Question:

Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband.

In past discussions here, it came up that quite a few times the woman bought her own ring or it was a family heirloom on her side, IOW, didn’t come from the man..  

Response:

Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband. In past discussions here, it came up that quite a few times the woman bought her own ring or it was a family heirloom on her side, IOW, didn’t come from the man..  

In my case I paid for the setting and we used a stone she had (grandmothers, perhaps? I don’t recall and it doesn’t matter). I didn’t get the setting back; she never offered and I never asked because I didn’t want it. The setting was indeed a gift from me to her so I feel I have no claims on it. I would not have accepted it if she had offered it to me. My ring was a custom piece of jewelry we picked out together, though I paid for it so technically it wasn’t a gift from her. I gave it back to her without thinking twice about it. The fewer things I have in my life that remind me of her the better.

Response:

Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband. In past discussions here, it came up that quite a few times the woman bought her own ring or it was a family heirloom on her side, IOW, didn’t come from the man..

EVERYTHING comes from da man, silly girl!    (If you don’t believe me, ask Andre or Ronnie44dd.   Whattas a matter with you, anyway)?    :-)

Response:

Anyway, I don’t look too bad in black and white stripes and I will trust me!!!!! I would cherish the time away from him!!!

If he is this bad, you can’t leave your children to his care, I know it is tempting to get revenge on him but think of your children, they will suffer more if you went to prison.  Get out, and get your children out.  There are organisations for abused wives, get one on your side and have them help you work this out. Mandy

Response:

Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have until Dec 3 to survive through this. At that time, we have a sole possesion of the house hearing. My lawyer and I are also filing charges as he has blatently,gone against the civil stay away order!!!!  I am trying to stay here for my boys who are 19, 17 and 15 now. My 15 year old is having problems i.e. skipping school and smoking marijuanna. To my husband, it is all about money and making sure he will not have to give me one red cent or the house!!!  He is neglecting his boys other than to take them camping once a month or fishing. HE IS NEVER HERE EVEN ON HIS DAYS OFF!!! I believe he is abusing his children by not being here and also not doing one thing in this house at all!!!  (and I am talking about necessary repairs!) He thinks he is doing that to spite me, but it is effecting them as well!!!! He said to me last night that "He can’t believe I am still here!" because he knows he has done and said almost everything possible short of just coming out and killing me. Little does he know he almost has. He wants me to break! He knows I cant stand my house to be litterally filthy and it is daily! He wont tell the boys to do anything, because he wants to remain the good guy AT ALL TIMES!  He loves it when I get into an argument with them…becuase he feels that it is pushing them to his side!!!! He wanted me  , no he begged me to go to work, and now he is using that against me also with the kids! Last night he even said all I was doing was running up the lawyers bill! Meanwhile, I took him off my flight privledges (so he can no longer fly for free) and now he is trying to hold me in contempt of court as he filed a cross order after I did about taking me and the children off his insurance (which he threatened to do!)  These are flight privledges and if someone is on a flight and drinks too much or makes even a wierd comment or is loud, I know of employees who have lost their free flights and some who have even been fired. My lawyer wants me to put him back on just because and I say no way!!!!! He will try and do something more to me and that would be just about it!!!!!!   Why should I let him fly for free, when he took away my means of transportation…. I DONT THINK SO!!! Anyway, I don’t look too bad in black and white stripes and I will trust me!!!!! I would cherish the time away from him!!!

Response:

The real abuse here is the abuse that you did to yourself by staying so long.  I hope you can learn to love yourself as much as you deserve. bogey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about????? Blocking you in the bathroom and kitchen under protest…not letting you out until you scream for help. How about???? Throwing coffee mugs and bottles at you How about???? Pushing you down with your body and punching you several times in the arm, back and face. Then forceably having sex with you like an ANIMAL the next night. How about??? Trying to sleep and he would wake me up with his (*&(&**(& trying to put it in while I was asleep!!! and then when I would leave to try to get sleep, he told me I wasnt allowed back in the room until I was ready to have sex with How about???? Forceably taking car keys away from you and telling you you will never drive this car again How about??? Stalking you at work and when he cant find you, driving irratically, knocking down a light pole and getting your car stuck on the cement holder. Then he came to where I work and started screaming at me and that was monitored by a supervisor in a security hallway!!! How about??? Telling your kids, your friends, and your mother you are a whore!!!! He even told the police when I called them that I was having an on going affair!!!! How about??? Taking the circut breaker out of the AC on a 90 degree day and going away for a few days and taking the timer off a whirlpool tub so you cant enjoy a 12 minute soak. How about???? Telling you and your children that you are not doing one more thing in the house until you find out if its yours and allowing the ceiling to fall in in the dining room and not even clean it up or even pick up your dirty underwear in the bathroom or do one dish,etc etc etc. Tonight he even said to me he cant believe I am still here!!!!!! because he told me to get ready for round two…. I may not survive!!!!! How about??? Telling your wife, a stay at home mom for ten years, and his children, that He was the bread winner and I did nothing for ten years but putsy around the house!!! and HOW ABOUT now after ten years of me taking care of the children totally because he worked shifts that all of a sudden now that we are getting divorced…he can get a daylight job????? Told me just wait and see who gets cutody!!!!!! How about??? Daily verbal abuse about how I look when I go to work!!!!! How about??? Him telling my sons I got a lawyer and I am jacking up his bill with what I am I am sorry….I just cant take it anymore…I had to vent here….

Response:

Leaving ======= General guidelines for leaving a spouse in the US. So you decided to end the marriage and are leaving the house. When it comes time to leave, there are certain things you should do in a certain order, to avoid confrontations with or violence from the spouse. Here’s how to do it. Some rules to follow when doing all these things: – Be polite when working with your spouse – Be fair. Take only 1/2 of what you both own. – It may be a good idea to buy a cassette recorder and put it in your shirt pocket when talking with your spouse. This is not usually admissable in court but it will give you some leverage against the spouse if they are acting loony, violent, or unfair. If the judge asks "Do you have proof your spouse is a loony?" you can mention the tapes. – If you think the spouse will get violent, call the police. Hide around the corner and when they come to the house, then go to the house. Tell the police you need them to watch your spouse while you pack. – If the spouse attacks you (even if a wife attacks a man) MAKE A POLICE REPORT. If you don’t have proof (a police report), it will not help you. Finding an apartment Make your budget. Find out the net amount of your paycheck you bring home each month (after taxes, you can’t spend the taxes, can you?). Now subtract rent, car insurance, phone, utilities, gas, food, clothes, entertainment, and any other expenses you can think of. If you have money left over, you are doing good. If not, find places to trim expense, like don’t go to the movies, cancel cable/satellite, don’t go out to eat, eat in instead, buy a cheaper car. Now find a cheap apartment and sign a lease. Packing up – You will need to get your names off credit cards VERY quickly, that means moving out first. – Try to pack your most valuable things first, like cash, life insurance policies, stock policies, records for your bank accounts, IRAs, and other retirement accounts. Make sure you pack some pens, pencils and a notebook, you will need these later. If you have joint accounts, take the papers, copy them at the library or somewhere else, then return them to the house. – Try to pack when the other spouse is not there, like when they are not at work, or when they are shopping. Have a friend along with a video camera in case they come home early. Hide your car around the block (it could be seen down the street so don’t hide it there) or use a friends car that is not well known. Pack your stuff in the friend’s car then transfer it to your car in a place the spouse does not go. – Remember to pack a suit, you will need it for court proceedings. Assets ====== Decide what possessions to take with you. Generally the state will divide up all the assets so each spouse gets an equal share based on the current sale value of the asset (like if you sold it at a garage sale). The person who gets the house gets the value of the equity of the house, so they will get a lot less other things. Equity is the assessed value of the house minus the loan amount. It is NOT the value of the house plus the amount you spent to improve it. Generally the state allows you to keep what you had before the marriage, and allows you to keep gifts that were only to you, but this is still part of the "equal share" that the two of you get. Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband. DON’T DO THE NEXT STEPS UNTIL YOU’RE ALL PACKED UP and moved out. Separating Finances The basic finance separation is in several groups: – Assets – Bank accounts – Credit cards/debit card – Retirement accounts – Loans/mortgages 1. Bank accounts First, get your own account, have the statements mailed to work or a trusted friend’s house. You don’t want these new statements discovered by the soon to be ex (STBX). When that is final, figure out what half of the cash assets would be (include all money markets, savings and checking accounts, not retirement or IRA accounts). Take half the cash and put it into your new account. Take your name off the accounts if possible. If you need their signature to do this, call a lawyer and find out if there’s another way to do this. 2. Credit Cards People often run up huge debts on credit cards in anger. First, try to take your name off all credit cards. I was the primary holder of a credit card, which meant I could put my wife’s name on it, and take it off. She couldn’t do anything. If you’re not the primary holder, AND you can’t get your name off a credit card, talk to a lawyer and find out what can be done. If you can’t do that, lower the limit on every credit card to the minimum. You should be able to do this alone, but then again the spouse could raise it up again by themselves. Talk to the CC company to find out who can do what. Try to freeze the cards so no one can use them and tell the CC company you’ve seen suspicious activity on the cards or you think you’re identity has been stolen. As a last resort, cancel the cards if necessary, but TELL THE SPOUSE. You will look bad to the judge if you don’t tell them. Send them a letter so you have paper proof that you told them. 3. Retirement accounts Just start by taking your IRA papers with you. You can sort it all out later in court. Let the other spouse keep their retirement account. 4. Loans/mortgages I don’t know how these are handled. But if you keep your name on the loan you ARE responsible for it, whether you are divorced, separated or not. Try to get your name off the mortgage, but NOT off the title to the house. This is so the other can’t default on the mortgage and ruin your credit. The Car ======= If you each have a car, take the one that you use the most. If you have one car between you, the working spouse will generally get the car. Should you buy a new one? Generally, no, unless you just purchased a brand new car in the past year. Calculate the net worth of the car will help you. Net worth=Value of the car (get it from Kelly Blue Book on the web) – any loan outstanding. Here’s an example. Car A: bought 2 years ago, valued at $15,000, loan left is $13,000, so net worth is $2000. Basically, you have $13,000 in loans to pay off. If you can’t afford it, get a used car worth less than $13,000, say around $7000. Try to make small payments. This will cause you to pay more interest over the life of the loan, but you really need the cash right now. Car B: bought 5 years ago, valued at $5000, no loan outstanding. Net worth is $5000. This is the best deal, since you have no car payment in this case. Car C: new car bought last year, valued at $24,000, loan left: $25,000, net worth=-$1000. Even though this has a net worth, you still have $25,000 left in loans to pay. This is a bad deal because if you sell the car you will still have to pay $1000 to cover the loan and you will not get any money back because it has a negative net worth. Your best bet is to get a $7000 car, pay the extra $1000. Insurance for the used car will be less than for the new car anyway. What will make you look good to the judge: – If you are fair to the other spouse. (Divide assets equally. Don’t take their favorite baseball card collection just to be mean.) – If you don’t hit them, threaten them or damage their property. – If you don’t show bizarre behavior (like damaging the other’s property) – If you keep the spouse informed, like when you cancel the credit cards. – Getting the kids out of a violent home. (You must have PROOF of this violence as a recording, or police report.) What will make you look bad: – Not going to counseling when the spouse does. – Being unfair. – Being angry in court. – If you have a serious illness, like cancer, it will really reduce your chances to get the kids. – If you have a serious illness, like depression, which is not being treated, you will have a lesser chance to get the kids. – Doing drugs. – Having a police record. – Being known as the "one who’s always screaming" by the neighbors. – Having boy/girlfriends before the divorce is final. – Trying to hide assets from the spouse. – Having an affair during the marriage. (Shows lack of commitment.) – Not being real involved with the kids. – If you don’t have a job. – If you have trouble holding a job. Abuse claims Filing a false abuse claim is now illegal in some states, and it is even enforced sometimes. Find out the status of false abuse claims, perhaps by calling the police department. — "Tis better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Response:

Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused. We are still in the same house!!!! They would not give me an extendended PFA against him. He filed a counter and said I was acting irrationally…NO WONDER….but I am not acting irrationally other than being here taking his constant harrasment. THE ONLY REASON I STAY IS BECAUSE MY CHILDREN WANT TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE!!!!!  He could repair the house, FOR THE CHILDREN! It’s not or at least shouldnt be ALL REVENGE AGAINST

ME!!!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused. We are still in the same house!!!! They would not give me an extendended PFA against him. He filed a counter and said I was acting irrationally…NO WONDER….but I am not acting irrationally other than being here taking his constant harrasment. THE ONLY REASON I STAY IS BECAUSE MY CHILDREN WANT TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE!!!!!  He could repair the house, FOR THE CHILDREN! It’s not or at least shouldnt be ALL REVENGE AGAINST ME!!!

SO QUIT YOUR BITCHIN, AND JUST SUE THEIR ASS!!    IT’S THE LATEST NEWAGE FAD….     GO FOR THE GOLD…. "DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED)

Response:

"DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED)

This could be a winner,…do you have an agent? …nevermind,…they’re all lawyers.

Response:

It’s no wonder why women put up and shut up with comments like these!

SO QUIT YOUR BITCHIN, AND JUST SUE THEIR ASS!!    IT’S THE LATEST NEWAGE FAD….     GO FOR THE GOLD…. "DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED) This could be a winner,…do you have an agent? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -…nevermind,…they’re all lawyers.

Response:

IF your children want to stay in the house regardless of the fact that he is mean to you then something is wrong. IF you want to stay in the house regardless of what HE is doing to YOU then there is something VERY WRONG!!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s no wonder why women put up and shut up with comments like these! SO QUIT YOUR BITCHIN, AND JUST SUE THEIR ASS!!    IT’S THE LATEST NEWAGE FAD….     GO FOR THE GOLD…. "DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED) This could be a winner,…do you have an agent? …nevermind,…they’re all lawyers.

Response:

Huh?  How can you even think this about the man you just previously described? I think *you* would be abusive by letting him near your kids. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe he is abusing his children by not being here

Response:

Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused.

We are still in the same house!!!! They would not give me an extendended PFA against him. He filed a counter and said I was acting irrationally…NO WONDER….but I am not acting irrationally other than being here taking his constant harrasment. THE ONLY REASON I STAY IS BECAUSE MY CHILDREN WANT TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE!!!!!  He could repair the house, FOR THE CHILDREN! It’s not or at least shouldnt be ALL REVENGE AGAINST ME!!!

Response:

I have until Dec 3 to survive through this. At that time, we have a sole possesion of the house hearing. My lawyer and I are also filing charges as he has blatently,gone against the civil stay away order!!!!  I am trying to stay here for my boys who are 19, 17 and 15 now. My 15 year old is having problems i.e. skipping school and smoking marijuanna. To my husband, it is all about money and making sure he will not have to give me one red cent or the house!!!  He is neglecting his boys other than to take them camping once a month or fishing. HE IS NEVER HERE EVEN ON HIS DAYS OFF!!! I believe he is abusing his children by not being here and also not doing one thing in this house at all!!!  (and I am talking about necessary repairs!) He thinks he is doing that to spite me, but it is effecting them as well!!!!  He said to me last night that "He can’t believe I am still here!" because he knows he has done and said almost everything possible short of just coming out and killing me. Little does he know he almost has. He wants me to break! He knows I cant stand my house to be litterally filthy and it is daily! He wont tell the boys to do anything, because he wants to remain the good guy AT ALL TIMES!  He loves it when I get into an argument with them…becuase he feels that it is pushing them to his side!!!! He wanted me  , no he begged me to go to work, and now he is using that against me also with the kids! Last night he even said all I was doing was running up the lawyers bill! Meanwhile, I took him off my flight privledges (so he can no longer fly for free) and now he is trying to hold me in contempt of court as he filed a cross order after I did about taking me and the children off his insurance (which he threatened to do!)  These are flight privledges and if someone is on a flight and drinks too much or makes even a wierd comment or is loud, I know of employees who have lost their free flights and some who have even been fired. My lawyer wants me to put him back on just because and I say no way!!!!! He will try and do something more to me and that would be just about it!!!!!!   Why should I let him fly for free, when he took away my means of transportation…. I DONT THINK SO!!! Anyway, I don’t look too bad in black and white stripes and I will trust me!!!!! I would cherish the time away from him!!!

Response:

I can not understand why you take all that shit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about????? Blocking you in the bathroom and kitchen under protest…not letting you out until you scream for help. How about???? Throwing coffee mugs and bottles at you How about???? Pushing you down with your body and punching you several times in the arm, back and face. Then forceably having sex with you like an ANIMAL the next night. How about??? Trying to sleep and he would wake me up with his (*&(&**(& trying to put it in while I was asleep!!! and then when I would leave to try to get sleep, he told me I wasnt allowed back in the room until I was ready to have sex with How about???? Forceably taking car keys away from you and telling you you will never drive this car again How about??? Stalking you at work and when he cant find you, driving irratically, knocking down a light pole and getting your car stuck on the cement holder. Then he came to where I work and started screaming at me and that was monitored by a supervisor in a security hallway!!! How about??? Telling your kids, your friends, and your mother you are a whore!!!! He even told the police when I called them that I was having an on going affair!!!! How about??? Taking the circut breaker out of the AC on a 90 degree day and going away for a few days and taking the timer off a whirlpool tub so you cant enjoy a 12 minute soak. How about???? Telling you and your children that you are not doing one more thing in the house until you find out if its yours and allowing the ceiling to fall in in the dining room and not even clean it up or even pick up your dirty underwear in the bathroom or do one dish,etc etc etc. Tonight he even said to me he cant believe I am still here!!!!!! because he told me to get ready for round two…. I may not survive!!!!! How about??? Telling your wife, a stay at home mom for ten years, and his children, that He was the bread winner and I did nothing for ten years but putsy around the house!!! and HOW ABOUT now after ten years of me taking care of the children totally because he worked shifts that all of a sudden now that we are getting divorced…he can get a daylight job????? Told me just wait and see who gets cutody!!!!!! How about??? Daily verbal abuse about how I look when I go to work!!!!! How about??? Him telling my sons I got a lawyer and I am jacking up his bill with what I am I am sorry….I just cant take it anymore…I had to vent here….

Response:

How about????? Blocking you in the bathroom and kitchen under protest…not letting you out until you scream for help. How about???? Throwing coffee mugs and bottles at you How about???? Pushing you down with your body and punching you several times in the arm, back and face. Then forceably having sex with you like an ANIMAL the next night. How about??? Trying to sleep and he would wake me up with his (*&(&**(& trying to put it in while I was asleep!!! and then when I would leave to try to get sleep, he told me I wasnt allowed back in the room until I was ready to have sex with How about???? Forceably taking car keys away from you and telling you you will never drive this car again How about??? Stalking you at work and when he cant find you, driving irratically, knocking down a light pole and getting your car stuck on the cement holder. Then he came to where I work and started screaming at me and that was monitored by a supervisor in a security hallway!!! How about??? Telling your kids, your friends, and your mother you are a whore!!!! He even told the police when I called them that I was having an on going affair!!!! How about??? Taking the circut breaker out of the AC on a 90 degree day and going away for a few days and taking the timer off a whirlpool tub so you cant enjoy a 12 minute soak. How about???? Telling you and your children that you are not doing one more thing in the house until you find out if its yours and allowing the ceiling to fall in in the dining room and not even clean it up or even pick up your dirty underwear in the bathroom or do one dish,etc etc etc. Tonight he even said to me he cant believe I am still here!!!!!! because he told me to get ready for round two…. I may not survive!!!!! How about??? Telling your wife, a stay at home mom for ten years, and his children, that He was the bread winner and I did nothing for ten years but putsy around the house!!! and HOW ABOUT now after ten years of me taking care of the children totally because he worked shifts that all of a sudden now that we are getting divorced…he can get a daylight job????? Told me just wait and see who gets cutody!!!!!! How about??? Daily verbal abuse about how I look when I go to work!!!!! How about??? Him telling my sons I got a lawyer and I am jacking up his bill with what I am I am sorry….I just cant take it anymore…I had to vent here….

