Question:

With a crossbow. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any one can cast a dead cat, it’s the live cat that takes real application!!!! Speaking of which, what is the best way to attach the hook and weight a cat? Warren "get a dog and kill a non-barn cat" Findley <g

Response:

With a crossbow.

So do you tie the tippet on around the bolt by the fletching, then pull the bolt through and then tie on the hook or what? Inquiring minds want to know dammit! <g — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

Response:

Yes tippet to the bolt and fired so the barbed bolt buries deep enough to ensure a solid connection. If a hook is reverse mounted and tied to the bolt it should be left protruding  enough to ensure hookups. Another tip… good floatant for cats is Mherke’s Manx. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With a crossbow. So do you tie the tippet on around the bolt by the fletching, then pull the bolt through and then tie on the hook or what? Inquiring minds want to know dammit! <g — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

Response:

(Salmo gairdneri) The steelhead

Steelhead and rainbows have been reclassified as Onchorynchus mykiss since they are related to pacific salmon and not atlantic salmon. Ocean prowling fish follow food to depths ranging in the hundreds of feet.  This is known to be true in all our deep land locked and Great Lakes.  Color becomes a primary concern to fly tiers and most everyone does not know that the color "Yellow" changes the deeper it goes under water.

Color can matter greatly.  Trolling on the Great Lakes at deptsh of 60 to 100 feet, one week the hot color might be Monkey Puke and the next week it’s a Kevorkian. Mu

Response:

Color can matter greatly.  Trolling on the Great Lakes at deptsh of 60 to 100 feet, one week the hot color might be Monkey Puke and the next week it’s a Kevorkian.

Hmm…I can’t find those colors on my Borger chart… /daytripper (Any shot for #27?)

Response:

Splork!  Trip, you get the bill for cleaning the spewed Dr. Pepper out of my keyboard.     — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Color can matter greatly.  Trolling on the Great Lakes at deptsh of 60 to 100 feet, one week the hot color might be Monkey Puke and the next week it’s a Kevorkian. Hmm…I can’t find those colors on my Borger chart… /daytripper (Any shot for #27?)

Response:

George: Thanks for the info about streamers. I think most of us have not spent as much time as we should learning to tie and fish streamers properly. WhenIi went to the FFF Show in Livingston last month one of the classes in tying that I took was one taught by Scott Sanchez. Among the flies he taught us to tie was the Double Bunny. For those who are not aware, this is the fly that won the One Fly Contest three times and they considered banning it from the contest simply because it worked so well. This fly uses a large hook, a bunch of .035 lead wire and two magnum sized rabbit strips glued together. If you tie it big enough, you need AT LEAST an 8 weight rod to cast it and a 10 weight rod is even better. Casting this streamer is no damn fun, since it feels like you are casting a dead cat, but it sure catches big fish. Our local striper lake is turning over now, so the striper fishing has gone away for a while below the damn, but I am getting a box full of Double Bunny flies ready for when this fishing returns. I may have to break out the big rod and a few of these streamers next month when I will be fishing the White River in Arkansas. I feel a need to work some of these streamers in some holes in that river. Big Dale

Response:

Any one can cast a dead cat, it’s the live cat that takes real application!!!!

Speaking of which, what is the best way to attach the hook and weight a cat? Warren "get a dog and kill a non-barn cat" Findley <g

Response:

Any one can cast a dead cat, it’s the live cat that takes real application!!!! Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George: Thanks for the info about streamers. I think most of us have not spent as much time as we should learning to tie and fish streamers properly. WhenIi went to the FFF Show in Livingston last month one of the classes in tying that I took was one taught by Scott Sanchez. Among the flies he taught us to tie was the Double Bunny. For those who are not aware, this is the fly that won the One Fly Contest three times and they considered banning it from the contest simply because it worked so well. This fly uses a large hook, a bunch of .035 lead wire and two magnum sized rabbit strips glued together. If you tie it big enough, you need AT LEAST an 8 weight rod to cast it and a 10 weight rod is even better. Casting this streamer is no damn fun, since it feels like you are casting a dead cat, but it sure catches big fish. Our local striper lake is turning over now, so the striper fishing has gone away for a while below the damn, but I am getting a box full of Double Bunny flies ready for when this fishing returns. I may have to break out the big rod and a few of these streamers next month when I will be fishing the White River in Arkansas. I feel a need to work some of these streamers in some holes in that river. Big Dale

Response:

