Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jon Cook writes: : So, our esteemed ROFFian Ken Fortenberry left for the New Mexico ‘clave : yesterday morning.  Want to guess what the weather is like in that section : of the country today?   d;0) Hah! at weather.com for Farmington, NM, they list:  Today, showers, high 48, low 30 That is sooo eerily funny! The rest is:  Saturday, partly cloudy, 50/28  Sunday, snow, 44/24  Monday, partly cloudy, 38/24 The upside is with clouds come hatches! JonCook. —

It was predictable, Jon.  It is the Forty Curse.  I’ll guarantee he is smiling all day today, and not because he’s fishing. See you on Sunday. Dave

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In the who goes swimming first pool, I’ll pick Louie on the 2nd day.

And I’ll take the sure bet of Louie on Day 1. /daytripper

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In the who goes swimming first pool, I’ll pick Louie on the 2nd day. Paul Dave and all the other SJ clavers, May your traveling be safe, your fishing fine, and your upper half remain dry. Darin

Hell, I got Louie on the first three hours.  I’ve seen that boy wade and it ain’t pretty. If Tripper was there, I’d pick him for "first off the dock." doing the full gainer with a one-and-a-half twist with a fish on, that he has made famous. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Daytrtipper: In the who goes swimming first pool, I’ll pick Louie on the 2nd day. And I’ll take the sure bet of Louie on Day 1. /daytripper

I am bringing my wading walker with me – it folds up and the airline said ok. I *can’t* fall with that.  d;0) D.

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Fort’s curse reversed: he got my ol’ Whiskerface for a room mate.  And I got to visit my mother all day.  I can’t believe y’all guys are worried about the weather.  Northern mountainous New Mexico in mid-December?  Nah – y’all are tough guys, right? Remember a bad day fishing is better than a good day working. Bob’s (fisher)wife in El Paso. "It doesn’t do to leave a dragon out of your calculations if you live near one." Bilbo Baggins.

It was predictable, Jon.  It is the Forty Curse.  I’ll guarantee he is smiling all day today, and not because he’s fishing.  See you on Sunday.  Dave

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As long as there are no uphill *speed-bumps* on the trail to the water, Tripper would do just fine. — Opie  **Panhandling for a better tomorrow!**

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If Tripper was there, I’d pick him for "first off the dock." doing the full gainer with a one-and-a-half twist with a fish on, that he has made famous. Peter

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If’n we can just get Frank Reid to show up, these other stumblebums don’t have a chance, my money is on Fabulous Frank!!  ;-) Frank (living on the memories of the Rapp Clave) Church – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the who goes swimming first pool, I’ll pick Louie on the 2nd day. Paul Dave and all the other SJ clavers, May your traveling be safe, your fishing fine, and your upper half remain dry. Darin Hell, I got Louie on the first three hours.  I’ve seen that boy wade and it ain’t pretty. If Tripper was there, I’d pick him for "first off the dock." doing the full gainer with a one-and-a-half twist with a fish on, that he has made famous. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at

http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Naw, I saw Tripper doing a deep water two-step with a recalcitrant wading staff and he didn’t go down. He’s as sure footed as a millipede. However, he is liable to break something. Once every two years whether he needs to or not. (ankle, collar bone, back, face, back again, neck, knee) Did I leave anything out? Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the who goes swimming first pool, I’ll pick Louie on the 2nd day. Paul Dave and all the other SJ clavers, May your traveling be safe, your fishing fine, and your upper half remain dry. Darin Hell, I got Louie on the first three hours.  I’ve seen that boy wade and it ain’t pretty. If Tripper was there, I’d pick him for "first off the dock." doing the full gainer with a one-and-a-half twist with a fish on, that he has made famous. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at

http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Yeah, the knee is a disappointment – it was one of the last two things that still worked… And to my Canadian friend: sadly, that was only a half-twist. Lost degree of difficulty points, but scored high by not losing the salmon… /daytripper (*Anyone* can catch a fish standing still – where’s the challenge in that? ;^) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Naw, I saw Tripper doing a deep water two-step with a recalcitrant wading staff and he didn’t go down. He’s as sure footed as a millipede. However, he is liable to break something. Once every two years whether he needs to or not. (ankle, collar bone, back, face, back again, neck, knee) Did I leave anything out? Paul In the who goes swimming first pool, I’ll pick Louie on the 2nd day. Paul Dave and all the other SJ clavers, May your traveling be safe, your fishing fine, and your upper half remain dry. Darin Hell, I got Louie on the first three hours.  I’ve seen that boy wade and it ain’t pretty. If Tripper was there, I’d pick him for "first off the dock." doing the full gainer with a one-and-a-half twist with a fish on, that he has made famous. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Full contact Fly fishing. Now that’s a sport.

May well be happening down in the land of enchantment even as we speak (so to speak) if the promises made here in the last month or so carry any weight.     Wolfgang never a satellite receiver around when you need one

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In the who goes swimming first pool,… I’ll take Fortenberry and 2 hours on day 2 for a dozen flys!!

WE HAVE A WINNER ! Dan’l and I went to Float ‘n Fish after lunch on Day 2. Much to my everlasting shame and embarrassment, I purchased a strike indicator. Oh, the flyfishing gods were PISSED ! I took a swim at the top of Audie’s Run just minutes after tying on the friggin’ bobber. I thanked the flyfishing gods for lettin’ me off easy, and used nothing but dry flies for the rest of the trip. Somebody owes Mr. Hart a dozen flies. — Ken Fortenberry

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Dan’l and I went to Float ‘n Fish after lunch on Day 2. Much to my everlasting shame and embarrassment, I purchased a strike indicator.

You PURCHASED a strike indicator!? Do you buy, like, ONE? Bruiser’s strike indicators, made of macrame rope (I swear I’ve seen it used for soft rope halters) are the BEST. They’re easy to install, they float like a bloated corpse (with one application of floatant), and they move with the faintest strike. They saved my cookies on the last day. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Full contact Fly fishing. Now that’s a sport. "can I get a ruling on this? You take a drop two rod lengths from the moose."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, the knee is a disappointment – it was one of the last two things that still worked… And to my Canadian friend: sadly, that was only a half-twist. Lost degree of difficulty points, but scored high by not losing the salmon… /daytripper (*Anyone* can catch a fish standing still – where’s the challenge in that? ;^) Naw, I saw Tripper doing a deep water two-step with a recalcitrant wading staff and he didn’t go down. He’s as sure footed as a millipede. However, he is liable to break something. Once every two years whether he needs to or not. (ankle, collar bone, back, face, back again, neck, knee) Did I leave anything out? Paul In the who goes swimming first pool, I’ll pick Louie on the 2nd day. Paul Dave and all the other SJ clavers, May your traveling be safe, your fishing fine, and your upper half remain dry. Darin Hell, I got Louie on the first three hours.  I’ve seen that boy wade and it ain’t pretty. If Tripper was there, I’d pick him for "first off the dock." doing the full gainer with a one-and-a-half twist with a fish on, that he has made famous. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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So, our esteemed ROFFian Ken Fortenberry left for the New Mexico ‘clave yesterday morning.  Want to guess what the weather is like in that section of the country today?   d;0)

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Dave and all the other SJ clavers, May your traveling be safe, your fishing fine, and your upper half remain dry. Darin

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and your upper half remain dry.

