Question:

"Old friends can wade a trout stream together or walk a woodland cover and not encounter just the fish or game of that day, but also the memories of other days and other places. They’ve taken the bitter with the better and found it all rewarding."     -Lee Wulff, Outdoor Life I stumbled across this today and thought others might enjoy it. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

"Old friends can wade a trout stream together or walk a woodland cover and not encounter just the fish or game of that day, but also the memories of other days and other places. They’ve taken the bitter with the better and found it all rewarding."     -Lee Wulff, Outdoor Life I stumbled across this today and thought others might enjoy it.

Too nice to snip, thanks George. At the risk of sounding maudlin, this describes to a T recent forays into the Blue Ridge with the NC boyos met on ROFF. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

"Old friends can wade a trout stream together or walk a woodland cover and not encounter just the fish or game of that day, but also the memories of other days and other places. They’ve taken the bitter with the better and found it all rewarding."     -Lee Wulff, Outdoor Life I stumbled across this today and thought others might enjoy it.

It reminds me of an episode of Star Trek (TNG) where a race of beings that communicated only by referring to other events in the past tense. "How was your trip?" "Warren and Bruiser on the Beaverhead!" ("I fished with streamers hard all day, and as usual I got skunked.") "Miller and LaCourse on the Rapid River!" ("I ran into a friend of mine, but I didn’t recognize him at first because he wasn’t attached to a stimulator.  My girlfriend caught a bigger trout than me on her second ever fly fishing attempt.") "Zimbo and Waldo at Elk River!" ("I fished with a nice gentleman and caught some nice fish, but unfortunately my reel fell into the river.  Also, I left my waders wadded up in a ball in the trunk of my car, and they now smell like shit."  (respectively) )

Response:

….eight beats to the bar…… john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Old friends can wade a trout stream together or walk a woodland cover and not encounter just the fish or game of that day, but also the memories of other days and other places. They’ve taken the bitter with the better and found it all rewarding."     -Lee Wulff, Outdoor Life I stumbled across this today and thought others might enjoy it. It reminds me of an episode of Star Trek (TNG) where a race of beings that communicated only by referring to other events in the past tense. "How was your trip?" "Warren and Bruiser on the Beaverhead!" ("I fished with streamers hard all day, and as usual I got skunked.") "Miller and LaCourse on the Rapid River!" ("I ran into a friend of mine, but I didn’t recognize him at first because he wasn’t attached to a stimulator.  My girlfriend caught a bigger trout than me on her second ever fly fishing attempt.") "Zimbo and Waldo at Elk River!" ("I fished with a nice gentleman and caught some nice fish, but unfortunately my reel fell into the river.  Also, I left my waders wadded up in a ball in the trunk of my car, and they now smell like shit."  (respectively) )

Response:

Question:

Is Tim McVeigh a murderer, a pawn, a disgruntled worker or a martyr for a cause; or did he just deliver justice to an out of control government? A new perspective that the folks at the Today Show and the like don’t want you to consider. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

Response:

Usenet Abuse Path: sn-us!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!feeder.qis.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demo n!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news.tele.dk!195.21.255.252!unlisys !news.snafu.de!nautilus.eusc.inter.net!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed. kpnqwest.at!anon.lcs.mit.edu!nym.alias.net!mail2news-x5!mail2news-x4!mai l2news-x3!mail2news-x2!mail2news Comments: This message did not originate from the Sender address above.  It was remailed automatically by anonymizing remailer software.  Please report problems or inappropriate use to the Newsgroups: alt.comp.periphs.cdr,alt.toys.gi-joe,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly,rec.outdoo rs.rv-travel,rec.sport.skating.ice.figure Lines: 8 Xref: sn-us alt.comp.periphs.cdr:297940 alt.toys.gi-joe:305210 rec.outdoors.fishing.fly:239628 rec.outdoors.rv-travel:270440 rec.sport.skating.ice.figure:329957

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is Tim McVeigh a murderer, a pawn, a disgruntled worker or a martyr for a cause; or did he just deliver justice to an out of control government? A new perspective that the folks at the Today Show and the like don’t want you to consider. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

Response:

Is Tim McVeigh a murderer, a pawn, a disgruntled worker or a martyr for a cause; or did he just deliver justice to an out of control government?

No. He just hated like a hick .. no reason or judgement .. just bound up in an unquestioned way of life that he didn’t have the intelligence to set aside. johns

Response:

yawn just another pylon to ignore… I don’t know why anyone even bothers to find out who these "anonymous" ppl are. The internet is such a cultural wasteland filled with clueless people so eager to share their misinformed or misguided opinion. Time to put the LSD and crayons away.  People truly need to learn that the gov’t really doesn’t give a rats ass about who you are, or what you do. You’re just a number in a total population figure. The reason people say ignorance is bliss is because the statement has some merit to it.  Live to whatever age you live to, marry reproduce and be wormfood. Oh, and quit hogging our newsgroup bandwidth.  If you aren’t behind the way the world works by now, you never will be.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is Tim McVeigh a murderer, a pawn, a disgruntled worker or a martyr for a cause; or did he just deliver justice to an out of control government? A new perspective that the folks at the Today Show and the like don’t want you to consider. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

Response:

You ask this about the guy who said children killed in the explosion were collateral damage.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is Tim McVeigh a murderer, a pawn, a disgruntled worker or a martyr for a cause; or did he just deliver justice to an out of control government? A new perspective that the folks at the Today Show and the like don’t want you to consider. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

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Is Tim McVeigh a murderer, Yes. Please post all the facts.

Facts are he was conviicted and recently admitted his role to two local reporters who interviewed him for a recently published book. Of course the jury could be wrong and Tim could have lied to the authors. Digger, AKA Grumps (old and crusty) All errors; spilling, grimatical, ore tieping intenshunal.

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You ask this about the guy who said children killed in the explosion were collateral damage. Isn’t that what his government said about the children killed in various bombings around the world?

Two wrongs don’t make a right. )

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You ask this about the guy who said children killed in the explosion were collateral damage. Isn’t that what his government said about the children killed in various bombings around the world? Two wrongs don’t make a right.

After what he did to the children and their family’s,  they should just strap him to a box of dynamite and set it off…….  But that would cause air pollution I suppose…… Pete

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You ask this about the guy who said children killed in the explosion were collateral damage. Isn’t that what his government said about the children killed in various bombings around the world?

