Question:

I was probably coming into the conversation late – what’s new?! I usually use a duncan loop to tie tippet to fly. I usually start with a fairly loose knot in the hope that the fly will move in a more natural manner (and that that will make a difference), but it usually tightens up after a few casts. If I can ever get to the point that I can tell that my choice of fly-to-tippet connection makes a difference I’ll stop being a banker and become a guide. Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – bob, i think they’re talking about a loop, instead of clinch, uni, or other knot, connection of tippet to fly.  anyway, on that assumption, several experienced and knowledgeable folks in the nc mountains suggest the loop allows wets, nymphs, and streamers to move about in the water better and allow more realistic presentation.  i use the surgeon’s loop at times.  i haven’t been able to tell if there’s much difference in the fish’s appreciation of my effort though… jeff //snip// Bill, do you have any sense of whether a loop makes a difference ?  I’ve gone back and forth with loop vs non-loop connections to clousers (read: am I too tired/ cold/etc to bother) and haven’t noticed a difference. I’m going through the same debate. Nail knots are a pain in the ass to tie. I’ve been upset enough with loop connectors (they get jammed in the guides) that I swear never to use them again, but then when it’s cold and I want to get a new leader on quickly I capitulate. Have never tried leader links, but Wolfgang was using one on our Hazel trip and it seemed to be a good compact connection. — http://rwpatton.home.netcom.com/

Response:

 Try the "non-slip loop", which is the Rapala loop without the final  step.  Both are supposed to be stronger than the Duncan.

Thanks. The main need I have for strength is for pulling flies out of brush. Bob Wondering if it’s better to break the line at the tippet-to-fly connection or at the tippet-to-leader . . .

Response:

I use a no-slip loop knot whenever I want a loop in tippet. It’s easy to tie and very strong.

Like Bill says below I’ve used it as a loop knot on a fly works great and very strong. Good idea to use as a tippet connector I’ll have to try.

Response:

I’ll stop being a banker and become a guide. Bob

    liar, liar, pants on fire.  we all know you’re an accountant! yfitons wayno

Response:

Wayne Knight suggested that Leader Loops are for those people who’s fingers are too arthritic or disabled to tie a knot, otherwise one should use a damn bloodknot for a leader connection. I have been having problems tying small flies on to tippet (especially dry flies), so I now pre-snell/tie them, at my tying table with plenty of light and magnification, to about 16" – 18" of tippet and store them in a thing called a "Pip’s Box" made by Mack’s Lure of Leavenworth, Washington State US (You can hold better than a dozen flies or so with this thing without tangling the tippet, and it comes in colors with a see thru lid.  I organize my flies by the color of the box.)  My eyesight, especially at twilight or later, is not so good even with a flashlight.  I just can’t seem to get the tippet thru then I have a hell of a time tying the knot IF I get it threaded.  I am using Fluorocarbon tippet, these days, and I feel that a blood knot is not adequate for this material.  I then use a Tie-Fast Knot Tying tippet to the leader with their double splicing knot or double nail knot as some have described it, which I believe is considerably stronger than the blood knot, or at least my blood knots anyway…be curious to see if anyone else has the same experience. Just my two cents worth, anyway Padishar Creel

Response:

  we all know you’re an accountant! Always prospecting for business, huh? Bob

Response:

I think I will, Wayne. I made a leader, per Lefty Kreh’s directions, for casting big bugs. However, I used uni to uni knots. I think I will make another one with blood knots and attach it. I mastered nail knots a long time ago. Now, I am trying to expand my knot repertoire. I still maintain that the perfection loop is a myth… Bug, et al. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – cut the fly line, tie the nail and then tie the blood knot, you’ll feel much better

Response:

Hi All, Connecting the smaller tippet material to the leader we sometimes use a surgeons loop because it is stronger than a perfection loop.

it is but not by much.(perhaps 3 to 5%). Perfections should give a strength of 90 to 95% of the line vs 95% plus for a surgeon. The surgeons is a bit easier to tie though. An attribute of the perfection is that it is perfectly straight while a surgeon loop may put a bit of an angle in the line. The strongest loop you can tie is the bimini or some of the variants of this loop. It’s complicated and not usually used for a tippet loop in most applications

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, Connecting the smaller tippet material to the leader we sometimes use a surgeons loop because it is stronger than a perfection loop. it is but not by much.(perhaps 3 to 5%). Perfections should give a strength of 90 to 95% of the line vs 95% plus for a surgeon. The surgeons is a bit easier to tie though. An attribute of the perfection is that it is perfectly straight while a surgeon loop may put a bit of an angle in the line.

I use a no-slip loop knot whenever I want a loop in tippet. It’s easy to tie and very strong.

Response:

Ralph, — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, Connecting the smaller tippet material to the leader we sometimes use a surgeons loop because it is stronger than a perfection loop. it is but not by much.(perhaps 3 to 5%). Perfections should give a strength of 90 to 95% of the line vs 95% plus for a surgeon. The surgeons is a bit easier to tie though. An attribute of the perfection is that it is perfectly straight while a surgeon loop may put a bit of an angle in the line. The strongest loop you can tie is the bimini or some of the variants of this loop. It’s complicated and not usually used for a tippet loop in most applications

Response:

Steve, Lefty really promoted the non-slip loop knot and now I see most of all using it with flies we want to move freely like a Clouser minnow. Thanks. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, Connecting the smaller tippet material to the leader we sometimes use a surgeons loop because it is stronger than a perfection loop. it is but not by much.(perhaps 3 to 5%). Perfections should give a strength of 90 to 95% of the line vs 95% plus for a surgeon. The surgeons is a bit easier to tie though. An attribute of the perfection is that it is perfectly straight while a surgeon loop may put a bit of an angle in the line. I use a no-slip loop knot whenever I want a loop in tippet. It’s easy to tie and very strong.

Response:

Nice contribution. Very helpful. I hope you continue to foster goodwill in this group and for the sport of fly fishing. Bugged – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – cut the fly line, tie the nail and then tie the blood knot, you’ll feel much better Better strength-test it on your dick first, Collier.

Response:

//snip//  Bill, do you have any sense of whether a loop makes a  difference ?  I’ve gone back and forth with loop vs  non-loop connections to clousers (read: am I too tired/  cold/etc to bother) and haven’t noticed a difference.

I’m going through the same debate. Nail knots are a pain in the ass to tie. I’ve been upset enough with loop connectors (they get jammed in the guides) that I swear never to use them again, but then when it’s cold and I want to get a new leader on quickly I capitulate. Have never tried leader links, but Wolfgang was using one on our Hazel trip and it seemed to be a good compact connection. — http://rwpatton.home.netcom.com/

Response:

bob, i think they’re talking about a loop, instead of clinch, uni, or other knot, connection of tippet to fly.  anyway, on that assumption, several experienced and knowledgeable folks in the nc mountains suggest the loop allows wets, nymphs, and streamers to move about in the water better and allow more realistic presentation.  i use the surgeon’s loop at times.  i haven’t been able to tell if there’s much difference in the fish’s appreciation of my effort though… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – //snip// Bill, do you have any sense of whether a loop makes a difference ?  I’ve gone back and forth with loop vs non-loop connections to clousers (read: am I too tired/ cold/etc to bother) and haven’t noticed a difference. I’m going through the same debate. Nail knots are a pain in the ass to tie. I’ve been upset enough with loop connectors (they get jammed in the guides) that I swear never to use them again, but then when it’s cold and I want to get a new leader on quickly I capitulate. Have never tried leader links, but Wolfgang was using one on our Hazel trip and it seemed to be a good compact connection. — http://rwpatton.home.netcom.com/

Response:

cut the fly line, tie the nail and then tie the blood knot, you’ll feel much better

Better strength-test it on your dick first, Collier.