Is that like wishing them leaky waders? <g — Charlie…

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In the who goes swimming first pool, I’ll pick Louie on the 2nd day. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave and all the other SJ clavers, May your traveling be safe, your fishing fine, and your upper half remain dry. Darin

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So, our esteemed ROFFian Ken Fortenberry left for the New Mexico ‘clave yesterday morning.  Want to guess what the weather is like in that section of the country today?   d;0)

Do us all a favor Dave, and pack some splints, bandages, iodine, sutures, and a couple of big boxes to ship a pair of busted up old ROFFians home in.       Wolfgang fretting over who is to act as referee

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Hah! You obviously have never witnessed the spectacle that I bring to the art of wading. Danl leaving for the SJ, somehow I’ve got more stuff for a 4 day trip than I did for 3 weeks in Montana… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the who goes swimming first pool, I’ll pick Louie on the 2nd day. Paul Dave and all the other SJ clavers, May your traveling be safe, your fishing fine, and your upper half remain dry. Darin

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In the who goes swimming first pool, I’ll pick Louie on the 2nd day. Paul

I’ll take Fortenberry and 2 hours on day 2 for a dozen flys!! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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and your upper half remain dry. Is that like wishing them leaky waders? <g — Charlie…

Or pissing their pants. Ernie

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Actually, here’s the safest bet of all: Forty’s already arguing with his guide about indicator usage. It will be cold like crazy.  Dan’l if it’s not too late to ask, when do you arrive?  I’m picking up rw at 7 or so and we’re heading to the river from the airport.  We’ll arrive about midnight and start fishing at 2 or so (g). Also, i guess bob jones is already there and blackcat’s on his way. bruce h — bare your soul let your spirit burn out along the road to no return – r.e. keen Before you buy.

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Wolfgang: Do us all a favor Dave, and pack some splints, bandages, iodine, sutures, and a couple of big boxes to ship a pair of busted up old ROFFians home in.

Dave, who will try to see things are copesetic at all times…

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Question:

I’m a newbie to fishing, but after a dozen or so trips to local lakes, I have found that I get few or no bites on bait or lures when fish are jumping.  I assume the jumping is for insects on the surface, but it’s hard to believe the fish are so selective and coordinated that they switch from one food type to another just like that.  Anyone have similar experience? and any ideas about it??

If they are feeding then why not cast a fly to them? richard

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I’m a newbie to fishing, but after a dozen or so trips to local lakes, I have found that I get few or no bites on bait or lures when fish are jumping.  I assume the jumping is for insects on the surface, but it’s hard to believe the fish are so selective and coordinated that they switch from one food type to another just like that.  Anyone have similar experience? and any ideas about it?? arjay

    Since you are a newbie, don’t believe anything anyone says about this. All you need to know is ….. if the fish don’t bite on your offering yet are obviously feeding ….. change your offering.     Did you know there is a conspiracy to take all of your money.  Oh yes! Tackle manufacturers have been investing in raising and then planting fish that ignore your bait.  If you are hooked on fishing…..you will spend the rest of your life spending huge amounts of money in the never ending attempt to find what the fish like to eat.     Some day you will think you know what it is and you will tell a newbie what to do.  He will embarrass you in front of everybody when he doesn’t catch anything.         Dan in Quebec

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A funny story about trout. I was fishing at the Chatfield Spillway near Denver and saw a whole spillway full of Rainbow Trout surfacing and jumping all over the place. I and three other people broke out our flyrods and used everything we had and didn’t catch anything. A game warden came by and started laughing hysterically at us. I asked him what was up and he said "it was feeding time at the hatchery." These stocker trout "beg" for food at a certain time of the day, depending upon where the sun is in the sky.  They’ll hop out of the water and just hang out.  After being in the water for a while, they stop it, but the first week it annoys the heck out of fisherman. Dan Dow

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Are they jumping out of the water, clearing it.  Those are often carp, and all I can figure is they jump for joy, not feeding!  They do this a lot early in the morning If you are seeing swirls in the water rather than fish clearing it, they are probably feeding on something on the surface.  Try topwater or flies I wrote an article on my site about an experience I had.  Kept seeing fish come to the top at Lake Oconee here in GA.  Could not get them to hit.  One finally came up right at the boat and I saw it – a brown bullhead!    I caught one later on a plastic worm. Ronnie http://fishing.about.com

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I’m a newbie to fishing, but after a dozen or so trips to local lakes, I have found that I get few or no bites on bait or lures when fish are jumping.  I assume the jumping is for insects on the surface, but it’s hard to believe the fish are so selective and coordinated that they switch from one food type to another just like that.  Anyone have similar experience? and any ideas about it?? arjay

–When salmon are jumping and rolling on the surface, you might as well sit back and watch the show.  The biters are on the bottom of the stream or river, not up on top. Sharp Hooks, Pat Holdzit Fishing Products Inc. http://www.holdzit.com Before you buy.

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I’m a newbie to fishing, but after a dozen or so trips to local lakes, I have found that I get few or no bites on bait or lures when fish are jumping.  I assume the jumping is for insects on the surface, but it’s hard to believe the fish are so selective and coordinated that they switch from one food type to another just like that.  Anyone have similar experience? and any ideas about it?? arjay

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Hi arjay, It depends.  One area (on a river) where I fish often, the Sturgeon will "go nuts" at about dusk, these are very big fish jumping out of the water like a breaching whale.  The Sturgeon jump typically has no effect on the bite of Catfish, Bass, Walleye and Crappie that are common in the area. On the other hand, if the fish you are fishing for is surfacing and you are fishing worms on the bottom, you are probably in for a long sit.  You would need to target your bait and presentation to the feeding activity of the fish.  One afternoon last week, I was at the spot mentioned above fishing crawlers on the bottom.  Some fish was feeding sporadically on the surface and I was getting no bite.  I threw out a crawler under a float, about 15" below the surface.  The float drifted with the current into the "strike zone" where the mystery fish was surfacing and the float was down.   I was on to a pretty good bass. Jumping alone can only offer you clues.  Anytime the bite is slow, you should change the presentation (possibly many times).  If the change in presentation doesn’t work, you might want to change location. As far as selectivity… could be!  Depends on the fish.  Trout will often be completely selective, but usually not this late in the season.  Next time you get to the lake, bring a grasshopper or attractor fly and a big float. Place the float about 2-3′ above the fly and use the weight on the float to cast. Good Luck! Hope this helps, Fritz

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a newbie to fishing, but after a dozen or so trips to local lakes, I have found that I get few or no bites on bait or lures when fish are jumping.  I assume the jumping is for insects on the surface, but it’s hard to believe the fish are so selective and coordinated that they switch from one food type to another just like that.  Anyone have similar experience? and any ideas about it?? arjay

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Question:

Great report, guys.  Peter, are you standing in a hole in that picture?  <g Never saw Forty in waders.  Hope I never do again.  <g  I like your hat, Forty.  Eff ‘em all if they don’t! Glad you guys had a great trip, and like Charlie has said, I find it hard to believe it did not rain.   Dave LaCourse

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They call it "The Carnival" because during steelhead season it is packed with anglers. On a Monday morning, it was relatively uncrowded. "Relatively" being the key word.

Welcome to Michigan! A great day of fishing. The Muskegon River is a beautiful piece of water. It supports a spawning population of steelhead and Chinook salmon. It’s not really a trout stream, though. All the trout are stockers and they don’t get any natural reproduction.

