Question:

Today I took the day off work and decided to head out to Loch Lomond in Santa Cruz California to get in some flyfishing. Loch Lomond is a beautiful lake for being so close to an urban center. It’s a reservoir in a mountain valley… and if you squint just a little and ignore all of the picnic tables and hiking paths, you would swear you’re at a lake in the high sierra. It has resident populations of bass, catfish, panfish, and is planted in the spring with rainbows.  Of course, the trout is my fish of choice. Since the lake doesn’t allow wading or float tubes, your only choice is to bring or rent a boat if you want to flyfish… renting is cheap, and they rent only rowboats, so I get a free workout thrown in. I didn’t get on the lake until 11am (had to drop my daughter off at school, etc), so I did get a late start.  Thanks to the fog, though, conditions were cool and the fish were still near the surface.  One after one, I try all the dries in my flybox.. but they’re not hitting. Strange, because they are ocassionally rising (though not very often)… to what?  That’s the big question, and one I still don’t know the answer to.  Maybe there are emergers, but I can’t see any. I also try nymphing a little bit… but no luck there either. Of course, I notice the trollers and the bait dunkers at the shore aren’t having any better luck.  A couple people had good luck earlier, before I arrived, but nobody is catching. Anyway, it was a GREAT day, even if I didn’t catch a damn thing.  I was off the water by 2pm, just when the fog burned off and the air started to heat up a little.  I WILL go back soon, it was great! Now, here’s the request for knowledge section of this post: HOW does one fish nymphs in a lake?  I’ve fished dries in high sierra lakes, and dries and nymphs in rivers, but never nymphs in lakes.  Do they need movement?  The current is moving a little in the lake.  Any advise you can give me? Also, what do you think they were rising for?  Yea, I know you weren’t there, but if you had to guess…. Thanks for the help…

Response:

HOW does one fish nymphs in a lake?  

Buy and read Gary LaFontaine’s Fishing the High Mountain Lakes. You might try dangling a small brassie (chironomid imitation) below an indicator, especially if there’s a little ripple on the surface. Works for me. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

<SNIP Also, what do you think they were rising for?  Yea, I know you weren’t there, but if you had to guess….

Chironomids. ( Midge pupa). Have a look here; http://www.bcadventure.com/adventure/angling/protalk/chan/confession…. The rest of the site is worth a good look as well. TL MC

Response:

Try this one as well; http://www.fishbc.com/adventure/angling/flies/chironomid/pupa.phtml TL MC

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Thanks! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HOW does one fish nymphs in a lake? Buy and read Gary LaFontaine’s Fishing the High Mountain Lakes. You might try dangling a small brassie (chironomid imitation) below an indicator, especially if there’s a little ripple on the surface. Works for me. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Thanks and thanks! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have a look here; http://www.bcadventure.com/adventure/angling/protalk/chan/confession…. The rest of the site is worth a good look as well. TL MC

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 Chironomids, all various colors coming off lakes or any other hatch you can identify are difficult to fish on lakes.  The trout are many times large and they are cruisers.  The difficulty in fishing for cruising trout feeding on emerging Chironomids is timing.  Timing is everything. Pick a fish out that you see break the surface one, two, cast, three!  The fish are taking Chironomids just under the surface, not on top of it.  They cruise about a foot or two under looking up.  They come up and take the food in an arch, their backs breaking the water.  This means you may have to try dangling about six to eight inches of tippet "under the water" and float the rest of the tippet and leader on top.  Lead the fish, and then twitch about an inch or two.  Dress the first few inches of leader with Xink and that includes the nymph or Chironomid pattern of your choice.  Float the rest of your leader and fly line. "The Take," is one of perpetual motion and a cruiser will hook themselves for obvious reasons.  The initial response is one of surprise.  Make sure you lower your rod tip level and sideways to the first run because it will be a duzzie! Hope this helps.  You WILL catch fish. George Gehrke "Chironomids are Cillers"

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Question:

Anyone know where is the best fishing place in Vancouver?

Response:

Anyone know where is the best fishing place in Vancouver?

Deer Lake and Pacific Ocean donaldduck

Response:

Anyone know where is the best fishing place in Vancouver?

Deer Lake and Pacific Ocean. donaldduck

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Granville Island Market

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know where is the best fishing place in Vancouver? Deer Lake and Pacific Ocean donaldduck

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Anyone know where is the best fishing place in Vancouver?

Vancouver Island renee

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http://www.predatorcharters.com http://www.thefishingclub.com/ http://www.guidebc.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know where is the best fishing place in Vancouver? Deer Lake and Pacific Ocean. donaldduck

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Try Fred’s Fishing Adventures out of Chilliwack.  Outstanding for Sturgeon, Salmon and Steelhead.  Fished with him last Sunday, great trip.  Fly fishing for Pinks a little later in the summer should be outstanding!!! http://www.freds-bc.com/ — <*))))< Paul Phillips Director of Operations Fintastic Fish Mounts http://www.fintastic.com/ spam block x

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know where is the best fishing place in Vancouver?

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Question:

Gotta side with Ghinky on the leaders. Knotless leaders suck bigtime. Also giving him the benefit of the doubt (I hope I don’t regret this) I suspect he meant single vs. double or triple. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why don’t you just read you leader normally?  What is the problem by sticking to "Fair Chase," rules of fly fishing? It’s silly.  It calls for hand-tied leaders (who cares?) and barbed hooks (get real.) People use indicators because they do not know how to read the fly line, fishing conditions, or the leader properly. That is an uninformed opinion at best, and a lie at worst.

Response:

Why don’t you just read you leader normally?  What is the problem by sticking to "Fair Chase," rules of fly fishing?

It’s silly.  It calls for hand-tied leaders (who cares?) and barbed hooks (get real.) People use indicators because they do not know how to read the fly line, fishing conditions, or the leader properly.

That is an uninformed opinion at best, and a lie at worst.

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Man… I was just kidding….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Many do have bad eye sight, but that is what corrective lens and Polaroids are for Beetle. Look, if you want to use an indicator, that is your choice.  I was only asking and you answered my question. Thanks, George I guess because I can’t SEE my leader in fast pocket water I suppose…. As far as the argument about indicators being like radar…. I guess that makes dry fly fisherman what? So inept they need a tailslap or a big poppy SLURP to know they got a bite? Beetle — (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

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The patent is for Xink not Gink.

DOH ! You’re right of course, I just assumed if Le Duc du Chocolat said it, it must be so. — Ken Fortenberry

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Many do have bad eye sight, but that is what corrective lens and Polaroids are for Beetle.   Look, if you want to use an indicator, that is your choice.  I was only asking and you answered my question. Thanks, George I guess because I can’t SEE my leader in fast pocket water I suppose…. As far as the argument about indicators being like radar…. I guess that makes dry fly fisherman what? So inept they need a tailslap or a big poppy SLURP to know they got a bite? Beetle

– (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

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If Gink is outlawed only outlaws will have Gink.

Seriously ROFLMAO — Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno 406-626-4022

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The patent is for Xink not Gink. DOH ! You’re right of course, I just assumed if Le Duc du Chocolat said it, it must be so.

Yep, I didn’t look either. — Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno 406-626-4022

Response:

Ken Fortenberry writes: Something to consider … I have no interest in having my name in any record book.  Besides, I can’t find gink in any of the fly shops I visit.

No, I don’t either. I think the "record" thing is a little silly and of more interest to tackle manufacturer’s bragging rights and marketing schemes than to Joe Angler. I do confess to having stuck a bottle of Gink in my vest from the pile at Wayno’s Original ‘Clave but I have long since thrown it away and I don’t look for it in flyshops. Interesting to note, however, that it’s probably illegal to use Gink on the "Artificials Only" waters in Montana. I may start to look for Gink in flyshops just to pass on this interesting bit of info. — Ken Fortenberry

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The patent is for Xink not Gink. I don’t know if gink is scented but I bet George will tell us. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gherke writes: Why don’t you just read you leader normally?  What is the problem by sticking to "Fair Chase," rules of fly fishing? Probably because the "Fair Chase" is *your* idea. That’s why gink has scent in it. <g Thanks to Mike Connor’s posting the patent info we now know that Gink floatant contains scent. This would make any fish caught using a fly treated with Gink ineligible for any IGFA tippet class record according to IGFA regulation F ; "No scent, either natural or artificial is allowed on flies. The use of scented material in a fly is prohibited." http://www.igfa.org/rulebook/page2.html Something to consider if you’re interested in having your name in the record book. — Ken Fortenberry

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Interesting to note, however, that it’s probably illegal to use Gink on the "Artificials Only" waters in Montana. I may start to look for Gink in flyshops just to pass on this interesting bit of info.

If Gink is outlawed only outlaws will have Gink. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Charlie Choc writes: Gherke writes: Why don’t you just read you leader normally?  What is the problem by sticking to "Fair Chase," rules of fly fishing? Probably because the "Fair Chase" is *your* idea.   That’s why gink has scent in it. <g — Charlie…

All soap does, but I didn’t know floatant did.  <g Dave

Response:

Ken Fortenberry writes:

(snip) Something to consider if you’re interested in having your name in the record book.

