Question:

they tend to be much more     durable than the store-bought variety, and cost about 50 cents apiece.     Home-made leaders cost me about a dime apiece, if that. I can tell that you haven’t bought store-bought leaders in quite a while.     Willi

Response:

 I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders? Thanks, Eric p.s.  Thanks for the response on the tippet post.  A lot of good info there.

Response:

I personally don’t really have a preference either way. I do find in some rivers where algae is a problem the need to constantly clear the knots on the leader of the weed or algae to be a pain, but  then I have to do that with the tippet knot anyway. In this day and age of convenience I find the range of tapered leaders now offered covers all of the fishing situations I do and it’s simple. I have a heavy piece of butt section needle knotted to the fly line, I attach a commercial leader to that and a tippet to the end of it and go fishing. Tying your own leaders can be fun, but I find the fun soon wears off. Umpqua have a phenomenal range of different leaders. check out their web site if you are interested, even if you don’t purchase your leaders their various different designs will give you some ideas for your own. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders? Thanks, Eric p.s.  Thanks for the response on the tippet post.  A lot of good info there.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders?

I almost always make my own because I think it’s easy and like you said I can use whatever material I want.  I can whip up a leader or fix one in a couple minutes out on the stream.  I don’t think there’s as much difference between some of these leader formulas as the creators imply, but still it’s nice to know you can quickly make changes to your leader once you know the basics of how they work and how to tie the knots.

Response:

In this day and age of convenience I find the range of tapered leaders now offered covers all of the fishing situations I do and it’s simple. I have a heavy piece of butt section needle knotted to the fly line, I attach a commercial leader to that and a tippet to the end of it and go fishing. Tying your own leaders can be fun, but I find the fun soon wears off.

Sounds like you’re tying your own leaders the way it is.  Borger’s Uni-body leader is no more complicated than that.

Response:

[...] I don’t think there’s as much difference between some of these leader formulas as the creators imply…

        Agreed.  There are more variations in leader formulae than Heinz has pickles and ketchup.  :-)  I’ve been using the simple formula in Kreh’s and Sosin’s "Practical Fishing Knots", and for 90% of the fishing I do, it works about as well as anything.   but still it’s nice to know you can quickly make changes to your leader once you know the basics of how they work and how to tie the knots.

        I think that’s the beauty of tying your own.  You can tweak your leader to the conditions and the characteristics of the fly you’re using and refine the presentation to what you need.  Sometimes this can really pay off.  Of course, other times, the leader configuration doesn’t matter a whit. Todd

Response:

Perhaps so, so but in reality, that is the correct way to use store bought leaders with the butt section bit being the only real optional part. Tippet should always be added pretty much. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In this day and age of convenience I find the range of tapered leaders now offered covers all of the fishing situations I do and it’s simple. I have a heavy piece of butt section needle knotted to the fly line, I attach a commercial leader to that and a tippet to the end of it and go fishing. Tying your own leaders can be fun, but I find the fun soon wears off. Sounds like you’re tying your own leaders the way it is.  Borger’s Uni-body leader is no more complicated than that.

Response:

I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader.

I prefer tying my own because a) it can get you back into rising fish faster, and b) the flexibility you mention above. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly.

I haven’t noticed any hinging with the double surgeon’s knot, and I think the presentation is comparable either way. I’m sure some strength is lost, as it is with any knot, but I haven’t lost any more fish with the hand-tied than with the store-bought. — TL, Tim

Response:

Slightly off topic, but what book are you reading? Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders? Thanks, Eric p.s.  Thanks for the response on the tippet post.  A lot of good info there.

Response:

Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders?

I find the disadvantages of knots in leaders too great for dry fly fishing (viz. bits of flimsy mono catching on the knots.) I use a tapered leader tapered to a heavier weight – say four pounds – then tie a tippet of a lighter weight – say three pounds – maybe two or three feet. And then there’s a couple of feet of heavy mono attached to the line, with a loop in it. Keep cutting the tippet down till there’s no more, then add another. L

Response:

The book is titled "Drag-Free Drift Leader Design and Presentation Techniques for Fly Fishing" by Joseph A. Kissane.  There’s an associated CD Rom that does leader calculations by Steven B. Schweitzer.  He’s cofounder of the Global Flyfisher website.  The book is actually pretty good.  The author is an engineer so it’s written in a technical writing style and is very detailed in parts.  Sometimes I feel like I’m reading a physics textbook. I’m an analyst by profession so I like to understand things. Sometimes I think it’s better not knowing whether my leader is hinging or not.  Like one guy posted on the Leaders & Tippet thread  that goes something like this: "I just tie it that way and it works.  Don’t know why." I think that’s all that counts. Eric

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Slightly off topic, but what book are you reading? Jim Ray I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders? Thanks, Eric p.s.  Thanks for the response on the tippet post.  A lot of good info there.

Response:

Hi Eric, I would say that today that about 90% of the fly fishers use knotless tapered leaders for trout. Why? Well, probably the same reason about 90% of the fly fishers buy flies? They don’t have the time or the skill. Actually, many anglers use knotless leaders for trout because they don’t want all those knots for stuff to catch on. Lots of very sophisticated fly fishers use tapered knotless leader, but they modify them a bit. Years ago we all tied our own leaders because the only ones you could buy were not too good. I still tie my own leaders for steelhead and salt water. I think everyone that wants to tie their own leaders, tie their own flies and build their own rods should do so because it is fun and can be very educational. After you tie your own knotted leaders and play with them to see how they work, you can use knotless tapered leaders and do some adjusting on them to get them to work just fine. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders? Thanks, Eric p.s.  Thanks for the response on the tippet post.  A lot of good info there.

Response:

Hi Eric, I would say that today that about 90% of the fly fishers use knotless tapered leaders for trout. Why? Well, probably the same reason about 90% of the fly fishers buy flies? They don’t have the time or the skill. Actually, many anglers use knotless leaders for trout because they don’t want all those knots for stuff to catch on…

I used knotless leaders for the first year or two that I fly fished, and they worked well enough, but I think my own leaders work even better. Having stuff catch on the knots is a minor to nonexistent "problem," or at least it is in the places I normally fish. When it does happen, removing the moss or whatever is pretty quick and simple. It only takes a few minutes to make a leader from scratch, and these leaders have, IMO, several important advantages. I can give it exactly the taper I want, I can use different kinds of monofilament in different parts of the leader (stiffer at the butt, softer at the tippet, for instance), and when rebuilding the leader at streamside, I know exactly where I am in the taper by following the knots. The toughest part is learning to tie a good blood knot, and it only takes a few leaders to get the hang of that. I tie my own flies for similar reasons. I can use exactly which materials I want, and modify or create patterns as I see fit,  they tend to be much more durable than the store-bought variety, and cost about 50 cents apiece. Home-made leaders cost me about a dime apiece, if that. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

Hi Eric, I would say that today that about 90% of the fly fishers use knotless tapered leaders for trout. Why? Well, probably the same reason about 90% of the fly fishers buy flies? They don’t have the time or the skill.

What a "Right On" remark to make.  Great! Actually, many anglers use knotless leaders for trout because they don’t want all those knots for stuff to catch on.

Not, IMHO, anything but a cop out reason.  Doesn’t hold water because it is "The Fly" which must be kept clean at all times.   After you tie your own knotted leaders and play with them to see how they work, you can use knotless tapered leaders and do some adjusting on them to get them to work just fine.

Bill?  I really think you’re a savvy kind of shop owner and the majority of your advice is super.  But I have to say this about tapered leaders.  From Brand to Brand, there is nothing as consistant in fly fishing than the consistant inconsistant tapers of tapered leaders. The ONLY WAY to be assured of a sharp turn over and absolute control for the SERIOUS fly fisherman is to tie their own, or better put, roll their own leaders.  It is rare that anything catches knots in hand tied leaders, not unless the water is full of dissideous moss and junk and even then, a tapered leader still  has a minimum of two or three knots involved. I truely dislike tapered leaders because they are heat melted from a single large diameter butt section and pulled to a longer taper, not unlike pulling warm bubble gum out of one’s mouth.  No two strings or pull are the same. Never! I take my fly fishing much too seriously not to tie my own.  It is an art form just like fly tying.  Why would anyone deny themselves of this pleasure when it comes to "The Ways of a Trout?"  I just can’t fathom the mind set that uses tapered leaders. George Gehrke "who always rolls his own" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Hi Bill, I haven’t tried tying my own leaders yet but would like to. The knots in the leader seem to be the biggest drawback.  When I went with guide on Henry’s Fork, he set up "our rig" with a set up he tied himself.  I wished I had paid closer attention to what he had done.  We had a full day of great fishing and even for us rookies we could make decent casts (albeit not very far casts).  I buy the pre-made leaders and tie a tippet on the end.  They work well enough but the presentation is poor about half the time.  I’ve tinkered with cutting off certain parts and adding tippet where I think it might work better.  This trial and error approach does not always produce great results. I don’t get out as often as I like so I like to make the best of it when I do. I mostly fish high mountain lakes and as you probably know conditions can change rather quickly. If the day starts out warm and sunny, the leader has some nice flex to it.  Have the sun go behind the clouds and the wind kick up the leader gets stiff and my tippet will wrap around it like a rope on a tether ball pole.   Of course, that’s when the fishing starts to get hot and I’m there with a mess on the end of my fly line. Thanks, Eric

Response:

Question:

What is it about color blindness that would impair one’s ability to see a fly on the water ?