I believe there are places where you can find resident trout.  I was speaking with a guy last night who has been fishing the Muskegon on and off for the last three weeks.  He said he caught several browns and rainbows in the 16" – 19".  Of course he was fishing private water that is rarely encountered except for people who are taking long float trips. Good to hear you guys got into some steelies.  I’ve been meaning to go out this year but only made it out once and left early after only two hours of fishing.  I was disgusted by the "relatively" uncrowded conditions.  Did catch some trout but on my 9 wt they weren’t too much fun. Mu

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Glad you guys had a great trip, and like Charlie has said, I find it hard to believe it did not rain.   Dave LaCourse

Worse, it snowed. Peter

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real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html

The truth ain’t always ugly.  Nice pics, whoever took them – both you and Ken did a good job of that. Delorme’s can be wrong (the Michigan one at least).  They don’t show all the dirt roads and there are some *roads* on that map that are just dirt trails.  Some of the names of the roads change as they cross county lines or highways and this is not always clearly marked on the map.  Also, the green color on the Delorme is supposed to represent public land but the detail is not fine enough to show you that on many of these streams there are in fact houses along the river.  I don’t mind too much though, the exploration part is just part of the fun of fishing.   BTW, I like Ken’s hat – got a Kangol just like it, earflaps and all. Mu

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<great report snipped Nice Report Ken.  You reminded me of the first time on the San Juan last November.  I left my wading shoes in the car after my first day fishing, got down to the river the next morning and they were frozen solid. bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

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A great day of fishing. The Muskegon River is a beautiful piece of water. It supports a spawning population of steelhead and Chinook salmon. It’s not really a trout stream, though. All the trout are stockers and they don’t get any natural reproduction. I believe there are places where you can find resident trout.  I was speaking with a guy last night who has been fishing the Muskegon on and off for the last three weeks.  He said he caught several browns and rainbows in the 16" – 19". …

That’s right. Residents aka holdovers. I caught a nice 12" rainbow, he didn’t put up much of a fight against a 7wt. Those 6-8 inchers will be 12-14 inchers by fall and there are holdovers that make it through the winter. When I say it’s not a trout stream I mean that trout do not reproduce in the stream, they are all stocked. The spawning population of steelies and salmon head out to Lake Michigan after their sexual escapades in the Muskegon and return year after year to spawn. Their offspring do the same. While some would claim they’re not "wild" because they were stocked in the first place they are "natural" in my book. Unlike the trout. — Ken Fortenberry

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Why can’t the rainbows spawn if the steelhead and salmon can? Are they outcompeted by the bigger fish?

Good question. I don’t know. I’m not familiar with the Muskegon at all and don’t know much about it. BTW, the salmon don’t return year after year. They die. I think I’ve heard of experiments with Atlantics in the Great Lakes, but the vast majority are Pacific salmon.

That’s right, the salmon that spawn in the Muskegon are Chinooks. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken Have they ever tried Cutts in these rivers? Dave

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Have they ever tried Cutts in these rivers?

Don’t know, David. I’m more familiar with Wisconsin DNR than Michigan. So far as I know, Wisconsin has not. — Ken Fortenberry

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That’s right. Residents aka holdovers. I caught a nice 12" rainbow, he didn’t put up much of a fight against a 7wt. Those 6-8 inchers will be 12-14 inchers by fall and there are holdovers that make it through the winter. When I say it’s not a trout stream I mean that trout do not reproduce in the stream, they are all stocked.

My guess is that it has nothing to do with water quality but other factors such as: available spawning space (competition from the big guys), fishing pressure, low survivability of the stockers (poor genetics?), and perhaps seasonal factors that affect residents but not migratories. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Unlike the trout. — Ken Fortenberry

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The truth ain’t always ugly.  Nice pics, whoever took them – both you and Ken did a good job of that. Delorme’s can be wrong (the Michigan one at least).  They don’t show all the dirt roads and there are some *roads* on that map that are just dirt trails.  Some of the names of the roads change as they cross county lines or highways and this is not always clearly marked on the map.  Also, the green color on the Delorme is supposed to represent public land but the detail is not fine enough to show you that on many of these streams there are in fact houses along the river.  I don’t mind too much though, the exploration part is just part of the fun of fishing.   BTW, I like Ken’s hat – got a Kangol just like it, earflaps and all. Mu

I was just being an ass.  The Delorme showed a Pettit road that lead straight to Croton.  It was a goat track and it ended at some power lines where trees and stumps had been dragged across the right-of-way. One would guess from the Delorme that it was a decent road.  Ken was right, the Delorme was wrong. Peter

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Great trip report guys.   Thanks for the smiles. Joe F.

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Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html

Nice report and pictures, but it didn’t seem to be raining so are you sure that was really Fortenberry in the festive chapeau? — Charlie…

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……I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages.

I’ll open the bidding at 5 bucks.

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……I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. I’ll open the bidding at 5 bucks.

i’ll see that 5 and raise, a hush falls over the table, hee-hee-hee…. a bottle of wild turkey for maine clave — Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com http://auctions.yahoo.com/booth/ezflyfish_com Used, Rare, & Out-of-Print Books: http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-2.html

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Good report.  Nice to see pictures on your site. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter is the one on the right with the teeny weeny bright hen and I’m the one on the left with the huge brawny buck. [a somewhat accurate story snipped] — Ken Fortenberry Teeny weeny hen my ass.  Just to set the record straight, I caught the hens, Ken caught the bucks.  Not trying to imply something here, but I’m starting question his "orientation" if you know what I mean.  (Say no more.   Say no more.  Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)  Any way, if he keeps up with those exaggerations, I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Marvellous report, great pictures too. I really enjoyed that.  Thanks TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Holy macaroni! Who the hell are the two "dudes" in the pictures with the guide?

The good looking "dude" is me.  I’m the one with the rod.  The fish is the thing with fins.  The guide is holding the thing with fins. Notice I made Ken’s fish picture big and my fish picture small.  Am I a great person or what, eh? Where the heck did Ken get that hat??

He loves it – and I had to put up with all of the sniggers from the bait fishermen. And what’s this – Ken fishing for stockers?!?

with a gusto, I might add That’s it. The world is coming to an end. /daytripper (awe-palled…)

Naw, just a blip.  Now if he’d used spawn on the end of his T&T  . . . . Peter

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Teeny weeny hen my ass.  Just to set the record straight, I caught the hens, Ken caught the bucks.  Not trying to imply something here, but I’m starting question his "orientation" if you know what I mean.  (Say no more.   Say no more.  Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)  Any way, if he keeps up with those exaggerations, I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html

Holy macaroni! Who the hell are the two "dudes" in the pictures with the guide? Where the heck did Ken get that hat?? And what’s this – Ken fishing for stockers?!? That’s it. The world is coming to an end. /daytripper (awe-palled…)

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Nice report. Thanks, almost like being there, especially the bloody freezing feet ! TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Peter is the one on the right with the teeny weeny bright hen and I’m the one on the left with the huge brawny buck.

[a somewhat accurate story snipped] — Ken Fortenberry

Teeny weeny hen my ass.  Just to set the record straight, I caught the hens, Ken caught the bucks.  Not trying to imply something here, but I’m starting question his "orientation" if you know what I mean.  (Say no more.   Say no more.  Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)  Any way, if he keeps up with those exaggerations, I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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… Where the heck did Ken get that hat??

Hey, that’s a great hat, fleece, Goretex AND ear flaps,…ahhh, ear flaps. Peter made fun of it too, can you imagine, and him looking like the Unabomber in that hood. And what’s this – Ken fishing for stockers?!?

