Question:

Petah: and wait till you see my version of the GRW

Carrie Stevens beatcha to it.  She calls it the Green Ghost.  <g Dave

Response:

Petah: and wait till you see my version of the GRW Carrie Stevens beatcha to it.  She calls it the Green Ghost.  <g Dave

ya, OK, no problem being one-upped by Carrie – but that pirate guy – sheesh. and this time, don’t buy out Lakewood’s entire supply of GGs.  Leave some for the guy who knows how to use it  <BSEG Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Petah: and wait till you see my version of the GRW Carrie Stevens beatcha to it.  She calls it the Green Ghost.  <g ya, OK, no problem being one-upped by Carrie – but that pirate guy – sheesh. and this time, don’t buy out Lakewood’s entire supply of GGs.  Leave some for the guy who knows how to use it  <BSEG

Thanks for thinking of me, Peter, but I tie my own. /daytripper (And leave HWMNBN out of this!

Response:

That’s my home water you’re talking about, Dave. Great to hear you had some good fishing. The Middle Fork from Indian Creek was the pits three or four weeks ago (for the reasons you mentioned), but the tributary fishing was superb. We missed you at the Yellowstone Clave. Despite (or maybe because of) various intolerable provocations and slights, I can’t recall of week when I had more fun. (Or caught a bigger fish Next time. San Juan in January? Meet you at the Kiddie Hole? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

[good time snipped] Dave LaCourse

Sounds like a great time – see you in a few weeks.  BTW, the granddaughter will out fish you too.  :) and wait till you see my version of the GRW. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

<snipped awesome TR Next year Joanne and I will do Montana, perhaps with our 12 year old grand-daughter.  If we arrive on your doorstep with our 32 foot land yacht, Warren, I expect a cold beer, a big smile, and directions to the nearest trout waters.

I’ll leave a light on a cold one in the fridge for you.  I’ll make sure to leave a trout or two for you too.  I took lessons from Troutmaster Willi during the Clave so don’t expect many fish. . . . — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

Response:

I’ll leave a light on a cold one in the fridge for you.

                /                and still need more sleep. . . . . . — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

Response:

I’ll leave a light on a cold one in the fridge for you.                 /                and still need more sleep. . . . . .

Now, Warren, the biggest mistake people make when drinking premium beers (not Bud) is to drink them when they’re too cold. A light on a cold one might be just the thing. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Now, Warren, the biggest mistake people make when drinking premium beers (not Bud) is to drink them when they’re too cold. A light on a cold one might be just the thing.

Damn mother freakin’ confuser!  It’s out to get me, I swear! — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

Response:

rw writes: Next time. San Juan in January? Meet you at the Kiddie Hole?

I’m planning on the SJ.  Haven’t told the Chief of Naval Ops yet, but I’m going.  And, you can believe I will not even wade through the Kiddie Hole.  Why anyone would want to catch those pathetic fish is beyond me.  I had planned on the Jellystone Clave, but made the Idaho reservations early.  I would have been out a lot of money if I didn’t follow through. Dave

Response:

In the past I have taken a grandson to Labrador for big brookies and landlocked salmon.  This year we went to Idaho for cutthroats.  I made the reservations before the Western Clave’s dates were set, so I missed it – we were in Idaho the same week. We arrived late Sunday afternoon aboard the owner’s Cesna 206.  Six cylinders, turbo-charged, putting out 310 hp.  Quite the aircraft. Wapiti Meadows Ranch in on Johnson Creek, south of Yellow Pine.  I was surprised to see chinook salmon in the creek.  Lots of them, and  all had been tagged by biologists.  They traveled about 900 miles up-stream, a 3-4 month trip, from the ocean to spawn and then die.  I was told that their numbers have increased over the past few years, so there is hope for the Chinook (King) salmon in this watershed. We fished Johnson Creek (skinny water this time of the year), the East Fork of the South Fork above Johnson Creek, and the East of the South below the confluence of Johnson.  Even though the water was skinny compared to what we are accustomed to, we caught many cutts on dries and nymphs.  When we first fished the East of the South, Brian was into his fifth rainbow or cutt before I had the water figured out.  He was up-stream of me fishing with the guide.  I was amazed to see him using an enormous Royal Wulff – must have been at least a size 10.   Small nymphs worked, but it seemed that the bigger ones worked better.  I caught most of my fish on a large yellow stone fly, but the dreaded Green Rock Worm also took a few, including the biggest of the trip – a cutt about 17 inches.   We were scheduled to fly into the Middle Branch of the Salmon at Indian Creek on Wednesday.  However, a very bad storm hit the area Monday night, dumping several inches of rain on the area. Four miles above Indian Creek is Pistol Creek.  There has been a fire on Pistol Creek for several weeks, so when the rains came they washed the ash into the creek and it was then dumped into the Middle Fork.  The water on Tuesday and Wednesday was a dirty gray.  We flew into the Middle Fork on Thursday after hearing that it was fishable. We walked up-stream about 2 miles to a large pool only to find it un-fishable.  The water was so cloudy that visibility was about two feet.  Downstream of Indian Creek the water was much better and we immediately go into some nice cutts.  My first cutt on this water had such vivid red colors that I thought it was a Rainbow. It was about 14 inches and absolutely beautiful.  The cutts on the other waters we fished had a green back and not much red (except for the "cut throat"), but this fish was brilliant.   After many fish caught and released, we settled into camp and made a "whiteman’s" campfire.  Our guide Andy grilled some steaks and baked some potatoes while I got into the white wine.  I took several pictures of my 16 year old grandson holding a beer can.  His mother has yet to see the pictures! <g.    We stayed up until about 11 p.m. watching the fire and observing the stars.  Life is good