Sometimes it is what one doesn’t say. Utterly unbelievable story in today’s paper: "Birmingham, Ala. – For three decades, the FBI failed to disclose it had hundreds of hours of tape recordings and other evidence that could help convict former Ku Klux Klansmen in the 1963 church bombing that killed four black girls. FBI spokesman Craig Dahle said, " I think it is wrong to assert there was any effort to block anything." Jay Reeves, Associated Press May 4, 2001 It was not stated just what title was put on this governmental file. Steve                ~ Illegitimi Non Carborundum ~

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Regardless of feelings about McVeigh’s act in OKC, it’s NOT hard to understand his rationale – especially in relation to acts like Waco that predominantly shaped his own retaliatory act as it did. If you are to understand the things people do, you have to ALSO understand their motivations. *I* understand Tim’s – I think – but what I DON’T understand is WHY, once he was caught he abandoned his "rebel crusade" and pleaded innocent, rather than stand boldly as the revolutionary he seemed to picture himself to that point. After all, "crusaders", and "revolutionaries" pretty much have to assume they will eventually be caught and punished – and when THAT happens, if they are SINCERE in their supposed beliefs, they would be expected to one more time use the public spotlite to advance their core belief rather than try to weasle out like a coward… — Gary – KJ6Q http://community.webshots.com/user/davison71 California’s energy crisis… Brought to you by your friendly environmentalists. Cold? Hungry? Roast a Spotted Owl over a family room bonfire! Out of work? Volunteer for a job at Sierra Club headquarters to help tear down more dams and power plants in California and along the Columbia river…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You ask this about the guy who said children killed in the explosion were collateral damage. Isn’t that what his government said about the children killed in various bombings around the world? Sometimes it is what one doesn’t say. Utterly unbelievable story in today’s paper: "Birmingham, Ala. – For three decades, the FBI failed to disclose it had hundreds of hours of tape recordings and other evidence that could help convict former Ku Klux Klansmen in the 1963 church bombing that killed four black girls. FBI spokesman Craig Dahle said, " I think it is wrong to assert there was any effort to block anything." Jay Reeves, Associated Press May 4, 2001 It was not stated just what title was put on this governmental file. Steve                ~ Illegitimi Non Carborundum ~

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croaked…   Is Tim McVeigh a murderer, Yes. Please post all the facts.

Please take it off this list.

Response:

Is that what you think of doing to your president too?

Just why would one want to do that? Lets see.  Your ‘name is "BUTCHER" and you ask this kind of question? Visit www.k7no.com   Under construction but getting there.

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Is that what you think of doing to your president too? Just why would one want to do that? Lets see.  Your ‘name is "BUTCHER" and you ask this kind of question? And???

And yer cross-posting this nonesense over about half a dozen newsgroups. Seriously, if we all wanted these opinions we’d have gone out of our ways to ask y’all for them. –Ken

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Question:

Today I finally found the time to head up to Boone and fish for trout. It had been nearly two months since my last visit. Fortunately, I was able to bring along an ex-ROFFian celebrity guest which had the added bonus of providing Waldo a bit of motivation to join us for the day. I think I can safely speak for all of three us when I say that we had a great time. After taking care of a few errands in the area, Celebrity Guest and I met Waldo at his house at about 9:30am and headed to the Watauga. We decided to fish the delayed harvest section for a while as we waited for the sun to come out and (hopefully) bring the fish to the surface. As it turns out, the fish never did really get into the swing of taking dry flies, so we (well, those of us with no scruples anyway) were relegated to fishing with nymphs. The stockers were unusually picky and much more of a challenge than normal. Not a bad thing at all, but in the end we did manage to catch a respectable number of fish. At about noon we headed to a wild stream that has quickly become one of my very favorite places on earth to fish. The water was running high and *cold* but relatively clear. I was actually glad that I had let Celebrity Guest borrow my nice breathable waders and that I had chosen to wear my neoprene backups. We fished some absolutely stunning stretches of water. Despite the fact that I’m practically only half the age of my fishing partners, I was the only one to take a spill. I didn’t get wet, but I did manage quite a shin shiner. Once again, dry flies did not produce (although Waldo and Celebrity Guest stuck to their dry fly guns with seasoned determination) but a few fish could be had here and there in the deep pools with small Prince nymphs and a couple of–ahem–sinkers. It’s interesting how different things are at this time of year than they were last year at this time. The water is much higher and colder which has likely delayed the dry fly action by several weeks. Or maybe that has nothing to do with it; who knows. Despite the predictions of rain showers, the weather was great. An almost eery cold front pushed its way into the area right as we were breaking down our gear (at about 3:30pm) and by 4:00pm it was butt cold outside. A good day on the stream and the company was most excellent. Can’t wait to do it again… –Steve

Response:

  Um, I need a ruling on the above: is it White Fish that he’s fucking, or is he a White Fucker who preys on fish?

Jeff preys on white fish.  What he did with them after that is still his little secret <g HTH. — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

Response:

Sure, but just in a sarcastic manner…. Shut up  white fish fucker!

Um, I need a ruling on the above: is it White Fish that he’s fucking, or is he a White Fucker who preys on fish? /daytripper (Thanks in advance

Response:

So if I designate myself as the "Best fly fisherman to ever live" will you guys start referring to me as that?

Sure, but just in a sarcastic manner….

Response:

Sure, but just in a sarcastic manner….

Shut up  white fish fucker! — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

Response:

Ya really think Zimbo’s breathables would fit the dwarf?  

Maybe they cut one leg off of Waldo’s old waders and made him hop from boulder to boulder. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Well hell’s bells, are you going to tell us who it is? It was Vern Ursenbach.

Cool! I always thought Vern was perfectly proportioned to fish those little NC streams. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Ya really think Zimbo’s breathables would fit the dwarf?   (You wouldn’t believe how many times I had to rewrite that to avoid some sicko double-entendre.   e.g. Do you think Vern would fit in Zimbo’s

waders?) I am sure he could reside in one leg of Zimbo’s waders very comfortably <g — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

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"Paul Goodwin" wrote I do believe that if he was goint to tell us he would have.    So it must have been the dwarf.

Ya really think Zimbo’s breathables would fit the dwarf?   (You wouldn’t believe how many times I had to rewrite that to avoid some sicko double-entendre.   e.g. Do you think Vern would fit in Zimbo’s waders?) Joe F.