Response:

Once again, here’s the Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition of "abuse": Main Entry: abuse      Pronunciation: &-’by

Question:

Thanks for the info. Bill , that River Runner is exactly what I need . I phoned to order one a few minutes ago and he`s gone for two weeks fishing     I would have got one overnighted to my place but… Thanks Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Jeff, We are using them on small outboards from 4hp to 25hp on the lower America River in Sacramento, California to sneak around the shallow rocky river for stripers. The river has a 5mph speed limit so horse power is not an issue. We are using small boats that run 8′ to 16′ long. Mac’s "River Runner" is what you need. They seem to work well and help reduce prop damage. You can get them directly from Mac’s or you can find them at some boat or marine supplies too. They come in several sizes and are easy to install. Here is the web address: http://www.propsavers.com/ — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com After smashing my prop to bits yesterday I`m seriously considering a prop guard . Any of you using them ? Like em ? Hate em ?  Just like your experiences on performance after the install . I`m not going high speed , just doing a lot of river running and it LOW LOW LOW right now , 2 feet of water in some spots . Ouch ! Thanks Jeff

Response:

Trouble with that is my engine is a 30HP and when the jet pump goes on I lose about 30 % . I would like the jet , but if I`m going to have to go new I might as well sell my outfit and buy a 4.3 L inboard / jet river boat . A Merc 40 HP Jet up here is $ 7300.00 CAN plus taxes . Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You should seriously consider replacing the lower unit with a jet unit. They use them quite a bit in the North West on the rivers there. Just my $0.02 worth After smashing my prop to bits yesterday I`m seriously considering a prop guard . Any of you using them ? Like em ? Hate em ?  Just like your experiences on performance after the install . I`m not going high speed , just doing a lot of river running and it LOW LOW LOW right now , 2 feet of water in some spots . Ouch ! Thanks Jeff

Response:

After smashing my prop to bits yesterday I`m seriously considering a prop guard . Any of you using them ? Like em ? Hate em ?  Just like your experiences on performance after the install . I`m not going high speed , just doing a lot of river running and it LOW LOW LOW right now , 2 feet of water in some spots . Ouch ! Thanks Jeff

Response:

Hi Jeff, We are using them on small outboards from 4hp to 25hp on the lower America River in Sacramento, California to sneak around the shallow rocky river for stripers. The river has a 5mph speed limit so horse power is not an issue. We are using small boats that run 8′ to 16′ long. Mac’s "River Runner" is what you need. They seem to work well and help reduce prop damage. You can get them directly from Mac’s or you can find them at some boat or marine supplies too. They come in several sizes and are easy to install. Here is the web address: http://www.propsavers.com/ — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After smashing my prop to bits yesterday I`m seriously considering a prop guard . Any of you using them ? Like em ? Hate em ?  Just like your experiences on performance after the install . I`m not going high speed , just doing a lot of river running and it LOW LOW LOW right now , 2 feet of water in some spots . Ouch ! Thanks Jeff

Response:

You should seriously consider replacing the lower unit with a jet unit.  They use them quite a bit in the North West on the rivers there. Just my $0.02 worth – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After smashing my prop to bits yesterday I`m seriously considering a prop guard . Any of you using them ? Like em ? Hate em ?  Just like your experiences on performance after the install . I`m not going high speed , just doing a lot of river running and it LOW LOW LOW right now , 2 feet of water in some spots . Ouch ! Thanks Jeff

Response:

Question:

I find that after about six dozen fish that they chew about half the head off the fly. I would like it to be durable enough to last for a full morning’s fishing.

That’s easy, go up to Dodge City and fish with Wayne Knight – the fly will last a year or more<g. — Charlie…

Response:

Willi wonders: Does any one here fish these patterns? I have tied a handful up, primarily the green(summer season) and orange(later evening) colors to see if they had special attractive characteristics for the stated periods of use. I can’t say that I fished them with top confidence, as I share your suspicion of general color theories. Anyway, they caught some fish, but didn’t knock my socks off.                               Tom Littleton

The waters he fished them on are pretty large turbulent waters. I don’t know what the exact area is like where he tested them but it is a large river. There areas of my local waters where I was going to try them are the deeper runs and the pocket water stretches. I’ll try to fish them with SOME confidence. Last fall I was in central/western Wyoming and had a couple days to fish. I stopped in a shop for some information. Since it was fall, the shop owner hadn’t had much business and seemed glad to have someone to talk to. We talked about quite a few things and he gave me some information that, I felt he wouldn’t normally give. It being fall in the Rockies, hatches were limited to sporadic caddis and BWO’s in about a size 20. The olives, he said, brought up the good fish. I asked him what he used and he showed me a large stimulator type fly that was very bright and flashy. The fly was tied on a number 14 stimulator hook which translated into a fly about the size of a normal size 10. I looked at him with some skepticism but bought a couple and went out. The section of river he sent me to carried alot of water even during the low flows typical in the Fall. The area was a series of deep strong runs, filled with large boulders.  I caught a few fish in the morning, then about 11 o’clock the Olives started popping up. I saw occasional rises and switched to a typical Olive imitation tied in a size eighteen. I caught a couple of smaller Browns on the current edges and continued to see an occasional surface feeding trout. The fish that were rising seemed to be smaller fish. I switched over to the fly that the shop owner recommended and I caught a number of sizable fish that came up off the bottom is the heavy current. My guess is that the better trout were feeding on the active and emerging nymphs but weren’t willing to come to the surface through the strong current for such a small fly. The larger attractor pattern, made the trip worthwhile. This isn’t a perfect example of his approach but it is the type of situation where a fly having certain exaggerated visual cues might work well. Willi

Response:

Willi wonders: Does any one here fish these patterns?

I have tied a handful up, primarily the green(summer season) and orange(later evening) colors to see if they had special attractive characteristics for the stated periods of use. I can’t say that I fished them with top confidence, as I share your suspicion of general color theories. Anyway, they caught some fish, but didn’t knock my socks off.                               Tom Littleton

Response:

with a series of flies designed by Gary LaFontaine that he calls his Double Wing series.

I have not experimented with the Double Wing series, but I have been using the Airheadfor several years now with great success, but unlike Gary, do not find it very durable. When I use it on the bedding bluegills I find that after about six dozen fish that they chew about half the head off the fly. I would like it to be durable enough to last for a full morning’s fishing. Big Dale

Response:

Willi, Did you every get the email I sent to you (aka "Rusty Hook")?  Anyway, if you didn’t, here it is again: I’ll probably head up to the Yellowstone area for my vacation, preferably during the clave, but it won’t be due to poor fishing conditions around here. I’ll just be ready for something different by August.

Come on by Stanley this summer, Willi, and we’ll fish for wild cutthroats in places so beautiful they’ll make you eyes bleed. I’ll warn you, though. You’ll have to exert yourself to get there. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Each year I come up with a few things that I’m interested in checking out streamside. This year, I’m looking to get a feel for streamer fishing, fishing a "cast" of wets and I’m thinking about experimenting with a series of flies designed by Gary LaFontaine that he calls his Double Wing series. Although I’m not much of a believer of a "right" fly or the importance of color overall, this series of flies is based on studies done by him using underwater divers to record the reactions of trout to certain colors and aspects of flies. The Double Wing series was a result of this study in terms of the "ideal" attractor pattern. He recommends certain color combinations for different light situations. Although Brooks, if I remember right, did some underwater observations, as far as I know, LaFontaine was the only person to study, from an underwater prospective and in a systematic manner, the reactions of trout to a number of variables of a fly’s construction. Does any one here fish these patterns? Any comments? Willi

Response:

Question:

I just got home after the clave…Debbie Ursenbach won a knot machine…

<snipped What is a knot machine?  I love gadgets, in fact my kids call me…never mind what they call me… <)))’    <)))’    <)))’    <’(((<    <)))’    <)))’

"Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality."

Response:

Ernie Harrison won a fly box & over 100 flies donated by Bruiser Vern

Hot damn, thank you Bruiser I can’t wait to see them. Vern, a check is in the mail for postage, thanks for your good work. Ernie

Response:

I just got home after the clave…Debbie Ursenbach won a knot machine… <snipped What is a knot machine?  I love gadgets, in fact my kids call me…never mind what they call me…

http://home.earthlink.net/~eharrison241/ — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

Response:

Hot damn, thank you Bruiser I can’t wait to see them. Vern, a check is in the mail for postage, thanks for your good work.

Now, no one said anything about being able to *see* them!  Bruce ties a lot of those nice midge thingies.  Actually when you get that many lined up you begin to see a pinkish hue against the white fly box background Regards, Jeff

Response:

Hey Ernie, i was glad you won my flies, hope you like them. Bring them to the San Juan where you can use them.  I’ll take you fishing and we can tie a few blood knots. I’m serious about the visit ernie, come on down and bring Darin, RW, Warren, Willi, Charlie, Bob, Dan’l, and all the other Roffers with you. I’ll buy the beer and tie the flies.  On second thought, most of you will probably want to tie your own. There’s about 7 fly shops at the San Juan that need a new gadget in their inventory (I’m thinking blood knot machine). One more time, Warren, you ran a great clave.  I came late, found great people to fish with every day, and had the time of my life.  Can’t wait for Western Clave 2001. bruiser  YES I CAN POST!  YEE HA!  THANKS CHARLIE FOR THE COMPUTER HELP! Before you buy.