Question:

    No, I’m not referring to the excellent book of the same name. I just got this cut and paste in an e-mail from my uncle. There is no indication that the guy was fishing with flies, but I thought the article would be of interest to the group. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Journal) about the truth on the shark attack here on Pensacola Beach, the truth is coming out!  There is a reason that the "hero" of the attack that wrestled that 7 foot shark to shore is not giving any interviews, and is hard to find.  There is a reason that this 7 foot shark was in 2 feet of water, and there is a reason that the family is "acting funny" about taking money from those that want to help….here it is…..hard truth…Sit down…. THE UNCLE THAT WRESTLED THE SHARK ASHORE WAS FISHING FOR SHARKS, HAD IT ON A LINE AND HAD BEEN FIGHTING IT FOR TWO HOURS PLUS. The unidentified stranger that helped him also helped him fight the fish to shore.  When the shark got into two feet of water, the kids all ran into the water in jubilation and the shark lunged from off the ground and hit Jessie Arbogast twice, took his arm off and bit into his leg.  !!!!!!! The man had CHUM in the water, and heavy tackle built to fish for sharks. His nephew got bit because the entire family went into the water trying to wrestle the fish to land.  There is big money on a shark that size. THIS IS THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH The press has suppressed the real truth, because they are afraid that it will effect the contributions for Jessie and the uncle is so filled with guilt, he has tried to commit suicide once already….Now it all makes sense.  NO MAN is going to wrestle a shark that large to shore in two feet of water, that is one powerful animal, and they had cut the cable, and hid the rods by the time the Medic’s got there.  The ranger that shot the shark testified that the shark still had the hook in his mouth and "put up a big fight because his mouth was all bloody and torn up"….(that is why the shark had blood all over it’s mouth in the TV photo’s, it was it’s own blood !!) I am not lessening the horror of the event.  Jessie did get an arm bit off and is going to recover, but I am tired of Pensacola Beach taking it in the shorts because of the "whole truth not being told"….The money, in my opinion would still come in, and the uncle will have to accept that it was a tragic accident and a mistake.

Response:

No, I’m not referring to the excellent book of the same name. I just got this cut and paste in an e-mail from my uncle. There is no indication that the guy was fishing with flies, but I thought the article would be of interest to the group.

Saw this in the Urban Legends web page-they said not true.  Hope not, anyway….

Response:

THE UNCLE THAT WRESTLED THE SHARK ASHORE WAS FISHING FOR SHARKS, HAD IT ON A LINE AND HAD BEEN FIGHTING IT FOR TWO HOURS PLUS.

Not sure about the veracity of that report but at least one network news program did present a brief story about tourists in that area chumming sharks, not necessarily to fish for them but to gawk at them. Mu

Response:

Question:

I have guide trips booked on the Bitterroot and Beaverhead in late August. Some of the fly shop reports say don’t bother going. My guides say there will be plenty of water and that the Bitterroot will start having more water in the next few days from dam releases. What is the real story?? Thanks.

Response:

It’ll be worth it no matter what. One of the more beautiful places in the world you can spend time sitting in a boat. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have guide trips booked on the Bitterroot and Beaverhead in late August. Some of the fly shop reports say don’t bother going. My guides say there will be plenty of water and that the Bitterroot will start having more water in the next few days from dam releases. What is the real story?? Thanks.

