Question:

I feel so….used…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, I think Don might have had an ulterior motive for the question about emu feathers – he’s got them for sale on that www.canflyfish.com.au website! They’re not as nice as ostritch.     and not remotely as rare as mu feathers, which are located only in semi-baja california, and are extracted at great risk to the collector. yfitons wayno Any fly tyers out there tried Emu Feathers? Yep. Wolfgang anybody else?

Response:

They’re not as nice as ostritch.

Sure, a simple question simply answered, and right away somebody has to go technical!      :) Wolfgang who knows that’s it’s really a matter of how much ya got to cover.

Response:

Hey, I think Don might have had an ulterior motive for the question about emu feathers – he’s got them for sale on that www.canflyfish.com.au website!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They’re not as nice as ostritch.     and not remotely as rare as mu feathers, which are located only in semi-baja california, and are extracted at great risk to the collector. yfitons wayno Any fly tyers out there tried Emu Feathers? Yep. Wolfgang anybody else?

Response:

Any fly tyers out there tried Emu Feathers? — Don Cantrell Cantrell Fly Fishing http://www.canflyfish.com.au Hand crafted flies, and selected fly tying materials

Response:

Any fly tyers out there tried Emu Feathers?

Yep. Wolfgang anybody else?

Response:

They’re not as nice as ostritch.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any fly tyers out there tried Emu Feathers? Yep. Wolfgang anybody else?

Response:

They’re not as nice as ostritch.

    and not remotely as rare as mu feathers, which are located only in semi-baja california, and are extracted at great risk to the collector. yfitons wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any fly tyers out there tried Emu Feathers? Yep. Wolfgang anybody else?

Response:

Question:

Thanks for the info. Bill , that River Runner is exactly what I need . I phoned to order one a few minutes ago and he`s gone for two weeks fishing     I would have got one overnighted to my place but… Thanks Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Jeff, We are using them on small outboards from 4hp to 25hp on the lower America River in Sacramento, California to sneak around the shallow rocky river for stripers. The river has a 5mph speed limit so horse power is not an issue. We are using small boats that run 8′ to 16′ long. Mac’s "River Runner" is what you need. They seem to work well and help reduce prop damage. You can get them directly from Mac’s or you can find them at some boat or marine supplies too. They come in several sizes and are easy to install. Here is the web address: http://www.propsavers.com/ — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com After smashing my prop to bits yesterday I`m seriously considering a prop guard . Any of you using them ? Like em ? Hate em ?  Just like your experiences on performance after the install . I`m not going high speed , just doing a lot of river running and it LOW LOW LOW right now , 2 feet of water in some spots . Ouch ! Thanks Jeff

Response:

Trouble with that is my engine is a 30HP and when the jet pump goes on I lose about 30 % . I would like the jet , but if I`m going to have to go new I might as well sell my outfit and buy a 4.3 L inboard / jet river boat . A Merc 40 HP Jet up here is $ 7300.00 CAN plus taxes . Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You should seriously consider replacing the lower unit with a jet unit. They use them quite a bit in the North West on the rivers there. Just my $0.02 worth After smashing my prop to bits yesterday I`m seriously considering a prop guard . Any of you using them ? Like em ? Hate em ?  Just like your experiences on performance after the install . I`m not going high speed , just doing a lot of river running and it LOW LOW LOW right now , 2 feet of water in some spots . Ouch ! Thanks Jeff

Response:

After smashing my prop to bits yesterday I`m seriously considering a prop guard . Any of you using them ? Like em ? Hate em ?  Just like your experiences on performance after the install . I`m not going high speed , just doing a lot of river running and it LOW LOW LOW right now , 2 feet of water in some spots . Ouch ! Thanks Jeff

Response:

Hi Jeff, We are using them on small outboards from 4hp to 25hp on the lower America River in Sacramento, California to sneak around the shallow rocky river for stripers. The river has a 5mph speed limit so horse power is not an issue. We are using small boats that run 8′ to 16′ long. Mac’s "River Runner" is what you need. They seem to work well and help reduce prop damage. You can get them directly from Mac’s or you can find them at some boat or marine supplies too. They come in several sizes and are easy to install. Here is the web address: http://www.propsavers.com/ — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After smashing my prop to bits yesterday I`m seriously considering a prop guard . Any of you using them ? Like em ? Hate em ?  Just like your experiences on performance after the install . I`m not going high speed , just doing a lot of river running and it LOW LOW LOW right now , 2 feet of water in some spots . Ouch ! Thanks Jeff

Response:

You should seriously consider replacing the lower unit with a jet unit.  They use them quite a bit in the North West on the rivers there. Just my $0.02 worth – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After smashing my prop to bits yesterday I`m seriously considering a prop guard . Any of you using them ? Like em ? Hate em ?  Just like your experiences on performance after the install . I`m not going high speed , just doing a lot of river running and it LOW LOW LOW right now , 2 feet of water in some spots . Ouch ! Thanks Jeff

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Question:

I am going to Ireland next week and would  like to do some fly fishing (trout or salmon).  Any recommendations on places to fish and places to stay (old houses and castles are preferrable to hotels).

You need to indicate area. You might want  to see ‘Trout and Salmon Rivers of Ireland" by Peter O’Reilly – Merle Unwin Books, London, 1st published 1991. There’s also a book on loughs (lakes ) if that’ what interests you. Many hotels are old houses and castles. Lazarus — Lazarus Cooke

Response:

I am going to Ireland next week and would  like to do some fly fishing (trout or salmon).  Any recommendations on places to fish and places to stay (old houses and castles are preferrable to hotels). Thanks …Mark

Response:

I am going to Ireland next week and would  like to do some fly fishing

You left your homework a bit late . . . The Irish Tourist Board may still produce the marvellous Angler’s Guide to Ireland which it gave away free (at least in 1957, date of mine . . .) A favourite book is C. Conor O’Malley’s With a Fishing Rod in Ireland pub. 1975 by Vantage (a notorious vanity press . . .) — Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)

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Question:

George Gehrke: shithead. …seems a bit ungentlemanly…

Get it straight, George. I’m the fucking putz. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

…i hope to have a good granite chisel soon… i think it might be useful with some of my "signature" fly ties as well. jeff (chiseling out more mutants for the masses)

Somehow it seemed so difficult, all attempts just fizzled, this was mainly due it seems, to the fact that they were chiselled, he swore, he cursed, he begged and cried, at last he exclaimed "Dammnit!", how can you get proportions right, in such little bits of granite?". He sweated, learned, and tried again, until he knew some tricks, but no matter what he tried to do, his dry-flies sank like bricks, he tied flies for trout, and bass and pike, and even some for bream, and though he did his level best, results remained a dream.. Years went by, and then at last, enlightenment slowly dawned, frustrating hours and days of work, a new idea then spawned, he tied a whole new series up, and then he went a swapping, all now agreed his perfect flies, were beautiful, simply topping. Time came then at last for him, to pass on the gentle art, this time comes at last you see, to every poor old fart, his pupils marvelled at his skill, his flies even caught bones, how he managed this you ask?  He stuck to chiselling stones! TL MC

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George Gehrke: shithead.

