Question:

These thoughtful posts from Tara are just too good to allow to fade from usenet. Since Tara set them not to be archived, I’ve copied them here to protect them for posterity. MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Hogwasher/2.6.1 (Macintosh) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.national- parks,rec.backcountry,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly,alt.wolves X-No-Archive: yes Lines: 73 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.226.237.31 X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1023508397 209.226.237.31 (Fri, 07 Jun 2002 23:53:17 EDT) Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com!newsfeeds-atl2!news- out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onv oy.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!webster!nf1.bellglobal.c om!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: usenetserver.com rec.outdoors.national-parks:143809 rec.backcountry:254050 rec.outdoors.fishing.fly:328244 alt.wolves:135493 atl1.usenetserver.com) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bingo! Yippee!  You win! So youa re actively and vigorously working at protecting the Tom Benos of the world. Ya think?  Well, I guess I’m not going to get too worked up over it.  I mean, how many of them can there be?  I don’t believe I’ve ever encountered the name Beno before……I’d be much surprised if there’s more than a couple dozen Tom Benos on the planet.  And, given how unlikely it is that they share much more than a name, I suspect that giving all of them my active and vigorous support would pretty much be a wash in the long run, don’t you? Thanks for the support! Uh…..you’re welcome…….I guess…….um…….are you a Tom Beno? E-mail his ISP and complain about the illegal and unconstitutional harassment techniques of the far right extremists trying to take away his right of free speech! Rise up and smite the oppressors!  Dirty filthy cowards, all of them… Dan Evidence be damned!  I’m gonna go way out on a limb here and give long odds that you and the rest of the Tom Benos think you got something to say. Wolfgang whattya say boys and girls……who wants to win a shiny new nickel?      :)

Reading all of this – all of this – I am overwhelmed with the sheer pettiness of all of you. ALL of you.  What a waste of time, what a waste of lives. Do none of you have nothing better to do with your time.  Do any of you ever stand back and look at what you write and actually see yourselves. "I’ll do what I want because my way is the right way. And I’ll do what is right because you are wrong!" "And I’ll fix you, ha ha!"  Do you not see that all of you are right and all of you are at the same time wrong?  Nah, you don’t. Your attitude, both sides, is why we have the mess we do.  This is why this world, it’s politics and it’s results are, and continue to be a mess   This is not the way to clean it up or change it. It’s only a way to perpetuate it. I sit back and look at this and I see that Tom, at least has a cause, a purpose and we need that. We need crusaders. But when it becomes a matter of oneupmanship or one of school yard childishness, there is no hope of change. What to do?  Has anyone ever known what to to. I sometimes think it’s simply going to be a struggle forever.   In the history of the world the only ones who have truly changed anything are those who have always been unwilling to resort to the tactics I see here. You, all of you are the grain of sand that is the universe. What kind of universe do you want it to be. Tara Just my 2 cents. MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Hogwasher/2.6.1 (Macintosh) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.national- parks,rec.backcountry,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly,alt.wolves X-No-Archive: yes Lines: 112 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.208.65.191 X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1023515054 216.208.65.191 (Sat, 08 Jun 2002 01:44:14 EDT) Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com!newsfeeds-atl2!btnet- peer1!btnet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn !webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.b ellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: usenetserver.com rec.outdoors.national-parks:143811 rec.backcountry:254061 rec.outdoors.fishing.fly:328261 alt.wolves:135495 atl1.usenetserver.com) Tom is not a crusader, he’s a nuisance. I’m sure that you also welcome into your home every person that has a religous message to share. And isn’t that the ultimate crusade?

Ahhh, Jeff, notice how you searched for and of course, found the one thing you could find to perpetuate and continue the madness. And also notice (you won’t, however), how you brought it into a new twist to perpetuate the argument.  But, I’m not arguing, and I will not continue (no matter what idiotic responses come from what I’ve said) to post here anymore on this topic. Tara Bye buy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bingo! Yippee!  You win! So youa re actively and vigorously working at protecting the Tom Benos of the world. Ya think?  Well, I guess I’m not going to get too worked up over it.  I mean, how many of them can there be?  I don’t believe I’ve ever encountered the name Beno before……I’d be much surprised if there’s more than a couple dozen Tom Benos on the planet.  And, given how unlikely it is that they share much more than a name, I suspect that giving all of them my active and vigorous support would pretty much be a wash in the long run, don’t you? Thanks for the support! Uh…..you’re welcome…….I guess…….um…….are you a Tom Beno? E-mail his ISP and complain about the illegal and unconstitutional harassment techniques of the far right extremists trying to take away his right of free speech! Rise up and smite the oppressors!  Dirty filthy cowards, all of them… Dan Evidence be damned!  I’m gonna go way out on a limb here and give long odds that you and the rest of the Tom Benos think you got something to say. Wolfgang whattya say boys and girls……who wants to win a shiny new nickel?      :) Reading all of this – all of this – I am overwhelmed with the sheer pettiness of all of you. ALL of you.  What a waste of time, what a waste of lives. Do none of you have nothing better to do with your time.  Do any of you ever stand back and look at what you write and actually see yourselves. "I’ll do what I want because my way is the right way. And I’ll do what is right because you are wrong!" "And I’ll fix you, ha ha!"  Do you not see that all of you are right and all of you are at the same time wrong?   Nah, you

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Dang!  You know, I think she’s right.

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Yeah, she may be right, but in the end, isn’t her responding to them just more of the same?  And isn’t my response to her responding to them just more of the same? …Whoa, too much thinking makes Kurt’s head spin.  I’m going to go sit down now.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dang!  You know, I think she’s right.

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Question:

I am planning a trip to the Outer Banks of NC in August, probably staying on Cedar Island and boating over to the back of the core banks where I would like to do some fly fishing. My fly fishing experience is limited to cold water trout streams. I have no saltwater fly fishing experience, and I have not visited the Outer Banks before. Is my plan reasonable? Is the western side of the national seashore good for fly fishing? Are the waters around Cedar Island good for fly fishing? What species of fish can I expect to catch in this area on flies? What flies are good for use in this area? Thank you, Bob

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I am planning a trip to the Outer Banks of NC in August, probably staying on Cedar Island and boating over to the back of the core banks where I would like to do some fly fishing. My fly fishing experience is limited to cold water trout streams. I have no saltwater fly fishing experience, and I have not visited the Outer Banks before. Is my plan reasonable? Is the western side of the national seashore good for fly fishing? Are the waters around Cedar Island good for fly fishing? What species of fish can I expect to catch in this area on flies? What flies are good for use in this area? Thank you, Bob

FWIW, if I were you I would consider hiring a guide for a day or two. Your trout equipment is going to be unsuitable in the salt due to salt water corrosion problems. In addition it is not uncommon to hook fish that run a long way, and without sufficient backing, you are likely to lose a fly line as well as ruin a reel.  A guide will help you with your casting which probably is going to be in windy conditions. Casting is much different in salt water conditions. I have no monetary connections with guides, but some of the best money I have ever spent was for guides when I was visiting in unfamiliar places and fishing unknown waters. Give ROFF a report when you get back.

