Question:

If one hand is clapping, what is the other hand doing to generate the applause?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Like most things in life, as soon as you understand it, it changes. Everything is temporary. Grasshopper, you must understand the sound of one hand clapping . . .

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You don’t want to know about Opie’s sex life.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If one hand is clapping, what is the other hand doing to generate the applause?

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snip Well said Grasshopper. Dave

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy.

Why would you want to understand it, and why do you hate America? Tim

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy.

It has been asked, "How should those who enter The path apply their minds?" All things are originally uncreated And presently undying. Just let your mind be free; You don’t have to restrain it. See directly and hear directly; Come directly and go directly. When you must go, then go; When you must stay, then stay. – Niu-t’ou Hui-chung (683-769)

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I believe that the current minimum length of time required, is from the DEC flyfishing list days to present.  Anything shorter is will result in a less than complete understanding.  One large short cut that has been found to be effective in shortening this is, to killfile any and all posts by muskie and He Who Must Not Be Named (GG,Bamboorods  and his various incarnations). I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy. — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

– Chris Richer chrisratnostormspamdotca

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy.

Who knows?   Best to ignore the perceived personalities, and just read the posts, or not, depending on your current inclination. It is rare to understand anyone, much less an electronic projection of someone, it is easier to simply accept some things. TL MC

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If you ever think you have figured this place out, or have a grip on the relative personas, you should be very concerned about your own mental state. jh

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group?   After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy.

If you ever do understand this place, you will become bored, and wander off. — Charles Davis    K4SWB <I’m The NRA

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy.

Nope, Saturday Night Live characters don’t make it.  Try Monty Python or Firesign Theatre references next time.

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group?   After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy.

About 2 seconds…well, if you mean understanding that, like life its ownself, there are quite a mix of people and personalities, and not all are going to act, write, think, or otherwise do what another might wish or expect…of course, if you mean understand completely each and every post and reply….BWAHAHAHAHA…. HTH, R …who would suggest a firm understanding of the existence of, and a passing familiarity with, Lewis Carroll, HST, Oscar Wilde, Dr. Seuss, satirical comedy, with a special nod to that of America, Canada, and the UK, as well as the works of Gierach, Hill, McManus, Jenkins, and too-long a list of fishing writers, whilst not forgetting Ken Kesey and Donald Segretti…no, it won’t allow for understanding, but it’d help…hey, who says a potatoe is a terrible thing to mind?  Wait a minute…that doesn’t sound quite right…oh, well…please always remember, and don’t ever forget, because I’ll only say this once: HOBGOBLINS!  GREAT, WRITHING, SEETHING HOBGOBLINS!…and they’ve gotten their drunken paws, such as they are, on the controls…

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy.

Should take about four to six hours.  Any more than that, you got a real problem.  How ya doin’ so far? Wolfgang

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy. About 2 seconds…well, if you mean understanding that, like life its ownself, there are quite a mix of people and personalities, and not all are going to act, write, think, or otherwise do what another might wish or expect…of course, if you mean understand completely each and every post and reply….BWAHAHAHAHA…. HTH, R …who would suggest a firm understanding of the existence of, and a passing familiarity with, Lewis Carroll, HST, Oscar Wilde, Dr. Seuss, satirical comedy, with a special nod to that of America, Canada, and the UK, as well as the works of Gierach, Hill, McManus, Jenkins, and too-long a list of fishing writers, whilst not forgetting Ken Kesey and Donald Segretti…no, it won’t allow for understanding, but it’d help…hey, who says a potatoe is a terrible thing to mind?  Wait a minute…that doesn’t sound quite right…oh, well…please always remember, and don’t ever forget, because I’ll only say this once: HOBGOBLINS!  GREAT, WRITHING, SEETHING HOBGOBLINS!…and they’ve gotten their drunken paws, such as they are, on the controls…

Uhh . . .I was gunna come out of lurking . . . . crap . . . couldn’t get past the "potatoe".  . . . geesh! . . . back to the text books . . . I guess . . . or  . . . somethin’. DaveMohnsen Denver

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy.

That’s just it CaveXman.  Don’t try to figure out anything.  Everyone just leaves it to Darwin.  Now, figure that one out. George Gehrke "the gent with keyboard button cuff links"

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy. That’s just it CaveXman.  Don’t try to figure out anything.  Everyone just leaves it to Darwin.  Now, figure that one out.

Darwin?  Isn’t he the guy inside the fish sign on cars? — remove all x and y’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

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Like most things in life, as soon as you understand it, it changes. Everything is temporary.

Grasshopper, you must understand the sound of one hand clapping . . .

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Like most things in life, as soon as you understand it, it changes. Everything is temporary. Grasshopper, you must understand the sound of one hand clapping . . .

…clapping you upside the head, as you get bitch-slapped by somebody who took umbrage at something you posted… Kevin

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Doh!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Like most things in life, as soon as you understand it, it changes. Everything is temporary. Grasshopper, you must understand the sound of one hand clapping . . . …clapping you upside the head, as you get bitch-slapped by somebody who took umbrage at something you posted… Kevin

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Like most things in life, as soon as you understand it, it changes. Everything is temporary. Grasshopper, you must understand the sound of one hand clapping . . . …clapping you upside the head, as you get bitch-slapped by somebody who took umbrage at something you posted…

Shut up you pompous, hypocritical sissy. p.s. Do I know you?

Response:

I believe that the current minimum length of time required, is from the DEC flyfishing list days to present.  Anything shorter is will result in a less than complete understanding.  One large short cut that has been found to be effective in shortening this is, to killfile any and all posts by muskie and He Who Must Not Be Named (GG,Bamboorods  and his various incarnations).