…seems a bit ungentlemanly… jeff

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George Gehrke: shithead. …seems a bit ungentlemanly…

Yeah, but it would make a good epitaph for him just as written. <g — Charlie…

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…i hope to have a good granite chisel soon… i think it might be useful with some of my "signature" fly ties as well. jeff (chiseling out more mutants for the masses) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George Gehrke: shithead. …seems a bit ungentlemanly… Yeah, but it would make a good epitaph for him just as written. <g — Charlie…

Response:

I happen to think of another answer to your concerns David.  You’re just going to have to take me the way I am.  Someday, you’re going to miss me baby and all this originality and talent!  You’ll be laughing all the way to the river of no return. George Roff & Company "the gang’s all here!" (why fix something when it isn’t broke?) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George, I say this with true concern – no hate or disgust:  Get some professional help, not with your writing, but with your head. Dave

Response:

David,  trust me.  There is nothing wrong with my head, just too much on my plate.  I have enough E-mail proving how incorrect  your concern is, but I know you to be sincere. Stay loose and don’t sweat the details David.  Roff has too many editors and not enough good writers.  Can you help by contributing something? George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George, I say this with true concern – no hate or disgust:  Get some professional help, not with your writing, but with your head. Dave

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George, I say this with true concern – no hate or disgust:  Get some professional help, not with your writing, but with your head. Dave

Response:

Mike, I’ll keep this short and sweet.  You are a serious waste of my valuable time. No one in ROFF needs your kind of  criticisms.  You can’t take criticism yourself and you don’t know how to give advice in a constructive manner.   It must be your ethnic nature and educational back ground?  Therefore: there are no other reasons for me to have a civil conversation with you now or in the near future. By the way, I write just as well as you or anyone else,  given the time.  These seems to elude you entirely because there are many sportsmen (world wide) who disagree with your views and what you stand for.  You’re a competent fly tier. Why don’t you stick with what you do best?  (because you are politically inept, you lack social abilities and graces, besides being a total failure in "people skills")  Take night courses in these subjects then give it another go in  four years.  I cannot offer you better advice Mike. Take care.  End of conversation. George Gehrke "who isn’t interested in those who make personal attacks in public places"

Response:

Nobody gets paid for anything on ROFF. You are not Hemingway, and a number of people would be more than happy if you kept your gratuitous, barely comprehensible, and over-long ramblings, to yourself. Bullshit is bullshit, free or not.  In this case it is not free, it costs money to send tens of kilobytes of rubbish through the ether, some more some less, but it costs everybody money. I can accept that some things must be very bitter for you, this shines through in every post you make, like dim streetlamps glinting reluctantly from the oily whorls on  pools of sewage,  but that

Question:

says… [snip] anyone who knows Jeff knows that this is roughly equivalent to Martha Stewart declaring that she’s too tired to make real mashed potatoes and that [snip] I can’t imagine anyone who hangs out in this group would appreciate being compared with Martha Stewart

I guess Jeff doesn’t like being compared to Martha Stewart any more than he likes being too tired to fish

Response:

…actually, just thinkin ’bout martha gives me a woody… uh ken… you ain’t puttin any of this stuff in your articles are you? jeff (schwing king) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… [snip] anyone who knows Jeff knows that this is roughly equivalent to Martha Stewart declaring that she’s too tired to make real mashed potatoes and that [snip] I can’t imagine anyone who hangs out in this group would appreciate being compared with Martha Stewart

Response:

… uh ken… you ain’t puttin any of this stuff in your articles are you?

Nah, ROFFians are safe for the time being. Nobody wants to buy trip reports, or not mine at any rate. — Ken Fortenberry

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rw wrote… I can’t imagine anyone who hangs out in this group would appreciate being compared with Martha Stewart That’s Fortenberry’s wet dream.

I thought Martha Stewart was just his pseudonym.  You mean there is a real Martha Stewart??  ;-) — Warren Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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says… [snip] anyone who knows Jeff knows that this is roughly equivalent to Martha Stewart declaring that she’s too tired to make real mashed potatoes and that [snip] I can’t imagine anyone who hangs out in this group would appreciate being compared with Martha Stewart

You’ve obviously never seen Ken and Martha cast.  I have – both of ‘em.  No wonder he looks up to her.  <G — Ken Fortenberry nice TR! Winter is slowly settling into central NJ.  The most fun we’re having around here is scouring a local waterway for signs of searun brown trout.

Could be worse.  you could be stuck on a computer, dreaming about trout.  (sigh) Thanks for sharing it. Rob

Great TR BTW, but don’t let it go to your head. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

… You’ve obviously never seen Ken and Martha cast.  I have – both of ‘em.  No wonder he looks up to her.  <G

Yeah, yeah, go ahead and yuk it up about my casting but it wasn’t ME who had our poor guide wishin’ for a football helmet while piloting our drift boat down the Muskegon. Great TR BTW, but don’t let it go to your head.

Not to worry dahling, I won’t forget the little people. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

says… [snip] anyone who knows Jeff knows that this is roughly equivalent to Martha Stewart declaring that she’s too tired to make real mashed potatoes and that [snip]

I can’t imagine anyone who hangs out in this group would appreciate being compared with Martha Stewart — Ken Fortenberry

nice TR! Winter is slowly settling into central NJ.  The most fun we’re having around here is scouring a local waterway for signs of searun brown trout. Thanks for sharing it. Rob

Response:

I can’t imagine anyone who hangs out in this group would appreciate being compared with Martha Stewart