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Try contacting Gordon Churchill, a local guide in that area at http://www.geocities.com/capt_gordon/ .  He’s a good fellow and has always provided good information whether you hire him or not.   Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am planning a trip to the Outer Banks of NC in August, probably staying on Cedar Island and boating over to the back of the core banks where I would like to do some fly fishing. My fly fishing experience is limited to cold water trout streams. I have no saltwater fly fishing experience, and I have not visited the Outer Banks before. Is my plan reasonable? Is the western side of the national seashore good for fly fishing? Are the waters around Cedar Island good for fly fishing? What species of fish can I expect to catch in this area on flies? What flies are good for use in this area? Thank you, Bob

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I am planning a trip to the Outer Banks of NC in August, probably staying on Cedar Island and boating over to the back of the core banks where I would like to do some fly fishing. My fly fishing experience is limited to cold water trout streams. I have no saltwater fly fishing experience, and I have not visited the Outer Banks before. Is my plan reasonable? Is the western side of the national seashore good for fly fishing? Are the waters around Cedar Island good for fly fishing? What species of fish can I expect to catch in this area on flies? What flies are good for use in this area? Thank you, Bob

http://www.google.de/search?q=NC+Cedar+Banks+fishing&hl=de&meta= Turned up over five thousand hits.  Must be at least a few with exactly the info you want. TL MC

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Purely out of curiosity, I checked a few, sounds pretty good. http://www.coastalguide.com/packet/fishing01.htm http://www.icw-net.com/fish.htm http://www.outerbanks.com/fishing/fishcal.htm http://www.ufish.com/regions/_nc.htm#COASTAL These were all from the first hit. Wish I was going with you. TL MC

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Thank you everyone for the replies. I E-mailed Capt. Churchill and am going to give serious thought to hiring him. Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Try contacting Gordon Churchill, a local guide in that area at http://www.geocities.com/capt_gordon/ .  He’s a good fellow and has always provided good information whether you hire him or not.   Tom I am planning a trip to the Outer Banks of NC in August, probably staying on Cedar Island and boating over to the back of the core banks where I would like to do some fly fishing. My fly fishing experience is limited to cold water trout streams. I have no saltwater fly fishing experience, and I have not visited the Outer Banks before. Is my plan reasonable? Is the western side of the national seashore good for fly fishing? Are the waters around Cedar Island good for fly fishing? What species of fish can I expect to catch in this area on flies? What flies are good for use in this area? Thank you, Bob

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Question:

There is a new website for people interested in countryside pursuits, including fly fishing.  Its undfer development and need input from fellow fly fishers.  Why not take a look and add your input http://www.countrysidepursuits.co.uk

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Countryside pursuits is a web site dedicated for countryside pursuits in the UK. Its under development and need of interaction for fellow game shooters.  So why not take a look and add your input to the site. http://www.countrysidepursuits.co.uk

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Question:

I’ll see what I can do, PSU tickets between the 20s are hard to find. I’d love to go to any PSU home game this year, and if I can get tickets I’ll contact you.  How much prior notice do you require?

I’m workin’ on a ticket in the visitors section from this end as well. Unfortunately, I’m well down the pecking order of Illini alums and probably won’t get one. If I do, I’d be very grateful and appreciative of the opportunity to have you show me some of those great PA streams around the ballgame. If we can pull this off, we’ll need to hijack Mark Faulkner and force him to fish with us. As far as prior notice, … hell, I don’t know, depends on what’s happening at the time. Don’t go to any expense on my account, the game will be on the tube anyway. — Ken Fortenberry

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This has the makings of an miniclave in central PA.  Let’s work on some tickets and see what happens.  After the so-called "Fighting Illini" get sent back to the playpen by the Nittany Lions – led by the quarterback now proudly known as the "defendant" – we can get to some serious fishing. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m workin’ on a ticket in the visitors section from this end as well. Unfortunately, I’m well down the pecking order of Illini alums and probably won’t get one. If I do, I’d be very grateful and appreciative of the opportunity to have you show me some of those great PA streams around the ballgame. If we can pull this off, we’ll need to hijack Mark Faulkner and force him to fish with us.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll see what I can do, PSU tickets between the 20s are hard to find.  I’d love to go to any PSU home game this year, and if I can get tickets I’ll contact you.  How much prior notice do you require? I’m workin’ on a ticket in the visitors section from this end as well. Unfortunately, I’m well down the pecking order of Illini alums and probably won’t get one. If I do, I’d be very grateful and appreciative of the opportunity to have you show me some of those great PA streams around the ballgame. If we can pull this off, we’ll need to hijack Mark Faulkner and force him to fish with us. As far as prior notice, … hell, I don’t know, depends on what’s happening at the time. Don’t go to any expense on my account, the game will be on the tube anyway. — Ken Fortenberry

Well, I had been looking for PSU tickets for any home game already.  If I can get them, I’m sure that I will be able to find somebody around here that would want to go with me if you are unavailable.  The most available tickets are always in the student section (of course) which is at the wrong end of the field for an Illini fan…  Usually you can find tickets in the newspaper or on eBay in the week or two immediately prior to the game.  Nothing personal, but a game vs. Illinios isn’t like a game against Michigan or OSU so finding tickets may not be impossible. Tom perhaps we should be looking for the Big Ten newsgroup? Before you buy.

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So I’m hoping that one of you ROFFians can help me…  Or maybe you just know somebody who might.  Anybody who fishes in the Centre/Clinton/Lycoming county region who would be willing to throw away a few hours of their time giving me a few pointers would be a blessing.  Hell, I’ll bring the food AND the beer. Thanks, Tom Before you buy.

Tom It just so happens that I will spending Labor Day weekend at my cabin along Slate Run in Lycoming County. I will arriving on Thur the 31st and departing Mon morning Sep 4. Slate Run is a beautiful wild trout stream in a remote wilderness setting as are Cedar Run and Young Womens Creek all near by. Maybe we could hookup sometime over the weekend for a little dry fly fishing. I probaby dry fly fish 95% of the time so maybe I could help you out a little there. Drop me a email message if you are interested. We would have to pick a time and place to meet before hand as there is no phone in the cabin. John Mimnall Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll see what I can do, PSU tickets between the 20s are hard to find. I’d love to go to any PSU home game this year, and if I can get tickets I’ll contact you.  How much prior notice do you require? I’m workin’ on a ticket in the visitors section from this end as well. Unfortunately, I’m well down the pecking order of Illini alums and probably won’t get one. If I do, I’d be very grateful and appreciative of the opportunity to have you show me some of those great PA streams around the ballgame. If we can pull this off, we’ll need to hijack Mark Faulkner and force him to fish with us. — Ken Fortenberry

Hell Ken you could probaby be on the stream by halftime as the soon to be convict PSU quarterback will probaby run circles around the Illini defense and there would be no question as to the outcome of the game by that time. Before you buy.

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Nothing personal, but a game vs. Illinios isn’t

like a game against Michigan or OSU so finding tickets may not be impossible.< Going at cut rate prices, one would assume. <g

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It just so happens that I will spending Labor Day weekend at my cabin along Slate Run in Lycoming County… Slate Run is a beautiful wild trout stream in a remote wilderness setting as are Cedar Run and Young Womens Creek all near by.

John, John, John. I’m afraid you might have just inadvertently invited one Anthony Wayne Harrison, Esquire to be a permanent house guest at your cabin. Tell me–how far exactly is it to Young Womens from your cabin? –Steve

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 Nothing personal, but a game vs. Illinios isn’t like a game against Michigan or OSU

    bwaaaaahaaaa!     truth always rings clear, even though the sound might be painful to certain ears. wayno

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It just so happens that I will spending Labor Day weekend at my cabin along Slate Run in Lycoming County… Slate Run is a beautiful wild trout stream in a remote wilderness setting as are Cedar Run and Young Womens Creek all near by. John, John, John. I’m afraid you might have just inadvertently invited one Anthony Wayne Harrison, Esquire to be a permanent house guest at your cabin. Tell me–how far exactly is it to Young Womens from your cabin? –Steve

No need for Mr. Harrison’s help as I already saw to it that all the young women along the creek are ‘changed’ and only have eye’s for me. Actually I think the creek was named after a young indian girl that was lost along it. Before you buy.

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Nothing personal, but a game vs. Illinios isn’t like a game against Michigan or OSU so finding tickets may not be impossible. Going at cut rate prices, one would assume. <g     bwaaaaahaaaa!     truth always rings clear, even though the sound might be painful to certain ears.