Yeah I know, it made the guide happy. I considered it part of his tip. Those fish were put in the river the previous Thursday, all were 6-8 inches and dumber than dumb. The guide said if there’s anything in your fly box that you’d like to pull out at some point and say, "Can you believe I caught a fish on THAT.", now is the time to tie it on. They had six inches of snow the previous Friday and he said they were rising furiously to snow flakes. — Ken Fortenberry

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We picked the Muskegon River in Michigan because it’s roughly equidistant between my home in Urbana, IL and Peter Charles’ home in Burlington, Ontario. As fishing season 2000 started to unfold and dates started firming up, it was starting to look like Peter and I wouldn’t have a chance to wet a line together. I can’t make it to Maine ‘Clave, Peter can’t make it to Spring Fling so obviously we had to do something. It was basically put a finger on the map, let’s fish there. We hired a guide for Monday and met at the motel late morning on Sunday. I had my canoe and the plan was to buy licenses and familiarize ourselves with the area before the guided trip the next day. While buying the licenses I discovered a couple of things. First, if you catch a female steelhead early in the day, just gut her on the spot and you’ve got bait for the rest of the day. This from the very friendly bait guys at the Trading Post. I said, "Yeah, thanks. What a great idea." They did give us some very helpful advice on access points and I genuinely like talking to those guys even if I never would gut a hen on the spot. Second, Peter lies about his weight when buying a fishing license. We had a pleasant canoe trip from Croton Dam to the Thornapple Ave. access. Very crowded on a Sunday afternoon and we canoed more than we fished. We did see plenty of steelhead, though. Rather, Peter saw plenty of steelhead, I had left my polarized glasses in the car. Monday morning was cold. My wading shoes were wet from the day before and they turned into ice cubes while sitting in the drift boat. Hard for me to be comfy with cold feet and my feet were encased in ice for the first hour of the trip. We anchored the boat at a place the guides call "The Carnival", an eighth of a mile stretch of riffles and pools about a mile below Croton Dam. They call it "The Carnival" because during steelhead season it is packed with anglers. On a Monday morning, it was relatively uncrowded. "Relatively" being the key word. I got the first couple of hookups but botched them badly. Broke off the fish almost immediately. Peter landed the first steelie after a couple of his own botched hookups. I quickly followed and caught the same buck that had broken me off earlier, so was able to retrieve BOTH of my #14 black stonefly nymphs. We moved down a ways, spotted some fish, anchored and then waded into position. Peter was on almost immediately, our guide looked downstream, looked at the hole where he’d positioned me and said "Here’s our chance for a double." The guide waded down to net Peter’s fish and before he got into position I was on to a fish. The double. Guides love ‘em, and it makes for a great photo op. The first fish took me into the backing but this one seemed content to just sit in a hole and DEFY me. I watched the action downstream as Peter and the guide did the intricate netting dance and then I yelled down to Peter, "Here’s our double !" I worked down to get my fish next to the net so the guide could net both, one right after the other. He did, we got a quick photo, and Peter will post it on his site soon. Peter is the one on the right with the teeny weeny bright hen and I’m the one on the left with the huge brawny buck. I don’t know what Peter was using, I caught that one a Hex nymph. A great day of fishing. The Muskegon River is a beautiful piece of water. It supports a spawning population of steelhead and Chinook salmon. It’s not really a trout stream, though. All the trout are stockers and they don’t get any natural reproduction. Our guide was very good. I have only mentioned one guide in this forum as someone I recommend. That was Robin Cunningham of Gallatin Gateway, Montana. Today, I recommend the second. Dustan Harley of Ripple Guide Service. http://www.rippleguideservice.com/ Dustan had us on the water for nearly 11 hours and was at his most impressive when he stopped the boat, and said "Get out your 4 wts." It was the PERFECT interlude. We tossed stimulators and griffiths gnats to rising stockers. After chucking lead for most of the day with 7 wts, it was a real joy to actually flyfish with a dry fly. We caught dumb little 8" fish and it was a hoot. Dustan will be in Livingston, Montana during Western ‘Clave. He’s a good guy to go fishin’ with. I do question his taste in beer, after the trip when offered a Sleeman’s or a Budweiser, he chose the Sleeman’s. Hey, I said he was a good guide, I won’t vouch for his taste in beer. After that long day in the wind and the cold you might expect a couple of old farts to just go back to motel room, drink a beer in their underwear and go immediately to sleep. Peter and I partied till the wee hours, drank a half a fifth of Wild Turkey, and had to shoo off the dancing girls at daylight. That’s our story and we’re sticking to it. — Ken Fortenberry

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I very much doubt you could break an 8lb tippet with a 5wt rod without either seriously damaging the rod or pointing the rod straight at the fish. The secret of all fishing is to use balanced tackle, that way you can use your tackle to it’s maximum without running the risk of damaging it. — Regards Peter Kay (Remove "nospam" to email)  :The guy is full of unmitigated bull hooie.  The tippet is the defining :element.  If you can break the tippet with the rod, and the tippet is

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How tightly do you set your drag?  If you point your rod tip towards the fish and set the drag higher than when fishing with a 4 lb tippet then sure you will definitely apply more pressure.  Your drag setting and how you hold the rod while fighting fish will determine the answer to your question.  My guess is that you’ve got the drag setting at less than 4 lbs (would you dare jiggle a 1/2 gallon carton of milk from the end of your 6 wt rod?).  So the guy at the shop is probably right.

Sorry Mu, You’re wrong, and so is the guy in the shop. Drag has nothing to do with it, the breaking strength of the tippet and how much pressure you can put to the fish as a result of that breaking strength is the question here The size of the rod only matters in regards to the weight of the line when casting and in your desire to keep that rod intact when playing a fish. If you are using 4 lb. tippet on an 8 wt. rod there is no way you can apply as much pressure on the fish than you can with an equivalent length rod in 6 wt. and 8 lb. tippet. The only reason that it would be better for the fish to use a 4 lb. tippet is that the fish will probably break off sooner and recover faster. Any steelhead worth half his salt would destroy a 4 lb. tippet in seconds. If the angler was very skilled he would be able to baby that fish in eventually, but at what price? The fish will be mortally exhausted from a half hour struggle to the beach. Chances of recovery of this fish is poor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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I thought a conundrum was what you wore for safe sex!!

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<< I thought a conundrum was what you wore for safe sex!! Nope, that’s a carborundrum.  A conundrum is is a kind of Arabian boss.

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You are thinking of a condominium. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO http://users.ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I thought a conundrum was what you wore for safe sex!!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  The rod wt does make a difference. If you are fighting a 2lb trout with say 6x tippet you are more likely to land the fish with a 4wt rod then a 6wt rod. The 4wt is more giving at any given drag setting and will absorb the shock of the fishes fight. The more severe the struggle the more a lighter rod helps. I’ve seen newby fishermen (or bass fishermen new to flyfishing) loose lots of fish with a 6wt rod. I give them my 4 wt and they land the fish. So the shock absorption is for both ends of the rod (fish and fisherman’s action.)  So you have to set the drag down for a stiffer rod given the same fish and tippet. Few fish are lost just due to a slow steady pull of a fish where the drag setting only is the consideration, but rather to a fish jerking the line and adding to the pull. I guess said in another way a 2 lb weight is less likely to break a tippet then a 2 lb fish since one is a dynamic force that exceeds a 2lb pull. Sorry Mu, You’re wrong, and so is the guy in the shop. Drag has nothing to do with it, the breaking strength of the tippet and how much pressure you can put to the fish as a result of that breaking strength is the question here The size of the rod only matters in regards to the weight of the line when casting and in your desire to keep that rod intact when playing a fish. If you are using 4 lb. tippet on an 8 wt. rod there is no way you can apply as much pressure on the fish than you can with an equivalent length rod in 6 wt. and 8 lb. tippet. The only reason that it would be better for the fish to use a 4 lb. tippet is that the fish will probably break off sooner and recover faster. Any steelhead worth half his salt would destroy a 4 lb. tippet in seconds. If the angler was very skilled he would be able to baby that fish in eventually, but at what price? The fish will be mortally exhausted from a half hour struggle to the beach. Chances of recovery of this fish is poor.