That’s Fortenberry’s wet dream. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I was headed west on I-40 early Sunday morning when I saw the sign for the Blue Ridge Parkway. In a moment of inspired spontaneity caused in no small measure by the clear blue Carolina sky and the remembrance of the past two days fishing with Zimbo and Wayno, I quickly decided to postpone my trip to Alabama one more day and fish in the Park. I’d thought about fishing with Jeff and Waldo on Sunday hoping to be shown another of their Grandfather Mountain gems but they’d both been fishing since Thursday and Jeff said he was too tired to fish another day. Now, anyone who knows Jeff knows that this is roughly equivalent to Martha Stewart declaring that she’s too tired to make real mashed potatoes and that instant mashed potato flakes are a "good thing". Simply astonishing. So when Waldo called, (and speaking of Waldo and Martha Stewart, his upscale, yuppie, downtown Morganton flyshop looks like something straight out of Martha’s design book , we decided to call it a weekend. But the Blue Ridge Parkway beckoned and I pointed the Forester towards the Park. Arrived at Oconaluftee to find the Newfound Gap Road closed for construction. So much for inspired spontaneity. I drove around the south side of the Park and fished Twenty Mile Creek that afternoon instead. The solitary hike up the Twenty Mile Creek trail on a glorious Sunday in December afforded me an opportunity to reflect on the previous days fishing and on flyfishing in general. To bowdlerize Camus, flyfishing represents, even in the depths of the impending winter, that invincible summer within me. Flyfishing challenges my intellect with its arcana of ephemeral bugs, and the contrasting physical challenges of deftly flicking a delicate stick and boulder hopping in the Blue Ridge Mountains of North Carolina nourishes my soul in ways I can hardly comprehend. That Friday with Zimbo was our first time fishing together. It was a grey, warm day and the woods around Upper Creek had the smell of moldy, fecund winter. So different from the crisp, sterile smell of a midwestern winter. Funny how different people approach a stream. We climbed down from the trail to a big rock face where we could see three trout feeding in, by Upper Creek standards, a pretty big pool. While I sat on the rock studying the pool looking for an approach, Zimbo grew impatient and slid off the rock to give it a go. It was definitely a spot for an upstream cast but short of taking a swim there was no way to get downstream of the pool. And so we fished. I with a 6′3" 3wt Hamilton ‘boo and Steve with a Cabela’s stowaway. We fished our part of the stream in precisely the three hours Waldo had predicted and then tried to return to that first pool from the downstream side but darkness intervened and we called it a day. It was a real pleasure to finally get to fish with Steve. Wayno had locked us out of the cabin and was already well into the Balvenie when we got home to Beech Mountain. Dinner was necessarily carry-out as the tourist services on Beech Mountain are dependent on the (non-existent) snow. Jeff drove off the mountain at some ungodly hour of the morning to fish with Walt while Wayno and I did the civilized thing and ate a leisurely breakfast down in Banner Elk. The weather continued to cooperate, despite assurances of rain from the weather man, and we hiked down the Elk River in the chardonnay light of late fall in the mountains. No winter here, not just yet. How in the hell do I describe fishing with Wayno ? It’s beyond my poor power. There is a joy, a mischievous, boyish glee in the way he throws himself onto a trout stream. It’s an infectious joy and you just cannot help but get caught up in the delight of flyfishing writ large upon the personal history of that Rowan County rogue. Wayno left to get back in time for the LSU-Tennessee game and Jeff and I had a large time cooking for ourselves back at Zimbo’s cabin. Remember Zimbo’s cabin ? That’s the title of this post. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Question:

I think that I’ve got it narrowed down to a couple of different models: Wilderness Systems The Ride Perception Swing I plan on using it in the bays around Long Island, NY I do not plan on too much use in the surf, but it may happen. I’m looking for a good Kayak…I am trying to keep down the length to under 14 feet or so. I notice that The Ride has a factory installed Rudder as an option. Would this be a good idea for my kind of use? Is the Swing more versatile than the Ride? How about stability??? Help a newbie out please!! -Tim Before you buy.

Response:

I think that I’ve got it narrowed down to a couple of different models: Wilderness Systems The Ride Perception Swing

I have 2 Ride’s that I use in flat water rivers and inshore in saltwater (I live in Atlanta). I don’t have rudders and haven’t had problems with tracking, but I use mine primarily to fly fish from and not for any kind of touring. — Charlie…

Response:

I grew up on Peconic and Shinnecock bays and wish I could paddle there during these interminable hot days down south. If I were you I would go for the Freedom by WS over the Ride. Both have a rudder option but the Freedom without rudder is as stable as any sot I have ever been in. It seems to sit lower in the water which means it gets less side push from winds, it is faster than Ride and the cost is comparable (Ride w rudder, Freedom w/o) The rudder is not to steer but to keep you on a more or less straight line when winds push against you. I doubt you will need a rudder on the Freedom, learn to control the boat by edging and adjusting your paddle stroke. I would invest the extra money in getting the optional back rest, it will be worth it to you in comfort. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that I’ve got it narrowed down to a couple of different models: Wilderness Systems The Ride Perception Swing I plan on using it in the bays around Long Island, NY I do not plan on too much use in the surf, but it may happen. I’m looking for a good Kayak…I am trying to keep down the length to under 14 feet or so. I notice that The Ride has a factory installed Rudder as an option. Would this be a good idea for my kind of use? Is the Swing more versatile than the Ride? How about stability??? Help a newbie out please!! -Tim Before you buy.

Response:

I was looking at the Freedom as well, but I elimintaed it due to it’s size….I thought it to be  too long.  I’ll take a closer look.  Anyone with any other thoughts??? Thanks, Tim I – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I grew up on Peconic and Shinnecock bays and wish I could paddle there during these interminable hot days down south. If I were you I would go for the Freedom by WS over the Ride. Both have a rudder option but the Freedom without rudder is as stable as any sot I have ever been in. It seems to sit lower in the water which means it gets less side push from winds, it is faster than Ride and the cost is comparable (Ride w rudder, Freedom w/o) The rudder is not to steer but to keep you on a more or less straight line when winds push against you. I doubt you will need a rudder on the Freedom, learn to control the boat by edging and adjusting your paddle stroke. I would invest the extra money in getting the optional back rest, it will be worth it to you in comfort. I think that I’ve got it narrowed down to a couple of different models: Wilderness Systems The Ride Perception Swing I plan on using it in the bays around Long Island, NY I do not plan on too much use in the surf, but it may happen. I’m looking for a good Kayak…I am trying to keep down the length to under 14 feet or so. I notice that The Ride has a factory installed Rudder as an option. Would this be a good idea for my kind of use? Is the Swing more versatile than the Ride? How about stability??? Help a newbie out please!! -Tim Before you buy.

Before you buy.

Response:

Hi Tim, I’m relatively new to sea kayaking and I recently bought a used Scupper Pro (sot) that’s 14′9". I got it because it was in my price range and offered good sized hatches for gear and I found it easy to paddle. (One week this summer I paddled around Shelter Island, Peconic Bay and such.) I’m curious why you didn’t want something longer than 14 feet. In my limited experience, length of the kayak on the water hasn’t been an issue – what do I not know? I am thinking of investigating the rudder option for the Scupper – tracking in wind on the big bays around here (southern New Jersey) would be easier! Karenne

Response:

Question:

Tony, Thanks for the tip. Do you know if Bonda PU Power Adhesive can be purchased in the USA? Thanks. Bob E.

Bob, it is available here from a few companies. The brand I’ve used is called Gorrila Glue. Woodworking supply stores will have one brand or another. Use this stuff carefully, it is messy and does not clean up easily. Bob Smith Before you buy.

Response:

If it air cures, does that mean it will take a very long time to cure since the adhesive will be buried between cork and graphite?