I have no interest in having my name in any record book.  Besides, I can’t find gink in any of the fly shops I visit.  And, they aren’t Orvis either. Dave

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All soap does, but I didn’t know floatant did.  <g

Not sure what gink is, but according to it’s patent it has scent. <g — Charlie…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks to Mike Connor’s posting the patent info we now know that Gink floatant contains scent. This would make any fish caught using a fly treated with Gink ineligible for any IGFA tippet class record according to IGFA regulation F ; "No scent, either natural or artificial is allowed on flies. The use of scented material in a fly is prohibited." http://www.igfa.org/rulebook/page2.html Something to consider if you’re interested in having your name in the record book. — Ken Fortenberry

Plus, here in Montana, when a stretch of river is labeled as "artificial fly only", any "scent" is considered as "natural bait" and DOES NOT meet the "artificial fly" definition. This means that all the fly fishermen who fish those stretches and use GINK are/have been breaking the law. Hope the warden isn’t reading this. — Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno 406-626-4022

Response:

I guess because I can’t SEE my leader in fast pocket water I suppose…. As far as the argument about indicators being like radar…. I guess that makes dry fly fisherman what? So inept they need a tailslap or a big poppy SLURP to know they got a bite? Beetle

Response:

Gherke writes: Why don’t you just read you leader normally?  What is the problem by sticking to "Fair Chase," rules of fly fishing? Probably because the "Fair Chase" is *your* idea.  

That’s why gink has scent in it. <g — Charlie…

Response:

Gherke writes: Why don’t you just read you leader normally?  What is the problem by sticking to "Fair Chase," rules of fly fishing? Probably because the "Fair Chase" is *your* idea. That’s why gink has scent in it. <g

Thanks to Mike Connor’s posting the patent info we now know that Gink floatant contains scent. This would make any fish caught using a fly treated with Gink ineligible for any IGFA tippet class record according to IGFA regulation F ; "No scent, either natural or artificial is allowed on flies. The use of scented material in a fly is prohibited." http://www.igfa.org/rulebook/page2.html Something to consider if you’re interested in having your name in the record book. — Ken Fortenberry

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Why don’t you just read you leader normally?  What is the problem by sticking to "Fair Chase," rules of fly fishing? http://www.gink.com/articles_stories/ginkchaserules.html We have not inserted using indicators, yea or nay, yet.  Frankly, I’m against it for a variety of reasons.  The opinions regarding indicators in the present generation is one of mass hysteria because ‘everyone else is doing it’ doesn’t make it right.  People use indicators because they do not know how to read the fly line, fishing conditions, or the leader properly.  Indicators are not, what many agree, fair chase.  It really is a weapon because it makes ‘fly fishing easier’.  It is as close to imitating ‘radar’ as any tool thought of in fly fishing. But my question to you remains.  Why do you think you need to fly fish with indicators on  your leader or fly line? Thank you, George — (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

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Gherke writes: Why don’t you just read you leader normally?  What is the problem by sticking to "Fair Chase," rules of fly fishing?

Probably because the "Fair Chase" is *your* idea.  Borger, LaFontaine, Kaufman and other WORLD FLY FISHERS use indicators.  You are a nobody, George, so why would anyone follow your fair chse.  Your ideas on fly fishing mean nothing to most of us because you are a liar, braggart, and fool.   Dave LaCourse, Pirate and CBD

Response:

Thanks all, I appreciate it… I’m thinking part of it might be a little laziness mid-stream and leaving smaller tippet than I needed for a #12 indicator, hence the twist, probably mostly occuring because it was fairly swift pocket water [North Fork Middle Willamette] and letting it swing at all at the end of the drift was causing the most twist as the fly rolled along the surface? At any rate, I shall re-try the hook-bend method with a size or two bigger material ahead of the indicator… Aside from the twist, watching the setup it looked like something I really hope to try once I start to see some caddis activity here on my river as the indicator skips and rolls on slight swing with an emerger beneath…  Maybe a nice bushy black elkhair caddis and a cdc or elkhair caddis emerger…. Thanks again Beetle

Response:

I’ve never fished with and indicator fly before yesterday… apparently there was a cosmic reason too… I have a number of books and videos by people like Gary LaFontaine, etc… that suggest various methods, but I remain stumped.

Connecting the dropper to the hook bend works better for me.  It does not usually work too well with a large weighted nymph or a nymph with a large bead head.  How big/weighted/beaded is your nymph?  If you can get by with something like a stimulator it will probably float it better.

Response:

Bob Weinberger writes:

(Outstanding advice snipped) I would only add that your cast is more of a circular cast than you would normally make.  There ain’t no loop, or at least it is so opened up that it doesn’t look like a normal loop. It is  more of a lob started when the rig gets down stream from you.  No false casting, and try to keep distance to a maximum of 30 feet.  Twisting tippet usually means mis-matched tippet.  A size 12 fly is best matched with 3x or 4x tippet.   Since you state you are using an emerger (instead of a weighted nymph) as a dropper, try going to a smaller indicator fly.  I fish a size 18 emerger that I can not see because it is so small and is just below the surface.  I will either use a strike indicator or a #16 dry about 3 feet above it. Yarn indicator sinking?  Go up one size and use some Albolene or Aquel on it. Dave

Response:

        Leadin snipped So the questions are: 1) is this just inately difficult [meaning I SUCK] 2) what part of this apparently common approach am I missing or do not understand [which rarely happens ] or 3) Should I just stick to the bright yarn method which sinks in 10 minutes of fishing AHGA! Beetle

Beetle, I have tried all three methods that you tried, and I prefer the tie in at the bend of the hook method.  It is critical that you match the size and floatability of the indicator dry to the weight on the trailing fly, i.e. don’t overpower the dry with too much weight.  Also, I have better luck if the indicator is not an upright wing fly and is on a longer shank hook, e.g. use a stimulator or Goddard Caddis. Another hint, the trailer should be on a tippet about 1x smaller than the tippet to the indicator.  If your leader is properly tapered and in balance with the outfit, and  trailer isn’t heavily weighted or on a tippet longer than 3-4′ you should not need to open up your loops very much at all for casts of 30′ or less. I sometimes fish with two small trailers, one 2-3′ from the indicator & another 1-2′ below that. Although, I get more tangles this way than when fishing a single fly, it handles quite well if there is no wind.  Of course if the fish are concentrating on only one of the trailers, I quickly eliminate one of the flies from the rig to ease  handling. HTH Bob Weinberger

Response:

So the questions are: 1) is this just inately difficult [meaning I SUCK] 2) what part of this apparently common approach am I missing or do not understand [which rarely happens ]

You have to pick your situation. Don’t try a dropper fly if it’s very windy, and don’t try to cast the rig like you would a single dry fly, especially if you’re casting weight. Make ugly, chucking-type casts. Every minute you spend untangling a mess is a minute you aren’t putting the flies in front of the fish. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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I’ve never fished with and indicator fly before yesterday… apparently there was a cosmic reason too… I have a number of books and videos by people like Gary LaFontaine, etc… that suggest various methods, but I remain stumped. I ended up with a twisted mess everytime. The leader in front of the indicator [fly] would twist up so bad it would knot up. Basically I had a #12 humpy [going on the deer hair floats idea] and an emerger about 15" below that, both were tied to the eye of the attractor, causing the second problem, thehumpy was usually face first/ass up… Then I tried tying the dropper leader material [again about 12" to 15"] to the bend of the hook of the indicator. Less twist, but ass in the water floating too low or drowning and more hangups en-cast. [I did try to open up my loop/backcast]. THEN I figured I was a bit smart, so I put on a knotted leader and a short tippet. In front of the first blood knot above the tippet I attached the indicator with a short [4"???] tippet of it’s own. No indicator twist, but it was always [mostly anyway] wrapped around the leader/tippet in varous ways…. So the questions are: 1) is this just inately difficult [meaning I SUCK] 2) what part of this apparently common approach am I missing or do not understand [which rarely happens ] or 3) Should I just stick to the bright yarn method which sinks in 10 minutes of fishing AHGA! Beetle

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Question:

I’ve never been very good at following instructions.  I tried putting a tag on each of the flies I tied for the swap but it got to be an unholy mess with all those itty bitty pieces of paper, especially since I used barbless hooks.  So, I decided that I would simply identify my contribution here for all those due to receive one. Pass Lake: Fine black chenille body on a size 14 standard dry fly hook.  The tail is mallard flank clipped short just behind the bend.  Three turns of brown hackle.  White calf tail wing tied trude style.  I can’t imagine anyone having any difficulty identifying the pass lake based on this description…….it doesn’t even vaguely resemble anything else I have ever seen.  I would be much surprised if it could be confused with anyone else’s contribution.  Besides, it should be the only one you get without a tag on it.    :) This is allegedly a dry fly, but with the chenille body it tends to absorb water readily.  In fact, it floats or sinks pretty much at its own discretion.  However, it has proven very effective for me whether floating high and dry, floundering in the meniscus, or completely submerged.  Not only does it not resemble any other fly I have ever seen, but the same can be said for its affinity to anything that has ever lived in a lake or stream.  Nevertheless, both trout and bluegills (and all their kin) take it readily.  Dead drifting, skittering across the surface, slow retrieve or twitching below the surface, and simply hanging in the current have all worked at various time under a variety of conditions. Any experienced tier should have no trouble figuring out how to put this one together.  One important note though:  calf tail is very slippery; don’t try to make a small neat head on this one.  I make the heads relatively long and thick in order to get a lot of thread holding the wing in place.  Be very liberal in this regard or you will find the calf tail falling out.  Newbies feel free to email me for specific instructions. Sorry Frank, I tried to be good!

