Question:

Just wondering if anybody know the average strength of a fly line, I know the tippet will break long before the fly line but going fishing for pike, having wire leader.. I found that if you pull to hard on a nail knot, the coating let go quite easily. so I am assuming a loop connection will be stronger. Thanks Claude

Response:

Just wondering if anybody know the average strength of a fly line, I know the tippet will break long before the fly line but going fishing for pike, having wire leader.. I found that if you pull to hard on a nail knot, the coating let go quite easily. so I am assuming a loop connection will be stronger.

Don’t know, but took some old fly line and it broke surprisingly easily. The thing is, longer sections of fly line have an amazing amount of stretch in them.  Tie 60 feet to a tree someday and see if you can break it. I think the nail knot holds only because it digs into the coating.  If the coating is breaking free, then I don’t know – is it cheap fly line?

Response:

No just brand new top of the line flyline. Like you said if the pike or any other big fish is strong enough and you have, let says 20 pound test leader, I am not sure that the coating will hold. It never happened to me because we use the drag etc, but let say your fly is stuck on a branch and you want to pull it out. I think the tip of the fly line will brake first but you lose just couple of inches. Thanks for you thought Claude  I think the nail knot holds only because it digs into the coating.  If the – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – coating is breaking free, then I don’t know – is it cheap fly line?

Response:

Just wondering if anybody know the average strength of a fly line, I know the tippet will break long before the fly line but going fishing for pike, having wire leader.. I found that if you pull to hard on a nail knot, the coating let go quite easily. so I am assuming a loop connection will be stronger. Thanks Claude

Flyline breaking strength varies considerably, depending on the core material used.  The core is the same over the whole length of the flyline. The tip end is not thinner, it just has less coating. If you are using a 20 lb BS wire tippet on your leader, ( A ten lb wire leader is usually more than enough ), then use a ten pound bs nylon link to it. When fishing for very heavy fish, a nail knot is unreliable, Either use a proper needle knot ( which goes up the core of the line), or use a loop in the core itself. TL MC

Response:

Thanks for your input Mike Claude – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Flyline breaking strength varies considerably, depending on the core material used.  The core is the same over the whole length of the flyline. The tip end is not thinner, it just has less coating. If you are using a 20 lb BS wire tippet on your leader, ( A ten lb wire leader is usually more than enough ), then use a ten pound bs nylon link to it. When fishing for very heavy fish, a nail knot is unreliable, Either use a proper needle knot ( which goes up the core of the line), or use a loop in the core itself. TL MC

Response:

Just wondering if anybody know the average strength of a fly line, I know the tippet will break long before the fly line but going fishing for pike, having wire leader.. I found that if you pull to hard on a nail knot, the coating let go quite easily. so I am assuming a loop connection will be stronger. Thanks Claude

Assume incorrectly, but that’s alright. I did that once. This is why you want to use the needle to thread your butt section up the center of your fly line core, out the side and then finish off. George Gehrke

Response:

Hi Claude, I think that fresh water fly lines to about size #7 have at least a 20# test braided core. I think that #8 and larger have at least a 30# braided core. We use a "needle nail knot" on both ends of most freshwater flylines that have hollow braided cores. Braided mono loop connections are getting very popular for lines with solid mono cores. The coating will come off easier on off brand fly lines because they have not learned how to properly bond to the core. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just wondering if anybody know the average strength of a fly line, I know the tippet will break long before the fly line but going fishing for pike, having wire leader.. I found that if you pull to hard on a nail knot, the coating let go quite easily. so I am assuming a loop connection will be stronger. Thanks Claude

Response:

I’ve found that a well tied nail knot is very strong, at least 15 pounds, usually 25 before it pulls the coating off.  The key is that the loops all have to be working for you, not just one or two.  You have to be careful to fget the knot to snug up eavenly, and you need to get it tight before you test it.  I routinely tie a couple feet of 30# or 40# Maxima to the line with a nail knot, even on my ten weight lines I use in salt water.  I’ve broken 20# leaders when I’m snagged deep, but I’ve never pulled the nail knot out. The backing knot is different, as would the leader knot be if you used a lighter leader.  8# mono, and 20# or 30# backing pull into tighter loops, and can consentrate the pinch in one loop easily.  That pulls the coating off, sometimes with only 5 to 10 pounds of tension. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No just brand new top of the line flyline. Like you said if the pike or any other big fish is strong enough and you have, let says 20 pound test leader, I am not sure that the coating will hold. It never happened to me because we use the drag etc, but let say your fly is stuck on a branch and you want to pull it out. I think the tip of the fly line will brake first but you lose just couple of inches. Thanks for you thought Claude I think the nail knot holds only because it digs into the coating.   If the coating is breaking free, then I don’t know – is it cheap fly line?