Hi Mu, I think ‘cures’ rather than ‘dries’ is the operative word. The adhesive reacts to the moisture in the air or in the material being glued. It probably wouldn’t hurt to dunk the cork handle in water for a few minutes, then pat dry the excess water, before using this PU adhesive (see article in link below). I think Bob Smith has a better handle (’scuse the pun) on this than I have. Thanks, Bob, for your input. But try this for more info: www.woodworking.com/magazine/jul96/poly/ I’ll certainly be giving this stuff a trial for my next rod building project. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

I was very interested to learn that his company now recommends a polyurethane adhesive. This stuff requires no mixing. It air cures, reacting to moisture in the air or in the timber, etc. that is being joined. Most importantly, this adhesive ‘foams’ slightly and fills up any space between the cork and the blank, where the reaming has not been exact.

If it air cures, does that mean it will take a very long time to cure since the adhesive will be buried between cork and graphite? Mu

Response:

In article <Pine.SOL.4.10.10003122128550.5607- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was very interested to learn that his company now recommends a polyurethane adhesive. This stuff requires no mixing. It air cures, reacting to moisture in the air or in the timber, etc. that is being joined. Most importantly, this adhesive ‘foams’ slightly and fills up any space between the cork and the blank, where the reaming has not been exact. If it air cures, does that mean it will take a very long time to cure since the adhesive will be buried between cork and graphite? Mu

Mu, the glue will dry as fast as the stated time on the label. A little faster if the surfaces to be glued are slightly damp. Moisture helps it cure. You only put the glue on one surface of the two to be glued. I use this stuff in my woodworking the rare times I have to glue up two dissimilar surfaces. Wood to metal or Corian etc. So it’ll work well for handles to fly rods.  Two things tho. It is not reversable and if you get any on bare ( bear ? ) skin you’ll have a nice dark brown stain to wear for a week or so. Nothing cleans this stuff up. Tape off the rod blank also at front and rear of the handle. The foam also sticks to anything it touches.  Bob Smith Before you buy.

Response:

Tony, Thanks for the tip. Do you know if Bonda PU Power Adhesive can be purchased in the USA? Thanks. Bob E. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We had a club meeting the other night and I bumped into an old acquaintance who is managing director of one of the leading wholesale suppliers of top quality cork rod handles in the UK. I first met him at a fly fishing show about 10 years ago and that meeting prompted me to write an article on cork that was published in one of our game fishing magazines. During our conversation the other night, the subject of gluing cork handles to blanks cropped up. I was very interested to learn that his company now recommends a polyurethane adhesive. This stuff requires no mixing. It air cures, reacting to moisture in the air or in the timber, etc. that is being joined. Most importantly, this adhesive ‘foams’ slightly and fills up any space between the cork and the blank, where the reaming has not been exact. Apparently, this PU adhesive is slightly resilient and works easily. My friend assured me that this stuff was much better suited to the application than epoxies, that are often recommended. The brand he sells is called ‘Bonda PU Power Adhesive’ and it sells (here) for about

Question:

The biggest difference, IMHO, is that sea kayakers don’t need to worry as much about the current smashing their faces into rocks!!! Not always true.  My front teeth bear witness to that sad fact.  It’s been my experience that most often you’ll need a roll in a sea kayak nearer to shore where the waves are a lot different (less regular), and where rocks can lurk just under the surface to rearrange the faces of the less wary.

Well, that is why I said "as much".   But you’re probably right that nearshore is where you’re most likely to capsize, right where rocks are most hazardous.  Not only are the waves less regular, they’re also bigger and more likely to break in the shallow spots where the rocks lurk. — Bob Myers                              InteleNet Communications, Inc. Phone: 714/851-8250                    Irvine, CA 92714 Fax:   714/851-1088                    http://www.intelenet.net/

Response:

I saw a good video several years ago put out by Perception when I was taking the ACA instructor class.  It shows a young lady sitting in her boat on the pool deck.  She puts the top of her head on the pool deck while keeping the boat upright…  It helps to have that kind of flexibility but it’s not required.  I’m sure you could get it from them. I have to agree  with the post by Chip Mefford.  In the sessions I’ve taught the technique he describes works best for most people.  There are basically 3 types of learners (get the ACA instructors man. for details on that) & you need to teach different people different ways.  I was able to teach my 110 lb. daughter to roll an open canoe (72 lb. outfitted) in about two hours so it’s technique not muscle. Dave Stockdill

Response:

Grace Under Pressure – Learning the Kayak Roll is good c-c only The Kayaker’s Edge also has a section on both the c-c & the sweep roll.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the fly fishing world about 15 years ago there was a deluge of articles on the mechanics of fly casting.  Most were written by excellent casters who really did know how to cast but who really didn’t have a clear visualization of what they were actually doing.  Videotaping eventually provided the correct answers.   Question:  are good videotapes of the Eskimo roll available?  Where? Bob — —– Bob Perkins, Director of Institutional Research and Planning Methodist College Fayetteville, NC  28311                          Office: 910-630-7037

Yes, watch what they do and don’t pay to much attention to what they say they do. THE KAYAKERS EDGE BY KENT FORD is one of the best how to kayaking videos.It has a lot more than rolling. Buy it,rent it or borrow it,after you have seen it you’ll probably buy it,if you aren’t to short of cash. My 11 year old grand son taught himself to roll I guess from watching the video. I sure didn’t teach him.                     gene

Response:

Question:  are good videotapes of the Eskimo roll available?  Where?

In "The Kayaker’s Edge", amidst all of the other intro and skill stuff, is about a ten minute bit on rolling. It’s got some good camera work that follows the roll above and below the water’s surface. It should be helpful for a lot of people. Paul

Response:

Question:  are good videotapes of the Eskimo roll available?  Where? Bob

"Grace Under Pressure" is an excellent video discussing the C-to-C roll.  It discusses the on-side, off-side and the hand roll.  I highly recommend it.  This was the video I was shown before I even got into a kayak for the first time.  I eventually bought a copy for myself and find it very useful. Viewing that in combination with reading the Bomb Proof Roll has helped me a lot.  I would check with your local REI, I know they have the book, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they have the video.  Or, any shop that carries kayaking equipment should have the video or know where to find it.   Also, most of the paddling companies who do mail order has it. I know for sure that the latest NRS catalog has it.  You can even order a catalog from NRS’s home page at http://www.gorp.com/nrs.htm Happy rolling! Harriet

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| Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now | with my sea kayak and am having problems.  Can anyone give me some tips | that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand.  Thanks I sincerely apologize for the confusion and appreciate the kind advice sent my way.  The original post appeared to be a sea kayaking fellow who was concentrating on the motion of his paddle — with no mention of hip snap.   Is there anyone out there in a sea kayak who can help him? Again, sorry for the confusion!!!