Response:

 Incidentally, I have caught many fish on the Pass Lake by just letting it hang in the current downstream while watching a partner fish.  Any similar experience with the Rio Grande King?

Especially when caddis are hatching, once the fly begins to drag I submerge it, give it slack and fish it like a downstream wet.  Get lots of fish during the swing and even hanging directly downstream.  These are usually smaller fish.  The better fish I’ve caught on the pattern have been fish tight against the bank that hit the fly when partially submerged. Willi

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You might be right Warren, I’ve called in the FBI to have the box and all those little buggers checked for fingerprints…but if the miscreant who removed those tags wuz wearin’ expensive Italian shoes and blood-soaked gloves, we’ll never get a conviction! Frank (coppin’ out) Church

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s OK Warren, the old tired grey swapmeister will tag ‘em for ya both, I love helping out those less fortunate than me. )….."and barbless hooks don’t help anything either"….shoulda been one of these there  :-) (I gotta take longer naps) Thanks Frank.  I will keep investigating to see who it was that didn’t tag their flies.  It wasn’t me, because I had mine all tagged.  I spent a lot of time tagging those damn things so if they arrived without tags it must have been the postal service and their latest anti-terrorism technology that made them disappear. Of course the flies were probably damaged too during the process, so keep that in mind.<g Warren X#-[ Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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You might be right Warren, I’ve called in the FBI to have the box and all those little buggers checked for fingerprints…but if the miscreant who removed those tags wuz wearin’ expensive Italian shoes and blood-soaked gloves, we’ll never get a conviction!

Or what if it was Richard Jewel?  They’ll never prove Bubba did it! <g Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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That’s OK Warren, the old tired grey swapmeister will tag ‘em for ya both, I love helping out those less fortunate than me. )….."and barbless hooks don’t help anything either"….shoulda been one of these there  :-) (I gotta take longer naps)

Thanks Frank.  I will keep investigating to see who it was that didn’t tag their flies.  It wasn’t me, because I had mine all tagged.  I spent a lot of time tagging those damn things so if they arrived without tags it must have been the postal service and their latest anti-terrorism technology that made them disappear. Of course the flies were probably damaged too during the process, so keep that in mind.<g Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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Well, OK Wolfie..I’ll forgive you just this once, but all you really needed to do was put yer moniker and the name of the fly on the tag.  I can see why the tag would be the size of a legal paper with all that recipe on it. And barbless hooks don’t help anything either.

Well Wolfie, you aren’t the only one that bagged them without taggin’ them.  I know there was another dirty, rotten s.o.b. out there that didn’t do it either.  For the life of me I can’t remember his name or what he tied, but I know he is out there <g Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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That’s OK Warren, the old tired grey swapmeister will tag ‘em for ya both, I love helping out those less fortunate than me. )….."and barbless hooks don’t help anything either"….shoulda been one of these there  :-) (I gotta take longer naps) OTGS

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, OK Wolfie..I’ll forgive you just this once, but all you really needed to do was put yer moniker and the name of the fly on the tag.  I can see why the tag would be the size of a legal paper with all that recipe on it. And barbless hooks don’t help anything either. Well Wolfie, you aren’t the only one that bagged them without taggin’ them. I know there was another dirty, rotten s.o.b. out there that didn’t do it either. For the life of me I can’t remember his name or what he tied, but I know he is out there <g Warren X#-[ Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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Actually the fly is very similar to a Rio Grande King or Rio Grande Trude….

Thank you Willi.  And now that you have made everyone aware of the distinctions between the Rio Grande King and my own humble offering NOBODY has any excuse to confuse it with anything else that arrives in their goody boxes!  Incidentally, I have caught many fish on the Pass Lake by just letting it hang in the current downstream while watching a partner fish.  Any similar experience with the Rio Grande King? Wolfgang who is hoping oh so fervently that he will be able to put his fly swap rejects to work this weekend!

Response:

Good idea posting the recipe Wolfgang.  BTW – I made my tags stay on by coating the paper front and back with scotch(tm) tape. Here is the recipe for the Teco Bug (or Teko Bug – I’ve seen it spelled both ways). The Teco Bug was originated about 40 years by Dick Blair and some other guys long who fish the Westfield River here in Western Massachusetts.  The lower stretches of the river have lots of dragonfly nymphs and we think this fly imitates those and probably stonefly nymphs and the Isonychia.  Dick ties these in sizes 4 through 8, usually unweighted and never with a bead.  Most other people I know will either add lead or a bead head.  The ones I tied are on a size 8 Mustad 3906B nymph hook.  I also tie mine sparser and smaller than Dick.  He does two layers of the underfur before adding the guard hairs – he makes really fat buggy nymphs and has been very successful with those for lots of years.  I don’t fish the main stem of the Westfield, preferring the smaller feeder branches, and I think the sparser version does better up there and also in the ponds I fish.  Fish the Teco as a nymph (up and across, dead drift, and use an indicator if you want).  We also fish these like a streamer, down and across with short strips at the end of the swing, especially when fishing the Isonychia drift in August.  The name Teco (Teko) comes from Tekoa Mountain, a big rocky hill overlooking the Westfield River where Dick likes to fish. Bead Head Teco Bug No tail Thread: Danville 6/0 waxed, color to match fur Hook: Mustad 3906B or similar, size 4 through 12 (I usually use size Bead: cyclops eye (size to fit hook, 1/8" is good on a size Underbody: snowshoe hare body fur underfur Overbody: snowshoe hare guard hair (see description below) Wing: mallard flank feather Method: We tie these in silver (silver bead, gray fur, natural mallard), brown (silver or brass bead, brown fur, mallard dyed wood duck, or real wood duck if you have them) and olive (olive dyed rabbit, brass bead, olive dyed mallard). Put the bead on the hook.  You probably need to pinch down the barb. Coat shank well with thread back to the hook bend.  You can lock in the bead with thread, but I usually just build up a ball of dubbing.  For the sparse version, bring the thread up to the head.  For the fat version, bring the thread back to the hook bend. Cut off several bunches of fur (six is about right for a size and separate the underfur from the guard hairs.  This is critical to the fly – using blended dubbing and picking out guard hairs does not give a buggy enough appearance.  Swap hands so you are pinching the fur at the cut end and pinch the guardhairs with the thumb and forefinger of the other hand. Pull out the guard hairs and stack in neat piles for later use.  Tease out the piles of underfur and mix. Dub the underfur mixture and wrap a fairly cylindrical body.  The fat version does two layers of dubbing.  Both versions should end with the thread at the hook bend. The guard hairs are applied either by waxing the thread and dabbing the hairs on loosely, or by using a dubbing loop.  I prefer using a little wax and just sticking on the hairs.  If you’re using pre-waxed thread and you have the right touch, no additional wax is necessary.  Don’t spin them tight.  Wrap the guard hair dubbing up to the eye.  The idea is to apply all six bunches fairly evenly.  You should have lots of spiky hair sticking out in all directions.  If necessary, brush out more hairs with a piece of velcro. The mallard flank wing should use a symmetrical rounded feather.  Pick a decent feather and strip off the fluffy section.  The feather should extend about 1/2 hook shank length past the bend.  Wet your fingers and stroke the barbules to compact them.  Dick Blair just puts the feather in his mouth to wet it and pulls it through his lips to compact it – use your own judgement. Take two or three loose wraps of thread over the feather and position the feather, then pull the stem to bring the barbules under the wraps.  This further compacts the feather.  When it looks right, take a few tighter wraps to secure the feather. Make a wing case by taking the thread back about 1/4" under the feather and taking two loose wraps.  Then bring the thread back to the head and tie off. –Stan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never been very good at following instructions.  I tried putting a tag on each of the flies I tied for the swap but it got to be an unholy mess with all those itty bitty pieces of paper, especially since I used barbless hooks.  So, I decided that I would simply identify my contribution here for all those due to receive one. Pass Lake:

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<snip Apparently my spell checker doesn’t care about obviously stupid headers or it is deliberately out to get me.

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Well, OK Wolfie..I’ll forgive you just this once, but all you really needed to do was put yer moniker and the name of the fly on the tag.  I can see why the tag would be the size of a legal paper with all that recipe on it. And barbless hooks don’t help anything either. YOT&GS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never been very good at following instructions.  I tried putting a tag on each of the flies I tied for the swap but it got to be an unholy mess with all those itty bitty pieces of paper, especially since I used barbless hooks.  So, I decided that I would simply identify my contribution here for all those due to receive one. Sorry Frank, I tried to be good!