Fix underscore in address to reply

Response:

I have tried 50 pound dumbells, no break on  some old Orvis line I replaced but can’t seem to throw away… Chris Fanning

Response:

I have tried 50 pound dumbells, no break on  some old Orvis line I replaced but can’t seem to throw away… Chris Fanning

Prefer weighted nymphs myself. TL MC

Response:

I have tried 50 pound dumbells, no break on  some old Orvis line I replaced but can’t seem to throw away… Prefer weighted nymphs myself. TL MC

Must make for difficult casting! :=}

Response:

I have tried 50 pound dumbells, no break on  some old Orvis line I replaced but can’t seem to throw away… Prefer weighted nymphs myself. TL MC Must make for difficult casting! :=}

Not to mention fly tying…

Response:

Question:

Lots of good fishing on Bushkill Creek, but Ressica Falls is extra-special.  Actually, there are a lot of Big and Little Bushkill Creeks in Pennsylvania; Ressica Falls is near 611 & 402. Ressica Falls is owned by the Liberty Council of the Boy Scouts of America, and a permit is required to fish there.  Way worth it. The stream is as pretty as any you’ll find, the water as suited for trout as you could like, and the water is so well-stocked with nice trout that first time visitors are likely to be flabbergasted.  Hatches are common in spring and summer, and can be quite abundant.  Imagine standing in hemlock lined pool, fishing a riffle, with ten trout rising noisily all around you.  Now imagine miles of stream just like that.  Now imagine you’ve just hooked a 14" brown, and boy is he pissed.  That’s Ressica Falls. Wednesday evening was quite warm.  Once again, forgot to check the water temp, but was comfy while wading wet, until my pipe started rattling in my teeth, and I started shaking violently as soon as I stepped out to go home.  ’Bout 55 degrees? Quill Gordon duns and spinners, as well as grannoms were out and about.  a tan-colored fly was also laying eggs on the water, but I wasn’t able to get a good look.  The trout were taking small brown imitations, quill gordens, henrysville, etc.  As it got dark and I was forced to switch to lighter colored flies, hits became tougher to get. Also out in profusion were buffalo gnats.  These are like the no-see-ums of the North, except that you can see them.  In fact, you can rope ‘em and ride ‘em.  You usually won’t get bitten by one; you’ll get bitten by 5 or 6.  As a repellent, I recommend a burly pipe tobacco, as they are quite aggressive. The stream bed is rocky, with numerous pools and riffles, and it’s full of brookies, browns , and rainbows.  Careful wading is important.  The scenery is beautiful, and the entire experience is more than worth the modest permit fee. Two words of caution: first, pesky bears.  Bothersome bears occasionally hassle folks in this area.  Just don’t be afraid of them. Bears can smell fear, you know.  Don’t poke them with a stick either; they really don’t like that, take my word for it. Chiggers – very common here.  Any exposed skin can become home to those cuddly little burrowing mites, and I’ve got a red dot on the side of my knee to prove it. Jeez, I feel bad that I forgot to get the water temp for you.  I’ll go back up this evening & do it right this time.  That is, if I don’t forgot again, what with the trout rising all around me, bitey gnats nipping at my ears, tobacco fog all around my head, snarly bears trying to get my attention, minimites digging holes through me like a swiss cheese, and me with the wrong fly all tangled up around the tip of my rod. Timothy Juvenal In sleep every dog dreams of food, and I, a fisherman, dream of fish.     -Theocritus

Response:

Lots of good fishing on Bushkill Creek, but Ressica Falls is extra-special.  Actually, there are a lot of Big and Little Bushkill Creeks in Pennsylvania; Ressica Falls is near 611 & 402. Ressica Falls is owned by the Liberty Council of the Boy Scouts of America, and a permit is required to fish there.  Way worth it.

Timothy, Your posts, which are quite pleasant to read, would be even more so if you would kindly set your line length to 70-75 or so. JR — To reply, remove the Qs from the address above

Response:

"JR" wrote …  kindly set your line length to 70-75 or so.