It effects your ability to pick out certain colors on certain color backgrounds. For example, I have trouble seeing red objects on a green background, so a red fly on the water with trees reflected would be more difficult to see than the same fly on the water with blue sky reflected. — Charlie…

Response:

What is it about color blindness that would impair one’s ability to see a fly on the water ? It effects your ability to pick out certain colors on certain color backgrounds. For example, I have trouble seeing red objects on a green background, so a red fly on the water with trees reflected would be more difficult to see than the same fly on the water with blue sky reflected. — Charlie…

I’d think that the key to visibility under these conditions would be to use flies. leaders, indicators, etc. that have high contrast differences rather than colour differences.  Red and green have about the same reflectance so somebody with RG colour blindness would have trouble distinguishing a red item against a green background as both would appear to be a similar colour and there would be very little contrast between them. As far as seeing fish – I don’t think that is much of an issue – it becomes a matter of learning the water.  My home river is off colour for most of the season so trying to locate holding fish by sight is damn near impossible.  Unless they’re rising, I fish to likely spots rather than to fish I have seen. Even though I am not colour blind, I spent years as a black & white photographer and after a while, I could visualize a scene in black & white.  I would use a green or red filter if I wanted to emphasize greens and reds.  Take a picture of a red rose against green leaves without a filter and they appear the same grey tone in the photo – add a green filter and the leaves go pale and the rose goes almost black. The green filter allows the green wavelengths to pass through but blocks the reds.  I’m not suggesting that someone who has RG colour blindness wear green sunglasses, but we can take the principles of contrast in B&W photography and apply it to the problem. To help with contrast, Borger suggests using indicators that have a bright colour plus black.  The bright color shows up on dark water and the black shows up against bright water or a light bottom.  In some lighting conditions (e.g. backlighting), even someone with normal colour vision will not be able to see the colours and has to rely on contrast. HTH Peter

Response:

Bob- Post your question to sci.med.vision, and you’ll probably get more information than you’ll care to read. Without knowing anything about the method, I suggest you email the company and ask for a list of "PEER REVIEWED" publications describing the efficacy of their techniques.  If you email me the list you get, I’ll try to figure out if they are peer reviewed or not. If they can’t provide you with this list, hold on to your $700. Of course, if the product is all they say it is, they won’t be afraid to offer a money-back guarantee, would they?? Scott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, There are relatively new glasses being sold by an outfit called Colormax to supposedly help discriminate between reds and greens.  They are available in prescriptions.  Not sure re polarized availability. They are Very expensive;  about $ 700 per pair, I think. Have Absolutely NO idea if they work or not. I’ve been beating the bushes for about a year now, trying to get opinions on them. Opinions seem very varied.   Some have said they help, others not. Just posting this so you know they exist. —-Anyone else here tried them ??—- Bob — As a relative newbie to flyfishing in the mountain streams of Colorado, I’ve come to realize that my color blindness has proven to be quite a problem in locating fish, flies (wet and dry) and pretty much anything else in the water.  I’ve tried various types of polarized sunglasses but, short of a fluorescent strike indicator, I can’t see anything beyond the end of my flyline.  Any fish I’ve caught have been by sheer luck (although I’d never admit it in public). Has any one else out there had similar problems or know anyone else that has overcome this unfortunate disadvantage?  I’m not a big fan a strike indicators and I look like a pretty big goof tying one above a dry fly, but I’m out of options. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance, Jafo

Response:

FDA TALK PAPER Food and Drug Administration U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Public Health Service 5600 Fishers Lane Rockville, MD 20857 —- FDA Talk Papers are prepared by the Press Office to guide FDA personnel in responding with consistency and accuracy to questions from the public on subjects of current interest. Talk Papers are subject to change as more information becomes available. —- T99-58                                    Sharon Snider:    301-827-6242 December 21, 1999                         Broadcast Media:  301-827-3434                                           Consumer Media:   888-INFO-FDA COLORMAX LENSES The FDA has received a number of media inquiries about ColorMax eyeglass lenses, which are being promoted widely as a way to correct color blindness. Some of the claims in these promotions may be misleading. The following can be used to answer questions: ColorMax lenses, made by Color Vision Technologies, Inc., Tustin, Calif., were cleared for market by FDA in November. They are tinted prescription spectacle lenses intended as an optical aid for people with red-green color vision deficiencies. The lenses do not help wearers perceive or appreciate colors as people with normal color vision do, but merely add brightness/darkness differences to colors that are otherwise difficult or impossible to distinguish. ColorMax lenses are designed to improve discrimination of specific colors that look the same to people with regreen color deficiencies. However, discrimination of at least some other colors is actually impaired. ColorMax lenses are not effective for people who are totally color blind. Very few people are truly color blind, and these lenses will not help them to see colors. Most people with color vision problems have partial color vision deficiencies that make it difficult to distinguish between red and green or between yellow and blue. FDA marketing clearance for ColorMax Lenses is limited to red-green color deficiencies, and does not include yellow-blue deficiencies or total color blindness. http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/ANS00990.html — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bob- Post your question to sci.med.vision, and you’ll probably get more information than you’ll care to read. Without knowing anything about the method, I suggest you email the company and ask for a list of "PEER REVIEWED" publications describing the efficacy of their techniques.  If you email me the list you get, I’ll try to figure out if they are peer reviewed or not. If they can’t provide you with this list, hold on to your $700. Of course, if the product is all they say it is, they won’t be afraid to offer a money-back guarantee, would they?? Scott Hi, There are relatively new glasses being sold by an outfit called Colormax to supposedly help discriminate between reds and greens.  They are available in prescriptions.  Not sure re polarized availability. They are Very expensive;  about $ 700 per pair, I think. Have Absolutely NO idea if they work or not. I’ve been beating the bushes for about a year now, trying to get opinions on them. Opinions seem very varied.   Some have said they help, others not. Just posting this so you know they exist. —-Anyone else here tried them ??—- Bob — As a relative newbie to flyfishing in the mountain streams of Colorado, I’ve come to realize that my color blindness has proven to be quite a problem in locating fish, flies (wet and dry) and pretty much anything else in the water.  I’ve tried various types of polarized sunglasses but, short of a fluorescent strike indicator, I can’t see anything beyond the end of my flyline.  Any fish I’ve caught have been by sheer luck (although I’d never admit it in public). Has any one else out there had similar problems or know anyone else that has overcome this unfortunate disadvantage?  I’m not a big fan a strike indicators and I look like a pretty big goof tying one above a dry fly, but I’m out of options. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance, Jafo

Response:

As a relative newbie to flyfishing in the mountain streams of Colorado, I’ve come to realize that my color blindness has proven to be quite a problem in locating fish, flies (wet and dry) and pretty much anything else in the water.  I’ve tried various types of polarized sunglasses but, short of a fluorescent strike indicator, I can’t see anything beyond the end of my flyline.  Any fish I’ve caught have been by sheer luck (although I’d never admit it in public). Has any one else out there had similar problems or know anyone else that has overcome this unfortunate disadvantage?  I’m not a big fan a strike indicators and I look like a pretty big goof tying one above a dry fly, but I’m out of options. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance, Jafo

Response:

As a relative newbie … Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Sounds to me like you’re putting too much of the blame on being color blind. It takes practice to see small flies on the water, use parachute patterns when appropriate and keep at it. Good luck, — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Has any one else out there had similar problems or know anyone else that has overcome this unfortunate disadvantage?  I’m not a big fan a strike indicators and I look like a pretty big goof tying one above a dry fly, but I’m out of options. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance, Jafo