Response:

Charlie Wilson: "Paul Goodwin" wrote I do believe that if he was goint to tell us he would have.   So it must have been the dwarf.

<splork  But I missed the computer!!! <g Dave

Response:

It was Vern Ursenbach. You are joking right? Hell yeah he’s joking. It was the American Sportsman.

Oh, you mean Curt Gowdy

Response:

It was the company that I help start (The American Sportsman’s Club" OR it is "The American Sportsman’s Series" that was directed by my good friend, who recently died, Burr Smidt who lives on Manasee Road in Sarasota Florida.  He has done a lot of production works that were outstanding, especially those done with his wife, Renee’ Valenti Smidt. The American Sportsman was a popular Television Series twenty years ago. Guests included Bing Crosby, and many other Hollywood American Sportsmen.  It was THE PREMIER Outdoors Program all others try to top. None have done it to date Warren. George     Hell yeah he’s joking. It was the American Sportsman. WhoTF is the American Sportsman? — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

– (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

GROSS! George was using that tag for a while last year. So if I designate myself as the "Best fly fisherman to ever live" will you guys start referring to me as that? Why does it remind me of the old saying "You can hope in one hand, crap in the other and see which one gets filled first" ?.?.?.? — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

– (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

    Hell yeah he’s joking. It was the American Sportsman.

WhoTF is the American Sportsman? — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

Response:

George was using that tag for a while last year. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Hell yeah he’s joking. It was the American Sportsman. WhoTF is the American Sportsman? — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

Response:

George was using that tag for a while last year.

So if I designate myself as the "Best fly fisherman to ever live" will you guys start referring to me as that? Why does it remind me of the old saying "You can hope in one hand, crap in the other and see which one gets filled first" ?.?.?.? — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

Response:

It was Vern Ursenbach. You are joking right?

    Hell yeah he’s joking. It was the American Sportsman.

Response:

It was Vern Ursenbach. You are joking right?

You’ll have to ask Mr. Wilson about that… –Steve

Response:

"Paul Goodwin" wrote I do believe that if he was goint to tell us he would have.   So it must have been the dwarf.

Somehow I doubt Mrs. Dwarf would let him roam that far. /daytripper (My money’s on wayno…)

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Well hell’s bell’s, are you going to tell us who it is?

Response:

I do believe that if he was goint to tell us he would have.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well hell’s bell’s, are you going to tell us who it is?

Response:

"Paul Goodwin" wrote I do believe that if he was goint to tell us he would have.

   So it must have been the dwarf.

Response:

Well hell’s bells, are you going to tell us who it is?

It was Vern Ursenbach. –Steve

Response:

It was Vern Ursenbach.

You are joking right?

Response:

<snipped nice TR for space? Glad you had a good time.  Perhaps you can broker a deal for their extra water to help fill up our rivers and resevoirs to keep California in electricity this summer. Was Wayno the celebrity guest? <g — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

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Question:

Hi All on the Caribbean Travel News Group, If you have any questions about traveling or staying in Belize, I would contacted Marge Perez. She runs a travel agency at the International airport outside Belize City. Margie worked for Tropic Air for many years and knows the country better than most people. She has friends or relatives in many places in Belize. She is used by the famous Orvis Company (USA) for cordinating their customers that travel to Belize. She is on-line and will have a web site up soon. I have a good knowledge of the fly fishing in Belize if you need any help there.

Response:

I have a good knowledge of the fly fishing in Belize if you need any help there——What kind if fly fishing? In streams or in bays? What kind of fish?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All on the Caribbean Travel News Group, If you have any questions about traveling or staying in Belize, I would contacted Marge Perez. She runs a travel agency at the International airport outside Belize City. Margie worked for Tropic Air for many years and knows the country better than most people. She has friends or relatives in many places in Belize. She is used by the famous Orvis Company (USA) for cordinating their customers that travel to Belize. She is on-line and will have a web site up soon. I have a good knowledge of the fly fishing in Belize if you need any help there.

Response:

Question:

You guys (meant respectfully, plurally, and either gender) were great when I asked about your candidates for the best vise going. Now, if you will take me out of my misery again, this time… please … Which wader. Are breathables as good as neoprene in cold weather, if you wear longjohns (or whatever) under them? In very cold weather? I fish Oregon rivers and will be going to Wyoming at the end of October. Yellowstone, etc. Are breathables okay in very warm weather? I know from previous posts that many of you swear by Orvis, while others — at least one among you — swore by Simms. I lean toward Simms but wonder if they are worth the money. There is quite a price spread. I’m inclined to spring for the difference if justified because my nylons are beginning to look they came out of a glue pot. And, thinking of another recent thread, does anyone selling Simms blink on the price. Larry R (About the thread on vises: I wanted to check out the Darnica, or Danica, but couldn’t find it anywhere. Someone said Orvis sells it under a different name, but I couldn’t tell because their vises all seem to have recognizable brands.)

Response:

I too am an Oregonian and began using Neoprenes with the old James Scott unlined ones….great smell to them after a couple of outings, sort of like the Chicago stockyards on a hot August day.  With the advent of breathables I’d never wear another Neoprene wader, winter or summer…breathables all the way, in the summer a pair of light weight capilene long johns to keep the moisture off the skin and prevent a case of rosy red ass from cropping up on the 3d or 4th day of a trip. When it is really cold (like the Sandy in January, Idaho in October ) Patagonia Expedition weight long johns or lt. long johns under a lt. wt capilene pant is the ticket for me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You guys (meant respectfully, plurally, and either gender) were great when I asked about your candidates for the best vise going. Now, if you will take me out of my misery again, this time… please … Which wader. Are breathables as good as neoprene in cold weather, if you wear longjohns (or whatever) under them? In very cold weather? I fish Oregon rivers and will be going to Wyoming at the end of October. Yellowstone, etc. Are breathables okay in very warm weather? I know from previous posts that many of you swear by Orvis, while others — at least one among you — swore by Simms. I lean toward Simms but wonder if they are worth the money. There is quite a price spread. I’m inclined to spring for the difference if justified because my nylons are beginning to look they came out of a glue pot. And, thinking of another recent thread, does anyone selling Simms blink on the price. Larry R (About the thread on vises: I wanted to check out the Darnica, or Danica, but couldn’t find it anywhere. Someone said Orvis sells it under a different name, but I couldn’t tell because their vises all seem to have recognizable brands.)

– Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                          Tom McGuane

Response:

Which wader.

I haven’t tried the breathables yet, I think the jury is still out on those, some seem to like them some don’t. Last year I decided that my old Hodgeman neo’s had shrunk enough (:-)) and that I needed a larger size. I had a LL Bean gift certificate that was a Christmas present so I went down to Freeport and got fitted for a nice pair of waders. Compared to my old Hodgeman’s these things are fantastic. Guess I’m a neoprene guy, but then I float tube in some pretty darn cold water and I can’t imagine using a pair of breathables for that purpose. Under the neo’s I wear a pair of polypro johhnies that I got on sale at the Fly shop in Greenville Maine…this has turned out to be the best setup I’ve had yet. Flyfish

Response:

Are breathables as good as neoprene in cold weather…

I tested the Simms Goretex on 2 trips to Alaska this year. When wading in knee-deep darn-cold water, and while hiking, they were far better than neoprene.  When in waist-deep darn-cold water, even with 300 polartec pants and wool socks, I started to chill quickly.  When sitting in a semi-cold wet raft, those portions of the waders that were in contact with the raft or other objects lost their functionality, and it seemed like wet-spots were forming on the inside of the waders and there was zero heat retention. During one day of rafting I was on the verge of hypothermia in the Simms Goretex whereas I’m 100% sure I would have been warm in neoprene. My overall take is this.  All breathable waders are good *if and only if* they get a change to breath and vent off any moisture buildup which would otherwise wick warmth away from the body. Time-extended or deep wading, or sitting or leaning on surfaces causes moisture buildup followed by rapid heat loss.  Neoprene on the other hand might get damp inside from sweat, but its a "warm damp". As I resume winter steelheading, I’ll be back in the neoprene. Thomas Gilg

Response:

I have the 3.5 mil neoprene waders, and find them to be uncomfortably warm most of the time in Oregon.  If I was getting out often enough to justify the price, I’d get a set of lightweight breathable ones and a pair of fleece pants to wear underneath in colder conditions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are breathables as good as neoprene in cold weather, if you wear longjohns (or whatever) under them? In very cold weather? I fish Oregon rivers and will be going to Wyoming at the end of October. Yellowstone, etc. Are breathables okay in very warm weather?

Response:

When Neoprenes are too hot, why not wade wet? Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have the 3.5 mil neoprene waders, and find them to be uncomfortably warm most of the time in Oregon.  If I was getting out often enough to justify the price, I’d get a set of lightweight breathable ones and a pair of fleece pants to wear underneath in colder conditions. Are breathables as good as neoprene in cold weather, if you wear longjohns (or whatever) under them? In very cold weather? I fish Oregon rivers and will be going to Wyoming at the end of October. Yellowstone, etc. Are breathables okay in very warm weather?

Response:

I used to wade wet in the summer, but the snow melt in the Sierras can be very cold, so I started using lightweight stocking foot hip waders and never get too warm or too cold. Ernie Harrison See Ernie’s Fly-Fishing Stuff:   http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -When Neoprenes are too hot, why not wade wet? Willi I have the 3.5 mil neoprene waders, and find them to be uncomfortably warm most of the time in Oregon.  If I was getting out often enough to justify the price, I’d get a set of lightweight breathable ones and a pair of fleece pants to wear underneath in colder conditions.

Response:

re breathables as good as neoprene in cold weather, if you wear longjohns (or whatever) under them? In very cold weather? I fish Oregon rivers and will be going to Wyoming at the end of October. Yellowstone, etc.

I believe the breathables are as good or better than neoprenes in the winter provided the appropiate undergarments are worn. I usually wear a pair of long underwear and depending upon the weather and mood, flannel lined jeans or fleece pants and good socks (wool usually). Are breathables okay in very warm weather?

Yes as long as your in the water. They may breathe but on a hot day, waders are still waders when walking back out. I know from previous posts that many of you swear by Orvis, while others — at least one among you — swore by Simms. I lean toward Simms but wonder if they are worth the money. There is quite a price spread. I’m inclined to spring for the difference if justified because my nylons are beginning to look they came out of a glue pot.

I swear by Simms. and as far as I’m concerned, comparing them to other *cheaper* breathable waders I’ve seen, there is no comparison.  But there are other good brands coming out or are out (Patagonia, LL Bean, Ronny, etc). I think you first need to decide Gore Tex or not. Simms is gore tex, Orvis is not. Not saying that one is better than the other, but the gore tex stuff often carries a premium. Wayne Knight (remove nospam to respond via mail) Expert in the creation of  wind knots and tailing loops.

Response:

I wear my breathables only in the summer and ony for wading. Not for belly boating. I ran into a pair of old guys (70s) who were wearing breathables with long johns and several other layers in the dead of winter. I were 3mm in the early fall and 5 mm in the winter and in the spring belly boating with more or less layers underneath. Breathables are much more comfortable and I’d wear them all the time if I didn’t suffer urinary types of distress when I cold soak my ah…crotch. I’ve got the LL Bean bullet proof breathables with Kevlar since I do lots of bushwhacking through stuff that rips up normal breathables or neoprenes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You guys (meant respectfully, plurally, and either gender) were great when I asked about your candidates for the best vise going. Now, if you will take me out of my misery again, this time… please … Which wader. Are breathables as good as neoprene in cold weather, if you wear longjohns (or whatever) under them? In very cold weather? I fish Oregon rivers and will be going to Wyoming at the end of October. Yellowstone, etc. Are breathables okay in very warm weather? I know from previous posts that many of you swear by Orvis, while others — at least one among you — swore by Simms. I lean toward Simms but wonder if they are worth the money. There is quite a price spread. I’m inclined to spring for the difference if justified because my nylons are beginning to look they came out of a glue pot. And, thinking of another recent thread, does anyone selling Simms blink on the price. Larry R (About the thread on vises: I wanted to check out the Darnica, or Danica, but couldn’t find it anywhere. Someone said Orvis sells it under a different name, but I couldn’t tell because their vises all seem to have recognizable brands.)