Oops.  Thanks for the tip. Timothy Juvenal

Response:

Question:

Thanks Frank.`Little stores like this are why we enjoy ROFF. Big Dale

Response:

Thanks for sharing that with us.  Oh how I can relate.  Those Panfish are real stress relievers. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     The day was stressful.  Allot of little failures.  A deadline missed here, some on didn’t come through there.  The person you need to get that report done is off on vacation.  You need a success.  Out of the cubicle farm and on the road.  Gonna hit that fishin’ hole and gonna hit it hard.     You can’t go far, traffic is snarled and the LifeFlight ambulance is landing on the freeway.  Your choice is made, the little pond just a mile or so from work.  In that little pond, you know there is a big fish.  One that will test the limits of your skill and your equipment.  If you land him, that will be the success you need to make up for those stressful little failures that hit you in the face, day in and day out.     You get on the water and work it like a journeyman.  Evaluate the weather, the water, your flies and terminal tackle.  You pick the perfect fly, a prince nymph and knot it on the leader.  You test the knot, not once but twice.  Like a machine you unconsciously run the leader through your fingers and feel for knicks and wind knots.  You decide its good and proceed to pound the banks and work the perfect fan pattern.  You start to your left, right up against the bank and move out at three foot intervals, you are a machine in the groove.     You catch a little sunnie, he’s as warm as the water he comes from.  You toss him back.  He’s not the target today.  You continue the fan pattern and then move down the bank.     You catch a fair size bluegill.  You feel his warmth in your hand as you gently remove the barbless hook.  You don’t toss him in, you  bend down and let him slide in the water.  He dashes to cover.  You continue to cast.     There are some beautiful dragonflies touching down on the water, emerald bluegreen bodies with pitch black wings.  You notice that when they open their wings there is a little white spot on the inside tips.     You catch a small bass, 11 inches that will grow ever larger when the story is told with your fishing buddies.  You think about the people you’ve fished with over the years.  The friends that understood your passion, as they too were imbued with the same fervor.  Some have gone on, like old Elmer who made his own lures and took you fishing after your Dad died.     You pound the water hard, that big fish is elusive.  You cast and, as you fly sinks into the water, a good fish jumps over your line.  You can’t buy a big fish, but the sunnies, bluegill, crappie and 10 to 12 inch bass are coming fast and furious.  Each one looks at you, "will you let me go?" Of course, you’re not here on a meat hunt, you just need that success.  That big fish.     As the evening wears on, you see that each little fish is a fighter.  He is trying to stay where he is against unbeatable odds, graphite rods, modern fly lines, disc drags.  The sky turns a burnt orange as the last rays of the Sun fall on the pond.     Night closes in fast, there is that last burst of energy from the fish in the pond.  They strike your fly like there’s no tomorrow.  Then the pond suddenly goes to sleep.  No more hits, nothing rising.  You continue to cast, in hopes that you’ll get that big success.  But there is no big win. A muskrat swims in front of you. You watch as he moves in a determined line toward the reeds.     You didn’t get that big success, the big fish, the brass ring.  You did enjoy many little successes.  Each fish that fell to the flies that you tied, the wonder of those dragonflies, the color of the sky and the water as they became one.  As with your day of little failures, it was an evening of little successes.  Ying and yang.  The pond is asleep now.  Its time for you to let it rest.  Even fishermen need sleep.                                     Frank Reid

  wendicott.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

When I first started reading, I thought that the LifeFlight was just getting ready for the inevitable.  :) good job Peter

    That’s harsh, really harsh.  When I first saw it, I thought it was the East Coast version of the California condor.  It kept circling above me. Things that make you go hmmmm..                                     Frank "Carrion Baggage" Reid

Response:

    The day was stressful. … Nice write up, thanks. Too bad about the stress on the new job but I sure am happy to hear you had an injury free fishing outing for a change. — Ken Fortenberry

When I first started reading, I thought that the LifeFlight was just getting ready for the inevitable.  :) good job Peter

Response:

Nice report Frank,  a little sanity in the midst of madness eh ? TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     The day was stressful.  Allot of little failures.  A deadline missed

Response:

    The day was stressful. …

Nice write up, thanks. Too bad about the stress on the new job but I sure am happy to hear you had an injury free fishing outing for a change. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

