway, you are welcome here.  The response you got was not typical. Lucas, what got up your butt?  I know you’re opinionated, but you usually aren’t nasty! Best wishes.  Hope you get over that bug, Lucas. Pam For the info of all newsgroup readers, a good site with discussion groups (including one for steps) as well as a legal database of state by state info is at: <http://www.divorcenet.com> (add /board6.html for the step discussions)

Response:

can someone tell me what the child support percentage is in SC for 3 children?  also, is there any restriction on visitation (such as children cannot stay overnight with a parent if they are living with someone they are not married to)?  if  the divorce order is in one state and the parent moves to another does the original order stay in effect or can the parent get the it changed to the new state? please respond by e-mail as i haven’t been able to pick up these groups on a regular basis.   thanks! jl…@mindspring.com

Response:

On Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:01:14 GMT, jl…@knox.mindspring.com wrote:

~can someone tell me what the child support percentage is in SC for 3 ~children?  also, is there any restriction on visitation (such as ~children cannot stay overnight with a parent if they are living with ~someone they are not married to)?  if  the divorce order is in one ~state and the parent moves to another does the original order stay in ~effect or can the parent get the it changed to the new state? First, we are not lawyers…. It sounds alot like you are fishing for a way to slap an ex…. Second, since you deserve the advice you get, here goes: (two face mask on) for 3 children the percentage is 50% of your income for the life of the children. This means that the amount you have earned since they were born, you divide into a monthly income and 50% of that is child-support…. As for restrictions on visitation: it depends on whether the other party is also living with someone. The children automatically become wards of the person who has another adult in the house with them. Especially if the other person is of the same sex. If your ex now has a live-in lover, you will need to either find a lover of your own sex, or hand over the children immediately. If it is you that now has the lover, demand immediate custody. Oh, of course, the divorce decree can be moved to any jurisdiction you wish. Even if you do not live there. We had our decree moved to mexico, because we found a judge who could be bribed to increase the bastards child support from a measly $105 per month to $1050 per month. I would strongly suggest moving to Japan if you are the non custodial parent. They dont believe in child support. ~please respond by e-mail as i haven’t been able to pick up these ~groups on a regular basis.   If you are unable to pick up this newsgroup on a regular basis, it is because you are too busy to bother. This is an alt.support group, not an alt.free.legal.advice group. ~thanks! You are NOT welcome…. ~jl…@mindspring.com If you want some support as a step-parent, drop in and see us sometime. Ask your lawyer for the legal advice. ~ -DCS———————————————————– Any unsolicited COMMERCIAL Email, (SPAM), sent to any of my addresses will be charged $85 per hour, with a TWO hour minimum, for reading, replying, and time it takes to format messages to all of the uplinks to have the offenders internet service terminated. Sending of said unsolicited COMMERCIAL Email constitutes acceptance of these terms. —————————————————————

Response:

d…@bi.org (Lucas Aarons) wrote:

—>First, we are not lawyers…. It sounds alot like you are fishing for a way —>to slap an ex…. i never said anyone here was.   but i figured that step-parents might have some insight into cs and visitation.   —>Second, since you deserve the advice you get, here goes: (two face mask on) and i never asked for legal advice.  i asked for information.  i never take anything  i read in any newsgroups as carved in stone fact. and it’s obvious from the "advice" you offered you don’t have the information. —>If you are unable to pick up this newsgroup on a regular basis, it is —>because you are too busy to bother. This is an alt.support group, not an —>alt.free.legal.advice group. no…  it is because i seem to have a problem with my reader when it tries to pull in groups that have large message bases.  so i don’t always get all messages.  so e-mail seems to work a bit better when i am asking for information. and again, i did NOT ask for advice. —>~thanks! —>You are NOT welcome…. what is your problem?  i asked for simple information  and i get treated rudely.  is that the way you treat everyone here?  or is it strictly reserved for newcomers???   —>If you want some support as a step-parent, drop in and see us sometime. i will be becoming a step-parent soon.  but if you are any indication of the type of step-parent that is a frequenter of this news group i am GLAD that i have problems pulling the group! —>Ask your lawyer for the legal advice. exactly what we do! my apoligies to anyone out there i annoyed with my simple request.  i never dreamed that it would receive this type of reception.

Response:

d…@bi.org (Lucas Aarons) wrote:

—>First, we are not lawyers…. It sounds alot like you are fishing for a way —>to slap an ex…. I don’t know about the rest of you.  YOU are not only apparently not a lawyer, you are not deserving of participation in a group that includes the word support.  What kind of an idiot responds to a simple request for information as if it were a personal insult?  Or do you have nothing better to do than shoot off your mouth? As it happens, this woman you have taken upon yourself to police is about to become a step-parent.  Her step-children are about to be taken by my ex-wife to South Carolina.  She is asking for information that anyone in South Carolina could easily look up in a public library. Most any idiot could recognize the difference between this and legal advice, but you appear to not be just any idiot.  You must be an especially depraved idiot, too sucked up in some kind of bitterness to notice. We could look up the information ourselves, except that we’re not IN South Carolina.  One would think that a newsgroup with a name like alt.support.step-parents would be a place to get support from other step-parents. I think a reasonable person would assume that.  Oh, but I forget, you don’t act like a reasonable person, you act like a self-evidenced depraved idiot. I suppose YOU would not wonder how your own situation might change as a result of the decisions that other people make.  You would just pony up whatever demands were placed on you.  Or else you would fly across the country and look up the information yourself.  But then, you seem to be an idiot, so I wouldn’t be surprised.  Only an idiot would attempt to read an entire set of motivations out of one posting of less than 15 lines.  Or perhaps you are psychic!  Let’s see, from your post…. —>If you are unable to pick up this newsgroup on a regular basis, it is —>because you are too busy to bother. ….you are able to tell the reason she doesn’t get the newsgroup regularly.  How amazing!  Except, you blithering idiot, that her ISP tends to time out before she can download all the postings, and so she tends to lose a lot of them. And this one takes a little more reading between the lines, but there seems to be a pattern: —>They dont believe in child support. So, Mr. or Ms. or Mx. Psychic, you probably are assuming that this is someone trying to get out of paying child support.  Couldn’t POSSIBLY be, could it, that this is someone who is trying to help BUDGET for something that she is not forced into?  No, that would be too human, something that a depraved idiot is in no position to understand. It is assholes like you who give the Internet a bad name.  If the newsgroup is for support, then be supportive or go somewhere that welcomes people who have nothing better to do with their feeble lives than flame. My thanks to you who actually provided support. You would seem more representative of this group than this one waste of space on the planet. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could actually support each other? And I apologize for taking up bandwidth.  A public slander deserves a public reply, however.

Response:

Question:

Going Boning June 25 in Mexico….anyone been who’s got a good story or advice? Flies, clothing, fish etc? Looks to be a great trip. Agator

Response:

Was there in March and had a great trip. Flies for bonefish- The Gotcha or Crazy Charlie in light tan with no flash. Permit- the raghead crab in light tan or an epoxi crab in light tan, almost white. Clothing light cotton long sleeve shirts. I used a pair of hospital scrub pants for leg protection with Simms gravel guards and flats wading shoes. Your in for a treat. Good luck. Jack

Response:

Going Boning June 25 in Mexico….anyone been who’s got a good story or advice? Flies, clothing, fish etc? Looks to be a great trip. Agator

Casa Blanca is one of the best flats destinations I have been to.  The lodge, food, service, boats, guides and location are all first class.  You will catch many bones, some tarpon, possibly snook, barracuda and permit. You can use a 7 to 8 weight outfit for bones.  I would use a 9 to 10 weight for tarpon, barracudas and permit.  We like Mastery Bonesfish/Tarpon floating lines for fishing out of a boat in warm climates. We used #6 tan to brown Charlies and Snapping Shrimp for bones.  #2/4 Tan crabs for permit ( Rag Head, Turneffe and McCrab ).  Needle fish flies with wire for barracudas. Tarpon liked 2/0 Seahabits, red/white  and red/yellow Seaducers and  Stu Apte style tarpon flies in orange/grizzly, orange/yellow or Cockroach.  Snook seem to like red/yellow or cockroach colors. I would recommend doing some casting in the wind before you go to get in shape. If you are well equipped with tackle and clothing the guides will really take care of the rest. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Response:

Question:

As for me, a month ago I was fishing, with a Lazer line, that turned out to be a piece of junk.  The store that sold it to me (Kingsway Sports in Guelph) special ordered it in for me so I can’t ask them to take it back. It would be a good line, (it’s a WF5F) if it FLOATED!.  Unfortunately, it gives a great imitation of a sink tip.  I would really appreciate the name of the contact person at Courtland so that I can tell him how much I REALLY like their crappy products.   James P. Ward Twin Willow Farm Paisley, Ont.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just bought a new 5 wt. DT floating Lazerline (lime), so I’m kind of interested in this thread. I’m heading over to Europe and don’t want my line to let me down. What kind of line dressing have you guys been using or not using on your lines? The little pad that Cortland ships with the line? Something else? What type of soap are you using if you clean it with soap. I wonder if some it’s some brands of line dressing or bug repellants that you’re using thats doing the line in? Does everyone, that has had problems, have some other products in common? Ones that could eat a line! Maybe we should list the stuff that comes in contact with our lines? And how offen you clean it. Might get to the bottom of this yet. So to get started, I’m using the Cortland pads and have Cortland "XL" line dressing. Use Repel 100 bug spray. A couple of different brands fly floatant also. Don Burns

I use the Cortland pads with "Flot-Cote" and I never use bug spray on my hands. I also use a lot of Cortland products and I do not wish to bash this company at all. Sometimes things just don’t work out in the manufacturing process. After all, I am trying like hell to give those fish a real fighting chance (actually, they are doing better than expected) and Cortland has been there with me every cast along the way. Thank you all for responding. If they are willing, I certainly will have Cortland replace my line. Johnny

Response:

Welcome to the Lazerline cracked line club.  I sent back 3 lines to cortland for replacement last season.  Just return the line to cortland adn they will replace it with another. Cheers gp : Last year I bought a 4wt WF floating Cortland Lazerline. After a fishing : outing this last weekend I noticed that pieces of the coating were coming : off. I have used it maybe on a half dozen trips. The "flaking" seems to be : about the 30′ mark on the line. My guides are fine. I didn’t mistreat the : line by wrestling in some hungry tree or anything like that. Has anyone : else had this experience with this or any other line? — gp

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last year I bought a 4wt WF floating Cortland Lazerline. After a fishing outing this last weekend I noticed that pieces of the coating were coming off. I have used it maybe on a half dozen trips. The "flaking" seems to be about the 30′ mark on the line. My guides are fine. I didn’t mistreat the line by wrestling in some hungry tree or anything like that. Has anyone else had this experience with this or any other line? I can’t offer any help I’m afraid Johnny, but wanted to relate my experience to the audience : I bought a 5-wt Cortland 444 about 5 years ago and it is still going strong despite being used most weekends.  Showing a little memory now, especially at the start of the day, but an amazing line. I was chatting to the store owner who sold it to me all that time ago and he openly admitted that the new Lazer lines are noticeably less resilient than 444s. Anyone else ? Russ

Russ, last year I too bought and used a lazer line from Cortland and experienced the same problem. The coating on the line was delaminating from the core in a crazing sort of fashion. The line was a DT6F. I sent the line back to the company along with an explaination and they promptly sent me back a new line along with an explaination that went something like: "There was a bad batch of lines that caused problems like yours to other customers as well." Anyway, the new line has performed exceptionally well and the delamination problem has not resurfaced. — Lou Dutra Don’t kill your limit,…limit your kill.

Response:

Don, This is a known problem with (some) Lazer lines.  I have spoken to a number of other flyshop owners and all have experienced the problem.  Some of these lines had problems right out of the box, others took a few weeks to show problems.  I would suggest taking your line out and practice with it for a while and then check it very carefully.  If I were you I would carry an extra (444) line on your trip. Sandy Lockleer Creekside Fly Shop, Salem, Oregon http://www.halcyon.com/flyshop/

Response:

I have both a grey and lime green – 5 wt – and my experience is consistent with others on this thread:  the grey is cracked badly and I stopped using it after 10-15 times over a period of about a year.  The lime green is still OK, although without frequent treatments it does a great imitation of a sink tip.  Meanwhile, my 444SL’s ( two) have been great in all respects.  I should note that I bought both Lazers in 1994, so there may have been changes since then.  Nevertheless, I’ll stick with the 444.                                             Mark Faulkner

Response:

Cortland seems to be having a variety of QC problems. I spoke to a flyfishing professional/instructor a few weeks ago that was an avid Cortland 444SL user until last year. He also observed the Lazer line problem with chunks falling off the line with relatively little usage. He mentioned something about the plastisizer being the issue in the formulation of the coating. While WD40 and some other compunds can damage coatings it appears this problem exists right out of the box. He also had problems with 444SLs which he once swore by. The most specific example: he had eight brand new SLs down in the Bahamas for a bonefish school that he ran. When he had problems casting one they switched lines and still had problems. To make a long story short, they ran all eight lines between two palm trees and took a micrometer to them. The results: no two lines had exactly the same taper! Not small differences either, some diamater changes took place up to six feet away from where they should have. His advice: stay away from all Cortland lines for now (or maybe forever) and keep using your pre-1994 SLs. He says Cortland has not been the same since Chandler left. Today he is using Mastery and Ultras if anyone cares. Tom Don, This is a known problem with (some) Lazer lines.  I have spoken to a number of other flyshop owners and all have experienced the problem.  Some of these lines had problems right out of the box, others took a few weeks to show problems.  I would suggest taking your line out and practice with it for a while and then check it very carefully.  If I were you I would carry an extra (444) line on your trip. Sandy Lockleer Creekside Fly Shop, Salem, Oregon http://www.halcyon.com/flyshop/

–

Response:

The persons to contact at Cortland are Mr. Brian Ward or Tom McCullough at 1-800-368-7910. Hope this helps. Jack.

Response:

As for me, a month ago I was fishing, with a Lazer line, that turned out to be a piece of junk.  The store that sold it to me (Kingsway Sports in Guelph) special ordered it in for me so I can’t ask them to take it back. It would be a good line, (it’s a WF5F) if it FLOATED!.  Unfortunately, it gives a great imitation of a sink tip.  I would really appreciate the name of the contact person at Courtland so that I can tell him how much I REALLY like their crappy products. James P. Ward Twin Willow Farm Paisley, Ont.

I liked Lazer line, but it turns into a sinking tip after a few months and shows signs of becoming a county road map. These phenomena finally overcame my stubborn attachment to their performance, and I gave up on them for Cortland’s 444. Frankly, now I don’t miss the Lazer line at all. Mitch Mulhall

Response:

I would really appreciate the name of the contact person at Courtland so that I can tell him how much I REALLY like their crappy products.

Yeah, at least you’ll end up with a new line! =^) — CU, Jay Lee (Capelle a/d IJssel, The Netherlands)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Last year I bought a 4wt WF floating Cortland Lazerline. After a fishing outing this last weekend I noticed that pieces of the coating were coming off. I have used it maybe on a half dozen trips. The "flaking" seems to be about the 30′ mark on the line. My guides are fine. I didn’t mistreat the line by wrestling in some hungry tree or anything like that. Has anyone else had this experience with this or any other line? Hi I sure have. Return the line to Cortland and they will replace it. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog) I just bought a new 5 wt. DT floating Lazerline (lime), so I’m kind of interested in this thread. I’m heading over to Europe and don’t want my line to let me down. What kind of line dressing have you guys been using or not using on your lines? The little pad that Cortland ships with the line? Something else? What type of soap are you using if you clean it with soap. I wonder if some it’s some brands of line dressing or bug repellants that you’re using thats doing the line in? Does everyone, that has had problems, have some other products in common? Ones that could eat a line! Maybe we should list the stuff that comes in contact with our lines? And how offen you clean it. Might get to the bottom of this yet. So to get started, I’m using the Cortland pads and have Cortland "XL" line dressing. Use Repel 100 bug spray. A couple of different brands fly floatant also. Don Burns

I won’t be to worried about your europe trip. I have fished a laserline WF3F and WF5F for more than 6 month and haven’t had a proble= m but I know that the first generation laserline had this problem. If your dealer sold you a new one there is most likely no problem=

Response:

My advice, guys. Save your money and buy a Cortland 333HT. You’ll hardly notice the difference and you’ll have an extra $30 in your wallet.