All this Illini razzing is music to my ears, especially from the Buckeye and Tarheel contingent who happened to be THE major source of college football Laphroaig last season. — Ken Fortenberry

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No need for Mr. Harrison’s help as I already saw to it that all the young women along the creek are ‘changed’ and only have eye’s for me.

        pretty work.  so many creeks; so little time. wayno

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All this Illini razzing is music to my ears, especially from the

Buckeye and Tarheel contingent who happened to be THE major source of college football Laphroaig last season. < Hey, Wayne.  Did you reseal your bottle the way I advised?  Gives Laphroaig a decent flavor.  0

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All this Illini razzing is music to my ears, especially from the Buckeye and Tarheel contingent who happened to be THE major source of college football Laphroaig last season. —

"college football Laphroaig"??? isn’t that a team in texas?  no wait that’s the horned phroaigs…  oh hell, can we at least have a better quality bet this year fellas??  with Laphroaig as the trophy, it’s no wonder the heels lost and wayno paid up…who’d want that cadaver juice?  ’cept ken, of course… <G jeff

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"college football Laphroaig"??? isn’t that a team in texas?  no wait that’s the horned phroaigs…  

Maybe you’re thinking of a different Forty, the north Dallas one perhaps? <g — Charlie…

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"college football Laphroaig"??? isn’t that a team in texas?  no wait that’s the horned phroaigs…  oh hell, can we at least have a better quality bet this year fellas??  with Laphroaig as the trophy, it’s no wonder the heels lost and wayno paid up…who’d want that cadaver juice?  ’cept ken, of course… <G

The Laphroaig is my winnings. If the Tarheels ever put together a football squad, I’d owe Wayno some horribly expensive chardonnay. If the Buckeyes were to get real lucky I’d have to get Harry a bottle of Cardhu. In the spirit of "you can never have too much Laphroaig" I should find a sucker^H^H^H^H^H^H  football fan of the Nittany Lion persuasion to swindle^H^H^H^H^H^H^H  bet with this year. — Ken Fortenberry

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Does anyone know what happened to my Barnoculars? Lost them sometime in college in California early 80’s… absolute necessity for college football where they frisk you as you enter… as a Democrat who encourages diversity, I’d put single malt in one half, bourbon in the other…

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I am, I guess, a newbie in many respects. I’ve owned a fly rod since 1990 or so, but

Hell, I’ll bring the food AND the beer. Tom

 Hell, if you bring the food and beer…….well, I’ll be there. I live a few hours away from Happy Valley  but try to get out that way as often as time allows. My last trip was probably a month ago so I’m due for another any weekend. Around Oct 9 I have five days free and plan on fishing/drinking my time away. Depending on my $$$ flow, I will be floating the Deleware, trying my luck at Striper fishing, searching for Salmon or camping at Hemlock Acres, which is in your neck of the woods. I’d be more than happy to give you a few pointers if I’m out that way. Have you tried Flyfishers Paradise? There’s a spot there I call the trough. Its the channel of water that flows out of the hatchery ponds. There are *big* fish there year round sipping on midges. The day before Christmas I was there- 24 degrees out and they were feeding! I’ve taught several of my friends how to midge fish there. My friend Phil caught his first fish on a fly there- a 17 inch bow on a sz. 26 midge. Its a good place to learn because the fish are immune to human presence. You can cast to them all day and they dont move. The key is to use small flies. Sz. 22 or smaller. And as long as I’m there to teach someone else, I don’t feel guilty about hooking a few myself  If I head that way, I’ll drop you a line. Tight Lines… Matt M.

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I am, I guess, a newbie in many respects. I’ve owned a fly rod since 1990 or so, but have only begun fly fishing (almost) exclusively this summer.  I grew up here in central PA (Clinton Co.) fishing with spinners and salmon eggs.  I can usually catch trout quite successfully in PA streams with a Panther Martin spinner…  This is my first summer fly fishing in PA. I am woefully inept with dry flies, 95% of my fly fishing experience being in Alaska, where the notorious ‘egg hatch’ is the only hatch worth worrying about.  Of the remaining 5%, 4% is pond fishing with small poppers for bass/crappie/bream in NC and 1% has been this summer here in central PA.  Due to this experience my casting is awful (I can roll cast REAL GOOD) and I have no idea which flies to use when. So far, my luck with dry flies has been not so great.  I caught two chubs a couple of weeks ago, and I’ve gone through several leaders and plenty of tippet material trying to catch a trout.  I was surprised by the chubs–I never even considered the possibility of catching a chub on a dry fly.  Or catching chubs at all, for that matter. I only know two people that fly fish, and neither of them very seriously.  One, my aunt’s husband, probably hasn’t fished in 5 years or more.  He may have been fairly adept at it at one time but he no longer seems to have any interest.  The other, the husband of a friend of the same aunt, hasn’t been fly fishing for very long and he is strictly a nymph fisherman. So I’m hoping that one of you ROFFians can help me…  Or maybe you just know somebody who might.  Anybody who fishes in the Centre/Clinton/Lycoming county region who would be willing to throw away a few hours of their time giving me a few pointers would be a blessing.  Hell, I’ll bring the food AND the beer. Just to keep you from digging up my ‘ROFFians: who the hell are these folks?’ post, I am: 33 years old. White. Male. 5′11". 240lbs. (I carry it well, ha ha) Married. (with child, a 15 month old girl) Employed. (Systems Consultant, i.e. glorified computer sales guy) Homeowner. (100-year old Victorian house that requires a LOT of time) I can listen to almost anything, music-wise, but prefer rock-n-roll. I don’t have the most flexible schedule (see above), but I am available practically every weekend.  Saturday or Sunday–no preference here. Penn’s Creek, Spring Creek, Fishing Creek, Kettle Creek, Pine Creek, wherever.  Let’s go fishing! Thanks, Tom Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …  Hell, I’ll bring the food AND the beer. FREE beer ?! Just to fish with you ? Don’t know which of us will get there first, me or Waldo. If it turns out to be Waldo, FER THE LUV OF GAWD, HIDE THE BEER ! If you let Waldo have the beer BEFORE fishing, you gotta drag him around by his groaty old waders all day. He’s a MUCH better fishing partner if you make him wait til the end of the day to start chugging beers. Hmmmmm, my calendar shows that the Illini are scheduled to whup the snot out of the Nittany Lions on Oct 21. If you were to fix me up with a decent seat, say between the 20’s, on Saturday, I would gladly teach you more than a few bad dry fly fishing habits on Sunday. — Ken Fortenberry

I’ll see what I can do, PSU tickets between the 20s are hard to find. I’d love to go to any PSU home game this year, and if I can get tickets I’ll contact you.  How much prior notice do you require? Tom Before you buy.

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…  Hell, I’ll bring the food AND the beer.

FREE beer ?! Just to fish with you ? Don’t know which of us will get there first, me or Waldo. If it turns out to be Waldo, FER THE LUV OF GAWD, HIDE THE BEER ! If you let Waldo have the beer BEFORE fishing, you gotta drag him around by his groaty old waders all day. He’s a MUCH better fishing partner if you make him wait til the end of the day to start chugging beers. Hmmmmm, my calendar shows that the Illini are scheduled to whup the snot out of the Nittany Lions on Oct 21. If you were to fix me up with a decent seat, say between the 20’s, on Saturday, I would gladly teach you more than a few bad dry fly fishing habits on Sunday.   — Ken Fortenberry

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If you let Waldo have the beer BEFORE fishing, you gotta drag him around by his groaty old waders all day.

I always wondered how you spell "groaty". Regards, Jeff

Response:

If you let Waldo have the beer BEFORE fishing, you gotta drag him around by his groaty old waders all day. I always wondered how you spell "groaty".