    The day was stressful.  Allot of little failures.  A deadline missed here, some on didn’t come through there.  The person you need to get that report done is off on vacation.  You need a success.  Out of the cubicle farm and on the road.  Gonna hit that fishin’ hole and gonna hit it hard.     You can’t go far, traffic is snarled and the LifeFlight ambulance is landing on the freeway.  Your choice is made, the little pond just a mile or so from work.  In that little pond, you know there is a big fish.  One that will test the limits of your skill and your equipment.  If you land him, that will be the success you need to make up for those stressful little failures that hit you in the face, day in and day out.     You get on the water and work it like a journeyman.  Evaluate the weather, the water, your flies and terminal tackle.  You pick the perfect fly, a prince nymph and knot it on the leader.  You test the knot, not once but twice.  Like a machine you unconsciously run the leader through your fingers and feel for knicks and wind knots.  You decide its good and proceed to pound the banks and work the perfect fan pattern.  You start to your left, right up against the bank and move out at three foot intervals, you are a machine in the groove.     You catch a little sunnie, he’s as warm as the water he comes from.  You toss him back.  He’s not the target today.  You continue the fan pattern and then move down the bank.     You catch a fair size bluegill.  You feel his warmth in your hand as you gently remove the barbless hook.  You don’t toss him in, you  bend down and let him slide in the water.  He dashes to cover.  You continue to cast.     There are some beautiful dragonflies touching down on the water, emerald bluegreen bodies with pitch black wings.  You notice that when they open their wings there is a little white spot on the inside tips.     You catch a small bass, 11 inches that will grow ever larger when the story is told with your fishing buddies.  You think about the people you’ve fished with over the years.  The friends that understood your passion, as they too were imbued with the same fervor.  Some have gone on, like old Elmer who made his own lures and took you fishing after your Dad died.     You pound the water hard, that big fish is elusive.  You cast and, as you fly sinks into the water, a good fish jumps over your line.  You can’t buy a big fish, but the sunnies, bluegill, crappie and 10 to 12 inch bass are coming fast and furious.  Each one looks at you, "will you let me go?" Of course, you’re not here on a meat hunt, you just need that success.  That big fish.     As the evening wears on, you see that each little fish is a fighter.  He is trying to stay where he is against unbeatable odds, graphite rods, modern fly lines, disc drags.  The sky turns a burnt orange as the last rays of the Sun fall on the pond.     Night closes in fast, there is that last burst of energy from the fish in the pond.  They strike your fly like there’s no tomorrow.  Then the pond suddenly goes to sleep.  No more hits, nothing rising.  You continue to cast, in hopes that you’ll get that big success.  But there is no big win. A muskrat swims in front of you. You watch as he moves in a determined line toward the reeds.     You didn’t get that big success, the big fish, the brass ring.  You did enjoy many little successes.  Each fish that fell to the flies that you tied, the wonder of those dragonflies, the color of the sky and the water as they became one.  As with your day of little failures, it was an evening of little successes.  Ying and yang.  The pond is asleep now.  Its time for you to let it rest.  Even fishermen need sleep.                                     Frank Reid

Response:

Question:

I need some help casting.  I’m fairly new to the sport and trying to improve all the time.  I just bought my second rod and spent a lot more money on it. I did it right this time, I hope.  However, that’s have nothing to do with my problem.  I was out at our local park practicing my casting.  The back cast looked good, the loop was fairly small and shot backwards like two horizontal lines that straightened out to one.   I let the line continue to straighten out and then made my forward cast without whipping the rod.  The line moved over my head and rolled in front of me.  That’s the problem.  The forward cast had a large loop instead of shooting straight forward.  I should mention that there was a very slight wind that I was casting into. However, it was a very slight wind.  I’ve been told to close up the loop in the back and it will help eliminate the forward loop.  However, I think my back cast looks good.  How can I get rid of the large loop in my forward cast?  Any advise will help.  I will try all requests at my local park before driving out to the field.

Response:

I should have said that this regarding fly fishing.  Thanks

Response:

Question:

Dave was unable to attend the ceremonies as I was stuck at work trying to make PeopleSoft run…what a bummer…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By the grace of God its BEEN DONE!!!! In a historic moment in Maines history, the infamous Edwards Dam on the mighty Kennebec River was breached at 9:36 A.M. this morning. 17 miles of freeflowing river has been returned to the fish and the people! [snipped] From one CUrmudgeon to another: OUT-FREAKIN’-STANDING!!!!!! Wish I could’ve been there to watch the festivities, Ed. Did you and Dave take the "Green Submarine" out to officiate? /daytripper ps: Does this mean I can remove that old bumper sticker? ;^)

Response:

Dave was unable to attend the ceremonies as I was stuck at work trying to make PeopleSoft run…what a bummer…

Ah – another illustrious CU member and Ordealist Extraordinaire heard from. Take heart old friend, you’ll be cruising those seventeen miles for years to come! /daytripper (fishing the Kennebec in his dreams…)

Response:

I am sure the information, in detail, is beginning to circulate everywhere.   There are a couple of TU News Release Articles at Rx F Fish in our News Release section at:  http://www.rxffish.com/PR The same information is also available from TU.   Either place, it’s great reading of an historic and very meaningful event that will surely have many long-range benefits for decades to come. Regards,   Trent Roberson ***** – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ladies and Gentlemen!!! By the grace of God its BEEN DONE!!!! In a historic moment in Maines history, the infamous Edwards Dam on the mighty Kennebec River was breached at 9:36 A.M. this morning. 17 miles of freeflowing river has been returned to the fish and the people! I never thought we’d see it in my lifetime, but I saw it with MY OWN EYES!!!! God bless America, Land of the Free! Here’s some pointers to the latest: www.ctel.net/~mudfish  My home page for a report on the breaching and www.ctel.net/mudfish/condi/  my river conditions page with some thoughs as I left the river late last evening.. (this is NOT a commercial spam). Please no flames :8). www.centralmaine.com/edwards/  Carl Natale’s feature story for Blethen Newspapers featuring some hot pictures of the KENNEBEC RIVER EVENT OF THE YEAR! Tight lines Ed Blum Registered Maine Guide

Trent P Roberson                  Rx F Fish        For your good health, Fly Fish             http://www.rxffish.com             FREE Business Listings          For the Fly Fishing Industry          http://www.rxffish.com/index2.htm            rxfNET Development Group        Web Site Development and Hosting       Image Editing – - Software Training       Marketing and Internet Consultation          http://www.rxffish.com/rxfnet

Response:

By the grace of God its BEEN DONE!!!! In a historic moment in Maines history, the infamous Edwards Dam on the mighty Kennebec River was breached at 9:36 A.M. this morning. 17 miles of freeflowing river has been returned to the fish and the people!

[snipped] From one CUrmudgeon to another: OUT-FREAKIN’-STANDING!!!!!! Wish I could’ve been there to watch the festivities, Ed. Did you and Dave take the "Green Submarine" out to officiate? /daytripper ps: Does this mean I can remove that old bumper sticker? ;^)

Response:

Ladies and Gentlemen!!! By the grace of God its BEEN DONE!!!! In a historic moment in Maines history, the infamous Edwards Dam on the mighty Kennebec River was breached at 9:36 A.M. this morning. 17 miles of freeflowing river has been returned to the fish and the people! I never thought we’d see it in my lifetime, but I saw it with MY OWN EYES!!!! God bless America, Land of the Free! Here’s some pointers to the latest: www.ctel.net/~mudfish  My home page for a report on the breaching and www.ctel.net/mudfish/condi/  my river conditions page with some thoughs as I left the river late last evening.. (this is NOT a commercial spam).  Please no flames :8). www.centralmaine.com/edwards/  Carl Natale’s feature story for Blethen Newspapers featuring some hot pictures of the KENNEBEC RIVER EVENT OF THE YEAR! Tight lines Ed Blum Registered Maine Guide

Response:

Question:

Going to fish the Upper Kern River (between Kernville and Johnsondale) in California over Thanksgiving.  I have never fished this water before and would appreciate any suggestions regarding fly patterns and fishing locations. Thanks in advance, Kirk

Response:

Kirk, Every Thanksgiving I go over the hill and through the woods to my Grandmother’s house in Lake Isabella.  And I always try to do a little fishing on the Kern while I’m there.  I find it to be pretty tough fishing at that time of year and I have yet to discover what pattern works and what the best place to fish is in the section of the river you’ll be fishing. There’s a fly shop in Kernville where the road crossing the river T’s into north/south route that parallels the river on its eastern side.  You might try dropping in there for info. Generally, I have had better luck by hiking in a couple miles above the Johnsondale bridge and working my way upstream from there.  You might try a dry they call the "Kern Special" in the store I mentioned above.  It’s basically a royal wulff but with a green waist instead of a red one. —                                                       -dnc- KIRK BANNERMAN wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Going to fish the Upper Kern River (between Kernville and Johnsondale) in California over Thanksgiving.  …

Response:

what a co-inky-dink! California FlyFisher (Oct 98) has an article on this stretch of water! Might want to pick up a copy B4U go. Larry #:)#

Response:

Question:

Dams and pondliners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

Right. And when (not if) those liners fail: 100 years, 500 years, even 2000 years if wer’e really lucky, the entire area becomes a superfund site.  Note that the acid leaches lots of heavy metals, highly toxic, *other* than gold, which poison the ground and the water supply. – - – the cyanide is not the major problem!    it’s the leached metals – - – which Jim won’t discuss I suppose Jim is gonna claim that the damn $1.83 per acre will pay for the impossible clean-up, like it has in Colarado? Jim, exactly how would you clean up those Colorado acid leach sites ??? – - –   Funny thing these ‘white people’: They see a mountain, all they want to do is blow it into a pile of acid leaching crap (note the acid leached a lot of *really* poisonous heavy metals). For a few pounds of shiny yellow metal, which they’ve already got more of in Fort Knox than they can do anything productive or pretty with.   Then these ‘white people’ take the money, declare the company bankrupt, and skip town… all the time whining about how we are interfering with ‘their west’.   If this is an excuse to make them rich at taxpayer expense, lets just bring back welfare and GIVE them the damn money *not* to totally fuck up the place. Let ‘em sit at home and watch TV. I’ve seen enough hard rock mining shit to care a lot about this… I’m not sorry about the language.