Open up the window, Jafo, and let me catch my breath!! (Momma told me not to come..) I, too, am afflicted with the recessive sex-linked form of red-green color blindness, and it drives me nuts.  I’m not much of a trout fisher, but I do a lot of flats fishing, primarily for bonefish.  I have a really hard time with the subtle shades of grey, tan, white, and green on the flats.  The good news is that, with experience, your ability to interpret what you see will improve. My opthalmologist suggested amber or yellow lenses-don’t know that they help. Disregard what the "normal guy" says-he hasn’t walked in your waders.   Interestingly enough, the Army Air Corp and the USAF recruited color blind guys to serve in reconnasance planes during WWII because once trained, they were not as likely to be fooled by camoflage coverings on enemy istallations. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I’m 50% color blind.  I have a real problem "Matching the trout hatch".  So I ask the fly shop guys in the destination area what the fish are hitting and have them detail the patterns with each color identified by number, vendor and any other details.  This is really important for my dubbing and colors which someone has to help me with. On the water, I go for white water where sight fishing isn’t that important as I have the same trouble seeing fish.  But I cast such a big shadow, I gotta get hid, stay low and take my time watching for action, insects, forage, birds, etc..  But, isn’t that what fishing is all about anyway? Just be patient and enjoy the experience.  It’ll come. Good luck. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a relative newbie to flyfishing in the mountain streams of Colorado, I’ve come to realize that my color blindness has proven to be quite a problem in locating fish, flies (wet and dry) and pretty much anything else in the water.  I’ve tried various types of polarized sunglasses but, short of a fluorescent strike indicator, I can’t see anything beyond the end of my flyline.  Any fish I’ve caught have been by sheer luck (although I’d never admit it in public). Has any one else out there had similar problems or know anyone else that has overcome this unfortunate disadvantage?  I’m not a big fan a strike indicators and I look like a pretty big goof tying one above a dry fly, but I’m out of options. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance, Jafo

Response:

Hi, There are relatively new glasses being sold by an outfit called Colormax to supposedly help discriminate between reds and greens.  They are available in prescriptions.  Not sure re polarized availability. They are Very expensive;  about $ 700 per pair, I think. Have Absolutely NO idea if they work or not. I’ve been beating the bushes for about a year now, trying to get opinions on them. Opinions seem very varied.   Some have said they help, others not. Just posting this so you know they exist. —-Anyone else here tried them ??—- Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a relative newbie to flyfishing in the mountain streams of Colorado, I’ve come to realize that my color blindness has proven to be quite a problem in locating fish, flies (wet and dry) and pretty much anything else in the water.  I’ve tried various types of polarized sunglasses but, short of a fluorescent strike indicator, I can’t see anything beyond the end of my flyline.  Any fish I’ve caught have been by sheer luck (although I’d never admit it in public). Has any one else out there had similar problems or know anyone else that has overcome this unfortunate disadvantage?  I’m not a big fan a strike indicators and I look like a pretty big goof tying one above a dry fly, but I’m out of options. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance, Jafo

Response:

Have you considered making your own leaders and using Stren Hi-Vis Gold line (or some other high visibility line) for some or all of the leader/tippet? Certainly there are plenty of folks out there who use this line and catch fish, even on the surface.  I know some non-color-blind folks who do this to eliminate the need for a strike indicator (they are serious nymphers).  You could at least buy a spool of 2-4lb test line try using it for tippet material.  You’d only be out a few bucks either way and if it works, you’d have a solution to your dilemma. Tom G with two red-green color-blind friends, neither of whom fly fish–now I know why

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a relative newbie to flyfishing in the mountain streams of Colorado, I’ve come to realize that my color blindness has proven to be quite a problem in locating fish, flies (wet and dry) and pretty much anything else in the water.  I’ve tried various types of polarized sunglasses but, short of a fluorescent strike indicator, I can’t see anything beyond the end of my flyline.  Any fish I’ve caught have been by sheer luck (although I’d never admit it in public). Has any one else out there had similar problems or know anyone else that has overcome this unfortunate disadvantage?  I’m not a big fan a strike indicators and I look like a pretty big goof tying one above a dry fly, but I’m out of options. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance, Jafo

Response:

… with two red-green color-blind friends, neither of whom fly fish–now I know why

Like another poster to this thread pointed out, red-green color blind people were recruited as aerial spotters, this would indicate to me that the color blindness doesn’t impair visual acuity. What is it about color blindness that would impair one’s ability to see a fly on the water ? Not doubting for one minute that it’s true, just wondering. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

… with two red-green color-blind friends, neither of whom fly fish–now I know why Like another poster to this thread pointed out, red-green color blind people were recruited as aerial spotters, this would indicate to me that the color blindness doesn’t impair visual acuity. What is it about color blindness that would impair one’s ability to see a fly on the water ? Not doubting for one minute that it’s true, just wondering.

I have a friend with RG colorblindness, and he is a pretty good flyfisherman.  The last time I fished with him, he caught a dozen trout between 12 and 20 inches during a caddis hatch on the Madison, to my one. Kevin

Response:

I have a friend with RG colorblindness, and he is a pretty good flyfisherman.  The last time I fished with him, he caught a dozen trout between 12 and 20 inches during a caddis hatch on the Madison, to my one.

If you were only catching 1 inch fish, you were probably using the wrong color fly.

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Question:

All, I found this experience to be fascinating. While fishing the Manistee river in western Michigan, Dad & I casually donned our gear and schlepped the few hundred feet from the car to a stairs leading down to the river. Upon landing we began sizing up the water and realized that we were probably in the wrong place, as the water was very featureless and deepened quickly from the banks that we found ourselves on.  Well, as we were feeling a bit lazy, we decided to give it a try anyway.  Walking upstream a few yards, I happened upon a little gravel bed that jutted into the river allowing me a few extra feet to wade so I walked out and started pondering what to fish.  Tried a few things, deep, shallow, etc with no luck.  Felt kinda like fishing a lake as there were no feature to speak of except (of course) the little gravel bed I was standing on (who was it that once said…"you can always tell the inexperienced fisherman because he is wading where he should be fishing and fishing where he should be wading?)  After about an hour of flailing about I happened to gaze down into the water and was shocked to see at least 5, yes five very large brown trout  feeding right next to my feet.  AHA! finally a challenge.  So I carefully proceded to fish every last fly in my box in every conceivable presentation style past these fish only to watch them move out of the way as my fly du seconde floated by.  After a while, I simply gave up and watched them feed, and began learning…. Russell

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Russell,    You were probably dislodging insects with your feet and the fish were taking advantage of it.  This is not an uncommon occurrence in heavily fished waters where the fish get used to the fisherman. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found this experience to be fascinating. <snip I happened to gaze down into the water and was shocked to see at least 5, yes five very large brown trout  feeding right next to my feet <snip Russell

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Russell,    You were probably dislodging insects with your feet and the fish were taking advantage of it.  This is not an uncommon occurrence in heavily fished waters where the fish get used to the fisherman. Ernie I found this experience to be fascinating. <snip I happened to gaze down into the water and was shocked to see at least 5, yes five very large brown trout  feeding right next to my feet <snip Russell

Ernie, You are probably right, however they seemed to also be feeding in front of me in the typical dodge and slide pattern.  It was awesome to watch. Russell

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Question:

I am wondering what type of experiences people have had fishing smallmouth in the Quetico in early September.  We have a group who has gone on several spring trips thinking about a fall trip.  Several of us are fly fishermen, so in particular, I’m wondering if the fish use shallow areas this time of year or if they begin to go deep. Thanks Peter Jonas Iron Mountain, MI

Response:

I am wondering what type of experiences people have had fishing smallmouth in the Quetico in early September.  We have a group who has gone on several spring trips thinking about a fall trip.  Several of us are fly fishermen, so in particular, I’m wondering if the fish use shallow areas this time of year or if they begin to go deep.