Response:

I’m serious about the visit ernie, come on down and bring Darin, RW, Warren, Willi, Charlie, Bob, Dan’l, and all the other Roffers with you. I’ll buy the beer  <unimportant stuff snipped

  When and where is all I need to know. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Bruce,    I am certain I will love your flies.  I have never fished the San Juan but if I ever get down that way I will let you know and you can show me the ropes.  I used to wholesale the Blood Knot Machine several years ago to companies like Hook&Hackle, but just sell a few I have left on the Internet for my own entertainment now. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Ernie, Bring them to the San Juan where you can use them.  I’ll take you fishing and we can tie a few blood knots. I’m serious about the visit ernie, come on down and bring Darin, RW, Warren, Willi, Charlie, Bob, Dan’l, and all the other Roffers with you. I’ll buy the beer and tie the flies.  On second thought, most of you will probably want to tie your own. There’s about 7 fly shops at the San Juan that need a new gadget in their inventory (I’m thinking blood knot machine). One more time, Warren, you ran a great clave.  I came late, found great people to fish with every day, and had the time of my life.  Can’t wait for Western Clave 2001. bruiser

Response:

I wanted to get on roff before doing anything else and post the results of the raffle. Bob Skinner won HoldZit Products donated by Pat R. Pat Reichner won a hat, fly box, flies, second fly box, & flies from the fly swap donated by Warren F.

Thanks Vern….I never made it to the clave or the raffle to pick up my prize.   Please send it ASAP.<g Bob, it was nice of you to pass out your HoldZit products to the rest of the clave fishermen/ladies.  I was hoping everyone got a sample. — Sharp Hooks, Pat Holdzit Fishing Products Inc. http://www.holdzit.com Before you buy.

Response:

I just got home after the clave and after fishing Henry’s Fork, Buffalo River, and the Provo.  Why should the fishing end with the clave?  It didn’t for me. I wanted to get on roff before doing anything else and post the results of the raffle.  I should say that I have not read anything on roff and have no idea if anyone else have made another similar post.  More comments are to come after I clean out the car and get settled back into being home again. Mickey Agua won a quilt donated by Debbie U. Vernon Ursenbach won a bamboo fly-rod donated by Steve Z. Dan Finn won a fly rod donated by Mike C. & a rod tube donated by Tom B. Darin Minor won furled leaders donated by Michael E. & a ff book donated by Ken F. Brian D. Nelson won a knot tool & Simms thing donated by Frank C. & a bottle of wine donated by Dan F. Debbie Ursenbach won a knot machine & rod building info donated by Ernie H. Steve Zimmerman won 2 ff books donated by Kiyu Bob Skinner won HoldZit Products donated by Pat R. Michael Erana won a guided float trip for 2 donated by Brian N.  (There are special conditions that apply.) Bruce Hopper aka Bruiser won a fly box & 4 dozen flies donated by William L. Pat Wilson won a fly box, flies, & complete pheasant hide donated by Bob S. Frank Church T-Shirt & Y2K clave photo donated by Wayne H. Tom Brown won a fly box & flies donated by Dale W. Stephen Barnard aka RW won 2 ff books donated by Kelly R. Pat Reichner won a hat, fly box, flies, second fly box, & flies from the fly swap donated by Warren F. Ernie Harrison won a fly box & over 100 flies donated by Bruiser Dave Snedeker won a Cortland Lazerline WF3F donated by Darin M. Kelly Roger won a bunch of show stuff from Las Vegas donated by Vernon U. William Loehman won a 8′ 2wt fly rod donated by Charles W. Dale Wilkionson won a C&R tool & lanyard donated by RW Warren Findley won a fly reel donated by Walt W. Charles Wilson won a Bastard fly rod donated by Mickey A. (George ?) — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Response:

Bruce Hopper aka Bruiser won a fly box & 4 dozen flies donated by William L.

I saw those flies – they appeared to be really well tied. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Question:

Chris,    It is difficult to tail a member of the trout family because their tail is not rigid.  Members of the salmon family are easy to tail. Ernie for all my advice, you should have seen me in practice this morning <G.  had a difficult time tailing a fish and when i finally did, it broke me off right there and shot away.  the way things go sometimes.

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – chris

Response:

Landing steelhead with a double-handed rod has always troubled me. ..

Just break the rod in half – always works for me! RalphH

Response:

I have found that just a plain pair of wool glove allows you to grip the fish’s tail much easier.  Hope this is of help. Kevin

Response:

Chris,    It is difficult to tail a member of the trout family because their tail is not rigid.  Members of the salmon family are easy to tail. Ernie

well, we’ll have to agree to disagree.  i find steelhead much easier to tail than some of the pacific salmon, although they are in the same family as trout and steelhead, maybe you meant the salmo genus. btw, another way to get a handle on the fish is to first grab the leader… yes, sometimes you get cuts on your fingers from doing it.  of course, with all the benfits of a 2-handed rod, landing fish on them without beaching them is one of the drawbacks. chris

Response:

I wouldn’t worry about tailing steelhead I’ve found that they roll on their side and don’t trash. If you back out of the water and lay your rod down and keep tension on the line you can get a hold of the tail and then get your fly out.It’s much easier to release a steelhead than a small trout I haven’t seen anything used to tail a steelhead.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Landing steelhead with a double-handed rod has always troubled me. I have tried to tail them, but my hand is often too small and/or weak to do so. Besides, it seems to take too much time to sufficiently weaken them before trying to tail them. I don’t want to exaust them. So I tend to force the issue as quickly as possible and try to beach them as soon as possible. Most of the time I have been successful in doing so although I have lost a few feisty ones that seemed to hate to touch the beach. I don’t mind losing some; I let all of them go any way afterwards. However, I wonder if beaching them might hurt them. Does anyone have any factual information regarding beaching and health of relatively large fish? Could anyone give me lessons about how to tail them? As much as I love to hook them, I would like to release them safely. Shinji on the Sky well, i don’t think it’s good for a big fish to flop around on rocks and sand, you really want to keep the fish in the water and not have the rocks and sand remove the fish’s slime layer or scales.  i haven’t seen any studies on it, but i believe all info on releasing fish recommends not bringing the fish out of water. what i do is make sure i have some loose line off the reel so that once i tail the fish i can illeviate the line pressure so i don’t break the rod.  i haven’t found that it takes much more time to tire a steelhead out to tail it than to beach it.  if it’s a problem with your hands, i think there are some tailing devices out there… most seem to be fairly long handled, but i’m sure you could cut back the handle.  i know cabelas sells them.  you could also make sure to fish with someone else, who can tail your fish and vice-versa, but that’ll probably decrease fishing days if you must have a partner.  look into some sort of tailing device if you can’t use your hands, because it is better for the fish you plan on releasing. chris

Response:

for all my advice, you should have seen me in practice this morning <G.  had a difficult time tailing a fish and when i finally did, it broke me off right there and shot away.  the way things go sometimes. i agree that it’s not that big of a deal to lose a fish once you’ve touched the leader or made a grab for the tail… but it truly is nice to get ahold of a steelhead every once in awhile just to get a real good look at one and technically land a steelhead <G. chris

Heartily I agree. That’s why I was trying to beach them. I’d like to thank and say good-bye to them in a proper manner. Shinji on the Sky

Response:

______  I always just slip my free under the fish and lift just a little without taking the fish out of the water and I turn it (being on the edge of the river now) into what current there may be.  Usually, I can slip the hook out very easily.  When I want the fish to simply swim off, I lower its weight back off my hand and they will almost surely swim off casually rather then darting off, which confirms the calming affect lifting a fish just a little has on them while still letting them stay in the water. This works especially well when using barbless hooks because they come out much easier without upsetting a fish as will most barbed hooks will.  Barbed hooks go in easy but come out with more difficulty unless you pay attention to the angle of the little slit one should try to back such hooks out.  Barbed hooks are easier to remove with a large pair of forceps.  A secret I use is to use a pair of dikes.  Powerful cutting and pointed pliers that I can snip the hook in half (large hooks with large barbs) just behind the barb if its all the way through.  The barb comes out instantly and the fish is free. Yes, it cost me a fly but when you’ve caught a 12 pound or large Steelhead, the cost of a fly you’ve tied yourself is a small price to pay for such great entertainment.  It always amazes me when watching television fishing shows the great amounts of effort the ‘Pros’ will go to to save a fly at the greater expense and stress and damage to the fish.   Hope these suggestions are somewhat useful gentlemen. Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

Chris,   It is difficult to tail a member of the trout family because their tail is not rigid.  Members of the salmon family are easy to tail.

ARRGH! It’s that Salmonid Taxonomy problem again. Trouts and salmons are all in the family Salmonidae. One of the major genera with in that family is _Salmo_, which includes the Atlantic Salmon and the Brown Trout. Another major family is _Onchorynchus_, which includes the Cutthroat, Rainbow, Golden, Gila, Apache trout and all of the Pacific salmons (pink, king, coho, et cetera). The Lake and Brook Trout are in yet two more genera. (Brookies are technically chars, but I still like them anyway. They’ve got spirit.) At any rate, there is no "trout family" that is distinct from the "salmon family." The criterion that I use is based upon tracing evolutionary relationships. The other criterion may be based upon reproductive migrations or on freshwater vs. saltwater, which leaves us screwed in describing sea-run Cutts or Browns or Steelhead. (Genetically, Steelhead are Rainbows. Bigger and migratory, but rainbows none the less.) Opt out == cop-out. What’s so hard to understand?