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Actually the fly is very similar to a Rio Grande King or Rio Grande Trude, a fly that was very popular about 25 years ago in Colorado and Wyoming. The Rio Grande traditionally has a golden tinsel tag and the tail is made of golden pheasant tippets, but there were many variations. I tie mine very similar to your Pass Creek, but use brown hackle for the tail (one less material to get out) and I often tie it on a 2X long hook. I also like the versatility of this fly.  Like you stated, it can be fished dry, damp or wet and can be fished dead drift or with various amount of action. Locally it has seemed to have fallen out of favor. It is one of several "old" patterns that I use that have been replaced by more modern, but not necessarily better, patterns. These "old" patterns, aside from being good flies in their own right, can sometimes turn the trick on fish that have seen alot of flies. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never been very good at following instructions.  I tried putting a tag on each of the flies I tied for the swap but it got to be an unholy mess with all those itty bitty pieces of paper, especially since I used barbless hooks.  So, I decided that I would simply identify my contribution here for all those due to receive one. Pass Lake: Fine black chenille body on a size 14 standard dry fly hook.  The tail is mallard flank clipped short just behind the bend.  Three turns of brown hackle.  White calf tail wing tied trude style.  I can’t imagine anyone having any difficulty identifying the pass lake based on this description…….it doesn’t even vaguely resemble anything else I have ever seen.  I would be much surprised if it could be confused with anyone else’s contribution.  Besides, it should be the only one you get without a tag on it.    :) This is allegedly a dry fly, but with the chenille body it tends to absorb water readily.  In fact, it floats or sinks pretty much at its own discretion.  However, it has proven very effective for me whether floating high and dry, floundering in the meniscus, or completely submerged.  Not only does it not resemble any other fly I have ever seen, but the same can be said for its affinity to anything that has ever lived in a lake or stream.  Nevertheless, both trout and bluegills (and all their kin) take it readily.  Dead drifting, skittering across the surface, slow retrieve or twitching below the surface, and simply hanging in the current have all worked at various time under a variety of conditions. Any experienced tier should have no trouble figuring out how to put this one together.  One important note though:  calf tail is very slippery; don’t try to make a small neat head on this one.  I make the heads relatively long and thick in order to get a lot of thread holding the wing in place.  Be very liberal in this regard or you will find the calf tail falling out.  Newbies feel free to email me for specific instructions. Sorry Frank, I tried to be good!

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Question:

<SNIPPED.  They are always very good and very quick reponses.  Do you sit at your computer all day just waiting for ROFF posts?:) Tim

No, but I do log in about twice daily usually, and at times when most posters elsewhere have long since gone to bed, so it may appear that my responses are pretty quick.  I sometimes spend quite a while doing other work on the computer, and log in even more often though. TL MC

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[snip] So give em a brake or just keep on driving that jeep util you find a suitable wall..

Metaphorically speaking, of course… /daytripper ("I Brake For Newbies")

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Lighten up, have a cool one and relax a bit.  It is not about gear or ego’s fellas. Mike

Thanks Mom…..errrr Mike….I almost forgot what it was "all about"….now as soon as I get done doin’ the dishes, startin another load of clothes and takin out the garbage.. if I have your permission, I’ll suck down that cold one before I kick another cat down the driveway….. Jeez….I’m sure glad we have our Jiminy Cricket around today!! Larry #:)#

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Tim Look Tim, if you don’t ask your learning curve will be slower, so ask. However Grumpy some of us are, if the truth be known most here really like to share what we think we know. And newbies are the future of our sport so you are valued. As to diplomacy, or what some might prefer to think of as courtesy, well that itself is a matter of debate. I for one have a bad attitude toward what I consider pussy footing around, and a fairly sharp tongue. However, I think I can assure you though that even the most ragged and long standing feuds here wash away in the field and when it comes down to support for wise use of our country’s natural resources. If its any comfort there is also a long standing tradition for cussidness among the flyfishing fraternity. I offer Sparse Grey Hackle’s story "the Lotus Eaters" in his book "Fishless Days, Angling Nights" as exhibit 1, wherein he describes the Fly Fishers Club of Brooklyn, ensconced on the Beaverkill after their move from the the Brodhead’s in the last century. As exhibit 2 and 3  I offer the personality of our patron saint, Theodore Gordon himself, and Hewitt, fairly opinionated buggers I think you will agree. Having survived your initial dunking you’ve earned the right to ask anything you please and you will mostly get reasonable responses. Presumptuous, but I remain your humble servant, Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to agree with you mike. I am very much a "rookie" at this FF game and admittedly don’t post much because I don’t feel I know enough about this wonderful sport to be of help to anybody. I have asked some "newbie" questions and pretty much have received very polite and helpful replies (other than my initial post about an experience I had at a club that had fish feeders installed along the stream, which caused quite a backlash, well deserved though in retrospect). However, I have noticed a decided souring of tempers as of late. I lurk, mainly because I can and have gained many useful tidbits just from reading the posts, but also because I don’t want to be a bother to the regulars by asking a ton of "newbie" questions. After reading some of the recent posts I probably will be even more hesitant in the future. Tim

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The current heat wave must be getting to people.  Of the two posts I read by newbies looking for advice, one guy got his head bit off by somebody on their soapbox about quality vs. price and the other question deteriorated into a thread taking personal jabs at each other and contradicting the previous post. This is not a way to encourage new people to stick around. Lighten up, have a cool one and relax a bit.  It is not about gear or ego’s fellas. Mike

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The current heat wave must be getting to people.  Of the two posts I read by newbies looking for advice, one guy got his head bit off by somebody on their soapbox about quality vs. price and the other question deteriorated into a thread taking personal jabs at each other and contradicting the previous post. This is not a way to encourage new people to stick around. Lighten up, have a cool one and relax a bit.  It is not about gear or ego’s fellas. Mike

I have to agree with you mike. I am very much a "rookie" at this FF game and admittedly don’t post much because I don’t feel I know enough about this wonderful sport to be of help to anybody. I have asked some "newbie" questions and pretty much have received very polite and helpful replies (other than my initial post about an experience I had at a club that had fish feeders installed along the stream, which caused quite a backlash, well deserved though in retrospect). However, I have noticed a decided souring of tempers as of late. I lurk, mainly because I can and have gained many useful tidbits just from reading the posts, but also because I don’t want to be a bother to the regulars by asking a ton of "newbie" questions. After reading some of the recent posts I probably will be even more hesitant in the future. Tim

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<SNIPPED However, I have noticed a decided souring of tempers as of late. I lurk, mainly because I can and have gained many useful tidbits just from reading the posts, but also because I don’t want to be a bother to the regulars by asking a ton of "newbie" questions. After reading some of the recent posts I probably will be even more hesitant in the future. Tim

Hi Tim, that is extremely unfortunate and was not my intention with my post. I just got a bit ratty at somebody insulting a lot of people for no good reason.  As you  know by now, and indeed mentioned in your post,  just about all questions are answered promptly and politely otherwise, by quite a few people. It would be a shame if we frightened people off, but by the same token, some things are unfortunately worded, and beg all sorts of cutting replies, which are then inevitably forthcoming. Glad to see you hung around anyway. TL MC

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Oh yeah? Well fuck you! My rod is bigger than your rod and costs more, too. Tongue firmly in cheek… WESH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The current heat wave must be getting to people.  Of the two posts I read by newbies looking for advice, one guy got his head bit off by somebody on their soapbox about quality vs. price and the other question deteriorated into a thread taking personal jabs at each other and contradicting the previous post. This is not a way to encourage new people to stick around. Lighten up, have a cool one and relax a bit.  It is not about gear or ego’s fellas. Mike

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have asked some "newbie" questions and pretty much have received very polite and helpful replies (other than my initial post about an experience I had at a club that had fish feeders installed along the stream, which caused quite a backlash, well deserved though in retrospect). However, I have noticed a decided souring of tempers as of late. I lurk, mainly because I can and have gained many useful tidbits just from reading the posts, but also because I don’t want to be a bother to the regulars by asking a ton of "newbie" questions. After reading some of the recent posts I probably will be even more hesitant in the future. Tim

Tim, I am a newbie to this NG so if the old timers are getting cranky you can ask me stuff.  I am not bothered by "newbie" questions and enjoy passing on what I know about fishin. Just don’t listen to anyone after I said my peace! Just jokin’.  There is a ton of resources here to use, don’t feel timid in asking questions.  If you still have questions that need to be answered and don’t want the backlash, feel free to email me.  I am available most of the time and will send you a reply just as soon as I can. Warren

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No…not the heat…. (In the memory Sam Kinisson) "It’s not the heat, it’s the stupid fucking questions posted by stupid fucking newbies. What’s the best fucking floatant ? Who gives a flying fuck, how many kinds of fucking floatant are there ? Are these fucking idiots too fucking stupid just to go to the store and ask ‘em what the best fucking floatant is ? What’s next, what finger should I fucking use to put it on my fucking fly ? The heat ? The heat never wanted to make me drive my jeep into A FUCKING WALL". http://www.rodney.com/gallery/kinn.htm Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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<equivocating post snipped Um……come on Tim, why don’t you just tell us how you really feel?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi Tim, that is extremely unfortunate and was not my intention with my post. I just got a bit ratty at somebody insulting a lot of people for no good reason.  As you  know by now, and indeed mentioned in your post,  just about all questions are answered promptly and politely otherwise, by quite a few people. It would be a shame if we frightened people off, but by the same token, some things are unfortunately worded, and beg all sorts of cutting replies, which are then inevitably forthcoming. Glad to see you hung around anyway. TL MC

Hi Mike: yea, I figure I’ll hang around…most of the posts by regulars are pretty comical, even if I don’t know what the hell they’re talking about with all the "inside jokes" around here. BTW, I do appreciate all of your helpful responses to my questions in the past.  They are always very good and very quick reponses.  Do you sit at your computer all day just waiting for ROFF posts?:) Tim