        They are still deep in early Sept. Don’t forget they don’t care about the air temp., they care about the water temp. And by the end of Aug. the water is as warm there as it gets. Mornings and evenings might still be okay though. But otherwise think late Sept., early Oct. tgb

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     If a flyfisherman ( who is a good sportsman ) , and a spin fisherman ( who is a good sportsman ) both released a trout under the same conditions . Which trout would have a better chance of surviving ? I say it would be the one released by the spin fisherman , because the fly fisherman would probably be using lighter leader , and would have to fight the fish longer and harder . Al Strucke This is possible though there is evidence the reverse is true: mortality is higher if the fish are forced to struggle violently without respite. Consider an analogy; you ask two people to a mile. One is asked to do it in one run as fast as they can go – the other must also run fast but can slow their pace or rest for a short period every quarter of a mile. Which runner has the greater probability of dying from the run? A simlar siutation was found with chinook slamon where high mortality was found where the fish were caught on commercial trolling tackle (no pun intended) – the fish struggled violently for a brief period before being tagged and released. Mortality approached 50%. Fish caught using conventional sport tackle have proven to have much lower mortality. It was surmized that the cause was the intense exertion of the commercial caught fish caused high levels of lactic acid and higher mortality while the sport caught fish a lower level of lactic acid in the blood. I also wonder why it has to be assumed flyfishers will use lighter leaders etc. They shouldn’t. Ralph H

The issue about lactic acid is muddy.  I think it was a fellow named Black in 1955 who was among the first to report that increases in blood lactates were observed after playing fish to exhaustion.  Some other fish researchers (e.g., Wydoski in "Relation of Hooking Mortality and Subleathal hooking Stress to Quality Fishery Management" noted the same increases in blood lactates, but it is not clear that these contribute to increased mortality. It is clear that these lactates result in increased blood acidosis and this contributes to an imbalance of body fluids that under some conditions may contribute to mortality.  Wood, Turner, and Graham (1983) "Why do fish die after severe exercise" (in J. Fish Biology 22) conducted experiments with — I think it was cutthroat trout — and observed increased acidosis after severe exercise, but they concluded that  this was an "unlikely" cause of mortality.  They suggest that other metabolic processes may be the cause of death, but these remain to be discovered.  Conditions such as water temperature are also significant factors as are species differences.  The work done on trout does not necessarily apply to bass or vice versa since different species definitely show different vulnerabilities to mortality. Anyway, without getting lost in the details, it seems the important point is: why fish die is not as simple to explain as we would like it to be and we all have lots of myths and lore about it that may or may not be supported by fish science, which itself has lots of contradictory research about any one topic. JR

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Greetings: I am one of a rare breed that avidly fishes flies and spinners. In my opinion, which, by the way, is generally wrong: More than anything, depends on how the fish was hooked, which depends on how the lure was fished. A spinning rig tends to keep the line tight, and the hooks, as a result, are in the outer mouth. Same with a fly rig, if it is being fished properly. However, I see a lot of fly fishermen using wet flies with no strike indicator. Hence, the fish will swallow the fly. I don’t know if it’s a penis thing, or what, that keeps seemingly reasonable people from using a strike indicator. I use a yarn indicator, and hook fish I could never detect by watching the line alone. Live bait fisherman who don’t plan on keeping their catch should be shot at sunrise. Same for those who do plan on keeping their catch, but for a different reason. No, wait, that would be 2 reasons. 1) Drowning innocent bait, 2) Not releasing their catch. Needless to say (which is why I’m saying it), if you want to eat fish, go to the local grocery and buy it, instead of eating a wild treasure. Unless you’re camping in the wild. Man, I am in way over my head, which is a really bad thing if you are wading. I’m stopping now. MDC "I plan to live forever… so far, so good."

    If a flyfisherman ( who is a good sportsman ) , and a spin fisherman ( who is a good sportsman ) both released a trout under the same conditions . Which trout would have a better chance of surviving ? I say it would be the one released by the spin fisherman , because the fly fisherman would probably be using lighter leader , and would have to fight the fish longer and harder . Al Strucke

Response:

More than anything, depends on how the fish was hooked,

The most important variable in the mortality rate of C&R fish is water temp. The warmer the water, the more likely the fish goes belly up after being caught and released. Of course, the original question said assume all variables the same except fly or lure. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

(snipped) <<Man, I am in way over my head, which is a really bad thing if you are wading. I’m stopping now. Oh, Lordy, Lordy, Lordy.  I am roasting my marshmallows from here, the flames are so big.  Stand by, MDC.  I’ll give you a hint ——- asbestos! Dave LaCourse

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To original Poster If you spin fish and you really like fishing, you will LOVE fly fishing. You will catch more fish, make more money, be more attractive to women and your car will always start. Dave Snedeker

Dave, sound like  you’ve been playing country- western records backwards again. Big Al

Response:

If you want to pluck the low-lying fruit of flaming self-deprecating humor, be my guest. Yawn… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (snipped) <<Man, I am in way over my head, which is a really bad thing if you are wading. I’m stopping now. Oh, Lordy, Lordy, Lordy.  I am roasting my marshmallows from here, the flames are so big.  Stand by, MDC.  I’ll give you a hint ——- asbestos! Dave LaCourse

Response:

If you spin fish and you really like fishing, you will LOVE fly fishing. You will catch more fish, make more money, be more attractive to women and your car will always start. Dave Snedeker

It’s true, now that I fly fish, my car always starts. m&m – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

To original Poster A person could argue this forever. Best answer? Try both yourself. See what you learn. I spin fished in the ’50s. The trebles tear the shit out of trout, mostly kill them. People spin fish because its easy and mindless. When its bitter cold its hard to argue against it. But the fact is that if a monkey could be taught to cast the dam thing he’d catch about as much as a human spin fisher. No offence ment, but its a proven fact thats been surpressed by the government since 1949. Spinning is the more effective technique if you need to throw a baitfish imitation way the hell out in the surf. Thats about it. Spinning is inferior to the fly rod for delivering anything other than a baitfish initation or a gob or worms or a dead chunk of something, at long distances. Problem is that fish eat a lot more than baitfish. If you spin fish and you really like fishing, you will LOVE fly fishing. You will catch more fish, make more money, be more attractive to women and your car will always start. Dave Snedeker

Response:

    If a flyfisherman ( who is a good sportsman ) , and a spin fisherman ( who is a good sportsman ) both released a trout under the same conditions . Which trout would have a better chance of surviving ? I say it would be the one released by the spin fisherman , because the fly fisherman would probably be using lighter leader , and would have to fight the fish longer and harder . Al Strucke

Probably true if it weren’t that spin fishermen use treble hooks.                                                                John Popp

Response:

    If a flyfisherman ( who is a good sportsman ) , and a spin fisherman ( who is a good sportsman ) both released a trout under the same conditions . Which trout would have a better chance of surviving ? I say it would be the one released by the spin fisherman , because the fly fisherman would probably be using lighter leader , and would have to fight the fish longer and harder . Al Strucke

This is possible though there is evidence the reverse is true: mortality is higher if the fish are forced to struggle violently without respite. Consider an analogy; you ask two people to a mile. One is asked to do it in one run as fast as they can go – the other must also run fast but can slow their pace or rest for a short period every quarter of a mile. Which runner has the greater probability of dying from the run? A simlar siutation was found with chinook slamon where high mortality was found where the fish were caught on commercial trolling tackle (no pun intended) – the fish struggled violently for a brief period before being tagged and released. Mortality approached 50%. Fish caught using conventional sport tackle have proven to have much lower mortality. It was surmized that the cause was the intense exertion of the commercial caught fish caused high levels of lactic acid and higher mortality while the sport caught fish a lower level of lactic acid in the blood. I also wonder why it has to be assumed flyfishers will use lighter leaders etc. They shouldn’t. Ralph H

Response:

<< If a flyfisherman ( who is a good sportsman ) , and a spin fisherman ( who is a good sportsman ) both released a trout under the same conditions . Which trout would have a better chance of surviving ? I say it would be the one released by the spin fisherman , because the fly fisherman would probably be using lighter leader , and would have to fight the fish longer and harder . Al Strucke Is this a troll?  Maybe not.  Lee Wulff says a minute/pound.  There is no reason the fly fisherman should take *that* much longer than the spin fisherman.  You neglect to say what kind of "lure" the spin guy is using.  If it’s bait of any kind, it could be a deep-down-the-gullet hook-up, in which case the fish probably won’t live.  If it is a treble hook  and more than one of the hooks sets up, there could be more damage (prepare for incoming flames!).  I’ll go with the fly rod and a fly doing the less damage. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Maybe you can clarify a couple of points before an informed answer can be given.  Hook size (the larger the hook the greater the potential problems for the fish).  Hook type (treble hooks under some conditions seem to cause more problems than non-treble hooks, although some studies show this is not always the case), barbed or barbless (again, some studies show barbed hooks have no more mortality than barbless, but other studies show the reverse), and place of hooking (deeper hooks cause more problems of after-release mortality).  Also, although there is some data to indicate that playing fish longer contributes to increased mortality, there is other work that does not support the assumption that fighting fish longer causes more mortality. There are data to show that keeping fish out of the water longer than 30 seconds adds to the stress of fighting and does contribute to increased mortality.  I don’t think it is as simple as gear type.