Chris you were a DEC Flyfishing notes guy? Don’t remember you… Flyfish AKA Dave the ordealmaster

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Like most things in life, as soon as you understand it, it changes. Everything is temporary.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy. About 2 seconds…well, if you mean understanding that, like life its ownself, there are quite a mix of people and personalities, and not all are going to act, write, think, or otherwise do what another might wish or expect…of course, if you mean understand completely each and every post and reply….BWAHAHAHAHA…. HTH, R …who would suggest a firm understanding of the existence of, and a passing familiarity with, Lewis Carroll, HST, Oscar Wilde, Dr. Seuss, satirical comedy, with a special nod to that of America, Canada, and the UK, as well as the works of Gierach, Hill, McManus, Jenkins, and too-long a list of fishing writers, whilst not forgetting Ken Kesey and Donald Segretti…no, it won’t allow for understanding, but it’d help…hey, who says a potatoe is a terrible thing to mind?  Wait a minute…that doesn’t sound quite right…oh, well…please always remember, and don’t ever forget, because I’ll only say this once: HOBGOBLINS!  GREAT, WRITHING, SEETHING HOBGOBLINS!…and they’ve gotten their drunken paws, such as they are, on the controls… Uhh . . .I was gunna come out of lurking . . . . crap . . . couldn’t get past the "potatoe".  . . . geesh! . . . back to the text books . . . I guess . . . or  . . . somethin’. DaveMohnsen Denver

Hey, a polite newcomer…see, you never know what’s gonna happen next…welcome aboard, and here’s an explanation…it’s really a really obscure reference to some stuff Dan Quayle said/did…remember the "potatoe" and "a waste is terrible thing to mind" stuff?   Well, it was my decidedly indirect way of implying that a fair amount of both substantive and trivial off-topic knowledge is helpful, if one wishes to engage in that aspect of ROFF, such as the political, er, discussions/riots.   As to the rest, it’s simply an-out-of-the-norm way of saying "hey, ROFF can be a strange place at times, and often as not, NOBODY understands everything," with some TV show catch phrases tossed in (see above).  Also remember (or learn) that ROFF, as a whole, almost never completely agrees on what’s funny, not funny, (in)appropriate, sick, SPAM, or much of anything else save two, or maybe even just one: we all seem to have a love of (fly) fishing (although what exactly defines "fly fishing" is often a source of disagreement, so maybe even that doesn’t even count), and on some level, like reading ROFF… TC, R

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group?   After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy. — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

Question:

The previous posts on the RRR provided a great description of the weather, the river and the activity.  This was my first smallmouth fishing opportunity as well as my first clave. Until the clave, most of my fly fishing experience was limited to largemouth and bluegills in ponds, lakes, and slow moving rivers. The clave was an outstanding introduction to fishing for smallmouths.  It was also the first time I fished a river like the Rapp – and really learned to appreciate a wading staff. It was hot and there were a number of challenges, but it was also a great learning experience.  With some coaching from Wayne and Frank Reid, I caught my first smallies, had the opportunity to try out a float tube and a kayak, and to learn a lot about heat stress.  Special thanks to Allan Epps for his help with the kayak. Bottom line – I really enjoyed the chance to meet and fish with the other clave attendees, a great group.  Looking forward to the next time – maybe trout? Thanks Al Poklemba

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Al,    Glad you have you along.  That was the "newbie initiation" clave.  Hot weather, humidity, low water, high water, tough fishing, all designed to weed out the chaff.  Depending on your point of view, it will only get better.       Frank Reid

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(nice TR snipped) Thanks Al Poklemba

Al, it was our pleasure to fish with such a gentleman.  I have some great small stream jaunts for Brookies in the SNP  or Mossy Creek for a spring creek experience, and the Jackson River for a big trout water experience.  Just let me know and we’ll hit the creeks! Wayne to fish is human…to release Divine!

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Al,   Glad you have you along.  That was the "newbie initiation" clave.  Hot weather, humidity, low water, high water, tough fishing, all designed to weed out the chaff.  Depending on your point of view, it will only get better.      Frank Reid

smallie or two, what with the tough fishing and all.  Looking forward to seeing you next year on the Rapp. Frank (chaff) Church in Elkhart, IN bassbugr AT yahoo dot com "jes’ blowin’ in the wind"

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Hey Frank baby, what’s up with the Mr. G. intro? Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Al,   Glad you have you along.  That was the "newbie initiation" clave.  Hot weather, humidity, low water, high water, tough fishing, all designed to weed out the chaff.  Depending on your point of view, it will only get better.      Frank Reid smallie or two, what with the tough fishing and all.  Looking forward to seeing you next year on the Rapp. Frank (chaff) Church in Elkhart, IN bassbugr AT yahoo dot com "jes’ blowin’ in the wind"

Response:

Question:

So Charlie, I’d be making that H&H, you need the length for mending and for keeping the fly out of the crap behind you, on the backcast.

Thanks, I’ll get the parts ordered. — Charlie…

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Charlie Choc: I’d need a 6wt (looking for an excuse to build a rod, actually<g). —

Build.  Build.  Build.  Tell the OWMBO that I said so. Dave Dave LaCourse

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Uh, I hit send before I was finished.  More to follow. All of the fish I caught were on a 9 foot four weight with WF4F line.  A  6 weight would be ideal for lobbing streamers (help me here, Peter C.), but a 5 should work just as well.  And bring a four for nymphing and dry fly work.  Salmon Fly was using his own boo rod — prettiest damn thing you ever saw, and he was giving it a work-out.  I believe it was a 4 weight Dave LaCourse

Dave n’ Charlie Just fired up the laptop in North Bay before I start with their NT conversion (3 people branch – won’t take long) and I caught your plea for help.  <g I’m taking a 9 1/2′ 6 wt. for slinging big streamers into second current, off that big rock at the end of the island.  I’ll also be bringing a short 6 wt. and a 9′ 4 wt. and perhaps one other 4 wt. So Charlie, I’d be making that H&H, you need the length for mending and for keeping the fly out of the crap behind you, on the backcast. Peter

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[snip report] Nice report Dave. Makes me think I need to start building a rod to use there in September. I’m thinking about a 9 1/2′ 6wt from an H&H blank. Think that’ll be useful for streamer fishing? (I’ll be bringing along 3, 4 and 5wt rods as well). Will that be enough firepower or will I need something heavier? — Charlie…

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Nice report Dave. Makes me think I need to start building a rod to use there in September. I’m thinking about a 9 1/2′ 6wt from an H&H blank. Think that’ll be useful for streamer fishing? (I’ll be bringing along 3, 4 and 5wt rods as well). Will that be enough firepower or will I need something heavier? — Charlie…

Uh, I hit send before I was finished.  More to follow. All of the fish I caught were on a 9 foot four weight with WF4F line.  A  6 weight would be ideal for lobbing streamers (help me here, Peter C.), but a 5 should work just as well.  And bring a four for nymphing and dry fly work.  Salmon Fly was using his own boo rod — prettiest damn thing you ever saw, and he was giving it a work-out.  I believe it was a 4 weight Dave LaCourse

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All of the fish I caught were on a 9 foot four weight with WF4F line.  A  6 weight would be ideal for lobbing streamers (help me here, Peter C.), but a 5 should work just as well.  And bring a four for nymphing and dry fly work.  