G  R  O  A  T  Y Groady, on the other hand, is spelled with a d. Wolfgang W  O  L  F  G  A  N  G

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am, I guess, a newbie in many respects. I’ve owned a fly rod since 1990 or so, but have only begun fly fishing (almost) exclusively this summer.  I grew up here in central PA (Clinton Co.) fishing with spinners and salmon eggs.  I can usually catch trout quite successfully in PA streams with a Panther Martin spinner…  This is my first summer fly fishing in PA. I am woefully inept with dry flies, 95% of my fly fishing experience being in Alaska, where the notorious ‘egg hatch’ is the only hatch worth worrying about.  Of the remaining 5%, 4% is pond fishing with small poppers for bass/crappie/bream in NC and 1% has been this summer here in central PA.  Due to this experience my casting is awful (I can roll cast REAL GOOD) and I have no idea which flies to use when. So far, my luck with dry flies has been not so great.  I caught two chubs a couple of weeks ago, and I’ve gone through several leaders and plenty of tippet material trying to catch a trout.  I was surprised by the chubs–I never even considered the possibility of catching a chub on a dry fly.  Or catching chubs at all, for that matter. I only know two people that fly fish, and neither of them very seriously.  One, my aunt’s husband, probably hasn’t fished in 5 years or more.  He may have been fairly adept at it at one time but he no longer seems to have any interest.  The other, the husband of a friend of the same aunt, hasn’t been fly fishing for very long and he is strictly a nymph fisherman. So I’m hoping that one of you ROFFians can help me…  Or maybe you just know somebody who might.  Anybody who fishes in the Centre/Clinton/Lycoming county region who would be willing to throw away a few hours of their time giving me a few pointers would be a blessing.  Hell, I’ll bring the food AND the beer. Just to keep you from digging up my ‘ROFFians: who the hell are these folks?’ post, I am: 33 years old. White. Male. 5′11". 240lbs. (I carry it well, ha ha) Married. (with child, a 15 month old girl) Employed. (Systems Consultant, i.e. glorified computer sales guy) Homeowner. (100-year old Victorian house that requires a LOT of time) I can listen to almost anything, music-wise, but prefer rock-n-roll. I don’t have the most flexible schedule (see above), but I am available practically every weekend.  Saturday or Sunday–no preference here. Penn’s Creek, Spring Creek, Fishing Creek, Kettle Creek, Pine Creek, wherever.  Let’s go fishing! Thanks, Tom Before you buy.

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I am, I guess, a newbie in many respects. I’ve owned a fly rod since 1990 or so, but have only begun fly fishing (almost) exclusively this summer.  I grew up here in central PA (Clinton Co.) fishing with spinners and salmon eggs.  I can usually catch trout quite successfully in PA streams with a Panther Martin spinner…  This is my first summer fly fishing in PA.

(woes and travails of the flyfisher snipped) Tom – Contact me be email and I’ll see if I can help.  A bit limited in my activities these days – at least for the short term – but let’s see. Mark Faulkner

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Question:

I’m a farmer from the midwest, and I have seen this behavior many times before.  In a hoglot (it can happen with cattle also) when one pig is picked on and shows too much weakness, often many other pigs will jump in and attack it.  They will often continue until they kill the weak pig. Now the article is gone so I cannot even read it, much less respond to it.  Usually when something stinks, it needs to be aired out.

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FAOL made a public relations mistake by censoring opposing points of view in the public message forums and guest book.

Exactly right. I have been hearing a lot about how MC ‘censored’ Ole Rupe’s article when, in fact, FAOL censored any and all opposing comments, and based on Deanna’s reply to MC, she still doesn’t see why this was wrong. If opposing views had been allowed from the beginning, this whole debate would have been conducted on FAOL, where it belonged. Just imagine if Time magazine, for instance, published this article and refused to acknowledge any opposing views, but published a weak disclaimer a few issues later. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down" ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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Geez, bc, the anti-defamation league? Isn’t that overkill?   I don’t know why any responsible publisher (even on the net) would publish such crap but I guess I would just desub.  Seems like everbody wants to censor.  What a pain in the ass.

He incited killing people based on race.   Funniest thing, the author apparently doesn’t know anything about his subject, first-hand.  "If I lived" kinda makes you wonder about what he really would do if he did live there.  My guess would be hide under a rock.

He would be the last person I would invite on a hunting trip bc.

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Folks Racists and their closet brethren are uniformly cowards and depend on easy prey and a wimpy defense. When they get challenged they generally run for cover. When they get their ass kicked they cry foul. When they are on top they kill and incite others to kill.  Civilized people who refuse to accept the inconvenience of the fight are walking shaky ground. Anyone feeling sorry for these assholes might try to consider how  Native American kids who accessed Ole Rupe’s racist shit felt. One of the most important lessons of the 20th Century is that racists and Nazis will use the hood at night, the gas chamber when they can get away with it and a cynical intellectualized stance when it suits them, and further, that the only effective way to fight them is to make them pay a high price for their bullshit. Good riddance, F*** Rupe and the horse he rode in on Dave

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Why don’t you just email the author and ask for a copy?<

Who the fuck is the author?   And that’s not the point, anyway.  However, valiant ROFFians have provided me with this "tempest in a teapot"  piece of shit. Waste of good bandwidth to even discuss it.

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I certainly have no tolerance for censorship. Had I been able to read the article perhaps I would have reacted differently, but thanks to all you "right thinkers" I do not have that opportunity. Expressing an opinion and attempting to force other expressions off the net are two different things.  I trust you can see that.

I am not condoning censorship.  FAOL made the decision to publish the article unedited in its original form.  The article would have been just as effective with out the racial overtones.  FAOL made a public relations mistake by censoring opposing points of view in the public message forums and guest book.  It was only after this censorship took place, did I start my letter campaign making sponsors and organizations like the Anti-Defamation League aware of that article. bc.

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It was only after this censorship took

place, did I start my letter campaign making sponsors and organizations like the Anti-Defamation League aware of that article.< Geez, bc, the anti-defamation league?   Isn’t that overkill?  I don’t know why any responsible publisher (even on the net) would publish such crap but I guess I would just desub.  Seems like everbody wants to censor.  What a pain in the ass. Funniest thing, the author apparently doesn’t know anything about his subject, first-hand.  "If I lived" kinda makes you wonder about what he really would do if he did live there.  My guess would be hide under a rock.

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Why don’t you just email the author and ask for a copy?< Who the fuck is the author?   And that’s not the point, anyway.  However, valiant ROFFians have provided me with this "tempest in a teapot"  piece of shit. Waste of good bandwidth to even discuss it.

I believe the whole thing started because Mike didn’t want articles he had written in the same ‘publication’ as that one, which is his right as an author. You were complaining that the result of his actions deprived you of your opportunity to read the article. FWIW. — Charlie…

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I believe the whole thing started because Mike didn’t want articles he

had written in the same ‘publication’ as that one, which is his right as an author. You were complaining that the result of his actions deprived you of your opportunity to read the article. FWIW.< In spite of the recent Ct of Appeals decision, whether or not it’s his right is still up in the air IMO.  But yeah, I was complaining about that.   Now that I’ve read it, I wish I had had the opportunity to read it BEFORE I got into this thread.  And that’s the closest thing to an apology anyone is going to get from me. <g

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Isn’t that overkill?  I don’t know why any responsible publisher (even on the net) would publish such crap but I guess I would just desub.  Seems like everbody wants to censor.  What a pain in the ass.

Good point Harry. I raised a stink precisely because I do appreciate FAOL and have no desire to "unsubscribe". If the publication were of no value and little read, there would have been no outcry. I said as much to Deanna in reply to an email, I hope she takes it to heart. — Ken Fortenberry

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I do not regret any of my actions, and would do the same thing again if necessary.  I do regret the damage caused to the site, or to people connected with it, but this is in no way my responsibility.  This is purely the result of their own actions. The decision to close is up to the publishers alone, and I have no influence in the matter.

Mike certainly doesn’t need validation from me, but I do agree with the way he handled the whole mess. He removed himself from a publication he didn’t agree with, and told people why. The situation got a bit excessive, but the publisher’s actions and responses seemed to be as bizarre as the author’s, including shutting down the site and the ‘enjoy your victory’ bullshit. Sounds like one bad association (Rupe, Deanna, the public, and Mike) just waiting to flame out…and it did. — Jeff Cook http://www.cookstudios.com Washington DC area

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What’s with this "closure" of FAOL? Does that mean they’re shutting it down altogether? Why? Is this a case of the publisher "eating worms"? Will she have second thoughts? Or have all her sponsors deserted her? Tune in at 11. Seriously, folks, this is what they call a perverse result. I don’t think anyone in ROFF who was offended by the article wanted FAOL to cease to exist. Maybe a letter-writing campaign to their ex-sponsors along these lines would be called for: "I am satisfied by FAOL’s apology and retraction of the offensive article. Please continue your sponsorship of this fine web site." Not that it will do much good. One more thing. Before you start letter-writing campaigns to sponsors when you see something you don’t like on an otherwise excellent website, think about perverse effects. Wait at least of few days. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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HR, Like a spoiled little boy, he demanded that they return his ball.  If you don’t do what I want, I’ll take my ball (those precious "articles") and go home.