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I think anyone who actually believes that an 8-weight rod can’t put more pressure on a fish than a 6-weight rod has never caught fish big enough to show them the difference. Take the two rods out striper fishing this spring with a ten-pound tippet on each and you’ll be immediately enlightened.   I can’t believe this thread has gone on so long. Bob Scott

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To some extent it doesn’t matter, although it depends how good a fisherman you are. The best way to put max pressure on a fish is to point the rod directly at the fish; but then it doesn’t matter what the rod weight is! To put the least pressure on a fish, you hold the rod vertical, at which angle a 15 foot 10 weight only puts about two pound pull on a fish. You can demonstrate this with a spring balance, although this will give a higher reading than expected – remember that the fish can’t exactly dig its heels in. Any angle below 45 degrees begins to put a fish under pressure, and the stiffness of the rod and the efficiency of the reel drag will begin to count. However, if the fish is a long way out, and a deal of line is drowned, then other factors are in play which alter your ability to exert pressure. I have seen a guide stop a bonefish in its tracks using an eight pound tippet simply by pointing the rod directly at the fish. I have seen the same done with a chinook. Mind, it is dull compared to playing them… Andrew Andrew N. Herd Associate Editor, Waterlog Magazine http://www.demon.co.uk/medlarpress/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, becauseI have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutly no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statment on his part true? Andrew

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pressure on a fish than a 6-weight rod has never caught fish big enough to show them the difference.

is a 20 pound sleelhead big enough? or how about a thirty pound plus chinook? Take the two rods out striper fishing this spring with a ten-pound tippet on each and you’ll be immediately enlightened.

Ten pound tippet is ten pounds breaking strength, with a 6 or an 8 it is still ten pounds. If I put enough pressure on a tippet to break the tippet that is ten pounds, be it with a six or eight that is irrelevant. The big difference is that it is easier to cast the big flies a longer distance. I can’t believe this thread has gone on so long.

That’s an invitation to a flame war Bob Scott

Andrew McFarland

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The way that I look at this is that, like Andrew said, ten puonds is ten pounds. One could land a 1500 pound marlin on a 4 wt (heavy leader, naturally) if he had around 2000 yards of backing. Any fish can be landed on any wieght. Just with one rod, the fish might be exhausted and another rod would make the fight last 15 seconds. A six weight is fine. Bryce

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  I think anyone who actually believes that an 8-weight rod can’t put more   pressure on a fish than a 6-weight rod has never caught fish big enough to   show them the difference.   <SNIP   Bob Scott

YES!  And why the hell one would confuse the issue by forcing the stronger rod to have lighter tippet is beyond me.  Apples to apples.   8wt is stiffer than 6wt.  8wt allows the possibility of putting more pressure on a fish than 6wt.  It is that simple. -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html email: replace the "this_address_is_wrong" with "tgades"

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Ten pound tippet is ten pounds breaking strength, with a 6 or an 8 it is still ten pounds. If I put enough pressure on a tippet to break the tippet that is ten pounds, be it with a six or eight that is irrelevant. I can’t believe this thread has gone on so long. That’s an invitation to a flame war Andrew McFarland

Not an invitation to a flame war at all.   Here’s the deal: naturally, the tippet strength is the limiting factor of the TOTAL AMOUNT of pressure you can put on the fish, regardless of rod weight rating.  But it’s not that simple.   The rod is applying pressure to the fish anytime it is flexed against him, whether the fish is moving away or not.  The pressure varies with the amount of flex put in the rod, angle the rod is held, etc.  This pressure comes from the rod’s desire to maintain its original, straight shape.  Since it takes more pressure to bend a similar-length 8-weight rod than a 6-weight rod, to the same arc, the heavier rod exerts more pressure on the fish as it tries to straighten… even when the fish isn’t moving, and regardless of the tippet strength or drag setting.  Follow me?     You’ve got to try it for yourself.   Like I said, take the two sized rods, set the drags the same with a scale, and fight a few big fish.  The heavier rod will whip them quicker.   The relentless pull of a flexed rod really tires the fish.  When the fish runs, the drag pressure dogs him.  But when he’s not running away, the pressure of the rod trying to straighten is what is pulling on him.  A heavier rod pulls harder. Bob Scott

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think anyone who actually believes that an 8-weight rod can’t put more pressure on a fish than a 6-weight rod has never caught fish big enough to show them the difference. Take the two rods out striper fishing this spring with a ten-pound tippet on each and you’ll be immediately enlightened.   I can’t believe this thread has gone on so long. Bob Scott    This is sooo true. The fish has to work much harder against an     8 wt rod.   –tony

You all want to pass some of that stuff yer smokin’?  I’ve caught plenty of fish in the size range to be able to tell the difference – Silvers, steelhead, chums.  My six weight Sage can break a fish off on undamaged climax 2x tippet (about 10lb test), if held right on a strong enough fish. My 8 wgt can break heavier tippet, so what.  With 2x tippet, it simply cannot pull harder than the six weight, since both are capable of breaking the line.   This is explained by an obscure branch of science known as physics.   What you all are saying is the equivalent of saying that a pickup can tow more than a bicycle, even though they are both connected to the trailer by 8 lb test.  Replace the connection with a log chain, and you’re correct.  However, log chain is fairly poor in it’s energy transference to the fly.  Tough to tie a clinch knot, as well. In the range of tippets that the fellow is talking about, with the rods he is talking about,  the six weight is fine for steelhead. I had ample opportunity to experiment in this area two years ago when I broke my 8 weight on a salmon, and had to finish the trip catching salmon with the six weight.  After the trip, came back and was fishing sea run cutts.  Hooked a big one, and still had the Alaska strike instinct (rear back hard, pull hard with the line hand).  Popped the fly in one of the biggest cutthroats I’ve ever seen, who entertained me and my buddy with three jumps down stream, fly still in his jaw. 3x tippet, good knots, 6 wgt.  I know whereof I speak… — Andrew Brunette

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The 6wt rod I am referring to is a Sage 690 sp+ that is a  stiff rod, I can put LOTS of pressure on a fish. I have yet to meet a steelie that the rod couldn’t handle, I keep a short line and fight the fish using angles. In other words, I keep the rod in opposite to the direction of movement of the fish, to the side. I find that after watching the other guys up here use their 8wts for steelies they don’t put anywhere near the amount of pressure that I do. they mostly use 6lb tippet, some times going down to 4lb, I never use anything less than 8lb. If that prevents me from catching fish so be it, but if it makes the difference between me catching fish and then over playing them then I will not do that. I have out fished guys using 8wts with 4 lb and even float fishermen. I feel that I can put the coals on just as much with those guys. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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 My six weight Sage can break a fish off on undamaged climax 2x tippet (about 10lb test), if held right on a strong enough fish. My 8 wgt can break heavier tippet, so what.  With 2x tippet, it simply cannot pull harder than the six weight, since both are capable of breaking the line.   This is explained by an obscure branch of science known as physics.