    If a flyfisherman ( who is a good sportsman ) , and a spin fisherman ( who is a good sportsman ) both released a trout under the same conditions . Which trout would have a better chance of surviving ? I say it would be the one released by the spin fisherman , because the fly fisherman would probably be using lighter leader , and would have to fight the fish longer and harder . Al Strucke

Response:

ff tend to use small barbless hooks, size 14, 16, 18, 22, 24, most fish are hooked in the jaw. Deep hooking with large hooks (often treble hoods) can damage internal organs as can rough handling. A large trout yanked out of the water can suffer damage due to lack of support from the water. Using proper catch and release methods a tired fish can be revived. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     If a flyfisherman ( who is a good sportsman ) , and a spin fisherman ( who is a good sportsman ) both released a trout under the same conditions . Which trout would have a better chance of surviving ? I say it would be the one released by the spin fisherman , because the fly fisherman would probably be using lighter leader , and would have to fight the fish longer and harder . Al Strucke

Response:

    If a flyfisherman ( who is a good sportsman ) , and a spin fisherman ( who is a good sportsman ) both released a trout under the same conditions . Which trout would have a better chance of surviving ? I say it would be the one released by the spin fisherman , because the fly fisherman would probably be using lighter leader , and would have to fight the fish longer and harder . Al Strucke

Response:

Question:

I am going to buy a new 20 ft pontoon.  The manufacturer sells it with either 25 or 40 hp motors.  I have already decided to opt for the 40 but don’t know which brand to get.  They sell Force, Mariner, or Honda.  I understand that the quality of the Honda is excellent but have no experience with that brand.  Any comments would be appreciated.  Also, any comments about "add-ons"–I’m going to use the  boat for cruising as well as fishing. Bill

Hi Bill, I am looking for a 30 to 40 HP myself. I think that I might get a Honda 4 cycle. They are more money, heavier, but are quieter and get better gas milage. My next choice would be a Yamaha 2 cycle. What do others think? Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

Go for the Honda.  Much better engine from reliability and maintenance point of view.  If the Honda is too much, then go with the Mariner.  Stay away from the Force.  It is a stripped down version made solely for the low end price market, which means it is also a low end motor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going to buy a new 20 ft pontoon.  The manufacturer sells it with either 25 or 40 hp motors.  I have already decided to opt for the 40 but don’t know which brand to get.  They sell Force, Mariner, or Honda.  I understand that the quality of the Honda is excellent but have no experience with that brand.  Any comments would be appreciated.  Also, any comments about "add-ons"–I’m going to use the  boat for cruising as well as fishing. Bill

Response:

Get the Mariner. It is more dependable and has a better garintee. I baught a Mariner 3 years ago. I had a small problem with the coil and they gave me a brand new motor no questions asked.

Response:

:I am going to buy a new 20 ft pontoon.  The manufacturer sells it with :either 25 or 40 hp motors.  I have already decided to opt for the 40 but :don’t know which brand to get.  They sell Force, Mariner, or Honda.  I :understand that the quality of the Honda is excellent but have no :experience with that brand.  Any comments would be appreciated.  Also, Hey Bill, I’m new to this group and your post caught my attention. I just got back from Florida where i rented a 20 foot pontoon with a 30 horse. It was pushing to get 15 to 18 mph ! I rented the same size boat last year with a 60 i believe and i was passing runabouts that were on plane !  If you ever need to  cover some real distance you might opt for bigger motor. If your just out scooting around small lake the smaller one will do but dont expect to get anywhere fast with that 25 Kevin

Response:

I am going to buy a new 20 ft pontoon.  The manufacturer sells it with either 25 or 40 hp motors.  I have already decided to opt for the 40 but don’t know which brand to get.  They sell Force, Mariner, or Honda.  I understand that the quality of the Honda is excellent but have no experience with that brand.  Any comments would be appreciated.  Also, any comments about "add-ons"–I’m going to use the  boat for cruising as well as fishing. Bill

Response:

Question:

: Oh, and you might wish to reconsider that open invitation for anyone to : join you fishing. I’m over in Denver and it takes very little prompting : for me to drive to your side of the divide. You wouldn’t want to wake up : at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on : your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew. Especially one over 6 feet tall.

And sometimes that’s not enough. Steve

Response:

You wouldn’t want to wake up at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew. Steve

Well, yes, he would. Mitch

Response:

join you fishing. I’m over in Denver and it takes very little prompting for me to drive to your side of the divide. You wouldn’t want to wake up at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew.

Bullshit.  It’s why I keep both my waders and my beer near the back door. TimW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – T-Bone, When you’re under sustained attack it can be easy to let it get you down eventually. Don’t forget that taking any stand outside of the crowd (herd) makes you a target, particularly for the lowest common denominator of which there are the greatest number. These are also the ones that seldom have anything to add other than a "me too" or to attack someone without any positive input. Thus, you have to just write off the clowns that have nothing more to say other than to let vituperative spittle dribble onto their keyboards. Many of those posts remind me of a Dilbert comic where Dilbert and Wally are having a flamewar via the net between adjacent work cubicles. Dilbert is flexing his finger muscles and says "Come on flameboy, just try me" (quote may not be exact). The point being that the net lets those that are afraid to voice an independent opinion or that consider adding a five letter word to a string of 4-letterers to be intellectual discourse to have input without fear of retaliation. You have to just let it be water off a CDC. The net is the electronic Hyde Park. Everyone has a voice (if you have a computer, the electronic soapbox, of course). Hell, even Powlesland says something interesting every 20 or 30 posts or so (statistics not verified). Those that try to shout down other voices they don’t like should not be given your full consideration. Just ignore them. It’s just white noise in the background. Jon

Sounds like its T-bone affirmation time. T-bone, your good enough, your smart enough, and gosh darnit, (many) people (on this ng) like you.  Hang in there, baby.  Just go eat a few little wild brookies.  Always makes me feel better. Brett INFORMED and ENLIGHTEND C&R

Response:

While I agree with everything you said re: T-Bone, I disagree strongly with your statement that fly fishing is a pastime not a sport. The Webster’s Dictionary has as one definition of sport, "an activity pursued for pleasure involving the hunting, taking or killing of wild animals, game or fish."

That’s a definition that will get us in trouble, eventually.  I think it’s important to differentiate between blood sports (even if it’s C&R) and the games people play for fun.  This "sport" also requires a measure of responsibility toward nature, which other sports do not.  The anti-everything crowd has a hey-day with any activity that even occasionally kills something in the name of sport.  We need another label… — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University       Department of History   "Eastward I go by force, but Westward I go free!"  -H. D. Thoreau

Response:

T-Bone, A. If I am ever in CO you can count on me to ruin your health for several days. We will     probably do some fishing also. B. I can remember several of your posts including saving your dog, topless float trips, promising     to post GIFs of you and your buds removing living whitefish heads with your teeth and the ever     popular C&R vs C&K without resorting to any ’save’ files. C. I may not always agree with your opions but I will defend your right etc etc D. Always remember what I think when someone treats me as you have been treated; "Some people     are above me and some BLOW ME !". E. I live by the following creed when dealing with these people; "Life is a question of mind and     matter, I don’t mind and they don’t matter". The only editor a man needs is honesty. As you were, carry on. — "The true Angler is content to fish alone" Brian Di Carlo

Response:

Hello thoughtful readers,

Well, here’s your first mistake Tim. You’re assuming that anyone with access to a keyboard can pound out something intelligent… I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here. <snip

Yes you have, and I for one appreciate it. As often as not, I’ve disagreed with you, but I’ve been a lot more pissed off at the people who would attack you rather join in a civilized discussion of what you’ve said. This _is_ a discussion group is it not? <snip   I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.  I try to ad variety and spice to what I feel would be a pretty droll ng sometimes

To all you bitchers an’ moaners out there- who would you have to bitch an’ moan about if were not for the inimitable Mr. T-Bone? I’ll tell ya- you’d be bitchin’ an’ moanin’ at the same Sage vs. Loomis vs. Orvis vs. whatever. And you wouldn’t be doin’ it nearly so well. As I’ve said, there’s plenty I’ve disagreed with in Tim’s posts, but I don’t see anyone around here posting funnier more thought provoking stuff. This would be one sorry ass place to hang out without him.    I have an open invitation to anyone who posts here to come to western colorado and fish with me. Next time I make a wrong turn on the Long Island Distressway you can expect me to come pounding on your door. We’ll go out an’ laugh at the fish as they go by… In short, I love the sport as I love life itself.