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tim Look Tim, if you don’t ask your learning curve will be slower, so ask. However Grumpy some of us are, if the truth be known most here really like to share what we think we know. And newbies are the future of our sport so you are valued. As to diplomacy, or what some might prefer to think of as courtesy, well that itself is a matter of debate. I for one have a bad attitude toward what I consider pussy footing around, and a fairly sharp tongue. However, I think I can assure you though that even the most ragged and long standing feuds here wash away in the field and when it comes down to support for wise use of our country’s natural resources. If its any comfort there is also a long standing tradition for cussidness among the flyfishing fraternity. I offer Sparse Grey Hackle’s story "the Lotus Eaters" in his book "Fishless Days, Angling Nights" as exhibit 1, wherein he describes the Fly Fishers Club of Brooklyn, ensconced on the Beaverkill after their move from the the Brodhead’s in the last century. As exhibit 2 and 3  I offer the personality of our patron saint, Theodore Gordon himself, and Hewitt, fairly opinionated buggers I think you will agree. Having survived your initial dunking you’ve earned the right to ask anything you please and you will mostly get reasonable responses. Presumptuous, but I remain your humble servant, Dave

Thanks Dave, I already feel better about this NG! Now could you please tell me: What is the best floatant?  <Just Kidding Tim

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It ain’t the heat — natural cussedness. Of course, heat and violent weather do tend to put the trout down, yielding more frustration. Watch it, or I’ll discorse on "Global Warming" again…. r.m.bies

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<equivocating post snipped Um……come on Tim, why don’t you just tell us how you really feel?

How can you possibly complain about such a linguistically sophisticated post ? TL MC

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tim, I am a newbie to this NG so if the old timers are getting cranky you can ask me stuff.  I am not bothered by "newbie" questions and enjoy passing on what I know about fishin. Just don’t listen to anyone after I said my peace! Just jokin’.  There is a ton of resources here to use, don’t feel timid in asking questions.  If you still have questions that need to be answered and don’t want the backlash, feel free to email me.  I am available most of the time and will send you a reply just as soon as I can. Warren

Thanks for the generous offer Warren! Tim

Response:

Oh, I suppose you have never had a stupid question.  I guess you were born knowing exactly what is the best floatant.  You know some people don’t have a flyfishing shop right next door and asking here is a great way for people to learn.  So give em a brake or just keep on driving that jeep util you find a suitable wall..

Response:

Question:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer.

Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file. — riverman I think, therefore I thwim. Carpe ropum. "There is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period."

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I love Mad River boats BUT one might get a little argument about the Explorer being the best all rounder from Swift Kipawa fans. who would suggest that the Kipawa is more stable more speedy (and faster too) more capacious more maneuverable more white water capable more seaworthy and more perttier. — Lyle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file. — riverman I think, therefore I thwim. Carpe ropum. "There is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period."

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I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file.

If you want one boat that will do everything, I agree (though I haven’t tried the Swift).  If you want a boat for primarily or exclusively flatwater, then there are better choices out there in composite/fiberglass/kevlar — Andrew

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer.

It’s been a while since I purchased my first boat, and I don’t know much about what’s out there, but my general comment would be buy the best boat you can afford.  Don’t spare the horses.  Talk to people in a local canoe and kayak club, and get their recommendations on brands. Tell them what you want to do with the boat–that’s the important part.

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. It’s been a while since I purchased my first boat, and I don’t know much about what’s out there, but my general comment would be buy the best boat you can afford.  Don’t spare the horses.  Talk to people in a local canoe and kayak club, and get their recommendations on brands. Tell them what you want to do with the boat–that’s the important part.

I’ve been a kayaker for a while now, but just recently my new girlfriend wanted a canoe for us.  Have been looking for a used Royalite, or Royalex canoe for a couple months — just today we found it! I consulted with other canoe-types in the club, and this Mohawk Nova 16 (or other similar brands/models) seemed to do it all.  It is Royalex.  This is the exact one we got today, used for $500 with four float bags.  Boats like this are sort of "Do It All" dealies. Each time some new person asks "Which Canoe should i get?" i always say ‘Buy a used, decent brand’ and this is the first time i’ve had to try it out. We like this boat!

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. I own both an Old Town Discovery and the Explorer, and find the Old Town is too heavy to carry any distance (not to mention lift). The Explorer is lighter, handles better, and yes, it’s easier on the eyes. The Discovery might plow through rocks better, but takes on water in the slightest chops. I used to own a Coleman, I’m glad it died an ugly rocky death long ago. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/5189/index.htm Reach out and touch a rock – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

The coleman is a good boat for short paddles around a quiet lake once in a while

With a dang, clanging Coleman, the lake’s not going to stay quiet for long. It’s practically a percussion instrument Eddy "Colemans are for keeping beer cool" Rapid.

Response:

It sounds like you’ve been doing your research.  I agree with all your points. About three years ago, I faced the same question.  Like you, I wanted the best for the least.  I purchased a OT Disco158.  I like it fine but if I had the opportunity to make that decision again, I would save a little more money and by the lighter boat with a more efficient hull.  I use it mostly for day paddling with my wife or fishing with my children.  I’ve run a class III in it but don’t suggest it.  I’ve paddled it 32 miles through the Okeefenokee swamp and camped out of it.  I am not interested in getting rid of it but, would not buy another. I understand the Disco169 has a more efficient hull but, it weighs in at a hefty 85lbs. You will find that weight makes more of a difference than you think.  I can car-top my 80lb canoe by myself but "it ain’t pretty."  The yolk makes it easier to carry but it still weighs 80lbs.  A lighter canoe will respond better to corrections/steering and may even be a little faster. If you can stand to wait, I’d recommend it.  You’ll just end up wanting to buy different one in a few years.  I would have by now but I am discovering both sea and whitewater kayaks! Oh yeah, one other thing.  If you really think you’re going to enjoy the sport, don’t give the Coleman too much thought.  You really DO get what you pay for in a canoe. Eric da Grate – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death…    

                        ~* s n i p *~ If you don’t mind the $65 or so shipping charge, try calling one of the companies someone mentioned else mentioned earlier: Rutabaga in Madison, Wisconsin sells LOTS of boats.  They always have new Old Town blems on hand at a greatly reduced rate.  Not a bad deal for a first boat.   They will be getting lots of used boats in another month after their annual "Canoecopia" show; many people will be trading in their boats for something new. Give them a call at 800-472-3353 (800-I-PADDLE) or check out their website:  www.paddlers.com Tell Darren I sent ya. Good luck. — To reply by email, remove mapson. from the edress Check out the links page at this site: www.paddlers.com

Response:

Thank you all for the replies & advice. I realize that researching a purchase like this, then even trying out different boats would be the best of all worlds, but hearing from folks that have been there is also a definite help. Thanks again!

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If the Coleman is the only way you are going to get on the water, do it!  If you want a boat, get one of the others.  Go demo some boats. The newsgroups cannot tell you how you will feel in a boat.  you need to try them.  Borrow a Coleman and then you can feel the pain in your lower back as you haul it to the water.  Then you will be informed. Try a lake boat with a keel in a moving river and learn why a keel is not too swell in moving water.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

patrickatcyberhighwaydotnet

Response:

Hello!

Well hello to you! I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe.

Actually, they aren’t.  Not compared to Old Town, Mad RIver, Mohawk, etc.  I wouldn’t want to hit too many rocks with a coleman.  Aluminum canoes are extremely durable, but, and this is a BIG BUTT, it’s hard to keep the suckers quiet.  Each and every time you place your paddle in the boat, you and every fish within 300 feet will hear the ‘thud’. I hear the Boy Scouts using them all the time at Upper Priest lake in Idaho…very noisy. already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

You live around here in Spokane?  You join the Spokane Canoe and Kayak Club yet?  I’m the newsletter editor.  We’re having our largest meeting/auction/potluck of the year come February 26th — next friday. If you wanna see a LOT of activity, come see it.  Email me if you want more info.

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For the money you’re looking to spend, I would suggest you test paddle an OT Penobscot 17.  I’ve used mine quite a bit on lakes in minneapolis and in the BWCA.  It’s got moderate initial stability, fantastic secondary stability.  It has no rocker so it tracks like a arrow, but turns like a pig.  Leaning into a turn can give you a good bit of effective rocker.  Its a great tripping boat.

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Tom, I was in your position a few years ago, let me tell you what I bought. I found that the best tradeoff for weight, durability, and cost, for lake and occasional class I/II rivers is fiberglass.  Not the cheap chopper gun variety, but a canoe made up of decent sheet materials.  I chose a Wenonah, largely because I have a great local dealer who sells them (as well as Mad River). Fiberglass advantages are hull stiffness without bulk which = paddling efficiency, no flex while paddling, easily repairable if it does become damaged, etc.  Fiberglass slips across rocks in a low water condition much better than aluminum – avoid that material at all costs if you plan on running low water.  About the only disadvantage is that the gel coat looks beautiful when new, and quickly gets scraped up pretty bad – but that means you’re actually USING the boat, doesn’t it? Your ideal boat in a plastic would be royalex – much lighter than the Old Town crosslink.  It’s well worth the upgrade cost.  I see tons of the Discovery boats for sale – and no royalex boats for sale!! You don’t find many (good) canoes for sale, because most people have no reason to sell them! They’re not that expensive, and last a lifetime with reasonable care. Good luck! Lou – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe.