Response:

Last year I bought a 4wt WF floating Cortland Lazerline. After a fishing outing this last weekend I noticed that pieces of the coating were coming off. I have used it maybe on a half dozen trips. The "flaking" seems to be about the 30′ mark on the line. My guides are fine. I didn’t mistreat the line by wrestling in some hungry tree or anything like that. Has anyone else had this experience with this or any other line?

Hi I sure have. Return the line to Cortland and they will replace it. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last year I bought a 4wt WF floating Cortland Lazerline. After a fishing outing this last weekend I noticed that pieces of the coating were coming off. I have used it maybe on a half dozen trips. The "flaking" seems to be about the 30′ mark on the line. My guides are fine. I didn’t mistreat the line by wrestling in some hungry tree or anything like that. Has anyone else had this experience with this or any other line? Hi I sure have. Return the line to Cortland and they will replace it. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

I just bought a new 5 wt. DT floating Lazerline (lime), so I’m kind of interested in this thread. I’m heading over to Europe and don’t want my line to let me down. What kind of line dressing have you guys been using or not using on your lines? The little pad that Cortland ships with the line? Something else? What type of soap are you using if you clean it with soap. I wonder if some it’s some brands of line dressing or bug repellants that you’re using thats doing the line in? Does everyone, that has had problems, have some other products in common? Ones that could eat a line! Maybe we should list the stuff that comes in contact with our lines? And how offen you clean it. Might get to the bottom of this yet. So to get started, I’m using the Cortland pads and have Cortland "XL" line dressing. Use Repel 100 bug spray. A couple of different brands fly floatant also. Don Burns

Response:

(Robert Hergan) writes: My advice, guys. Save your money and buy a Cortland 333HT. You’ll hardly notice the difference and you’ll have an extra $30 in your wallet.

I heartily agree. I have used five or six over the years and have found them to be very durable and a great value. — Roger

Response:

Last year I bought a 4wt WF floating Cortland Lazerline. After a fishing outing this last weekend I noticed that pieces of the coating were coming off. I have used it maybe on a half dozen trips. The "flaking" seems to be about the 30′ mark on the line. My guides are fine. I didn’t mistreat the line by wrestling in some hungry tree or anything like that. Has anyone else had this experience with this or any other line?

This seems to be a chronic problem with LazerLine. I have a friend who has encountered this problem with the ’slate’ colored LazerLines. In each case, he was able to return it for replacement. I have been using the ‘lime’ colored line for several years and have not had a problem. — Norm… San Jose, CA.

Response:

Last year I bought a 4wt WF floating Cortland Lazerline. After a fishing outing this last weekend I noticed that pieces of the coating were coming off. I have used it maybe on a half dozen trips. The "flaking" seems to be about the 30′ mark on the line. My guides are fine. I didn’t mistreat the line by wrestling in some hungry tree or anything like that. Has anyone else had this experience with this or any other line?

Where were you about a month ago?  I posted my problems with Cortland’s Lazer Line and had a lot of dissatisfied responses.  I’ve had 5 lines in 4 years.  I keep sending them back and they keep sending me new ones.  My problems with lines are always the same.  Thet crack to the point of seperating, they are impossible to keep clean and they get tiny fissures throughout.   The consensus feeling is that the line can’t handle heavy fish.  One guy posted that he bought a line right before a trip to Alaska(?) and did not get in 4 hours of fishing (he caught several heavy fish) before the line was useless.   Take the line back to where you bought it and tell the salesperson that you want this returned and to give you a new one.  If they won’t do this, e-mail me back and I will give you a contact man at Cortland to write to. Good luck. — sjf muddler Reedsville PA "just call me mud…."

Response:

Last year I bought a 4wt WF floating Cortland Lazerline. After a fishing outing this last weekend I noticed that pieces of the coating were coming off. I have used it maybe on a half dozen trips. The "flaking" seems to be about the 30′ mark on the line. My guides are fine. I didn’t mistreat the line by wrestling in some hungry tree or anything like that. Has anyone else had this experience with this or any other line?

Response:

Some of the early Lazers had this problem. I also had a problem with this – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Last year I bought a 4wt WF floating Cortland Lazerline. After a fishing outing this last weekend I noticed that pieces of the coating were coming off. I have used it maybe on a half dozen trips. The "flaking" seems to be about the 30′ mark on the line. My guides are fine. I didn’t mistreat the line by wrestling in some hungry tree or anything like that. Has anyone else had this experience with this or any other line?

Response:

Last year I bought a 4wt WF floating Cortland Lazerline. After a fishing outing this last weekend I noticed that pieces of the coating were coming off. I have used it maybe on a half dozen trips. The "flaking" seems to be about the 30′ mark on the line. My guides are fine. I didn’t mistreat the line by wrestling in some hungry tree or anything like that. Has anyone else had this experience with this or any other line?

I can’t offer any help I’m afraid Johnny, but wanted to relate my experience to the audience : I bought a 5-wt Cortland 444 about 5 years ago and it is still going strong despite being used most weekends.  Showing a little memory now, especially at the start of the day, but an amazing line. I was chatting to the store owner who sold it to me all that time ago and he openly admitted that the new Lazer lines are noticeably less resilient than 444s. Anyone else ?  Russ

Response:

 Last year I bought a 4wt WF floating Cortland Lazerline. After a fishing  outing this last weekend I noticed that pieces of the coating were coming  off. I have used it maybe on a half dozen trips. The "flaking" seems to be  about the 30′ mark on the line. My guides are fine. I didn’t mistreat the  line by wrestling in some hungry tree or anything like that. Has anyone  else had this experience with this or any other line?

Yes, Cortland did have a problem with a batch of lazerlines – Take your line back to the dealer or send it directly to cortland.  Cortland has been very responsive to resolving this problem. Sandy Lockleer http://www.halcyon.com/flyshop/ Creekside Fly shop Salem, Oregon

Response:

Question:

  Which sinking line should I choose for nymph fishing in small rivers?   unless the river is really large, you don’t need a sinking at all…   TimW

Do you change for a sinking leader or will the nymph drag the leader down with it quickly enough? Peter. —  Peter Sollander, CERN ST/MC/TCR  Tel: (+41) 22.767.8081          Fax: (+41) 22.767.8910        

Response:

  Which sinking line should I choose for nymph fishing in small rivers?   unless the river is really large, you don’t need a sinking at all…   TimW Do you change for a sinking leader or will the nymph drag the leader down with it quickly enough?

I use a long leader and split shot and fish effectively in 6+ feet of water.  One spot in particular that comes to mind.  The majority of the Roaring Fork flows between these two big rocks right in the main channel causing impressive rapids.  I would routinely wade deep right to the edge of this and nail nice ‘bows one nymphs fished deep with 5 or more BB’s right in this fast water.   My problem with sinking lines, leaders etc. is that the fly will float up from the bottom too far, unless the weight is RIGHT THERE within 6 inches or so of the bug.  A fly one or two feet off the bottom in this fast water will not catch fish. TimW For larger rivers, and some streamer applications, a Hi-speed, Hi-D Sinking tip line is WAY cool.  Dragging a big wooley behind a driftboat with a sink tip can be deadly. TimW

Response:

: If the river is unusually fast or deep, you might want to use a sink : tip, the weight of the line depends on what your rod is rated for. The : idea is to get the nymph to bounce on the bottom once in a while. A : small split shot or some "Shape-A-Weight" on the leader can do the same : thing. True. A great time and money saver. : As far as being a beginning caster, I would get the Weight Forward (WF) : line as it is easier to put the fly where you want it. I’ve been told this often, but my experience has been that they’re really not that much easier to cast than a DT line, and DT lines turn over a mite easier. PLus, you can turn ‘em around when then get worn! –mike

Response:

Which sinking line should I choose for nymph fishing in small rivers? DT, WF?  sinking tip? #1-#4? and what about leaders?  Sinking? Fast Sinking, Extra Fast Sinking?

If you are fishing "small rivers" I wouldn’t bother with a sinking line. You can get a fly down to the fish even with a floating line. A long leader with a small split shot or bead head  will do in most situations. I’ve been tying beads into the body of many nymphs instead of lead and find they work great. You can also add a sink tip to your line, sized to the situation. I always carry a few in different sizes just in case. If you are planning to fish a lake, or a fast, deep river then a sinking line would be handy. I carry a med. sink for lakes and time the decent. For Steehead in rivers I pack a floating, 10 ft. sink tip, and a 24 ft 325 gn. sink tip. The last line works great for strippers….but casting is kind of chuck and duck….

