Question:

<Wonderful story snipped Russell Still euphoric, heck maybe giddy!

Welcome back. We missed you.    Signed     Fish

Response:

*thick skin* to venture here(though why that is necessary to discuss something and tranquil and relaxing as fly fishing is beyond me)

So one would think… I was born and raised near Driggs, Idaho. Driggs is located in the middle of Teton Valley in southeastern Idaho. Running right down the middle of the valley is the Teton River.

That must’ve been beautiful. Growing up I was quite oblivious of the existence of the river

Youth is wasted on the young, as a wise and no doubt old man said. I set the hook and landed the most beautiful seven-inch brown trout I had ever seen, well at least in the last ten years.

I think returning makes it all the sweeter. Still euphoric, heck maybe giddy!

Happens to me all the time. Very nice read, Russell. Thanks for sharing. Steve

Response:

<snip I was euphoric. I thanked the fish, thanked my doctor and thanked God. (There have been many other and probably more important benefits that have come from getting my eyes fixed but none have made me happier.)

Your post reminded me that I sometimes take all this good stuff for granted. I just opened the shades in my office and spent a few minutes reveling in the joy of sight. If you’ve been lurking as you say, you’ve noticed some pretty heated discussions on photography. Interesting that we could all get so wrapped up in the topic of which is better and why, while others are just glad to see *any* image. My wife bought me a fishing licence for Father’s Day.

You’ve got a keeper there! She obviously saw the joy your new-found sight brought. Congrats. I bought me some new hip waders and patched my chest waders. I have made it out a few times since with great success. Thursday evening I am headed to Idaho to take care of some family business. I will be taking my rod, vest, waders and float tube and plan on being on the Teton River very early Friday morning. That is where it all started. I can’t wait.

I await your TR. Good luck catching fish, but *that* isn’t the most important part, now is it?  :) Still euphoric, heck maybe giddy!

Keep spreading it around, my friend. You do it well. — TL, Tim

Response:

  (This is a repost of a message I sent on July 7. The original somehow   never made it out of my ISP’s server so I’m reposting with Google. A   TR will follow later.)     Because of a renewed (I’ll explain why renewed in a bit) interest in   fly-fishing, I started lurking in ROFF about a month and a half ago.   The more I observed from the banks, the more I began to wonder if I   dare wade in lest I get my head bit off. you stupid son of a bitch – just a little something to make you feel like part of the group! Welcome to ROFF! There’s a Clave this Fall at Henry’s Fork. Willi

Response:

Russell Great story. Years ago fishing Spanish Fork and hunting mulies in the oak brush foothills with an old Enfield above the powder house helped keep me a reasonably sane undergrad. When things got too weird we’d head for the railroad cafe at the Thistle junction for some pie and coffee.

The town of Thistle no longer exists. In 1983 it was wiped out by a landslide that so blocked the Spanish Fork River that it created a big lake over the town. Here’s a picture of the dam and lake. Thistle is under the water on the left/middle part of the picture. http://landslides.usgs.gov/html_files/landslides/slides/slide3.htm Here is a pretty concise description of what happened: http://www.trainweb.org/utahrails/locales/thistle.html to see the stainless steel cars of the California Zephyr coming out of the Canyon up from Denver in the snow, 100% USA built, on past thousands of sheep on the flat in Winter enclosures, and headed for Salt Lake. I just got to get back to that country someday, visit the Art Museum in Springville

A true treasure of this state. and maybe head on down to Helper in the Utah coal country.

Ah, Helper! I lived in Price from 1977 to 1979 and worked in a coal mine just north of Helper. What great country that is. Price is one of the best places that I’ve ever lived. Great people down there. Russell

Response:

Great story Russell, my best wishes for you. Do yourself a favour wear polarised glasses. That improves your sight in/on the water, but the best point is it protects your eyes. I tell you this, because I  hooked my cheek  directly under my left eye last time I was fishing. That was painful enough, can

Question:

there’s a chance some smaller schoolie stripers will still be in the river. Shad will most likely be gone, but the smallmouth action should be fantastic. Oh yeah, when Rick and I got to the dock on Sunday afternoon " Dock Lady " ( you have to meet her in person, words can’t really adequetly describe her ) … Is she the one who is in the last Sage catalog ?

Haven’t seen the latest Sage catalog but I can guarantee that’s not her.

Response:

Fishing out of Fletchers Sunday and Monday: lots of BIG hickory shad, caught on the outgoing tide-using Teeny 250 or 300 lines, 6′ hunk of 12lb test Maxima for a leader ( God bless Maxima but I hate those fucking archaic spools theyl put the stuff on ) casting slightly upstream and usually getting a hit on the start of the swing. Flies on the small side-size 6 to 8 clousers with short tails-white with gold flash and chartruese with gold flash . I was getting alot of misses till I chopped off the tails to within about 3/8" of the hook bend , after that it was Heaven.Last cast of the day Monday I hooked an American shad, about 3 or 4 times the size and heft of the hickories. Last couple years the Americans were running about as big as that species can get, up to 30"s. This one took me into my backing about 50-75′. It took a long damn time to wind all that line in after it threw the hook that’s for sure. The Americans should be starting to come on strong now, the water’s warming up and clearing. They like the stretch of water just up from Fletchers dock area, on a rising tide and then right up till slack tide. They come there to spawn. Most of the hickory action’s been on the falling tides. The female stripers are running up to 40lbs. and the cut herring/bottom fishing guys have been hauling in a bunch. I keep trying for them but all I do is lose expensive flies in the rocks. Would it be that terrible to soak a fly or two in a bucket of herring chum and then run my leader through a slip sinker and just sorta drop it over the side of the boat while I eat lunch or something ? I’ll have to sleep on that. Anyway the male stripers are expected by the end of the week and they’ll be possible to catch using ethical methods The river should be low enough for safe wading by the end of the week too if the levels keep dropping at a steady clip. Oh yeah, when my Rick and I got to the dock on Sunday afternoon " Dock Lady " ( you have to meet her in person, words can’t really adequetly describe her ) told us everyone coming off the river was pissed at us because we two flyrodders were taking shad right and left all day and they, the spinning guys were only hitting them off and on and "they said you two bastards must be doing something illegal ". Even allowing for "Dock Ladys" habit of slight exageration it still was good to hear. It’s usually the other way around. cheers, Bob nursing a painfully pleasant case of "shad elbow"

Response:

Hello East Coasters, We are catching Stripers in the Sacramento, Feather and American Rivers now too as our big spring spawning run has started (April/May/June). This is south(downstream) and north(upstream) of Sacramento. The main runs will go all the way upstream (north) to Colusa and above on the Sacramento River. We fish them wading and from boats. Some of our friends caught some Stripers on flies yesterday and today. The American Shad are just behind the Stripers and will be thick in a few weeks. PS: Thanks for bringing those Stripers and Shad over here to the west coast in 1877. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, California, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fishing out of Fletchers Sunday and Monday: lots of BIG hickory shad, caught on the outgoing tide-using Teeny 250 or 300 lines, 6′ hunk of 12lb test Maxima for a leader ( God bless Maxima but I hate those fucking archaic spools theyl put the stuff on ) casting slightly upstream and usually getting a hit on the start of the swing. Flies on the small side-size 6 to 8 clousers with short tails-white with gold flash and chartruese with gold flash . I was getting alot of misses till I chopped off the tails to within about 3/8" of the hook bend , after that it was Heaven.Last cast of the day Monday I hooked an American shad, about 3 or 4 times the size and heft of the hickories. Last couple years the Americans were running about as big as that species can get, up to 30"s. This one took me into my backing about 50-75′. It took a long damn time to wind all that line in after it threw the hook that’s for sure. The Americans should be starting to come on strong now, the water’s warming up and clearing. They like the stretch of water just up from Fletchers dock area, on a rising tide and then right up till slack tide. They come there to spawn. Most of the hickory action’s been on the falling tides. The female stripers are running up to 40lbs. and the cut herring/bottom fishing guys have been hauling in a bunch. I keep trying for them but all I do is lose expensive flies in the rocks. Would it be that terrible to soak a fly or two in a bucket of herring chum and then run my leader through a slip sinker and just sorta drop it over the side of the boat while I eat lunch or something ? I’ll have to sleep on that. Anyway the male stripers are expected by the end of the week and they’ll be possible to catch using ethical methods The river should be low enough for safe wading by the end of the week too if the levels keep dropping at a steady clip. Oh yeah, when my Rick and I got to the dock on Sunday afternoon " Dock Lady " ( you have to meet her in person, words can’t really adequetly describe her ) told us everyone coming off the river was pissed at us because we two flyrodders were taking shad right and left all day and they, the spinning guys were only hitting them off and on and "they said you two bastards must be doing something illegal ". Even allowing for "Dock Ladys" habit of slight exageration it still was good to hear. It’s usually the other way around. cheers, Bob nursing a painfully pleasant case of "shad elbow"

Response:

Question:

It’s the newbies I’m concerned about. I’ll give you a piece of advice: don’t worry about the newbies. They are a dime a dozen.  Novices have died in the outdoors for thousands of years.   Well, it’s the newbie net.ers that I’m talking about, not newbies to the backcountry. Some of these newbies could have some valuable input if they’d stick around the group.

Too big a "could."  Anyone really knowledgeable doesn’t have to stay here. The majority of posters don’t think that they are newbies (they are).   When you *know it all*, you are dead. No more data processing.

Well it’s not quite like that.    "Like a chicken playing a card game". ???   Newbie net.ers cocking their heads and giving them cards a good smart look. Still, a chicken is a bird brain.   I think Sam got the visuals.

Oh! Yeah, last time I played poker with a chicken, I lost all my feathers. Hey, I thought when she lowered her head and did that one eyed blink that she was bluffing, I swear! Need more chlorine in the gene pool.

Chickens do what chickens do best.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s the newbies I’m concerned about. I’ll give you a piece of advice: don’t worry about the newbies. They are a dime a dozen.  Novices have died in the outdoors for thousands of years.    Well, it’s the newbie net.ers that I’m talking about, not newbies to the backcountry. Some of these newbies could have some valuable input if they’d stick around the group. The majority of posters don’t think that they are newbies (they are).    When you *know it all*, you are dead. No more data processing. I have this image of a newbie wandering into traffic on the Information Superhighway, blindfolded. Better than a physical superhighway.    "Like a chicken playing a card game". ???    Newbie net.ers cocking their heads and giving them cards a good smart look. Still, a chicken is a bird brain.    I think Sam got the visuals. Yeah, last time I played poker with a chicken, I lost all my feathers. Hey, I thought when she lowered her head and did that one eyed blink that she was bluffing, I swear! Need more chlorine in the gene pool.    Ed Huesers    http://www.grandshelters.com

More likely too deep a dive in the White Russian Sea, oh well, it happens…<B stoopid G Sam

Response:

It’s the newbies I’m concerned about. I’ll give you a piece of advice: don’t worry about the newbies. They are a dime a dozen.  Novices have died in the outdoors for thousands of years.

   Well, it’s the newbie net.ers that I’m talking about, not newbies to the backcountry. Some of these newbies could have some valuable input if they’d stick around the group. The majority of posters don’t think that they are newbies (they are).

   When you *know it all*, you are dead. No more data processing. I have this image of a newbie wandering into traffic on the Information Superhighway, blindfolded. Better than a physical superhighway.    "Like a chicken playing a card game". ???

   Newbie net.ers cocking their heads and giving them cards a good smart look. Still, a chicken is a bird brain.    I think Sam got the visuals. Yeah, last time I played poker with a chicken, I lost all my feathers. Hey, I thought when she lowered her head and did that one eyed blink that she was bluffing, I swear! Need more chlorine in the gene pool.

   Ed Huesers    http://www.grandshelters.com

Response:

It’s the newbies I’m concerned about.

I’ll give you a piece of advice: don’t worry about the newbies. They are a dime a dozen.  Novices have died in the outdoors for thousands of years.  The majority of posters don’t think that they are newbies (they are). I have this image of a newbie wandering into traffic on the Information Superhighway, blindfolded.

Better than a physical superhighway.    "Like a chicken playing a card game".

??? Yeah, last time I played poker with a chicken, I lost all my feathers. Hey, I thought when she lowered her head and did that one eyed blink that she was bluffing, I swear!

Need more chlorine in the gene pool.

Response:

It’s the newbies I’m concerned about. I have this image of a newbie wandering into traffic on the Information Superhighway, blindfolded.