GEORGE GEHRKE Snake River – Hell’s Canyon                     September 5, 2001, 12:00 AM Asotin, WA 99402 PH: 509-243-4100 FAX: 509-243-4644  The old adage, "If you want to catch big fish you should use big bait," has a proven history of working.  When it comes to streamers and their use, I can’t begin to tell all the stories involving the deadly use of them. Streamers are intended to perform two major things when fishing under water.  To entice as in offering an attractor and two, to duplicate something.  In the latter case, streamers are intended to duplicate minnows and small fish. There is a third presentation and that is the combining of the two of an attractor that is also a minnow.  The first streamer that comes to mind is the "Mickey Finn" because it is an attractor but also comes across as a small trout such as the rainbow, brown, or even the cutthroat.  Many large fish take streamers with great power because they sometimes only get a glimpse of it shooting by. I never go anywhere without a couple of these babies somewhere in my vest. Specifically, today I took Gladys out to "Ernie’s Restaurant" which is a Gulf Side place in South Panama City.  It sits among the docks and your view is that of beautiful boats moored dock side.  In between is the kind of clean water that has prowling Snook and other various predators. As we sat snacking on our entrees of crab-cakes and mushrooms laced with a large Jack Daniels Black and seven, I noticed the slick, mirrored water about a hundred yards up, between to docks starting to vibrate which is "nervous water" which really are minnows being corralled.  I said, "Gladys, look!  See that nervous water?  You’re about to see a very nice fish come leaping or swirling right there. Like us, the feed is on."  I no sooner say this and by golly, a very large Snook came out of the water with a mouthful of minnows while two others only slash and soon the water goes calm.  A minute later, the nervous water moves twenty yards toward the docks and under one of them.  The chase continues for over a half hour. Perhaps they were small mullet?  If one knew what they were and if they had a streamer that matched that nervous water, it would be a winner.  There is nothing more thrilling then catching a Snook that pushes twenty pounds or more.  Often these babies around docks are ten to fifteen pounders and on a fly rod one couldn’t ask for more. Well, saltwater fly fishing with streamers isn’t the only place you can catch big fish.  Fresh water streamers are the things one uses most often to set World Records with.  Del Canty of old is a prime example of a master streamer fly fisherman.  He once came to the American Sportsman’s Club in Denver Colorado with a 12 pound Rainbow he caught with a size 4 Muddler Minnow just above the Wigwam Club.  He used a sinking line and twitched that Muddler across the bottom of a deep pool and he was there at day break.  Catching big fish with streamers seems to work best at night, early morning and late evenings. When ocean running salmon and steelhead, both being anadromous fish, give the fly fisherman a great advantage because they come back to their birth rivers with memories.  Yes, conditioned memories, for they know what they’ve been chasing and feeding on a thousand miles away. IF, we as fly fishermen can "Match the Memory" with the proper streamers, you’ve hit a home run. Here, is a unique problem that presents itself.  As with the Mickey Finn, one is able to duplicate minnow type and attractive thoughts such as sparkle of the Minnie scales that explode and drift and shine during feeding attacks into schools of minnows.  We can duplicate the carnage in the red we use in our streamers for the blood, and you’re able to tie the baby smolt of other fish, the sardines, darters, any number of things that live in between you and their ocean homes. (Salmo gairdneri) The steelhead, will return to the ocean three and even four or more times but not much over that.  The salmon return and often propagate only once and then die.  Their flesh turns back into nutrients and returns to the sea.  Birds, animals, all that is in contact with a salmon river benefit directly and indirectly.  But the steelhead is a creature that can provide a fly fisherman with an endless amount of useful information.  For instance. Ocean prowling fish follow food to depths ranging in the hundreds of feet.  This is known to be true in all our deep land locked and Great Lakes.  Color becomes a primary concern to fly tiers and most everyone does not know that the color "Yellow" changes the deeper it goes under water. It doesn’t take much depth to affect yellow as the ultraviolet rays separate from normal white light when it enters the water.  Yellow becomes various shades of green.  If Steelhead or any other fish that is atune to a shade of green on an offering being offered deep, a green at the beginning will be the wrong green down deep, whereas one may want to consider starting with a shade of yellow for it to become the right shade of green upon arrival.  This is why I have some Green Butted Skunks tied with yellow butts instead of green, just in case. It works! What we don’t know about fly tying and streamers is infinitely greater then what we know, which means, we really don’t know all that much yet.  Streamers and tying them and then fishing them, even in these modern times is of less interest to the general fly fishing public then they were in the past.  I’m from the old streamer school of fly fishermen.  I’m one of those old fogies that did more (and still do) more streamer fly fishing then dry fly fishing.  In fact, I do three times more nymph fishing then I do dries.  To my mind, trout and most fish do 9/10ths of their feeding under water, not taking things off the top only 1/10th of the time.  Somehow, I think following the real action makes more sense.  True, dry fly fishing is the nicest thing to do since sex.  Who can argue with that.  Thank goodness fly fishing lasts longer. I don’t know what the real percentage is regarding how much food trout get under water but I’m confident it’s over 7/10ths of the time. Trout don’t like coming to the surface because it’s dangerous!  If the food supply and calorie content makes it worth it, sure they’re going to rise to the fly but it is still dangerous.  This is one of the main reasons STREAMERS make trout feel right at home.  They are used to chasing things and they like chasing my streamers. That, sort of makes me smile a lot. Out of a half dozen favorite flies I’d pick the Muddler Minnow and Gold Ribbed Hare’s Ear as my first two choices.  The Muddler is so ugly it’s pretty.  Dave Whitlock has tied various styles of them and anyone who researches that aspect of his signature regarding Muddler Minnows will not be wasting their time. One should seine for the Muddler Minnows in their rivers for this could be an eye opener because they are often larger, darker, more big headed and uglier then you imagine.  Large trout don’t chase too many Muddlers because they are a well camouflaged fish and they hug the bottom in order to stay alive.  By offering a Muddler Minnow Streamer that comes off the bottom will get many fishes attention.  Many times when Steelhead fishing, you can track one of these in a convincing wake because you’re able to trim the chin in such a manner so it will plane properly.  Talk about a champion offering, this often will save the day. I often abandon streamers during the heat of the day not unless I can get into broken water where large fish are sulking under their window of safety.  Even then, the current is much too fast and you will often get only the eager, strong eighteen inch browns and bows.  It is NIGHT TIME where big fish come out to chase little fish up to about twelve to fourteen inches.  This is why one need not fear feeling ridiculous by offering a streamer monstrosity whenever it suits their fancy.  You know those big #2 4X hooks you have in storage slowly rusting away from lack of  use?  Well, those are the babies that those meat eating ten to twenty pound browns will chase willingly.  The darker the night, the better.  Never, never, never under estimate the seeing powers of trout’s eyes.  If you catch a big hog brown, do your future fishing a favor. Fillet it and send it to T-Bone for his Barbie. The attractive powers of streamers and night fishing is one of those unsung aspects of fly fishing that usually appeals to those who are willing to try anything new and who are not afraid of things that go thump in the night!  I knew of a day time worker that slept at night. He often fly fished at night and he always seemed to be catching the really big fish. Think about Bates and Steamers and Bodacious Browns.  You just might get hooked. Tying Streamers is really a LOT OF FUN!  Hooking up using them, even more!

Response:

Question:

anyone have experience ff the surf in San diego this time of year? I would greatly appreciate any comments–and if you live here perhaps we could get together–I am a fresh water ffman recently transported. Thanks Ron

Response:

I live in orange county and work in San Diego. I have not had much luck surf fly fishing in any so cal waters. Usually it is a matter of access. Most of the good stretches of beach are hard, if not impossible to get to. Any spots where you do have access to are WAY overcrowded by bait fisherman, A large percent looking for a family dinner. I have had great luck renting a skiff from seaforth. You can fish in mission bay, or Coronado island. Get out there with deceivers, let’em sink, then strip, strip, strip, like a mad man. Mackerel, rock fish, I even caught a baby barracuda once Seaforth also has a big boat to rent with GPS and all the goodies, so you can really get out there and hit the kelp beds. It is pricey though. Also there is a great salt fly fishing store in SD. If anyone knows, these guys do… San Diego Fly Shop. 619-283-3445. They have flys, lines, and all the stuff you need. Call them, they know the area. Note : you need a special sticker on your ca fishing license to do the salt thing. Good luck, Marc visit the Fly Fishing Zone at http://www.bookmarkzone.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – anyone have experience ff the surf in San diego this time of year? I would greatly appreciate any comments–and if you live here perhaps we could get together–I am a fresh water ffman recently transported. Thanks Ron

Response:

Question:

We’re going to be on the North Carolina Outer Banks in January and I’m wondering if I should take my 8 & 9 weight rods and try for Blues in the surf. Any tips or opinions on equipment, patterns and technique would be much appreciated. Thanks and Happy Holidays!

Response:

We’re going to be on the North Carolina Outer Banks in January and I’m wondering if I should take my 8 & 9 weight rods and try for Blues in the surf. Any tips or opinions on equipment, patterns and technique would be much appreciated. Thanks and Happy Holidays!

        by all means, take your mess, and just check the local phone books.  you will find a friendly tar heel willing to advise or guide anywhere up or down the coast.  and, if you *really* use your head, you’ll forget the fishing, and grab a seaside cottage where you and your darllin’ can hole up with your favorite poison for a week or so of fun and games in the eastern half of the prettiest place on earth.         wayno the geocentric. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Question:

The thread on polarized sun glasses made me think of a more basic question: Why are some people so much better than me at spotting fish? With my glasses on, my vision is measurably as good as anyone’s.  And the situation I describe below even applies to my youth when my vision was, by all tests, perfect. Still, I’ve been on the stream and had certain keen eyed fishing partners point out fish I did not detect.  Sometimes I cannot see them even after they are pointed out, but without fail, an experiment to disturb the fish always results in seeing it dart away.  Or, to more succinctly prove the point, caught!  Very frustrating. Are the eyes of my friends especially keen or are there techniques for seeing fish I just haven’t picked up.  Anybody out there got pointers for spotting fish, assuming one already knows where to look, is using polarized glasses and has 20/20 vision. —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

Why are some people so much better than me at spotting fish?

The only way I know of to improve your spotting is simply to spend as much time as possible on a stream, spotting fish.  It is a very subtle art, much like nymph fishing, and your score will improve with practice and experience. One tip, rather than look for a whole fish, look for parts, (i.e. a white edged fin, etc.) or movement.  It is very similar in that respect to spotting deer in the woods. Tight lines!! George

Response:

The thread on polarized sun glasses made me think of a more basic question: Why are some people so much better than me at spotting fish?