Response:

For nymph fishing small rivers and creeks a floating line is generally all that is required.  For especially deep hole a weight forward would be a good choice, but in  most instances a floating line with a leader set for the depth of water, and a strike indicator, is my general set-up of choice. Clint

Response:

writes: Which sinking line should I choose for nymph fishing in small rivers? DT, WF?  sinking tip? #1-#4? and what about leaders?  Sinking? Fast Sinking, Extra Fast Sinking? What’s a beginner’s choice Any ideas?

Hi Pete, I would not choose a sinking line for nymph fishing in most situations. The object of most nymph fishing is to get the fly to *dead drift* in the bottom 6" or so of water.  It’s very tough to dead drift a nymph on a sinking line as you have no control over the sinking line once it sinks. You are at the mercy of the currents because you can’t mend the line.  It is much more effective to fish nymphs on a floating line with a long leader because you can mend it and control the drift; and it’s especially effective to use a strike indicator to suspend the nymph exactly where you want in the water column and drift it down the current lane you choose. If you want particulars on this, drop me some e-mail & I’ll let you know how to set such a system up, along with casts to help you fish it. The place I use a full sinking line is in a lake as it allows you to swim your fly right over the top of weedbeds and structure which is very difficult to do with a floating line and a long leader.  Works well because there is no current in the lake to push your line around.  You could also use a sink tip for this though It tends to rise up a bit as you retrieve it.   A sink tip is a good choice in rivers because you can mend the belly section (the floating part) to control the sinking part.  Unfortunately it’s not real good for "dead drifts" as you need to have some tension on the line to detect the strike and if you have tension on the line you’re not getting a dead drift.  I will use a sink tip for swimming streamers across the current and also for swinging nymphs through the current to imitate a big swimming nymph (like an isonychia) or perhaps a caddis pupa (rarely but once in a while). Don’t feel you need to go out and buy all the different types of lines – floating, sinking (in 6 different densities), and sink tips (in all the different densities and about 10 or 12 different lengths).  Get a floating line and learn how to use it.  Then if you are going to fish specific conditions – such as on a lake at a depth of 10 feet deep – get the appropriate line for those conditions.  Otherwise you can go out and buy 6 different lines or more and still not have the one you need when you need it.                                          Hope this helps,                                                   Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

Which sinking line should I choose for nymph fishing in small rivers? DT, WF?  sinking tip? #1-#4? and what about leaders?  Sinking? Fast Sinking, Extra Fast Sinking? What’s a beginner’s choice Any ideas? Cheers,        Pete. —  Peter Sollander, CERN ST/MC/TCR  Tel: (+41) 22.767.8081          Fax: (+41) 22.767.8910        

Response:

Which sinking line should I choose for nymph fishing in small rivers?

unless the river is really large, you don’t need a sinking at all… TimW

Response:

Which sinking line should I choose for nymph fishing in small rivers?

If the river is unusually fast or deep, you might want to use a sink tip, the weight of the line depends on what your rod is rated for. The idea is to get the nymph to bounce on the bottom once in a while. A small split shot or some "Shape-A-Weight" on the leader can do the same thing. As far as being a beginning caster, I would get the Weight Forward (WF) line as it is easier to put the fly where you want it.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :  I have NEVER seen a woman hunt. NEVER !!! :  In fact, the only ones with guns have been the police. :  ( a seperate thread )  <– I mean this. Would it make any difference if you had seen a woman hunter? I know one who bagged two deer last year, She skinned, butchered and is in the process of eating them. She has been hunting for about 25 years. Bill & r Not really, I can show you nazi skinheads who happen to be black. BTW, we saw your buddy Newt on TV last night. I used to have some respect for conservatives.  Yeah, they are out to destroy the human race and all, but unlike liberals they stick to their agenda of genocide.  Liberals want to educate the poor one day, then " give them the stick on a cat " the next. Newt, like Clinton, started as an envronmentalist.  The polluters invited him to lunch, wrote him a check and the rest is history.

Out of curiousity, are you in High School or what?  Your immature hostility is really misplaced in rec.backcountry.  If you’ve never seen a woman hunt, then where have you been?  I’ve hunted for 25 years and there are plenty of women out there every year.  All of my hunting buddies are much more courteous and well-behaved towards those with other opinions than you are.  You’re the type I hope I don’t have to tolerate in the woods. Please keep your emotional politics to yourself.  You appear to have low self-esteem since you seem to need to lash out at others, rather than enjoying a civil issue-based discussion.  Before you get a life, get some manners, please!  Thank you.

Response:

:  I have NEVER seen a woman hunt. NEVER !!! :  In fact, the only ones with guns have been the police. :  ( a seperate thread )  <– I mean this. Would it make any difference if you had seen a woman hunter? I know one who bagged two deer last year, She skinned, butchered and is in the process of eating them. She has been hunting for about 25 years. Bill

& r Not really, I can show you nazi skinheads who happen to be black. BTW, we saw your buddy Newt on TV last night. I used to have some respect for conservatives.  Yeah, they are out to destroy the human race and all, but unlike liberals they stick to their agenda of genocide.  Liberals want to educate the poor one day, then " give them the stick on a cat " the next. Newt, like Clinton, started as an envronmentalist.  The polluters invited him to lunch, wrote him a check and the rest is history.

Response:

No, "we" aren’t agreed, if you include a number of hunters who have posted to this forum.  They seem to think that a hunter shooting someone (not an accidental discharge) is not an illegal act, if it was "an accident", ie a "misidentified" target. About as illegal as accidentally injuring someone with a car?  Is your hunters premium insurance paid?

Wow, I thought that I was done with this thread.  Ah well, guess not.         Scotty, let me clear up a misconception you seem to be having.  A car is a utilitarian object.  We all use them as a basic transportation device.  In today’s society we cannot get along without them.  we each agree to a basic social contract each time we get behind the wheel.  we each know the risks of driving.         Now, a gun is a weapon.  It’s sole purpose is destruction.  It will be used to destroy a target, a game animal, or a person.  Is the difference clear yet?  You *need* a car.  You do not *need* a gun.   The only social contract here is the responsibility of the person behind the trigger.  I do not choose to own a gun, therefor I have *NO* responsibilty for gun safety.  You choose to hunt?  You choos to take on the responsibility. period.         Now to elaborate further, I am not opposed to gun ownership.  My point in this thread has been to advocate for responsible gun ownership and use.  I have been appalled by reading repeated posts by folks to immature or to stupid to realize that guns are not toys.         I don’t give a damn if your fucking hunters insurance is paid up or not.  An insurance settlement is cold comfort to the family of a VICTIM of a hunting *accident*.  IMHO, your post clearly shows that you are one of those folks that seems unable to realize what a huge responsibility you have resting on your shoulders every time you sight down that gun and squeeze that trigger.           Once again, I will say that I hope that anyone guilty of killing or injuring another person in a hunting *accident* will never see the outside of a prison cell again. Shaun

Response:

[..] No, "we" aren’t agreed, if you include a number of hunters who have posted to this forum.  They seem to think that a hunter shooting someone (not an accidental discharge) is not an illegal act, if it was "an accident", ie a "misidentified" target.