   "Like a chicken playing a card game".    Ed Huesers

Response:

It’s the newbies I’m concerned about. I have this image of a newbie wandering into traffic on the Information Superhighway, blindfolded.    "Like a chicken playing a card game".    Ed Huesers

Yeah, last time I played poker with a chicken, I lost all my feathers. Hey, I thought when she lowered her head and did that one eyed blink that she was bluffing, I swear! Sam

Response:

DsrtTravlr – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Valley, Sunnyside, Baker Reservoir, Gunlock, Kane Springs Wash, Rainbow Canyon, Beaver Dam State Park, Desert National Wildlife Refuge, Bird Springs Range, Monitor Valley, West Grand Canyon, Gold Strike Hot Springs, Gold Butte, Delmar Playas, Tikapoo Peak and Area 51, Sharktooth Hill, Christmas Tree Pass, Piute Springs, Cold Creek, Death Valley, Lovell Canyon, Hurricane Cliffs, Virgin Canyon, Tassi Ranch, Aquarius Plateau, Box Death Hollow Wilderness Area, Kaibab Plateau, Kolob Reservoir, River Mountain Trail, <snip, snip, snip. Need I go on?  You could go to a different place every weekend for five years and not hit the same place twice. Go to Mercury Blueprint at Sahara and Highland and get the $15 DOT Nevada State Book of Maps.  It will show you most secondary roads in Nevada.  Join an outdoors group, or hook up with some people who go out, or just get off the couch and go explore.  Nevada has the highest percentage of federal land in the continental US, and there are few fences. Of course, you might wait until the weather cools off.  And then do these things…… take plenty of water, some extra food, tools and repair items and enough warm gear.  Tell someone where you are going, and when you will be back. Leave a map with them.  Nevada has incredible search and rescue, and it is a simple matter if they know where you will be.  If something happens, just stay with your vehicle, and wait for help.  Almost everyone who has died in the desert has tried to walk out instead of staying with the car.  Learn about desert critters, plants, and flash floods….. one of which we had

yesterday. Steve, I sent a copy of this to my neice who is moving to LV.  Thanks, it’s a good long list and I especially wanted her (family) to read the extra precautionary notes you included.  Nobody understands the desert until they have lived it for awhile and finally when they think they do it will surprise them… Bill

Response:

  I use netscape which does have the capability but I choose to use my brain to filter.   It’s the newbies I’m concerned about.

I have this image of a newbie wandering into traffic on the Information Superhighway, blindfolded. Happy trails, Gary "In three words I can sum up everything I’ve learned about life: it goes on." -Robert Frost- Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

Response:

Flood the group with ON-topic posts.

   Oh, I try. I even resort to jokes once in a while. Ignore the off topic stuff. Some posters are difficult because they also post useful things. Others can be entirely ignored.

   Ack. Think of this as incentive to get a newsreader with filtering.

   I use netscape which does have the capability but I choose to use my brain to filter.    It’s the newbies I’m concerned about.    Ed Huesers

Response:

You are kidding, right?  I grew up in Las Vegas, and there are a zillion places within the three to five hours you mention where you can go and not hardly see another human.   You say you are "told" that some places are overrun with tourists.  Don’t believe everything you are told.  While it is entirely true SOME TIMES IN THE YEAR, even those places have their seasons, and going there the other times of the year is very uncrowded.  There are many many places around here where one can go camping out in the boonies on BLM land and have peace and privacy.  Just look around.   Valley, Sunnyside, Baker Reservoir, Gunlock, Kane Springs Wash, Rainbow Canyon, Beaver Dam State Park, Desert National Wildlife Refuge, Bird Springs Range, Monitor Valley, West Grand Canyon, Gold Strike Hot Springs, Gold Butte, Delmar Playas, Tikapoo Peak and Area 51, Sharktooth Hill, Christmas Tree Pass, Piute Springs, Cold Creek, Death Valley, Lovell Canyon, Hurricane Cliffs, Virgin Canyon, Tassi Ranch, Aquarius Plateau, Box Death Hollow Wilderness Area, Kaibab Plateau, Kolob Reservoir, River Mountain Trail, <snip, snip, snip. Need I go on?  You could go to a different place every weekend for five years and not hit the same place twice. Go to Mercury Blueprint at Sahara and Highland and get the $15 DOT Nevada State Book of Maps.  It will show you most secondary roads in Nevada.  Join an outdoors group, or hook up with some people who go out, or just get off the couch and go explore.  Nevada has the highest percentage of federal land in the continental US, and there are few fences.   Of course, you might wait until the weather cools off.  And then do these things…… take plenty of water, some extra food, tools and repair items and enough warm gear.  Tell someone where you are going, and when you will be back. Leave a map with them.  Nevada has incredible search and rescue, and it is a simple matter if they know where you will be.  If something happens, just stay with your vehicle, and wait for help.  Almost everyone who has died in the desert has tried to walk out instead of staying with the car.  Learn about desert critters, plants, and flash floods….. one of which we had yesterday. You can e mail me if you need any particulars.  And anyone else who reads this.  The area around here is awesome, and most people don’t even know it is there. I like it like that. Steve Pat O’Connell writes: We just moved to the Las Vegas area, though we don’t have a "permanent" home just yet–still house hunting. Summer is obviously not a good time to be outdoors here, unless we head for Mt. Charleston. What else is within a short (say within 3 to 5 hours) drive of here that’s worth visiting and hiking in summer? Zion, Bryce Canyon, etc. are that close, but I’m told are overrun with tourists. — Pat O’Connell Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints, Kill nothing but vandals…

               ~ Illegitimi Non Carborundum ~

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – then suddenly we have collectivist look-alikes invading from one side while the jackbooted sound-alikes push in from the opposite side.  There’s a movie locked up inside this scenario Dodo’s?   If you mean extinct, yes.   I can make an educated guess and say that the readership of the group is only 20% of what it was.   Ed Huesers Flood the group with ON-topic posts. Ignore the off topic stuff. Some posters are difficult because they also post useful things. Others can be entirely ignored. Think of this as incentive to get a newsreader with filtering.

Here’s the first shot: We just moved to the Las Vegas area, though we don’t have a "permanent" home just yet–still house hunting. Summer is obviously not a good time to be outdoors here, unless we head for Mt. Charleston. What else is within a short (say within 3 to 5 hours) drive of here that’s worth visiting and hiking in summer? Zion, Bryce Canyon, etc. are that close, but I’m told are overrun with tourists. — Pat O’Connell Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints, Kill nothing but vandals…

Response:

: The newsgroup rec.outdoors.national-parks was the same way until quite : recently. The posts were at least 75% political in nature. After looking at the subject list of r.o.n-p again (first time I’ve read it for a while) it seems to be back to its old self  unfortunately. There should be an alt.politics.environment newsgroup we could banish these people to, if there’s not already.