Response:

The Beaverhead is absolutely not fishable!  Just kidding, actually there have been some good reports.  It looked easier to fish from a boat than wading though. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Fishable from ‘dam releases’??? The Bitterroot is a freestone. There is Painted Rocks Reservoir but it’s not a large body of water and I don’t think they are going to increase the release from it any time soon (at least till rain and/or September comes. I even question it then. There is still water in the river but the lower portion is less than half its normal flow. FWP has already requested people not fish or restrict their fishing to early morning/late evening. What with the dry conditions and all, don’t be surprised if they temporarily ban fishing. The Blackfoot, for example, reached it’s ‘drought implementation plan’ level yesterday. Now they are asking people to stop irrigating, etc. so they can keep a minimum flow in there for the fish. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have guide trips booked on the Bitterroot and Beaverhead in late August. Some of the fly shop reports say don’t bother going. My guides say there will be plenty of water and that the Bitterroot will start having more water in the next few days from dam releases. What is the real story?? Thanks.

Response:

Question:

Is there such an event sceduled and what is it going to consist of. Central Coast Bob

Response:

Robert, Yes, there is such an event.  Cost is $25.00 per individual and there will be many activities.  If you are the Bob I’m thinking about, you can just stop by Central Coast Fly Fishing on Carmel Valley Road and pick up a flyer on the "conclave" with all the goodies and costs listed. Bob Moss Landing, Ca. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there such an event sceduled and what is it going to consist of. Central Coast Bob

Response:

Is there such an event sceduled and what is it going to consist of. Central Coast Bob

Try this link  http://www.calflytech.com/nccfff/conclave/index.html I’ll be there tying Saturday afternoon, — Doug Knight                            metalfab<atpacbell.net Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $500.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

Response:

Is there such an event sceduled and what is it going to consist of. Central Coast Bob

Hi All, This is an annual event at North Shore Lake Tahoe. You can sit face to face with some of the best west coast fly tyers and fly fishers. You can watch them tie and talk fishing. It is a  fabulous time for all interested in the sport. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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Question:

I’d like to come along on the next cruise if I could please, for the food if  nothing else! Sounds wonderful, and what short cruising is all about. Peggy Carr

Response:

The penultimate weekend of our sailing season was glorious. With no guests scheduled, we thought to anchor out Saturday night under the cliffs of Upper Nyack, in the Tappan Zee. Saturday morning began with a visit to the Union Square Greenmarket for provisions. For the trip, we came away with a piece of codfish, cooking and salad tomatoes, onion, Rocambole garlic, purple Anaheim pepper and a yellow one from an untagged basket, salad greens I don’t even know the names of, and little yellow-fleshed fingerling potatoes. We got off the dock at 1110. The tide was on the second half of the flood, running north at 1.5 kts near the marina(just south of the Holland Tunnel), with slack in about two to three hours. The slack travels north, getting to Tarrytown over an hour later. The wind was south, extremely light. With the main bairly keeping steerageway, we hoisted our half-ounce chute. 1,000 square feet of almost-imaginary gossamer nylon, it filled and lifted immediately. It would draw the boat close to the speed of the wind, so any fluctuation in wind strength would cause it to sag, but it kept us going a little faster than the tide. 1210 At the 79th Street boat basin, a northeast breeze came up, about 10 kts. Chute down, jib up, sheeted to rail outside lifelines. This made it possible to make and handle sandwiches. Farm-grown atlantic salmon with horseradish mayonnaise and capers on sourdough. I patched a small hole I had seen while the chute was flying. This old sail (1984) has about half a dozen small tape patches and two larger ones sewn by a sailmaker, all before we owned the boat. Still with the jib at Spuyten Duyvil, and Osprey with a fish crossed our bow heading west to the Jersey shore. A Greater Black Back gull harrassed the osprey all the way, trying to get it to drop the fish. This is common Bald Eagle behavior, and eagles do get away with it. The gull, impressive as it is, is no eagle and the osprey held on, getting its fish to a tree on the Palisades. Meanwhile the NE wind was dying, and two more ospreys were fishing near Riverdale, the fancy section of the Bronx just north of Spuyten Duyvil. Splashes of fall color here and there on the Palisades. The southerly returned so quietly that we rehoisted the half ounce from the forward hatch, without bothering to repack it in stops. This was nearly successful, but the sail caught on the pole lift where it enters the mast. I had to let out a few inches on both the halyard and the pole lift to get it free. No damage. 1430 passed Yonkers pier. Wind picking up, still from the south. The flood is dying out but the wind now more than makes up for it. The land starts moving by. We do a very messy spinnaker gybe right off Hastings Boat Club, very emabrrassing. A perfect one near Irvington. Lots of sailboats in this part of the river. 1510 under the Tappan Zee Bridge. About 8 miles in 40 minutes. Another gybe went well, and we were almost euphoric. We wanted to go on forever, but know it gets dark early. Running downwind in the summer would be quite unpleasant, with sweat pouring into my eyes. The temperature was just right on Saturday. My sunglasses did fog up about 3 times, however. We dropped sails off Upper Nyack, where we planned to anchor. The current was ebbing quite strongly by this time, the slack having caught and passed us. The southerly was quite strong. THe combination makes anchoring a little tricky, although the holding ground here is perfect, medium clay. By letting the boat lose way completely and drift, we can get out one anchor without wrapping the keel. The wind was overcoming the ebb, so we set the south anchor, a 5-kg Bruce, first. Then, at the end of the rode, we set the Fortress FX-16 to the north. Then, two 12-lb kellets went down, hooked around both rodes, keeping them together below the keel. For cocktails we enjoyed chevre and cold-smoked trout, both from local farms that come to the greenmarket. A bottle of Gruet, a bubbly from New Mexico that we like very much, with a pair of fine crystal champagne flutes that we only use alone, and in a non-bouncy place. For dinner, the codfish, cooked in a bed of peppers, onion, plum tomatoes (blanched in the potato water , peeled and seeded) and fingerling potatoes went well with a Chardonnay, 1965 from Hogue Cellars in Oregon. Everything but the wine from the greenmarket. The temperature remained unseasonably warm through a perfect evening, with no mosquitos. After we hit the sack, it rained occasionally through the night. In the morning, it was misty, dead calm, and the tide was against us. After a late breakfast we weighed anchor and motored south. Without the concentration the spinnaker required the day before, we enjoyed a blaze of fall color, most intense from Piermont to  the 41st parallel, which we toasted with Cream Stout. It (the parallel) was right where we had left it, and all was right with the world, except for wind. We enjoyed the scenery under power to south of the GW bridge. On the way, we saw a falcon fly north up the center of the river, more ospreys, red-tail hawks as well as the usual vultures at the top of the palisades. South of the bridge, a light southerly came up, and although the tide was still flooding slightly, we had only 5 miles to the marina. We set main and jib again, and had a delightful beat. We just kept going past the marina into the harbor, with the tide ebbing strongly. We encountered a friend (the one who went with us to Maine last month) on a J27 out of the Chelsea Piers sailing school. We tried to circumnavigate Governors Island, but straight downwind in the Buttermilk channel wasn’t making it. We had to power into the 2.9-kt current briefly. Then back to the marina. 20 years without a car, a TV, or a home page

Response:

Question:

Can anyone suggest an inexpensive rod and reel for salt water fly fishing. Line weight, tippets, etc. No Orvis recommendations please.

Response:

Can anyone suggest an inexpensive rod and reel for salt water fly fishing. Line weight, tippets, etc. No Orvis recommendations please.

Yea.  A St. Croix 9 ft. 8 wt., Lamson Model 3, Dacron backing (20#), and a WF8F line.  Use tough leader material. So.. what do you have against Orvis?  I think a lot of their stuff is has a good price/performance ratio and the local salesguys have been very helpful even though I don’t spend big bucks there. Andy Schreckenghost

Response:

Paul Ruff writes: Can anyone suggest an inexpensive rod and reel for salt water fly

fishing. Line weight, tippets, etc. No Orvis recommendations please.