What confusion?  I’m a sea kayaker, and I’ve a good roll.  I really do not believe the roll is any different (in principle) in a sea kayak or a whitewater kayak.  The hip snap is just as much the key to the roll in a sea kayak.  Your advice was right on.  The boats do feel differently, and some sea kayaks can be very difficult to roll (certainly not all!), but the basic principles of rolling are exactly the same. The biggest difference, IMHO, is that sea kayakers don’t need to worry as much about the current smashing their faces into rocks!!! — Bob Myers                              InteleNet Communications, Inc. Phone: 714/851-8250                    Irvine, CA 92714 Fax:   714/851-1088                    http://www.intelenet.net/

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I’ve read two full descriptions, with pictures, of Eskimo rolls.  No wonder beginners get confused.  It took me several readings of both and careful scrutiny of the photographs to realize that the descriptions were essentially the same.  To wit:      Leverage roll  =  C-to-C roll      Screw roll  =  Sweep roll Beyond that, the descriptions spend more words on what to do with the paddle than on the mechanics of the hip roll which actually rights the boat.   Underwater, a person’s head and upper body have much more "sail area" than the paddle.  Positioning the paddle properly sets up the boater’s upper body in a brace for the hip roll.  Once the boat flips upright, the paddle brace helps the boater roll upright. In the fly fishing world about 15 years ago there was a deluge of articles on the mechanics of fly casting.  Most were written by excellent casters who really did know how to cast but who really didn’t have a clear visualization of what they were actually doing.  Videotaping eventually provided the correct answers.   Question:  are good videotapes of the Eskimo roll available?  Where? Bob — —– Bob Perkins, Director of Institutional Research and Planning Methodist College Fayetteville, NC  28311                          Office: 910-630-7037

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What confusion?  I’m a sea kayaker, and I’ve a good roll.  I really do not believe the roll is any different (in principle) in a sea kayak or a whitewater kayak.  The hip snap is just as much the key to the roll … The biggest difference, IMHO, is that sea kayakers don’t need to worry as much about the current smashing their faces into rocks!!!

Not always true.  My front teeth bear witness to that sad fact.  It’s been my experience that most often you’ll need a roll in a sea kayak nearer to shore where the waves are a lot different (less regular), and where rocks can lurk just under the surface to rearrange the faces of the less wary.

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re: Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now with my sea kayak and am having problems.  Can anyone give me some tips that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand.  Thanks

Response:

Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now with my sea kayak and am having problems.  Can anyone give me some tips that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand.  Thanks

Hips, hips, hips, and keep the head underwater for as long as humanly possible.  :-) — Macalester College St. Paul, Minnesota http://sonic.bigelow.macalstr.edu

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Wow!  I bet this turns into a monster thread….it might even exceed "Peeing in your boat"… I taught myself to roll with no outside instruction and, since I’m too dense to make sense out of pictoral instructions, virtually no book instruction. To start off the hundred-or-so tips you’ll undoubtdedly receive here, I would say go out and purchase a diving mask and wear it when you practice rolling.   I got nowhere except a bad sinus infiction before I started using a noseclip.   Using the noseclip I began to make progress; but once I started wearing the diving mask things really picked up – with tha mask on it is much easier to just sort of hang there upside-down and think things out before trhing to roll up. There are three or four other things I’m tempted to say, but I’ll leave them to those that know better than I do.

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A full face mask really helps while you are learning. Also the vido Kayakers Edge is white water but very good. Watch how others do it and don,t listen to closely to how they say they do it.

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re: Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now with my sea kayak and am having problems.  Can anyone give me some tips that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand.  Thanks

I taught myself a simple cross roll first.  Noseclip, mask, a watcher to give you feed back.  I wraped the end of the paddle in an old sleeping pad and stuck it in the rungs of my ladder leading into the lake.  Once I could do that OK, I moved to float on the end of the paddle.  Finally I could do a simple roll with just the paddle.  Then I learned a real extended paddle roll.  Never could get a screw roll down with the heavier sea kayak – might have to do with narrow paddle and lots of surface area and deck rigging. Have fun Steve

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| re: | | Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now | with my sea kayak and am having problems.  Can anyone give me some tips | that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand.  Thanks George: I think the best thing would be to take lessons. But, let me say a coupla things about rolls in general, at least for *me*.  If you get up part way and seem to sink back at the last moment, you are trying to raise your head too fast. I have found that keeping my eyes on the paddle as it sweeps back forces me to keep my head down. I also use the extended paddle roll, which IMHO is the best for a sea kayak roll beginner. Don’t forget the hip snap, try to have another person watch as you try your rolls, they might see you doing things that you aren’t aware of. Also, wearing a PFD during your attempts, even in a pool, helps to get started. Finaly, I have to practice each spring or I find that I get "rusty". Good luck. —         )                                J sales rep-sgi     http://www.dayton.sgi.com dayton, oh        513-258-7441  fax 7449

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Take a pool rolling class.  Four or five sessions should do it.  I also recommend the dive mask starting out.  The AMC and Casco Bay here in the Boston area offer these with a boat for under $100.  Good chance to try out other boats and meet some people to paddle with. — Regards, Sean

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Some things to help with learning to roll, roll, roll yer boat: 1)  Relax and have fun with this.  It’s NOT a muscle thing so just relax. 2)  Start by rolling the boat over with your hips on the edge of a pool      or dock or something to hold onto. 3)  Graduate to using a couple of kickboards after you can do the hip      roll easily on both sides from the solid hold. 4)  Reach out to the side as far as possible using the boards before      rolling up. 5)  Keep your head down as you "slinky" up rolling your hips first and      FOLLOWING with your head.  If your head comes out first before the      boat is over you’ll never make it. 6)  Once you can do this easily on one or both sides, take one of the      kickboards away.  One kickboard is about the lift that your paddle      will give, so try this until you can do it easily. 7)  NOW you can use your paddle, but it helps to have someone hold the end     at first.  With the paddle parallel to the boat as you go over with     your good hand forward (usually your writing hand, but eventually either)     sweep the paddle across the TOP of the water until the paddle is     perpendicular to the boat.  This forces your non-writing hand elbow     to slide UNDER the boat bottom and out of the water (when the boat is     upside down.  Then do the hip-slinky thing to roll the boat over and     follow with your head.  It helps to have someone watch and hold the     paddle a couple of times to get the feel and to have them watch that the     blade angle is flat on the surface of the water before you hip snap.  Don’t give up, it’s damn hard to do at first, but once you "get it" you     will wonder why it seemed so hard. 9)  Relax!  It doesn’t take a lot of muscle, it’s a technique thing. 10) Once you get it, play around with different ways of using your paddle     to get up and intentionally make yourself roll over in all sorts of     funny positions to learn to get into position from almost any angle etc… This is called the C to C roll, the eskimo is real similar but sweeps the blade rather than placing it perpendicular before you roll (kinda like doing the set-up for a C to C at the same time you roll your hips.  Most people need to learn the hip snap before putting it all together.  The eskimo roll from the stern of the boat rather than the bow is called a styr roll and is accomplished be sitting up from leaning back rather than from sweeping back from leaning forward. One of the greatest joys is your first roll in whitewater!  : ) Happy rolling! Robb