*Ahem* If you can post instances of ‘a number’ of hunters stating, in this thread, that negligently shooting someone is not illegal, we’d *love* to see it. Take your time — we’ll wait. -TD

Response:

My $.02 I am loath to push unnecessary laws on anybody and strongly believe in the concept of traditional rights wich might include hunting, fishing, harvesting and sqatting ( read camping a’la Grapes-o-Wrath ). But several trips to London have convinced me that the one part of the Bill-o-Rights which is wearing thin is the guns part. I have lived in bad-ass neighborhoods all my life.  Here you also want to decide where you stand on the milita issue. I have met a good many hunters who are in fact harvesting, are funny when drunk and dont use the gun as a ppenis extension. They hunt because they are poor and taht has been a good way to put food on the table. On the other I hand, I saw a BMW in a hunting camp in the Catskills. This could only be owned by a Wall Street Trader of a crack dealer. Think about it.  Neither should be armed under any circumstances. Plus the average $30,000 price for a 4WD throws the traditional argument in the trash.  And for most, I can swear by the lack of women hunters, the bored rod is a penis extension.  So what to do ??  Simple:    a) Buy your meat or even better go veggie.    b) Use the fishing throw-back policy.      How? Control the breeding with birth control implants      shot from shot guns.  In this way, build families or      herds which can think for themselves and also be tracked      for driving, farming, and tick control purposes.    c) Get lyme tick disease under control with booster shots.  Most hunters ( and snow-mobilers ) do not love the woods.  They  go out to the great outdoors to control and destroy them.  We  go into the woods because it is simply the most beautiful thing  there is.  The "great outdoorsmen" are also storm trooper wanabes.  What the hell do you want that type around for.  Rehabilitate them,  the cold war is over.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Christian Jac obi) writes: [..] I agree, the woods is one of the safest places.  It would be even more safe if there were no hunters.  I know this may feel bad by reasonable hunters, but how can a hiker distinguish between reasonable hunters and not so reasonable ones? Well, lets just say that a small number of well-publicised cases of negligence are not grounds for outlawing a pursuit that has been part of human existence since god-knows-when. The human as predator IS a part of nature. To say that we have evolved beyond hunting because our claws and teeth and senses have dulled is like saying we should all stay indoors during cold weather because our fur no longer covers us.

In all fairness, I’ve got to jump back in and add something.  I no longer hunt during rifle deer and elk season.  I only hunt large game with a muzzle loader or bow.  If a hunter only has one shot, then he/she will generally be a little more careful.  I also find this more of a challenge.

Response:

Mike, Scotty, let me clear up a misconception you seem to be having. [and later..] IMHO, your post clearly shows that you are one of those folks that seems unable to realize what a huge responsibility you have resting on your shoulders every time you sight down that gun and squeeze that trigger.   You should check your attributions more carefully.  Scott Linn ("Scotty" to you) is arguing the same side you are.  The remarks you’ve attributed to him are from another poster.

 Scott Linn is on my side, if you can characterize this debate as having "sides".  In this you are correct.  However, I was not responding to Scott Linn, I was responding to Scotty um Davis?  I believe that was his last name, though I no longer have the post. therefore, please feel free to read all posts next time.       A car is a utilitarian object.  We all use them as a basic transportation device.  In today’s society we cannot get along without them.  we each agree to a basic social contract each time we get behind the wheel. we each know the risks of driving. How convenient of you to define the social contract only in terms of what you want and declare that your desires are necessities while others’ are conveniences..  Plenty of people get along just fine without cars;  in light of that fact I believe your statement that "we" cannot get along without them would be more accurate if it were to read "I" cannot get along without them.

It’s not convenient at all. It’s merely a reality.  The poster, Scotty Davis (?) equated hunting accidents with car accidents.  The CLEAR context of the post is that each of us knows the risks inherent in driving a car.  If we are involved in an accident while driving, we are involved in the same activity and are each bound by a clear social contract.         No such contract exists with regard to hunting.  I have no say in how a hunter behaves.  I am not engaged in hunting and should therefore be minimally impacted by it.  I should not be shot at again. Period.  Do you see the difference?  I’m not sure how much clearer I can make it.         I am not trying to say by this that hunting must be outlawed. I am saying, as I’ve said all along, that hunters have the sole responsibility for their actions.  Hunting "accident" victims have no responsibility regardless of the situation.  if a hunter discharges a weapon and harms or kills another individual not involved in a similar pursuit, the response should be swift and sure. I’m also curious by your reference to a "basic social contract" that we’ve all agreed to.  Ironically the "right" you argue in favor of (automobile ownership) *is not* explicitly protected by any official act of our society while the right you argue against (gun ownership) *is*.

        It’s not ironic at all.  I’m not challenging gun ownership as far as you know.  I’ve *never* expressed and opinion one way or another in this forum.  If you wish to construe advocacy for sane hunting practices as opposition to gun ownership, that is of course your priviledge.  You would be incorrect, but that would be nothing new here.           I don’t know where you find the term *right* with regard to automobile use.  I can accept a right of ownership certainly, but use is a priviledge bound by the basic tenets of prudent use of the vehicle.  This is the social contract I speak of. Once again, I will say that I hope that anyone guilty of killing or injuring another person in a hunting *accident* will never see the outside of a prison cell again. A pretty sweeping generalization that is far too draconian for my tastes. There are accidents, and there are Accidents.  I’m perfectly willing to believe that gun owners should be held to high standards of precaution but arguing that the penalty for any conceivable hunting accident which injures another person should be life imprisonment goes *way* too far.

        You’re right.  Read as a clear prescription, I have gone to far.  I did not actually mean life in prison, however.  I was speaking rather loosely.  I apologize.  OTOH punishments should be extremely stiff and should send a clear message that the sort of bullshit that frequently goes on in part of the hunting community is unacceptable and will *not* be tolerated. Shaun

Response:

Most hunters ( and snow-mobilers ) do not love the woods.  They go out to the great outdoors to control and destroy them.  We go into the woods because it is simply the most beautiful thing there is.  The "great outdoorsmen" are also storm trooper wanabes.

I just stumbled onto this thread, and generally hate getting into hunting discussions, but this is absurd.  I’ve hunted all my life, and virtually everyone I’ve hunted with (men and WOMEN) would agree with your third sentence above.  Very few would fail to laugh at the others. Hunters, as others have pointed out, are not a monolithic group.  There are poor ones and rich ones, slob hunters and game wardens, traditionalists and techno-freaks, just like there are in any other sport.  Some hunters follow ethical codes of conduct; others do not.  The "problem hunters" that make the woods unsafe at times should be trained by other hunters to be safer, or weeded out by some testing process (i.e. hunters safety course requirements).   My wife and I both hunt, as have all the men and women in my family for generations.  But I will not venture into the woods in Indiana during deer or turkey season, not because the hunters are necessarily unsafe, but because there are far too many of them for the limited public lands available.  In Oregon (where I am from) or Idaho (my wife’s home) the story is different; I would not hesitate to go mushrooming during deer season or XC skiing during elk season because there is simply more space.  The only other real source of trouble, IMHO, is when you get "city boys" (and girls) out in the woods with guns and 1)without proper safety training, 2) without proper guidance from an experienced hunter, and 3) without having an ethical tradition to guide them.  Hence the BMW in the Catskills camp referred to earlier.  If children do not learn hunting ethics from thier parents, they may grow up to be gun nuts and make the woods unsafe. But hunters in general are not the problem. — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University        Dept. of History                 "Nothing interesting occurred today…"         -Meriwether Lewis at Ft. Clatsop, Oregon, Jan.4th, 1806

Response:

yes, you are very right, in a pragmatic sense.  but environmentalists are necessarily idealists at heart, and in order to have a dreamn become reality, we must look ahead to perfection, and not necessarily deal with the problem as it exists.

The ONLY way to improve ANY situation is by dealing with the problem as it exists.  Blind idealism is just that…..blind.

Response:

Scotty, let me clear up a misconception you seem to be having. [and later..] IMHO, your post clearly shows that you are one of those folks that seems unable to realize what a huge responsibility you have resting on your shoulders every time you sight down that gun and squeeze that trigger.  

 You should check your attributions more carefully.  Scott Linn ("Scotty"  to you) is arguing the same side you are.  The remarks you’ve attributed  to him are from another poster. A car is a utilitarian object.  We all use them as a basic transportation device.  In today’s society we cannot get along without them.  we each agree to a basic social contract each time we get behind the wheel. we each know the risks of driving.

 How convenient of you to define the social contract only in terms of what  you want and declare that your desires are necessities while others’ are  conveniences..  Plenty of people get along just fine without cars;  in light  of that fact I believe your statement that "we" cannot get along without them  would be more accurate if it were to read "I" cannot get along without them.  I’m also curious by your reference to a "basic social contract" that we’ve  all agreed to.  Ironically the "right" you argue in favor of (automobile  ownership) *is not* explicitly protected by any official act of our society  while the right you argue against (gun ownership) *is*. Once again, I will say that I hope that anyone guilty of killing or injuring another person in a hunting *accident* will never see the outside of a prison cell again.

 A pretty sweeping generalization that is far too draconian for my tastes.  There are accidents, and there are Accidents.  I’m perfectly willing to  believe that gun owners should be held to high standards of precaution  but arguing that the penalty for any conceivable hunting accident which  injures another person should be life imprisonment goes *way* too far.