The group is named talk.environment. It is useful to know the hierarchy. It could have been talk.politics.environment. That’s not the issue.  As I informed Moore who proposed sci.environnment s.e. should be moderated and as he admitted it was an "I told you so." Can’t banish people. Nothing wrong with politics. And there’s no reason you can’t send followups there if you know how.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – then suddenly we have collectivist look-alikes invading from one side while the jackbooted sound-alikes push in from the opposite side.  There’s a movie locked up inside this scenario    "Birds Of A Feather". Lee wrote Maybe more like Hitchcock’s "The Birds"…: ) Dodo’s?    If you mean extinct, yes.    I can make an educated guess and say that the readership of the group is only 20% of what it was.    Ed Huesers

Yeah, but Ed, we’re the dedicated 20%. Survive we will. Sam Benson

Response:

then suddenly we have collectivist look-alikes invading from one side while the jackbooted sound-alikes push in from the opposite side.  There’s a movie locked up inside this scenario Dodo’s?   If you mean extinct, yes.   I can make an educated guess and say that the readership of the group is only 20% of what it was.   Ed Huesers

Flood the group with ON-topic posts. Ignore the off topic stuff. Some posters are difficult because they also post useful things. Others can be entirely ignored. Think of this as incentive to get a newsreader with filtering. Happy trails, Gary "In three words I can sum up everything I’ve learned about life: it goes on." -Robert Frost- Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

Response:

I can make an educated guess and say that the readership of the group is only 20% of what it was. I don’t know about number of readers but my reading is about 20% of what it was.

   Well, I’m basing it on our web page counter.    You guys, the core of the group, aren’t going to check our site because you’ve probably been there enough already. The lurkers are also likely to have the same situation.    It’s the newbies that’ll check it and some of them are the core group of tomorrow. All I see is just another swing of the pendulum.  It’s been both better and worse in the past.

   Yeah, I can try and believe in that but this pendulum arm must be a long one. I just wait until it passes.

   Well, it’s a long wait. I was waiting for the election to get over with all last summer. The thing about emotionally laden postings is that it’s hard to maintain righteous fervor over an extended period [with one notable exception] so they tend to flame for months then vanish.

   "Exception" noted and I have to chuckle as it seems that even he has backed off due to his posts getting lost in the pile.  It’s just as bad in other groups, right now others I’m reading are civil but that wasn’t the case last year.

   Well, I suppose it’s the fact that I used to participate in r.o.n-p. until about 2 years ago and the group was doing great. Then along they came and destroyed the group.    Now, after destroying the group, they’ve moved over here.    Ed Huesers

Response:

[snip]   If you mean extinct, yes.   I can make an educated guess and say that the readership of the group is only 20% of what it was.   Ed Huesers

I don’t know about number of readers but my reading is about 20% of what it was.  All I see is just another swing of the pendulum.  It’s been both better and worse in the past.  I just wait until it passes. The thing about emotionally laden postings is that it’s hard to maintain righteous fervor over an extended period [with one notable exception] so they tend to flame for months then vanish.   It’s just as bad in other groups, right now others I’m reading are civil but that wasn’t the case last year.

Response:

: The newsgroup rec.outdoors.national-parks was the same way until quite : recently. The posts were at least 75% political in nature. After looking at the subject list of r.o.n-p again (first time I’ve read it for a while) it seems to be back to its old self  unfortunately. There should be an alt.politics.environment newsgroup we could banish these people to, if there’s not already. Michael

Response:

: Yeah, and falling fast probably.  It really isn’t the same group it was. : Look at groups.google.com and see what the topics were back in the : 1990’s : : Only about half of the posts are related to the backcountry.  Now this : is an unmoderated group. ALL things are on topic. But whet drew me (and : I suspect most) others to this group was the work backcountry. I do not : subscribe to any political groups, because I’m not interested in : caricatured liberal and conservative attacking each other. The newsgroup rec.outdoors.national-parks was the same way until quite recently. The posts were at least 75% political in nature. Some of the group members got fed up and complained to the offending persons’ ISPs for violating the newsgroup charter and they were forced to stop posting there. I’ve heard that’s what happened anyway. Most of those posts were being cross-posted here, and many of the political posts here are from the same people that posted there. The concentration here has definitely increased since r.o.n-p was "clensed". Maybe we need a similar rebellion here? Michael — Michael Caver Photography http://photos.mcaver.com/

Response:

 I can make an educated guess and say that the readership of the group is only 20% of what it was.

Yeah, and falling fast probably.  It really isn’t the same group it was. Look at groups.google.com and see what the topics were back in the 1990’s As I wrote that I wondered myself. Here are the titles from a randomly selected day in Jult  1998: 06 Jul 1998    Where to buy white kerosene in the US?

Question:

You’re right  - I gave the thing a smack and it’s only -32 C! I’m strippin’ down! I’m in the ‘Peg – Ottawa is tropical in comparison Before you buy.

Response:

Still, -32 C is 32 degrees _below_ the freezing point of water. The only thing hatching at temperatures like that are icecubes? Herman, wondering if America is really _that_ different from Europe You’re right  - I gave the thing a smack and it’s only -32 C! I’m strippin’ down! I’m in the ‘Peg – Ottawa is tropical in comparison Before you buy.

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Yes, Herman!  Things are that different here in America.  We had a lovely *icecube* hatch last year on Upper Creek.  While the damn things are somewhat difficult to tie on a hook. The trout just love the different flavors, when you mix in a little KOOL-AID. — Opie  **Panhandling for a better tomorrow!**

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Still, -32 C is 32 degrees _below_ the freezing point of water. The only thing hatching at temperatures like that are icecubes? Herman, wondering if America is really _that_ different from Europe You’re right  - I gave the thing a smack and it’s only -32 C! I’m strippin’ down! I’m in the ‘Peg – Ottawa is tropical in comparison Before you buy. — Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Just checked the thermometer and its -41 C. The Tricos should be coming off any day now. Ottawa can get pretty cold indeed, but -41C is like -70F. You sure your thermometer is working correctly?

Jeez, your supposed to be an engineer or computer geek or something – -40C is about -40F, it’s the point where the two systems meet. Having been in Winterpeg in the middle of January more than once and having lived in Ottawa, I’ll take the ‘Peg. Peter

Response:

Just checked the thermometer and its -41 C. The Tricos should be coming off any day now.

-41 C?? Well in Fahrenheit that must be nearly… Lesse F = 9/5C + 32… That means -41C is minus fort–no wait, that can’t be right!! <g –Steve (pardon the math joke)

Response:

Ottawa can get pretty cold indeed, but -41C is like -70F.  You sure your thermometer is working correctly?

*Something’s* not working correctly, that’s for sure. HINT: Did you use a UNIX-based calculator to come up with that answer, Dave? –Steve

Response:

Jeez, your supposed to be an engineer or computer geek or something – -40C is about -40F, it’s the point where the two systems meet.