Response:

<tale of woe snipped Sounds like a case of bad layering techniques.  Try wearing something that will keep you dry and allow the moisture to escape.  Wearing materials that absorb and keep water is not something one would consider appropriate for wearing under breathables. I have found wearing fleece to be most comfortable.  I know the winters here in Montana don’t get as cold as Alaska, but it does get colder than a witches tit in a brass bra here.  On extremely cold days I still slip into my neoprenes, but for the most part I wear my breathables and just layer myself underneath. With proper layering you will stay warm and dry and not have any sad tales to tell. Here is an example of what I wear: 2  sets of long johns 1 set of fleece bibs 1 pair of sweats pants 2 pair of heavy wool socks 1 sweatshirt 1 fleece jacket 1 Gore-Tex jacket to stop wind / keep dry With this setup I am comfortable on those really cold days.  Other times I don’t need as much and find myself shedding an upper layer or two. The key is wearing materials that don’t absorb and hold water close to the skin. Hope this helps.  Stay warm. Warren

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Agree with most of your post except the part about sweat pants and sweatshirt. Most of these are made of cotton and cotton loses its ability to insulate after it gets wet. So if the moisture is wicked by the fleece layer to the cotton, you have a soggy layer that’s providing no heat retention. Wool, however, does retain its insulating properties when wet but gets soggy nonetheless. Polypropylene fleece is the best all around in my opinion for wicking and maintaining its insulating properties. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <tale of woe snipped Sounds like a case of bad layering techniques.  Try wearing something that will keep you dry and allow the moisture to escape.  Wearing materials that absorb and keep water is not something one would consider appropriate for wearing under breathables. I have found wearing fleece to be most comfortable.  I know the winters here in Montana don’t get as cold as Alaska, but it does get colder than a witches tit in a brass bra here.  On extremely cold days I still slip into my neoprenes, but for the most part I wear my breathables and just layer myself underneath. With proper layering you will stay warm and dry and not have any sad tales to tell. Here is an example of what I wear: 2  sets of long johns 1 set of fleece bibs 1 pair of sweats pants 2 pair of heavy wool socks 1 sweatshirt 1 fleece jacket 1 Gore-Tex jacket to stop wind / keep dry With this setup I am comfortable on those really cold days.  Other times I don’t need as much and find myself shedding an upper layer or two. The key is wearing materials that don’t absorb and hold water close to the skin. Hope this helps.  Stay warm. Warren

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Two sets of long johns, fleece bibs, and a pair of sweat pants? Judas, man, how the hell do you walk with all that around your gams? Must be hell when you gotta pee.

Actually it isn’t.  The bibs have a zipper at the bottom of the fly as well as the top.  The long johns are the old fashioned "union suits" that have buttons all down the front and a trap door in the rear.  The sweats are elastic at the waist.  I leave the long johns unbuttoned at the last button so it is easily accessable.   Walking isn’t a problem because I buy my waders a little large so it all fits. It is really only slightly more bulky than neoprenes. Warren

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Two sets of long johns, fleece bibs, and a pair of sweat pants? Judas, man, how the hell do you walk with all that around your gams? Must be hell when you gotta pee. -wf – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <tale of woe snipped Sounds like a case of bad layering techniques.  Try wearing something that will keep you dry and allow the moisture to escape.  Wearing materials that absorb and keep water is not something one would consider appropriate for wearing under breathables. I have found wearing fleece to be most comfortable.  I know the winters here in Montana don’t get as cold as Alaska, but it does get colder than a witches tit in a brass bra here.  On extremely cold days I still slip into my neoprenes, but for the most part I wear my breathables and just layer myself underneath. With proper layering you will stay warm and dry and not have any sad tales to tell. Here is an example of what I wear: 2  sets of long johns 1 set of fleece bibs 1 pair of sweats pants 2 pair of heavy wool socks 1 sweatshirt 1 fleece jacket 1 Gore-Tex jacket to stop wind / keep dry With this setup I am comfortable on those really cold days.  Other times I don’t need as much and find myself shedding an upper layer or two. The key is wearing materials that don’t absorb and hold water close to the skin. Hope this helps.  Stay warm. Warren

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When Neoprenes are too hot, why not wade wet? Willi

Because the air temp may be warm, but the water cold as hell after the snow melts. Warren

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0] : … : (About the thread on vises: I wanted to check out the Darnica, or : Danica, but couldn’t find it anywhere. Someone said Orvis sells it under : a different name, but I couldn’t tell because their vises all seem to : have recognizable brands.) See Al Beatty’s web page http://www.btsflyfishing.com  He sells the Danica vise and is a real straight shooter. You won’t go wrong dealing with him. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

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Question:

MARK POKRAS, DIRECTOR OF TUFTS UNIVERSITY VETERINARY WILDLIFE CLINIC SAYS MORE THAN HALF OF ALL LOON DEATHS ARE CAUSED BY INGESTING LEAD FISHING GEAR (SINKERS, JIGS).  NEW HAMPSHIRE HAS BANNED ALL LEAD SINKERS, JIGS AFTER JANUARY 1, 2000. WHERE IS NEW JERSEY, NEW YORK, PENNSYLVANIA FISH & GAME COUNCILS- HIDING FROM THIS DAMAGE?

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bs1776 YELLS: <<MARK POKRAS, DIRECTOR OF TUFTS UNIVERSITY VETERINARY WILDLIFE CLINIC SAYS MORE THAN HALF OF ALL LOON DEATHS ARE CAUSED BY INGESTING LEAD FISHING GEAR (SINKERS, JIGS). Why are you YELLING?  Where does this Pokras get his info? Loons populations here in New England are anything but endangered.  Besides, very little of the lead found in waters comes from fly fishermen. Dave LaCourse

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Lead has been banned in England for angling purposes for quite some time, as it was also suggested that many water birds, especially swans, were dying of lead poisoning due to ingestion.  Whether or not this is true, ( not many deaths were even proved to be attributable to lead poisoning), most of the lead in the waters concerned was coming from shotgun loads. I suspect this will be mostly the reason elsewhere too. BY THE WAY, THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT, I AM ONLY ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ATLANTIC ! TL MC

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(BS1776) writes: MARK POKRAS, DIRECTOR OF TUFTS UNIVERSITY VETERINARY WILDLIFE CLINIC SAYS MORE THAN HALF OF ALL LOON DEATHS ARE CAUSED BY INGESTING LEAD FISHING GEAR (SINKERS, JIGS).  NEW HAMPSHIRE HAS BANNED ALL LEAD SINKERS, JIGS AFTER JANUARY 1, 2000. WHERE IS NEW JERSEY, NEW YORK, PENNSYLVANIA FISH & GAME COUNCILS- HIDING FROM THIS DAMAGE?