Yes, it has been done a lot, infact I bet a search on dejanews (www.dejanews.com) would answer most if not all your questions. The coleman is a good boat for short paddles around a quiet lake once in a while, or for giving to a scout troop to learn in (cheap and nigh on industructible).  I have an old town discovery 164 which is about the same as the penobscott, just weighs more… a lot more on a long portage. Personally I’d look around for a used good boat, and stay away from the colemans. Hope this helps Rich Johnson Enfield Nova Scotia Canada

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For flatwater, class I and Class II a good quality fiberglass (cloth, not spray in chopper gun) canoe would be the best bet.  I’d look for a used one, some places (like Rutabaga in Madison, WI and Piragis in ELY, MN) sell a number of used boats like that.  A new We-No-Nah in Tufweave (fiberglass like) can be had for $8-900.  Western Canoeing has similar boats.  Used Kevlar could be in the same range, used fiberglass less. These would work for Class I, not good for Class III, Class II depends on skill level.  For mostly whitewater, Royalex is a better choice, but maybe you can borrow a canoe for those infrequent forays?  It will be heavier and harder to paddle.  Coleman’s are a poor design, Discovery’s are (in the 16′ 9" and 17′ 4" versions) an okay design, but overy heavy and don’t have the long term durability of Royalex. Aluminum is a fine material for flatwater, as good or better than plastic, but can be dangerous in whitewater and a pain in shallow rivers as it tends to stick to rocks, so it’s easy to get stuck and broach. I’d rather (actually I do) have a 17′ Grumman than a Coleman or Discovery. I’d look for a quality fiberglass or used Kevlar boat from We-No-Nah, Mad River, Western, Sawyer. — Andrew Gooding

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Question:

I have only read one article on anything close to a home-made +ACI-braided+ACI- leader.  It is a section on +ACI-furled+ACI- leader in the book titled +ACI- Micro Patterns+ACI- by Darrel Martin.  Though a book about fishing flies sizes 16 or smaller, this section may be of help to you in terms of method and materials.  Give it a try anyway. tight lines. jimmy

+AD4-Please accept my apologies for the previous message – it appears there is +AD4-some problem with my service provider. +AD4- +AD4-I am looking at what woule be involved in braiding my own fly lines from +AD4-mono for salt water/suf type situations. As far as I can determine, getting +AD4-the weight of the line itself right is one of the major obstacles (to +AD4-ensure that the line is balanced to the rod, but what other problems am i +AD4-likely to come up against? +AD4- +AD4-Does anyone else have any experience in this area? +AD4- +AD4-TIA, +AD4- +AD4-    Vic

Response:

Home braided fly lines are the ideal compliment to hand whittled tapered leaders…. I remember grandpa out on the porch braiding up fly lines for the whole damned neighborhood. He’d do a line fer ya in exchange for a bottle of Mead back during prohibition. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Here we go again, the first liar doesn’t stand a chance.  Did he whittle them out of a solid block? — Ernie Harrison Want To Tie Tapered leaders? Go To: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh/knots – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Home braided fly lines are the ideal compliment to hand whittled tapered leaders…. I remember grandpa out on the porch braiding up fly lines for the whole damned neighborhood. He’d do a line fer ya in exchange for a bottle of Mead back during prohibition. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Must have been one hell of a leader to fetch such a high price.  People went to jail for that, you know. jimmy

+AD4-Home braided fly lines are the ideal compliment to hand whittled tapered +AD4-leaders…. +AD4- +AD4-I remember grandpa out on the porch braiding up fly lines for the whole +AD4-damned neighborhood. +AD4- +AD4-He’d do a line fer ya in exchange for a bottle of Mead back during +AD4-prohibition. +AD4- +AD4— +AD4-TimW, Halfordian Golfer +AD4AIg-Guilt replaced the creel…+ACI- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4-

Response:

I am looking at what woule be involved in braiding my own fly lines from mono for salt water/suf type situations. As far as I can determine, getting the weight of the line itself right is one of the major obstacles (to ensure that the line is balanced to the rod, but what other problems am i likely to come up against?

Friction drag in the air seems the main problem. For either unit weight or unit length, braided mono fly line would have much more surface than standard plastic line, thus incur much more drag in the air. You would probably need an unusual fly rod to be able to aerialize it for any cast longer than that available with a standard line. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

Please accept my apologies for the previous message – it appears there is some problem with my service provider. I am looking at what woule be involved in braiding my own fly lines from mono for salt water/suf type situations. As far as I can determine, getting the weight of the line itself right is one of the major obstacles (to ensure that the line is balanced to the rod, but what other problems am i likely to come up against? Does anyone else have any experience in this area? TIA,    Vic

Hi Vic, I experimented along these lines ( pardon the pun ! ) for quite a while. Practically None of the results were satistactory. It was very complex and time consuming, and I could hardly cast the results.  The best result was with braided terylene cord. I unravelled this and plaited the end down to a taper.  It was a terrible mess about but it works OK. It also floats of itself without dressing etc. In the meantime I reckon one is better off buying a line than trying to make one. The experiments with mono just cost me a lot of time for nothing really. There is also some braided cord available which I think is courlene, which gave fairly good results, I am still playing about with this. Hope this helps. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

Please accept my apologies for the previous message – it appears there is some problem with my service provider. I am looking at what woule be involved in braiding my own fly lines from mono for salt water/suf type situations. As far as I can determine, getting the weight of the line itself right is one of the major obstacles (to ensure that the line is balanced to the rod, but what other problems am i likely to come up against? Does anyone else have any experience in this area? TIA,     Vic

Response:

Question:

Because there are so many models of  fly lines available, selection can get pretty confusing.  I have a huge amount of info about fly lines on the Tech Info page of my web site.  I’d suggest you punch up the following address: "http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish/LineSpec.html"  and then click on the hyperlink "Line Tapers" and read that section.  It covers the subject pretty thoroughly.

To Dan, Bill, and all the others in this thread: Thank you, thank you, thank you!  Dan’s web page on line tapers and design specs is a *wonderful* resource for deciding on line types.  I think I’m starting to understand what kind of line I’ll be needing for the small streams and lakes I’ll be fishing. It’s good to see that newsgroups still have good folks who can provide really useful information these days.  I really appreciate the help. Thanks again, Joe G. Tehachapi, CA

Response:

speaking for myself…a weight forward is not necessary on small streams. In fact, it will kind of splash down and make a lot of noise, I only yuse a weight forward for long hauls and big poppers.  for small streams stick with the doublt taper and in five years you can turn it around and use the other end. If you don’t really know how much money to spend, econmize, but take care of your lines with dressing for a long life….john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m still using the first fly line I’ve ever gotten (received as a gift), which is a 3M DT-6-F.  Luckily, it happened to match the noodle-ey rod I learned on, and when I got good enough to move up a notch and buy a pretty good graphite rod (St. Croix), I just moved the whole setup to the new rod. But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. But I’m overwhelmed with the choices!  I’ve read all the ads in my Orvis and LL Bean catalogs, as well as hit a couple of web pages, but I’m still at a loss.  What’s the real scoop?  Is a $40 line really that much better than a $12 one?  I honestly don’t know, since I’ve only ever used my 3M cheapie line. I’d love to hear some real-world experiences, so I can maybe whittle down the choices a bit, and choose the right line for me.  Can you folks help out a not-so-newbie-but-still-ignorant-about-fly-lines?  I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks in advance. Joe G. Tehachapi, CA

Response:

I agree with staying with a DT line in small waters.   A good quality fly line is worth the money, it will float higher and longer and will not crack and soak water as a cheap line will. Good Fishing; Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. Hi Joseph, I know there are those who will disagree with me on this one, but if you intend fishing *small*/*medium* streams with a floating line, then I would go for a double taper every time for the sake of superior presentation.  A weight forward line will give you an easier cast when you are looking for a bit extra distance, without too much emphasis on the presentation. FWIW thats what I think. — Bill

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I cut a DT line in half and put it on a reel for use on small streams.  My son took it to the Lamar River in Yellowstone without knowing he only had 1/2 of a line.  It was cold and he had to wade over the top of his hip waders to reach the places where the fish were holding.  Ask him what he thinks of cutting a line in half.   — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail GO TO http://www.ccnet.com/~emh FOR ECONOMY WADING BOOT PLANS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Another reason to buy a DT:  Cut it in half, you’ve now got two lines and since you’re fishing small streams, you’re not going to be holding 45 feet of line in the air…   You don’t have to cut the line in two to get the equivalent of two lines, just reverse it when one end gets worn. Willi

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You should purchase the best line you can afford.  Cheap floating lines soon become sink tips, and full sinking lines.  If you have a local shop ask if you can cast some.  They generally have some lines on demo reels.  See which feel best on your rod.  I like stay away from the Cortland Lazer line.  SA has many very good lines, and get a good line cleaner when you get the line. Good Luck

Response:

  Another reason to buy a DT:  Cut it in half, you’ve now got two lines and since you’re fishing small streams, you’re not going to be holding 45 feet of line in the air…

  You don’t have to cut the line in two to get the equivalent of two lines, just reverse it when one end gets worn. Willi

Response:

speaking for myself…a weight forward is not necessary on small streams. In fact, it will kind of splash down and make a lot of noise, I only yuse a weight forward for long hauls and big poppers.  for small streams stick with the doublt taper and in five years you can turn it around and use the other end. If you don’t really know how much money to spend, econmize, but take care of your lines with dressing for a long life….john