There are other aspects to 2nd childhoods than fast cars… <g — Charlie…

Response:

Just checked the thermometer and its -41 C. The Tricos should be coming off any day now. Ottawa can get pretty cold indeed, but -41C is like -70F. You sure your thermometer is working correctly? Jeez, your supposed to be an engineer or computer geek or something –

A DEMOCRATIC engineer or computer geek or something – I’ll bet he stuffs his turkey through the neck (do with that what you will) <G. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –40C is about -40F, it’s the point where the two systems meet.

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Just checked the thermometer and its -41 C. The Tricos should be coming off any day now. Sigh

Excuse my ignorance: what’s the Tricos? Chris Always willing to learn.

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Ottawa can get pretty cold indeed, but -41C is like -70F.  You sure your thermometer is working correctly? *Something’s* not working correctly, that’s for sure. HINT: Did you use a UNIX-based calculator to come up with that answer, Dave? –Steve

Yikes – did I post that? To the Windows Calculator with 9/5C+32  and – ooops – there’s where I lost it, I never added the 32…Oh well… Goes to show that posting after drinking your way through "The Big Book Of Wine At That Really Expensive Restaurant" could be hazardous to your dignity. /daytripper (recovering slowly…)

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Does it matter at that point?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just checked the thermometer and its -41 C. The Tricos should be coming off any day now. Ottawa can get pretty cold indeed, but -41C is like -70F.  You sure your thermometer is working correctly?

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Tricos are a little tiny mayfly. About a number 26. I tie them on a #24 hook but only dress the front half of the shank. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Just checked the thermometer and its -41 C. The Tricos should be coming off any day now. Sigh Excuse my ignorance: what’s the Tricos? Chris Always willing to learn.

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Dignity?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ottawa can get pretty cold indeed, but -41C is like -70F.  You sure your thermometer is working correctly? *Something’s* not working correctly, that’s for sure. HINT: Did you use a UNIX-based calculator to come up with that answer, Dave? –Steve Yikes – did I post that? To the Windows Calculator with 9/5C+32  and – ooops – there’s where I lost it, I never added the 32…Oh well… Goes to show that posting after drinking your way through "The Big Book Of Wine At That Really Expensive Restaurant" could be hazardous to your dignity. /daytripper (recovering slowly…)

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Tricos are a little tiny mayfly. About a number 26. I tie them on a #24 hook but only dress the front half of the shank. Paul

    i thought they were a type of diptera.  or is that "diphteria"? wayno, a little weak on the entomology.

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Tricos are a little tiny mayfly. About a number 26. I tie them on a #24 hook but only dress the front half of the shank. Paul    i thought they were a type of diptera.  or is that "diphteria"? wayno, a little weak on the entomology.

    wait, no; i meant "diptheria". wayno, just plain weak – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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I thought diphtheria is a disease. Diptera is the true fly family of which midges are a member. Tricorythodes is a genus of mayfly (Ephemeroptera).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tricos are a little tiny mayfly. About a number 26. I tie them on a #24 hook but only dress the front half of the shank. Paul    i thought they were a type of diptera.  or is that "diphteria"? wayno, a little weak on the entomology.     wait, no; i meant "diptheria". wayno, just plain weak

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"Brian D. Nelson" wrote I thought diphtheria is a disease. Diptera is the true fly family of which midges are a member. Tricorythodes is a genus of mayfly (Ephemeroptera).

Diphtheria is a disease, just like flyfishing. Ernie

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Diphtheria is a disease, just like flyfishing. Ernie

Then I hope I don’t catch it (the diphtheria, that is) because, like flyfishing, there is no cure (except to go fishing, of course!). — Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

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Diptera = two wings. Usually the critters that bite, or if not look too much like those not to swat them. Grammatical codswallop, but I guess you get the point. Herman Shit, I think I inhaled.. Tricos are a little tiny mayfly. About a number 26. I tie them on a #24 hook but only dress the front half of the shank. Paul     i thought they were a type of diptera.  or is that "diphteria"? wayno, a little weak on the entomology.

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

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Herman,   The trico is closely related to a British insect called the Treacle (look up the taxonomy, but as you can tell by the name, they are closely related).  Though both are often mentioned in Winter settings, but at -40 Centigrade or Fahrenheit, they bear a striking similarity, i.e. they don’t move a whole bunch.              Frank – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, Herman!  Things are that different here in America.  We had a lovely *icecube* hatch last year on Upper Creek.  While the damn things are somewhat difficult to tie on a hook. The trout just love the different flavors, when you mix in a little KOOL-AID. — Opie  **Panhandling for a better tomorrow!** Still, -32 C is 32 degrees _below_ the freezing point of water. The only thing hatching at temperatures like that are icecubes? Herman, wondering if America is really _that_ different from Europe You’re right  - I gave the thing a smack and it’s only -32 C! I’m strippin’ down! I’m in the ‘Peg – Ottawa is tropical in comparison Before you buy. — Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Before you buy.

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That’s my kind of insect.. I don’t move much at -40 C either. Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Herman,   The trico is closely related to a British insect called the Treacle (look up the taxonomy, but as you can tell by the name, they are closely related).  Though both are often mentioned in Winter settings, but at -40 Centigrade or Fahrenheit, they bear a striking similarity, i.e. they don’t move a whole bunch.              Frank

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but here in Montana, Tricos hatch in August, not wintertime. Fill me in on the Treacle. I’ve never heard of it and cannot tell by the name that they are closely related (other than the "Tr").

Herman,   The trico is closely related to a British insect called the Treacle (look up the taxonomy, but as you can tell by the name, they are closely related).  Though both are often mentioned in Winter settings, but at -40 Centigrade or Fahrenheit, they bear a striking similarity, i.e. they don’t move a whole bunch.              Frank

– Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

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That’s my kind of insect.. I don’t move much at -40 C either.

I experienced -40 one time…actually it was -44 F.  At that temperature you had BETTER keep moving!  Trust me on this one.       Wolfgang digging out from under 13" of new snow this morning

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Just checked the thermometer and its -41 C. The Tricos should be coming off any day now. Sigh Before you buy.

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Just checked the thermometer and its -41 C. The Tricos should be coming off any day now.

Ottawa can get pretty cold indeed, but -41C is like -70F.  You sure your thermometer is working correctly?