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[..] No, "we" aren’t agreed, if you include a number of hunters who have posted to this forum.  They seem to think that a hunter shooting someone (not an accidental discharge) is not an illegal act, if it was "an accident", ie a "misidentified" target. *Ahem* If you can post instances of ‘a number’ of hunters stating, in this thread, that negligently shooting someone is not illegal, we’d *love* to see it. Take your time — we’ll wait. -TD

Tom,         Try reading all of the posts in the thread if your site archives back that far.  Unfortunately mine do not or I would repost several just such responses.  You may be interested in one person in particular by the name of David Paul.  Frankly the only reason I remember even his name is a rather heated exchange of e-mail that we engaged in.         You are correct, at least, in your view that most hunters have come down in favor of sensible hunting practices.  I regret that I can’t say all have done so.         I will search my cache and see if I have any of the original posts saved.  If I do, I will repost them over the next couple of days. Shaun

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I’m just getting into hiking, and one thing I can say is that I feel MUCH safer in the woods than I do driving on a crowded highway. I agree, the woods is one of the safest places.  It would be even more safe if there were no hunters.  I know this may feel bad by reasonable hunters, but how can a hiker distinguish between reasonable hunters and not so reasonable ones? Chris

The same way you can distinguish between safe drivers and unsafe drivers.  You can’t.  But we all get on the roads anyway, don’t we?

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My $.02 I am loath to push unnecessary laws on anybody and strongly believe in the concept of traditional rights wich might include hunting, fishing, harvesting and sqatting ( read camping a’la Grapes-o-Wrath ). But several trips to London have convinced me that the one part of the Bill-o-Rights which is wearing thin is the guns part. I have lived in bad-ass neighborhoods all my life.  Here you also want to decide where you stand on the milita issue.

Here is where you may get shot, and not because you were mistaken for a deer either.   I have met a good many hunters who are in fact harvesting, are funny when drunk and dont use the gun as a ppenis extension. They hunt because they are poor and taht has been a good way to put food on the table. On the other I hand, I saw a BMW in a hunting camp in the Catskills. This could only be owned by a Wall Street Trader of a crack dealer. Think about it.  Neither should be armed under any circumstances. Plus the average $30,000 price for a 4WD throws the traditional argument in the trash.  And for most, I can swear by the lack of women hunters, the bored rod is a penis extension.

Got mine for under $6,000.00.  Of course, it’s an ‘87 model. So what to do ?? Simple:   a) Buy your meat or even better go veggie.

Do you think THIS meat volunterers to be slaughtered?       b) Use the fishing throw-back policy.     How? Control the breeding with birth control implants     shot from shot guns.  In this way, build families or     herds which can think for themselves and also be tracked     for driving, farming, and tick control purposes.   c) Get lyme tick disease under control with booster shots. Most hunters ( and snow-mobilers ) do not love the woods.  They go out to the great outdoors to control and destroy them.  We go into the woods because it is simply the most beautiful thing there is.  The "great outdoorsmen" are also storm trooper wanabes. What the hell do you want that type around for.  Rehabilitate them, the cold war is over.

I hunt AND backpack, and occassionally combine the two.  I never drink while doing either, and if hunting is an activity which promotes pride in being of the male gender, then so be it.  I don’t bitch at a woman if she wants to knit or crochet.  Hunters support the wildlife as much (or more) than anyone, and while there are exceptions, most are responsible people.  

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<Big Diatribe Snipped   Get with the program.  If you don’t know what you’re screaming about then, shut up and listen.

Wow Larry,         Don’t I feel small and pathetic now.  I just have a couple of comments for you. 1.  Feel free to read the posts and gain a clear understanding of the thread and the previous posts before embarrassing yourself again with a similar post. 2.  I’ll "shut up" when I’m damn good and ready to, who the hell do you think you are? 3.  Take a prozac. Happy New Year Shaun    

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Sad.  Sad commentary.  You classify all hunters with the jackboot skinheads with no business in the woods.  How open minded! Yes, there are slob hunters.  There are slobs in every form of activity known to man.  It’s the good ones that turn in the bad ones.  What do you care if the hunter is in a BMW or a WWII Jeep?  Does a really expensive bowling shirt make a guy better or worse than the bowler wearing a T-shirt?  You are extremely materialistic and by all accounts equally as shallow. You obviously know little of hunting and are happy to let thousands know it.  If you let go of that tree you’re hugging long enough to check it out you might actually see some merit in it.  Who do you suppose maintains the health of the deer, antelope and elk herds.  You?  Try again.  It’s the hunters and their contributions to state and federal Fish & Game coffers through tag fees. Where do you think all those fish come from in the stocking trucks?  You.  No, all you can contribute is mouth and criticism.  Those fish are provided by the funds genrated by fishing and hunting licenses by those nasty hunters and fishermen.  Who do you suppose goes out in the winter to feed the deer that are starving from lack of food?  You?  No.  That alfalfa hay is bought by the fees from hunting and fishing tags. Herds are maintained for a reason.  To improve the quality of life for the animal.  A common cry from the ignorant is "Well, they were doing Ok before WE got here so, why shoot ‘em?"  A legitimate question if you don’t know anything about wildlife. Have you ever tasted elk or, deer or, antelope?  No.  You satisfied with slaughtering cow and sheep.  Oh, and cutting a few tuna and chickens along the way is Ok, too.  You are as hypocritical as they come.  Those poor little defenseless furbearing creatures!  While you and the rest of your clowns are busy throwing ink and paint on expensive fur coats you happen to be wearing your Nike and Reebok tennies with leather belts and wallets.   Last year, Idaho lost more acreage than covers the entire state of Rhode Island to lightning fires.  Now that all of the under brush and grasses have been obliterated, all of the wintering grazing lost and virtually all of the weather cover burnt to the ground what do you do with thousands of deer, elk, bear and another hundred species with no food or cover?  I know.  Let’s let them die a slow agonizing death from starvation!  Let’s let them migrate into the towns and eat everything from the ground up!  Let’s let them migrate into the ‘burbs and get killed by the dozens daily by car and truck.  With any luck maybe they can kill a few baby humans along the way in the wreckage! You know, we could issue some permits to go into the affected areas and thin out the herds so the available forage can support what’s left in their natural habitat.  We can try to truck and helicopter some food into the backcountry for what herds can’t be reached by hunters or, vehicle.  No.  Makes too much sense. Let’s let those treehuggers fly over and see hundreds of dead deer huddled up in the nooks and crannies of the mountains.   Next year, we’ll have maybe 5 or 10% survive and it’ll take them 7 to 10 years to get back to normal herd size unless we have two bad winters in a row.  Then, it’s over.  That’s what bad game management buys you.  Get with the program.  If you don’t know what you’re screaming about then, shut up and listen.

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Hunting accidents are no different than any other accident

You can classify accidents in lots of ways.  Accidents can always happen, but it makes a difference whether it just happens, or the person which caused the accident did something dangerous.  It also makes a difference whether the person causing the accident endangers himself or other people. One of the bad things of a hunting accident is that the endangered person has no legal way of preventing the hunter shooting at him before the hunter actually does it.  (Speeding drivers get fined even without accident) I’m just getting into hiking, and one thing I can say is that I feel MUCH safer in the woods than I do driving on a crowded highway.

I agree, the woods is one of the safest places.  It would be even more safe if there were no hunters.  I know this may feel bad by reasonable hunters, but how can a hiker distinguish between reasonable hunters and not so reasonable ones? Chris

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It still appears that hunters think pointing a weapon at an unidentified object and shooting it is the same as someone accidentally killing someone with a car.

I am beginning to wonder if you actually believe this, or if you believe that repetition will make others believe it. Hunters, like ic design engineers, are not of a single mind. A gun/rifle is a *weapon*.  It’s primary purpose is to kill.  A car is not. Why is that so hard to grasp?