May be we should all through our sinkers in the water to get rid of more of them.

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MARK POKRAS, DIRECTOR OF TUFTS UNIVERSITY VETERINARY WILDLIFE CLINIC SAYS MORE THAN HALF OF ALL LOON DEATHS ARE CAUSED BY INGESTING LEAD FISHING GEAR (SINKERS, JIGS).  NEW HAMPSHIRE HAS BANNED ALL LEAD SINKERS, JIGS AFTER JANUARY 1, 2000. WHERE IS NEW JERSEY, NEW YORK, PENNSYLVANIA FISH & GAME COUNCILS- HIDING FROM THIS DAMAGE?

Some loons should be endagered. Capt. Gary S. Colecchio West Palm Beach "Lie ? Me ? Never!  No, no, no, the truth is far too much fun !" – Captain Hook

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Powlesland’s been licking the paint again, eh ? — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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Please Take Your Penis Off Of The Shift Key. — Nicholas J. Slodki http://trampled.net/Nikolai0/

:MARK POKRAS, DIRECTOR OF TUFTS UNIVERSITY VETERINARY WILDLIFE CLINIC SAYS MORE :THAN HALF OF ALL LOON DEATHS ARE CAUSED BY INGESTING LEAD FISHING GEAR SINKERS, JIGS).  NEW HAMPSHIRE HAS BANNED ALL LEAD SINKERS, JIGS AFTER JANUARY :1, 2000. WHERE IS NEW JERSEY, NEW YORK, PENNSYLVANIA FISH & GAME COUNCILS- :HIDING FROM THIS DAMAGE?

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Some loons should be endagered. Capt. Gary S. Colecchio West Palm Beach

Would you perhaps be speaking of those AR loons?  When does their season open again?  I have to remember to buy about 20 tags. WF

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season open again?

Perhaps there is no open season because they should not be protected.Uh…is there a bounty on them? Big Dale

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HUH SAY WHAT HUH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – bs1776 YELLS: <<MARK POKRAS, DIRECTOR OF TUFTS UNIVERSITY VETERINARY WILDLIFE CLINIC SAYS MORE THAN HALF OF ALL LOON DEATHS ARE CAUSED BY INGESTING LEAD FISHING GEAR (SINKERS, JIGS). Why are you YELLING?  Where does this Pokras get his info? Loons populations here in New England are anything but endangered.  Besides, very little of the lead found in waters comes from fly fishermen. Dave LaCourse

Response:

MARK POKRAS, DIRECTOR OF TUFTS UNIVERSITY VETERINARY WILDLIFE CLINIC SAYS MORE THAN HALF OF ALL LOON DEATHS ARE CAUSED BY INGESTING LEAD FISHING GEAR (SINKERS, JIGS).  NEW HAMPSHIRE HAS BANNED ALL LEAD SINKERS, JIGS AFTER JANUARY 1, 2000. WHERE IS NEW JERSEY, NEW YORK, PENNSYLVANIA FISH & GAME COUNCILS- HIDING FROM THIS DAMAGE?

George, is this a spam for Xink?

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Question:

George and Darren are dead right about the potential problem wading with higher water flows.  But we have been OK even when the flows are near 5000CFS – the trick is to watch other fishermen to locate crossings and places it’s safe to wade.  When you see one take one step forward and float two steps back, he’s getting a bit deep.  And don’t forget if your wading partner is shorter than you she might find the water more difficult…and I speak from personal experience WHICH SHE’LL NEVER LET ME FORGET!  And in May, that is some COLD water.  Good luck,  Bruce V

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In Durango, CO is Duranglers; they also have (had?) a shop right on the river in NM.  Good folks to me. BB

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In Durango, CO is Duranglers; they also have (had?) a shop right on the river in NM.  Good folks to me. BB

Mr. G. — Visit: http://www.gink.com        http://www.xink.com        http://www.rodbuilding.com        http://www.rodbuilder.com All Writings & Rights Reserved

Question:

I just moved to Los Angeles from Pennsylvania, where I’d be flyfishing for trout every weekend. I’m looking for suggestions for the closest stream to LA where I catch some west coast trout. Thanks. —

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I just moved to Los Angeles from Pennsylvania, where I’d be flyfishing for trout every weekend. I’m looking for suggestions for the closest stream to LA where I catch some west coast trout. Thanks. —

If you like lake fishing, there are many around that have stocked fish, incl. Castaic and Piru, north off 5 about 1 hr. If you like big rivers with wild fish–like the Madison–you’re out of luck.   If you like small streams with small wild rainbows and occaisional browns, use this formula: ANY stream in the San Gabriel or San Bernardino Mountains that runs year ’round has them.  Get out a map, explore and remember two rules of thumb:  For maximum fishing pleasure, DON’T fish on the weekends; but if you have to fish weekends, get as far from other people as possible by hiking. You might want to try the East Fork of the San Gabriel River above Azusa off Hwy. 39.  If you get back in a few miles you might be able to get away from most everyone else.  (The West Fork is a C&R wild trout area, but they ave been working on the dam upstream; when they do this, the water goes off color and is not fun to fish.)

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Question:

i am still always amazed when i see farm raised goldens for consumption at safeway… TimW

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(AdFirmOne) writes: As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra.

<SNIP Not necessarily so, last year caught a nice 14" golden at a lake whose elevation was at 8200 ft.  Tough to find goldens in the Sierra below 10,000 ft., but they are there.  Check out Ralph Cutter’s Sierra Trout Guide.  It has all the fishable waters in the Sierra listed by county and whether a lake or a stream.  The listing not only includes what type of trout are in evidence there, but also what elevation and which topographical map it it can be found on.                                  Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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I agree that altitude is not the govering factor.  I know a lake in the norther sierra’s with goldens.  The lake is at roughly 7000′. No I won’t tell where.  It gets too much fishing preasure as it is. | |…… Seek harmony and balance in the mountains, find harmony and balance within…..

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: I agree that altitude is not the govering factor.  I know a lake in : the norther sierra’s with goldens.  The lake is at roughly 7000′. I saw a mess of Goldens for sale in my local grocery store.  I couldn’t believe it!  I thought these fish were fairly rare? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: I agree that altitude is not the govering factor.  I know a lake in : the norther sierra’s with goldens.  The lake is at roughly 7000′. I saw a mess of Goldens for sale in my local grocery store.  I couldn’t believe it!  I thought these fish were fairly rare?