There is no doubt in my mind that various brains process signal in various ways.  That is why some people made better radar or sonar operators than others.  Someone once used my ham station.  While listening to noise on the speaker he mentioned that he heard someone (code transmission) coming in loud and clear.  I heard only noise.  With careful listening, I was able to tell that there were some slight changes to the character of the noise.  It was not enough to be of help to me.  I have no idea how much improvement can be obtained from training.  The differences may well be innate. By the way, the US Navy will no longer require radio operaters to be proficient at Morse code. Bill Buchman

Response:

Why are some people so much better than me at spotting fish? The only way I know of to improve your spotting is simply to spend as much time as possible on a stream, spotting fish.  It is a very subtle art, much like nymph fishing, and your score will improve with practice and experience. One tip, rather than look for a whole fish, look for parts, (i.e. a white edged fin, etc.) or movement.  It is very similar in that respect to spotting deer in the woods.

I agree with George that sitting and watching is the technique. It is the best fishing strategy anyway to sit and observe a pool or riffle for five or ten minutes before you approach or wade. Over a short period of time you can eventually see fish that you won’t see on first glance. Time lets you put together a few signals that individually are barely noticeable but can add up to a clear location of a feeding fish. Look in places where trout will be – places of slower flow where they relax but where they can see faster flow. Look for shadows that shift slightly across the stream. Normal shadows from current on the surface will only move straight downstream. It is a matter of observing not the details you are seeing but the repeating patterns of movement, then when some shadow or flash occurs that is not part of the repeating pattern, there is your fish. A tail or fin of a holding fish can sometimes be picked out among rocks or under logs but it is much easier to see a shadow shift slightly then back as a fish takes a nymph. In riffles and eddies, sit a bit and you’ll notice that small flat glassy sections of surface will be mixed with the rippled surface. These are like moving portholes into the depths, and if you watch them move downstream you can see the bottom clearly if just for a second. And if you’re steelhead fishing, look for blue logs. Mark Vinsel www.vinsel.com

Response:

I could not say it any better than Mark has just mentioned.  Steamside experience is the only way to succeed- look for the flashes or movement. Sage

        here’s an exception-that-proves-the-rule story:  couple years ago, my wife and i took a trip to bonaire (aruba, bonaire, curacao), and i was able to find a bonefish guide, who took us to vast white bottomed salt flats that were thick with small, schooling bones. invariably, my wife would see fish before i could; on a couple of occasions, she called em out before the guide.  he was amazed, as i was.  she had never been bonefishing before.  her eye just clicked with the image, i guess. I think that you just pointed out the rule whereas Mar pointed out the exception.  There a limit to just how much improvement you can get by practice.  There are many basketball players who are willing to work harder than Michael Jordan or violinist who will work harder than Itzhak Perleman (spelling?). (This is not to say that the do not work hard at their craft.)  Nevertheless, in spite of this effort, these people will just not ever be even close in performance.  The navy investigated this in the search for good sonar operators. Wayne’s wife just happens to be talented at seeing bonefish.  With practice, she may become much better.  You have to start with the talent. Bill Buchman

Response:

….Thirdly, I think some people are out more and know where they should be

looking.  Good Polarized glasses will help….Bill Kiene< Bill’s right, I think. Spotting fish is an acquired art (skill) that comes with time on the water, and distinct, concentrated effort. Dennis Smith Loveland, CO

Response:

I could not say it any better than Mark has just mentioned.  Steamside experience is the only way to succeed- look for the flashes or movement. Sage

        here’s an exception-that-proves-the-rule story:  couple years ago, my wife and i took a trip to bonaire (aruba, bonaire, curacao), and i was able to find a bonefish guide, who took us to vast white bottomed salt flats that were thick with small, schooling bones. invariably, my wife would see fish before i could; on a couple of occasions, she called em out before the guide.  he was amazed, as i was.  she had never been bonefishing before.  her eye just clicked with the image, i guess.         a. wayne harrison

Response:

I could not say it any better than Mark has just mentioned.  Steamside experience is the only way to succeed- look for the flashes or movement. Sage

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The thread on polarized sun glasses made me think of a more basic question: Why are some people so much better than me at spotting fish? With my glasses on, my vision is measurably as good as anyone’s.  And the situation I describe below even applies to my youth when my vision was, by all tests, perfect. Still, I’ve been on the stream and had certain keen eyed fishing partners point out fish I did not detect.  Sometimes I cannot see them even after they are pointed out, but without fail, an experiment to disturb the fish always results in seeing it dart away.  Or, to more succinctly prove the point, caught!  Very frustrating. Are the eyes of my friends especially keen or are there techniques for seeing fish I just haven’t picked up.  Anybody out there got pointers for spotting fish, assuming one already knows where to look, is using polarized glasses and has 20/20 vision. —                                                      -dnc-

Hi DN, Many of us guys are color blind to some degree. This makes it harder to spot fish. Secondly, some people are outside and are use to focusing at longer distances. Thirdly, I think some people are out more and know where they should be looking.  Good Polarized glasses will help. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

Question:

Ok… Phil baby has told me about the billfish tragedy and that maybe I should not eat them.  He has also suggested that sharks should not be eaten, because of the rapes of that industry. Is there anything (except wild fish that I catch myself) that I can still feel good about eating ?   Lobsters ? Better not… Dolphin…? Whoops !!!! Grouper…? Getting thin… Salmon…? Not in this newsgroup, puhlease… Shark, turbot, wahoo, mackeral, cats, specks, reds, cod, perch, ????? Brook Trout !!! Yeah baby ! Plenty O’ Them !! TimW What is becoming of our world ?

Response:

Ok… Phil baby has told me about the billfish tragedy and that maybe I should not eat them.  He has also suggested that sharks should not be eaten, because of the rapes of that industry. Is there anything (except wild fish that I catch myself) that I can still feel good about eating ? TimW What is becoming of our world ?

Hi Tim Yes I do release most of the trout I catch but I do keep a few Mountain White Fish for dinner. I like them cleaned (a good idea), then fill the body cavity with a couple of slices of onion, butter, a small wedge of lemon, and salt/other stuff to taste. Roll all this up in a tin-foil wrapper, place it "near" the coals of a quiet/calm campfire and cook it 8 minutes on the first side and 4 minutes on the second (adjust more or less according to the size of the white fish)OR on a regular grill for the same times. Good Tying & … — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

Hi Al, The Roaring Fork is a really excellent whitefish river.   It’s funny, but I’ve never just ‘cooked them up’.  I do smoke them though.  This I do only once or twice a year as I think the smoke is not all that healthy to eat.   Charlie Quinton is coming down this weekend from Laramie to fish, so I went scouting last sunday afternoon.  I caught a 22 inch brown on the 3rd cast. Released it and hooked it’s big sister on the next, which got off in the current.  Started catching whiteys after that, big bruiser ones. Did not catch a single bow.  I was really suprised.  I’m not sure if the spawn is over or gearing up to go.   I hiked up the 3 mile trib and saw none.  (I would NOT have fished to them had I…) Might have to try simply ‘cooking one up’.  Thanks. TimW

Response:

: Lobsters ? Better not… : "Lobsters"? Is this because your pals at PETA had a "lobster rescue" last : year (PE)T(A)-Bone? (oops I mean "Moe") Stop.  C’mon now… this has gone on long enough.  Stop.  Really. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

ld ? Of all the pressing problems in this world, do you really think C&R fishing is an important issue?