OK, like I said I’ll have 3, 4 and 5wt rods along, just wondered if I’d need a 6wt (looking for an excuse to build a rod, actually<g). — Charlie…

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Jo, Henry and I arrived at Lakewood just in time for lunch on Monday.  I was a bit alarmed to hear that there were 15 people at the "island", but even more alarmed when told there were 35 there the day before!!!!!  I opted for the dam. Big mistake.  The dam should be easy to fish at 1300 cfs, but the new dam keeper just can’t get it right.  I had the place all to myself, but fishing was very difficult.  No rises.  Water temp at 51.  No hatches.  So, nymphs (or if Peter Charles streamers) were the order of the day.  I went through every nymph pattern I had and never got a strike.  Nothing!  I tied on a Prince as a dropper from a GRW and finally started to catch fish.  No brookies — only salmon 15 – 17 inches — and I ended the day with 3 fish. Tuesday found me at the "island" bright and early.  Two locals in a canoe lobbing big streamers in the 1st and 2nd currents.  I walked up to the wing dam pool and looked around for a few minutes.  No surface activity, but there were a few Henricksons coming off, but no fish rising to them.  I prefer fishing dries on this river, so I tied on a #16 Adams parachute.  Second cast into the riffles coming out of the wing dam and WHAM, a big brookie hit it.  I managed to land the 18 inch fish without a net, something I am not very good at. Beautiful color and it fought like hell.   I figured this was my day.  Wrong!  I fished for 4 more hours and never caught a thing.  But I was not alone.  I returned after lunch and the six or so people that were there had left, probably in disgust. I continued fishing the wing dam pool and managed another brookie about 15 inches, and a couple of salmon about 12 inches, all on prince nymphs. Wednesday, back to the "island" bright and early.  No one there.  I fished the wing dam pool again with limited results.  One of the guests at Lakewood walked his canoe up the rapids of the 2nd current and anchored in the fast water at the head of the pool.  In less that 10 minutes, he was into a helluva big fish.  When it broke off, he turned to me and put his hands about two feet apart.  "Honest", he said.  <g  Ten minutes later he was into another big one and managed to net all 23 inche of it.  It was the biggest brookie I had seen come out of those waters – not so much in length, but in girth too — it measured 16 inches in front of the dorsal.  I have forgotten the formula, but looking at that fish it must have weighed in at 6 pounds.  The irony of it all — that was his first and *only* fish of the day.    I landed (with help from my net!) a 20 inch brookie taken on a BWO emerger. The big brookies were not at the wingdam riffles like they normally are, but farther out in the pool.  They were porpoising, eating at what seemed a leisurely pace.  Every once in awhile, one would come straight up like he was trying to stand on his tail.  But there was very little splashing or noise — you wouldn’t know they were feeding unless you saw them.  And no one saw them except me.  Well, at least for awhile, anyway.  I threw every imaginable caddis emerger I could find in my fly box and they ignored everying.  I finally saw a flying insect and thought it to bea BWO.  Hmmmm. Not caddis.  Mayflies.  I tied on a BWO emerger that I bought several years ago on the advice of some "knowing" friend.  I bought a dozen and never used them — I *think* they are called RS2 or something like that.  Not being much of a mayfly fisher, I had completely forgotten them until now.  Well, I cast the damn thing out there and couldn’t see it in the moving water.  There was a rise where my fly *should* have been, but when  I set the hook, I had nothing.  So, I tied on a #14 Goddard Caddis and used the emerger as a dropper.  Second cast and the Goddard disappeared three seconds after it hit the water.  I set the hook Dave LaCourse

Response:

Question:

Opie writes: Ok, I concede redeye gravy an grits. Opie

Heeeehaaaaa.  A yankee teachin’ a pooh boy how to eat!  Heyyyahhh.  Georgia ice cream!!!!!!   Course, a good vodka to help it along is always welcome.  <g Dave LaCourse

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Jeff,   Those southern guys put gravy on everything.

They just *told* you it was gravy<g. — Charlie…

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Ernie Harrison writes: Jeff,   Those southern guys put gravy on everything. Ernie Hell, there are few things better than good old country ham, red eye gravy and grits (good grits — none of that instant stuff). Dave, whose marriage to two southern belles is obviously showing.

Huh?  I thought they only did that in Utah.  Hey Verrrrrnnnn!

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Jeff, You obviously need a bit more Southern acculturation. Opie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you fellas can’t handle *Grits,* just leave them to us real southern folk. Being a northern guy, I didn’t understand the problem with grits.  Ya see, I thought they were Cream O Wheat, so I just put brown sugar and milk on em.  I always thought grits were fine until I heard about stuff like gravy and butter and salt on em!!! — Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

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Jeff,    Those southern guys put gravy on everything. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being a northern guy, I didn’t understand the problem with grits.  Ya see, I thought they were Cream O Wheat, so I just put brown sugar and milk on em.  I always thought grits were fine until I heard about stuff like gravy and butter and salt on em!!! Jeff

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Ernie Harrison writes: Jeff,   Those southern guys put gravy on everything. Ernie

Hell, there are few things better than good old country ham, red eye gravy and grits (good grits — none of that instant stuff). Dave, whose marriage to two southern belles is obviously showing.

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Except *GRITS.* Opie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff,    Those southern guys put gravy on everything. Ernie Being a northern guy, I didn’t understand the problem with grits.  Ya see, I thought they were Cream O Wheat, so I just put brown sugar and milk on em.  I always thought grits were fine until I heard about stuff like gravy and butter and salt on em!!! Jeff

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Ok, I concede redeye gravy an grits. Opie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ernie Harrison writes: Jeff,   Those southern guys put gravy on everything. Ernie Hell, there are few things better than good old country ham, red eye gravy and grits (good grits — none of that instant stuff). Dave, whose marriage to two southern belles is obviously showing.

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If you fellas can’t handle *Grits,* just leave them to us real southern folk.