Response:

Yeah sure cyanide disappers quickly. We have an old  Phelps Dodge outside Pecos, right on the river. Between the mercury and the cyanide in that area you are not advised to eat the fish. I have fished that area and the coating on my fly poles have been eaten off. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

Seadog – Still lost at Sea

Response:

  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.

Yes, cyanide is highly toxic, but please explain the statement regarding MOST mines leaking cyanide into nearby streams. While it is true that there have been cyanide leaks,  the word MOST is very misleading.  Some specific numbers would be quite interesting to see.  And cyanide does not persist for a long time. Shawn

Response:

  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.

Yes, but this is the first ever "gold" mining venture, in which gold is the primary objective.  Of course they have removed gold from copper operations, but they were not "gold" mining.    Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Yes, cyanide is highly toxic, but please explain the statement regarding MOST mines leaking cyanide into nearby streams. While it is true that there have been cyanide leaks,  the word MOST is very misleading.  Some specific numbers would be quite interesting to see.  And cyanide does not persist for a long time. Shawn This statement is also true.  Mines that have used the heap-leach method

use impoundment dams that collect the waste cyanide.  The dams are lined with polyurethane liners that are as thick as a nickel.  In addition, the ore piles are put on top of polyurethane sheets which are supposed to keep the cyanide out of groundwater.  Every major Montana mine; and large mining companies are the primary users of cyanide-leaching has been cited for some type of water quality violation, most of which are related to cyanide leakage.  The liners are often the reason for the leak; holes, tears, seam leakage.  Rain storms have been a cause also, as they have filled up waste reservoirs and caused them to overflow.  If cyanide gets into groundwater, it gets into streams.     A large enough cyanide spill, or consistent leakage can persist for a long time in streams and rivers.  Usually, by the time groundwater leakage of cyanide is detected by the EPA or the Montana Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ), because mining companies are not likely to report, or even know about many of these leaks, they have already done their damage.  Aquatic life is much more sensitive to cyanide in lesser amounts than non aquatic life.   Shawn, keep in mind that the mining industry in Montana may be different from the industry in other states.  Our water quality laws are much more lenient than many places, thus, it is important to pass I-122.  Our past mining history shows that.  If you have any questions about the record regarding cyanide leakage, just contact the Montana Environmental Information Center, who’s address is in my original letter.  Or better yet, come to Montana sometime and see the destruction left in the place where a mountain was before, and fish the rivers that once had fish!                            Craig

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. In 1991 the Summitville Mine in Colorado spilled cyanide and heavy metals into the Alamosa River, killing all aquatic life in a 19 mile stretch. This was after assurances were given when the mine opened that "state of the art" pollution controls were being used. There is a 120 mile section of the Clark Fork River in NW Montana that is a Superfund site because of mining pollution. Dams and ponds do nothing when you have torrential rains and flooding, causing the cyanide and heavy metal solution to overflow, which has happened at a number of mining sites.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah sure cyanide disappers quickly. We have an old  Phelps Dodge outside Pecos, right on the river. Between the mercury and the cyanide in that area you are not advised to eat the fish. I have fished that area and the coating on my fly poles have been eaten off. Seadog – Still lost at Sea

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  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has

<snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.

Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids. Jim

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

In 1991 the Summitville Mine in Colorado spilled cyanide and heavy metals into the Alamosa River, killing all aquatic life in a 19 mile stretch. This was after assurances were given when the mine opened that "state of the art" pollution controls were being used. There is a 120 mile section of the Clark Fork River in NW Montana that is a Superfund site because of mining pollution. Dams and ponds do nothing when you have torrential rains and flooding, causing the cyanide and heavy metal solution to overflow, which has happened at a number of mining sites.