Obviously not! It’s pedantic nonsense! Ralph H

Response:

Is there anything (except wild fish that I catch myself) that I can still feel good about eating ? TimW

you can eat all the BC Pink salmon you want. They’re delicious, easy to catch and all the ones in the fish shop are wild … and relatively cheap. Ralph H

Response:

When I want fish to eat, I go to a small local lake which is heavily stocked.  It’s fun to catch even stupid fish.  I still get away from the grind.  And I feel just fine about keeping what I catch, since I paid for it to be put there for me…a lot like a visit to the supermarket except you don’t have to keep unhooking bag boys from your backcast. — Laboratory for Applied Logic    Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho             www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster —–BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK—– Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzDtvLEAAAEEAKAC21G2Be0K0DMgjLpxrwLmsYfCz8rWcfgyABjr3Ryfk1dO nV7fFFpUF3xohR7die+/B2V9oqRQzTLeSF2ECKlsTY/yUyw2kn+P2ju1umh4Fwzd cVTvc+H69q1+Ft3kmw/PE0Pan+g0PUGGJ43stw3q4OgBHdixbRd/f9giJFDxAAUR tCZKYW1lcyBBLiBGb3N0ZXIgPGZvc3RlckBjcy51aWRhaG8uZWR1PokAlQMFEDIR FaeEvoC3uR1YOQEBOlAEAKIGMgrGku99CVdMKNvme4F2diQBFiDtL7Nyz0c9wVK5 QMQinayA4za6hcJRvFZU663JPjegRxbbjoUkiUTs2G+BXMSM7WI+raywqlBd+dQx zZTMkEzpYeuuyci4aKAvmk7PGuJGw5kRWUbMSdSNiGRWqo6CoW74M2kGsKuSA6ME iQCVAwUQMPxF4Rd/f9giJFDxAQEWsAP/YAW5FZwP/cwQ0LeokwL86vWrGSeOQrtS /5MN/Ysc85gYcFsb0/Ja5dDyh/QN34ljB/+3OU71iTWzXNN2KR+uJqTbUVbRsKiT EMiEDebKmlkhkNZUD0LK8Nge4/kiLU2QG+hxpvzXcnMMtkD7SJU3mx5sZv3NJdHh lrjuGWuId48= =G/K7 —–END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK—–

Response:

(Al and Tim are talking about eating whitefish) Yeah, you know, I think I’ll try some this year myself. One question, though:  Have either of you ever noticed a difference in eatin’ quality between fish caught at different times of the year?  I hear folks up in Wa. go after them in the winter but not so much in the summer.  Why? I did keep a 19 incher a few years back during the summer, froze it, and then tried to eat it later but when it thawed it was just a bag of goo… Any idea if that was from the freezing, or just because it was a summer fish? —- A sign of what’s becoming of our world? – the new Oregon regs has a list of waters growing fish that are not safe to eat, basically.  It’s a new section Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or.

Response:

Hi Al, .  I caught a 22 inch brown on the 3rd cast. Released it and hooked it’s big sister on the next, which got off in the current.  . TimW OH MY GOD! WHO EVER WOULD HAVE THOUGHT IT POSSIBLE?

I was, uh, hunting whitefish at the time I *accidentally* caught this magnificent wild fish.   Plus, uh, my Grill_Lux II Pro-Sports Model Outdoor 145K BTU with the Smoker attachment and Bean spinner only has a 20 inch opening. TimW [Damn !!! I meant to send this private email to Al...]

Response:

Stop.  C’mon now… this has gone on long enough.  Stop.  Really. — Rick

Yeah: 1) we all catch fish; 2) almost all of us like to take a fish home for supper (any disagreement there0 3) some of see this as an essential part of the support; they are entitled    to their opinion and should be allowed to practice this aspect of the    pursuit 4) we all agree that is necessary to release fish for a variety of reasons 5) we all agree that a lot of excellent waters are over fished and have too    much angling pressure. combine that with a lot of c&r and many report    the fish and the fishing suffer. 6) some primarily c&r anglers catch and release slake their fish lust to      excess. 7) given 5 & 6 (and a variety of other issues) angling ethics and regulation    must continue to evolve to preserve the sport. So maybe we can agree on some fundamentals and end this? Can even the prophet(s) among us agree on this? Ralph H

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Hi Al, .  I caught a 22 inch brown on the 3rd cast. Released it and hooked it’s big sister on the next, which got off in the current.  . TimW

OH MY GOD! WHO EVER WOULD HAVE THOUGHT IT POSSIBLE? Ralph H 8^)

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  I have heard they are good smoked, but never have been able to keep them lit. No good will become a fellow who smokes a whitefish. Spinolio

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Is there anything (except wild fish that I catch myself) that I can still feel good about eating ? Lobsters ? Better not… "Lobsters"? Is this because your pals at PETA had a "lobster rescue" last year (PE)T(A)-Bone? (oops I mean "Moe")

Actually, yes. I believe that they did highlight the scientific communities findings that the number of spiny lobsters making the migration has declined in devastating numbers and noone is quite sure why.  This is a huge disaster that any lover of wildlife (which you claim to be) should be interested in. [rest of (PE)T(A)-Bone's, oops "Moe's", stupid list snipped]

How can a list be ’stupid’ ? It is just a list, eh… What is becoming of our world ? Of all the pressing problems in this world, do you really think C&R fishing is an important issue? Besides with annoying AR-loons like yourself, that is.

Uh…excuse me Doug Mackenzie, eh…but if I see pure C&R as the only handhold PETA will need to bring sportfishing down crashing around us, well then it does rank up there as pretty significant in this NG.  But, I guess after a couple of Molsons the ‘Loomis Vs. Sage’ thread would seem pretty damned important, eh ? TimW

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Al, .  I caught a 22 inch brown on the 3rd cast. Released it and hooked it’s big sister on the next, which got off in the current.  . TimW OH MY GOD! WHO EVER WOULD HAVE THOUGHT IT POSSIBLE? I was, uh, hunting whitefish at the time I *accidentally* caught this magnificent wild fish.   Plus, uh, my Grill_Lux II Pro-Sports Model Outdoor 145K BTU with the Smoker attachment and Bean spinner only has a 20 inch opening. TimW [Damn !!! I meant to send this private email to Al...]

ROTFL! What a sport! Ralph H

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OH MY GOD! WHO EVER WOULD HAVE THOUGHT IT POSSIBLE? I was, uh, hunting whitefish at the time I *accidentally* caught this magnificent wild fish.   Plus, uh, my Grill_Lux II Pro-Sports Model Outdoor 145K BTU with the Smoker attachment and Bean spinner only has a 20 inch opening. TimW [Damn !!! I meant to send this private email to Al...]

I’ve looked high and low for one of them bean spinners.  Where’d you find yours? Mike

Response:

  I have heard they are good smoked, but never have been able to keep them lit. No good will become a fellow who smokes a whitefish.

…the tears are rolling down my cheeks…you are a sick and funny man steve… TimW

Response:

(Al and Tim are talking about eating whitefish) Yeah, you know, I think I’ll try some this year myself. One question, though:  Have either of you ever noticed a difference in eatin’ quality between fish caught at different times of the year?  I hear folks up in Wa. go after them in the winter but not so much in the summer.  Why?

Definately, but it depends on the situation.  The poor trout suffer through long winters in some places and are in poor condition for fighten’ or eatin’ in the spring.  The same lake might have pike that are perfect at iceout, from eating the trout.  I think that browns suffer from competetion from the rainbows and whitefish here in the winter and are in better shape by the end of summer.  High mountain areas, the fish are in the best shape in the middle of summer. TimW

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OH MY GOD! WHO EVER WOULD HAVE THOUGHT IT POSSIBLE? I was, uh, hunting whitefish at the time I *accidentally* caught this magnificent wild fish. Plus, uh, my Grill_Lux II Pro-Sports Model Outdoor 145K BTU with the Smoker attachment and Bean spinner only has a 20 inch opening. TimW [Damn !!! I meant to send this private email to Al...] I’ve looked high and low for one of them bean spinners.  Where’d you find yours?