Being a northern guy, I didn’t understand the problem with grits.  Ya see, I thought they were Cream O Wheat, so I just put brown sugar and milk on em.  I always thought grits were fine until I heard about stuff like gravy and butter and salt on em!!! — Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I look forward to the Times on Wednesday morning, more so than any other morning of the week, because of the recipes in the Living Arts section. I was shocked, stunned and disgusted to find in today’s paper recipes for…I can barely bring myself to type it Ohmygawd. Grits … in the Times. Shoot me now, I’ve seen it all. Jeffie can have my Budweiser and Waldo my Django Rheinhart records. http://www.nytimes.com/library/dining/042600grits.html — Ken Fortenberry

The way you scoffed buscuits and gravy at Tootsie’s I’d always thought you to be a grits fan.  Thought you’d be pleased when the Times ran it. Don’t that beat all . . . Peter

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If they called it polenta would you be so upset? It’s essentially the same thing. Peter G. Aitken

damn I thought grits was cream of wheat with sand in it…. Flyfish

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If they called it polenta would you be so upset? It’s essentially the same thing. Peter G. Aitken damn I thought grits was cream of wheat with sand in it…. Flyfish

Nah – couldn’t be – cream of wheat and sand actually has FLAVOR!

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Polenta is made from whole stone ground cornmeal. That would imply some flavor to be had. Grits are made from hominy. That’s what is left after soaking corn in a lye solution and removing the bran or kernel. The original "Better eating through chemistry!". I’m from down south and I never could get used them myself. MT

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If they called it polenta would you be so upset? It’s essentially the same thing. Peter G. Aitken

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Buy a good set of gravel guards, keeps the grit out.

I got the neoprene ones with the velcro closures.  Real easy to put on and very effective for keeping grits out but they also make breathing somewhat problematic.

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If you fellas can’t handle *Grits,* just leave them to us real southern folk.  Cream-O-Shit, some comparison! Opie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Buy a good set of gravel guards, keeps the grit out. I got the neoprene ones with the velcro closures.  Real easy to put on and very effective for keeping grits out but they also make breathing somewhat problematic.

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If you fellas can’t handle *Grits,* just leave them to us real southern folk.  Cream-O-Shit, some comparison! Opie

you’re damn tootin! thank god i had me a plateful this morning, o/w i wouldn’t have been able to land that big ‘ole ‘bow from yer drift did you and jeffie (who despises grits, but loves marshmellows) get any more fish after i left? i caught a couple of small brookies twitchin’ the fly back downstream on the way out. waldo

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damn I thought grits was cream of wheat with sand in it…. Flyfish

When I was stationed at Ft. Jackson SC back in the 60’s they would occasionally serve some white stuff for breakfast. If a northener asked what it was the cook would tell him cream of wheat and of course the reply to a southerner was grits. Half the mess hall would put milk & suger on it, the other half salt & pepper. Thank God I was cadre and didn’t have to eat anything I couldn’t identify.      Jim * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Walt, I can’t speak for Jeff, but my life has no meaning.  Does that answer your question? Opie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you fellas can’t handle *Grits,* just leave them to us real southern folk.  Cream-O-Shit, some comparison! Opie you’re damn tootin! thank god i had me a plateful this morning, o/w i wouldn’t have been able to land that big ‘ole ‘bow from yer drift did you and jeffie (who despises grits, but loves marshmellows) get any more fish after i left? i caught a couple of small brookies twitchin’ the fly back downstream on the way out. waldo

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Buy a good set of gravel guards, keeps the grit out. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Walt, I can’t speak for Jeff, but my life has no meaning.  Does that answer your question? Opie

yeah… it tells me ya got in the cooler waldo

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I look forward to the Times on Wednesday morning, more so than any other morning of the week, because of the recipes in the Living Arts section. I was shocked, stunned and disgusted to find in today’s paper recipes for…I can barely bring myself to type it Ohmygawd. Grits … in the Times. Shoot me now, I’ve seen it all. Jeffie can have my Budweiser and Waldo my Django Rheinhart records. http://www.nytimes.com/library/dining/042600grits.html — Ken Fortenberry

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I was shocked, stunned and disgusted to find in today’s paper recipes for…I can barely bring myself to type it Ohmygawd. Grits … in the Times. Ken Fortenberry

GRITS!  Wonderful!  Why Ken; don’t you know grits are the closest thing you can have to nothing and still have something??!!  They are the base requirement to serving red-eye gravey! They are also not off-topic to fly fishing.  A good breakfast of grits fortifies the intrepid fly fisher-person for the day with an extra fast energy supply from the starches, sticks with you to aswage hunger, and passes along slowly enough to keep you from having to peel out of your waders around 10:30. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I look forward to the Times on Wednesday morning, more so than any other morning of the week, because of the recipes in the Living Arts section. I was shocked, stunned and disgusted to find in today’s paper recipes for…I can barely bring myself to type it Ohmygawd. Grits … in the Times. Shoot me now, I’ve seen it all. Jeffie can have my Budweiser and Waldo my Django Rheinhart records. http://www.nytimes.com/library/dining/042600grits.html — Ken Fortenberry

um…ken, i think you transposed…no way i’m takin the budweiser.  give it to waldo, he’ll drink anything.  but the records might work. jeff

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If they called it polenta would you be so upset? It’s essentially the same thing. Peter G. Aitken

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I look forward to the Times on Wednesday morning, more so than any other morning of the week, because of the recipes in the Living Arts section. I was shocked, stunned and disgusted to find in today’s paper recipes for…I can barely bring myself to type it Ohmygawd. Grits … in the Times. Shoot me now, I’ve seen it all. Jeffie can have my Budweiser and Waldo my Django Rheinhart records. http://www.nytimes.com/library/dining/042600grits.html — Ken Fortenberry

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If they called it polenta would you be so upset? It’s essentially the same thing.

Right, and a lump of coal and a diamond are essentially the same thing. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Question:

I came up with a great new sport. It makes Fishing look like kids stuff 1) Get up into an airplane Piper cub will do and fly over someones ranch where they have cows. Get a large grappling hook and sharpen all the barbs. fly down towards the cows and swing the hook behind them. If you hook one ty it off onto one of the wing struts and gain altitude. I call this "beefing"

Response:

Uh oh – beware the Noll troll who wrote, in part: … It makes Fishing look like kids stuff.