…that you obviously have no grasp of. You didn’t read or comprehend my post. And, by the way,  my two-weight can break an undamaged 10lb. tippet, too, if "held right."   You are not breaking that tippet with rod pressure. If your six weight can lift ten pounds, I’ll eat my eight and nine weight rods.  Like the other guy said, go ahead and put a ten-pound weight on the floor, put some heavy tippet on your miracle six-weight, get out your warranty card, and try to lift it up.  I know you won’t try it.   An eight-weight will lift more weight (still not ten pounds!) — apply more pressure — than a six-weight.  Period. Why do you think people use 12-weights to fight big tarpon?  Because they need a 12-weight to cast a lightly-dressed 3/0 fly?   Not. Dan Gracia, why don’t you jump in on this one?  You have a great way of explaining things. Bob Scott

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If your six weight can lift ten pounds, I’ll eat my eight and nine weight rods.  Like the other guy said, go ahead and put a ten-pound weight on the floor, put some heavy tippet on your miracle six-weight, get out your warranty card, and try to lift it up.  I know you won’t try it.   An eight-weight will lift more weight (still not ten pounds!) — apply more pressure — than a six-weight.  Period. Why do you think people use 12-weights to fight big tarpon?  Because they need a 12-weight to cast a lightly-dressed 3/0 fly?   Not.

I think you have all forgotten the original "conondrum" , whether a 6 wt with 8 lb test can apply  an equal amt of pressure as 8wt with 4lb tippet. to compare these two factors we apply logic and search for least common denominator between the two. For our purposes we will settle on the 4lb tippet. While on an equal basis, an 8wt rod will be able to apply more pressure than a 6wt, in this situation, the most amt of pressure the 8wt rod will be able to apply is 4lbs before the leader breaks. Likewise, the 6wt rod with 4lb leader will max out at 4lbs of pressure before the leader breaks.( hopefully we can all agree that a 6wt is capable of breaking 4lb tippet even though it may not be capable of breaking anything higher.) Since the 8wt is limited to 4 lb test, the real question becomes whether or not a 6 wt can apply more than 4lbs of pressure given the chance by using a stronger tippet, say 8lbs. whether it can or not doesn’t matter. the "conondrum" has been answered. Both rods will be able to apply at least 4 lbs of pressure, so in this exact situation, it doesn’t make a difference which setup you use, as both will be able to apply at least the same amt of pressure, so using a 6wt doesn’t put you at any diadvantage compared to the 8wt. Unaccounted factors: 1)No one ever uses their full tippet breaking strength. Applying 4 lbs of pressure to a 4 lb tippet is inviting disaster. 2lbs would be more like it, but we won’t take this into consideration as it will bring up more "conundrums". 2) Whether you can lift a weight with your rod is not a realistic comparison of breaking strength.it doesn’t take into account the speed of the pressure application and water tension which equally apply in real situations.                    

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I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure?

The 6wt with 8lb tippet can put on more pressure. Ligther, more flexable rods protect tippets better. A lighter rod will flex more in the butt but you can still put pressure on the fish. The only reason people say you can’t put pressure on is fear of breaking the rod so size of fish is the question. How big are the steelhead you’re after? If they’re in the 4-10lb range then use the 6wt. If they are in the 15-20lb range, use an 8-9wt. The person using a stiffer, heavier rod with light tippet is putting more risk on the fish. Cheers, Jack

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastised for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told that I should be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, because have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutely no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statement on his part true?

Andrew, Another point is this discussion is that anyone who would chastise another as to one’s method of fishing, bothers me. Fred Halford and others includes…. As long as it is legal, reasonably sporting, and respects property rights and the rights of others near you, you ought to be able to fish with what works for you……  With a steady pull, one cannot exert 8 pounds of pressure on a tippet with a 9 foot rod….  So I think the way you apply pressure and way you avoid letting the fish rest between runs and pulls has a lot to do with how quickly one can land a fish… For example a fish hooked in the upper lip can be made to raise its head while fighting a very quickly tired…. as compared to one hooked in the rear lower edge of the mandible.  If you have ever accidently hooked a fish in tail, you will know the outter limit of this difference…  Keeping the fish upstream of you will also result in a quicker finish…..  And in very clear water, that is not too fast, and not too deep, and 8 pound tippet may provide many fewer hook-ups…  Lots of side to this issue…. but for someone to say….. only fish the way I advocate…. well, I would chalk that up and move on.. Alan E. Hoover       to quote one of my favorite authors: "Fly fishing is such great fun, it really ought to be done in bed"  John Voelker, aka Robert Traver

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, becauseI have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutly no sense to me.

The guy is full of unmitigated bull hooie.  The tippet is the defining element.  If you can break the tippet with the rod, and the tippet is strong enough to be appropriate for the fish, the rod is fine.  And 3x tippet, from a reputable manufacturer, is strong enough for the average steelhead.  If you were expecting to catch 20 lb fish all day, I might sing a different story, but the 8 to 12 lb fish I run into can be brought to the beach in 5 minutes with 8lb test leader, and that seems to let them swim away safely.   I have caught 15 lb steelhead with my six weight, using 3x (=8lb) tippet, and been able to whip the steelhead quickly.  I use 8lb leader for gear fishing with a meat stick, with the same, sporting, results.   I think the average fisherman does not realize how much pressure can be put on a fish with today’s tippet material.   — Andrew Brunette

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How tightly do you set your drag?  If you point your rod tip towards the fish and set the drag higher than when fishing with a 4 lb tippet then sure you will definitely apply more pressure.  Your drag setting and how you hold the rod while fighting fish will determine the answer to your question.  My guess is that you’ve got the drag setting at less than 4 lbs (would you dare jiggle a 1/2 gallon carton of milk from the end of your 6 wt rod?).  So the guy at the shop is probably right.  Mu Young Lee         Ann Arbor, MI  o             oooo                          o   o   o o   o o o  o – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, becauseI have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutly no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statment on his part true? Andrew

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Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastised for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told that I should be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, because have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutely no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statement on his part true? Andrew

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Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, becauseI have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutly no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statment on his part true? Andrew

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastised for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told that I should be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, because have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutely no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statement on his part true?

Hi Andrew, Like many answers, this one is "it all depends".   Obvoiusly 4 pound test line (presuming it is rated accurately) will break before 8 lb test.  But the question is, "how much of that 8lb. test capacity are you really using?" The answer is "not nearly as much as you think your are." If you hook up your 6 wt. to a Chatillon scale and start bending the heck out of it, you will find it very hard to exert more than 5 lbs. of steady pressure (don’t break your rod trying to get that little bit more!).  Quick jerks will exceed it but not steady pressure which is what you’re using when you’re fighting fish.  An 8 wt. rod is much more capable of exerting that amount of steady pressure, though 8lbs of steady pressure will bend most 8 wt rods well into the butt.  If you both used 8 lb. tippet then I’d say the 8wt. would be able to apply more of the tippet’s capacity more consistently than the 6wt. So, depending on how you fight the fish, the 8wt. would certainly be more capable of applying constant pressure at 4 lbs. than the 6 wt.  An 8wt will however break 4lb. test pretty consistently so it requires a very good touch. If the comparison had been a 6wt. with 8lb. test vs an 8wt. with 6 lb. test, then I’d say the 8 wt would do the better job because it would be able to constantly use more of the tippets capacity than the 6wt. By changing the rod angle, you can change the amount of pressure on the fish. if you keep your rod tip up and the butt of the rod between 45 and 60 degrees, you get a maximum amount of shock absorption and comparatively little pressure on the fish. However, if you wind or strip in line until your rod angle is more like 30 degrees, anchor the line against the handle or reel, and then pull up and off to the side, you exert easily two to three times as much pressure.  You are takin the tip of the rod out of the fight by doing this and using the butt of the rod to supply the lifting power. This is a good technique to use once you’ve got a fish beaten.  It can break you off quickly if the fish is too fresh. Try this with a friend sometime.  One hold the rod and the other hold the end of the line.  Pull with both methods.  The one bending the rod will think he is exerting huge amounts of pressure when he is not.  As soon as the rod tip drops and then pulls, the difference is obvious.                    Hope this helps,                            Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