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| Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now | with my sea kayak and am having problems.  Can anyone give me some tips | that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand.  Thanks I noticed in another part of your post that you seem to be concentrating on your paddle.  I’m not a sea kayaker, but I have been in a sea kayak and rolled w/no trouble (without even a spray skirt).  Those of us rolling on whitewater rely most heavily on the "hip snap" element of the roll rather than the paddle (there’s even a "hands roll" which involves no paddle at all). Check out the book "The Bombproof Roll and Beyond" if you are still of a mind to teach yourself.  It’s an excellent book – one I’ve used as a reference for trouble shooting while teaching roll clinics. Good luck!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now | with my sea kayak and am having problems.  Can anyone give me some tips | that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand.  Thanks I noticed in another part of your post that you seem to be concentrating on your paddle.  I’m not a sea kayaker, but I have been in a sea kayak and rolled w/no trouble (without even a spray skirt).  Those of us rolling on whitewater rely most heavily on the "hip snap" element of the roll rather than the paddle (there’s even a "hands roll" which involves no paddle at all). Check out the book "The Bombproof Roll and Beyond" if you are still of a mind to teach yourself.  It’s an excellent book – one I’ve used as a reference for trouble shooting while teaching roll clinics. Good luck!

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| Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now | with my sea kayak and am having problems.  Can anyone give me some tips | that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand.  Thanks

i learned my good side roll with the standard c to c hip  snap, with a wide blade paddle. i never learned my bad side roll untill i started doing extended braces to the point where i could get my head in the water and skull in place .when you can do this with your head under the water you have mastered the hard part which is getting your head out without going back down. think it through in your head, it helps, and practice,practice,practice. just my 2 cents worth. my bad side roll was learned with my much prefered narrow blade paddle

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I noticed in another part of your post that you seem to be concentrating on your paddle.  I’m not a sea kayaker, but I have been in a sea kayak and rolled w/no trouble (without even a spray skirt).  Those of us rolling on whitewater rely most heavily on the "hip snap" element of the roll rather than the paddle (there’s even a "hands roll" which involves no paddle at all). Check out the book "The Bombproof Roll and Beyond" if you are still of a mind to teach yourself.  It’s an excellent book – one I’ve used as a reference for trouble shooting while teaching roll clinics. Good luck!

The above was in response to: | Help– I have been trying to master the Eskimo Roll for over a year now | with my sea kayak and am having problems.  Can anyone give me some tips | that migfht help me accomplish the challenge at hand.  Thanks

I sincerely apologize for the confusion and appreciate the kind advice sent my way.  The original post appeared to be a sea kayaking fellow who was concentrating on the motion of his paddle — with no mention of hip snap.   Is there anyone out there in a sea kayak who can help him? Again, sorry for the confusion!!! Happy paddling! Cheers Elizabeth

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I agree with all that has been said and especially encourage you to try the mask or goggles. I am still working on a consistent roll. My biggest problem is that I tend to lift my head too soon. I didn’t even believe i was doing it at first so I put on the goggles and opened my eyes and sure enough I was looking at the ceiling intstead of at my paddle or the pool bottom. As long as I look at the bottom I tend to come up without fail. Good luck Lisa

well, sheesh, I really kinda hate to say this;   I readily concurr with all these folks that all these aids may very well be the cats meow for some folk, but my experience has been rather different.   It took me a solid two years before I had a "bomber" roll. These days I can usually teach a 2 person class to roll in one pool session, 2 sessions at the outside.  I bought into the whole reading, goggles, nose plugs, video whatever. , , , , the thing is, where visualation may be of some assistance for some things, rolling is SO counterintuitive that for most people, making an attempt at visualizing what is going on only handicaps their progression.  I was honored once opon a time to teach alongside Eric Jackson of Adventure Schools. EJ can (I’ve seen him do it) teach a group of half a dozen people who have never held a paddle to roll in about an hour without getting out of his boat most of the time.  I can say with some certainty, that rolling is a BODY move, where sitting around underwater, upside down, looking around with your goggles on, is ridiculously disorienting. Visualizing is an INTELLECTUAL exercise. If your try to teach your intellect to teach your body to do something that is very counter to instinct, you are fighting an uphill battle with a slim chance at success. Facts are, your body wants air, in order to get air, it wants to get its air ports, (yer head) out of the water, as long as you are trying to get your head out first, you will fail.   I cannot teach as Eric does, I teach in the water, I only demonstrate that the roll is in fact quite easy, does not require a paddle, and can be done on or off sides. I after demonstrating these things so as to make them appear as easy as they in fact are, I beach my boat, get in the water with my students, sans paddles, take them by the hands, get good eye contact and show them how to use their bodies to make the move. Then I give them their paddle back, posistion it for them as they go through the motions a few times, each time gently correcting any attempts to use strength over grace, each time easing my grip on the paddle untill I only have a few fingers on the blade. I then usually let the blade go after positioning it a few times, soon I am not doing anything other than being close by as they execute their first few rolls. More often than not, my students are not aware that they have rolled on their own untill I tell them.  I guess my point is, rather than spend a lot of time concerning oneself with the "Okay, I’m upside down now, so if I put this hand here, cant the shaft this way, put that hand there, turn my head this way, and then, , ,  uh, I need to , , , uh, , , wait, lemme see, I need to twich this way and push that way and move the paddle this other way, , , wait, uh, , I need to, , , , crap, I need to breath!!! , , arrgghhh!!!"  Hook up with an instructor and have them teach you. Post Script;   It is a little strange in some sense, less so in others, that by and large both, in my experience, women very often learn the roll much faster than their S.O.’s in class. There are a lot of things at play here, however, i.m.e. the women seldom attempt to strong arm the roll, and the men nealy always do. In fact the more athletic the man, the more difficult it is to get them to let themselves roll. As another digression, I’ve had folk with a background in oriental martial arts specificly Akido, roll on their first try after having the roll slowly demonstrated.     Once I had a gal tell me that she though the paddle was messing her up, then executed a hands roll after about 2 tries. That perplexes me to this day. It was a real pill gettting her to roll with a paddle.