Response:

I’ve found its hard to beat a perfection loop for most leader connections. The perfection (if tied properly) stands straight out from the standing line with no offset, and the knot strength is near 100%. I use it on all leader butts (with a whipped loop on the fly line), & on all tippet connections down to 4x.  5x & smaller I use a doubled surgeons knot.  I think its easier to tie than a surgeons loop, and, well….. it looks cool! B.J.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I personally think the perfection loop is something of a myth or some type of black magic. For leader loops, is it any better than a surgeon’s loop? Bug

Response:

Hi All, In larger diameter mono like attaching leader to a butt section we use perfection loops because they are a smaller, cleaner knot and strength is not an issue. Connecting the smaller tippet material to the leader we sometimes use a surgeons loop because it is stronger than a perfection loop. In larger diameter mono like attaching a leader to a butt section we also use a blood knot because it is a smaller, cleaner knot. Connecting the smaller tippet material to the leader we also use a triple surgeons knot because it is stronger. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I personally think the perfection loop is something of a myth or some type of black magic. For leader loops, is it any better than a surgeon’s loop? Bug

Response:

Can someone direct me to a site that will show how to tie the perfection loop and the surgeon’s loop?? Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I personally think the perfection loop is something of a myth or some type of black magic. For leader loops, is it any better than a surgeon’s loop? Bug

Response:

Can someone direct me to a site that will show how to tie the perfection loop and the surgeon’s loop?? Tony

Hi Tony, Go here for any knot you’re apt to use: http://www.flyanglersonline.com/begin/knots/ Frank Sr.

Response:

I personally think the perfection loop is something of a myth or some type of black magic. For leader loops, is it any better than a surgeon’s loop? Bug

Response:

I personally think the perfection loop is something of a myth or some type of black magic. For leader loops, is it any better than a surgeon’s loop?

Leader Loops are for those people who’s fingers are too arthritic or disabled to tie a knot, otherwise one should use a damn bloodknot for a leader connection.

Response:

Leader Loops are for those people who’s fingers are too arthritic or disabled to tie a knot, otherwise one should use a damn bloodknot for a leader connection.

Actually, leader loops are used between the flyline and the butt section, where you aren’t likely to tie a blood knot. You could use a nail knot, a "nailless" nail knot, a needle knot, or a Zap-a-Gap connection, but not a blood knot, unless you’re either crazy or desperate or stupid. I’ve even heard of one person using two clinch knots, incredibly enough, but I don’t recommend it. I’d rather use a blood knot. I usually tie a new leader onto the butt section (attached to the flyline with a leader link) with a blood knot. After quite a few leader changes I eventually need a new leader link and butt section, but that takes quite awhile — maybe once a year on my workhorse rig.

Response:

I speaking only from the leader end, agree blood knot to attach a butt section to a leader.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Leader Loops are for those people who’s fingers are too arthritic or disabled to tie a knot, otherwise one should use a damn bloodknot for a leader connection. Actually, leader loops are used between the flyline and the butt section, where you aren’t likely to tie a blood knot. You could use a nail knot, a "nailless" nail knot, a needle knot, or a Zap-a-Gap connection, but not a blood knot, unless you’re either crazy or desperate or stupid. I’ve even heard of one person using two clinch knots, incredibly enough, but I don’t recommend it. I’d rather use a blood knot. I usually tie a new leader onto the butt section (attached to the flyline with a leader link) with a blood knot. After quite a few leader changes I eventually need a new leader link and butt section, but that takes quite awhile — maybe once a year on my workhorse rig.

Response:

You’re talking about a blood knot to connect the leader to the fly line?? I wanted to use a nail knot to connect the leader, but the line came with a loop, and I justed couldn’t get myself to cut the flyline. Anyway, I’m not arthritic or disabled, but I am confused and thick-headed. Are you saying a loop to loop leader to flyline is bad? Sorry. Sometimes I am profoundly obtuse Bug, et al. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I personally think the perfection loop is something of a myth or some type of black magic. For leader loops, is it any better than a surgeon’s loop? Leader Loops are for those people who’s fingers are too arthritic or disabled to tie a knot, otherwise one should use a damn bloodknot for a leader connection.

Response:

cut the fly line, tie the nail and then tie the blood knot, you’ll feel much better

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re talking about a blood knot to connect the leader to the fly line?? I wanted to use a nail knot to connect the leader, but the line came with a loop, and I justed couldn’t get myself to cut the flyline. Anyway, I’m not arthritic or disabled, but I am confused and thick-headed. Are you saying a loop to loop leader to flyline is bad? Sorry. Sometimes I am profoundly obtuse Bug, et al. I personally think the perfection loop is something of a myth or some type of black magic. For leader loops, is it any better than a surgeon’s loop? Leader Loops are for those people who’s fingers are too arthritic or disabled to tie a knot, otherwise one should use a damn bloodknot for a leader connection.

Response:

Question:

Sounds like you finally made enough to bribe the Sheriff. Unka Bob

I’ll tell you one thing Unka.  I’d kill to fly that damn RV-3 of yours.  I have the "Hold Not Responsible/Release of Liability" document signed and notarized in my grubby little paw right now. Grandpa says it’s good (you know, Boom Boom’s dad…my main lawyer). Vito Lanuti (Boom Boom’s brother…my second in command lawyer) liked it too.  Didn’t change one word.  It says if I wreck it, my estate is to pay you your purchase price for it (plus your expenses for travel to pick it up and your time) and take possession of the wreckage.  So, you get paid off in cash if I crash it. I intended to go to Arlington and will be very unhappy on Friday that I’m not there….BUT, I’m going fishing in Utah on Friday , so I will have some fun. BWB

Response:

The intrepid members of the Noon Patrol arrived at Arlington at 11:00 AM on Wednesday and by Noon had set up the Nieuport 11 fuselage with VW engine for display.  (Note to DS:  We used losts of Dcut tape).  We put a brief summary of our project and a couple dozen 8×10 photos on a bulletin board.  Then we sat in the shade under our official Noon Patrol awning and had cold drinks while we watched the crowd. By 5:00 PM today we had had several hundred visitors with comments and questions.  The comments ranged from "I wish I lived in Independence, OR" to "You guys are nuts."  The questions were usually "Do you guys know that lunatic that writes about the Dawn Patrol in Kitplanes?"  We always answered that "Dick Starks is to blame for everything."   – John Ousterhout, Mike Pongracz, Ernie Moreno, Dave Ruddiman, and Clay Kesterson –   – The Noon Patrol, EAA Chapter 292, Independence, OR   – http://www.teleport.com/~medlock/ Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