Response:

The WDFW gives away a nifty little device at most of the sportsmens shows that is simply a dowel with a plate hook on the end of it. I think they even had directions on how to make them in the regs pamphlet. If you were to make one of these short enough to put in your vest you wouldn’t even have to touch the fish. Simply hook the line with the tool and slide the tool to the fishes mouth. Lift the tool up and the fish unhooks itself. It’s the same principle as the "CatchemRelease" tool you spend $20 on (I have one I use for trout and love it!).  It’s one of the best devices for fishing I have found. It’s simple and better yet it works! Gary

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Landing steelhead with a double-handed rod has always troubled me. I have tried to tail them, but my hand is often too small and/or weak to do so. Besides, it seems to take too much time to sufficiently weaken them before trying to tail them. I don’t want to exaust them. So I tend to force the issue as quickly as possible and try to beach them as soon as possible. Most of the time I have been successful in doing so although I have lost a few feisty ones that seemed to hate to touch the beach. I don’t mind losing some; I let all of them go any way afterwards. However, I wonder if beaching them might hurt them. Does anyone have any factual information regarding beaching and health of relatively large fish? Could anyone give me lessons about how to tail them? As much as I love to hook them, I would like to release them safely. Shinji on the Sky

well, i don’t think it’s good for a big fish to flop around on rocks and sand, you really want to keep the fish in the water and not have the rocks and sand remove the fish’s slime layer or scales.  i haven’t seen any studies on it, but i believe all info on releasing fish recommends not bringing the fish out of water. what i do is make sure i have some loose line off the reel so that once i tail the fish i can illeviate the line pressure so i don’t break the rod.  i haven’t found that it takes much more time to tire a steelhead out to tail it than to beach it.  if it’s a problem with your hands, i think there are some tailing devices out there… most seem to be fairly long handled, but i’m sure you could cut back the handle.  i know cabelas sells them.  you could also make sure to fish with someone else, who can tail your fish and vice-versa, but that’ll probably decrease fishing days if you must have a partner.  look into some sort of tailing device if you can’t use your hands, because it is better for the fish you plan on releasing. chris

Response:

Landing steelhead with a double-handed rod has always troubled me. I have tried to tail them, but my hand is often too small and/or weak to do so. Besides, it seems to take too much time to sufficiently weaken them before trying to tail them. I don’t want to exaust them. So I tend to force the issue as quickly as possible and try to beach them as soon as possible. Most of the time I have been successful in doing so although I have lost a few feisty ones that seemed to hate to touch the beach. I don’t mind losing some; I let all of them go any way afterwards. However, I wonder if beaching them might hurt them. Does anyone have any factual information regarding beaching and health of relatively large fish? Could anyone give me lessons about how to tail them? As much as I love to hook them, I would like to release them safely. Shinji on the Sky

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well, i don’t think it’s good for a big fish to flop around on rocks and sand, you really want to keep the fish in the water and not have the rocks and sand remove the fish’s slime layer or scales.  i haven’t seen any studies on it, but i believe all info on releasing fish recommends not bringing the fish out of water. what i do is make sure i have some loose line off the reel so that once i tail the fish i can illeviate the line pressure so i don’t break the rod.  i haven’t found that it takes much more time to tire a steelhead out to tail it than to beach it.  if it’s a problem with your hands, i think there are some tailing devices out there… most seem to be fairly long handled, but i’m sure you could cut back the handle.  i know cabelas sells them.  you could also make sure to fish with someone else, who can tail your fish and vice-versa, but that’ll probably decrease fishing days if you must have a partner.  look into some sort of tailing device if you can’t use your hands, because it is better for the fish you plan on releasing. chris

Thanks. Reading your posting, I realize what a fool I was. Why do I have to worry about losing fish while trying to tail them? After all, I am tailing them in order to release them! Shinji on the Sky

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well, i don’t think it’s good for a big fish to flop around on rocks and sand, you really want to keep the fish in the water and not have the rocks and sand remove the fish’s slime layer or scales.  i haven’t seen any studies on it, but i believe all info on releasing fish recommends not bringing the fish out of water. what i do is make sure i have some loose line off the reel so that once i tail the fish i can illeviate the line pressure so i don’t break the rod.  i haven’t found that it takes much more time to tire a steelhead out to tail it than to beach it.  if it’s a problem with your hands, i think there are some tailing devices out there… most seem to be fairly long handled, but i’m sure you could cut back the handle.  i know cabelas sells them.  you could also make sure to fish with someone else, who can tail your fish and vice-versa, but that’ll probably decrease fishing days if you must have a partner.  look into some sort of tailing device if you can’t use your hands, because it is better for the fish you plan on releasing. chris Thanks. Reading your posting, I realize what a fool I was. Why do I have to worry about losing fish while trying to tail them? After all, I am tailing them in order to release them! Shinji on the Sky

for all my advice, you should have seen me in practice this morning <G.  had a difficult time tailing a fish and when i finally did, it broke me off right there and shot away.  the way things go sometimes. i agree that it’s not that big of a deal to lose a fish once you’ve touched the leader or made a grab for the tail… but it truly is nice to get ahold of a steelhead every once in awhile just to get a real good look at one and technically land a steelhead <G. chris

Response:

Question:

called the House Rockers.  I remember  I had an LP…33rpm…whatever… issued by Alligator Records.  I think I bought it in the late seventies when I was in college in Minneapolis.  The cover shot was of Hound Dog playing…was it a Fender Stratocaster?… along with his porkpie hat in a studio sitting next to small amp.  Yes…he had other stuff on besides his hat.  The print job on the album cover was a nice rich duotone photo in brown-sepia. Link to the album…you have a good memory. I believe he also played an old Rickenbacker. http://cdu2.cduniverse.com/asp/albuminfo.asp?LC=1455+4701&cart=850147… Here’s a link of a short bio: http://mathrisc1.lunet.edu/blues/Hound_Dog_Taylor.html and here’s a link of the early Alligator/Hound Dog history….. http://www.allmusic.com/cg/x.dll?p=amg&sql=B543 I tried to download a mp3 of his from the LYCOs mp3 site…but the links appear to be dead.      -Wow…Hound Dog Taylor… excellent      guitarist.   Up there with Stevie Ray and Buddy      Guy…

agreed….especially after he indulged      - Congatulate Matt for me.  What store?

I believe he mentioned an Orvis store in Scranton….but I’m not sure.      - When you get a chance please tell him to bring      some of "Wayno’s Finger-Lickin’ Bar-B-Que Hot      Sauce" along with "Wayno’s Ol’ Time Porch      Sittin’ Lemonade" with him.   A lot of wagers      came in after the World Series and now us yanks      are in cotton.

terrible series. –Walt — Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

Response:

HR Blaine: <<I believe I have that on 33, but where I come from, we call it jazz.  <g   *Exactly*.  That was my point, HR.  I have managed to duplicate my entire jazz collection (vinyl 33s) with CDs.  Manne, with Previn and Leroy Vinnegar on bass, was one of the first albums I started with in 55/56.   Dave L.

Response:

  Walt Winter, man of letters and spirits, gives me the last word on Hound Dog Taylor:   Link to the album…you have a good memory. I believe he also played an old Rickenbacker. http://cdu2.cduniverse.com/asp/albuminfo.asp?LC=1455+4701&cart=850147…   Here’s a link of a short bio:   http://mathrisc1.lunet.edu/blues/Hound_Dog_Taylor.html   and here’s a link of the early Alligator/Hound Dog history…..   http://www.allmusic.com/cg/x.dll?p=amg&sql=B543   I tried to download a mp3 of his from the LYCOs mp3 site…but the links appear to be dead.   – Incredible Walt!  Absolutely incredible!  I still can’t get over the whole connectivity thing.  Just great…something like this simply didn’t exist a few years ago.  The ‘net…what power!  And, let’s hope, it stays available to all for a long time…   – By the way, do mean to tell me that for some blues artists, or for any performing artists for that matter,  you can get a sound clip as well.  Let me know when you get a chance.     Kindest regards,   Tony Ritter

Response:

Manne, with Previn and Leroy Vinnegar

on bass, was one of the first albums I started with in 55/56.< Hmmm.  My first was Miles Davis, Round Midnight.  I was in college, mid-50s, had  to "save up" a couple of bucks to buy it.  

Response:

HR Blaine: <<I believe I have that on 33, but where I come from, we call it jazz.  <g   *Exactly*.  That was my point, HR.  I have managed to duplicate my entire jazz collection (vinyl 33s) with CDs

    i just wish i could duplicate your luck, louie my boy. wayno

Response:

Wayno: <<<<I believe I have that on 33, but where I come from, we call it jazz.  <g   *Exactly*.  That was my point, HR.  I have managed to duplicate my entire jazz collection (vinyl 33s) with CDs

    i just wish i could duplicate your luck, louie my boy. It ain’t luck, counselor.  Told ya that long ago.  <g I *may* be in Durham on the 10th.  How far is that from your digs?  Dinner?  We have a school in Wilmington on the 10th, and *maybe* one in the Durham area on the 11th. Dave

Response:

How about Robert Johnson, considered by many to be the most influencial blues musician of all time. The Blues and the food are the only two things I miss since moving from Chicago. Willi

Response:

Walt: thanks for the links. Big Dale

Response:

blues comment is about enough to make me jump! Too name of a few of the greatest are as follows all though some may be considered R & B… John Lee Hooker, Jimi Hendrix (yes, his blues cd is exceptional)

When I start driving in the morning on a trip of any length I prefer to start driving a couple of hours before dawn with The Jimi Hendrix Concerts and then follow it with my favorite flyfishing electric blues guy Eric Clapton’s album From The Cradle…the first cut Blues Before Sunrise will get you going. He also does a great cut of Hoochie Man on this album. I love the blues, but if I am driving from Dallas to Nashville and forget to set the cruise control when listening to some of the old acoustic stuff like Hank Williams’ Low Down Blues pretty soon I will be only driving about 35 mph and it will take forever to get there. I have to follow the blues with some punk rock like The Clash or The SezxPistols. Since I still like rockabilly another way to get going in the fast lane again particularly in East Arkansas or WesternTtenn. I put in Archive byThe Stray Cats…20 great cuts.. you gotta love those Fishnet Stockings and the song Gene and Eddie..I do agree that Hendrix’s blues cd is excellent, but then a lot of hard rockers and country artists have some great blues…check out Willie Nelson’s Milk Cow Blues sometime this is a great song. Blues are where you find them. I always found it kind of odd that a lot of American rockers learned the blues after a lot of the English rockers introduced the blues to them. Big Dale