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, , , , the thing is, where visualation may be of some assistance for some things, rolling is SO counterintuitive that for most people, making an attempt at visualizing what is going on only handicaps their progression. … I can say with some certainty, that rolling is a BODY move, where sitting around underwater, upside down, looking around with your goggles on, is ridiculously disorienting. Visualizing is an INTELLECTUAL exercise. If your try to teach your intellect to teach your body to do something that is very counter to instinct, you are fighting an uphill battle with a slim chance at success. Facts are,

Well, I, for one, would like to state that this depends very much on who you are and how you learn, and different people learn in different manners.   In particular, I *absolutely* need to visualize a manuever before I can do it – and once I’ve visualized it completely, I really *can* do it.  It’s very frustrating for me when people of the opposite type (going for the "feel" of it *without* the visualization) try to teach me any physical skill.  I just can’t do it. On the other hand, contrary to most people’s experience, I very easily picked up my "off" side roll, once I had a good "on" side roll.  It was, for me, literally no more than reversing what I did on the "on" side.  No "learning" of body movements was required; all I had to do was visualize the reversed movements. What I’m trying to say is that we’re all different, and it’s hard to generalize that this way or that way is the best way to learn for everyone.  Some of us require visualization, and some of us require the body training. I guess my point is, rather than spend a lot of time concerning oneself with the "Okay, I’m upside down now, so if I put this hand here, cant the shaft this way, put that hand there, turn my head this way, and then, , ,  uh, I need to , , , uh, , , wait, lemme see, I need to twich this way and push that way and move the paddle this other way, , , wait, uh, , I need to, , , , crap, I need to breath!!! , , arrgghhh!!!"  Hook up with an instructor and have them teach you.

I agree that an instructor helps, on the other hand.  I need to watch an instructor to *see* exactly what he was doing.  But then I needed to think it through and visualize the whole process. — Bob Myers                              InteleNet Communications, Inc. Phone: 714/851-8250                    Irvine, CA 92714 Fax:   714/851-1088                    http://www.intelenet.net/

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 Once I had a gal tell me that she though the paddle was messing her up, then executed a hands roll after about 2 tries. That perplexes me to this day. It was a real pill gettting her to roll with a paddle.

I believe thqt there is really something to this idea that: "this clumsy paddle messes me up when I try to roll" My son could do hand rolls, both sides, the second day trying to roll, however he is still having trouble using a paddle to roll. I think that when you have a paddle in your hands, you use it and forget about the body. If you don’t have a paddle, you KNOW you have to use your body. Makes sense to me. Jon Hauris

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Question:

Any advice on the Provo River?  Going to Sundance in July for some R & R and some flyfishing.  Hear that nymphing is the best way to go.  What is the

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Any advice on the Provo River?  Going to Sundance in July for some R & R and some flyfishing.  Hear that nymphing is the best way to go.  What is the

If you go the "nymphing" route, you should do ok.  The weather is fairly warm, and the river usually gets crowded really fast.

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I try to fish it on a regular basis since I’m only 15 min. from it. We have had a late spring & the runoff is hitting it hard right now. There are still places to get on it but it’s tough fishing(fast, deep & a little dirty). If the water flow slows down it has good potential in July. I’d try; Chamois Caddis 14 – 18, Sow Bug 18 – 20, Brassies 16 – 18, Pheasant Tials 12 – 18. Fish it right on the bottom or on the edges. Towards evening there should be some surface activity. If it’s too high to get on take a ride up above Deer Creek to Charleston or Midway & fish that section, My brother in law loves it up there, he’s been doing well with a San Juan worm. It’s only another 20 min. from Sundance. Clint

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Any advice on the Provo River?  Going to Sundance in July for some R & R and some flyfishing.  Hear that nymphing is the best way to go.  What is the If you go the "nymphing" route, you should do ok.  The weather is fairly warm, and the river usually gets crowded really fast.

PMD emergers are hot right now.

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I try to fish it on a regular basis since I’m only 15 min. from it. We have had a late spring & the runoff is hitting it hard right now. There are still places to get on it but it’s tough fishing(fast, deep & a little dirty). If the water flow slows down it has good potential in July. I’d try; Chamois Caddis 14 – 18, Sow Bug 18 – 20, Brassies 16 – 18, Pheasant Tials 12 – 18. Fish it right on the bottom or on the edges. Towards evening there should be some surface activity. If it’s too high to get on take a ride up above Deer Creek to Charleston or Midway & fish that section, My brother in law loves it up there, he’s been doing well with a San Juan worm. It’s only another 20 min. from Sundance. Clint

Thankfully this high water misconception has curbed the number of ff’ers on the Provo lately.  This is nice as we’ve been catching anywhere from 5 to 10 fish an hour without too many neighbors.  The water is especially clear also, allowing you to see many of the fish.  This also makes for fish holding in very predictable places.  (ie slower deeper water)  The fly selection, now that’s the part that will make or break your day as well. Happy Trails and tattered flies. Curtis Fry FFFTWKISS!!!!

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Any advice on the Provo River?  Going to Sundance in July for some R & R and some flyfishing.  Hear that nymphing is the best way to go.  What is the If you go the "nymphing" route, you should do ok.  The weather is fairly warm, and the river usually gets crowded really fast. PMD emergers are hot right now.

Mike,         Can you give me a description on the PMD emerger.  I dont know if I have         ever seen one before.         Thanks

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I try to fish it on a regular basis since I’m only 15 min. from it. We have had a late spring & the runoff is hitting it hard right now. There are still places to get on it but it’s tough fishing(fast, deep & a little dirty).

I’m moving to Draper this month and have tried the Provo on several occasions.  The dirty water has perplexed me… I’m assuming it has to do with the releases from the dam upstream? With the road construction several years ago did the fishing change somewhat? If the water flow slows down it has good potential in July. I’d try; Chamois Caddis 14 – 18, Sow Bug 18 – 20, Brassies 16 – 18, Pheasant Tials 12 – 18. Fish it right on the bottom or on the edges. Towards evening there should be some surface activity. If it’s too high to get on take a ride up above Deer Creek to Charleston or Midway & fish that section, My brother in law loves it up there, he’s been doing well with a San Juan worm. It’s only another 20 min. from Sundance. Clint

I want to try the upper section myself. Any advice about access etc.? Coming from an area where my favorite waters are 4 to 5 hrs away, I am indeed excited about living close to the Provo (and Green) Trust I will bump into you on the river some day.         Wherever you go…. There you will be.

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Any advice on the Provo River?  Going to Sundance in July for some R & R and some flyfishing.  Hear that nymphing is the best way to go.  What is the If you go the "nymphing" route, you should do ok.  The weather is fairly warm, and the river usually gets crowded really fast.