The Noon Patrol display at Arlington was a great success. Interest was very high as thousands — even a few of the rah ilk — took a close look at our fuselage and engine.  It should be very exciting next year when we fly 14 Nieuports to Arlington.   http://www.teleport.com/~medlock/noon_patrol/jul_00/before.jpg   http://www.teleport.com/~medlock/noon_patrol/jul_00/after.jpg http://www.teleport.com/~medlock/noon_patrol/jul_00/mike_and_john jpg We believe that we qualified for the dead grass award. We met a few other Niuport builders too.  Everyone wanted to know if Dick Starks is really as crazy as he seems in Kitplanes.  We told them that he’s far crazier than that.  After all, Dick’s our inspiration.  - John Ousterhout –   The Noon Patrol – 14 Nieuport 11’s under construction   EAA Chapter 292, Indepencence, OR   http://www.teleport.com/~medlock/ Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

The Noon Patrol will have a Nieuport 11 fuselage with VW engine on display at the EAA Arlington, WA Fly-In on the 6th, 7th and 8th. The Noon Patrol are 13 EAA Chapter 292 members who are building 14 Nieuport 11 replicas in the Independence Airplane Factory – formerly the EAA Chapter 292 hangar.  These are the 7/8 scale planes designed by Graham Lee and made famous by the antics reported in Kitplanes Magazine by Dick Starks and the Kansas City Dawn Patrol. At present the group owns all the airplanes.  When ready for paint, members will draw lots for the aircraft.  One plane will be sold at auction to raise money for EAA Chapter 292. Come by and take a look at our work so far and meet some of the maniacs who are building 14 Niuuports 11’s.  Feel free to insult us.  We know we’re crazy, but this is so much fun that we’re not sure that it’s legal. Not a week goes by that my Spousal Unit doesn’t say "Damn that Dick Starks!"   – John Ousterhout –   EAA Chapter 292   Independence, OR   http://www.teleport.com/~medlock/ Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Oyterhouse.  Don’t get too comfy thinking about that bed upstairs at Ant Eater’s.  I may decide to fly the RV up there on Thursday just to screw with you all.  I had some good luck this week and made a dollar three forty…so I can afford to come.  It’s now a matter of the time. BWb

Response:

John H Ousterhout announced: The Noon Patrol will have a Nieuport 11 fuselage with VW engine on display at the EAA Arlington, WA Fly-In on the 6th, 7th and 8th.

Wish I could get there. However, at the moment I’m even more interested in the Independence Flyer.  As of a week or so ago, it had been nearly six months since the project report on the Web site had been updated.  Any idea what’s been going on with it? Oh, and what are they going to do with the Gypsy?  There was some talk about selling it off.  (Not that it will do me any good way out here in New Hampshire.) Many thanks. Owen Davies

Response:

The chapter 292 Webmaster is a lazy toad.  Someone needs to kick his ass and get him to update the web page section about the Independence Flyer. The Independence Flyer project was badly hurt when several members defected to the Nieuport 11 project.  However the Ultralight project contines, although at a slower pace. Our half-VW engine is running well on a stand.  The fuselage is complete and on the gear.  Tail feathers are complete as well. Wing construction is to start soon. Many of us do not want to sell the Gypsy,  We may hang it from the ceiling of our chapter hangar as a static display.  Others believe that it should be flying and are willing to sell it to a good home.  It is awfully cute.   – John Ousterhout –   EAA Chapter 292 Webmaster – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John H Ousterhout announced: The Noon Patrol will have a Nieuport 11 fuselage with VW engine on display at the EAA Arlington, WA Fly-In on the 6th, 7th and 8th. Wish I could get there. However, at the moment I’m even more interested in the Independence Flyer.  As of a week or so ago, it had been nearly six months since the project report on the Web site had been updated.  Any idea what’s been going on with it? Oh, and what are they going to do with the Gypsy?  There was some talk about selling it off.  (Not that it will do me any good way out here in New Hampshire.) Many thanks. Owen Davies

Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

I’m going to be there first to claim the bed.  You can sleep on the floor in the garage. If you do show up do you think anyone will give you a ride from Arlington to Ampmeters house? I’m sure your good buddy Zoom will be thrilled if you show up. He may be the only one that is. – John Ousterhout – P.S.  It was you my wife mentioned by name when she brought home the case of Arrogant Bastard Ale! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oyterhouse.  Don’t get too comfy thinking about that bed upstairs at Ant Eater’s.  I may decide to fly the RV up there on Thursday just to screw with you all.  I had some good luck this week and made a dollar three forty…so I can afford to come.  It’s now a matter of the time. BWb

Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Oyterhouse.  Don’t get too comfy thinking about that bed upstairs at Ant Eater’s.  I may decide to fly the RV up there on Thursday just to screw with you all.  I had some good luck this week and made a dollar three forty…so I can afford to come.  It’s now a matter of the time. BWb

Sounds like you finally made enough to bribe the Sheriff. Unka Bob

Response:

Sounds like you finally made enough to bribe the Sheriff. Unka Bob

It’s not bribery, it’s soft money political campaign contributions. Tom " election year" Cooper

Response:

Among other interesting comments, John H Ousterhout noted: Many of us do not want to sell the Gypsy,  We may hang it from the ceiling of our chapter hangar as a static display.  Others believe that it should be flying and are willing to sell it to a good home.  It is awfully cute.

I’d be sorely tempted to buy it (at a good enough price, of course) if it didn’t mean crossing the country at something slower than the average wind velocity.  It is awfully cute.  Those comments about what a nice flyer it is piqued my curiosity, too. Thanks for the info. Owen Davies

Response:

    hehehe,,,,,,                                     Scrappman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t think there’s any room left in the tub: http://www.cyberis.net/~jouster/gallery/hi_bill.jpg – J.O.- P.S. Have you learned to fly straight yet?    What about the hot tub party on Sat. night? Keeping that one to your self, John?                                        Scrappman Arlington Washington — The Northwest EAA Fly-In and Airshow – Wed. July 11 through Sun. July 15. The Noon Patrol will exhibit a Nieuport 11 aircraft that is almost complete — at the "90% complete and 90% remaining" stage. Members of the Noon Patrol will speak about the team process of building aircraft in the Main forum tent at Noon on Saturday. Stop by our exhibit and say hi.  I hope to see you all at the rah barbecue on Friday.   John Ousterhout   The Noon Patrol – 14 Nieuport 11 replicas under construction   EAA Chapter 292, Independence, OR   http://www.fly.to/eaa292

Response:

Arlington Washington — The Northwest EAA Fly-In and Airshow – Wed. July 11 through Sun. July 15. The Noon Patrol will exhibit a Nieuport 11 aircraft that is almost complete — at the "90% complete and 90% remaining" stage. Members of the Noon Patrol will speak about the team process of building aircraft in the Main forum tent at Noon on Saturday. Stop by our exhibit and say hi.  I hope to see you all at the rah barbecue on Friday.   John Ousterhout   The Noon Patrol – 14 Nieuport 11 replicas under construction   EAA Chapter 292, Independence, OR   http://www.fly.to/eaa292

Response:

    What about the hot tub party on Sat. night? Keeping that one to your self, John?                                         Scrappman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Arlington Washington — The Northwest EAA Fly-In and Airshow – Wed. July 11 through Sun. July 15. The Noon Patrol will exhibit a Nieuport 11 aircraft that is almost complete — at the "90% complete and 90% remaining" stage. Members of the Noon Patrol will speak about the team process of building aircraft in the Main forum tent at Noon on Saturday. Stop by our exhibit and say hi.  I hope to see you all at the rah barbecue on Friday.   John Ousterhout   The Noon Patrol – 14 Nieuport 11 replicas under construction   EAA Chapter 292, Independence, OR   http://www.fly.to/eaa292