I call this "beefing." << -tran

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I came up with a great new sport. It makes Fishing look like kids stuff 1) Get up into an airplane Piper cub will do and fly over someones ranch where they have cows. Get a large grappling hook and sharpen all the barbs. fly down towards the cows and swing the hook behind them. If you hook one ty it off onto one of the wing struts and gain altitude. I call this "beefing" Hey Nimrod! Here’s a novel idea! Forget the cows!!!  Try doing this on jetskiers! A target that is moving would take more skill. Cows would be far too easy anyone could do that! Your going to have to work on a new name though…….Bummer !      Steve

Right on!!!

Response:

Question:

Karl Kortmeier, owner of Athens Fly Fishing, recently built one. He might have some advice for you. His shop number is 706-369-1797. Steve

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[snip] ’scuse my ignorance, but what is a driftboat? Are you being a smart-ass?

Er, why should Bob, or anyone in a PADDLING newsgroup, know about a specialized kind of ROWBOAT?  Especially since Bob has a Mindspring address, which is in the Southeast where oar rigs are rare because those sweeps represent a serious hazard to paddlers on our small, crowded Appalachian rivers. — Richard Hopley, concise and to the point, as always. OC-1; Rockville, Maryland, USA, BBM; (301) 330-8265 Monocacy Canoe Club, Blue Ridge Voyageurs, Canoe Cruisers’ Ass’n, Greater Baltimore CC, Coastal Canoeists, Rhode Island Canoe/Kayak Ass’n, Carolina CC, Tennessee Scenic Rivers Ass’n, ACA, and AWA Note 1: To send me eMail, remove ".NoSpam" from my address Note 2: Sometimes I just forget to type that smiley-face emoticon. Note 3: Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock’n'Roll.

Response:

Another option at a cheaper price would be to contact Tom Counseller in Cedar Grove, IN.  He makes fiberglass dories(same as a drift boat, I think) and I have taken several of them down the Grand Canyon.  He made many of the boats you see on the New River.  I don’t know his prices exactly, but I can guarantee you could get a boat and trailer for less than $5000 from him.  Let me know if you would like the phone number. Dave Bassage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip Bob. a drift boat is a rowing dory (lots of rocker, high sides with a raised bow and stern) designed originally to trout and salmon fish the fast water rivers out west. snip some more SYOTR Larry Thanks Larry. I’m calling Hiwassee Outfitters Monday. I’ve got the number. I tried to buy one of their used boats a couple of years ago. Their business was thriving at the time and they weren’t interested. Recently there was a flurry of fishing guides in that area with driftboats. The time may be right. I really would prefer a hardside boat to an inflatable. If all else fails, I may order a kit from Tatman Boats in Oregon. Thanks again.  Steve

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I am looking to purchase a driftboat. I live in Georgia and would consider driving 500 miles max to get one.  If you know of any for sale in this area please advise. Thanks.  Steve

Response:

I am looking to purchase a driftboat. I live in Georgia and would consider driving 500 miles max to get one.  If you know of any for sale in this area please advise. Thanks.  Steve

’scuse my ignorance, but what is a driftboat? To reply by email, remove "mapson"from my edress.

Response:

I am looking to purchase a driftboat. I live in Georgia and would consider driving 500 miles max to get one.  If you know of any for sale in this area please advise. Thanks.  Steve ’scuse my ignorance, but what is a driftboat?

Are you being a smart-ass?   Cheers, Roger

Response:

I am looking to purchase a driftboat. I live in Georgia and would consider driving 500 miles max Thanks.  Steve ’scuse my ignorance, but what is a driftboat?

Bob. a drift boat is a rowing dory (lots of rocker, high sides with a raised bow and stern) designed originally to trout and salmon fish the fast water rivers out west. They are also used to run big water rivers like the New and the Grand Canyon. They are becoming increasingly popular as fishing platforms in the Southeast US tailwater fisheries. Steve, the Trout guides around the Hiwassee River in Tennessee (USA) are using Drifters these days. Try Hiwassee Outfitter (sorry, no phone #), they have them for the guide service. Are you looking for a fishing boat or something to run whitewater. Take a look at inflatable "drifters" such as the Aire Super Puma or NRS Slalom. Considerably cheaper and you don’t have to trailer them. Last time I looked at a Drift Boat they were going for about $5000!!! SYOTR Larry

Response:

snip Bob. a drift boat is a rowing dory (lots of rocker, high sides with a raised bow and stern) designed originally to trout and salmon fish the fast water rivers out west. snip some more SYOTR Larry

Thanks Larry. I’m calling Hiwassee Outfitters Monday. I’ve got the number. I tried to buy one of their used boats a couple of years ago. Their business was thriving at the time and they weren’t interested. Recently there was a flurry of fishing guides in that area with driftboats. The time may be right. I really would prefer a hardside boat to an inflatable. If all else fails, I may order a kit from Tatman Boats in Oregon. Thanks again.  Steve

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Question:

Need info on how to access the river below Brockaway Mills.

Response:

Rich, I have never fished it myself…my buddies tell me below Brockway is better for smallies later in the season than trout.  That  not withstanding , the best advice for access is to call the warden for that area.  His name is Philip Howland and his number is 802 885 4975.  I am certain he can tell the easiest and most productive area in which to access.  Have fun. James James Ehlers Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service 1997 Guide of the Year Vermont Fly Fishing, Hunting, River and Woodland Outings http://pobox.com/~uncle

Response:

Hi, My sister lives near Ascutney, and I fished the Williams a year ago. We went in near the power plant (dam) at Herrick’s Cove (I think that’s the name), and since the power co. had been letting no water out yet, it was high and quite good fishing. – went all over the cove area, and actually you could go right to the Conneticutt. Directions – take #5 hwy to the jct with 103, sign says NE power picnic area – boat access is there. If I remeber correctly, the rest of the water between the Mill and the cove was a series of small flatwater pools with lots of shallows in between – but then I was there in August ! Bill Need info on how to access the river below Brockaway Mills.

– Bill Curry Tight Lines Guide Service Lockeport, Nova Scotia, Canada http://www.tightlines.ns.ca

Response:

Question:

<SNIP are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit. I would be real surprised if Montana planted any fish.  Because of the good population of brown trout, which are resistant to WD, they still have fish in the infected rivers.  Besides,wasn’t Montana the first state to figure out that people will travel long distances to catch "wild" fish?  