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  …Howlin Wolf…. now thars a name you don’t see mentioned to often.   Way back in the early 70’s, I was associated with an all-white blues band that went by the name of Cadillac Jake. Anyway, we had a gig to open for the Wolf at a big ‘ole church (yeah, I know, but this is southside Chicago) and afterwords we all piled in a couple of vans and headed up to Florence’s to catch Hound Dog. I’ll never forget the electricity that was generated by that man (between gulps of Ole Grand Dad whisky, generously proffered by yours trully) and the way that he could swing from house-rockin’ blues to old southern blues. Amazing stuff.   – I believe Hound Dog Taylor’s band was called the House Rockers.  I remember  I had an LP…33rpm…whatever… issued by Alligator Records.  I think I bought it in the late seventies when I was in college in Minneapolis.  The cover shot was of Hound Dog playing…was it a Fender Stratocaster?… along with his porkpie hat in a studio sitting next to small amp.  Yes…he had other stuff on besides his hat.  The print job on the album cover was a nice rich duotone photo in brown-sepia.   -Wow…Hound Dog Taylor… excellent guitarist.   Up there with Stevie Ray and Buddy Guy…   As far as music at a site…..it can be annoying to some people. The other day on the way back from fishin’ with Matt, he had this tape that had a Louie Armstrong and Bing Crosby ditty called "Gone Fishin’" playing. I’ve been hummin it ever since and it would be kinda cool to have that playing in the background. Most web-designers discourage music though….takes up to much valuable load time.   Speakin’ of Matt…he just got a job at some flyshop up in PA. He’s real excited about it (probably cuz’ us mountain hoosiers won’t be outfishin’ him nomore) and he’s even more excited about being able to fish the Delaware, Salmon, etc….   – Congatulate Matt for me.  What store?   – When you get a chance please tell him to bring some of "Wayno’s Finger-Lickin’ Bar-B-Que Hot Sauce" along with "Wayno’s Ol’ Time Porch Sittin’ Lemonade" with him.   A lot of wagers came in after the World Series and now us yanks are in cotton.   If you can’t beat ‘em…   Regards,   Tony Ritter in NY

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Louie, who is sticking with Brubeck, MJQ, Peterson, Mulligan, et al. Dave L. I guess you never know, I had you figured for show tunes<g.

Now *that’s* funny!

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"My Fair Lady" with Shelly Mann and

Andre Previn sounds good.< I believe I have that on 33, but where I come from, we call it jazz.  <g

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"electric gitars do not belong on a blues record" ,they came in with post war urban groups that tried to drown the joint with volume. Sorry I can’t comment since I wasn’t there, but I believe the electric blues comment is about enough to make me jump! Too name of a few of the greatest are as follows all though some may be considered R & B… John Lee Hooker, Jimi Hendrix (yes, his blues cd is exceptional), Buddy Guy, BB King, Albert King, Albert Collins, Son House, Elmore James, Johnny Guitar Watson, Otis Rush and the list has just begun. Sorry to be abrupt and to the point but I feel your point on electric blues is a bit skewed. Tony Norton

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Charlie Choc: <<I guess you never know, I had you figured for show tunes<g. "My Fair Lady" with Shelly Mann and Andre Previn sounds good. D Dave L.

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Louie, who is sticking with Brubeck, MJQ, Peterson, Mulligan, et al. Dave L.

I guess you never know, I had you figured for show tunes<g. — Charlie…

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– Charlie…Wayno…y’all kin john in hear?

"any fish bite if you got good bait"<g — Charlie…

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– Hi Walt,- Indeed I did.  And also The ‘Fess…Sippie Wallace…Howlin’ Wolf…Luther Vandross… – Luther Vandross? – Only kidding…by the way Walt it’s been about a year since we met in cyberspace and I value your opinion when it comes to the aesthetics of the web.   Would it be too tacky to add a sound clip of let’s say Taj Mahal playing "The Fishing Song" to my site… you know…"ah’m I goin’ fishn’ you ah goin’ fishin’ and mah bebbe’s goin’ fishin’ too". – Charlie…Wayno…y’all kin john in hear? Waitin’ fo dee fyah…Tony Ritterin Noo Yawk

Howlin Wolf…. now thars a name you don’t see mentioned to often. Way back in the early 70’s, I was associated with an all-white blues band that went by the name of Cadillac Jake. Anyway, we had a gig to open for the Wolf at a big ‘ole church (yeah, I know, but this is southside Chicago) and afterwords we all piled in a couple of vans and headed up to Florence’s to catch Hound Dog. I’ll never forget the electricity that was generated by that man (between gulps of Ole Grand Dad whisky, generously proffered by yours trully) and the way that he could swing from house-rockin’ blues to old southern blues. Amazing stuff. As far as music at a site…..it can be annoying to some people. The other day on the way back from fishin’ with Matt, he had this tape that had a Louie Armstrong and Bing Crosby ditty called "Gone Fishin’" playing. I’ve been hummin it ever since and it would be kinda cool to have that playing in the background. Most web-designers discourage music though….takes up to much valuable load time. Speakin’ of Matt…he just got a job at some flyshop up in PA. He’s real excited about it (probably cuz’ us mountain hoosiers won’t be outfishin’ him nomore) and he’s even more excited about being able to fish the Delaware, Salmon, etc…. Gone Fishin’….. Walt — Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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Walt Winter wrote Tony… You forgot Hound Dog Taylor. Waldo

- Hi Walt, – Indeed I did.  And also The ‘Fess…Sippie Wallace…Howlin’ Wolf…Luther Vandross… – Luther Vandross? – Only kidding…by the way Walt it’s been about a year since we met in cyberspace and I value your opinion when it comes to the aesthetics of the web.   Would it be too tacky to add a sound clip of let’s say Taj Mahal playing "The Fishing Song" to my site… you know…"ah’m I goin’ fishn’ you ah goin’ fishin’ and mah bebbe’s goin’ fishin’ too". – Charlie…Wayno…y’all kin john in hear? Waitin’ fo dee fyah… Tony Ritter in Noo Yawk

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Tony… you forgot Hound Dog Taylor. Waldo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry to say I did get a few recommendations on…(the blues) – Then try: In no order of preference: Albert King Stevie Ray Vaughn Bonnie Raitt John Mayall The Yardbirds (with Clapton) Johnny Lang Buddy Guy Robert Johnson Freddie King oh… and  *early* Ry Cooder – especially "Paradise and Lunch" Kindest regards, Tony Ritter Narrowsburg, New York

– Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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wayno, the musically deprived: <<hot damn!  my retirement dream come true!  i’m buyin a new set of black diamonds for the ol d-28 this very afternoon!         #you take sally, i’ll take sue…# What a horrible vision — you singing while dressed in sequins! Hell, take your pick; either would be horrible, but together the thought is not only horrible, but obscene.  If you did that, *everyone* would be…….changed. Louie, who is sticking with Brubeck, MJQ, Peterson, Mulligan, et al. Dave L.

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Sorry to say I did get a few recommendations on…(the blues)

- Then try: In no order of preference: Albert King Stevie Ray Vaughn Bonnie Raitt John Mayall The Yardbirds (with Clapton) Johnny Lang Buddy Guy Robert Johnson Freddie King oh… and  *early* Ry Cooder – especially "Paradise and Lunch" Kindest regards, Tony Ritter Narrowsburg, New York

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w  the foundation gives grants to blues artists…but only those older than 55 and with incomes below $18k per year.  I think his label is called MusicMakers, or something like that.  The N&O did a story on him about 4 months ago.  Sounds like that might be what you are searching for.

        hot damn!  my retirement dream come true!  i’m buyin a new set of black diamonds for the ol d-28 this very afternoon!         #you take sally, i’ll take sue…# wayno

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Indian Joe, One of the best records I ever owned was a collection of LPs called the Blues Box, which I purchased in the mid-1960s. Man, talk about authentic blues! Sonny Terry, original Leadbelly, etc. Wish I had those records now. Bob Elliott, Rochester – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did not get to enjoy much music at recent Fall Ball as you could not hear over loud mouth drunks and the CD player would only work if one person stood beside with his hand on top . Sorry to say I did get a few recommendations on blues.  Sorry to say I purchased three of them and guess  I will wrap them up for future clave raffles. You guys are confused about blues, or maybe just grew up to late to understand that blues  are s  a song of troubles, deep down hurting troubles, not just some bunch of guy playing and electric gitar with a bunch of be bops howling in the background. The Blind Pig 20th Anniversary Collecting  is so badly recorded that you cannot understand the vocals over the electric gitars.. electric gitars do not belong on a blues record,they came in with  post war urban  groups that tried to drown the joint with volume. .The Alligator Records  20th Anniversary Collection  has the same problems, seems to me these recording companies with ther rehash of misfits are just trying to rip you off, as there is no way locally to hear the cd before purchase.   Then Charlie recommended  Ry Cooder  Buena Vista Social Club.D don’t know what you learned in music appreciation class in Georgia, but I now own a cd with a bunch of guys singing in some foreign language, I thought California had passed a law against all tha foreign lingo being used in our country. Perhaps I can sell it to some of the Latino working around the golf course.    dIf you guys want to hear some blues try  Leadbelly Alabame Bound  RCA or Best fo the Blues #3 McA.  It hurts but goes down good with manhattans. At next clave someone is really going to wonder who to blame when Indian Joe wins a box of beautiful flies and he receives a small round disk someone purported to be the blues. I      Indian Joe   Wilmington N.C