The analogy to the spoiled little boy and his ball is something of a stretch.  Mike’s contributions were more than a ball.  They could easily be construed as an endorsement of the site and, once the site stepped over a line to which Mike is sensitive, it’s understandable that Mike would no longer want his name associated with that site. Thanks to Mike and others of his ilk, I have not read the article.  

Mike and his ilk aren’t the only problem, here.  As I understand it, their opposing views were censored before they took additional steps. We can now only speculate how things might have turned out had opposing views been given prompt and equally prominent exposure. But even if I had, and found it racist,  I would not have demanded it’s removal.

I also wish the whole affair had been handled differently.  You may recall that I was one who opposed Mr. G’s remarks about Indians/fishing on ROFF.

Sorry.  I didn’t see those posts… But noooo, apparently I and others are not to be allowed that privilege.

It doesn’t seem possible that you believe the site in question is/was the only place on earth you could read that article.  Assuming Rupe is willing, it may be posted elsewhere.  You might even hunt Rupe up and request a copy if you’re as passionate as you sound about wanting to read it yourself.  It might even be that one of the article’s antagonists grabbed a copy and could email it to you.  But you gotta ask. The CENSORS have had their way.

I’m not arguing that point.  As I said before, I had concerns about the "censorship" aspect of the issue.  Censorship, though, isn’t always a dirty word.  You could say that I censored Larry Flint by keeping Hustler Magazine out of my house.  There were kids around. Was that kind of "censorship" a bad thing? We’ve long had laws on the books to discourage uncivil speech in public places.  It hasn’t been that long ago that a dunked boater was busted and prosecuted for cussing up a blue streak around women and kids.  Certainly you can argue that such laws infringe freedom of speech. But when you can walk into any supermarket and run a good chance of finding yourself — and your kids — in the checkout line behind somebody wearing a tee-shirt emblazoned with all manner of obscenites — you have to wonder… If we now find ourselves so enlightened that such laws are an embarrasment, what remedies do you propose for those who prefer not to be accosted by uncivil speech?  Are we to reduce them to staying indoors and keeping their mouths shut?  If that’s the answer, haven’t we censored them? One of my points to which you didn’t respond was the issue of all of us using our influence to affect the world around us.  What I’m wondering about is something like this: Remember when the Exxon Valdez ran aground?  Remember Exxon’s grudging responses?  Suppose somebody had succeeded in motivating a large number of Exxon customers to protest by buying their petrol elsewhere. Would that have been dirty pool or economic terrorism? Don’t us mere citizens have a right to prod and push our world about to shape it into something we think would be better? The way I see it, freedom of speech is a door that swings both ways. That is, say what you like, but be prepared for others to respond by saying what _they_ like.  And sometimes they say it _very_ loudly. Which is what Mike did. Wes Peterson LexCraft Data Services

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I have always had a pretty good opinion of you Mike but I must say that I understand now why you live in Germany.  Who the fuck put you in charge of anything, much less in charge of deciding what should and should not appear on the net?  You have come out of this looking like a pretentious asshole IMO. But now I guess you can write some of your famous doggerel and everything will be all right.

Blaine, First of all, country of origin as nothing to do with expressing you’re own point of view. Mike did not put himself in charge of anything.  He has the legal right to express his opinion.  The publishers of the site made a business decision to put that article unedited on their commercial site.  The article would have been just as effective without those comments. When opposing points of view were expressed, they were quickly censored and removed from the public areas of the site.  Their justification was that they were off topic and inflammatory. If I go to a bookstore and pick up the latest issue of a fly fishing magazine, I can make a fair assumption that the articles enclosed will contain material relevant to the sport.  That the articles will not be intertwined with racial comments, incitement to kill someone and that 30/06 rifle rounds is inexpensive.  The same assumption should be made of an online magazine dedicated to fly-fishing. As far as I am concerned the staff of FAOL could have handled the entire situation better. The article in its original form had no business being on a commercial venue like FAOL. Based on the responses that I have received from sponsors when I sent out my email, I could surmise that they agree.   You and FAOL lack one thing: tolerance bc.

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Presumably you think its OK for people to voice their hatred and poisonous

viewpoints, but not OK to do anything actively to oppose them ?< I have no knowledge of what was written and thanks to you and others like you, I will apparently have no opportunity to.  What I do oppose is censorship in any way shape or form.   No doubt you will live to censor another day.  And I’m glad I distressed you.  Certainly you have distressed me.

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You and FAOL lack one thing: tolerance< I certainly have no tolerance for censorship. Had I been able to read the article perhaps I would have reacted differently, but thanks to all you "right thinkers" I do not have that opportunity. Expressing an opinion and attempting to force other expressions off the net are two different things.  I trust you can see that.

Would you like a copy of it?  I kept a copy for reference. Peter

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You and FAOL lack one thing: tolerance<

I certainly have no tolerance for censorship. Had I been able to read the article perhaps I would have reacted differently, but thanks to all you "right thinkers" I do not have that opportunity. Expressing an opinion and attempting to force other expressions off the net are two different things.  I trust you can see that.

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I have no knowledge of what was written and thanks to you and others like you, I will apparently have no opportunity to.  What I do oppose is censorship in any way shape or form.   No doubt you will live to censor another day.  And I’m glad I distressed you.  Certainly you have distressed me.

Why don’t you just email the author and ask for a copy? — Charlie…

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Would you like a copy of it?  I kept a copy for reference.<

Thanks, Peter but Christian sent me one.   Is THIS really what all the fuss is about? "With regard to native American fishing rights I hold the politically incorrect view that the only good Indian is a dead Indian. If I lived  where they gill netted steelhead I would be on the 6 p.m. news. Uncle Sam taught me how to remove problems at 300 meters." Stupid?  Yes.  Disgusting that someone would put this onto the net (or anyplace, for that matter)?  Absolutely.   I disagree totally with the ideas expressed there.  Would I bitch about them?  Hell yes.   Do I believe that Rupe (or whatever the hell his name is) has a right to express them.  Yes, I do.   On a fly fishing site?  While I disagree violently with him, his comments are related to fishing.  So why not?  It’s not like his ideas, however unpalatable, are apt to have the impact of, say, shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre, now are they. With all the horrible examoles of racism that we see and have seen, frankly, this appears to me to be a tempest in a teapot. There are a lot better ways of fighting evil than writing about it on the net. But then, we’re writers, not doers, eh?

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<long "final" rant snipped I have always had a pretty good opinion of you Mike but I must say that I understand now why you live in Germany.  Who the fuck put you in charge of anything, much less in charge of deciding what should and should not appear on the net?  You have come out of this looking like a pretentious asshole IMO. But now I guess you can write some of your famous doggerel and everything will be all right.

You are entitled to your opinion, good or bad.  Your insulting generalised implications of why I live where I live are unnecessary, unfortunate, unfounded, unworthy and not a little distressing. I am not in charge of anything at all. I simply voiced a perfectly normal protest at a particularly crass example of racism, in a place and under circumstances which where extremely upsetting. Your opinion of my person is also not particularly nice, but you have every right to voice it. I will doubtless survive nevertheless. Presumably you think its OK for people to voice their hatred and poisonous viewpoints, but not OK to do anything actively to oppose them ? Let

Question:

Professional Bamboo Fly Rod Builders Forum is the place.  The place to come on over and post in a first class forum anything and everything you wish to get across regarding fly fishing. Pick your subject; whatever interests you, or suggest a NEW one?   If anything, you owe it to yourselves to look.  It doesn’t cost a thing . . . to peek. (you peekers, you!) THERE IS EVEN A WHOLE ROOM JUST FOR Tim Walker aka T-Bone! Presented by: George Gehrke / American Sportsman http://gink.com/discus/index.html

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The Earth revolves around the sun, not George. If you want relief from the G-crap, ignore this thread.

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Snipped to save space: Oh?  You mean this one? Professional Bamboo Fly Rod Builders Forum is the place.  The place to come on over and post in a first class forum anything and everything you wish to get across regarding fly fishing. Pick your subject; whatever interests you, or suggest a NEW one?   If anything, you owe it to yourselves to look.  It doesn’t cost a thing . . . to peek. (you peekers, you!) THERE IS EVEN A WHOLE ROOM JUST FOR Tim Walker aka T-Bone!