Response:

I don’t think there’s any room left in the tub: http://www.cyberis.net/~jouster/gallery/hi_bill.jpg – J.O.- P.S. Have you learned to fly straight yet? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    What about the hot tub party on Sat. night? Keeping that one to your self, John?                                        Scrappman Arlington Washington — The Northwest EAA Fly-In and Airshow – Wed. July 11 through Sun. July 15. The Noon Patrol will exhibit a Nieuport 11 aircraft that is almost complete — at the "90% complete and 90% remaining" stage. Members of the Noon Patrol will speak about the team process of building aircraft in the Main forum tent at Noon on Saturday. Stop by our exhibit and say hi.  I hope to see you all at the rah barbecue on Friday.   John Ousterhout   The Noon Patrol – 14 Nieuport 11 replicas under construction   EAA Chapter 292, Independence, OR   http://www.fly.to/eaa292

Response:

Question:

I don’t think that the water temps you stated will support brook or brown trout, so you may not have a lot of options, but rainbows may not stick around for you to catch them. I was under the impression that brown trout tcan olerate higher water temperatures than can rainbows. Isn’t that so? I’ve read that browns can survive if the water temperature does not consistently exceed 70 degrees F.

You are correct, I was wrong about the browns.  Brown trout are the most tolerant of higher water temps by about 1 degree and can tolerate short-term peaks in temperature much better than other types of trout (such as after a warm summer downpour).  I talked to my grandfather about this post last night–he’s been a private hatchery owner since the late 1940s–and he brought up the pH level of the water.  I think he said that rainbows are more tolerant of acidic water than other species. Tom Before you buy.

Response:

I don’t think that the water temps you stated will support brook or brown trout, so you may not have a lot of options, but rainbows may not stick around for you to catch them.  

I was under the impression that brown trout tcan olerate higher water temperatures than can rainbows. Isn’t that so? I’ve read that browns can survive if the water temperature does not consistently exceed 70 degrees F. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I don’t think that the water temps you stated will support brook or brown trout, so you may not have a lot of options, but rainbows may not stick around for you to catch them. I was under the impression that brown trout tcan olerate higher water temperatures than can rainbows. Isn’t that so? I’ve read that browns can survive if the water temperature does not consistently exceed 70 degrees F.

I fish an area of my local river that I call transition water. Over about a five mile stretch, the river changes dramatically. At the uppermost part of this stretch, rainbows and browns are about equal in number and there are no warm water fishes. Further downstream, there are more browns than rainbows and there are a few carp as well as some warm water minnows. Toward the end of the transition area, there are lots of carp and warm water minnows plus a few VERY large browns. Finally, there are no trout left. Willi

Response:

I am fortunate enough to own a decent stretch of a water (med.size creek) in SW Va. It has good numbers of smallmouth,red-eyes,pike,and many blue gill. In the deepest hole, it’s about 10-11 feet deep.I have measured the temp in July at the bottom. It was around 65 degrees. It keeps a pretty good flow. I put rainbows in a couple of years ago, back in my worm dunking days, and caught some trout this past spring so some must be holding over.My questions: I want to put some trout in this fall/winter…what is to be considered? How many? what type, (all I have been able to locate so far are rainbow and brookies), size? Will my neighbors be eating good, come the first good rain? Am I wasting money??? Other considerations from you folk would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Tim Long

Tim, My Uncle owns a private hatchery here in central PA.  One thing that you may not have considered is the tendency for rainbows to point their nose toward the sea and swim.  One tagged rainbow released into a trout stream here in PA was caught in the Susquehanna river in Maryland!  Not all rainbows will head immediately for the ocean, but you cannot really count on them to stay in the stretch of water you put them in, either. Rainbows swimming for the ocean are akin to throwing your money into the creek and watching it drift away. I don’t think that the water temps you stated will support brook or brown trout, so you may not have a lot of options, but rainbows may not stick around for you to catch them.  Some private hatcheries raise ‘tiger trout’–a sterile cross between a brook and a brown trout (kind of like a mule, I guess)–that doesn’t head downstream like a bullet and fights like the devil.  These ‘tiger trout’ may be able to tolerate the water temps you’ve got, and since you aren’t interested in reproduction they may be just the thing.  Obviously, the purists in the world would look down their noses at this suggestion but it is a possibility. Just trying to be helpful, Tom Before you buy.

Response:

Any time you want to come down your more than welcome…there are two real nice special reg areas within 20 miles of my land…I’m still confused by all the Waynes in the group, do you hail from Fredicksburg? Tim,wondering if theres a Carl’s to go, Long

Hey Tim!  I’m the REAL Wayne.  YES!! We have a Carl’s Ice Cream shop. It’s just closing down for the winter now but, rest assured, it will rise, like the proverbal phoenix, in the spring.  When the MWC coeds grace the warming rocks of the Rappahannock and the shad grace the planks of hickory, Carl’s ice cream shall flow again. — Wayne…now, where did you say those fish are? To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

because i am younger and better looking. wayno

Have you EVER known a lawyer to bend the truth! — Wayne (who is sometimes mistaken for Wayno’s son by comely youg things in public) To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

      well, you know how ol waldo will see double from time to time… I’d heard that<g. I may wander over his way next week if I get tired of looking for ol’ Eric up on Snowbird and Santeetlah… — Charlie…

jeez, guess i need to start worry’n ’bout these "senior moments"…. dang, he was so young. i’d still like to see the brothers wayne in the cottonwood brewery though <g waldo — Walter G. Winter Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://users.boone.net/wgw/brbg.html

Response:

   well, you know how ol waldo will see double from time to time…

I’d heard that<g. I may wander over his way next week if I get tired of looking for ol’ Eric up on Snowbird and Santeetlah… — Charlie…

Response:

remember that ‘ole bob newhart tv show that had the thre brothers, darrell, darell, & darrell? I though only two were named Darrell? (The other was Larry?) — Charlie…

        well, you know how ol waldo will see double from time to time… wayno

Response:

remember that ‘ole bob newhart tv show that had the thre brothers, darrell, darell, & darrell?

I though only two were named Darrell? (The other was Larry?) — Charlie…

Response:

Any time you want to come down your more than welcome…there are two real nice special reg areas within 20 miles of my land…I’m still confused by all the Waynes in the group, do you hail from Fredicksburg? Tim,wondering if theres a Carl’s to go, Long

        no, i am the north carolina wayne; "wayno", to be precise. you can tell me apart from the virginia "wayne" (hart) and the temporarily kansas "wayne" (knight) because i am younger and better looking. wayno

Response:

        no, i am the north carolina wayne; "wayno", to be precise. you can tell me apart from the virginia "wayne" (hart) and the temporarily kansas "wayne" (knight) because i am younger and better looking. wayno

wayno, remember that ‘ole bob newhart tv show that had the thre brothers, darrell, darell, & darrell? i swear ta gawd ya’ll are close enough in looks and stature that…. hart, knight, and you could walk into any dang bar, hell anywhere, and introduce yerselves as the brothers wayne, wayne, and wayno. lmao just thinkin’ bout it…. waldo

Response:

Umm…  do not know if your stream conditions support it, but eggs from suitable stock placed in hatch boxes or specially constructed spawning beds may produce more resilient stock than commercial hatchery produced specimens. For example stock taken directly from your stream could be reared in a small controlled hatchery such as those maintained under permit at local universities.  Eggs taken from your brood stock placed in hatch boxes or spawning beds in your stream could imprint the fish and restore quantities up to the level at which your stream’s habitat will support. This approach may qualify you for a TU "Bring Back The Natives" grant to cover part of your costs. Just a suggestion, you may contact the fisheries department of local universities, and fisheries biologists listed in your yellow pages for ideas or help and your local or national Trout Unlimited organizations for support.  By allowing your stream to be used to advance the science of fisheries, it would be appreciated by everyone involved; faculty, students, volunteers, biologists, neighbors and others. If you chose to do something like this, I would sincerely thank you, and the fish will too! John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are natives in the head waters of this stream, there is quite a few miles and some small private dams in between me and the little native jewels. I saved an article from a 1991 issue of trout titled "Saved By The Barriers" about the encroachment of rainbows on the brookies of the Great Smoky Mountains National Park that you may find of interest. I think the successful barrier height to keep out rainbows was 6 ft. or so. If you send me your address I’ll send the article on to you. owned ponds. IF there is a chance, specified by the VDGIF, that any stocked fish (rainbows) have the opportunity to take over native waters then the permit is not issued and they strongly urge you not to mess with mother nature. My question is, what if I could find brookies to stock, would these same rules apply. VDGIF may be able to give you some insight as to whether the upper section has ever been stocked. If not and there was any chance of your stocked fish getting upstream then you might reconsider brookies. There probably are stocks of brook trout in Va. that escaped the fish bucket dumping craze and it would be a shame to intoduce outside stock to them. During Hoover’s day they even brought in New Hampshire brookies to stock the Rapidan with so I would suspect many other Virginia streams have a wide genetic mix of brookies as well.<G Before flyfishing, we (myself and some family) would buy 25-30 fish at a nearby pond, throw them in the "swimmin’ hole", bait up the kids poles and have a fish fry at the end of a long weekend. Now, I want to do it right, figure out numbers, size, the kind of things that are being discussed in this thread that would give them the best chance to live for as long as possible. As mentioned in my previous post, there are hold overs that I would think have lasted If the upper reaches of your stream are in any of the parks or federal land then I would suggest getting in touch with some of the local TU people to find out who the govt. fisheries biologist is for your area. From my experience with them years ago they are generally hard working, caring folks who really enjoy what they do (despite lousy pay) and would probably be willing to answer your questions and steer you in the right direction. close to two and a half years. (rainbows) NOTHING would make me happier than to be able to go to my own land, and trout fish, however if I thought I would screw up the native population I will never put another fish in. You are to be envied for both your stream and your prudent approach to the problem. Tim, not looking for reproduction,just a good time, Up until the last few years I thought that WAS a good time. Long Kiyu

Response:

I am fortunate enough to own a decent stretch of a water (med.size creek) in SW Va. It has good numbers of smallmouth,red-eyes,pike,and many blue gill. In the deepest hole, it’s about 10-11 feet deep.I have measured the temp in July at the bottom. It was around 65 degrees. It keeps a pretty good flow. I put rainbows in a couple of years ago, back in my worm dunking days, and caught some trout this past spring so some must be holding over.My questions: I want to put some trout in this fall/winter…what is to be considered? How many? what type, (all I have been able to locate so far are rainbow and brookies), size? Will my neighbors be eating good, come the first good rain? Am I wasting money??? Other considerations from you folk would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Tim Long Before you buy.

Response:

The first consideration is that the stocking of exotic species in a free flowing stream is probably illegal, if not it should be. Check with your state’s fish and game agency. Keith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am fortunate enough to own a decent stretch of a water (med.size creek) in SW Va. It has good numbers of smallmouth,red-eyes,pike,and many blue gill. In the deepest hole, it’s about 10-11 feet deep.I have measured the temp in July at the bottom. It was around 65 degrees. It keeps a pretty good flow. I put rainbows in a couple of years ago, back in my worm dunking days, and caught some trout this past spring so some must be holding over.My questions: I want to put some trout in this fall/winter…what is to be considered? How many? what type, (all I have been able to locate so far are rainbow and brookies), size? Will my neighbors be eating good, come the first good rain? Am I wasting money??? Other considerations from you folk would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Tim Long Before you buy.

Response:

 I want to put some trout in this fall/winter…what is to be considered? How many? what type, (all I have been able to locate so far are rainbow and brookies), size?

        well, tim, you just let ol wayno help you with this troublesome dilemma…here’s the deal:  you put as many rainbows in that water as you can afford, from 10 to 18 inches.  brookies, i am advised, would not be happy for long with water over 65 degrees. then, you have me up for a long weekend once a month from now until the little devils are appropriately…identified.         wayno, always willing to help those in need

Response:

There are natives in the head waters of this stream, there is quite a few miles and some small private dams in between me and the little native jewels.

If you live in Virginia there aren’t any native rainbows in your stream. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I didn’t mean rainbows,,,native around here automatically means brookies. Tim There are natives in the head waters of this stream, there is quite a few miles and some small private dams in between me and the little native jewels. If you live in Virginia there aren’t any native rainbows in your stream. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Before you buy.

Response:

Any time you want to come down your more than welcome…there are two real nice special reg areas within 20 miles of my land…I’m still confused by all the Waynes in the group, do you hail from Fredicksburg? Tim,wondering if theres a Carl’s to go, Long – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I want to put some trout in this fall/winter…what is to be considered? How many? what type, (all I have been able to locate so far are rainbow and brookies), size?    well, tim, you just let ol wayno help you with this troublesome dilemma…here’s the deal:  you put as many rainbows in that water as you can afford, from 10 to 18 inches.  brookies, i am advised, would not be happy for long with water over 65 degrees. then, you have me up for a long weekend once a month from now until the little devils are appropriately…identified.    wayno, always willing to help those in need

Before you buy.

Response:

There are natives in the head waters of this stream, there is quite a few miles and some small private dams in between me and the little native jewels.

I saved an article from a 1991 issue of trout titled "Saved By The Barriers" about the encroachment of rainbows on the brookies of the Great Smoky Mountains National Park that you may find of interest. I think the successful barrier height to keep out rainbows was 6 ft. or so. If you send me your address I’ll send the article on to you. owned ponds. IF there is a chance, specified by the VDGIF, that any stocked fish (rainbows) have the opportunity to take over native waters then the permit is not issued and they strongly urge you not to mess with mother nature. My question is, what if I could find brookies to stock, would these same rules apply.

VDGIF may be able to give you some insight as to whether the upper section has ever been stocked. If not and there was any chance of your stocked fish getting upstream then you might reconsider brookies. There probably are stocks of brook trout in Va. that escaped the fish bucket dumping craze and it would be a shame to intoduce outside stock to them. During Hoover’s day they even brought in New Hampshire brookies to stock the Rapidan with so I would suspect many other Virginia streams have a wide genetic mix of brookies as well.<G Before flyfishing, we (myself and some family) would buy 25-30 fish at a nearby pond, throw them in the "swimmin’ hole", bait up the kids poles and have a fish fry at the end of a long weekend. Now, I want to do it right, figure out numbers, size, the kind of things that are being discussed in this thread that would give them the best chance to live for as long as possible. As mentioned in my previous post, there are hold overs that I would think have lasted

If the upper reaches of your stream are in any of the parks or federal land then I would suggest getting in touch with some of the local TU people to find out who the govt. fisheries biologist is for your area. From my experience with them years ago they are generally hard working, caring folks who really enjoy what they do (despite lousy pay) and would probably be willing to answer your questions and steer you in the right direction. close to two and a half years. (rainbows) NOTHING would make me happier than to be able to go to my own land, and trout fish, however if I thought I would screw up the native population I will never put another fish in.