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You might want to contact the real experts at a place called G. Loomis.   They have the tech. knowledge to give you the facts. try http://www.gloomis.com  Regards,  Capt. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, becauseI have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutly no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statment on his part true? Andrew

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastised for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told that I should be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, because have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutely no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statement on his part true? Andrew

I agree with you with your specific example, I think you can put more pressure on a fish with a 6 wgt using an 8 lb tippet than you could with an 8 wgt using a 4 lb tippet.  However, with a 6 or 8 weight rod both using for example an eight pound tippet, you could put more pressure on a fish with an 8 weight as a rule.  Rod lengthn also figures in on this.  You can put more pressure on a fish with a longer rod in the same line class.  Action also plays into this.  A fast rod can provide more pressure, but a softer rod is more forgiving and break offs are less likely.  Obviously an angler’s skill is another factor. I think you use what works well for you just as long as the fish you catch (assuming you are releasing them) are landed in a short enough time that the fish will survive releasing.  If you follow the reasoning of the guy in the shop, a 10 weight would be better, a 12 better still.  Bet he doesn’t fish a 12. Willi

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Question:

I have sold my tools and materials, now I am offering my books and magazines.  $35.00 + shipping takes all. "Expert Fly-Tying,"  Paul Fling & Donald Puturbaugh, 1986 "Favorite Flies and Their Histories," Mary Orvis Marbury, 1892 (1995 reprint) "Fly-Tyer Pattern Bible," 1985 "Creative Fly-Tying & Fly Fishing," Rex Gerlach, 1974 "Practical Flies & Their Construction," Lacey Gee & Erwin Sias, 1966 My homemade note book with appx. 675 patterns, most with color pictures "Fly Tyer"  Aug ‘84, Nov ‘84, Spring ‘85, Fall ‘85 "American Fly Tyer:"  Spring ‘86-Winter ‘87, most issues "American Angler & Fly Tyer"  Spring ‘88-Fall ‘90, most issues "American Angler"  jan’91-June ‘91 If interested, email Jim at the above email address

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Thanks to all of you who responded.  I sold the books to the first e-mail response I received. Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have sold my tools and materials, now I am offering my books and magazines.  $35.00 + shipping takes all.

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Question:

  You mean like shaking up a warm budweiser, squirting it all over your   fishing companion and slamming it John Belushi style all the while mumbling   something about "didja see da size dat summabitch ?"….   —   TimW   Halfordian Golfer

I’m sorry that I don’t quite get it.  Does the mumbling occur before or after smashing the can to your forehead? cheers,         -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html email: replace the "this_address_is_wrong" with "tgades"

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You mean like shaking up a warm budweiser, squirting it all over your fishing companion and slamming it John Belushi style all the while mumbling something about "didja see da size dat summabitch ?"….

No, that is not what I mean. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 2. I fish many catch and release streams and NEVER see a dead fish. 3. Whenever I release a fish after allowing it to regain its composure by gently holding it upstream and allowing it to get a flow of water through it’s gills, they always seem to take off on their own with little difficulty.  Is this lactic acid thing just some myth that some guide somewhere started to sound cool or knowledgeable?  I suspect so.  Show me the evidence. This is not new and wasn’t made up by some guide. Billfisherman have been talking about it for decades. There are times when some fisherman spend 1 minute reviving for each minute fighting to improve survival rates. Not much for a 5 minute tussle with a trout. How about after a couple of hours on a marlin?

The trick to survival of catch and release fish is to release them before they get exhausted. You need to play a bit and then bring them in and let them go. If you lose them horsing them in, then they just saved you the work of removing the hook. I try not to break off, try to get the fish in before it’s exhausted. They don’t always cooperate! Time spent reviving is well worth the fish being saved! DON’T PULL THE FISH BACKWARDS THROUGH THE WATER. . . SUFFOCATES THEM!!! Annie Oakley’s Casting & Blasting Page, shooting and fly fishing links: http://members.tripod.com/~AnnieOakley/CastAndBlast.html SORRRY SPAMMERS!!! Annie’s address is blocked. It’s really simple. . . Or linked from her site!

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Question:

Anybody out there know genus-species for the Alder Fly? Email or post is fine Bill S.

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Anybody out there know genus-species for the Alder Fly? Email or post is fine Bill S.

Bill, Family is Sialidae and only the single genus, Sialis, occurs in North America.  Not being an entomologist I could be mistaken but I am fairly certain of my resource.  Hope this helps. James Ehlers Underhill, Vermont Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service Vermont Fly Fishing, Hunting, River and Woodland Outings http://pobox.com/~uncle

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody out there know genus-species for the Alder Fly? Email or post is fine Bill S. Bill, it’s funny you mentioned it, and I have heard it before,and can’t remember, but it then occured to me that my grandfather gave me a book written in the 50’s by the Sportman’s cigarettes company,it’s

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James Ehlers is correct. Alderflies belong to the family Sialidae, and there is a single genus, Sialis. There are about 20 or so species. They are in the order Megaloptera, at least that is where most entomologists place them, although I sometimes see Megaloptera listed as a suborder of Neuroptera. — Tim Lysyk http://www.telusplanet.net/public/cnangler/html

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Question:

Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this?  Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks. — Gerald Strom University of Illinois at Chicago

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Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this?  Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks. —

cut it off…put the dry on you hatband of drying patch… if this makes your tippet too short then cut this off and replace it too… TimW

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Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this?  Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks.

Hi Gerald First off there is no such thing as a dumb question.  That’s what this group is all about — questions and answers. When you want to change a fly just cut one off and tie on another.  There are special nippers made for this purpose OR if you don’t have one a small finger nail clipper will work just fine.  When I first started I used a finger nail clipper on a loop of old fly line around my neck for several years. There are several different knots used to tie on flies.  You can go to the library and find a book on fly fishing or check at your local fly shop.  There is a neat little book (about 3"x5") on knots available today.  I personally like the Uni Knot but there are other good knots as well.  Many of the fly line manufacturers include knot tying instructions with there fly line.  Also I have an old aluminum Perine fly box that has the knot tying instruction on the front of the box. Keep asking the questions and I’m sure you’ll find someone more experienced on this group who will help. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT(96 catalog)

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Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this?  Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks. —

I must admit that I have never thought about it till now.  basicly i cut (bite) the old one off,  I guess that this results in the tippet ( end of the leader) becomming shorter and shorter.   In the UK you can get in small "snap" links from Mustard which are designed for easy fly changing Julian

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Just cut fly off as close to hook as as possible then tie on new fly.Best to have someone show you improved clinch knot or uni knot

best of luck -jkralic

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Heck, if you haven’t caught the darn thing in a tree behind you, you can’t be that dumb… Just snip it off and buy lots of tippet.

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writes: Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this? Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks.