In a pretty dark corner Mike…. 8^) TimW

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OH MY GOD! WHO EVER WOULD HAVE THOUGHT IT POSSIBLE? I was, uh, hunting whitefish at the time I *accidentally* caught this magnificent wild fish. Plus, uh, my Grill_Lux II Pro-Sports Model Outdoor 145K BTU with the Smoker attachment and Bean spinner only has a 20 inch opening. TimW [Damn !!! I meant to send this private email to Al...]

So.  My conspiracy theory that Ralph Cutter and George Gherke are one and the same person, and that this new Moe person has kidnapped and is posing as T-bone is off base hunh?  Would the real T-bone admit to C&R and using Orvis in his lifetime, let alone in the same week!?  Hunh?  I thought not.  Case closed.  Next week I’ll discuss the black Orvis Edition Ford Explorers and what they’re doing cruising around our best tailwaters at night.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OH MY GOD! WHO EVER WOULD HAVE THOUGHT IT POSSIBLE? I was, uh, hunting whitefish at the time I *accidentally* caught this magnificent wild fish. Plus, uh, my Grill_Lux II Pro-Sports Model Outdoor 145K BTU with the Smoker attachment and Bean spinner only has a 20 inch opening. TimW [Damn !!! I meant to send this private email to Al...] So.  My conspiracy theory that Ralph Cutter and George Gherke are one and the same person, and that this new Moe person has kidnapped and is posing as T-bone is off base hunh?  Would the real T-bone admit to C&R and using Orvis in his lifetime, let alone in the same week!?  Hunh?  I thought not.  Case closed.  Next week I’ll discuss the black Orvis Edition Ford Explorers and what they’re doing cruising around our best tailwaters at night.

You forgot about the barking dogs, Sherlock… TimW

Response:

So.  My conspiracy theory that Ralph Cutter and George Gherke are one and the same person, and that this new Moe person has kidnapped and is posing as T-bone is off base hunh?  Would the real T-bone admit to C&R and using Orvis in his lifetime, let alone in the same week!?  Hunh?  I thought not.  Case closed.  Next week I’ll discuss the black Orvis Edition Ford Explorers and what they’re doing cruising around our best tailwaters at night.

WARNING: If you do! They might have to kill you! BE CAREFUL, I know who’s driving that Ford..and his dog doesn’t like people either..;) SWEET DREAMS… ..NAK

Response:

  I have heard they are good smoked, but never have been able to keep them lit. No good will become a fellow who smokes a whitefish. …the tears are rolling down my cheeks…you are a sick and funny man steve… TimW

You don’t inhale do you Moe? Michael Smith

Response:

Is there anything (except wild fish that I catch myself) that I can still feel good about eating ? Yes I do release most of the trout I catch but I do keep a few Mountain White Fish for dinner. I like them cleaned (a good idea), then fill the  ^^^^^ ^^^^

I have heard they are good smoked, but never have been able to keep them lit. -Burton

Response:

  I have heard they are good smoked, but never have been able to keep them lit. No good will become a fellow who smokes a whitefish. Spinolio

Guess I’m lucky they wouldn’t stay lit! -Burton — L. Burton Hawley           2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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Question:

I need to speak at the funeral of a friend who loved to fly fish.  I’d like to read a poem about flyfishing.  Any suggestions.

Response:

I have two suggestions.  One suggestion is a lovely poem by Elizabeth Bishop entitled "The Fish," found in "North & South" and "The Complete Poems: 1927-1979."  My other suggestion is any one of several contemplative poems by Raymond Carver with a flyfishing setting in his collection "Ultramarine."  Bishop’s "The Complete Poems" is available in paperback from The Noonday Press; Carver’s "Ultramarine" is available in paperback from Vintage Books.

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Question:

 bring and where to go.  I don’t mind traveling an hour to get to a good  fishing spot.

You’ll have to travel more than an hour.  The nearest stream worth fishing is probably the South Branch of the Au Sable, about three hours north, near Roscommon.  I don’t remember what hatches would be proceeding then — standard midsummer stuff.

Response:

I will be in Auburn Hills, Michigan (near Pontiac, MI) on business from July 17 through July 22.  I would like to bring my fly rod with me and do some fishing.  Can someone out there give me some advice on what flys to bring and where to go.  I don’t mind traveling an hour to get to a good fishing spot.

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Question:

Is there such a thing?  I’d love to drive into the mountains, meet a bunch of other homebrewers at about 10000′ (ASL), pitch a tent, stoke a fire, and swap homebrew, fly fish, lie about our SO’s, and forget about work for 48 hours.  Who’s in?  I’d suggest late-June to mid-July just because it’s going to take time to get this thing going.   email me.   — | 12459 W. Atlantic Ave | 303/763-8118 (Home) | 4725 Independence Street | | Lakewood, CO 80228    | 303/467-8352 (Work) | Wheat Ridge,  CO 80033   |

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Are you seriously opposed to bait fishermen?  I might be in.

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Question:

The MERCHANT NAVY is the official name for the British merchant fleet in recognition of their losses in the World Wars. In fact there was a badge issued to mercant sailors that consists of the letters MN. — ship safety branch canadian coast guard-west vancouver

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David Jaroslav writes:        David Hogg or Daan Sandee writes:                The UK Merchant Navy flies the Red Ensign,                a.k.a. the Red Duster, a red flag with the                Union Flag in the upper left.        That would be UK Merchant Marine; the only Navy in the UK        is the Royal Navy. To say "civilian Navy" would be an        oxymoron and merchant vessels are civilian ships. Codswallop. Merchant Navy is a legitimate term in common use. Let me quote THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE SEA:        MERCHANT NAVY, a collective name to describe the merchant        ships on the official registers of any one nation. It        embraces  merchant ships of all varieties, from passenger        liners and very large tankers and bulk carriers to small        coasters, but does not normally include vessels used in        fishing. And just to confuse matters for you guys – (and a test of your knowledge) what flag do Royal Fleet Auxilairies fly????? (RFA’s) geoff Cap’n Fido GOBLIN

I’m glad to say that on my recent trip home I bought a larger red ensign. I have always been a bit worried about whether I have the right to fly it on my California registered boat though.  I thought of writing to the Department of Trade and Industry but thought since this thread was running that I’d check out the net wisdom. So; do I, as a British citizen, have the right to fly the red ensign on an American boat?  And if so, could the British government requisition the boat in wartime? Sincerely worried, John.

Response:

I’m glad to say that on my recent trip home I bought a larger red ensign. I have always been a bit worried about whether I have the right to fly it on my California registered boat though.  I thought of writing to the Department of Trade and Industry but thought since this thread was running that I’d check out the net wisdom. So; do I, as a British citizen, have the right to fly the red ensign on an American boat?  And if so, could the British government requisition the boat in wartime?

I’m no sea lawyer, but I believe the only illegality would be to fly the ensign of the wrong country from the customary position (mainsail leech in the case of Dr. Who) in order to falsely claim the protection of that government ("false flagging"). I believe Dr. Who is "numbered", not "registered" ("documented") in California, as I don’t imagine she admeasures the minimum of 5 tons required for documentation.  (Is she in Lloyd’s Register of Yachts?) Furthermore, if she were documented, *you* would not be allowed to own her. If numbered in California, she is a U.S. vessel regardless of her ownership. I believe Miss Manners would require that you fly from the leech only the U.S. ensign (or the U.S. Yacht Ensign).  In addition, you might fly the Red Ensign from the "courtesy ensign" position (usually the starboard spreader.) As to your last question, I think it might depend on whether Britain were at war *with the United States*. Sincerely worried, John.

May you avoid Dinty Moore Beef Stew henceforth,                  Tom Murphy Standard Disclaimer.