You are to be envied for both your stream and your prudent approach to the problem. Tim, not looking for reproduction,just a good time,

Up until the last few years I thought that WAS a good time. Long

Kiyu

Response:

There are natives in the head waters of this stream, there is quite a few miles and some small private dams in between me and the little native jewels. I have sent an email to the VDGIF and have yet to get a response from them. What I have gathered so far is, the VDGIF wants to sell private stockers a permit to stock, the state will not sell private owners fish from state run hatcheries, you must find them at private owned ponds. IF there is a chance, specified by the VDGIF, that any stocked fish (rainbows) have the opportunity to take over native waters then the permit is not issued and they strongly urge you not to mess with mother nature.My question is, what if I could find brookies to stock, would these same rules apply. Before flyfishing, we (myself and some family) would buy 25-30 fish at a nearby pond, throw them in the "swimmin’ hole", bait up the kids poles and have a fish fry at the end of a long weekend. Now, I want to do it right, figure out numbers, size, the kind of things that are being discussed in this thread that would give them the best chance to live for as long as possible. As mentioned in my previous post, there are hold overs that I would think have lasted close to two and a half years. (rainbows) NOTHING would make me happier than to be able to go to my own land, and trout fish, however if I thought I would screw up the native population I will never put another fish in. Tim,not looking for reproduction,just a good time, Long – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Considering the expense and effort being exerted out here in the west (and its just getting started) to restore our native trout, specifically cutthroat, a little consideration before carrying our five gallon buckets of rainbows and brookies to our favorite trout stream would have been appropriate I think. Keith I think the cat’s out of the bag in this case, Keith. Also, it seems that native brook trout wouldn’t be able to survive the temperatures in this stream. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Before you buy.

Response:

Considering the expense and effort being exerted out here in the west (and its just getting started) to restore our native trout, specifically cutthroat, a little consideration before carrying our five gallon buckets of rainbows and brookies to our favorite trout stream would have been appropriate I think. Keith

I think the cat’s out of the bag in this case, Keith. Also, it seems that native brook trout wouldn’t be able to survive the temperatures in this stream. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

The first consideration is that the stocking of exotic species in a free flowing stream is probably illegal, if not it should be. Check with your state’s fish and game agency. Keith

        well, we wouldn’t want those dangerously bizarre species like rainbow trout to infiltrate the otherwise pristine water of southwestern virginia, now would we? wayno, defender of red-eyes and other noble fauna

Response:

I am fortunate enough to own a decent stretch of a water (med.size creek) in SW Va. It has good numbers of smallmouth,red-eyes,pike,and many blue gill. In the deepest hole, it’s about 10-11 feet deep.I have measured the temp in July at the bottom. It was around 65 degrees. It keeps a pretty good flow. I put rainbows in a couple of years ago, back in my worm dunking days, and caught some trout this past spring so some must be holding over.My questions: I want to put some trout in this fall/winter…what is to be considered? How many? what type, (all I have been able to locate so far are rainbow and brookies), size? Will my neighbors be eating good, come the first good rain? Am I wasting money??? Other considerations from you folk would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Tim Long

Some questions to which you may wish to have answers, YMMV, of course: What is my goal, and what is my budget?  Then _my_ first call would be to the State – whatever the fish, game, wildlife, natural resources, etc. Department is called in Va. What do you own, i.e., do you actually own the creek, or just the banks, or the banks and bottom, or….?  How many total owners (if known) of/on the entire creek?  Does it originate and terminate on private land, and remain so bounded?  Will they participate?  How about the State?  What about tagging?  Some State Wildlife Dept/Dept. Nat. Resources/Fish and Game, etc. (like So. Carolina’s DNR) will even supply kits.  Can you impound, impede, restrict, or control the flow in any way? You mention holdovers – does the creek appear to completely freeze, or did you mean from you last stocking?  Also, you said you put rainbows, but caught trout.  Did you catch rainbows? What other species and sizes are swimming (to avoid the whole "native" debate…<G) there now, and when and where was any other stocking done? What was stocked? I would also think size of the stockers would be important, as they might simply become prey – that will simply be a location decision, based upon type, size, and number of likely preditory candidates. HTH? R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Before you buy.

Response:

Considering the expense and effort being exerted out here in the west (and its just getting started) to restore our native trout, specifically cutthroat, a little consideration before carrying our five gallon buckets of rainbows and brookies to our favorite trout stream would have been appropriate I think. Keith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The first consideration is that the stocking of exotic species in a free flowing stream is probably illegal, if not it should be. Check with your state’s fish and game agency. Keith well, we wouldn’t want those dangerously bizarre species like rainbow trout to infiltrate the otherwise pristine water of southwestern virginia, now would we? wayno, defender of red-eyes and other noble fauna

Response:

Question:

The New Year is an occasion to separate our past from our future. Let’s gather what is best from our past and use it as a foundation to begin anew. Happy New Year ! — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

The New Year is an occasion to separate our past from our future. Let’s gather what is best from our past and use it as a foundation to begin anew. Happy New Year ! — Ken Fortenberry

yeah, yeah, yeah… if you think for one little second that this here post of yours is gonna save you a whuppin come may, you’re sadly mistaken pal. jeff, tom, wayno, PJ, and i got some special steel tipped wadin’ boots on order to urge you upstream  :) Happy New Year Everyone! Walt — Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com For Book & Print Auctions: http://www.amazon.com/seller/mariebooks Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search/dhome.html?id=33… P.O. Box 5112, Banner Elk, NC 28604

Response:

yeah, yeah, yeah… if you think for one little second that this here post of yours is gonna save you a whuppin come may, you’re sadly mistaken pal. jeff, tom, wayno, PJ, and i got some special steel tipped wadin’ boots on order to urge you upstream  :) Happy New Year Everyone! Walt

Not to worry Ken, if those NC hicks get a little nasty, just hop in the Mazda and you’ll be safe. Peter BTW, your toast had very appropo sentiments for ROFF.

Response:

The New Year is an occasion to separate our past from our future. Let’s gather what is best from our past and use it as a foundation to begin anew.

Wise words, Ken. Happy new year to you and to everyone on ROFF. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

if you think for one little second that this here post of yours is gonna save you a whuppin come may, you’re sadly mistaken pal. … Not to worry Ken, if those NC hicks get a little nasty, just hop in the Mazda and you’ll be safe.