No need to apologize for your question.  the only stupid question is the one that doesn’t get asked.  Enjoyed the pun by the way ;^ When you want to change flies, you simply cut off the first one and tie on another. Eventually this will shorten your tippet (if you don’t lose it to a fly eating tree or bush first, or cast some wind knots into it), but then you cut that off and tie on a new piece.  Orvis has a waterproof knot booklet for about $5 that has the appropriate knots listed and how to tie them. Personally I use the Orvis knot to tie on most trout flies and a Trilene knot to tie on any fly large enough to pass the tippet through the eye twice (large streamers, bass flies, steelheadsalmon flies, saltwater flies).  On flies that I want to use a lot of action on I will often use a Duncan’s loop.                            Hope this helps,                                      Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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In follow up to one beginners question to another, does it matter what size leader you use as long as the tippet is a smaller size? Do I need to change leaders if I’m going to the trout stream after I’ve been fishing for bluegill in a pond, or just the tippet? Thanks. D. Lowe

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In follow up to one beginners question to another, does it matter what size leader you use as long as the tippet is a smaller size? Do I need to change leaders if I’m going to the trout stream after I’ve been fishing for bluegill in a pond, or just the tippet? Thanks. D. Lowe

I myself work on the premise that my tippet should be either the same or one size smaller than the tip section of my leader. For determining the end "tippet" size a good general rule is too devide your hook size by three. Example: Size 12 adams – use a 4x tippet. Reel simple

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In follow up to one beginners question to another, does it matter what size leader you use as long as the tippet is a smaller size? Do I need to change leaders if I’m going to the trout stream after I’ve been fishing for bluegill in a pond, or just the tippet? Thanks. D. Lowe I myself work on the premise that my tippet should be either the same or one size smaller than the tip section of my leader. For determining the end "tippet" size a good general rule is too devide your hook size by three. Example: Size 12 adams – use a 4x tippet. Reel simple

One approach is to use a 3X leader and then step down to the desired tippet size  using 6 – 8 inch long transition sections.  For example, if you want to use a 6X tippet, you would use 8 inches of 4X and 8 inches of 5 X between the leader and tippet section. This way you only carry one size leader. Regards, Chuck

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One approach is to use a 3X leader and then step down to the desired tippet size  using 6 – 8 inch long transition sections.  For example, if you want to use a 6X tippet, you would use 8 inches of 4X and 8 inches of 5 X between the leader and tippet section. This way you only carry one size leader. Regards, Chuck

Not a bad idea Chuck except for me personally I find it very difficult to  tie on those little pieces of tippet material while there is a feeding frenzy going on. For some reason my fingers and brain seem to disconnect while whatching trout splashing and jumping all around me, not to mention the problem of cold fingers or low light. I generally carry a range of leaders sizes 3x-6x pretied with 3 feet of tippet section done while at home whatching a fishing show or something. This allows me more time to fish and less aggravation on the water. I only tie on the water if I have to. Tight lines Russ

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(DLowe21757) writes: In follow up to one beginners question to another, does it matter what size leader you use as long as the tippet is a smaller size? Do I need to change leaders if I’m going to the trout stream after I’ve been fishing for bluegill in a pond, or just the tippet? Thanks. D. Lowe

Boy this can be a can of worms! Commercial knotless tapered leaders consist of three parts – butt section (which is heavy and level or very slightly tapered), the tapering section (which rapidly tapers down to your tippet size), and the tippet section (which is also level and the part that you tie onto the fly).  So your leader already has a tippet on it.  You can replace the tippet as needed as you break it off or cut it down from changing flies.  Much less expensive to tie on a new tippet section than to change an entire leader every time you mess up the tippet.  You can also change how your leader performs by cutting back or adding tippet.  If you add tippet you will get more slack out near the fly, if you cut back tippet you will get more power delivered to the fly resulting is less slack and more ease in turning over large flies or regular flies in windy conditions.  You can play around with the butt section in the opposite manner to accomplish the same thing, but that means tying two knots instead of one.  And of course if you really want to get carried away you can vary both to fine tune the leader to your needs. A good approximate guide to which tippet size to use is to divide the size of your fly by 3 and use the resultant number for your tippet X number. For instance: size 18 fly divided by 3 = 6X tippet, size 12 divided by 3 = 4X, size 16 divided by 3 = 5X and a little left over.  In slow clear water with spooky trout you may have to go one X smaller, and in fast pocket water you may be able to go one X larger.  Listen to what the fish say, they’ll tell you. Length of leader is more a function of the water type than anything else. We use longer leaders for greater subtlety (less obtrusive than the fly line) and more suppleness.  Long leaders – 9 to 12 ft.- are most commonly needed in slow clear water with spooky trout.  That is because the trout gets a long time to inspect your fly in slow water and are typically more critical of drag.  Short leaders – 6 to 7 1/2 ft. – are used in faster water for better control with typically larger flies in fast water conditions.  In fast water the trout gets only a short time to see your fly before he takes it or rejects it and there is not usually as much food available (harsher conditions) so he tends to be more opportunistic than in the slower water conditions.  Since we don’t need the added subtlety and suppleness of the longer leader in faster conditions we don’t use it. Always best to use the shortest heaviest leader you can get away with. Again listen to the trout.   If the trout aren’t taking your fly you probably need to go longer and finer.  Sometimes the shortest stoutest leader that will work is a 12 ft. 6X or 7X leader.                      Hope this helps,                              Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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Question:

I have been offerd a trip to the area of Dillion Co. in July. I would love to take advantage of this offer. Can anyone tell me what the fishing would be like there. Is a guide a must? are there areas that are easy to get to with out a guide? still water vs. river/stream? We have never visited the state before so we have no idea where we are heading.

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Dear visitor: July in Summit county offers a variety of flyfishing and regular fishing opportunities.  The obvious and most close is the Blue River which flows through Dillon.  There are also numerous private streams and ponds that you can fish.  The best advice I can give you is to call up the fishing stores in Breckenridge or Dillon and tell them what kind of fisherman you are (Novice, etc…) and decide if you are willing to spend money to have a private guide take you on private water.  They run anywhere from 125$/Day to $300/Day depending on the Luxery factor.  With the amount of snow in Summit county this year, runoff will be longer and may not be good in July in the Blue River.  I might want to try Beaver ponds if  the water is not clear.

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Question:

  This past week on the Provo river the Baetis hatch has started. We’ve done quite well with some comparaduns.  Sometimes, though, the fish just seem to refuse them as well as any BWO or parachute.  The colors are an olive/grey mixture.  I was wondering what other patterns would be good in this situation.  We’ve landed some in the 18" range and would love to hear your suggestions and land some more.  The hatch goes from about 2:00 to 4:00 Curtis Fry

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:   This past week on the Provo river the Baetis hatch has started. : We’ve done quite well with some comparaduns.  Sometimes, though, the : fish just seem to refuse them as well as any BWO or parachute.  The : colors are an olive/grey mixture.  I was wondering what other patterns : would be good in this situation.  We’ve landed some in the 18" range : and would love to hear your suggestions and land some more.  The hatch : goes from about 2:00 to 4:00 : Curtis Fry Try a baetis emerger pattern.  Sometimes if the trout aren’t taking duns, they will be grabbing the emerging nymphs.  There are many ties.  The one I like is a standard nymph pattern, only with a section of ballooned out white or grey poly-yarn imitating the emerging wing where the wingcase would be and sparse hackle extending from the left and right sides of the thorax.  

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Try an olive wet fly…my favorite comes from Syl Nemes as follows: #18 hook–thread:olive 6/0 flymaster                rib:yellow thread 6/0                hackle: starling, 3 turns and get a bit of the                            fluffy stuff at the base of the starling feather. These took a couple of dozen fish last autumn on upper Pine Creek, PA whilst my fishing buddies stayed with drys and got skunked. Worked less spectacularly on Valley Creek,PA two weeks back, but still got a few fish. Both were streams with wild browns and/or brookies, so it should have been a fair test.  I have used this pattern for a year and a half and it seems to work consistently. Fish it like a dry or with a downstream reach cast. Good Luck!                                                               T Littleton

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