I believe you do, and that’s why you belong in this ng. But goddamn it stop calling this a sport. It ain’t. It’s a pastime. A sport implies competition and that it ain’t (IMNSHFO) Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.

Hey Tim, DON’T LET THE BASTARDS GETCHA DOWN!   These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. And never will… I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others. Is that too much to ask ? Nope. <snip At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me.

Screw ‘em… — Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle Ltd. http://fishdoc.com. "I’m the boss, so WHATEVER I say is OK."

Response:

Hang tough Tim. As the proverb says: "A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country." (Matthew 13:57) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations. Generally (Powlesland excepted) I never, ever attack individuals and I challenge anyone to finding an ad hominum post made by me in all the years of alt.fishing and roff.  I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.  I try to ad variety and spice to what I feel would be a pretty droll ng sometimes.  I offer patterns and help and have spent hours offline helping flyfishermen of all walks. I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts here to come to western colorado and fish with me. In short, I love the sport as I love life itself. Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others. Is that too much to ask ? TimW BTW – I am about to embark on several photographic journies in the new binaries group… 1) Tying sequences for Western Flies 2) real pictures of scarred old warriors from real C&R areas.  I think this a very worthwhile endeavor. At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me.

Response:

 While I agree with everything you said re: T-Bone, I disagree strongly with your statement that fly fishing is a pastime not a sport. The Webster’s Dictionary has as one definition of sport, "an activity pursued for pleasure involving the hunting, taking or killing of wild animals, game or fish." Paul Marriner

Response:

Tim, Way back before it became the rage, I too submitted a post that exposed some true idiocy in this ng. It was about IMHO how anything would be better than a FEDERAL Government being the overseer of wildlife and natual resources. I got the same hate mail, posts and name calling that you have received, only not to the extent you have been forced to endure. After my post, I saw several late (a few weeks later) replies to my original post become a thread that carried through to the election. I think your thread on C&R is having the same effect. There are positives and negatives to all issues, but we tend to forget the positive results. I hope such actions by irresponsible idiots do NOT shut you up. I have said it before and I say it again now: I may not agree with everything you say but I will read yur posts first and will defend to the death your right to post! The idiots? Ahhh… fuck em!

Response:

 While I agree with everything you said re: T-Bone, I disagree strongly with your statement that fly fishing is a pastime not a sport. The Webster’s Dictionary has as one definition of sport, "an activity pursued for pleasure involving the hunting, taking or killing of wild animals, game or fish." Paul Marriner

OK Paul- You and Tim and Webster’s can call it any damn thing you want, I’ll call it fishing. You don’t think I could say all that stuff about Tim without a little jab somewhere;-) ?? Anyway, it’s whatever YOU wanna make it-that’s the ONLY thing that’s important. Best Regards, Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle Ltd. http://fishdoc.com. "I’m the boss, so WHATEVER I say is OK."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations. Generally (Powlesland excepted) I never, ever attack individuals and I challenge anyone to finding an ad hominum post made by me in all the years of alt.fishing and roff.  I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.  I try to ad variety and spice to what I feel would be a pretty droll ng sometimes.  I offer patterns and help and have spent hours offline helping flyfishermen of all walks. I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts here to come to western colorado and fish with me. In short, I love the sport as I love life itself. Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others. Is that too much to ask ? TimW

Look, Tim, for what it’s worth… Sometimes your opinions make me laugh, sometimes they piss me off. The same could be said of the opinions of my wife, my mother, my brother, George Gehrke and that kid down at the 7-11 with the pierced nose. Post whatever the hell you want, but don’t stop posting. This newsgroup would be a very boring place without your insights and opinions, regardless of who likes them and who doesn’t. Oh, and you might wish to reconsider that open invitation for anyone to join you fishing. I’m over in Denver and it takes very little prompting for me to drive to your side of the divide. You wouldn’t want to wake up at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew. Steve

Response:

Tim, Don’t let a bunch of wannabes get you down. Without you in the NG, this place would be empty and drool. I like the fire and brimstone that’s shoot back and forth about the various topics here. We all don’t resemble the Marlboro Man in neat tidy packages. So, who the fuck should care. Some folks (yes, old ones) just don’t like the water muddied upstream from where they’re standing. They can’t see that the water is changing and they’re even standing in it. They’re the type of people that have all the comments at the wrong time. They don’t want to listen and learn. A good example that want to share happened to me before I became of age years ago. I was the only one working a hole and had been there for several hours. I worked it from all directions and changed my strategy each time and was starting to show some action but not hooking anything. I finally hooked a stealhead (half-pounder) but he shook off right as my thumb touched the lower jaw. I went right back to my stance and now had an audience of wannabes. On my very next cast I hooked a good five pounder and somehow knew my day was over. Here I was trying to land a fish on poor tired equipment, drowning out the questions from the fishermen on the bank. What you using? How deep you? What’s your angle of drift? And so on, and made only one comment to the guys that that the fish where in close and right on the bottom. Somehow they didn’t hear a word I said or thought I didn’t know what I was talking about. When I had that fresh pink and silver up on the beach I looked behind and smiled as these two guys twice my age mucked up the hole. In short order instead listening to what I said, they proceed to go deep and spooked all chances getting a fish for the rest of the day. People only listen to what they want to hear, and then only act on a portion of that. This is a wonderful county we live in. We have the freedom to move about, disagree with the government and speak our minds without going to jail. Tim, feel free to speak what’s on your mind, as we all need a little education to grow with. Oh, by the way, the only true sports are mountain climbing, auto racing, and bull fighting, everything else are games or pastimes. Doug Knight

Response:

: Oh, and you might wish to reconsider that open invitation for anyone to : join you fishing. I’m over in Denver and it takes very little prompting : for me to drive to your side of the divide. You wouldn’t want to wake up : at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on : your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew. Especially one over 6 feet tall. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations.   Generally (Powlesland excepted) I never, ever attack individuals and I challenge anyone to finding an ad hominum post made by me in all the years of alt.fishing and roff.  I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.

I too love a good laugh, Tim, and you and I have shared many enjoyable moments both in ng’s and private e-mail.  Nevertheless, I think your assessment of your newsgroup communications is a little too generous.  I would not have brought this up on my own, but since you have raised the issue I will say that I have felt at times that you have made use of ad hominum arguments.  Since 1993, in various ng’s, I have said that mandated C&R is a management tool which works well for some sport fisheries on wild populations.  Mixtures of mandated C&R and allowed C&K work well in other fisheries.  And very liberal C&K works well in some fisheries, too.  But there have been times when, in response, you have painted me as being a total C&R enthusiast, without exception.  And when I have offered C&R data from published, refereed studies, and observations made on specific fisheries which thrive under partial or total C&R management, your responses have not always been gracious.  For example, I recall one article into which I also "put a lot of work and thought," only to have you dismiss it by saying "nothing new here, so no response."  My feeling, quite frankly, was that you simply had nothing to offer in response to my well-documented presentation. In my opinion, newsgroups have not turned out to be particularly good public forums for reasoned discussion.  They lend themselves all too well to shouting matches.  You do add "variety and spice," but there are other good things which you could also add to r.o.f.f.  However, since you don’t want any "damned lectures"…. I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others. BTW – I am about to embark on several photographic journies in the new binaries group… 2) real pictures of scarred old warriors from real C&R areas.  I think this a very worthwhile endeavor.

In fairness and objectivity, you could also post pictures of…. oh, yeah, no lectures….   Woods Hole, MA   USA

Response:

..some valid observations snipped… Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng.