On the one hand we’re talkin’ about an alleged ass whuppin’ by a bunch of geriatric rednecks that think walking to the fridge for a beer constitutes a good days hike and on the other we’re talking about near certain flaming death in a Canadian pick up driven by a certifiable lunatic with a Jeff Gordon delusion. No offense, Peter, but I’ll take my chances with the rednecks. Worst comes to worst I can always outrun ‘em. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

On the one hand we’re talkin’ about an alleged ass whuppin’ by a bunch of geriatric rednecks that think walking to the fridge for a beer constitutes a good days hike and on the other we’re talking about near certain flaming death in a Canadian pick up driven by a certifiable lunatic with a Jeff Gordon delusion. No offense, Peter, but I’ll take my chances with the rednecks. Worst comes to worst I can always outrun ‘em. — Ken Fortenberry

Oh, OK – wrong about the delusion though – pilot. Peter

Response:

um, ken…bring your runnin shoes in may.  i’ll be warmin up the truck and waitin… as a prelude to the new year, yesterday i hauled a whinin waldo down to the stream that i first plonked a fly upon (introduction was via james mcdonald roberts).  it is now designated C&R, fly fishing only. the walk down to the stream is about 30 minutes, back up is about 45, unless you’re draggin a wheezin waldo with you <G, then it’s an hour.  we both thought of you.  i know you will enjoy fishing it in may…it would also be a great place to camp overnight. an incredibly beautiful small stream holding only wild trout. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if you think for one little second that this here post of yours is gonna save you a whuppin come may, you’re sadly mistaken pal. … Not to worry Ken, if those NC hicks get a little nasty, just hop in the Mazda and you’ll be safe. On the one hand we’re talkin’ about an alleged ass whuppin’ by a bunch of geriatric rednecks that think walking to the fridge for a beer constitutes a good days hike and on the other we’re talking about near certain flaming death in a Canadian pick up driven by a certifiable lunatic with a Jeff Gordon delusion. No offense, Peter, but I’ll take my chances with the rednecks. Worst comes to worst I can always outrun ‘em. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

… i know you will enjoy fishing it in may…it would also be a great place to camp overnight. an incredibly beautiful small stream holding only wild trout.

Sounds fantastic. Waldo’s got us signed up to fish Wilson’s the first two days of Spring Fling but let’s plan on this later in the week. I’ve got everything two people need to be comfy streamside overnight except your sleeping bag. Waking up to watch the morning sun battle its way into the dark holler has got to be a hell of a lot better than waking up to the spectacle of Louie’s BVDs. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken Fortenberry: Waking up to watch the morning sun battle its way into the dark holler has got to be a hell of a lot better than waking up to the spectacle of Louie’s BVDs.

LOL.  So loud that Henry came running down-stairs to see what the commotion was all about.   Not to worry my flat-lander former friend;  I will wear appropriate attire upon arising each morning from my gentle sleep.  <g Looking forward to seeing those Carolina reprobates in March, and you in May. Dave L.

Response:

Sounds fantastic. Waldo’s got us signed up to fish Wilson’s the first two days of Spring Fling but let’s plan on this later in the week. I’ve got everything two people need to be comfy streamside overnight except your sleeping bag. Waking up to watch the morning sun battle its way into the dark holler has got to be a hell of a lot better than waking up to the spectacle of Louie’s BVDs. — Ken Fortenberry

The N/T project better cut me some slack come else, I’m going to be all colours of green and bust a gut out of envy.  I think I’m feeling a serious flu coming on — in May. (truck’s already packed) Peter

Response:

Sounds fantastic. Waldo’s got us signed up to fish Wilson’s the first two days of Spring Fling but let’s plan on this later in the week.

We need reservations to fish around Boone? Geez, maybe I’ll go to Snowbird instead<g. — Charlie…

Response:

Question:

Fellow Fly Fishers     I am starting a web site and would like to know what information and features are imortant to you. Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Paul Koulouris Shelburne, Vermont "The true joy of pursuing trout is that they live in such beautiful places"

Response:

This sounds like a great idea!! It would be good to know where the fishing is hot..and where it is not!! { In New Zealand that is!} Sharing what size trout everyone caught over the weekend and what fly they used!! I’m keen for this site!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fellow Fly Fishers     I am starting a web site and would like to know what information and features are imortant to you. Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Paul Koulouris Shelburne, Vermont "The true joy of pursuing trout is that they live in such beautiful places"

Response:

Question:

: I think you sighted Eugene Miya. He has not been seen here recently. Nope. Twern’t a wolverine. (Go Buckeyes)

What a jab. I could care less about organized sports. Dave – cruel, but fair – Mann

Gad, where’s you get that monker? Better to be fair and not cruel.

Response:

Was he carrying a chainsaw?

        Oh, I’m a lumber jack, and I’m okay….

Response:

Was he carrying a chainsaw?        Oh, I’m a lumber jack, and I’m okay….

But do you dress up in women’s just like dear old Papa?

Response:

Was he carrying a chainsaw?        Oh, I’m a lumber jack, and I’m okay…. But do you dress up in women’s just like dear old Papa?

Naw, the old man was pretty butch. Most of the women I know associate with wear pants, too.

Response:

I don’t see any reason why a woodchuck wouldn’t go up to 3000 feet–it’s not really that high. But, could your critter have been a mink? I don’t really know anything about the subtle differences between these weasly critters, but you didn’t mention mink as a possibility so I thought I’d throw it out there. Rob

Response:

Dave – I have run into Pine Martins on 3 separate occasions in the Daks. (I used to own some Ferrets as well) 2 in trees and one on the ground. I even had a tug a war over a bag of oyster crackers one afternoon.  I was sitting on the edge of a lean to and she poked her head out from under the L/T and grabbed a bag of crackers that was in my hand (I was sitting, leaning down with my wrists on my knees). Your description sounds almost Identical to all 3 (One of the ones in the tree was at about 3800′. I stopped at a trail junction in February 96 for a break and heard a slight noise and turned my head and it was about 15 feet away standing on a spruce bough.  Scared the bejeepers outta me for a second.we both looked at each other and it climbed back across the branch   to the trunk and disappeared in the spruce thicket. Good luck Rick Story 46R#4217

Response:

Dave, Did this critter have dark ears?  Cute bugger, dark ears, shortish face, black nose, blondish yellow body long black tail.  I can see it in my mind but can’t remember what it is. Jeff Wilson "And now these three remain; faith, hope and love.  But the greatest of these is love." …… Seek harmony and balance in the mountains. Find harmony and balance within…..

Response:

: I think you sighted Eugene Miya. He has not been seen here recently. Nope. Twern’t a wolverine. (Go Buckeyes) And it wasn’t Norman the Hedgehog and I wasn’t feeling paranoid. Dave – cruel, but fair – Mann

Response:

: Woodchuck, Marten or Fisher? : The track was definitely in the weasle family. One clear : center pad with 5 distinct toes. The track was about 1 : inch across which puts it squarely in between the sizes : for the marten and fisher in my track book.

: I am going to venture to say….none of the above.  Based on your description I : would say it  was a mink. : Let me know what you think and we could go around on it for fun if need be. OK, I really goofed. I went back and checked my (tiny) track book and I was way off on the track sizes. The book puts the fisher track way up around 6.5 cm. The tracks I saw were no where near that big. So that rules out the fisher. Also, the book notes that woodchucks have only 4 toes on the front and the tracks we saw had 5 toes on all 4 feet. So that rules out the woodchuck for sure (shaking his head to clear the cobwebs), as if I don’t know what a woodchuck looks like. James, One thing that surprised me was how blonde this little guy was and how big of a contrast there was between the color of the body and the almost black tail. Are minks colored like this? Also, I noted that the rear quarters had lots of fluffy fur trailing off of the back edge of the legs. I have a mental picture of minks that is much sleeker. The pic in my book is inadequate on both acounts. Judging from tracks alone, I would guess either mink or marten and yes, being by the brook would favor the mink. But what about the coloration?