Paul, Look for a so called fast action  (more tip than whole rod bend)… as you will need to be able to cast 80 feet plus to do well in salt water.  It is true you can get some casts in under 50 feet by stalking….. and have, but tarpon, bonefish and especially permit are spooky on the flats and require extra long casts to reach.  A fast tip action will help this.  In addition, practice 5 to 10 minutes a day for 3 to 4 weeks to strengthen the specific shoulder and arm muscles you will use….. makes a big difference after fishing…Also use the very best salt water line you can afford….. more important than the rod.   I have not used other than Orvis, Sage and Scott and all are not

inexpensive…. so I will pass on a specific recommendation of a rod…. I have seen and cast in a yard the St. Croix series and they look promising…. but have not fished them. have fun Alan E. Hoover Anglers’ Rest Powhatan, Va        *the trout teach many, lessons*

Response:

Question:

Yep. Steve

Response:

: I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you                        <clip<clip<clip : has since been taken over by animal "rights" types. : For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm : "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of : 1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington : state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each : campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional : stewardship of state wildlife managers. : Americans for Medical Progress, the key national research advocacy group : that monitors the animal rights agenda, predicted the HSUS ballot          <clip<clip<clip : and laboratory animal issues and other issues that are appropriate" in the : future."… There was an initiative here in Michigan this last election dealing with the taking of bear over bait or with hounds.  The initiative would have banned both practices. When I found out what was  behind this initiative, it became clear to me it was nothing more than an anti-hunting measure.  The person behind getting it on the ballot claimed it would help bear hunting because it would license more hunters to get the same harvest.  Well, it would also have banned bear hunting during anytime in which baiting for any other specie was allowed. Since we have a deer season that runs from October first to the end of of December, there wouldn’t really be any time to have a bear season. There were a couple of other issues that indicated to me that this whole thing was vacant of anything substantive and was just an anti-hunting measure. Fortunately, it was defeated *SOUNDLY* and another measure passed that gives wildlife management to the professionals. PETA and apparently HSUS supported the initiative. Kind regards, Steve Kernosky Michigan Tech University

Response:

This is an end result of a society that was tied to the land and understood that as a hunk of sentient protoplasm we ALWAYS have an impact on our environment in conflict with a new majority of voters that understand the interplay of man and nature due to their intimate knowlege born of countless Disney live action cartoons. Baiting bears is by no means a sure and easy enterprise as anyone who has tried it will tell you. Certainly not a ‘fish in a barrel’ sport as it has been represented. Cougars, as all animals, will populate until an external force checks the population growth. This force has been a limited amount of range and man. Now that man has been removed from the equation that will leave range as the controlling factor. Deer suffer from years of poor forage, ducks suffer from dry years that limit the breeding and rearing areas. It has been proven for many years that upland bird populations flucuate due to environmental factors and that sport hunting has little effect. All of these studies have been paid for with HUNTING dollars and the labor of untold hunters have improved more habitat than all the animal rights groups combined. Through our license fees, duck stamp funds and Pittman-Robertson monies we employ, and gladly, thousands of professional  game managers to help us improve the number,quality and health of the game that we pursue.   It is astonishing to me that I would have to conduct a wildlife biology 101 session to defend my right to pursue in a regulated fashion game animals and birds that owe their existence and health to a population of dedicated hunters like me.     This ‘rose colored’ view of nature that has been promoted by many animal groups is more than just irrational, it is incorrect! As with the old growth controversy DAMN THE FACTS, I WANT TO FEEL GOOD!! Leave game animal management to people who have at least some basis for their opinion other than what they are fed by Hollywood. A.J.Thramer

Response:

This is an end result of a society that was tied to the land and understood that as a hunk of sentient protoplasm we ALWAYS have an impact on our environment in conflict with a new majority of voters that understand the interplay of man and nature due to their intimate knowlege born of countless Disney live action cartoons. Baiting bears is by no means a sure and easy enterprise as anyone who has tried it will tell

you. Just go to a garbage dump and try to avoid tripping over them Certainly not a ‘fish in a barrel’ sport as it has been represented. Cougars, as all animals, will populate until an external force checks the population growth. This force has been a limited amount of range and man.

More and more and more and more and more limited range all the time. Now that man has been removed from the equation that will leave range as the controlling factor.

Too bad the wildlife managers don’t have a say about where the next subdivision is going to go up. Since the man made hunting pressure is off, you should by your argument have the best of both worlds.  Wildlife populations will go through the roof, so you will practicly trip over critters without the use of baits.  Why, you’ll probably be able to hunt them from your living room window in that new condo development that went up in what used to be a forest.  Deer suffer from years of poor forage, ducks suffer from dry years that limit the breeding and rearing areas. It has been proven for many years that upland bird populations flucuate due to environmental factors and that sport hunting has little effect. All of these studies have been paid for with HUNTING dollars

This is supposed to convince me that hunting has no affect on populations? I generally agree that hunters put far more into environment and habitat preservation than the public is aware of, but come on!  Get some more weight behind your citation of authorities.  Does the concept of scueing and bias mean anything to you?  and the labor of untold hunters have improved more habitat than all the animal rights groups combined.