… more snipped for brevity… T-Bone, When you’re under sustained attack it can be easy to let it get you down eventually. Don’t forget that taking any stand outside of the crowd (herd) makes you a target, particularly for the lowest common denominator of which there are the greatest number. These are also the ones that seldom have anything to add other than a "me too" or to attack someone without any positive input. Thus, you have to just write off the clowns that have nothing more to say other than to let vituperative spittle dribble onto their keyboards. Many of those posts remind me of a Dilbert comic where Dilbert and Wally are having a flamewar via the net between adjacent work cubicles. Dilbert is flexing his finger muscles and says "Come on flameboy, just try me" (quote may not be exact). The point being that the net lets those that are afraid to voice an independent opinion or that consider adding a five letter word to a string of 4-letterers to be intellectual discourse to have input without fear of retaliation. You have to just let it be water off a CDC. The net is the electronic Hyde Park. Everyone has a voice (if you have a computer, the electronic soapbox, of course). Hell, even Powlesland says something interesting every 20 or 30 posts or so (statistics not verified). Those that try to shout down other voices they don’t like should not be given your full consideration. Just ignore them. It’s just white noise in the background. Jon

Response:

(lotsa stuff deleted)

I follow the posts to roff pretty carefully and Tim’s have interested me because of the informal moderator’s role he often assumes. I for one am impressed by his generosity of spirit, civility, humor, general decency and sanity. For whatever little its worth, I think there are many sane and thoughtful roff readers who feel pretty much the same way, our various C&R differences not withstanding. And I’ll bet you that a straw poll of roff readers, were that possible, would confirm that. This ain’t exactly a private club, Tim. It has more similarity to a group of people who mostly share a common interest, discussing it on a street corner. Anyone can drift in, and some real dusies do just that. You’ve got a lot of friends and well-wishers on roff, T-Bone. Don’t let noise and rudeness from silly people get to you. You’re the spice in the food around here. From Philjack’s response: At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me. Screw ‘em…

My advise exactly, Tim. Screw ‘em like a big dog. Tight lines and, respective to forks, light tines – Lon Lon Hall Applied Intelligence Group, Inc. Fly Fisher and Cooking Enthusiast "Eat the rich. The poor are tough and stringy."

Response:

Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations.

etc….. Tim, I have been lurking in this newsgroup for about two years.  I find your posts both interesting and informative.  I know it is difficult to have people flaming you, but you just need to keep doing what you think is right.  When people give me a hard time, I remember this quote: To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.         Elbert Hubbard It helps me, I hope it helps you. Keep up the good work! Trent

Response:

In my opinion, newsgroups have not turned out to be particularly good public forums for reasoned discussion.

I agree. I used to think the problem was the medium. That is, a person read a post, formed an opinion, and typed it, pressing Send before thinking, carefully, about each word, every idea, and their implications. Usenet anonymity, no accountability, little if any responsibility. More recently, I’ve begun to think the problem is not the medium, but the people who use it (perhaps our culture as a whole). Yes, it makes me shudder, for I see them in myself. What does this have to do with fly fishing??? Everything… or nothing at all. Mitch Red-Neck at Large

Response:

there have been times when, in response, you have painted me as being a total C&R enthusiast, without exception.  And when I have offered C&R data from published, refereed studies, and observations made on specific fisheries which thrive under partial or total C&R management, your responses have not always been gracious.  For example, I recall one article into which I also "put a lot of work and thought," only to have you dismiss

In the spirit of debate ?  Isn’t that the difference ? If we, in an electronic discussion, or sitting in a bar and I said: "Bob, you ignorant slut…the little wahoooocheee doesn’t need TU meddling…" and you said: "Tim, you complete boob, research by Dr. Chumnfertrout states…" Is this not different then a post which reads: "Bob Golder is a Jerk, I wish he would take his fucking opinions about TU over to alt.dickheads" I contend that I am the object of the latter and I will not deny that I participate in the former. TimW

Response:

If we, in an electronic discussion, or sitting in a bar and I said: "Bob, you ignorant slut…the little wahoooocheee doesn’t need TU meddling…" Is this not different then a post which reads: "Bob Golder is a Jerk, I wish he would take his fucking opinions about TU over to alt.dickheads"

Oh yes, I’d _much_ rather be called an ignorant slut than a jerk!   I _think_ you are saying that in the first example, you’re talking WITH me, but in the second example you’re talking AT me or even ABOUT me. Communication is possible in the first example, but more difficult and perhaps impossible in the second example. Whether in a bar or at a computer terminal, the next thing I’d ask you is how would TU get factored into our typical conversations about C&R vs. C&K?  Trout Unlimited is not a C&R-only organization.  TU is not even a fly fishing organization, but accepts spincasting and baitcasting, both with artificial lures and with bait.  That’s why the Federation of Fly Fishers was originally formed by people who objected to these TU policies.  Tim, I think that this illustrates another reason why some people get frustrated with you.  In the middle of a conversation about C&R, all of a sudden you might be knocking TU or cutting osier branches to paint the water for brookies (a lovely image, to be sure, but one which fetches linear thinkers up a bit short.  We can get a bit fussy when that happens.). So I think that some people are confused or possibly made angry by the freewheeling nature of your posts, as well as by the actual substance (if any!  :-) ) of your comments.  But no one should insult you or send hate mail to you as a result of your communications. Woods Hole, MA   USA

Response:

: Hello thoughtful readers, : I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing : offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some : fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts : here to come to western colorado and fish with me. Careful, I might take you up on it.  ;)

I’d be careful too.  Wayne might take him up on it.  I know that my travels ever do find me in Colorado again I will most certainly try and look Tim up for a couple hours or more of fishing. : I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, : or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity : in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others.   : Is that too much to ask ?   For some people, yes.  It has been my observation that a lynch mob mentality can start when one poster starts to flame another. It’s happened to me.  Kinda makes you open season.

Often there might be a lynch mob merely because someone has posted something so contraversial that a lot of people disagree with it and want to express their opinion.  Tim posts on a contraversial topic and I would expect a lot of responses and I think he handles them quite well without resorting to vitriol and ad hominem attacks.  I can’t say the same thing for many of the people that disagree with him.  The other day someone declared that they were creating a killfile with Tim’s name in it.  I really couldn’t understand why someone would do that merely because they disagreed with his opinions.  If Tim presented them in a flammatory manner, attacking the people that use pure C&R rather then the practice I could understand but he doesn’t. I hope that those responsible for Tim’s posting will honor his request. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations.   Generally (Powlesland excepted) I never, ever attack individuals and I challenge anyone to finding an ad hominum post made by me in all the years of alt.fishing and roff.  I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.  I try to ad variety and spice to what I feel would be a pretty droll ng sometimes.  I offer patterns and help and have spent hours offline helping flyfishermen of all walks.   I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts here to come to western colorado and fish with me. In short, I love the sport as I love life itself. Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others.   Is that too much to ask ?   TimW BTW – I am about to embark on several photographic journies in the new binaries group… 1) Tying sequences for Western Flies 2) real pictures of scarred old warriors from real C&R areas.  I think this a very worthwhile endeavor.   At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.   This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others.   Is that too much to ask ?   At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me.

Having visited roff for the past few months it’s taken a while to learn a bit about the personalities who post here. It’s easy particularly in the first few visits to take posts (particularly those tongue in cheek) out of context and come away thinking that there’s a fine stock of creeps on this ng. Further there have been much unneeded barbs shot at identifable people &groups: namely GG, Rex Geirach Gary Borger ,the yuppy ff crowd and anyone who buys Orvis. Perhaps it’s good fun but someone is bound to take it personal. BEWARE those who give out should be prepared to get as good as they give. For my part I’ve got no intent to be deliberately malicious. I’d also add that over my months of browsing T-bone’s proven to be one of the more entertaining and though provoking denizens of these occassionally deep and troubled waters. Ralph H.

Response:

: Hello thoughtful readers, : I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing : offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some : fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts : here to come to western colorado and fish with me. Careful, I might take you up on it.  ;) : I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, : or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity : in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others.   : Is that too much to ask ?   For some people, yes.  It has been my observation that a lynch mob mentality can start when one poster starts to flame another. It’s happened to me.  Kinda makes you open season. Later, Jon Porter

Response:

Question:

I was fishing tonight for catfish at a local pond using chicken liver. I got numerous bites, maybe 15 or so in a 3 hour period.  Yet I only managed to catch one.  The liver was pretty soft and kept falling off the hook.  Should I be using treble hooks??  What size would you recommend for cats??  Any special techniques I should take into account when getting bites?? i.e. when do I set the hook?  Any special way to keep the liver secure on the hook?  Anyone???  Bueller???  Thanks for the help!!!                   Good luck, er fishing…                                 JOHN

Response:

: I was fishing tonight for catfish at a local pond using chicken liver. : I got numerous bites, maybe 15 or so in a 3 hour period.  Yet I only : managed to catch one.  The liver was pretty soft and kept falling off : the hook.  Should I be using treble hooks??  What size would you : recommend for cats??  Any special techniques I should take into account : when getting bites?? i.e. when do I set the hook?  Any special way to : keep the liver secure on the hook?  Anyone???  Bueller???  Thanks for : the help!!!   Ah. Welcome to "livers." Since cats in my neck of the woods like minnows (live or dead) as well as anything, I won’t touch chicken livers with a stick. Went fishing once with a friend. He used livers, and wiped his f*cking hands off on his pants. Got in my car, smearing that juice all over my seat. For a week, afterwards, my car stank. "No dear, that wasn’t me…." Anyway, yeah — you can use trebles, but I don’t recommend it. Yes, the liver stays on much better, but it’s not a good hook for cats (unlike a "Kahle(sp?)"), and if they do gulp it, it’s the devil’s own work, unhooking it. Instead — either fry the livers very briefly, or leave them out in the sun, first, for a while. That toughens ‘em up, and they won’t fly off the hook when you cast.