Negligent homicide is negligent homicide regardless of the agent of death. Not all fatal car accidents involve negligence, nor do all fatal gun accidents. Why is *that* so hard to grasp? cheers, scott smay /Everything I know is wrong./

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yes, you are very right, in a pragmatic sense.  but environmentalists are necessarily idealists at heart, and in order to have a dreamn become reality, we must look ahead to perfection, and not necessarily deal with the problem as it exists. this issue is really too complex to say whether hunting should be allowed or not. one simply can not hunt if it so displeases them. otoh, hunters do need to improve their track records with respect to accidental shootings and such. ‘enjoy our wild america’  (marty stouffer) evan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sad.  Sad commentary.  You classify all hunters with the jackboot skinheads with no business in the woods.  How open minded! Yes, there are slob hunters.  There are slobs in every form of activity known to man.  It’s the good ones that turn in the bad ones.  What do you care if the hunter is in a BMW or a WWII Jeep?  Does a really expensive bowling shirt make a guy better or worse than the bowler wearing a T-shirt?  You are extremely materialistic and by all accounts equally as shallow. You obviously know little of hunting and are happy to let thousands know it.  If you let go of that tree you’re hugging long enough to check it out you might actually see some merit in it.  Who do you suppose maintains the health of the deer, antelope and elk herds.  You?  Try again.  It’s the hunters and their contributions to state and federal Fish & Game coffers through tag fees. Where do you think all those fish come from in the stocking trucks?  You.  No, all you can contribute is mouth and criticism.  Those fish are provided by the funds genrated by fishing and hunting licenses by those nasty hunters and fishermen.  Who do you suppose goes out in the winter to feed the deer that are starving from lack of food?  You?  No.  That alfalfa hay is bought by the fees from hunting and fishing tags. Herds are maintained for a reason.  To improve the quality of life for the animal.  A common cry from the ignorant is "Well, they were doing Ok before WE got here so, why shoot ‘em?"  A legitimate question if you don’t know anything about wildlife. Have you ever tasted elk or, deer or, antelope?  No.  You satisfied with slaughtering cow and sheep.  Oh, and cutting a few tuna and chickens along the way is Ok, too.  You are as hypocritical as they come.  Those poor little defenseless furbearing creatures!  While you and the rest of your clowns are busy throwing ink and paint on expensive fur coats you happen to be wearing your Nike and Reebok tennies with leather belts and wallets. Last year, Idaho lost more acreage than covers the entire state of Rhode Island to lightning fires.  Now that all of the under brush and grasses have been obliterated, all of the wintering grazing lost and virtually all of the weather cover burnt to the ground what do you do with thousands of deer, elk, bear and another hundred species with no food or cover?  I know.  Let’s let them die a slow agonizing death from starvation!  Let’s let them migrate into the towns and eat everything from the ground up!  Let’s let them migrate into the ‘burbs and get killed by the dozens daily by car and truck.  With any luck maybe they can kill a few baby humans along the way in the wreckage! You know, we could issue some permits to go into the affected areas and thin out the herds so the available forage can support what’s left in their natural habitat.  We can try to truck and helicopter some food into the backcountry for what herds can’t be reached by hunters or, vehicle.  No.  Makes too much sense. Let’s let those treehuggers fly over and see hundreds of dead deer huddled up in the nooks and crannies of the mountains. Next year, we’ll have maybe 5 or 10% survive and it’ll take them 7 to 10 years to get back to normal herd size unless we have two bad winters in a row.  Then, it’s over.  That’s what bad game management buys you.  Get with the program.  If you don’t know what you’re screaming about then, shut up and listen. . .

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   Scotty, let me clear up a misconception you seem to be having.  A car is a utilitarian object.  We all use them as a basic transportation device.  In today’s society we cannot get along without them.  we each agree to a basic social contract each time we get behind the wheel.  we each know the risks of driving…

As evidence by the number of "accidents"….    Now, a gun is a weapon.  It’s sole purpose is destruction.  It will be used to destroy a target, a game animal, or a person.  Is the difference clear yet? You *need* a car.  You do not *need* a gun.   The only social contract here is the responsibility of the person behind the trigger.  I do not choose to own a gun, therefor I have *NO* responsibilty for gun safety.  You choose to hunt?  You choos to take on the responsibility. period.

As for whether or not you *need* a gun, how about looking at the location of the person. Is he/she in an urban cesspool or a rural area? I know of many people who live in more remote areas that do NOT have vehicles ( one in particular has never had one! He lives in Northern BC, by a river. A canoe is his trans. His rifle is important to him. It is by it that he eats.    Now to elaborate further, I am not opposed to gun ownership.  My point in this thread has been to advocate for responsible gun ownership and use.  I have been appalled by reading repeated posts by folks to immature or to stupid to realize that guns are not toys.

I have always agreed with this. The same applies to automobiles. Like firearms, they are quite placid when left alone, but when in irresponsible hands, can be quite the opposite.    I don’t give a damn if your fucking hunters insurance is paid up or not.  An insurance settlement is cold comfort to the family of a VICTIM of a hunting *accident*.  IMHO, your post clearly shows that you are one of those folks that seems unable to realize what a huge responsibility you have resting on your shoulders every time you sight down that gun and squeeze that trigger.  

All too common, I am afraid. I have been taught that you must take responsibility for your actions. Kinda like the first law of physics (I think): For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.    Once again, I will say that I hope that anyone guilty of killing or injuring another person in a hunting *accident* will never see the outside of a prison cell again.

I would like to see that extended to auto accidents also!! Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Shaun

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snip A gun/rifle is a *weapon*.  It’s primary purpose is to kill.  A car is not.  Why is that so hard to grasp? snip

   Why is the primary purpose of the item important?  If a car is used to kill somebody it’s ‘less bad’ than a gun?  Dead is dead!  I’ll remember to use my car next time I want to kill somebody, maybe I’ll get off easier. Hopefully everybody knows this last part is tongue in cheek. — Kirk Mueller Hughes Aircraft Co., Radar and Communications Sector El Segundo, CA  USA —  All comments are strictly my own. —

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: : 3.  As to taking a poorly planned shot.  Define that!  Unless you are at the scene and behind the shooter, how can you tell? : You have to be kidding. : I’ll take a stab:  When a hunter shoots a person. : Well, that’s a workable definition. But it’s also rather : pointless. I think we are agreed that accidentally : shooting someone should be illegal. No, "we" aren’t agreed, if you include a number of hunters who have posted to this forum.  They seem to think that a hunter shooting someone (not an accidental discharge) is not an illegal act, if it was "an accident", ie a "misidentified" target.

About as illegal as accidentally injuring someone with a car?  Is your hunters premium insurance paid? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Scott Linn CMOS IC Design Engineer Hewlett-Packard Integrated Circuits Business Division – Corvallis, OR

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: : 3.  As to taking a poorly planned shot.  Define that!  Unless you are at the scene and behind the shooter, how can you tell? : You have to be kidding. : I’ll take a stab:  When a hunter shoots a person. : Well, that’s a workable definition. But it’s also rather : pointless. I think we are agreed that accidentally : shooting someone should be illegal. No, "we" aren’t agreed, if you include a number of hunters who have posted to this forum.  They seem to think that a hunter shooting someone (not an accidental discharge) is not an illegal act, if it was "an accident", ie a "misidentified" target. — Scott Linn CMOS IC Design Engineer Hewlett-Packard Integrated Circuits Business Division – Corvallis, OR

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: 3.  As to taking a poorly planned shot.  Define that!  Unless you are at the scene and behind the shooter, how can you tell? You have to be kidding. I’ll take a stab:  When a hunter shoots a person.

Well, that’s a workable definition. But it’s also rather pointless. I think we are agreed that accidentally shooting someone should be illegal. By your definition, all this suggestion would do, is make that two crimes rather than one (and one, making a poorly planned shot, fairly minor compared to the other.) Do you really mean that poorly planned shots should be illegal, but only if someone were accidentally hit? If you do, I think it’s pointless, but I wouldn’t object. If you mean something more by "poorly planned shots", then I’d like to hear what, and how you plan to determine this and prosecute cases.                                            Frank Crary                                            CU Boulder

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1.  "Marking" bullets is ludicrous as any decent hunting round deforms drastical I believe this certainly possible in the same manner explosives can be marked, with less risk of performance lost.  I will admit it maybe too costly.