The Provo is a wonderful river, but nymphs are your only hope.  However, you won’t have to worry about crowds until the 9-5 crowd gets out from work.  You won’t have *much* problem mornings or early afternoons, except for us lousy college students The weather will be hot.  Be prepared for some heat; I’d leave my neoprenes at home.  The river is also higher this year than it has been in the past, but since you are just coming for a vacation, that won’t matter to you, will it? best o’ luck, Jeff Windsor

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Question:

RE: Attractor patterns. We here in the east fish such great waters as the east branch of the croton river ( New York Suburbs) and the west branch of the delaware ( pennsylvania). These waters are so heavily fished that the trout usually will ignore everything you can throw at them that matches the hatch. When we see this happening, we usually tie on something like a parmachene belle, which is a gaudy silver, blue and red. Ive seen alot of wary rainbows fall for it when nothing else produces. Neil Ferri – New York — Neil Ferri New York

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello from Iowa-        Has anyone had experience, successful I may add, with attractor patterns such as Humpies, Trudes, any of the Wulffs, Woolly Buggers, Hare’s Ears, and the like, on trout found in such heavily hit waters as the Madison and especially the Henrys’ Fork of the Snake.  I’ve had limited success with ants and Royal Wulff’s (impressionistic of beetles I presume) on the Last Chance run on the Henrys’ and regular success with Montana Stones and the ubiquitous Elk Hair Caddis on the Madison.  Does this mirror others’ experiences on these waters or other waters of similar nature?  Are these trout truly as demanding as the mag writers make them out to be (spring creek trout notwithstanding)?        Second, it seems that while attractor patterns, especially dries and the Woolly Bugger, were in vogue several years ago (probably before my start), they have lost favor again to the small and prescise school of flies. Is this true and are my wishes to fish them going against some yuppy’s notion of true dry fly fishing?  I do love the take on an attractor pattern.                                                Tight Lines,                                                Ryan Maas P.S. Anyone passing through the Des Moines, Ames area in late spring…and willing to stoop to tackling bass? — Ryan Maas

I would agree that the Madison requires hatch matching more than any stream I know.  However, I have had luck on both the South Fork of the Snake and the Yellowstone River using a Royal Wulff during prehatch, and on days when nothing else seemed to work.  I love the Royal Wulff, and find that it is just what Lee Wulff said it was, a trout’s strawberry shortcake.  As far as other attactors, the South Fork had a spell (three or four years ago) when Double Renegades and variations on the Double R worked wonders during June. Several years ago, a video on the South Fork showed anglers slaying cuts on trudes.  I have never tried one there.  Hare’s ears work well on all of these waters, especially during the spring, and mostly for white fish.  But heh, when the trout wont hit, tight lines are tight lines. Finally, I know that creeks and smaller streams are not what you’re talking about, but attactors work incredibly well on the smaller streams, and if anyone sticks up his or her nose at your throwing a Royal Wulff on a famous river, just smile to yourself when that big brown slams it like there’s no tomorrow. GOOD LUCK!!

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Hello from Iowa-         Has anyone had experience, successful I may add, with attractor patterns such as Humpies, Trudes, any of the Wulffs, Woolly Buggers, Hare’s Ears, and the like, on trout found in such heavily hit waters as the Madison and especially the Henrys’ Fork of the Snake.  I’ve had limited success with ants and Royal Wulff’s (impressionistic of beetles I presume) on the Last Chance run on the Henrys’ and regular success with Montana Stones and the ubiquitous Elk Hair Caddis on the Madison.  Does this mirror others’ experiences on these waters or other waters of similar nature?  Are these trout truly as demanding as the mag writers make them out to be (spring creek trout notwithstanding)?         Second, it seems that while attractor patterns, especially dries and the Woolly Bugger, were in vogue several years ago (probably before my start), they have lost favor again to the small and prescise school of flies. Is this true and are my wishes to fish them going against some yuppy’s notion of true dry fly fishing?  I do love the take on an attractor pattern.                                                 Tight Lines,                                                 Ryan Maas P.S. Anyone passing through the Des Moines, Ames area in late spring…and willing to stoop to tackling bass? — Ryan Maas

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Sheeeoot yeah, attractors work on the rivers you mention.  Wulffs and trudes work great on the Madison, esp. in thhhe area between Hebgen and Quake Lakes (in my experience).  As a guide, working in and around Yellowstone Park, I use all those flies regularly. The hugest fish I hooked (and lost) last summer was on Nelson’s Spring Creek, and I hooked it on a (GASP!) Wooly Bugger dead-drifted past some weeds.  One day on the Lamar, my client caught 24 cutts on Grey and Royal Wulffs. . .in 2 hours. So don’t let any Nancy-Boy purists put down attractors.  While it’s true that hatch-matching works best when there is a hatch going on (f’rinstance, during the PMD hatches on the Lamar, no self-respecting cutt would look at a Wulff), there have been many times where some- thing big and ugly has turned a crappy day into something good. I’d rather fish a dry fly any day of the week, and I’ll often fish dry when others have given up.  However, when all else fails, buggerize them. Phil

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The three you inquire about are on my short list. The Royal Trude is perhaps my favorite dry fly,

I agree 100%, it is my #1 producer especially during caddis hatches!!! It’s only drawback is that it gets destroyed pretty easily after a few bruisers get their teeth into it.  Tie ‘em from #12 to #18.   Happy Trails,                                                Steve Jackson

                                         Quint McDonald                                          Hewlett Packard                                          Corvallis Oregon

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello from Iowa-         Has anyone had experience, successful I may add, with attractor patterns such as Humpies, Trudes, any of the Wulffs, Woolly Buggers, Hare’s Ears, and the like, on trout found in such heavily hit waters as the Madison and especially the Henrys’ Fork of the Snake.  I’ve had limited success with ants and Royal Wulff’s (impressionistic of beetles I presume) on the Last Chance run on the Henrys’ and regular success with Montana Stones and the ubiquitous Elk Hair Caddis on the Madison.  Does this mirror others’ experiences on these waters or other waters of similar nature?  Are these trout truly as demanding as the mag writers make them out to be (spring creek trout notwithstanding)?         Second, it seems that while attractor patterns, especially dries and the Woolly Bugger, were in vogue several years ago (probably before my start), they have lost favor again to the small and prescise school of flies. Is this true and are my wishes to fish them going against some yuppy’s notion of true dry fly fishing?  I do love the take on an attractor pattern.                                                 Tight Lines,                                                 Ryan Maas

Can’t speak for the Henrys’ Fork of the Snake, but trudes, humpies and wooly buggers are as productive and popular as ever here in Montana. Royal Trudes, yellow or red Humpies, and black, brown, or olive Wooly Buggers are on my don’t leave home without list.  These patterns work for most of the summer season but the attractors are especially effective during the hopper season from the end of July through August. Wooly Buggers are best fished as streamers (of-course) and early spring is best for rainbow and fall is best for browns. I fish the Madison, Yellowstone, and Gallatin most of the year (yes, even winter) and have come to count on a short list of proven patterns. The three you inquire about are on my short list. The Royal Trude is perhaps my favorite dry fly, right up there with a modified Adams that I tie with a bright shiny blue body. As for the trout IQ level of the big three streams above…  Depends on who you talk to. Certain areas of each river get alot of fishing pressure and there are days when nothing much is happening.  It is doublely satisfying when I can rise to the challenge and land a beautiful 17" brown from beneath a bridge that gets a daily mix of dogs, kids, winch and cable fishermen, and rafters.                                                 Happy Trails,                                                 Steve Jackson

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