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Question:

Having spent a couple enjoyable afternoons casting around on Chittenango Creek, I’m wondering if there are stretches that make more sense for fly fishing than others.  I’ve been drifting nymphs in the fast water within a mile below the falls, mostly because the lower stretches have numerous posted signs. Are there any public areas I’m missing above or below the village?  How about above the falls?  Thanks in advance. DS

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DS, I didn’t know Chittenango Creek was open this time of year.  Well anyway, there is a public fishing area above the falls a little ways that I’ve never had much luck at but it might be worth a try.  I’ve never had any problem with posted land along the stream, the only area that’s posted that I know of that prevents access is near the concrete blocks with the cable strung between them. If you drive downstream from the falls on the highway the first left hand turn on a gravel rd ( I can’t remember the name) will allow pretty easy access.  Downstream from the gravel road there are plenty of nice pools and riffles that hold some decent fish but can be a little hard to maneuver around when summer rolls around and the area gets more overgrown. I’ve never fished much in the village but have seen many others.  Check out the Yankee Fly shop in the village the owner would probably know more than I. I have to say that Chittenango creek is one of my favorite streams the entire area below the falls has plenty of fish. Hope this helps. Wayne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having spent a couple enjoyable afternoons casting around on Chittenango Creek, I’m wondering if there are stretches that make more sense for fly fishing than others.  I’ve been drifting nymphs in the fast water within a mile below the falls, mostly because the lower stretches have numerous posted signs. Are there any public areas I’m missing above or below the village?  How about above the falls?  Thanks in advance. DS

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Question:

I just stumbled on to a great new stream a half hour from my cabin. I’m not telling where it is, of course. (If anyone wants to visit the Stanley area I’ll show it to you.) This is a nearly perfect mountain meadow creek — nice slow dry-fly water — which is a change of pace from the fast-flowing freestone rivers that dominate the landscape here. It has a lot of wildlife, too, which I like. As I walked to the creek there were three Swainson’s hawks in the air and I spooked a pair of Sandhill Cranes and a deer. The walking is treacherous because of numerous beaver projects. There wasn’t another soul in sight. The problem is that I didn’t catch any fish. I saw plenty, though. They came in two sizes: tiny and humongous. It was a problem keeping the tiny ones from spoiling the float to the humongous ones. There were many trout holding near the bank that must have been four pounds and up, easy. They rejected every offering. I crawled on my belly to the bank to avoid spooking them (which is ridiculously easy to do on this creek — spooking, I mean), and basically went through my fly boxes. I’d like to think they just weren’t feeding because a big thunderstorm was moving in. I just watched them for awhile and they didn’t look like they were feeding. This creek is now my project. It’s difficult sight fishing for large prey. BTW, on the drive home, over the pass, I saw that it had snowed. Snow on August 4! — Those who say do not know; those who know do not say. — Lao Tsu, who must have been a fisherman. something bogus to avoid spam)

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I just stumbled on to a great new stream a half hour from my cabin. I’m not telling where it is, of course. (If anyone wants to visit the Stanley area I’ll show it to you.) This is a nearly perfect mountain meadow creek — nice slow dry-fly water — which is a change of pace from the fast-flowing freestone rivers that dominate the landscape here. It has a lot of wildlife, too, which I like. As I walked to the creek there were three Swainson’s hawks in the air and I spooked a pair of Sandhill Cranes and a deer. The walking is treacherous because of numerous beaver projects. There wasn’t another soul in sight. The problem is that I didn’t catch any fish. I saw plenty, though.

Today I figured out how to fish this creek. It was great! It fished real well with #8 hoppers during the heat of the afternoon. I walk along the high banks looking for big fish. They seem to hang out together in groups of about 2 to 4 or so, but you also see single fish. If there are small fish around there are never any big fish. There must be a lot of cannibalism going on. (I’ll have to try some streamers next time.) Once I see them they’ve almost certainly seen me and have spooked, no matter how careful I am. In fact, sometimes I deliberately spook them because they’re holding in an undercut bank where I can’t see them. Then I have to wait five minutes or so, well back from the bank. After they’ve rested I creep to the bank about 40 feet upstream from them and present the fly downstream. These fish don’t seem to be all that selective about flies and this place is very lightly fished (I’ve never seen anyone there), but the water is perfectly clear and smooth and 7x tippets are called for. It seemed to be best when there was a bit of a breeze to make ripples on the surface. I got my three best cutthroats of the season today. The largest was maybe 20". Well, OK, 19". Also saw a Peregrine Falcon real close. — Those who say do not know; those who know do not say. — Lao Tsu, who must have been a fisherman. something bogus to avoid spam)

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I just stumbled on to a great new stream a half hour from my cabin.

(terrific little narrative snipped) I got my three best cutthroats of the season today. The largest was maybe 20". Well, OK, 19". Also saw a Peregrine Falcon real close. — Those who say do not know; those who know do not say. — Lao Tsu, who must have been a fisherman. something bogus to avoid spam)

    god, wulffie, what a world you live in.  congratulations. wayno

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Question:

It’s easy, tell your wife that in your OLD AGE you can’t throw the heavier 4, 6 and 8 wts. You need the lighter 3, 5 and 7 wts. You try this first and let me know if it works. Good luck Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m giving a lot away about age here, but my very first fly rod wasn’t rated for line weight. It was rated for diameter. "H" was the small diameter; "A" was as thick as you could get. HCH would be a double taper, with "C" being the middle diameter. Density wasn’t mentioned, nor was weight. So rods might cast an HCH floating line, but an HEH (!) sinker. And you could really only tell by trial and error. As you might guess, the weight system was and is a godsend. When I bought my first weight-rated rod, the generally-recommended line for trout stream fishing was a 6. Naturally, that’s where I started. Over the years I’ve accumulated a "kangaroo quiver" of rods. That is, line weights 2, 4, 6 and 8 (hopping over the odd numbered line weights). Covers most every situation I face. At this point, that collection is pretty complete. I’ve noticed though, that 5-weights, 3-weights, 7-weights, etc. have been getting a lot more mention in postings here, in magazine articles, and so forth. I think someone starting now would probably be in the odd-numbered weights? Is there a reason for this? More importantly, is there any way I can use this as a way to convince my wife that I need 3, 5, 7 and 9-weight rods?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m giving a lot away about age here, but my very first fly rod wasn’t rated for line weight. It was rated for diameter. "H" was the small diameter; "A" was as thick as you could get. HCH would be a double taper, with "C" being the middle diameter. Density wasn’t mentioned, nor was weight. So rods might cast an HCH floating line, but an HEH (!) sinker. And you could really only tell by trial and error. As you might guess, the weight system was and is a godsend. When I bought my first weight-rated rod, the generally-recommended line for trout stream fishing was a 6. Naturally, that’s where I started. Over the years I’ve accumulated a "kangaroo quiver" of rods. That is, line weights 2, 4, 6 and 8 (hopping over the odd numbered line weights). Covers most every situation I face. At this point, that collection is pretty complete. I’ve noticed though, that 5-weights, 3-weights, 7-weights, etc. have been getting a lot more mention in postings here, in magazine articles, and so forth. I think someone starting now would probably be in the odd-numbered weights? Is there a reason for this? More importantly, is there any way I can use this as a way to convince my wife that I need 3, 5, 7 and 9-weight rods?