The statement John makes about WF being less delicate is no longer *necessarily* true.  If the WF has a short front taper (~4ft.) then it will be less delicate and will disturb the water more than a standard DT line.  If it has a front taper of ~6ft. it will be just as delicate as the standard DT which also have ~6ft. of front taper.  There are so many different variations available of both, that it’s no longer a valid generality about WF vs. DT lines.  In the Cortland lines, the WF is *more* delicate than their DT because in that brand the front taper of the WF is considerably longer than the taper on their DT.  In this thread, Bill Kienne recommends using the Cortland DT line because it has a shorter taper than the WF in that brand.  You need to know how long the front taper is on both types of lines of them to judge the delicacy you can expect.  Again, I’d recommend a look at my web page on fly lines (http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish/LineSpec.html) for more info about tapers and how they affect the performance of the line. Another caution, if you decide on the DT for the sake of economy, be sure to turn the line around every 6 months to be able to use both tapers. If you wait 5 years to turn it around, the unused end of the DT will be ruined from being coiled so tightly on the reel. I second John’s recommendation to clean and dress your lines for longer life.                                 hope this helps,                                       Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m still using the first fly line I’ve ever gotten (received as a gift), which is a 3M DT-6-F.  Luckily, it happened to match the noodle-ey rod I learned on, and when I got good enough to move up a notch and buy a pretty good graphite rod (St. Croix), I just moved the whole setup to the new rod. But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. But I’m overwhelmed with the choices!  I’ve read all the ads in my Orvis and LL Bean catalogs, as well as hit a couple of web pages, but I’m still at a loss.  What’s the real scoop?  Is a $40 line really that much better than a $12 one?  I honestly don’t know, since I’ve only ever used my 3M cheapie line. I’d love to hear some real-world experiences, so I can maybe whittle down the choices a bit, and choose the right line for me.  Can you folks help out a not-so-newbie-but-still-ignorant-about-fly-lines?  I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks in advance. Joe G. Tehachapi, CA  Another reason to buy a DT:  Cut it in half, you’ve now got two lines and since you’re fishing small streams, you’re not going to be holding 45 feet of line in the air…

Hi All, We recommend double tapers for short to medium casting on streams. You can turn the line around ever season to get double the value. Double tapers have shorter front tapers, so they load up the rod better with very little line out past the tip. I don’t recommend cutting the line in half unless your reel is too small. From #3 to #5 this works well, but at a #6 we go to weight forward line as those larger rods are used on lakes and larger rivers. Besides, a double taper #6 floater will take up a lot of room on a reel, leaving little or no space for backing. I like the Scientific Angler Mastery Head Start line at $29.95 (WF only) or the Cortland Peach 444 line (DT or WF) at $36 for the best values in fly lines. Below this price level  you get into lines that don’t shoot very well. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m still using the first fly line I’ve ever gotten (received as a gift), which is a 3M DT-6-F.  Luckily, it happened to match the noodle-ey rod I learned on, and when I got good enough to move up a notch and buy a pretty good graphite rod (St. Croix), I just moved the whole setup to the new rod. But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. But I’m overwhelmed with the choices!  I’ve read all the ads in my Orvis and LL Bean catalogs, as well as hit a couple of web pages, but I’m still at a loss.  What’s the real scoop?  Is a $40 line really that much better than a $12 one?  I honestly don’t know, since I’ve only ever used my 3M cheapie line. I’d love to hear some real-world experiences, so I can maybe whittle down the choices a bit, and choose the right line for me.  Can you folks help out a not-so-newbie-but-still-ignorant-about-fly-lines?  I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks in advance.

Hi Joe, Whether you get a better presentation from a DT or a WF line depends on the front taper of the line and varies from manufacturer to manufacturer.  Most people believe you get a better presentation with the DT lines because they have a longer front taper than the WF lines. It used to be common for WF lines to have ~4ft. long front tapers and DT to have ~6ft. long front tapers.   That is no longer necessarily so.  The Orvis WF and DT lines (with the exception of specialty lines) have exactly the same specs for the first 37 ft.(6ft. long front tapers).  SA supposedly changed their tapers a couple of years ago to similar specs.  Cortland however has 10ft. to as much as an 18ft.of front taper on some of their WF lines and ~8ft. on their DT lines.  Bill Kienne may be able to give us better specifics on the Cortland and SA lines. So if you get an Orvis or SA line, the WF will be just as delicate as the DT line.  With a Cortland line the WF will be *more delicate* than their DT line. In all cases the WF will allow you to make longer casts if you decide to fish Lake Crowley, the Mammoth Lakes, or the June Lakes Loop area.   The only time I recommend a DT line anymore is for making long (60 ft or so) roll casts which are much more difficult to do with a WF line (hard to put enough energy into the skinny runny line of a WF to turn over the belly section). Because there are so many models of  fly lines available, selection can get pretty confusing.  I have a huge amount of info about fly lines on the Tech Info page of my web site.  I’d suggest you punch up the following address: "http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish/LineSpec.html"  and then click on the hyperlink "Line Tapers" and read that section.  It covers the subject pretty thoroughly.                              Hope this helps,                                      Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

Response:

I’m still using the first fly line I’ve ever gotten (received as a gift), which is a 3M DT-6-F.  Luckily, it happened to match the noodle-ey rod I learned on, and when I got good enough to move up a notch and buy a pretty good graphite rod (St. Croix), I just moved the whole setup to the new rod.

Joe,  You’ll find that roll-cast pickups, which you’ll use a lot on small to medium sized streams, are much easier with a double-taper….A GOOD double-taper….and unfortunately…the $40+ lines ARE a better made line than the real cheapies.  You can throw a line pretty well with a few of the better cheapies, but you’ll really notice a vast improvement in your casting with a better line….Ultra3…Cortland_SL..Orvis’s Hy-Float floater.  Try a couple before you buy if you can…they all are slightly different in their casting characteristics….I forgot the Triangle-Tapers!     You’ll enjoy the whole experience more with a better line, steve

Response:

I would not go with a WF but stay with the DT. The DT has a much better presentation on small to medium streams.

You think so?  I was hoping to be able to cast upstream a bit further, and i thought maybe a WF line would help me.  But if the DT is better for all-around angling in small streams, I guess I’ll stick with that. Thus the reason I carry at least two spools. Alas lets not forget the sinking. So there are three spools to get.

Argh.  After I got hooked on fly fishing, I bit the bullet and bought an Orvis Battenkill 5/6 reel.  It’s a good, solid reel, but I couldn’t afford the durn extra spools, so I’ll have to wait until I’m good enough to justify the extra spool costs.  If I knew then what I know now, maybe I would have saved the bucks on the reel, and bought a cheaper reel body that came with cheaper spools.  Live and learn.     But what I think you’re asking is what brand to use?? I have had good luck with CORTLAND, and ORVIS.

Yes.  There are so many brand names and it’s pretty confusing.  When it comes to spin-casting, I’ve tried just about any line out there, because it’s just a matter of $5-$15 tops for different styles/makes/brands of monofilament (and even for braided lines).  But when I’m going to drop $40-$50 on ONE fly line, I want to try to educate myself a little more. It may not be a big investment for some folks, but for me, I’ve gotta save my pennies for a while to drop the money for my own toys (I have a baby son whose priorities are a little higher than my own right now). What I’m looking for is real-world experiences from fly fishers who are more experienced than me, so I won’t get stuck with a lemon of a fly line that I’ll have to live with for a couple of seasons. Thanks for the help, James. Joe G. Tehachapi, CA

Response:

I would agree with you Bill.  I fish the Eastern and Western Sierras and a double taper is all I ever use.   — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail GO TO http://www.ccnet.com/~emh FOR ECONOMY WADING BOOT PLANS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. Hi Joseph, I know there are those who will disagree with me on this one, but if you intend fishing *small*/*medium* streams with a floating line, then I would go for a double taper every time for the sake of superior presentation.  A weight forward line will give you an easier cast when you are looking for a bit extra distance, without too much emphasis on the presentation. FWIW thats what I think. — Bill

Response:

Joe,     I would not go with a WF but stay with the DT. The DT has a much better presentation on small to medium streams. For bigger water and high winds I would use a WF. Thus the reason I carry at least two spools. Alas lets not forget the sinking. So there are three spools to get.     But what I think you’re asking is what brand to use?? I have had good luck with CORTLAND, and ORVIS. Cortland 444 I found to be a great line and it has the specifics of the line printed on it so if you ever take it off your real you will be able to tell what the heck it was. I find my lines usually last a couple of seasons with proper care. So protect your investment (about $40.00 to $50.00) with a good line care product.     Also I found putting out about $40.00 for a fly line is well worth it I had some bad experiences with the less expensive brands. If you plan on practicing your casting on anything but water I would keep the old line to get beat up instead of the new one. Hope this helps.

Response:

But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing.