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…since you seem to be fond of direct talk IJ, let me suggest yer full of shit if you think alligator records CDs aint the blues. however, each to his own.  Perhaps you should take a journey on the internet and check out the names of the folks who have been selected for the blues hall of fame…many of them are on the alligator record label.  Also, i’ll be glad to take the blind pig and buena vista club cds off yer hands…let’s see, used cds in trade go for about 2 dollars… btw, there is a fella and his wife in pilot mountain, north carolina who started a foundation for the preservation of the "old-timey" blues music.  the foundation gives grants to blues artists…but only those older than 55 and with incomes below $18k per year.  I think his label is called MusicMakers, or something like that.  The N&O did a story on him about 4 months ago.  Sounds like that might be what you are searching for…i used to have his web site, but it’s changed and i don’t know if he’s relocated.  charlie choc might have it…   also, check out www.thebluehighway.com (that’s a web site IJ <G). you surely aren’t claiming that true blues musicians don’t/won’t/can’t play the electric guitar?  or are you? sorry you didn’t care for the alligator records collection CD…but then, what was that gawdawful cd you made me play…and those movies you made me watch???   jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did not get to enjoy much music at recent Fall Ball as you could not hear over loud mouth drunks and the CD player would only work if one person stood beside with his hand on top . Sorry to say I did get a few recommendations on blues.  Sorry to say I purchased three of them and guess  I will wrap them up for future clave raffles. You guys are confused about blues, or maybe just grew up to late to understand that blues  are s  a song of troubles, deep down hurting troubles, not just some bunch of guy playing and electric gitar with a bunch of be bops howling in the background.  The Blind Pig 20th Anniversary Collecting  is so badly recorded that you cannot understand the vocals over the electric gitars.. electric gitars do not belong on a blues record,they came in with  post war urban  groups that tried to drown the joint with volume. .The Alligator Records  20th Anniversary Collection  has the same problems, seems to me these recording companies with ther rehash of misfits are just trying to rip you off, as there is no way locally to hear the cd before purchase.    Then Charlie recommended  Ry Cooder  Buena Vista Social Club.D don’t know what you learned in music appreciation class in Georgia, but I now own a cd with a bunch of guys singing in some foreign language, I thought California had passed a law against all tha foreign lingo being used in our country. Perhaps I can sell it to some of the Latino working around the golf course.     dIf you guys want to hear some blues try  Leadbelly Alabame Bound  RCA or Best fo the Blues #3 McA.  It hurts but goes down good with manhattans.  At next clave someone is really going to wonder who to blame when Indian Joe wins a box of beautiful flies and he receives a small round disk someone purported to be the blues. I       Indian Joe   Wilmington N.C

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Did not get to enjoy much music at recent Fall Ball as you could not hear over loud mouth drunks and the CD player would only work if one person stood beside with his hand on top . Sorry to say I did get a few recommendations on blues.  Sorry to say I purchased three of them and guess  I will wrap them up for future clave raffles. You guys are confused about blues, or maybe just grew up to late to understand that blues  are s  a song of troubles, deep down hurting troubles, not just some bunch of guy playing and electric gitar with a bunch of be bops howling in the background.  The Blind Pig 20th Anniversary Collecting  is so badly recorded that you cannot understand the vocals over the electric gitars.. electric gitars do not belong on a blues record,they came in with  post war urban  groups that tried to drown the joint with volume. .The Alligator Records  20th Anniversary Collection  has the same problems, seems to me these recording companies with ther rehash of misfits are just trying to rip you off, as there is no way locally to hear the cd before purchase.    Then Charlie recommended  Ry Cooder  Buena Vista Social Club.D don’t know what you learned in music appreciation class in Georgia, but I now own a cd with a bunch of guys singing in some foreign language, I thought California had passed a law against all tha foreign lingo being used in our country. Perhaps I can sell it to some of the Latino working around the golf course.       dIf you guys want to hear some blues try  Leadbelly Alabame Bound  RCA or Best fo the Blues #3 McA.  It hurts but goes down good with manhattans.  At next clave someone is really going to wonder who to blame when Indian Joe wins a box of beautiful flies and he receives a small round disk someone purported to be the blues. I       Indian Joe   Wilmington N.C

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello All,     I must first say that have been reading ROFF rather religiously the past couple weeks and have found it to be extremely beneficial to my fly fishing. Many of my own queries have been addressed here.  Thank you.     Anyway, now to my question.  I have been fishing a particular stream with nice smallmouth in it for years now.  I have exclusively used ultra-light takle for this stream and have been extremely successful.  Now that I am more into flyfishing, I now want move on and try out some flys on this stream, but being as I have mainly flyfished for the rainbows of East Tennessee, I am somewhat at a loss for what types of flys to use.     I was wondering if anyone would have some suggestions for what are some good, general, "ol’ trusty" flys for catching smallmouth out of streams? Any bit of information will be greatly appreciated!                                                                 Thanks *BOB*

Hi Bob, I prefer to take them on top if I can. I would try something about one inch long like a hopper or dry muddler.  A friend that was working back East for a few years found out they liked the steelhead dry fly called the ‘Bomber’. It is spun and clipped grey deer hair body with a grizzly palmered hackle in about a size #6 or 8. I also used a light colored medium sized hard bodied popper on the lower umpqua River in Oregon. Early morning and late evening is best on top. Under water I would try a Whitlock Near-nuff Crayfish, weighted brown Wolly Bugger, Clouser Minnow or Big brown Rubberleg Nymph. Something weighted that is big, buggy and black or brown? I have also heard that they can be caught on most trout patterns at times.

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   I must first say that have been reading ROFF rather religiously the past couple weeks and have found it to be extremely beneficial to my fly fishing.

LOL! We must be slipping! [snipped]    I was wondering if anyone would have some suggestions for what are some good, general, "ol’ trusty" flys for catching smallmouth out of streams? Any bit of information will be greatly appreciated!

My experience with stream smallies (eg: Housatonic, Contoocook) has been that whatever I’m using for trout will generally work with the small mouths (in fact when I’m aiming for the trout the smallies seem to get to my fly first). If I’m aiming to hook up with small mouths, big flies (especially soggy ones) seem to work best. Woolly Buggers/Bombers, Deceivers, Matukas, Muddlers (my favorite), Wool-head Sculpins, etc. For dry flies, terrestrials (hoppers, beetles, flying ants, etc) have worked for me, along with the more "trouty" patterns. hth! /daytripper

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    Anyway, now to my question.  I have been fishing a particular stream with nice smallmouth in it for years now.  I have exclusively used ultra-light takle for this stream and have been extremely successful.

What did you use that was so sucessful?  Try imitating it.  Crayfish? Try a crayfish pattern (complicated to tie) or just a weighted woolybugger fished slowly in  crayfish colors.  Appropriately colored (weighted if necessary) wooly buggers can also imitate hellgramites or leeches. Floating Rapalas? A streamer in the colors of your most sucessful plugs might do the trick- a generic baitfish imitation will have a light underside and dark back, maybe some flashabou or a tinsel wrapped hooked or mylar body.  I find that smallmouths will eagerly strike dries and nymphs if drifting nearby, but are more likely to chase larger flies over some distance.  A floating muddler minnow, slightly waking the surface at the end of the downstream swing sometimes works really well.  In general I’ve had the best experiences with down-n-across presentations.  Since you have been an ultralight fisherman, you should be familiar with a "color" available in soft plastics called "pumpkinseed".  Some folks really like chartreuse but I typically stick to earth tones.  Was that too vague?  My best wooly bugger this year: #8 2x streamer hook.  Light olive, medium sized chenille body.  Very light olive (almost appears yellow in the water) marabou tail with (soft) red palmered hackle. Mu Young Lee             Ann Arbor, MI   USA

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Try size 8-4 clousers in brown orange and Chartreuse and white. Also, Woolly Buggers in brown, black, and olive in sizes 10-6 are good. And you can’t go wrong with deer hair bugs DAYGLOW York Team DBE

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Hello All,     I must first say that have been reading ROFF rather religiously the past couple weeks and have found it to be extremely beneficial to my fly fishing. Many of my own queries have been addressed here.  Thank you.     Anyway, now to my question.  I have been fishing a particular stream with nice smallmouth in it for years now.  I have exclusively used ultra-light takle for this stream and have been extremely successful.  Now that I am more into flyfishing, I now want move on and try out some flys on this stream, but being as I have mainly flyfished for the rainbows of East Tennessee, I am somewhat at a loss for what types of flys to use.     I was wondering if anyone would have some suggestions for what are some good, general, "ol’ trusty" flys for catching smallmouth out of streams? Any bit of information will be greatly appreciated!                                                                 Thanks *BOB*

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I’ve had luck with such flies as Bitch Creek, Wooly Buggers, and streamers. I kinda concoct my own fly that is basically a bunch of dubbing wrapped aound the shank of the hook with a maribou tail, usually in black, size 4-6. You can weight them for deeper waters if needed. Minnow patterns usually work good, I’ll make that same fly and add some flashabou to it as an attractor. Hope that helps. Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello All,     I must first say that have been reading ROFF rather religiously the past couple weeks and have found it to be extremely beneficial to my fly fishing. Many of my own queries have been addressed here.  Thank you.     Anyway, now to my question.  I have been fishing a particular stream with nice smallmouth in it for years now.  I have exclusively used ultra-light takle for this stream and have been extremely successful.  Now that I am more into flyfishing, I now want move on and try out some flys on this stream, but being as I have mainly flyfished for the rainbows of East Tennessee, I am somewhat at a loss for what types of flys to use.     I was wondering if anyone would have some suggestions for what are some good, general, "ol’ trusty" flys for catching smallmouth out of streams? Any bit of information will be greatly appreciated!                                                                 Thanks *BOB*

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download headers until you get to the thread posted by Todd Arnold on July 15….folks responded pretty goo to that one and it contains a variety of tips… and then look for a book titled, "Smallmouth strategies for the

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Question:

I am looking for a literary agent to represent a book that I am writing for publication.  Any suggestions?  Thanks a bunch.  I never forget those who help me. — Flyfish NC                                                   Gordon Churchill                                        http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/3853                                                                     Dragon’s Hope Publishing Heidi Dragon Churchill                                               Business cards, ad design, forms and all manner of desktop publishing.      