   I don’t mean to change the subject, but the original question has recently become even more intriguing than when I originally posed it.  The Yellowstone is the last wild river in the lower 48, but that doesn’t seem to be so important now that a few springcreeks have succumbed to what wild rivers naturally do on occasion (flood and change that is).  Stocking wild rivers when the rainbows disappear is similar to damming wild rivers when the largely man-made springcreeks disappear.  They are both justified with tourist dollars.  Of course it remains to be seen what they will actually do on the Yellowstone.  I am a cynic but I hope I am wrong. -al

Response:

<SNIP are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.

I would be real surprised if Montana planted any fish.  Because of the good population of brown trout, which are resistant to WD, they still have fish in the infected rivers.  Besides,wasn’t Montana the first state to figure out that people will travel long distances to catch "wild" fish?   Do you think people would travel long distances to catch hatchery planters??  I can see the ads now: "Come to Big Sky Country to catch our imitation rainbows reared in concrete runways by the thousands and behaviourly modified with regular feedings of Purina Trout Chow (floating variety – a reddish brown color).  The "hot" fly this week (and every week) – either a brown Goddard Caddis with the hackle and antenna removed or a size10 brown beetle.  If the fish aren’t rising just throw out a handful of pea gravel (sounds like PTC hitting the water).  Guaranteed to make them rise (and since your fly is the only thing floating they’ll hit it thinking it’s PTC).  Come on down!"  I guarantee you I wouldn’t and I don’t think very many people would – and they know that.                                         Just my .02                                                 Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I have a few questions about whirling disease I hope someone knowledgeable can answer.  Any realistic estimates on how long it would take a river that has been hit hard by the disease (the Madison for example) to recover naturally without stocking?  Years?  Decades?  Never? Will the parasite die off after a period with no juvenile rainbows, making the river suitable for repopulation?  Can a significant portion of fry survive to sexual maturity, or does reproduction halt completely?  It seems to me that by the time the river recovers to a point that it is suitable for a rainbow population again that the surviving trout, if any, would be too old to spawn.   Let’s suppose that it is only a matter of time before all the wild rainbow fisheries in the west are affected.  While it is awful to imagine, it seems realistic unless we find a way to kill the parasite.  After all, rivers that are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.   I hope this initiates some useful discussion. -al

I am not an expert, but I have read that whirling disease has been around for over 200 years since it was first discovered in Europe.  So our environment has been successfully dealing with it for quiet a while. It can be spread by man and animals, so if fishing were banned, it would still migrate to new streams. I was fortunate enough to talk to a very experinced guide in Montana a few weeks ago.  His opinion on the disease is that its effects are minimal, and that the low count of frey is due to the extended fishing season ( to bring in the tourist bucks) and the trampling of the spawning beds by well intentioned fishermen. H.Payne

Response:

The spring creeks aren’t largely man made…they had allways existed and had fallen into disrepair from years of neglect and cattle grazing…they have been rehabilitated by man…veggitation restored, silt removed, etc…I will be very surprised if Montana increases it’s stocking program…there is no need…it’s so ironic that EVERYONE is SO concerned with whirling disease when the biggest threat to our Montana fisheries remains water quality….stop the Seven-Up Pete mine on the Blackfoot…restore the pre 1994 water quality standards!!!

Response:

These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion…

I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Mitch

Response:

Al,    The discussions I’ve monitored predict that a certain percentage of the population will be resistant to WD.  These fish will reproduce, passing on their resistance.  After a few generations, equilibrium will be restored.  If we leave nature alone, she’ll do what she has done for million of years– repair and improve herself. But then, my boss calls me a stary-eyed optomist! Tight lines, Charley

Jonathan Cook’s response has indicated -and there is evidence from several Eastern and Western states to substantiate this- that the presence of the parasite does not immediately lead to the symptoms of infections, eg skeletal deformations, ‘whirling’, black tail.  Whether or not this means that a resident population has developed an immune response to the parasite is still debatable.  Published reports indicate that there is some antibody response to the presence of the parasite, however this may or may not lead to removal of the parasite by known immune response pathways. The primary reason whirling disease is so devastating is the attack on skelatal material that has not ossified.  So survival/morbidity depends on the presence of the parasite, its apparent mandatory passage through the intermediate host, the Tubifex worm, the release of the infectious stage of the parasite, and attachment to the host fish–all at a time when the fish has not undergone ossification of the site of attack (the spine and some head skeleton regions).  So survival is dependent on the life histories of the parasite, its intermediate host and the main host. All of the fish so far discussed are at risk, although there is a gradation that increases from browns to cutts to rainbows.  Someone rightly pointed out that the primary target for the present are rainbows which are the progeny of planted fish – I believe but am not sure that Montana stopped planting fish in rivers in the late 70’s, but continue to do so in lakes in the state.  I am more concerned on the fate of native, wild fish (eg the cutts) than those that have been moved from other locations (the rainbow and brown). Don

Response:

I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? My guess is that yes, this is a big factor in susceptibility. A high gradient stream doesn’t play good host to the tubifex worm, and is less fertile in general. Thus, the WD spore concentration will be less during the ossification period of the young trout’s skeleton. More trout live, and the overall affect is less. I’d say a good example of this is the Big Thompson. Very little effect.

Or the Roaring Fork ? TimW

Response:

These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion… I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Mitch

One of the stages in the WD parasites’ life is in the tubifex worm. These worms live in the mud on the bottom of a river. A large elevation drop generally means faster water, and no mud accumulation. No mud, no worms, no place for the WD parasite to accumulate. Also faster water means a dead rotting WD infested carcass doesn’t go to the bottom to spread it’s spores. It gets swept away. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion… I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Mitch One of the stages in the WD parasites’ life is in the tubifex worm. These worms live in the mud on the bottom of a river. A large elevation drop generally means faster water, and no mud accumulation. No mud, no worms, no place for the WD parasite to accumulate. Also faster water means a dead rotting WD infested carcass doesn’t go to the bottom to spread it’s spores. It gets swept away.