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G you sir are a MORON

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G you sir are a MORON

doug knight strikes again! God!  Am I lucky or what?

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G you sir are a MORON

LOL! MrG.

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G you sir are a MORON doug knight strikes again! God!  Am I lucky or what?

No George, You are a colplete IDIOT, I don’t need a mask to bash you, You do it to yourself often enough. I have left you alone, In hope that you would return my money that I have asked for a full refund. Leave me out of your fuckin’ mess. — Doug Knight                          metalfab<atpacbell.net Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $500.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

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Question:

I’m looking for a fresh water fly fishing buddy.  I live in Fairfax county.

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OK weevee66.  You wanna fish for trout and smallmouth or are shad, carp, largemouth, catfish and other trash fish your main quarry?  When were you born and what is your real name?  Many of us posted brief Bios awhile back. Care to do the same?  Send me a private e-mail with a detailed listing of all your best secret fishing holes and we will talk.  I’m just outside of Fredericksburg. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking for a fresh water fly fishing buddy.  I live in Fairfax county.

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Question:

Eric was quick to say he thought whirling disease was a bad deal, that it undoubtedly played a significant part. But he (and others, increasingly) also pointed out that whirling disease seems to coincide with poor stream conditions: overly silted streambeds below damns or in badly cattle-tromped creeks, like lower Hound Creek and/or the Ruby.

You may have something with the contributing factors involved with WD. It seems to follow here in CO, the areas I know of that are hardest hit by WD are silted areas. Maybe silt is needed in the parasites life cycle. Anyone know if there’s been any research on this? One of the stretches of the Colorado that has lost almost all of its rainbow s under sixteen inches has numerous silty areas. It was an extremely good rainbow fishery before WD.  The remaining rainbows have been spawning successfully but are dying when young. Browns have started to fill in the void. Does anyone know if Cutts are as susceptible to WD as rainbows? Willi

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What is the current thought on taking fish that are obviously infected? Is it in any way our responsibility to kill fish that are deformed and doomed to a slow miserable death? Is there a mechanism for reporting infected fish that are caught? I have no idea what the answers to my questions should be, can anyone pipe in and clear this up for me? Ben Holmes Boulder, CO

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Sandy, I will not list your long post on why no rainbow in the Madison and is it/Isn’t it whirling disease…. just want to comment .. first of all their is an outstanding site on Whirling disease kept by the montana folks, which is easy to find with a search engine on "W… D… montana".   From this and following our local parasite problem … Piscacida (spelling???) something…. a dinoflagellant (again spelling???)…. seems they may both have some common elements… like nutrients, water flow and temperature AND the pest to make an impact…  Meaning some watersheds  without all of the other elements don’t necessarily kill fish… takes the whole package of things… might explain the logic… Anyway locally, we are Zeroing in on hog farms and chicken farms which at low water and high summer temps cause of a "bloom" and changes in the parasite and result in somewhat localized fish kills…  visit the WD site and read the stuff there…. truly first rate research …. for some good insight…. Alan E. Hoover       to quote one of my favorite authors: "Fly fishing is such great fun, it really ought to be done in bed"  John Voelker, aka Robert Traver

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It’s my understanding that trout can only be infected during the first six months of their life cycle and as long as they make it to a year they will survive even with deformities. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Silt is important in the parasites life cycle. The WD organism uses a tubifex worm as an intermediate host. It cycles between these worms and the trout. The tubifex worms are a small earthworm-like creature that occurs in silty bottoms of streams. Siltation has been identified as one major factor contributing to the incidence of whirling disease in an area. Cutthroat are susceptible. I think most salmonids are, except for coho salmon and slpake. The disease causes most damage when very young fish (newly hatched) are infected, so any species that has oyung present at the time the free-living, infective stage of the parasite is in the water is at risk. Damage decreases with  fish age since the parasite mostly destroys cartilage. Fish that are a few years old tend to be less damaged by the parasite. Eric was quick to say he thought whirling disease was a bad deal, that it undoubtedly played a significant part. But he (and others, increasingly) also pointed out that whirling disease seems to coincide with poor stream conditions: overly silted streambeds below damns or in badly cattle-tromped creeks, like lower Hound Creek and/or the Ruby. You may have something with the contributing factors involved with WD. It seems to follow here in CO, the areas I know of that are hardest hit by WD are silted areas. Maybe silt is needed in the parasites life cycle. Anyone know if there’s been any research on this? One of the stretches of the Colorado that has lost almost all of its rainbow s under sixteen inches has numerous silty areas. It was an extremely good rainbow fishery before WD.  The remaining rainbows have been spawning successfully but are dying when young. Browns have started to fill in the void. Does anyone know if Cutts are as susceptible to WD as rainbows?

– Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm

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Silt is important in the parasites life cycle. The WD organism uses a tubifex worm as an intermediate host. It cycles between these worms and the trout. The tubifex worms are a small earthworm-like creature that occurs in silty bottoms of streams. Siltation has been identified as one major factor contributing to the incidence of whirling disease in an area. Cutthroat are susceptible. I think most salmonids are, except for coho salmon and slpake. The disease causes most damage when very young fish (newly hatched) are infected, so any species that has oyung present at the time the free-living, infective stage of the parasite is in the water is at risk. Damage decreases with  fish age since the parasite mostly destroys cartilage. Fish that are a few years old tend to be less damaged by the parasite. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Eric was quick to say he thought whirling disease was a bad deal, that it undoubtedly played a significant part. But he (and others, increasingly) also pointed out that whirling disease seems to coincide with poor stream conditions: overly silted streambeds below damns or in badly cattle-tromped creeks, like lower Hound Creek and/or the Ruby. You may have something with the contributing factors involved with WD. It seems to follow here in CO, the areas I know of that are hardest hit by WD are silted areas. Maybe silt is needed in the parasites life cycle. Anyone know if there’s been any research on this? One of the stretches of the Colorado that has lost almost all of its rainbow s under sixteen inches has numerous silty areas. It was an extremely good rainbow fishery before WD.  The remaining rainbows have been spawning successfully but are dying when young. Browns have started to fill in the void. Does anyone know if Cutts are as susceptible to WD as rainbows? Willi

– Tim Lysyk http://www.telusplanet.net/public/timlysyk http://www.telusplanet.net/public/cnangler/html

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A few years ago–when the news about whirling disease in Montana’s Madison river first broke–I remember getting in    He was angry at the Montana Fish and Game. He agreed that whirling disease existed in the river, and thought it played a role in the dramatic rainbow population decline. But he thought it was a minor role, and suspected that whirling disease may well have been present for years: even during the years of plenty. He attributed the dramatic decline to a major loss of spawing habitat in Slide Inn area, where shallow spawing runs had been whiped out in a high water year some 5-6 years back….and to too many fishermen trompling the few remaining spawing beds during the early season spawn. I was pissed off at him, because I liked (still do) Dick Vincent and his cohorts at the Fish and Game department. So we exchanged poison email for a while, and then we both took a powder. spent yesterday skiing with an old friend: Eric Shores, who has been guiding the madison forever (doesn’t seem like too long ago that Eric and Randy and George and George and Paul and a host of other guides were the young interlopers, and now we’re all 40-50 or more, and the old vets, it seems). Anyway, back to the main point. Eric said "yes, it’s true" the rainbow fishing is way off up the river. But says it’s as good or better than it ever was below Varney bridge. That section of the river has always been mostly browns anyway, but there were and are plenty of good rainbows too. ..that spawn in the channels above Ennis lake. And Eric pointed out how bad the Slide Inn area looks. I can’t deny it. What once was a series of dandy little side channels below Quake Lake has been a deep-fast flood channel for years. Even more interesting is the fact that whirling disease has been discovered in a dozen or more other locations across Montana–but without the dramatic drop in rainbow populations. Eric was quick to say he thought whirling disease was a bad deal, that it undoubtedly played a significant part. But he (and others, increasingly) also pointed out that whirling disease seems to coincide with poor stream conditions: overly silted streambeds below damns or in badly cattle-tromped creeks, like lower Hound Creek and/or the Ruby.   It’s also interesting to note that it’s hard to raise money in a cattle state for stream-bank habitat improvement projects, and a hell of a lot easier to raise (big) money for researching whirling disease. I still like and respect most of the people I know at Montana Fish and Game. But I don’t necessarily swallow their line. At least not completely. Not any more. I’d like to hear what others think, especially if they think they have something new to say about this subject. —  * Center for Computational Biology    * Montana State Bozeman  (406) 994-7061  * http://www.nervana.montana.edu/~sandy */