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JOHN S DREWERY writes:

        I’m glad to say that on my recent trip home I bought a larger         red ensign.  I have always been a bit worried about whether I         have the right to fly it on my California registered boat though.           I thought of writing to the Department of Trade and Industry but         thought since this thread was running that I’d check out the net         wisdom.         So; do I, as a British citizen, have the right to fly the red         ensign on an American boat?  And if so, could the British         government requisition the boat in wartime? You’re a bit light with caps, aren’t you old son. Try Red Ensign. Right? Might is Right. Fly it with pride. If I had a smaller one I’d fly it from the cross-trees of my GOBLIN as a Jolie Rougier – if you know what I mean.                                         Cap’n Fido, terror of the South Bay                                         GOBLIN

Response:

And just to confuse matters for you guys – (and a test of your knowledge) what flag do Royal Fleet Auxilairies fly????? (RFA’s)

The Royal Fleet Auxilliaries fly the Blue Ensign.                      "In the long run, we’re all dead."                               -John Maynard Keynes

Response:

The Great Aunt Maria, (my wee boat) flies a flag a bit like the Red Ensign, the Marine Flag of New Zealand: Union flag on one quarter, other three red, with 4 white stars on the fly. "Ensign" when used in the specific meaning of "A flag based on the national flag with extra bits" does not apply to the New Zealand flags, which were ensigns of a colony of the British Empire but are now "Flags" in their own right. Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags?

Response:

:   : The Great Aunt Maria, (my wee boat) flies a flag a bit like the Red : Ensign, the Marine Flag of New Zealand: Union flag on one quarter, : other three red, with 4 white stars on the fly. "Ensign" when used in : the specific meaning of "A flag based on the national flag with extra : bits" does not apply to the New Zealand flags, which were ensigns of : a colony of the British Empire but are now "Flags" in their own right. : Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags? The Canadian Navy flies the Canadian flag (Maple leaf w/ red vertical bars on either side) on the stern.  They also fly a Canadian navy flag (ensign?) on the bow when at the dock which is sort of based on the RN white ensign, consisting of a Canadian Flag in the upper left corner and the arms of the Canadian Navy (fouled anchor, crown and maple leaves) centred on a white background. The old canadian flag was based on the red ensign with the union jack in the upper left and the Canadian arms centred on a red background.   A couple of provincial flags (Ontario and Manitoba) are based on this same theme with the respective provincial arms centred. dave — Dept. of Oceanography             QUICS:  dhazen Dalhousie University              Voice: (902) 494-3396 Halifax, NS CANADA B3H 4J1        FAX:  (902) 494-3877              Dal’s Machine – My Opinions

Response:

… the Marine Flag of New Zealand: Union flag on one quarter, other three red, with 4 white stars on the fly. … Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags?

It’s not clear if you mean (currently) non-British or (ever) non-British.  In the former category is Jamaica.  Their martime flag is formed in a manner similar to New Zealand’s with a white cross and three red quarters and the Jamaican green/black civil flag in the top quarter nearest the (?)fly. Randolph Bentson

Response:

Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags?

There has been a long discussiion under the headline ‘UNION JACK’. I do not have documentation available, but I think that the Union Jack is used as a marine flag only by the Queen herself. Most British registered boats use the Red Ensign. I believe that the ensign goes with the boat, because if I as Finnish citisen charter a British boat in say Cowes, I fly the Red Ensign while I use the boat. The British have two more ensigns: Blue Ensign and White Ensign. The White Ensign is quite exclusive, the use is restricted to the members of the royal family, former marine officers (perhaps there is some limit in rank) and the members of the Royal Yacht Squadron. The Blue Ensign is a bit more common, it is used by members of the Royal Cruising Club and a number of other Yacht Clubs (I believe that most of them have the prefix Royal in their name.) The ensigns come in two categories ‘faced’ and ‘defaced’, i.e. there is some symbol on the face of the ensign referring to a certain club. There are several other countries that have special marine flags. I do not have a list of them but at least U.S., Italy, Denmark and Finland have ones. In Finland each yacht club has it’s own symbol at the upper corner at the fly. The ensign is white, like the national flag, but has added to the blue cross another white cross on right onver the blue one. The ’sailor’ flag is actually older than the Finnish national flag, because when the first yacht clubs were born more than 130 years ago, Finland was a part of Russia and the sailors did not want to fly the Russian flag and they got the permission from the czar to fly a ‘club ensign’.  Anyway today this ‘club ensings’ are bona fide national flags, because all of them are approved by the parliament to be so. If I have some British subject on my boat, I can fly the Red Ensign on my port flagline. If I sail to U.K. I fly the same on my starboard flagline. If I charter a boat in some foreign country I fly the flag of the registration countty of the boat in the stern and my Finnish club flag or ensign on my port flagline. This rule should be clear, but I have a problmem: What shall I do, if I have guestos on my boat from several countries. I cannot possibly fly say, a German, Swedish, Danish and French flag of ensign on my port flag rope? – Lauri Tarkkonen

Response:

The Great Aunt Maria, (my wee boat) flies a flag a bit like the Red Ensign, the Marine Flag of New Zealand: Union flag on one quarter, other three red, with 4 white stars on the fly. "Ensign" when used in the specific meaning of "A flag based on the national flag with extra bits" does not apply to the New Zealand flags, which were ensigns of a colony of the British Empire but are now "Flags" in their own right. Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags?

Perhaps ‘not derived from British practice’ would be more accurate (see India, Ireland etc) The only ones which spring to mind are the swallow-tailed ensigns based on the national flag, as used in Scandinavian vessels. Also certain yacht clubs in Belgium and the Netherlands use defaced (technical term meaning ‘bearing a badge or symbol’) national flags as ensigns. At least one Dutch yacht club appears to have a version of the White Ensign. Just to add to the previous discussion, the Red Ensign is the national maritime ensign of the UK which may be flown by a British subject in a vessel which is not otherwise required to fly some other national ensign (ie is on another register). This is exactly the same as the right of US citizens to fly the Stars and Stripes (since there is no US maritime ensign) in a US registered or an unregistered vessel. If the vessel is a registered British ship then the Red Ensign must, by law, be flown under certain circumstances (eg entering and leaving port, when in sight of other vessels). If the vessel is authorised to fly another British ensign (defaced Red, defaced Blue, Blue or White) then that ensign may replace the Red. But it is still *correct* to fly the Red Ensign and I often do so in place of the Blue of the Cruising Association when abroad, since the Red is more readily recognised by lock and bridge keepers, Customs and harbour personnel. For the origin of the Red, White and Blue Ensigns see ‘Squadronal Colours’ in the Oxford Dictionary of Ships and the Sea. More controversially, does anyone share my dislike of the bastard "European" blue ensign which has appeared on a few yachts in recent years? Brian Gay

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :   : The Great Aunt Maria, (my wee boat) flies a flag a bit like the Red : Ensign, the Marine Flag of New Zealand: Union flag on one quarter, : other three red, with 4 white stars on the fly. "Ensign" when used in : the specific meaning of "A flag based on the national flag with extra : bits" does not apply to the New Zealand flags, which were ensigns of : a colony of the British Empire but are now "Flags" in their own right. : Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags? The Canadian Navy flies the Canadian flag (Maple leaf w/ red vertical bars on either side) on the stern.  They also fly a Canadian navy flag (ensign?) on the bow when at the dock which is sort of based on the RN white ensign, consisting of a Canadian Flag in the upper left corner and the arms of the Canadian Navy (fouled anchor, crown and maple leaves) centred on a white background. The old canadian flag was based on the red ensign with the union jack in the upper left and the Canadian arms centred on a red background.   A couple of provincial flags (Ontario and Manitoba) are based on this same theme with the respective provincial arms centred. dave

Just a note on ceremonial here – Back when I was doing my officer of the day certification – (eventually I became a CO of a Canadian Warship) I remember studying this whole business about ensigns and such. In Canadian Warships, the national flag has been designated the Ensign. Hence it is flown from the stern. The falg at the bow is called the Jack. Hence the term Jackstaff, which is that stick up at the front. — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dept. of Oceanography             QUICS:  dhazen Dalhousie University              Voice: (902) 494-3396 Halifax, NS CANADA B3H 4J1        FAX:  (902) 494-3877             Dal’s Machine – My Opinions

Response:

[much useful informatio non Ensigns deleted] More controversially, does anyone share my dislike of the bastard "European" blue ensign which has appeared on a few yachts in recent years?