Hi Joseph, I know there are those who will disagree with me on this one, but if you intend fishing *small*/*medium* streams with a floating line, then I would go for a double taper every time for the sake of superior presentation.  A weight forward line will give you an easier cast when you are looking for a bit extra distance, without too much emphasis on the presentation. FWIW thats what I think. — Bill

Response:

Joseph I posted a similar question a couple of months ago and was inundated with responses (I ended up getting a Cortland 444 which is an excellent line). Try going to www.dejanews.com and type in "floating lines" in the search box. You will be able to read the (considerable) replies I got. — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m still using the first fly line I’ve ever gotten (received as a gift), which is a 3M DT-6-F.  Luckily, it happened to match the noodle-ey rod I learned on, and when I got good enough to move up a notch and buy a pretty good graphite rod (St. Croix), I just moved the whole setup to the new rod. But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. But I’m overwhelmed with the choices!  I’ve read all the ads in my Orvis and LL Bean catalogs, as well as hit a couple of web pages, but I’m still at a loss.  What’s the real scoop?  Is a $40 line really that much better than a $12 one?  I honestly don’t know, since I’ve only ever used my 3M cheapie line. I’d love to hear some real-world experiences, so I can maybe whittle down the choices a bit, and choose the right line for me.  Can you folks help out a not-so-newbie-but-still-ignorant-about-fly-lines?  I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks in advance. Joe G. Tehachapi, CA

Response:

Joe- My preference would be a Lee Wulff triangle taper line. At short distances it casts like a double taper, it roll casts beautifully and, when you really need it, it will let you reach out as with a weight forward line. It ain’t cheap, but with care I have over ten years on my first one!In – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m still using the first fly line I’ve ever gotten (received as a gift), which is a 3M DT-6-F.  Luckily, it happened to match the noodle-ey rod I learned on, and when I got good enough to move up a notch and buy a pretty good graphite rod (St. Croix), I just moved the whole setup to the new rod. But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. But I’m overwhelmed with the choices!  I’ve read all the ads in my Orvis and LL Bean catalogs, as well as hit a couple of web pages, but I’m still at a loss.  What’s the real scoop?  Is a $40 line really that much better than a $12 one?  I honestly don’t know, since I’ve only ever used my 3M cheapie line. I’d love to hear some real-world experiences, so I can maybe whittle down the choices a bit, and choose the right line for me.  Can you folks help out a not-so-newbie-but-still-ignorant-about-fly-lines?  I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks in advance. Joe G. Tehachapi, CA

Response:

I’m still using the first fly line I’ve ever gotten (received as a gift), which is a 3M DT-6-F.  Luckily, it happened to match the noodle-ey rod I learned on, and when I got good enough to move up a notch and buy a pretty good graphite rod (St. Croix), I just moved the whole setup to the new rod. But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. But I’m overwhelmed with the choices!  I’ve read all the ads in my Orvis and LL Bean catalogs, as well as hit a couple of web pages, but I’m still at a loss.  What’s the real scoop?  Is a $40 line really that much better than a $12 one?  I honestly don’t know, since I’ve only ever used my 3M cheapie line. I’d love to hear some real-world experiences, so I can maybe whittle down the choices a bit, and choose the right line for me.  Can you folks help out a not-so-newbie-but-still-ignorant-about-fly-lines?  I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks in advance. Joe G. Tehachapi, CA

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m still using the first fly line I’ve ever gotten (received as a gift), which is a 3M DT-6-F.  Luckily, it happened to match the noodle-ey rod I learned on, and when I got good enough to move up a notch and buy a pretty good graphite rod (St. Croix), I just moved the whole setup to the new rod. But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. But I’m overwhelmed with the choices!  I’ve read all the ads in my Orvis and LL Bean catalogs, as well as hit a couple of web pages, but I’m still at a loss.  What’s the real scoop?  Is a $40 line really that much better than a $12 one?  I honestly don’t know, since I’ve only ever used my 3M cheapie line. I’d love to hear some real-world experiences, so I can maybe whittle down the choices a bit, and choose the right line for me.  Can you folks help out a not-so-newbie-but-still-ignorant-about-fly-lines?  I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks in advance. Joe G. Tehachapi, CA

  Another reason to buy a DT:  Cut it in half, you’ve now got two lines and since you’re fishing small streams, you’re not going to be holding 45 feet of line in the air…

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone recommend sources of "formulas" for tying leaders. I purchase a Maxima "kit" from Cabela’s which was advertised to contain "instructions" but was told by their Customer sevice rep that the mfg. does not supply such instructions. I have an old Orvis formula chart an article from Fly Fisherman which covers a few George Harvey formulas but would like to find something more extensive. Ideas? Tight Lines Ted Miller Can anyone recommend sources of "formulas" for tying leaders. I purchase a Maxima "kit" from Cabela’s which was advertised to contain "instructions" but was told by their Customer sevice rep that the mfg. does not supply such instructions. I have an old Orvis formula chart an article from Fly Fisherman which covers a few George Harvey formulas but would like to find something more extensive. Ideas? Tight Lines Ted Miller

Ted: For what it’s worth, I’ve been using George Harvey formula leaders for many years, mostly in the east but on many western rivers as well, and have found these leaders to be entirely satisfactory.  Of course, on stream I end up making all sorts of adjustments, depending on what I’m fishing and what the water is like, so I’m not sure what "formula" I would have at any given time.  The Harvey formulas are good starting points, however. Mark Faulkner

Response:

Hi, One of my favorites, especially for Atlantic Salmon. 55 % Butt (heavy section)(mostly of 1 peice, can be 2) 25% Tapered Sections ( 4 short decending weights) 20% tippet (1 section) This is an easy formula to remember – 100" leader, and easy to work up or down in proportion For example 55" – 30 lb,   25" ( approx – 6" each) – 25lb, 20lb,15lb, 12lb,   20" – 8 lb. Works for me. Dennis Grant Atlantic FLy Fishing School Brookfield, NS

Response:

Might also look at http://www.flyshop.com/Tactics/01-97Leaders/index.html for more information.

Response:

Can anyone recommend sources of "formulas" for tying leaders. I purchase a Maxima "kit" from Cabela’s which was advertised to contain "instructions" but was told by their Customer sevice rep that the mfg. does not supply such instructions. I have an old Orvis formula chart an article from Fly Fisherman which covers a few George Harvey formulas but would like to find something more extensive. Ideas? Tight Lines Ted Miller

I noticed that some of those pocket version books such us "Guide of knots for leaders" have a lot of info that can be useful.   They are laminated so you could have them with you when you are fishing.  I am pretty sure you could get them in your local fishing store.   Arek.

Response:

Ted; I bought the Maxima Kit from Cabela’s three years ago and it did come with a table of tapers. Can’t imagine why they arn’t putting it in the package now. I am providing several typical taper formulas in this posting and if you want others I will follow up based on any description of use that you provide. Enjoy! Regards, Ken Table ! Maxima Chameleon Leader size to Hook Size Size    Test    Dia     Hook 6x      2lb.    .oo5    18-24 5x      3lb.    .006    14-20 4x      4lb.    .007    10-16 3x      5lb.    .008    6-12 2x      6lb.    .009    2-10 1x      8lb.    .010    2/0-6 01x     10lb.   .012    4/0-4 02x     12lb.   .013    6/0-2 Join sections with blood knot Table 2 Maxima 60/20/20 Tapered Leader Formulas 5-7 Weight Lines 10′ Leader Test            Dia             Length 25              .020                    40" 20              .017                    27" 15              .015    (4")       (5")       6" 12 (02x)                .013    (4")       (5")       6" 10 (01x)                .012    (4")       (5")       6" 8 (1x)          .010    (4")       (5")       6" 6 (2x)          .009    (4")       (5")       24" 4 (4x)          .007    (4")       (24")       3 (5x)          .006    (24") 5-7 Weight Lines 12′ Leader Test            Dia             Length 25              .020                    52" 20              .017                    35" 15              .015            (5")       6" 12 (02x)                .013            (5")       6" 10 (01x)                .012            (5")       6" 8 (1x)          .010            (5")       6" 6 (2x)          .009            (5")       6" 4 (4x)          .007            (5")       (28") 3 (5x)          .006            (28") 8-9 Weight Lines 10′ Leader Test            Dia             Length 30              .022                    44" 25              .020                    27" 20              .017    (5")       (6")       8"" 15              .015    (5")       (6")       8" 12 (02x)                .013    (5")       (6")       8" 10 (01x)                .012    (5")       (6")       24" 8 (1x)          .010    (5")       (24") 6 (2x)          .009    (24") 8-9 Weight Lines 12′ Leader Test            Dia             Length 30              .022                    52" 25              .020                    35" 20              .017            (6")       7"" 15              .015            (6")       7" 12 (02x)                .013            (6")       7" 10 (01x)                .012            (6")       7" 8 (1x)          .010            (6")       28" 6 (2x)          .009            (28") – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone recommend sources of "formulas" for tying leaders. I purchase a Maxima "kit" from Cabela’s which was advertised to contain "instructions" but was told by their Customer sevice rep that the mfg. does not supply such instructions. I have an old Orvis formula chart an article from Fly Fisherman which covers a few George Harvey formulas but would like to find something more extensive. Ideas? Tight Lines Ted Miller

Response:

Question:

Anybody know of good flyfishing waters in or near Steamboat CO??? Pointers to the best flyshop in the area are also welcome…. Thanks, Lee Butler

Response:

Anybody know of good flyfishing waters in or near Steamboat CO??? Pointers to the best flyshop in the area are also welcome…. Thanks, Lee Butler

all of ‘em. TimW

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