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 It is interesting that the flow data from MT. Power at Hebgen lake is missing for the years that the Slide area was scoured by flood like flows that changed the upper river. WD was  "discovered" shortly there after. The idea that the spawning beds where washed away is not new , just not put forth as much. I do think that the flooding had a tremendous effect that has been minimized .   Harry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -A few years ago–when the news about whirling disease in Montana’s Madison river first broke–I remember getting in   He was angry at the Montana Fish and Game. He agreed that whirling disease existed in the river, and thought it played a role in the dramatic rainbow population decline. But he thought it was a minor role, and suspected that whirling disease may well have been present for years: even during the years of plenty. He attributed the dramatic decline to a major loss of spawing habitat in Slide Inn area, where shallow spawing runs had been whiped out in a high water year some 5-6 years back….and to too many fishermen trompling the few remaining spawing beds during the early season spawn. I was pissed off at him, because I liked (still do) Dick Vincent and his cohorts at the Fish and Game department. So we exchanged poison email for a while, and then we both took a powder. spent yesterday skiing with an old friend: Eric Shores, who has been guiding the madison forever (doesn’t seem like too long ago that Eric and Randy and George and George and Paul and a host of other guides were the young interlopers, and now we’re all 40-50 or more, and the old vets, it seems). Anyway, back to the main point. Eric said "yes, it’s true" the rainbow fishing is way off up the river. But says it’s as good or better than it ever was below Varney bridge. That section of the river has always been mostly browns anyway, but there were and are plenty of good rainbows too. ..that spawn in the channels above Ennis lake. And Eric pointed out how bad the Slide Inn area looks. I can’t deny it. What once was a series of dandy little side channels below Quake Lake has been a deep-fast flood channel for years. Even more interesting is the fact that whirling disease has been discovered in a dozen or more other locations across Montana–but without the dramatic drop in rainbow populations. Eric was quick to say he thought whirling disease was a bad deal, that it undoubtedly played a significant part. But he (and others, increasingly) also pointed out that whirling disease seems to coincide with poor stream conditions: overly silted streambeds below damns or in badly cattle-tromped creeks, like lower Hound Creek and/or the Ruby.   It’s also interesting to note that it’s hard to raise money in a cattle state for stream-bank habitat improvement projects, and a hell of a lot easier to raise (big) money for researching whirling disease. I still like and respect most of the people I know at Montana Fish and Game. But I don’t necessarily swallow their line. At least not completely. Not any more. I’d like to hear what others think, especially if they think they have something new to say about this subject.

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You may have something with the contributing factors involved with WD. It seems to follow here in CO, the areas I know of that are hardest hit by WD are silted areas. Maybe silt is needed in the parasites life cycle. Anyone know if there’s been any research on this? One of the stretches of the Colorado that has lost almost all of its rainbow s under sixteen inches has numerous silty areas. It was an extremely good rainbow fishery before WD.  The remaining rainbows have been spawning successfully but are dying when young. Browns have started to fill in the void. Does anyone know if Cutts are as susceptible to WD as rainbows?

Hi, The silt is the medium that supports the tubifex worms which carry the whirling disease spores.   Whenever you have whirling disease in a river you will find the biggest problem around areas with a lot of silt.  The tubifex worms carry the spores and live in the silt, the trout eat the worms, the spores infect the trout, the trout dies and spreads more of the spores, the worms feed on the decaying trout and the cycle starts all over again.  The spores do not become active until they are introduced into the trouts system.   The disease orignally came over from Europe with some infected brown trout.  It is a hatcery disease and is not naturally ocurring in the wild in the US, but is almost impossible to eliminate once it gains a foothold.  The sores can lie dormant for 30 years until they are ingested and are impervious to bleach and other cleansers which have been used in the hatchery races to try to eliminate them.  One report quoted a hatchery in Russia that was dried out for 30 years, then re-used and the fish all became infected. Montana was running a test program where they were trying to re-introduce the native cutthroat into the Madison river.  They have kept the native strain alive in a few hatcheries since in the wild both rainbows and brown trout out-compete them.  The idea was to identify some tributaries to the Madison with little or no siltation (and population of tubifex worms) and hopefully no evidence of WD.  They would plant the native Cuts in these tributaries. Cutthroat have exhibited the behavior of staying in their spawning tributaries for at least a year or two after hatching which may be the key to their survival.  Rainbows on the other hand return to the main stem much sooner after hatching.  WD attacks, deforms and kills young fish (older fish can survive an infestation) and the hope was that they would stay in the tribs long enough to escape the early infestation that can devestate rainbow populations.   By the time they return to the main stem which carries the disease, they are old enough to be able to survive it. Haven’t heard anything on this recently and lost the url of Montana’s fish and game site.  Would be worth doing a search on for more info, or perhaps someone on the ng has the url handy and will post it.                        Hope this helps,                                 Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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Question:

I’m heading to Big St. Germaine, WI (above Rhinelander, near Eagle River) in July and would like some information regarding fly fishing streams and lakes in the area.  Does anyone know if an FFF or TU chapter exists the the North Woods of Wisconsin?  Is there a shop I could contact.  How about guides in this area.  I’m a saltwater fly fisher and this will be only my second attempt at creek/stream fishing.  Any patterns that I should try in the summer months.  I’m a fairly adept tyer.  Thanks for the help.

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I’m heading to Big St. Germaine, WI (above Rhinelander, near Eagle River) in July and would like some information regarding fly fishing streams and lakes in the area.  Does anyone know if an FFF or TU chapter exists the the North Woods of Wisconsin?  Is there a shop I could contact.  How about guides in this area.  I’m a saltwater fly fisher and this will be only my second attempt at creek/stream fishing.  Any patterns that I should try in the summer months.  I’m a fairly adept tyer.  Thanks for the help.

Hmmm.  Lots of lakes.  (LOTS of lakes.)  Lots of streams.  A mixture of cold and warm water fisheries.  Take lots of Wooly Buggers in black, white, olive and dark olive.  The Wisconsin fly fishing page lists all the trout streams in the state.  There are too many lakes in the area to even start a list. My plan was to rig up with an olive WB then walk in a straight line till I hit water.  (Usually no more than 200′.) JC

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Question:

Can anyone give me any tips on what kind of containers to use while applying beads to a piece of work.  After I have them out of the baggie (where I store them in thier little plastic containers) I find that if I leave them in the little plastic containers they spill all over the place.  If I pour them out of their containers into the baggies and then try to get one at a time…well lets just say my carpet is well beaded.:-)  Any suggestions greatly appreciated. TIA Doris

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I keep my beads in camera film containers.  When I’m beading, I put them on the top lid of a plastic shoebox.  The higher sides keep the beads from rolling off and I don’t have to put the beads away at night because I can just sit the shoebox on the floor with the lid until morning. Pamela CALVIN: "You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don’t          help." HOBBES: "Well, you’ve done all you can do." Pamela A. Jones

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Can anyone give me any tips on what kind of containers to use while applying beads to a piece of work.