Does this latter posit a positive argument for catch and kill ? TimW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion… I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Mitch One of the stages in the WD parasites’ life is in the tubifex worm. These worms live in the mud on the bottom of a river. A large elevation drop generally means faster water, and no mud accumulation. No mud, no worms, no place for the WD parasite to accumulate. Also faster water means a dead rotting WD infested carcass doesn’t go to the bottom to spread it’s spores. It gets swept away. Does this latter posit a positive argument for catch and kill ? TimW

Not really.  ’Cuz the fish killed by WD are fry that you wouldn’t catch anyway.  ’Course, I suppose larger fish could be host to it without being killed by it.  But, taking all the fish out of the system to save the system, somehow, seems short-sighted to me. Tight lines and straight fish, Charley

Response:

. Most hard-hit waters are tailwaters — no runoff, constant temps, and lots of moss and mud for tubifex worms (the other host).

Hi Jon, and now Gas Bubble disease can be added to the list of problems in tailwaters. A recent study on the Colorado River states:         …Trout sampled exhibited higher symptoms of both whirling disease         and gas bubble trauma in stream sections with high saturation levels         than those with lower saturation levels. These results indicate a         combined effect of whirling disease and gas bubble trauma is affecting         young -of-the-year rainbow and brown trout in the study area. regards, Mike

Response:

Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it. Darryl Hayashida

how do you distinguish a hatchery fish from a wild one ? just curious (i’m a strict C&R guy) — phone +303-492-3504       |  Dept. of Chemistry & Biochemistry fax +303-492-5894         |  University of Colorado at Boulder

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I have a few questions about whirling disease I hope someone knowledgeable can answer.  Any realistic estimates on how long it would take a river that has been hit hard by the disease (the Madison for example) to recover naturally without stocking?  Years?  Decades?  Never? Will the parasite die off after a period with no juvenile rainbows, making the river suitable for repopulation?  Can a significant portion of fry survive to sexual maturity, or does reproduction halt completely?  It seems to me that by the time the river recovers to a point that it is suitable for a rainbow population again that the surviving trout, if any, would be too old to spawn.    Are steelhead susceptible?    Let’s suppose that it is only a matter of time before all the wild rainbow fisheries in the west are affected.  While it is awful to imagine, it seems realistic unless we find a way to kill the parasite.  After all, rivers that are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.    I hope this initiates some useful discussion. -al

Al,         The discussions I’ve monitored predict that a certain percentage of the population will be resistant to WD.  These fish will reproduce, passing on their resistance.  After a few generations, equilibrium will be restored.  If we leave nature alone, she’ll do what she has done for million of years– repair and improve herself. But then, my boss calls me a stary-eyed optomist! Tight lines, Charley

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it. Darryl Hayashida how do you distinguish a hatchery fish from a wild one ? just curious (i’m a strict C&R guy) In the area I fish in, a stocker is a 10 to 12 inch rainbow with tattered fins and a dark almost black back.They all look the same, as if they were cranked out by an assembly line. The fins are tattered because they grow up packed into a concrete pen where their fins rub against the walls and each other. The hatchery fish also tend to nip each others fins. Probably out of irritation or maybe lack of anything else to do. Their backs are black because the have no way to get out of the sun and fish skin reacts to strong sunlight just like human skin does – increased melanin, or in other words, a suntan. Darryl Hayashida

Here in Oregon, the hatchery workers clip the adipose fin (the one located on the back behind the main (dorsal?) fin). Andy Clark Albany, OR

Response:

Text deleted… In the end it will be the hatchery raised WD exposed fish that has the best chance of survival and passing on resistance to its offspring. regards, Mike

We are talking about two different animals here. In my disscusions with fishery biologists in the area I fish in, I found out that the hatchery fish have a very low survival rate. On the order of 2 to 3 percent. One of the reasons is that the "catchable" size stocked is 10 to 12 inches. Any fish raised for the better portion of a year on Purina Trout Chow isn’t going to recognize a caddis or mayfly or a nymph as food. All I’m saying is in my area stockers are going to die anyway, so you might as well keep them. This is probably different in your area. Also, the area I fish in has had WD for decades. It still has wild trout. They seem to be resistant, and C&R seems to be a positive factor, preserving resistant fish to breed, not a cause of spreading WD. Go ahead and post your rebuttal, and I will read it, but this debate will probably go on for years and we, at least I, can’t do a darned thing about WD. So, if you don’t mind, I respectfully bow out of this discussion. I only entered into it again to answer the question on why it appears steep stream gradients don’t have a WD problem. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it. Darryl Hayashida how do you distinguish a hatchery fish from a wild one ? just curious (i’m a strict C&R guy)

In the area I fish in, a stocker is a 10 to 12 inch rainbow with tattered fins and a dark almost black back.They all look the same, as if they were cranked out by an assembly line. The fins are tattered because they grow up packed into a concrete pen where their fins rub against the walls and each other. The hatchery fish also tend to nip each others fins. Probably out of irritation or maybe lack of anything else to do. Their backs are black because the have no way to get out of the sun and fish skin reacts to strong sunlight just like human skin does – increased melanin, or in other words, a suntan. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As far as a hatrchery fish goes, if the fish was raised in a WD negative hatchery  (or born in the wild) and placed in a WD positive stream it would never exhibit  signs of WD but could carry millions of spores until its death. But a fish raised in a "lightly infected" WD positve hatchery may only be exposed to a few spores,  at which time the fish becomes immune to WD, and the spore load never increases. Which fish should is the healthiest? In the end it will be the hatchery raised WD exposed fish that has the best chance of survival and passing on resistance to its offspring. regards, Mike

Now, Mike.  Building strawmen arguments and then knocking them down is a crude and not very supportable method of proving your point.  Yes, if I accept that only the two scenarios you’ve outlined exist, your choice is superior.  However, it is possible that a wild trout, or one introduced from a hatchery, may inhabit a "lightly infected" WD positive stream and provide an immunity to WD that is commensurate with your hypothetical Hatchery Fish.  After all, this is Mother Nature we’re discussing here.  She’s anything but linear! I believe that hatcheries have their place, as do wild runs. I believe that catch and release is a tools, and should be used with an awareness of the appropriate application of that tool and its potential short-comings. I believe Flyfishing, much like Monday Night Football, has become much too popular, and in its popularity has suffered from many individuals trying to define it to fit into their paradigm.  It’s still just fishing. Tight Lines, Charley

Response:

No, because if you have just caught a fish that appears healthy, then it either has WD or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t then put it back. If it does, then it might be one of the few fish that are resistant to WD, and if it lives to reproduce, the resistance will be passed on to its offspring. Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it.