Those aren’t the same "goldens" that are often sought after here.  They’re farm grown fish with almost a solid gold color the bares no resemblance to the Volcano Creek or Little Kern Golden trout.  I’ve seen some pictures of "golden" trout that have been introduced in some of the high country lakes in Wyoming and they also bare little resemblance to the High Sierra natives.  They’re complete devoid of par marks and don’t have the red fins of the V.C. or L.K. golden.   — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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I’ve seen some pictures of "golden" trout that have been introduced in some of the high country lakes in Wyoming and they also bare little resemblance to the High Sierra natives.  They’re complete devoid of par marks and don’t have the red fins of the V.C. or L.K. golden.  

That’s because they’ve grown to larger size.  I’ve caught small Goldens in Wyoming and Montana that fit your description.  The size of these smaller Wyoming trout matches the bigger California trout, and so does their coloration. Both rainbows and goldens loose their par marks as they get bigger. — -Wayne Trzyna

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Both rainbows and goldens loose their par marks as they get bigger.

Not so.  California (e.g. Kern) goldens keep the par marks through life. Matt Carey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — -Wayne Trzyna

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(AdFirmOne) writes: As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra. All the trips required at least a 8 hour hike in to get beyond the rainbows and brookies.  A short trip like yours doesn’t promise much when searching out these beautiful fish. Good luck tho. As I said, I know of one lake that contains goldens that can be reach by vehicle with sufficient ground clearance.  I also know of several others that require no more then an hour hike.  None of these are going to be high producers.  I would guess that none of these lakes are higher then 10,500′ in elevation either.  I’m not so sure that 10.5K or even 10K is some sort of magic number for Sierra Goldens.

Hi    Golden Trout were rainbow trout less than 50,000 years ago.  They evolved into goldens in the Kern River system as low as 7,000 ft. They are considered a high elevation fish largely because that was where we planted them in the mid 1800s and early 1900’s.  They have the ability to live in most waters that can support bows.    There are about a dozen roadside golden trout waters and many less than an hour from the car (don’t ask). You’ll need to do some sleuthing, but that’s half the fun!    Tight lines, Ralph —

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Hello, I tried to post something like this already, but it doesn’t seem to have made it. My family is going on a weekend trip camping and fishing.  We are looking for possible sites to find some golden trout, but with the tight constraints–we are on a 2-day weekend trip.  This limits how far we can pack in and how far from LA (where the rest of my family lives) we can go. Any information would be helpful and appreciated. Thanks, Matt Carey

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Matt      It has been a few years but about 30-40  miles north of Bishop is a lake called convict lake. It’s fising used to be outstanding. Hike above this lake they say about 3 miles and you come to some very high mountain lakes that used to have golden trout. I tried this hike once with may not so good leg and never reached these lakes but am told they are there and seen them on the maps.      I think Convict lake’s resort used to have an internet site. Look for it at any web search engine (webcrawler, altavista, infoseek, etc.). This used to be one of my favorite fishing spots. Watch the weather reports for the storms come upon this area VERY quickly. HTH Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I tried to post something like this already, but it doesn’t seem to have made it. My family is going on a weekend trip camping and fishing.  We are looking for possible sites to find some golden trout, but with the tight constraints–we are on a 2-day weekend trip.  This limits how far we can pack in and how far from LA (where the rest of my family lives) we can go. Any information would be helpful and appreciated. Thanks, Matt Carey

Response:

In ‘89 I did a trip up to Lake Mildred (or Martha, not sure of the name)…it’s the first lake in the chain above Convict. That lake produced many fish, but no goldens…Convict Lake was terribly crowded and I’m sure it hasn’t gotten any better…. I’ll be fishing in the Lone Pine/Whiteny area the 4th of July weekend…hoping to get up to some of the higher lakes in that area…I’ll let you all know what happens.

Response:

As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra. All the trips required at least a 8 hour hike in to get beyond the rainbows and brookies.  A short trip like yours doesn’t promise much when searching out these beautiful fish. Good luck tho.

Response:

There are a few places that do not require 8 hour hikes. More like 15 minutes or less. (These places should be held dear, but they do not hold large goldens-if there are such a thing). Some of these are roads approaching the Kern River drainage and some of the Sierra mountain pass roads. Mail me directly and I can give you a little more info. -Don M.

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Matt     It has been a few years but about 30-40  miles north of Bishop is a lake called convict lake. It’s fising used to be outstanding. Hike above this lake they say about 3 miles and you come to some very high mountain lakes that used to have golden trout. I tried this hike once with may not so good leg and never reached these lakes but am told they are there and seen them on the maps.

There are quite a few lakes in this area along the eastern slope of the Sierra that are about the same distance from a lake that you can drive to.  Go up over Piute pass (out of Rock Creek) and you’ll get into some good Golden Trout country as well.  In the June Lake area Gibbs and Kidney lake are about the same distance *up* as the lake above Convict lake.  There are some golden trout lakes in the Mammoth Lakes and 20 Lakes Basin (near Saddlebag Lake). I even know of a lake that you can drive to that is a bit further north that has Golden trout in it. I’m a bit reluctant to provide a lot of details about a lot of these places however.  I wouldn’t have hesitated about 3-4 years ago but with the commercialization of the net I’m afraid that I’d see a pay-per-view web site or a 1-900 number with all the Golden trout lakes for anyone (and everyone) to use to find these spots.   — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra. All the trips required at least a 8 hour hike in to get beyond the rainbows and brookies.  A short trip like yours doesn’t promise much when searching out these beautiful fish. Good luck tho.