Generalizations mean nothing and lead nowhere! Through our license fees, duck stamp funds and Pittman-Robertson monies we employ, and gladly, thousands of professional  game managers to help us improve the number,quality and health of the game that we pursue.   It is astonishing to me that I would have to conduct a wildlife biology 101 session to defend my right to pursue in a regulated fashion game animals and birds that owe their existence and health to a population of dedicated hunters like me.  

Its really nice that you are so broad minded(sarcasm dripping)  What do I have to teach you about biology to make YOU understand that having a lot of a selected species to shoot and kill is by no means an indicator of a healthy environment.  It just means you’ve done an excellent job of elliminating a lot of diversity to make room for your particular favorite species, based solely on what you like to shoot and NOT on what is good for the environment.  If this was not the case, we would not be loosing over 200 species per year to extinction.   This ‘rose colored’ view of nature that has been promoted by many animal groups is more than just irrational, it is incorrect! As with the old growth controversy DAMN THE FACTS, I WANT TO FEEL GOOD!! Leave game animal management to people who have at least some basis for their opinion other than what they are fed by Hollywood. A.J.Thramer

What rose coloured view are you talking about?  What is irrational?  Be specific man!  Its pretty hard to argue a point that has never been made. I really don’t know what your background is, but I find it really, really repugnant that you can talk about generalizations like hunters having some superior knowledge and understanding of the environment and talk about Old Growth Forest issues as being contraversial.  Its not a cotraversy, its a tragedy!   You want to let the last bits and remanents to be cut down and managed? What happened to all the other 95% that we cut down and managed?  Where were your experts then?  Probably looking over the blue prints for their new condo, that’s where! Its this kind of lame, unfocussed hogwash that creates the kind of polarity that keeps people from doing what’s right instead of doing whats best for themselves. Just MHO Mike

Response:

In fact, the initiative did not outlaw baiting or hound hunting for bear.  It just made it illegal for sport hunters to use these techniques.  It’s perfectly OK for govt. employees and "researchers" and presumably AR activists to use bait to attract bears.   Govt. agents are still allowed to use bait and hounds to kill bears.   Seems like it’s only cruel and barbaric to use hounds or bait if you do it for sport, and it generates revenues. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you   might find interesting. BTW, HSUS is an acronym for the Humane Society of   the United States. It used to be an animal welfare organization but it   has since been taken over by animal "rights" types.   For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm   "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of   1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington   state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each   campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional   stewardship of state wildlife managers. For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,         -tgades

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: alt.fishing,rec.outdoors.fishing,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Organization: AM Construction   In fact, the initiative did not outlaw baiting or hound hunting for   bear.  It just made it illegal for sport hunters to use these   techniques.  It’s perfectly OK for govt. employees and "researchers" and   presumably AR activists to use bait to attract bears.     Govt. agents are still allowed to use bait and hounds to kill bears.     Seems like it’s only cruel and barbaric to use hounds or bait if you do   it for sport, and it generates revenues.   Steve

OK.  I’ve no clue why, but I’ll take the bait.  The initiative made it illegal to take bears using bait and/or hounds.   Would you care to tell us where in the hell "Govt. agents", "researchers", and "AR Activists" are using bait and/or hounds to kill bears?  Further, if you can actually cite a real and documented example, then tell us when and why it happened. -tgades

Response:

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations. In Colorado, we can no longer hunt spring bears, unless they’re gay. TimW (Stolen from a cartoon which lampooned the Amendment 2 passing the popular vote)

And don’t get caught with a trap. I hear that the next election, they are going after using hooks on fish. Paul

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First of all, I actually read the initiative.  Unfortunately I don’t have a copy here in front of me, so this is from memory.  One of the local papers had an editorial slamming the initiative because it didn’t "Outlaw" the practices, just made them illegal for common folk. The text of the initiative stated (not a quote, but the gist) that Wildlife agents or their assigns could use bait or hounds to hunt down and kill problem bears.  Read "bears that are annoying people".  Sort of gives the lie to the idea that the practices are just tooooo barbaric and unfair. It stated that bait could be used to attract bears for "research purposes," whatever that means.  (But I thought that we didn’t want the bears to get used to people feeding them…) Anyone who has ever hunted bear in Western Washington brush knows that the traditional method of controlling bear numbers (sport hunting) just went out the window.  Incidental kills simply will not keep pace with population growth.  Ain’t no way you’re going to be able to target an area and reduce the bear population without resorting to bait and/or hounds. Well, maybe poisoned poodles……no wait, that’s bait…… Of course we could mount a multimillion dollar campaign to supply the bruins with condoms. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK.  I’ve no clue why, but I’ll take the bait.  The initiative made it illegal to take bears using bait and/or hounds. Would you care to tell us where in the hell "Govt. agents", "researchers", and "AR Activists" are using bait and/or hounds to kill bears?  Further, if you can actually cite a real and documented example, then tell us when and why it happened. -tgades