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            BIG INDUSTRY GOLD MINE WILL RUIN MONTANA RIVER   The Blackfoot River, which has flowed clean and cold in Montana from its headwaters near the continental divide for thousands of years is now being threatened by a huge open-pit cyanide heap-leach mine.  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp. and Canyon Resources Inc. – the Seven-Up Pete Joint Venture, wants to mine the river’s headwaters for gold.  The mine site, including 172 million pounds of cyanide, which will be poured over 980 million tons of removed ore from the mountain will sit just 1/4 mile from the Blackfoot River.  (The Blackfoot River, by the way was recently made famous by Norman Maclean in his novel "A River Runs Through It".)   To get at the gold, buried 1,200 feet underground in trace amounts, the mining company will have to dismantle two pine-covered buttes, and for each ton of ore, the miners will recover 0.02 ounces of gold.  The remaining pit, more than a mile across and deep enough to hide the Washington Monument will collect groundwater which will be contaminated with heavy metals, and will have to be pumped out at the rate of 15.8 million gallons a day.   In Butte Montana, the Berkely Pit copper mine, which is no longer in operation has a similar sized hole.  The pit is filling up with water, and officials have no way to get rid of the Carcinogen’s, toxins or metals in it, which have already leaked into the water table of the town of Butte.  The mines copper smelter, the Anaconda Smelter has dumped tons of waste sediment into the Clark Fork River which has already caused several fish-kills, and water quality problems in my town, Missoula MT.   The Blackfoot River feeds into the Clark Fork to the East, before it flows into Missoula, which means that a spill or leak of cyanide or heavy metals into the Blackfoot, would also terminally harm the Clark Fork. Both rivers are currently used regularly for rafting, kayaking, fly fishing and other recreations.   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has had accidents at virtually all its mines.  It has been cited and fined frequently for toxic discharges into nearby waters.  The company has never mined gold in the United States.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.  Even in dilute solutions, cyanide kills fish and other life forms.  A leak of this chemical poison into the Blackfoot could finish the river for decades.   In November, the people of Montana will be voting for or against Initiative 122, "The Clean Water Initiative".  This initiative demands higher standards for removal of carcinogens and toxins before being discharged into state waters.  The current law, one of the most lax water quality laws in the country, allows mine discharges to be diluted after release into state waters, where it is measured down stream after a "mixing zone".  The "mixing zone" technique uses the river to dilute waste rather than using expensive machinery to filter it out. The current "easy to mine cheaply" water law is one of the reasons so many mining corporations seek Montana sites over mine sites in other states.   The Phelps Dodge Mining Co. has spent over 1 million dollars on TV and radio adds in recent months, which Missoula and other communities across the state have been bombarded with.  The adds claim that state water laws are sufficient, which they clearly are not, and that stricter laws for removing higher levels of poisons before discharge from mines will put many mines out of business and hurt the states economy. The so-called "Montanans for Common Sense Water Laws" advertisements that the mining industry has created have been cited as being "illegal" by the fair-election watchdog group, "Common Cause".   "Using a misleading name, "Montanans for Common Sense Water Laws," to run a million-dollar media blitz, the Industry is succeeding in changing citizen beliefs, and they’re breaking the law to do it."  (Hal Harper, Democratic state representative from Helena, MT.)  Unfortunately, many people in the state have been scared by these ads, and swayed into believing that I-122 will hurt the economy and that it unfairly targets the mining industry.  The fact is that mining state-wide, accounts for less than one percent of the workforce, and mining has a long history of causing post mining recessions that hurt the economy.     On top of the adds, the mining industry has donated computers to the local high school, X-ray machines to the local clinic and it helped to insulate the local senior citizens facility in an attempt to win support for the upcoming vote against the Clean Water Initiative.  Proponents of I-122 believe that if a mine can not find a way to clean up their mess before they release water into the river, they should not be mining in the first place.     Supporters of I-122 have raised only around 300 thousand dollars toward the fight to make higher water quality standards law, so we need as much support as possible.  The Clark Fork-Pend Oreille Coalition recommends writing or contacting the following people to voice your opinion or concerns:  Write to Montana governor Marc Racicot, who currently favors mining and opposes I-122.                              Gov. Marc Racicot                          Capitol Station                          Helena, MT 59620                          (406)444-3111 The Phelps Dodge Mine Co. has applied to the Montana Department of Environmental Quality  (DEQ) for a permit to build this mine.  Write Sandi Olsen at the DEQ.  Ask her to put you on the mailing list for public scoping on the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) that the DEQ will prepare once it deems Phelps Dodge’s application complete.  The findings are what determine whether the state approves or denies this permit.                          Sandi Olsen                          Montana DEQ                          P.O. Box 200901                          Helena, MT 59620                          (406)444-4988   Write a letter to your local newspaper.  Explain that the Blackfoot is too precious to trade for the short-term and questionable benefits from mining.  Remember; this is not just a Montana problem.  We all need to speak out against giant corporations that value their own interests of profit and gain over people and environment!  For more information and updates on this issue, please contact the following:                           Clark Fork- pend Oreille Coalition                       P.O. Box 7593                                                     Missoula, MT 59807                       (406)542-0539                       Montana Council of Trout Unlimited                       P.O Box 7186                       Missoula, MT 59807                       (406)543-0054                       Montana Environmental Information Center                       P.O. Box 1184                       Helena, MT 59624                       (406)443-2520    I am a University of Montana student and am not affiliated with any of the above organizations.  I am just attempting to help get the word out that what may happen if I-122 loses, is the destruction of a river and an eco-system that can not be replaced for decades.   Much of the above information came from articles from the San Francisco Examiner, The Missoulian, the Great Falls Tribune, the Clark Fork-pend Oreille Coalition and my own research and discussions with other sources.                   Craig Murphy