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I have not failed  I am a writter of peotry.  Need publishcation

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have not failed I have not failedDragon’s Hope Publishing I have not failedHeidi Dragon Churchill                                               I have not failedBusiness cards, ad design, forms and all manner of desktop publishing.       I have not failed                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

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[snip] : I guess they figure the writing chores should be left lot the giants of : the industry, like Howard Stern and Rush Limbaugh.  <sigh I feel for ya.  But writers like Stern aren’t the really sad cases.  You may not like him, but he has talent.  You try talking off the top of your head every day and maintaining the attention of a million listeners.  I have a hard time some days with 200 in a classroom, and they pay to be there.  Stern can tell a story. The real sad ones are the cases like this woman bomber pilot recently resigned from the Air Force.  She disobeys a direct order from her superior and gets a large advance to write a book about it.  Shameless. The author, the publisher and the editor. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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I am looking for a literary agent to represent a book that I am writing for publication.  Any suggestions?  Thanks a bunch.  I never forget those who help me. — Flyfish NC Gordon Churchill                                        http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/3853

Gordon, I’ve been trying to get an agent to read my novel "Blue Ice" for over a year.  I’ve got 75 rejections, and only a handful (5) even accepted the first 25 manuscript pages.  I have no idea how many of those actually even read the first page. I guess they figure the writing chores should be left lot the giants of the industry, like Howard Stern and Rush Limbaugh.  <sigh As a musician friend frequently reminds me that all I need to do is get up in that bell tower with my deer rifle, and I’ll have a book deal within 48 hours.   Yes, I’m cynical.  I’m probably also paranoid.  But then, just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean they aren’t all out to get you. — Mark Cahill For E-mail remove the _Remove_This from the reply to address. http://www.geocities.com/Baja/3297/fishing.htm Mark Cahill’s Fishing New England – Daily Fishing News http://www.reel-time.com/ The Internet Journal of Saltwater Fly Fishing – Metropolitan Boston Regional Editor

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Question:

                                                                    The thing that got me was that i read Lyman Hugh’s response, when he stated that he was always disappointed to see them on the end of the line.  My question is, if the fish fight well (which they really do), and if they aren’t too ugly (which, in my book, they’re not), then why the disappointmentR?

A)…..white fish can’t jump! B)…..they fight hard for few moments, and then poop out, perhaps        because their mouths are so small, so they run out of oxygen        faster. C)…..they’re good smoked, a delicacy, in fact. Because of their        oily flesh, they take the smoke better. (But they’re hard to        keep lit). —

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I’m pretty sure you are now talking about 2 different species of fish. The whitefish in Montana looks a lot like a grayling/sucker, relatively long and thin.  The Great Lakes whitefish, a delicacy, is a chunky, somewhat oily fish that is a high-priced restaurant meal, commercially netted.  I have caught them in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area, rising at dusk to the white may flies that come in August.  They are usually broiled with paprika, andthe fillets are delicious. Whitefish are sought after up here in Ontario. You guys don’t know what

you’re missing. They fillet great and are also stuffed/baked. They must be good ifthey are sold commeircially here but I get mine thru the ice on Simcoe andwould rank them behind crappie and walleye in terms of tastiness They – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -will also hit minnows and jigs. — Richard Park    

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Well, I ditched work for the afternoon yesterday and ventured out upon the local waters and managed to catch my first brown trout (2 of ‘em, actually — I’m a novice ffisherman).  I also caught a mountain whitefish.  I’ve caught a couple of whitefish now.  The fishing proclamation calls them gamefish here in Utah, but to my knowledge, most fishermen treat them as trash fish.

Jay, I’ve caught mountain whitefish and a couple of species of lake w’fish. They taste just fine. Despite the scales, they’re salmonids (as are grayling). The mountain species lives in substantially the same waters as trout, eats almost the same stuff, and fights quite respectably. Unfortunately, there is a perception on some waters that fish fall into one of two categories (trout & trash). Sad — 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

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inhis posting on whitefish, Jay stated The fishing proclamation calls them gamefish here in Utah, but to my knowledge, most fishermen treat them as trash fish. Does anyone know if whitefish are edible?  (Well, of *course* they’re edible, but does anybody purposely fish for them and take them home for supper?)

     Whitefish are excellent eating, and they are truly wonderful smoked, which is easy to do. There is a good article and recipe in the latest issue of Big Sky Journal. Whitefish are best eaten when caught in the colder weather months, i.e. November through April.       In addition, whitefish provide some pretty good sport to any Ffisher with an open mind. They take dry flies, love nymphs, and fight respectably. They are NOT a trash fish. The term Trash Fish usually conjures up images of fish species that take over sections of river that become either too warm or too polluted to sustain hte more desireable game fish.  Also, trash fish are often accused, either rightly or wrongly,  of having a negative impact on trout or other gamefish populations, which is certainly not the case with Whitefish.      Whitefish, require the same pristine river conditions that trout do. Chances are that a river that can no longer sustain breeding trout populations can’t sustain whitefish either. They too are an indicator species for water quality. Finally they are a member of the overall family of which trout are also members, like second or third cousins, so they cant be all bad!  I wish trout fishermen who catch them would stop throwing them on the banks to die needlessly, and either return them to the rivers or take them home and make use out of them Dale Owens

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Well, Me and my girlfriend caught a couple on accident while fishing for crappie.  We took it home, and filleted them.  We froze them and then took them out of the freezer to thaw.  The thawed for a while (we went somewhere that weekend), and when we came back, they were ruined.  They filleted real nicely and had a lot of boneless meat to them, so They would not be a problem to try them and see if they are any good.  I hear they are good smoked.  We hear about them all the time in our hunting and fishing news, they are active about the same time the other fishes are spawning (they eat eggs).  People catch them on whitefish flies (what are whitefish flies), and also with a maggot on the fly.  This did not answer the question, but had to say my piece.

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Whitefish are sought after up here in Ontario. You guys don’t know what you’re missing. They fillet great and are also stuffed/baked. They must be good if they are sold commeircially here but I get mine thru the ice on Simcoe and would rank them behind crappie and walleye in terms of tastiness They will also hit minnows and jigs. — Richard Park    

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.. would not be a problem to try them and see if they are any good.  I hear they are good smoked. …

I really like them smoked (although a lot of bones, but I don’t mind) … Peter

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Jay  Clibern writes:

"The fishing proclamation calls them gamefish here in Utah, but to my knowledge, most fishermen treat them as trash fish. Does anyone know if whitefish are edible?  (Well, of *course* they’re edible, but does anybody purposely fish for them and take them home for supper?)" Jay – As ugly as they are, they are edible – smoked is the only way that I know of.  I can’t say I am a big fan, but lots of folks like them.  If you fish around Ennis, MT on the Madison, you can take 4 or 5 (or fewer) whitefish into the Resvedts Meat market, give them a fish and a dollar for each fish, and they will give you an already smoked whitefish. A big surprise to me is the fact that the whitefish is part of the trout family.  Hard to believe.  I don’t like whitefish (could you tell?), and to me nothing is as frustration as thinking you ahve a big trout on the line only to see that slimey rubber lipped head appear.  But that’s ony one man’s opinion. Lyman Hughes Ennis, MT Dallas, TX                                               Dallas, TX                                               Ennis, MT

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The round whitefish is another Great Lakes species. Locally they are called "Menominee." I catch them off Michigan piers in October to freeze up. In 1994 I fished as late as after Christmas. They bite on a single poached salmon egg on the bottom. They are timid biters and the real trick is to know when they are after the bait. My family considers them delicious. Incidently, nobody fishes for them on the Wisconsin side of the lake. Wisconsin comercial fishermen net them but I’ve never seen anyone fishing for them in the Michigan manner.

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you are correct about the Lake witefishes.  But the mountain whitefish of the Rockies and the Truckee drainage in California/Nevada ( The answer to a trivia question about distribution of Western Salomids before coming of the european )  are a completely different case then the  whitefish of the Great Lakes.        The Mountain Whitefish, otherwise Known as Salmo ( as they are a salmonid )  Carpi, have been extending their range.  It seams that with all the "progress"  and the wonderful benefit that strip mining brings to the landscape and the stream.  That the Mountain Whitefish is able to withstand the rapid changes in its environment, better then the trout.

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I think that all the answers to the original note follow pretty much what I have read and heard about Whitefish.  I have just one other thought.  I am a catch-and-releaser, mainly because I really don’t like trout that much.  But that’s another story.  I have caught a zillion whitefish in Montana and Wyoming and I can truly say that in most cases I didn’t know they were whitefish until I got them up close in the stream.  That says that they gave me the fight I was looking for and if you don’t keep the fish, what difference does it make if it isn’t a trout but gives you pleasure in catching it?  I’ll have to admit I’m always a little disappointed when I see it’s not a trout since I came to catch trout.  But – accept the fun of the catch and the fight and enjoy the experience. John B. in Mpls..

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Re: white fish-Not to rehash other wf remarks, but … they do fight well and taste great! Have caught them in Madison fried them for breakfast and grilled them. Meat is white and chunky. I caught 16 last year on dry files in about 30 minutes. Way to tell if guy down stream has a wf, the rod tip will jiggle up and down and trout have more steady bend. I got ‘em, turned away from crowd to release them, still in water and everyone thought I was catching trout!!! Was fun.

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Question:

I am in need of some fly-fishing spots.  I live in the Chicago area . . .

I, too, live near Chicago and have been looking for places to go that are nearby.  So far as I can tell, there’s not one bloody trout stream anywhere in the state.  The good news is that just a short hop away, in SW Wisconsin (I’m told) there are some fairly decent trout streams, some of which are designated no-kill streams.  I’ve also heard of various streams in Michigan that might be decent, but don’t know any specifics. I got this information from the Trout & Grouse store, which is located in Northfield (right off the Edens expressway).  I took a fly-fishing course there just recently (I’m just beginning), and they apparently have guides that know these WI and MI streams really well.  Sorry, I don’t have their phone or address handy, though I’m sure they’re in the directory if you want to give them a call. Hope this helps.  Keith — Keith Ludwig, Odesta Systems Corporation,

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Being a displaced Coloradoan here in the land of Lincoln, I am in need of some fly-fishing spots.  I live in the Chicago area . . . does anyone have any suggestions or secret spots they might care to divulge.  I will throw a fly at anything but catfish or carp Thanks, Kevin

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