I think the operative word is ‘bastard’.  I agree with you.  The Ensign is to designate the country under whose authority (or protection) the vessel is placed. Give me the Red Duster (or defaced Blue/White/Red) any day! — Regards, Iain  snailmail: MLB G/53a, BT Labs, Martlesham Heath, Ipswich. IP5 7RE

Response:

Just a note on ceremonial here – Back when I was doing my officer of the day certification – (eventually I became a CO of a Canadian Warship) I remember studying this whole business about ensigns and such. In Canadian Warships, the national flag has been designated the Ensign. Hence it is flown from the stern. The falg at the bow is called the Jack. Hence the term Jackstaff, which is that stick up at the front. —

Can you explain the purpose/use of the Jack.  In the US navy it is called the Union Jack and is a square blue flag covered with white stars.  What does it mean and when is it flown?  Do only military vessels fly it? Every time I’ve seen it mentioned in a book it has piqued my interest so I read about it only to find the writer apparently knows no more about it than I do. Greg Cook

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just to add to the previous discussion, the Red Ensign is the national maritime ensign of the UK which may be flown by a British subject in a vessel which is not otherwise required to fly some other national ensign (ie is on another register). This is exactly the same as the right of US citizens to fly the Stars and Stripes (since there is no US maritime ensign) in a US registered or an unregistered vessel. If the vessel is a registered British ship then the Red Ensign must, by law, be flown under certain circumstances (eg entering and leaving port, when in sight of other vessels). If the vessel is authorised to fly another British ensign (defaced Red, defaced Blue, Blue or White) then that ensign may replace the Red. But it is still *correct* to fly the Red Ensign and I often do so in place of the Blue of the Cruising Association when abroad, since the Red is more readily recognised by lock and bridge keepers, Customs and harbour personnel.

This leads me back to the original question, and variations thereon.  If a British citizen residing in the U.S. purchases a boat which was previously a U.S. registered vessel, then that person may not maintain the U.S. registration since they are not a citizen of the U.S.  Under U.S. law, that boat must then be registered ("numbered") with the state authorities.  As a British subject, may that person then fly the Red Ensign from such a vessel?  What is the current U.K. law regarding the registration of vessels, and may that vessel be registered as a British ship?  What constitutes authorisation to fly another British ensign (defaced Red, defaced Blue, Blue or White)? — Steve Robinson in North Andover, Mass.   "Sir, you will either die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That, my lord, depends on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." John Wilkes to the Earl of Sandwich, Parliament, November 1763

Response:

This leads me back to the original question, and variations thereon.  If a British citizen residing in the U.S. purchases a boat which was previously a U.S. registered vessel, then that person may not maintain the U.S. registration since they are not a citizen of the U.S.  Under U.S. law, that boat must then be registered ("numbered") with the state authorities.  As a British subject, may that person then fly the Red Ensign from such a vessel?  

My guess is that being "numbered" on a state register is not *official registration* and therefore the British subject may fly the Red Ensign. What is the current U.K. law regarding the registration of vessels, and may that vessel be registered as a British ship?

There are two registers – the Official Register of British Ships and the Small Ships Register. Getting your ex-US ship onto the former would be difficult and costly but the latter is straightforward – apply to SSR, DVLA, Swansea, Wales.  What constitutes authorisation to fly another British ensign (defaced Red, defaced Blue, Blue or White)?

Permits to fly other British ensigns are issued by the authorised clubs to members owning registered vessels. Brian Gay

Response:

There has been a long discussiion under the headline ‘UNION JACK’. I do not have documentation available, but I think that the Union Jack is used as a marine flag only by the Queen herself.

No. It is flown in the bows (at a jackstaff) on Royal Navy ships at anchor or moorings (when it is properly called the Union Jack). As the Union Flag it is the personal flag of an Admiral of the Fleet. Most British registered boats use the Red Ensign. I believe that the ensign goes with the boat, because if I as Finnish citisen charter a British boat in say Cowes, I fly the Red Ensign while I use the boat.

If the boat is on a British register, this is correct. If not, then whatever ensign is  allowed by the law of the charterer’s country. The British have two more ensigns: Blue Ensign and White Ensign. The White Ensign is quite exclusive, the use is restricted to the members of the royal family, former marine officers (perhaps there is some limit in rank) and the members of the Royal Yacht Squadron.

The White Ensign is reserved to the Royal Navy and the Royal Yacht Squaron. The Blue Ensign is a bit more common, it is used by members of the Royal Cruising Club and a number of other Yacht Clubs (I believe that most of them have the prefix Royal in their name.) The ensigns come in two categories ‘faced’ and ‘defaced’, i.e. there is some symbol on the face of the ensign referring to a certain club.

Yes, a number of clubs have permission to use the plain (undefaced) or defaced (with symbol) Blue Ensign. [Interesting historical stuff deleted] If I have some British subject on my boat, I can fly the Red Ensign on my port flagline.

Nice gesture, but see below If I sail to U.K. I fly the same on my starboard flagline.

A long-time custom of the sea. Some countries require this by law. If I charter a boat in some foreign country I fly the flag of the registration countty of the boat in the stern and my Finnish club flag or ensign on my port flagline.

Yes, if registered (see above) This rule should be clear, but I have a problmem: What shall I do, if I have guestos on my boat from several countries. I cannot possibly fly say, a German, Swedish, Danish and French flag of ensign on my port flag rope?

That’s the problem – to avoid international repercussions, all the national flags would have to be at the same height and of the same size. I hope to be in Finland next year or the year after, Lauri, so you can visit my boat to see that my flag etiquette is all it should be! Brian Gay

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: My guess is that being "numbered" on a state register is not *official : registration*… However, I can cite a case where a boat was purchased in England and registered in Colorado.  It carried the CO number and annual sticker.  The only "paperwork" was the usual (approx) 3" x 3" card with a few (very few) details about the boat and the owner.  That was accepted by the customs of numerous countries around the Mediterranean, and in the Canary Islands, Cape Verde Islands and Martinique.  The only time it was no longer accepted as the *official registration* was when the boat was brought back to the States and permanently berthed in another state (not CO).  When I went to the customs in Martinique, there were several French boats that had all come in at the same time.  I was a bit nervous because they all had official-looking books registering their boats and all I had was this pathetic little bit of a card from Colorado (I wasn’t even named as the owner).  But the customs accepted it without any question.  You can’t get much more *official* than that The owner was American so the boat always flew the S & S.  We did fly the Red Duster as a courtesy flag in England. B.S!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There has been a long discussiion under the headline ‘UNION JACK’. The White Ensign is reserved to the Royal Navy and the Royal Yacht Squaron. The Blue Ensign is a bit more common, it is used by members of the Royal Cruising Club and a number of other Yacht Clubs (I believe that most of them have the prefix Royal in their name.) The ensigns come in two categories ‘faced’ and ‘defaced’, i.e. there is some symbol on the face of the ensign referring to a certain club. Yes, a number of clubs have permission to use the plain (undefaced) or defaced (with symbol) Blue Ensign.