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Question:

Howdy I’ll be moving to Sping Lake N.J. in mid Oct. from southern Alberta where I’ve become quite fond of spectacular fishing. Anyone have a suggestion of where i can continue to get my fix? My e-mail is only go until Oct.7 Thank ya all, Cheers.

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As one resident said last year… the besst fly fishing in NJ is in PA and NY.  But Spring Lake in on the coast, and the other resident didn’t ply the salt.  Great runs of of blues are in the offing.  Check any of the local tackle shops.  Fresh water is mostly up north and west.  Shad and stripers run the Delaware regularly.  Trout are mostly stocked, so listen to the original advise and head to PA and the NY Catskills.  There is a NJ fishing home page, and if you can scroll back into this groups archives it’ll be listed . good luck from Long Island jg

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Question:

thinking of relocating to the charlotte, nc area would like info on the flyfishing in the area or general region, preferances are trout!Willing and able to backpack in,info on this also. thanks much!!

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Join the local TU group (rockey river).  they have all the info you will need. rmurrell

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thinking of relocating to the charlotte, nc area would like info on the flyfishing in the area or general region, preferances are trout!Willing and able to backpack in,info on this also. thanks much!!

Greetings:         I grew up near Charlotte, and went to college there.  You are about 1.5-2 hrs drive from deep mountains (Blue Ridge Parkway, etc.), coming from the north side of the city.  There are a lot of small streams within that 2 hr drive as I recall, and I know some are trout water.  It has been years though since I lived there, and I never did any flyfishing then.  Generally though, the state legislature has been really strong advocates of water quality, trout stocking, and the like.  So you should find some great trout.  Also, for practice, there is a huge reservoir (approx. 600 miles of shoreline) about 30 minutes north of the city, with great panfish and bass.  Also, there are a lot of smaller lakes in the city or surrounding areas, so practice waters will abound.  Good luck. Dan Johnson  

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Question:

I would like you to take note of my new e-address <My old one has expired and I guess I was on a demo period

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For those who couldn’t discern our location-CFS is a San Francisco Bay Area (reputed to have the largest concentration of whitewater boaters in the galaxy)

Hmmm…I wonder where they all are when I’m visiting my family in Berkeley and environs?  Mine is the only whitewater boat I ever see on top of a car or next to a house in any of my family members’ and friends’ neighborhoods…which is fine by me.  Who wants to boat in a crowd anyway? — Chris

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(Robert Mault) writes: For those who couldn’t discern our location-CFS is a San Francisco Bay Area (reputed to have the largest concentration of whitewater boaters in the galaxy) Hmmm…I wonder where they all are when I’m visiting my family in Berkeley and environs?  Mine is the only whitewater boat I ever see on top of a car or next to a house in any of my family members’ and friends’ neighborhoods…which is fine by me.  Who wants to boat in a crowd anyway? — Chris

Ya’ see, we keep our boats inside mosta’ tha time ’cause a all that great Cal sunshine! Ain’t ta’ good for the plastic and glass. I remember livin’ in Charlotte and it wasn’t nothin’ like here. Hey wait, I just saw a boat out in downtown San Jose! He was paddlin’ main street!  ’Kay, sometimes we get a bit a rain… Later, Aaron — "Nothing more is needed to destroy a man, than the conviction that his life’s work is useless."  -Antonin Artaud

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For those who couldn’t discern our location-CFS is a San Francisco Bay Area (reputed to have the largest concentration of whitewater boaters in the galaxy) based organization with a POB & Voice Mail in Marin County and meetings at the University of California on Parnassus Ave. in San Francisco. More Info: (415) 435-7936 and/or read above message. "Go w/the flow"-"Z".

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For those who couldn’t discern our location-CFS is a San Francisco Bay Area (reputed to have the largest concentration of whitewater boaters in the galaxy)

Funny…every diversion that I’m into seems to have the most interest base in the bay area. Flyfishing, Astronomy, and Kayaking all have more participants in the bay area than anywhere else in the country (as a group). Too bad it costs so damn much to live there. Kai

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