As I said, I know of one lake that contains goldens that can be reach by vehicle with sufficient ground clearance.  I also know of several others that require no more then an hour hike.  None of these are going to be high producers.  I would guess that none of these lakes are higher then 10,500′ in elevation either.  I’m not so sure that 10.5K or even 10K is some sort of magic number for Sierra Goldens. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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Stuff Deleted… As I said, I know of one lake that contains goldens that can be reach by vehicle with sufficient ground clearance.  I also know of several others that require no more then an hour hike.  None of these are going to be high producers.  I would guess that none of these lakes are higher then 10,500′ in elevation either.  I’m not so sure that 10.5K or even 10K is some sort of magic number for Sierra Goldens. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Elevation isn’t the determining factor, as you have said. It’s the temp. and cleanness of the water. It’s just that you tend to find both at higher elevations. It also seems that you are fishing the same places I am. Please don’t post the locations. It took me years of hiking and searching to find these places. I would hate to see them become the next hot spot to go fly fishing. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

AdFirmOne sandbags: : As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve : fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra. All the trips required : at least a 8 hour hike in to get beyond the rainbows and brookies.  A : short trip like yours doesn’t promise much when searching out these : beautiful fish. Good luck tho. Nice try- Do you think the Kern is at 10.5K?  More like 6,000.  Basically, Goldens live in clean, cold water and are very sensitive to environmental impact.  There really is no altitude limit, as evidenced by their presence in many lakes and streams throughout the easter sierras.  Sure, you can hike to lakes at 9,000-10,000 ft. and catch goldens.  In fact, the DFG uses some remote lakes around cottonwood pass for hatcheries (*DO NOT* fish at these lakes- it’s illegal).  However, this does not mean that goldens aren’t found at lower elevations.  Many streams are within a few hours hike, and some lakes have parking lots a few miles from the shore- both contain goldens. Get a topo, and call some fly shops in the bishop area. Best regards, Hans — "The worst monotonous drone coming from a lectern or the most eye-splitting textbook written in turgid English is nothing in comparison to the psychological Sahara that starts right in your bedroom and spurns the horizon."         -Joseph Brodsky, from "In praise of Boredom"          delivered as a commencement address at Dartmouth College. Hans T.H. Beernink, Department of Biochemistry, University of Vermont

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Question:

Open question.  How much do trout, not sea run, move in streams and rivers. Specifically, do the fish tend to stay in a certain region or are they constantly moving up and down the river in search of good hiding and good food?  Thanks for taking the time to respond. — Aaron Wyatt Seattle, Wa. Teacher Intern, Secondary Education

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: cleese.nas.com!nwnexus!news.sprintlink.net!bethel.connected.com!hebron.conn ected.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: Connected INC — Full Server Internet Provider ™ Lines: 9 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Open question.  How much do trout, not sea run, move in streams and rivers. Specifically, do the fish tend to stay in a certain region or are they constantly moving up and down the river in search of good hiding and good food?  Thanks for taking the time to respond. — Aaron Wyatt Seattle, Wa. Teacher Intern, Secondary Education

Studies in the midwest have shown that brown trout (other than those that spend most of the year in lakes)remain in the a relatively small area (less than 1/4 mile of movement). The same fish has been observed over a two year period within the vicinity of the same rock. These observations were made from a blind constructed specifically to evaluate fish movements

Response:

How much do trout, not sea run, move in streams and rivers.

Within the Willamette River System, which consists of a large main-stem and many small tributaries, 3 basic life histories have been identified for atleast 26 populations of cutthroat trout. Some remain resident within the tributaries, and do not migrate up or down to spawn.  Another population type remains resident in the tributaries but does migrate within the tributary for the purposes of spawning.  And the last type is resident in the main-stem but migrates up the tributaries to spawn. Thomas Gilg

Response:

: Open question.  How much do trout, not sea run, move in streams and rivers. : … This question was addressed in Charlie Fox’s "This Wonderful World of Trout" to a small panel, and from memory, this is what they found (and I concur): Brown Trout move in a very limited range, unless there is a flood; Rainbows move quite freely; (although I’ve seen them ‘year to year’ -jqt) Brookies are hardly ever found DOWNSTREAM from where they are born. For Browns, it is not uncommon for some fishers to "name" lost or caught & released fish, since they tend to take up the same spot from year to year. Also, when killed, a Brown of the same size will often take up the same feeding position. A good current for a 2# Brown will hold simply that!                                                        __ John Quill Taylor                                     / / Writer at Large                                      / /   Hewlett-Packard, Storage Systems Division    __     /_/ / Boise, Idaho U.S.A.                         /_/  __ _ Telephone: (208) 396-2328 (MDT = GMT – 6)     /  \  / Snail Mail: Hewlett-Packard                    / \             11413 Chinden Blvd                 \             Boise, Idaho 83714                   _/             Mailstop 230                            _/                                                   _/       "When in doubt, do as doubters do." -jqt                   haiti, rwanda, cuba, bosnia, … we have a list,              where is our schindler?

Response:

: Open question.  How much do trout, not sea run, move in streams and rivers. : … Brown Trout move in a very limited range, unless there is a flood;

I asked a local Fish & Game biologist about this question several years ago. His answer was that browns don’t move much, often taking up the same spot year-after-year, which is what we all know as fishermen. But he then added that all hell breaks loose among big male spawners in the fall. Specifically, he mentioned several large (tagged) brown trout they found in the Beartrap canyon of the Madison one fall, that had been electroshocked the previous year in the *Ruby* river! For those not familiar with Southwest Montana, this implies a migration downstream (from the Ruby) of about forty miles, to the headwaters of the Missouri, and then another forty mile trip up the Madison, to reach the Beartrap. Now that’s a horny fish! —

Response:

For those not familiar with Southwest Montana, this implies a migration downstream (from the Ruby) of about forty miles, to the headwaters of the Missouri, and then another forty mile trip up the Madison, to reach the Beartrap. Now that’s a horny fish!

To say nothing of the various Salmon runs in Ak. which travel thousands of miles.   I’d do it!         -tgades

Response:

: : Open question.  How much do trout, not sea run, move in streams and rivers. : : … : Brown Trout move in a very limited range, unless there is a flood; : : I asked a local Fish & Game biologist about this question several years : ago. His answer was that browns don’t move much, often taking up the : same spot year-after-year, which is what we all know as fishermen. : [horny Montana browns deleted] On the other hand, the staff of Rizuto’s shop on the San Juan River in New Mexico told me that the NM wildlife people, using radio taggs on fish, found that fish there (mostly rainbows, but some browns too) move all over the special-regulation waters that reach several miles downstream from the dam.  While there are always fish in the same holding and feed lies, they are different fish.   — Political Science, Box 455029    ~  as eternal salvation — come by grace and University of Nevada, Las Vegas  ~   grace comes by art and art does not come Las Vegas, NV  89154-5029        ~   easy."                 — Norman Maclean

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