I think everyone has a different preferred storage method.  However, when I am working with them, I use a tray from LoRan that has six large compartments with built in pouring spouts and each compartment has it’s own clear lid.  Along the two long sides of this "tray" are troughs for use in laying out beads when you are doing a row of different coloured beads.  (Anyone who has done earthdancer knows what I mean by this and this tray was wonderfully handy while I was doing her.  *grin*)  I paid $4 for it at my local cross stitch shop.   Susan H. Simko

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I use the lid of my Craft-Stor tote.  It has several raised lines to hold the beads in and the area is large enough to let them spread out.   Meg in Los Angeles

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This is a good place to use those pretty small crystal or porcelein ash trays that most people are not using now for their intended purpose (of course, I am not one of those!).  Otherwise, any small lid – a 35mm film canister, a small plastic (Rubbermaid?) container, etc. – should work as long as it has a rim that is high enough to keep the beads from rolling out onto the floor.  HTH…Ellen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Can anyone give me any tips on what kind of containers to use while applying beads to a piece of work.

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| I keep my beads in camera film containers.  When I’m beading, I put them | on the top lid of a plastic shoebox.  The higher sides keep the beads from | rolling off and I don’t have to put the beads away at night because I can | just sit the shoebox on the floor with the lid until morning. Great idea, Pamela, but you must either have a locked craft room or no small kids or pets!  Most of us couldn’t possible leave such things out overnight.   How do you mark the film containers, or are they the transparent type? — My opinions are my own; if IBM shares them, they haven’t told me.

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Can anyone give me any tips on what kind of containers to use while applying beads to a piece of work.

I use little metal tart tins.  They are fluted for making *little* cakes actually.  My finger fits the flute and I am able to pull one bead at a time.  Also, the sides are high.  Similary and almost as good (except for the flutes) are little dishes for "on the side" foods, like soy sauce or salt cellars.  I find most of my gadgets either in the fishing or cooking sections. Keltia — "And the trouble is, if you don’t risk anything, you risk even more"                                 -Erica Jong

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Great idea, Pamela, but you must either have a locked craft room or no small kids or pets!  Most of us couldn’t possible leave such things out overnight. How do you mark the film containers, or are they the transparent type?

I (for the next 4 weeks) do live alone!  I mark the film containers with small white labels (1/2" x 3/4") which I also use the mark my homemake magnetic needleholder cards. Pamela

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I lost the attribution of who wrote this comment.  Very sorry! applying beads to a piece of work.

Since my beading projects so far have been small (Mill Hill bead kits), I put the whole project in a small tin with handles (I got the tin at Michaels and it shows an old advertisement for Singer.  They had another tin with handles of Hershey’s kisses, but I wasn’t too fond of the picture).  Thus, I can tote around my project when I am not working on it and when I *am* working on it, I just put the beads I want to use in the lid.  If I were working on a larger project (i.e. MLI or TW), then I could always use the tin to carry stuff like floss, scissor, needles, etc. and just pop the whole thing in my project tote and I would still be able to use the lid.  Then again, I may come up with a different method for those…I don’t know yet! — Bekki Lyn Conqueror of 2,7,10,13,12,15,16,18 "Tangled threads seem a stronghold/But illusions can deceive."   +++Fates Warning: The Ivory Gate of Dreams+++ "All acts of love and pleasure are Her rituals."

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This is a good place to use those pretty small crystal or porcelein ash trays that most people are not using now for their intended purpose (of course, I am not one of those!).  Otherwise, any small lid – a 35mm film canister, a small plastic (Rubbermaid?) container, etc. – should work as long as it has a rim that is high enough to keep the beads from rolling out onto the floor.  HTH…Ellen Can anyone give me any tips on what kind of containers to use while applying beads to a piece of work.

hi! coming out of lurkdom :0   i use a chrysanthenum <sp? tray that’s made for watercolours.  the porclain ones are nice, and i can put it into a padded carrying case, and carry my beading with me! happy beading, tree

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To store them (the ones that come loose or in hanks), I use those stackable plastic containers (buyable in craft stores) OR mini ziplock bags OR my new "discovery": mini glass jam containers, you know, those that they serve in hotel breakfasts… While working, I tried the plastic multiple compartments container, but my preferred method is cream cheese plastic lids. Simone BeadNet http://www.mcs.net/~simone/beadnet.html

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I have just discovered the multiple drawer small tool containers in the computer store. Each drawer is clear see through. With optional clear dividers, you can put 3 separate hanks in related colors into the same drawer.. You can pull the drawer out completely (there is a safety catch so you won’t dump the beads unintentionally) and pour out loose beads. They come in 15 to 36 drawer sizes. This is the first time I have found something to be excited about for organizing beads. Until now, I was doing the jars/spice jars/ film containers/ screw top stacking containers without a good organizing solution. I found these drawers at Frye’s which is a computer discount store in California. Similar computer stores or electronic stores should carry these drawer sets where Frye’s do not exist.

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Something else good to keep beads in—I once bought a whole box of rubber-stoppered vacuum tubes from a scientific apparatus remainder company.   (The kind a clinic might use for biiiig blood samples—-about 6 or 7" long) They are clear and hold gobs and gobs of seed beads each.  (They also make a fun little "pop" when you first open them. 8 ^ ) I can’t remember exactly where I bought ‘em, but they were cheap or I wouldn’t have bothered, I’m sure…   I know there are several such odd-lot companies around. Monique in Bryan

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 Until now, I was doing the jars/spice jars/ film containers/ screw top stacking containers without a good organizing solution. I found these drawers at Frye’s which is a computer discount store in California. Similar computer stores or electronic stores should carry these drawer sets where Frye’s do not exist.

Don’t laugh I have been using my Dads empty Skoal cans.I put tape on the bottom and lid with the #.(wintergreen smells nice.I do wash them be for using.:-  Sheila

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Until now, I was doing the jars/spice jars/ film containers/ screw top stacking containers without a good organizing solution. I found these drawers at Frye’s which is a computer discount store in California. Similar computer stores or electronic stores should carry these drawer sets where Frye’s do not exist. Don’t laugh I have been using my Dads empty Skoal cans.I put tape on the bottom and lid with the #.(wintergreen smells nice.I do wash them be for using.:-  Sheila

My husband (also a stitcher) came home with some very cool clear plastic containers from the fishing department, perfect for beads. The are about 1-1/2 inch diameter and one screws onto the bottom of the other.  You can stack as many together as you want (each is about 1 inch tall).  When I want to use a certain bead,  I simply unscrew the container I want, and the rest remain closed!  I have taken small adhesive labels to put the bead numbers on each container.  They didn’t have any kind of brand name on them, so I can’t share that with you… but look in the tackle dept.  I think they are made for storing fishing flys!          ** Anne in Oregon                       ~ So many projects, so little time ~

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There’s a nice little system called the Bead Hive made out of little interlocking plastic drawers.  They get sold in sets of 12 for ~$10.  What is nice about them is that you can detach the drawers and just have the drawers filled with the beads you need for your project.  I’ve seen them in the CS&CC catalog and my favorite local needlework shop here in the Silicon Valley sells them too. Happy stitching, Cynthia

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I use the stacking screw top containers that screw on top of each other. The small ones are for the beads(I clip out the brand name and catalog number from the package as a label and slip it into the container with the beads), and there are slightly larger ones..I use these for my growing confetti collection.  These work fine for me…but will be kind of confusing as I start to stitch pieces calling for more similar beads. Mari

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My husband (also a stitcher) came home with some very cool clear plastic containers from the fishing department, perfect for beads. The are about 1-1/2 inch diameter and one screws onto the bottom of the other.  You can stack as many together as you want (each is about 1 inch tall).  When I want to use a certain bead,  I simply unscrew the container I want, and the rest remain closed!  I have taken small adhesive labels to put the bead numbers on each container.  They didn’t have any kind of brand name on them, so I can’t share that with you… but look in the tackle dept.  I think they are made for storing fishing flys!         ** Anne in Oregon                      ~ So many projects, so little time ~

I have found that our fly fishing shop has the best prices, by far, and better quality stackable containers (some bead shops have ones that don’t screw together very well after you get them apart).  Also, when I go to buy them, I get great service — usually I’m the only woman in the shop and all them men let me go first when ringing up the sale!  Chivalry lives! Karen

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Something else good to keep beads in—I once bought a whole box of rubber-stoppered vacuum tubes from a scientific apparatus remainder company. I can’t remember exactly where I bought ‘em, but they were cheap or I wouldn’t have bothered, I’m sure…  

    Monique, wasn’t that American Scientific?  With their really goof catalogues?  Martha Beth

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