Simply put-yes,no. Actually Most people are like you and me, evens. However I do have 3, 5, 7 also. Because most people started out even, there is a large market for odds. Magazines sell adds, adds sell products. Writters are paid by magazines nuff said. In my case I bought a 7.5′ 3wt for bream, the 8wt for bass, 7wt for salt or big trout and 5wt for average to big trout. If you get the cheaper rods and spend the difference on flowers you gat a chance.                                                        John Popp                                                    in Sanford Fl.

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I think someone starting now would probably be in the odd-numbered weights? Is there a reason for this? More importantly, is there any way I can use this as a way to convince my wife that I need 3, 5, 7 and 9-weight rods?

  There is a reason for it:  materials.  WIth today’s carbon-fibre rods, a five weight can carry the workload that a six weight used to, but you benefit from the additional touch of the lighter rod, and also fromthe fact that it’s, well, lighter.  Your arm doesn’t get as tired.   Does that mean you should go load up on odd numbers…man, I’m not gonna be the man to face your wife with that one.

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I’m giving a lot away about age here, but my very first fly rod wasn’t rated for line weight. It was rated for diameter. "H" was the small diameter; "A" was as thick as you could get. HCH would be a double taper, with "C" being the middle diameter. Density wasn’t mentioned, nor was weight. So rods might cast an HCH floating line, but an HEH (!) sinker. And you could really only tell by trial and error. As you might guess, the weight system was and is a godsend. When I bought my first weight-rated rod, the generally-recommended line for trout stream fishing was a 6. Naturally, that’s where I started. Over the years I’ve accumulated a "kangaroo quiver" of rods. That is, line weights 2, 4, 6 and 8 (hopping over the odd numbered line weights). Covers most every situation I face. At this point, that collection is pretty complete. I’ve noticed though, that 5-weights, 3-weights, 7-weights, etc. have been getting a lot more mention in postings here, in magazine articles, and so forth. I think someone starting now would probably be in the odd-numbered weights? Is there a reason for this? More importantly, is there any way I can use this as a way to convince my wife that I need 3, 5, 7 and 9-weight rods?

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Question:

Sounds like you need a chill pill.If you don’t want to read it don’t click on it. Sometimes I see some new or even good Things that has been posted by Manufacters or Tackle shops.I don’t guess it was you that posted the following.      FLY FISHIN’ LURE FOR SALE! Newsgroups:   rec.outdoors.fishing [More Headers] [Subscribe to rec.outdoors.fishing]<Picture make offer. never been used. nothin’ wrong with it. refunds available email me you adress if you interested ill deal with you the amount your willing to pay danyrat  TRYING TO SELL SOMETHING  IN THE NEWS GROUP ARE YOU!!!   GEEZE GET A LIFE <’(((<  Work is for people that don’t like to fish <’(((<

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DITTO!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds like you need a chill pill.If you don’t want to read it don’t click on it. Sometimes I see some new or even good Things that has been posted by Manufacters or Tackle shops.I don’t guess it was you that posted the following.      FLY FISHIN’ LURE FOR SALE! Newsgroups:   rec.outdoors.fishing [More Headers] [Subscribe to rec.outdoors.fishing]<Picture make offer. never been used. nothin’ wrong with it. refunds available email me you adress if you interested ill deal with you the amount your willing to pay danyrat  TRYING TO SELL SOMETHING  IN THE NEWS GROUP ARE YOU!!!   GEEZE GET A LIFE <’(((<  Work is for people that don’t like to fish <’(((<

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I don’t know about Danyrat, but some of the best vendors I’ve found have come from the newsgroups. The lure manufacturers who do sales over the Internet make stuff about 999% better than the mass market junk. Matthew Carter "Fishing with Matt" http://www.albany.net/~buzzbait/fishing/index.htm

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Thanks Buzzbait, I guess its us little folk that really keep things going. After all if it weren’t for us ,where would those big companies come from.Hell everything starts out as an idea. Oh yea while yer at it, how bout stoppin by The RodCrafters Journal. Wer’e small and trying to grow. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2865 The RodMaker

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Question:

We’re pleased and excited to announce the birth of a brand new and very different quarterly publication covering the woods and waters of the Salmon River/Eastern Lake Ontario area. As a logical extension of our popular WEB site ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’ we’ll be visiting "The Fly Zone" with Fran Verdoliva, checking out "The Tackle Box" with Jim Dence, following Peter’s wanderings in his "Thompson At Large" column, getting "A View from the Treestand" with yours truly, locating and evaluating country real estate with Christine Nixon, finding out what’s hot and what’s not with Fred David, locating cool new fishing links compliments of Jim Walker, snow sledding the Tug Hill Plateau, visiting with DEC biologists, local taxidermists, antique shops, our salmon and trout hatchery, state forests and parks, and so much more! We plan to hit the presses in late June, and be available free at local and out-of-state sport shops by July 1. Yours in the Outdoors, Bill — Bill Fling                     Tel. (315) 298-3044 SALMON RIVER ANGLERS LODGE     FAX  (315) 298-2619 P.O. Box 353                   Rt. 13, Rome Road Pulaski, NY 13142-0353   ‘SALMON RIVER/LAKE ONTARIO SPORTFISHING REPORTS’             ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’

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As a logical extension of our popular web site ‘http://www.salmon-river.com, we’re excited to announce the beginnings of our print publication "The Salmon River/Lake Ontario Experience." Scheduled to be in selected sport shops on July 1, SRLOE has been designed to be different. Upbeat, in-depth, accurate and professional coverage of the area’s woods and waters is what you’ll find from cover to cover. Visit Fran Verdoliva’s ‘Fly Zone’ Follow artist, guide and author Peter Thompson in ‘Thompson At Large" Master Angler Bill Ferman will show you his "Rivers and Creeks" I’ll share my "View From The Treestand" with you hunting folks Herald Journal columnist, Fred David, will tell you what’s hot and what’s not Sample some wild turkey recipes at "Laurie’s Smokehouse" Check out some cool fishing and hunting links courtesy of Jim Walker See what’s new in Jim Dense’s "Tackle Box" Visit some back country real estate with Christine Nixon Hit the trails on your snowsled or X-country skis, jig some perch through the ice, call in your first tom, check out the trout and salmon hatchery at Altmar or hear what our DEC personnel have to say. You get the picture. EVERYTHING our area has to offer-year round. If your favorite sport shop doesn’t have copies by July 1, ask them to have us send them some. Yours in the outdoors, Bill — Bill Fling                     Tel. (315) 298-3044 SALMON RIVER ANGLERS LODGE     FAX  (315) 298-2619 P.O. Box 353                   Rt. 13, Rome Road Pulaski, NY 13142-0353   ‘SALMON RIVER/LAKE ONTARIO SPORTFISHING REPORTS’             ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’