There is absolutely no way to tell if a fish has WD or not, except for the very young fish who were exposed before ther cartilage had formed. These young fish will have deformed spines, heads, and blackened tails. However they do not live very long as they are easy prey, poor competitors, or die as a result of WD.  On the other hand an older fish that is exposed my carry millions of spores and never show any signs. When they die they release these spores that invade the Tubifex worm (intermediate host) that later releases the spores that harm the very young fish. As far as a hatrchery fish goes, if the fish was raised in a WD negative hatchery  (or born in the wild) and placed in a WD positive stream it would never exhibit  signs of WD but could carry millions of spores until its death. But a fish raised in a "lightly infected" WD positve hatchery may only be exposed to a few spores,  at which time the fish becomes immune to WD, and the spore load never increases. Which fish should is the healthiest? In the end it will be the hatchery raised WD exposed fish that has the best chance of survival and passing on resistance to its offspring. regards, Mike

Response:

<snip A recent study on the Colorado River states:..Trout sampled exhibited higher symptoms of both whirling disease      and gas bubble traum=

a in stream sections with high saturation levels than those with lower saturation levels. <snip What exactly is gas bubble trauma? Is this an effect in aerated hydraulics on ??? gills, body surface, or ???? Please elucidate. Jon

Response:

One of the stages in the WD parasites’ life is in the tubifex worm. These worms live in the mud on the bottom of a river. A large elevation drop generally means faster water, and no mud accumulation. No mud, no worms, no place for the WD parasite to accumulate. Also faster water means a dead rotting WD infested carcass doesn’t go to the bottom to spread it’s spores. It gets swept away. Does this latter posit a positive argument for catch and kill ? TimW

No, because if you have just caught a fish that appears healthy, then it either has WD or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t then put it back. If it does, then it might be one of the few fish that are resistant to WD, and if it lives to reproduce, the resistance will be passed on to its offspring. Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

     Just my $0.02, and I expect I’ll get a flame or two for this.      Rainbows are native to Pacific coast streams.  Sure they grow to a large size, but anytime you transplant fish from their place of origin to a new area, you’re taking a big risk.  Not only are the organisms not adapted to all the vagaraties of the new habiat, even if the populations do thrive, but the other organisms in the new habitat are also not adapted to the imported species.      Cutthroats are native to the Rocky Mountain streams.  They evolved there, in consort with all of the other organisms in the ecosystem.  It would make more sense to revitalize the cutthroat populations, especially with all of their interesting subspecies, than to keep relying on alien species.  Likewise I would rather see more brook trout in eastern streams. Jesse M. Purvis

Response:

   I have a few questions about whirling disease I hope someone knowledgeable can answer.  Any realistic estimates on how long it would take a river that has been hit hard by the disease (the Madison for example) to recover naturally without stocking?  Years?  Decades?  Never? Will the parasite die off after a period with no juvenile rainbows, making the river suitable for repopulation?  Can a significant portion of fry survive to sexual maturity, or does reproduction halt completely?  It seems to me that by the time the river recovers to a point that it is suitable for a rainbow population again that the surviving trout, if any, would be too old to spawn.    Are steelhead susceptible?    Let’s suppose that it is only a matter of time before all the wild rainbow fisheries in the west are affected.  While it is awful to imagine, it seems realistic unless we find a way to kill the parasite.  After all, rivers that are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.    I hope this initiates some useful discussion. -al

Response:

These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion. However, I did attend the WD conference in Denver back in Feb, and have read alot of the papers that were discussed there, so I think I’m reasonably well-informed.   I have a few questions about whirling disease I hope someone knowledgeable can answer.  Any realistic estimates on how long it would take a river that has been hit hard by the disease (the Madison for example) to recover naturally without stocking?  Years?  Decades?  Never?

No one knows – can be any of the above. Depends on what you mean by recover, and on what it is recovering from. However, keep reading, the news isn’t that bad. Will the parasite die off after a period with no juvenile rainbows, making the river suitable for repopulation?

Apparently, yes. Utah killed off a river counting on this. CA has seen watersheds go from testing positive for WD to negative over several years, too. Can a significant portion of fry survive to sexual maturity, or does reproduction halt completely?  It

Yes, a significant portion can survive. It depends on how saturated the water is with WD; and that depends on river conditions. My bet is that many rivers in the west will not support heavy concentrations of WD (ie, enough to drastically affect the rainbow population). Most hard-hit waters are tailwaters — no runoff, constant temps, and lots of moss and mud for tubifex worms (the other host). seems to me that by the time the river recovers to a point that it is suitable for a rainbow population again that the surviving trout, if any, would be too old to spawn.

I am pretty sure that fish spawn all of their adult life. In fact, the older and bigger they are, the more eggs they produce. They just keep getting better!   Are steelhead susceptible?

Probably.   Let’s suppose that it is only a matter of time before all the wild rainbow fisheries in the west are affected.  While it is awful to imagine, it seems realistic unless we find a way to kill the parasite.  After all, rivers that are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  

Yeah, but don’t worry about it. I don’t think it’ll spread as fast as in the past, and, as above, there are many rivers that probably won’t see population crashes, due to the nature of the river itself. Besides, the rainbow isn’t native in much of the west anyways. Its just the CA$H fish — maybe ol’ T-Bone will get his wish of less-crowded waters, after all. Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.

I don’t think they’ll need to stock. Remember, the Madison was already over 50% browns, so its not like there’s no fish left. Probably Henry’s Fork too. But who knows, I could be wrong. There are many states and many rivers already infected. Overall, it has been very few rivers that have seen population crashes. And these rivers ARE NOT NATURAL. The upper Colorado, the Madison, others in Colorado, do not have natural flows. I don’t think WD will devastate the west. Jon.

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Question:

You want: Trout and Salmon Rivers and Lochs of Scotland Bruce Sandison Merlin Unwin Books.

Question:

would someone please repost the address for the vote on the fly tying group. thank you — Gerry Hudson Judy Hudson

Response:

would someone please repost the address for the vote on the fly tying group.

Send an email message with one of the following two lines (and only that in the message) as the text of the message: I vote YES to rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying I vote NO to rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying Please vote if you haven’t done so.  There are only 9 days left to vote. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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