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,       -tgades tgades, Where have you been? Any animal rights initiative is RADICAL! It’s a well-known fact among sportsmen that the ARA’s modus operandi is "divide and conquer". They attack minorities (bear-baiters, Salmon snaggers) within the hunting and fishing sports, hoping that other hunters/fishers won’t care because it’s not "their" type of hunting/fishing. Attitudes like yours ensure that the ARA’s tactics work! Todd

The other method they use is to create paranoia through undercover fanatical defenders of the insane under the guise of "I’m just sticking up for the minorities no matter how ludicress it sounds". Scully and Mulder will expose your devious plot.  You don’t fool me! Mike

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For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  

In Colorado, we can no longer hunt spring bears, unless they’re gay. TimW (Stolen from a cartoon which lampooned the Amendment 2 passing the popular vote)

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     < snip "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of 1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts.

Hi Jim, The Washington State initiative is the only one I know about.  It only prohibits bear baiting and hound hunting for cougars.  I don’t hunt but "some of my best friends . . .".  Many hunters supported the initiative but the anti crowd used wild and false statements (along the lines of "they wanna take away your right to hunt, they wanna take away your way of life") in their attempt to defeat the initiative.  Fortunately, the public saw through their BS and passed it. My decision not to hunt is based solely on the fact that it doesn’t really appeal to me.  I don’t view hunting as any worse or better than fishing which I love.  I voted in favor of this initiative just as I would vote to prohibit snagging of fish if it weren’t already illegal. August Kristoferson Watercolor Fish Art http://www.eskimo.com/~augustk

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 I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you  might find interesting. BTW, HSUS is an acronym for the Humane Society of  the United States. It used to be an animal welfare organization but it  has since been taken over by animal "rights" types.  For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm  "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of  1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington  state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each  campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional  stewardship of state wildlife managers.

Unfortunately for our wallets, the initiative passed in Washington.  For those who don’t bother to look at the end result of their vote — the state of Washington, expecting the measure to pass, had already lined up professional hunters with dogs to handle the necessary extermination of these animals when they exceed practical levels of population. The state will now have to pay for the service. The state of Oregon failed to pass the needed repeal of a similar law. There the state found that the number of animals they had to _pay_ to have exterminated was equivalent to the number that sport hunters usually paid for the right to hunt them.  Definitely a lose-lose situation for the state.  I’ve heard the cost is a couple of million annually. Even California is now having a pretty significant problem with cougars moving into populated areas making it unsafe to let the toddler play in the backyard.

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My decision not to hunt is based solely on the fact that it doesn’t really appeal to me.  I don’t view hunting as any worse or better than fishing which I love.  I voted in favor of this initiative just as I would vote to prohibit snagging of fish if it weren’t already illegal.

In my view of the universe, the achilles heel of this legislation is in the fact that it takes "wildlife management" out of the hands of the professionals (ie. Departments of Fish and Game/Wildlife [admittedly an arguable statement, but certainly not improved upon by asking Joe/ Jane-weaned-on-Disney-Classics to take up this responsibility]).  Why do we believe that Fish and Game managers allow detrimental (some would claim "cruel’) practices to continue despite convincing evidence "that even a layman can understand"?  Could it be that the issue is more complex than we appreciate?  Let the wildlife management community do their job.  We should be able to make input into the decision making process.  But, let’s not take the decision making out of the hands of the trained professionals until they give us cause. Clearly, with 27 ballot initiatives on the Oregon ballet this year, the initiative process is being abused.  I always ask myself– "Is this a matter that requires a change to the state constitution, with all the attendant costs, to address the issue?"   The answer is usually, "No". I guess it goes back to the thread about big government vs. individual responsibility.  But, in reverse!  Now were talking about big government (ie. the voting owners of the government) trying to dictate how the little wildlife management community (probably a government agency working with state schools) carries out its responsibilities. Life is weird when you’re left-handed! Charley

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  I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you   might find interesting. BTW, HSUS is an acronym for the Humane Society of   the United States. It used to be an animal welfare organization but it   has since been taken over by animal "rights" types.   For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm   "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of   1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington   state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each   campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional   stewardship of state wildlife managers.