I thought that the only club which could use an undefaced blue ensign was the Royal Southern Yacht Club in Hamble. Are there any others ? regards — Chris Cooper

Response:

Cooper) says: I thought that the only club which could use an undefaced blue ensign was the Royal Southern Yacht Club in Hamble. Are there any others ?

Yep:  the Royal Solent Yacht Club in Yarmouth, IoW, for one. Regards, Alister

Response:

: HMY Britannia has three masts, a jackstaff at her bow and a flagpole : at her stern. When she is under sail with HM the Queen onboard, what : flag goes where? Hm? HMY Britannia trivia: the ship’s name is not marked on any external part of the hull or superstructure. I don’t know if it is marked anywhere inside, not having been there myself. — Terry Steinford

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David Jaroslav writes:    David Hogg or Daan Sandee writes:            The UK Merchant Navy flies the Red Ensign,            a.k.a. the Red Duster, a red flag with the            Union Flag in the upper left.    That would be UK Merchant Marine; the only Navy in the UK    is the Royal Navy. To say "civilian Navy" would be an    oxymoron and merchant vessels are civilian ships. Codswallop. Merchant Navy is a legitimate term in common use. Let me quote THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE SEA:    MERCHANT NAVY, a collective name to describe the merchant    ships on the official registers of any one nation. It    embraces  merchant ships of all varieties, from passenger    liners and very large tankers and bulk carriers to small    coasters, but does not normally include vessels used in    fishing.

And just to confuse matters for you guys – (and a test of your knowledge) what flag do Royal Fleet Auxilairies fly????? (RFA’s) geoff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cap’n Fido GOBLIN

Response:

Here we go again. The Red Ensign is not limited to the Merchant Navy nor to the Merchant Navy + the fisherfolk which seems to define your class "Merchant Marine". All sailing and powered vessels – however small – may fly the Red Ensign (or the Blue if they are members of certain rarefied and Royal Yacht Clubs and Squadrons).

HMY Britannia is run by the Royal Navy and as such flies the White Ensign. I am fairly certain that the Blue Ensign is only flown by civilian vessels carrying ministers of the Crown, but I defer to your more expert knowledge on flag code concerning yachting. I certainly don’t see any particular reason why some clubs might not be granted permission to fly the Blue Ensign; many of their officers are reservists in the Royal Navy and as such would fly it anyway. It is a very common sight to see 16′ sailing craft flying the flag. Not, it seems, in inland waters tho’. However, for these smaller craft it seems a personal choice, a courtesy thing. It is only the Merchant Navy who are obliged to fly the flag. After all, these are documented ships which may be called upon to serve in time of war. Again, fisherfolk are not obliged – and often do not – fly the flag.

My point, at the ultimate beginning of this particular bit of vexillological discourse, was not that British fishing vessels had to fly the Red Ensign, but that they would be in the wrong (and most in violation of the law) to fly the White or Blue Ensign (or the RAF Ensign or the Trinity House Ensign or the Royal Northern Lights Commission Ensign, etc. etc.). They need not fly the flag, but if they do they are only permitted the Red Ensign. Cap’n Fido, who flies the Yacht Ensign of the US from the leech of GOBLIN Port of Redwood City

HMY Britannia has three masts, a jackstaff at her bow and a flagpole at her stern. When she is under sail with HM the Queen onboard, what flag goes where? Hm?                           "In the long run, we’re all dead."                                   -John Maynard Keynes

Response:

David Jaroslav writes:

        Francis Muir says:                 Codswallop. Merchant Navy is a legitimate term in common                 use. Let me quote THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE                 SEA:                         MERCHANT NAVY, a collective name to describe the                         merchant ships on the official registers of any                         one nation. It embraces  merchant ships of all                         varieties, from passenger liners and very large                         tankers and bulk carriers to small coasters, but                         does not normally include vessels used in fishing.         Mmm, mmm, I do love the taste of crow. Okay, I was wrong to         some extent, but I’m pretty that fishing vessels are  supposed         to fly their country’s merchant ensign. They are Merchant Marine,         but by your own definition not Merchant Navy; … Here we go again. The Red Ensign is not limited to the Merchant Navy nor to the Merchant Navy + the fisherfolk which seems to define your class "Merchant Marine". All sailing and powered vessels – however small – may fly the Red Ensign (or the Blue if they are members of certain rarefied and Royal Yacht Clubs and Squadrons). It is a very common sight to see 16′ sailing craft flying the flag. Not, it seems, in inland waters tho’. However, for these smaller craft it seems a personal choice, a courtesy thing. It is only the Merchant Navy who are obliged to fly the flag. After all, these are documented ships which may be called upon to serve in time of war. Again, fisherfolk are not obliged – and often do not – fly the flag. Cap’n Fido, who flies the Yacht Ensign of the US from the leech of GOBLIN Port of Redwood City

Response:

Codswallop. Merchant Navy is a legitimate term in common use. Let me quote THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE SEA:        MERCHANT NAVY, a collective name to describe the merchant        ships on the official registers of any one nation. It        embraces  merchant ships of all varieties, from passenger        liners and very large tankers and bulk carriers to small        coasters, but does not normally include vessels used in        fishing. Cap’n Fido GOBLIN

Mmm, mmm, I do love the taste of crow.     Okay, I was wrong to some extent, but I’m pretty that fishing vessels are  supposed to fly their country’s merchant ensign. They are Merchant Marine, but by your own definition not Merchant Navy; my statement that the UK Merchant Marine fly the Red Ensign is still correct (not just the Merchant Navy as a subset of the Merchant Marine).                       "In the long run, we’re all dead."                                -John Maynard Keynes

Response:

David Jaroslav writes:

        David Hogg or Daan Sandee writes:                 The UK Merchant Navy flies the Red Ensign,                 a.k.a. the Red Duster, a red flag with the                 Union Flag in the upper left.         That would be UK Merchant Marine; the only Navy in the UK         is the Royal Navy. To say "civilian Navy" would be an         oxymoron and merchant vessels are civilian ships. Codswallop. Merchant Navy is a legitimate term in common use. Let me quote THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE SEA:         MERCHANT NAVY, a collective name to describe the merchant         ships on the official registers of any one nation. It         embraces  merchant ships of all varieties, from passenger         liners and very large tankers and bulk carriers to small         coasters, but does not normally include vessels used in         fishing. Cap’n Fido GOBLIN

Response:

Question:

I’m looking for somewhere in Santa Cruz and surrounding areas to throw a dry-fly.  Does anyone know of some place like that … Also, what about catfishing in the local sloughs? Thanks Kim — With a Double Espresso and a British Motorcycle …  |               |_      —-/   / /___   /  |       DoD#    /        –/—       / /—|       800880  /__/       /___/ _____/ /    |

Response:

I’m looking for somewhere in Santa Cruz and surrounding areas to throw a dry-fly.  Does anyone know of some place like that …

You could throw a dry fly in the ocean but you’re not likely to catch anything.  The best place I can think of offhand would be Loch Lomand Reservoir in Felton. If you get there really early in the morning you might pick up a trout or two.  A few years ago I was catching tons on bluegill on wet flies casting from a canoe.  There’s some nice largemouths in the coves as well.  You’d have to wait till next season but you can pick up some steelhead in the San Lorenzo river and Scott creek, north of Davenport. I can’t really think of any good streams in the vicinity that would provide dry fly fishing.  No legal ones anyway. Your best bet is to head to the Sierra. Also, what about catfishing in the local sloughs?

I know a 19lb. catfish was caught out of Loch Lomand as well a couple of years ago.  I don’t know of any sloughs in the Santa Cruz area but the Delta is full of them. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks Kim — With a Double Espresso and a British Motorcycle … |               |_      —-/   / /___   /  |       DoD#    /        –/—       / /—|     800880  /__/       /___/ _____/ /    |

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