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Question:

I related in an earlier post that I have a pair of Simms micro-fiber that I got in January and that I’m happy with them so far but – - – -I picked up a copy of the April issue of Fly Rod and Reel magazine today.  This issue includes an article about "breathable" waders in which the author describes his experiences with field testing six pairs of new waders.  The one big problem that he found with them was a tendency to develop pinhole leaks.  One pair leaked "out of the box".  A couple of more developed leaks within 20-30 hours of use.  The "best" pair developed the first leak after about 100 hours of use.   None of the leaks were in the seams.  All were due to punctures of the fabric and membrane. I’ve worn mine on about five or six trips this year with no problems but I’m extremely careful around briars and the like. Johnny

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That’s all very learned, and persuasive, but what about the perhaps majority of times when one is not actually in water up to one’s cheeks — tummy-crawling up to a choice pool, hiking the mile along the old rail bed to the next less people-populated stretch, and so on?  That’s when I find the added weight (of alternative materials) and the moisture-inside problem most irritating.  So, I’ll set up a different kind of question: does the transpiration leave the sweat-salt behind (I assume it does), and if so is this a Good Thing?

Dan, I doubt there is a clear answer. However, it is unlikely that the salt and oils from the sweat traverse the Goretex effectively since they would not be transported on water vapor molecules. If there is any transport would relate to the pore size in the fabric and the size of the salt or oil molecules or aggregates. Over time they probably build up if not contained in the liner clothing underneath the Gortex and impair the water vapor exchange by clogging the holes. This may relate to the previous post suggesting to keep it clean. Gortex, in theory, is a perfect breathable fabric. In real life, my experience has been that it is less than perfect but does offer some advantages because of its breathability. I think if you were to push any of the underlying conditions to extremes then the Goretex would not perform. For example, when skiing very hard and generating mass quantities of sweat in extremely cold weather a layer of ice will form inside my Gortex jacket. Presumably the water vapor hit the temperature gradient at the inside surface of the jacket, condensed and froze. Another example would be excessive perspiration under generally average conditions. The exchange of water vapor through the fabric is through diffusion. As long as the water vapor concentration is lower outside then exchange will occur (I doubt it would work in a steam bath). This exchange is rate limited by the number and size of the pores. If your sweat-water vapor production exceeds this maximum rate for vapor transpiration it will get very humid inside the waders. Water will then condense depending on the temperature (this interaction between humidity and temperature is called the dew point; ie. the temp. at which condensate forms for a given air water content.  Thus, the intensity of exercise, the persons propensity to perspire and the temperature of the environment are all factors in your ultimate comfort. In addition, walking may help move air in and out of the top of the waders helping the loss of water vapor considerably but may be offset by the increased exercise. You did not mention if you were belly crawling through thick brush or mud. Also the level of excitement based on how "choice" the pool is may be a factor. Certainly this would alter the equation. Similarly falling in the river would require sophisticated mathematical modeling to reach an answer and would depend on the initial condition assumptions. For instance was the fall a "melt down" and was the person able to keep the flyrod arm above water or was it a head first plunge (probably would require invoking chaos theory here) and did he/she have to swim the next rapid downstream? A long fishless winter seems to lead to considering these imponderables. I am off to Telluride for a science meeting and to telemark ski, I’ll think more on this on the lifts. Best regards. Jon

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Besides the cost, is there any downside to gore-tex (breathable) waders? First, ask yourself what Gore-Tex does.  It is a semi-permiable teflon membrane, too small to let water pass, but will allow water vapor to. As far as breathability, Gore-Tex will NOT push warm water vapor from YOU into the water in which you are standing.  Thermodynamically, this is prohibitive.  (Think about it: nature loves and goes to disorder. Forcing your sweat vapor out of a mixture of air and into an environment already full of water will not happen.  Never in the history of the universe has this Spontaneously happend)  Gore-tex will allow your waders to dry from the inside and out, however in a short amount of time.  This means no more clammy feet from yesterday’s wading.  Also, if the Gore-tex is to fuction in a breathable mode, it must be the sole water barrier.  Any other barrier would retard air flow and make Gore-Tex useless.  If your membrane is damaged in some way, it will be much harder to repair.  Thank-you. That is all. Jason Beary

I dont want to argue with thermo dynamics, but I think that you are dead wrong. I have used Gore-Tex a lot riding motor cycles in _heavy_ rain ( we have loads of that during a typical Swedish summer and it really keeps the water out and lets the sweat evaporate. I can asure you that during these conditions you will normally get soaking wet just as fast as if you took a bath with your clothes on. I really can’t understand your reasoning either. It would be valid for a system without a membrane, but the membrane does just what you say: lets water molecules pass and keeps water in liquid form out. This is due to the surface tension of the water. The water on the outside will have a lower temperature than the the fisher on the inside of the membrane and this is the key to why there will be more molecules going out through the membrane than in. This leads to two things: 1) Don’t take away the water tension. You may do this by letting the Gore-Tex get dirty. So keep your waders clean. 1) Don’t wade in water warmer than your skin temperature ( ~28 C ) using Gore-Tex waders. /KK  Kjell K Kernen – More or less sane.

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Besides the cost, is there any downside to gore-tex (breathable) waders? I assume that the degree of insulation required can be regulated by the clothes worn underneath. Is this reasonable? Thanks

Response:

Hi Jerry-    I hate to sound so cut and dry, but you are dead wrong. Not only does GoreTex breath underwater, it does it very well. Water logged polypro thermal underwear will dry out while wading in waist deep water under GoreTex waders. That is a lot of water for your body to vaporize and for your waders to dispell, but GoreTex waders do it. From first hand, real life (repeated) experience I can state this as a fact.    I would urge you to get out from under your book learned "facts" and test your theories under real conditions before making such pronouncements to the world. It would be a shame if someone read your words and made a fishing decision based on your "information".    Tight lines, Ralph Ralph Cutter, California School of Flyfishing. http://www.flyline.com

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