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,         -tgades

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For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,    -tgades

You might want to re-read the the ballot question carefully. Question 1 in Massachusetts was advertised to outlaw the use of spring traps in the state. At the End of the lengthy ballot question it also read that the laws are to be changed to allow non sportsman(AKA ARA’s) to serve on the board that governs hunting and fishing in this state. Unfortunatly all the TV ads showed thirty year old footage of animals including household pets caught in the traps with no mention of the second part of the question and question 1 passed by a 3-2 margin. Hopefully this can be changed before the ARA’s take over the board and try to ban hunting and fishing in this state.(Don’t think it can’t happen!!)

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For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,    -tgades

tgades, Where have you been? Any animal rights initiative is RADICAL! It’s a well-known fact among sportsmen that the ARA’s modus operandi is "divide and conquer". They attack minorities (bear-baiters, Salmon snaggers) within the hunting and fishing sports, hoping that other hunters/fishers won’t care because it’s not "their" type of hunting/fishing. Attitudes like yours ensure that the ARA’s tactics work! Todd

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Question:

Try Pennsylvania Fly Fishing Home Page http://www.easetech.com/pafish/ You can’t go wrong!  Stream reports, county maps, trivia, tips, over 1000 streams identified! Dave Kile

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  Try pointing your browser to my home page: http://www.kings.edu/~lsgorney/index.htm   Hope this helps . . . http://www.kings.edu/~lsgorney/index.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Looking for www home page sites covering Pa fishing in general (fly, spin whatever)..thanks….

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Looking for www home page sites covering Pa fishing in general (fly, spin whatever)..thanks….

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Looking for www home page sites covering Pa fishing in general (fly, spin whatever)..thanks….

Try http://www.penn.com/~fcsc Its the Orvis shop in Tionesta and owner will tip you to where to go and what to use. — John Scherrer/Custom Internet Applications http://www.ncinter.net/~jds "Up to a point a man’s life is shaped by environment, heredity, and movements and changes in the world about him. Then there comes a time when it lies within his grasp to shape the clay of his life into the sort of thing he wishes to be. Only the weak blame parents, their race, their times, lack of good fortune, or the quirks of fate. Everyone has it within his power to say, This I am today; that I will be tomorrow.  -Louis L’Amour (Jubal Sackett)

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Question:

I’m going to spend a week on the Chesapeake Bay, near Annapolis, in mid August and am wondering what recommendations you might have. I’ll be doing some fishing from shore but will spend a fair amount of time on a 40′ trawler that is better equipped to b the love boat than for any serious stalking and catching. Currently, I have a 5 wt. fly setup (which I plan to take), but will likely to get a 9 wt. saltwater rig for streamers and poppers before I go. I suspect I can’t troll with a 9 wt., except at the very slowest speeds, but what can I expect to catch with those two rods – if anything – or am I just wasting time and money?  And which flies will improve my chances? In advance, thanks.

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I’m going to spend a week on the Chesapeake Bay, near Annapolis, in mid August and am wondering what recommendations you might have. I’ll be doing some fishing from shore but will spend a fair amount of time on a 40′ trawler that is better equipped to be the love boat than for any serious stalking and catching. Currently, I have a 5 wt. fly setup (which I plan to take), but will likely to get a 9 wt. saltwater rig for streamers and poppers before I go. I suspect I can’t troll with a 9 wt., except at the very slowest speeds, but what can I expect to catch with those two rods – if anything – or am I just wasting time and money?  And which flies will improve my chances? In advance, thanks.

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Question:

ANYONE HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS ON GOOD AREAS/SPOTS ALONG THE DEERFIELD OR MILLERS RIVER FOR FLYFISHING?  HOW ABOUT FOR SPIN FISHING? Thanks,

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ANYONE HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS ON GOOD AREAS/SPOTS ALONG THE DEERFIELD OR MILLERS RIVER FOR FLYFISHING?  HOW ABOUT FOR SPIN FISHING? Thanks,

millers … read all about it in this month’s new england fish and game. $2.50   available at  most magazine shops.   complete details on where to park, fish , etc. lexington, ma. 02173

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