Response:

: I was fishing tonight for catfish at a local pond using chicken liver. : I got numerous bites, maybe 15 or so in a 3 hour period.  Yet I only : managed to catch one.  The liver was pretty soft and kept falling off : the hook.  Should I be using treble hooks??  What size would you : recommend for cats??  Any special techniques I should take into account : when getting bites?? i.e. when do I set the hook?  Any special way to : keep the liver secure on the hook?  Anyone???  Bueller???  Thanks for : the help!!!

You could use two small trebs englobbed in the flesh. TimW

Response:

: I was fishing tonight for catfish at a local pond using chicken liver. : I got numerous bites, maybe 15 or so in a 3 hour period.  Yet I only : managed to catch one.  The liver was pretty soft and kept falling off : the hook.  Should I be using treble hooks??  What size would you : recommend for cats??  Any special techniques I should take into account : when getting bites?? i.e. when do I set the hook?  Any special way to : keep the liver secure on the hook?  Anyone???  Bueller???  Thanks for : the help!!! You could use two small trebs englobbed in the flesh. TimW

you can use what we call out here magic thread. what is it, it is a thread about the size of dental floss and it is elastic you take a live to a hook and hold on to one end of the thread and pull it tight and wrap the meat to the hook. let go of it and it senches the liver to the hook no knots to tie. it works great happy trails robert

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I was fishing tonight for catfish at a local pond using chicken liver. : I got numerous bites, maybe 15 or so in a 3 hour period.  Yet I only : managed to catch one.  The liver was pretty soft and kept falling off : the hook.  Should I be using treble hooks??  What size would you : recommend for cats??  Any special techniques I should take into account : when getting bites?? i.e. when do I set the hook?  Any special way to : keep the liver secure on the hook?  Anyone???  Bueller???  Thanks for : the help!!!   Ah. Welcome to "livers." Since cats in my neck of the woods like minnows (live or dead) as well as anything, I won’t touch chicken livers with a stick. Went fishing once with a friend. He used livers, and wiped his f*cking hands off on his pants. Got in my car, smearing that juice all over my seat. For a week, afterwards, my car stank. "No dear, that wasn’t me…." Anyway, yeah — you can use trebles, but I don’t recommend it. Yes, the liver stays on much better, but it’s not a good hook for cats (unlike a "Kahle(sp?)"), and if they do gulp it, it’s the devil’s own work, unhooking it. Instead — either fry the livers very briefly, or leave them out in the sun, first, for a while. That toughens ‘em up, and they won’t fly off the hook when you cast.

Just put all the livers you want in the toe of an old pair of pantyhose…tie it off of pin it shut…insert hook and feel free to cast as hard as you want….Good luck!  this technique has really gotten me some massive channel cats in the rivers of PA…

Response:

: I was fishing tonight for catfish at a local pond using chicken liver. : I got numerous bites, maybe 15 or so in a 3 hour period.  Yet I only : managed to catch one.  The liver was pretty soft and kept falling off : the hook.  Should I be using treble hooks??  What size would you : recommend for cats??  Any special techniques I should take into account : when getting bites?? i.e. when do I set the hook?  Any special way to : keep the liver secure on the hook?  Anyone???  Bueller???  Thanks for : the help!!!   Take a spool of light cotton thread with you and wrap about a foot of it around the liver to hold in place. Don’t wrap it too tight or it’ll slice the liver. I like cotton thread because it breaks easy and I don’t need to hunt for my knife all the time, it just breaks with a pull. Try beef or pork liver, works just as well and stays on the hook better. BiNM

Response:

I just wanted to second this: Since cats in my neck of the woods like minnows (live or dead) as well as anything, I won’t touch chicken livers with a stick.

I do use liver every now and then, or get some of that "catfish bait" in the tubs at the store. But catfish really like live small fish or large minnows (check your regs before using small fish – here it is okay to use small sunfish only if you catch them legally with hook and line) or cut bait. Night crawlers also work well. If it is legal to chum, you can toss a liver in near your line to attract cats. Once they arrive, they will eat other offerings as well. -Andy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I was fishing tonight for catfish at a local pond using chicken liver. : I got numerous bites, maybe 15 or so in a 3 hour period.  Yet I only : managed to catch one.  The liver was pretty soft and kept falling off : the hook.  Should I be using treble hooks??  What size would you : recommend for cats??  Any special techniques I should take into account : when getting bites?? i.e. when do I set the hook?  Any special way to : keep the liver secure on the hook?  Anyone???  Bueller???  Thanks for : the help!!!   Take a spool of light cotton thread with you and wrap about a foot of it around the liver to hold in place. Don’t wrap it too tight or it’ll slice the liver. I like cotton thread because it breaks easy and I don’t need to hunt for my knife all the time, it just breaks with a pull. Try beef or pork liver, works just as well and stays on the hook better. BiNM

You can also use a little square of panty hose wrapped around the liver…

Response:

Question:

I need info on getting info (flyfishing for trout) in northern Washington, Idaho and Montana states. Thanx Bish

Response:

I need info on getting info (flyfishing for trout) in northern Washington, Idaho and Montana states.

Hi Bish Your request is fairly broad.  In Washington I recommend you contact the Blue Dun Fly Shop in Wenatchee (509-664-2416) and in Idaho check with the Cast a Way Fly Shop in Coeur d’Alene (208-765-3313). In Montana the Yellowstone River is fishing good, most of the waters in the Park are also fishing well.  The Clarks Fork is high but starting to turn on.  The Madison is good AM & PM and slow through the day.  The Gallatin is Fishing good through the day and into the evening (caddis).   Hoppers, caddis, woolly buggers, and bead heads are the flies of choice.  Also Wulffs, Trudes, etc. are alway a good choice. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

The following are acouple of places that may be able to answer questions about fly fishing in Montana http://www.cyberport.net/ecs/troutski/troutski.html http://www.cyberport.net/ecs/wwater/gnwwater.html — Electronic Cottage Services http://www.cyberport.net/ecs/lakeco/business/ecs/ecshome.html PO Box 81 Polson, MT 59860 406-887-2899

Response:

The following are acouple of places that may be able to answer questions about fly fishing in Montana

OR NOT!!!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Path: news.micron.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.ed u!swrinde!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!nn tp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.fibr.net!news.inter netMCI.com!news-admin Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: InternetMCI Lines: 7 NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup535.bloomington.mci.net The following are acouple of places that may be able to answer questions about fly fishing in Montana OR NOT!!!

Try calling the Idaho Outfitters and Guides Association or visit the Idaho home page.

Response:

Question:

I’m taking a trip in June.  I have no clue about the possibilities and need help.  Bone, cuda, what?  Please help!

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Bermuda used to be famous for Yellowfin tuna and Wahoo (30-80Lbs). The charter boats would go 2 hours out to two reefs, anchor and then chum. Not that many people fly fished for those brutes. There was also Bermuda Jack that run about 20 Lbs. I don’t know how good the fishing is these days. You’ll have to ask the Government Tourist office in Bermuda. Alan Card and his brother used to be the best charter captains on the island, by far, (among the best in the world as far as I’m concerned). There is really no shore fishing because the shore drops off quickly, not like in the Bahamas. Also the Bermuda Chub that are inshore are not worth it (too difficult to catch). Just one last reminder, I think it is too late to make a charter boat reservation with a good captain for this year. You have to book one year in advance. The best time, if I can remember,  for tuna and wahoo is June and October. Remember, this is very expensive fishing, very classy island. But I have had some of my best fishing experiences there. Sort of like going Marlin fishing in Hawaii.  

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503/639-6400.  He knows tons of details and can set you up or you could just pick his brain.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m taking a trip in June.  I have no clue about the possibilities and need help.  Bone, cuda, what?  Please help!

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Call Jerry Swanson at Kaufmann’s Streamborn: 800/442-4359; 503/639-6400.  He knows lots of details and he can help set you up (he books lots ‘o trips) or you could just pick his brain.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m taking a trip in June.  I have no clue about the possibilities and need help.  Bone, cuda, what?  Please help!

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