Explosives are not marked in the way that you think. It’s possible to identify the manufacturer and, I think, the lot number. The specific buyer can not be identified. But, given the small number of buyers, even that limited information is useful in investigating a crime. You could, in principle, "mark" ammunition in the same way. But it would be pointless. Tens of millions of people buy ammunition. You’d learn that the ammunition used in a given crime was made by, say, Winchester on the first week of March, 1995. Since a huge number of people possess ammunition made by the same company, during that period, you haven’t really narrowed down the list of suspects. More to the point, most states don’t require records of ammunition sales. So all you’d learn is that the criminal purchased the ammunition from any one of hundreds of stores. Somehow this doesn’t strike me as a viable way of investigating a crime. 2.  As to making the wounding of an animal a crime, that is absolutely stupid.   What if a person lines up perfectly but as he pulls the t rigger, his perfect shot is now just a wounding shot because the animal moved ? predicting when a animal will move is the hunter’s responsiblity.

I’m afraid you are assuming absolutely perfect skill. You might as well say, "never, ever, missing is the hunter’s responsibility." _No_ one _never_ misses. What you suggest would make it a crime to hunt and be less than inhumanly perfect. …Every book I have read on Hunting by ‘expert" hunters seemed to think that wounding an animal was a very bad thing.

Sure. No one is questioning that. That’s why hunters _try_ to avoid simply wounding an animal. But that’s try to the best of their ability. It doesn’t mean hunters are always perfect. I never said this should be a felony, illegal hunting yes, dangerous shots yes, but not wounding.  I would suggest a rapidly escalating fine: 1st $80 bucks, 2nd $200, 3rd 10,000 4th go to jail.

Again, you have an enforcement problem. How, exactly, would the police or forest service find out who had wounded the animal? Have one officer per hunter following them around? If not, how do you plan to prove "beyond any reasonable doubt" who was at fault? …Though without marked bullets I doubt they will ever catch the idiots who shot all the wounded animals.

See above. They type of "marking" that is possible, isn’t useful for identifying the person who fired the bullet. 4. Hunters do have a very big liability to carry when they hunt.  I believe that thorough hunters education classes should be MANDATORY and not grand-fathered as they currently are for people over a certain I agree, a good class would solve many problems esp. if it had a mandatory demostration of shooting proficiency.

The ones here in Colorado do, and are mandatory for most people. (There is a grandfather clause, exempting people who were over 18 at the time the law was passed. I think that means anyone born before 1955 or so.) BTW I have nothing against hunters of over populated species.  My only concern would be if the percentage of successful trophy hunters was high enough to affect deer breeding patterns by killing only the largest animals.

It doesn’t quite work that way. Here in Colorado, the effects of hunting have been seen on the "breeding patterns" (evolution, really) of elk. (Or at least, this is what the forest service guy at the hunter’s safety class said.) But the effect hasn’t been to reduce the size of the animals, what you’d expect from "killing only the largest animals." It’s been to reduce the average size of antlers, and increase the frequency of stunted ones (i.e. ones that aren’t just small, but which never developed fully.) I’m afraid I don’t see how that adversely affects the elk.                                                   Frank Crary                                                   CU Boulder

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1.  "Marking" bullets is ludicrous as any decent hunting round deforms drastical

I believe this certainly possible in the same manner explosives can be marked, with less risk of performance lost.  I will admit it maybe too costly. 2.  As to making the wounding of an animal a crime, that is absolutely stupid.   Has the person who suggested this EVER fired a firearm?

Yes,   What if a person lines up perfectly but as he pulls the t rigger, his perfect shot is now just a wounding shot because the animal moved ?

predicting when a animal will move is the hunter’s responsiblity.  Every book I have read on Hunting by ‘expert" hunters seemed to think that wounding an animal was a very bad thing.  I will admit, most of them had done it which is why.  Has this person committed a felony? I never said this should be a felony, illegal hunting yes, dangerous shots yes, but not wounding.  I would suggest a rapidly escalating fine: 1st $80 bucks, 2nd $200, 3rd 10,000 4th go to jail.  Though without marked bullets I doubt they will ever catch the idiots who shot all the wounded animals. 3.  As to taking a poorly planned shot.  Define that!  Unless you are at the sce

Dead Cows, broken windows, bullet ending up near a human, dog ect would all be proof positive if the gulity party could be found. 4. Hunters do have a very big liability to carry when they hunt.  I believe that thorough hunters education classes should be MANDATORY and not grand-fathered as they currently are for people over a

certain I agree, a good class would solve many problems esp. if it had a mandatory demostration of shooting proficiency.  This is even more important in Bow hunting since in most hunting conditions the required skills are more difficult to obtain. it was the last weekend of hunting season.  I did not have any orange on me but one of the gentlemen took me and my partner to his cabin to GIVE us some extra orange clothing to place on our packs to

help That is not a reasonable requirement, not because it is too much to ask, but because anyone who takes a shot a human while hunting deer should be charged with reckless endangerment. BTW I have nothing against hunters of over populated species.  My only concern would be if the percentage of successful trophy hunters was high enough to affect deer breeding patterns by killing only the largest animals.  I think most hunters would agree that this is very unlikely. Robert Posey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Scott Olds

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: 3.  As to taking a poorly planned shot.  Define that!  Unless you are at the scene and behind the shooter, how can you tell? You have to be kidding. I’ll take a stab:  When a hunter shoots a person. — Scott Linn CMOS IC Design Engineer Hewlett-Packard Integrated Circuits Business Division – Corvallis, OR

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I am getting so tired of seeing this us versus them attitude between the mountain bikers, backpackers, and hunters.  I hunt, backpack, and mountain bike.  NO ONE GROUP IS PERFECT!  I can point out numerous "backpackers" who leave scarred ground from open groundfires.  I can point out mountain bikers who are rude.  Hunters that are careless (admittedly more dangerous).  The key thing is that no one group owns the wilderness areas.  Everyone needs to realize this and that the key thing is that people act RESPONSIBLY.  Also, keep in mind that unless you are knowledgable about something, do not offer "solutions" to problems. 1.  "Marking" bullets is ludicrous as any decent hunting round deforms drastically upon impact.  This HELPS to ensure that animals are wounded less and killed more.  This is in effect more humane.   2.  As to making the wounding of an animal a crime, that is absolutely stupid.  Has the person who suggested this EVER fired a firearm?  What if a person lines up perfectly but as he pulls the trigger, his perfect shot is now just a wounding shot because the animal moved ?  Has this person committed a felony?  What a pile of garbage.   We have better things for the courts to do. 3.  As to taking a poorly planned shot.  Define that!  Unless you are at the scene and behind the shooter, how can you tell? 4. Hunters do have a very big liability to carry when they hunt.  I believe that thorough hunters education classes should be MANDATORY and not grand-fathered as they currently are for people over a certain age.  Also, any activity, be it mountain biking or hunting should be severly penalized if the person is under the influence. 5.  Yes, I have been on the other side and worried about hunting season.  I was going into the Pecos Wilderness in NM and as I arrived at the trailhead I talked with a couple of gentlemen who happened to be hunters who told me that it was the last weekend of hunting season.  I did not have any orange on me but one of the gentlemen took me and my partner to his cabin to GIVE us some extra orange clothing to place on our packs to help us.  He even offered us room in his cabin to stay the night.  The point is that we all have responsibilities to take reasonable efforts to protect ourselves. Anyway, that’s enough for right now.  I’m sure that this will stir things up even more. Scott Olds

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Question:

        Hello, flyfishers.  I have been lucky enough to land a job working in the Yosemite Backcountry as a highcamp helper.  I was wondering where there are good places to flyfish.  Most likely I will be working at Vogelsang or Sunrise.  I know there are many lakes up in the backcountry that were stocked a while back, and while the ones that are easily accessible are fished out, the ones that are hard to get to have some good fishing (so i hear).         I am looking for these hard to reach spots of seclusion and good fishing.  My whole introduction to the sport revolves around my job this summer at Yosemite, so if there isn’t any good fishing for me this summer, I will be very sad.  So, please tell me there are still fish in Yosemite.  As soon as I get up there, I’m going to try to get in tight with the rangers and maybe they can help me find places. Regards, George C. — *George M. Chan                         * "Yea, but bacon tastes good,  * *                                       *                               *

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Yes there is great flyrodding in the Yosemite back country. 2 books to have with you. Flyfishing the Sierras and Tom Stienstras fishing in California.

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George    The person who recommended Tom Stienstra’s book is exactly right.   That is the place to look.  However, Tom seems to think that fishing at Yosemite isn’t very good because the lakes up there haven’t been stocked since some time in the 80’s.  He’s pretty pessimistic about fishing Yosemite but let us know if you find some spots that have fish in them.    Good Luck    Dennis Alexander

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