: leaves off.  The ones I’ve seen have been medium- to : dark-brown (no, they weren’t in the wild, they live : at the trailside museum at the Blue Hills, which is : part of their historic range).  As far as size, I I’m pretty partial to the Bobcat over there, myself. Dave Mann           | "It is impossible, or not easy, to do                     |  noble acts without the proper equipment."

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Woodchuck, Marten or Fisher? This weekend we scared a poor critter half to death. I want it to be a Fisher but I’m not sure. It was about the size of a house cat only lower. Perhaps 10" tall. It was a dark honey blonde in color and it had a dark brown tail — almost black. The tail looked to be about 8" long and bushy. I didn’t get a good look at the head and neck but it appeared that the neck was shorter and thicker than the drawings of Martens and Fishers that I’ve seen. But then again, the coloration was nothing like any woodchuck I’ve ever seen. For that matter, the body and tail didn’t look like a woodchuck. And it moved faaaast, a lot faster than any woodchuck I’ve chased out of my wife’s garden. We came across this little guy by still mostly frozen over stream in the northern Presis in NH at an altitude of 3000 feet — a bit high for woodchucks I would think but who knows.

Also a bit high for a river otter, I would think, but I’m not sure.  Did you consider that?  They are native to New England, not real common any more, but… They look very weasel-like, long and slinky and without lots of real definite widenings or narrowings where the head or neck or shoulders begin or the tail leaves off.  The ones I’ve seen have been medium- to dark-brown (no, they weren’t in the wild, they live at the trailside museum at the Blue Hills, which is part of their historic range).  As far as size, I think of them as x inches long rather than tall… from about 18" snout to tail to maybe 30" for the big ones.  They can move very fast, swim like seals, and are pretty smart IIRC. Anyway, it’s a very cool sighting.  Thanks for posting about it. — ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::         "They write books that contradict the rocks…"

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I think you sighted Eugene Miya. He has not been seen here recently.

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Was he carrying a chainsaw? — Jeff Wilson "And now these three remain; faith, hope and love.  But the greatest of these is love." …… Seek harmony and balance in the mountains. Find harmony and balance within…..

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Woodchuck, Marten or Fisher? This weekend we scared a poor critter half to death. I want it to be a Fisher but I’m not sure. It was about the size of a house cat only lower. Perhaps 10" tall. It was a dark honey blonde in color and it had a dark brown tail — almost black. The tail looked to be about 8" long and bushy. I didn’t get a good look at the head and neck but it appeared that the neck was shorter and thicker than the drawings of Martens and Fishers that I’ve seen. But then again, the coloration was nothing like any woodchuck I’ve ever seen. For that matter, the body and tail didn’t look like a woodchuck. And it moved faaaast, a lot faster than any woodchuck I’ve chased out of my wife’s garden. We came across this little guy by still mostly frozen over stream in the northern Presis in NH at an altitude of 3000 feet — a bit high for woodchucks I would think but who knows. The track was definitely in the weasle family. One clear center pad with 5 distinct toes. The track was about 1 inch across which puts it squarely in between the sizes for the marten and fisher in my track book. This would suggest to me that it was a small fisher and not a monster marten. But again, who knows. The track was clear with no sign of any winter pad. My track book shows a padded winter track for the marten but despite the fact taht there was lots of snow on the ground, this is the end of April and I don’t know when the marten looses his winter pad, so I can’t really rule it out. The guide book I have notes that the marten usually stays up in a tree and his track is rarely seen. On the other hand, the fisher is commonly found around streams. This suggests to me that it was a fisher, just like the size does. So, I’ve convinced myself that it was NOT a marten and thus it was either a smallish fisher or a very ambitious (altitude-wise) woodchuck. What I don’t know anything about is the coloration of either the fisher or the marten. Anyone? Also, do woodchucks go up that high? Anyone? Really, it didn’t look anything like a woodchuck.

Dave, I am going to venture to say….none of the above.  Based on your description I would say it  was a mink. Let me know what you think and we could go around on it for fun if need be. James Ehlers Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service 1997 Guide of the Year Vermont Fly Fishing, Hunting, River and Woodland Outings http://pobox.com/~uncle

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Woodchuck, Marten or Fisher? This weekend we scared a poor critter half to death. I want it to be a Fisher but I’m not sure. It was about the size of a house cat only lower. Perhaps 10" tall. It was a dark honey blonde in color and it had a dark brown tail — almost black. The tail looked to be about 8" long and bushy. I didn’t get a good look at the head and neck but it appeared that the neck was shorter and thicker than the drawings of Martens and Fishers that I’ve seen. But then again, the coloration was nothing like any woodchuck I’ve ever seen. For that matter, the body and tail didn’t look like a woodchuck. And it moved faaaast, a lot faster than any woodchuck I’ve chased out of my wife’s garden. We came across this little guy by still mostly frozen over stream in the northern Presis in NH at an altitude of 3000 feet — a bit high for woodchucks I would think but who knows. The track was definitely in the weasle family. One clear center pad with 5 distinct toes. The track was about 1 inch across which puts it squarely in between the sizes for the marten and fisher in my track book. This would suggest to me that it was a small fisher and not a monster marten. But again, who knows. The track was clear with no sign of any winter pad. My track book shows a padded winter track for the marten but despite the fact taht there was lots of snow on the ground, this is the end of April and I don’t know when the marten looses his winter pad, so I can’t really rule it out. The guide book I have notes that the marten usually stays up in a tree and his track is rarely seen. On the other hand, the fisher is commonly found around streams. This suggests to me that it was a fisher, just like the size does. So, I’ve convinced myself that it was NOT a marten and thus it was either a smallish fisher or a very ambitious (altitude-wise) woodchuck. What I don’t know anything about is the coloration of either the fisher or the marten. Anyone? Also, do woodchucks go up that high? Anyone? Really, it didn’t look anything like a woodchuck. Dave Mann           | "It is impossible, or not easy, to do                     |  noble acts without the proper equipment."

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone recommend sources of "formulas" for tying leaders. I purchase a Maxima "kit" from Cabela’s which was advertised to contain "instructions" but was told by their Customer sevice rep that the mfg. does not supply such instructions. I have an old Orvis formula chart an article from Fly Fisherman which covers a few George Harvey formulas but would like to find something more extensive. Ideas? Tight Lines Ted Miller Can anyone recommend sources of "formulas" for tying leaders. I purchase a Maxima "kit" from Cabela’s which was advertised to contain "instructions" but was told by their Customer sevice rep that the mfg. does not supply such instructions. I have an old Orvis formula chart an article from Fly Fisherman which covers a few George Harvey formulas but would like to find something more extensive. Ideas? Tight Lines Ted Miller

Ted: For what it’s worth, I’ve been using George Harvey formula leaders for many years, mostly in the east but on many western rivers as well, and have found these leaders to be entirely satisfactory.  Of course, on stream I end up making all sorts of adjustments, depending on what I’m fishing and what the water is like, so I’m not sure what "formula" I would have at any given time.  The Harvey formulas are good starting points, however. Mark Faulkner

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Hi, One of my favorites, especially for Atlantic Salmon. 55 % Butt (heavy section)(mostly of 1 peice, can be 2) 25% Tapered Sections ( 4 short decending weights) 20% tippet (1 section) This is an easy formula to remember – 100" leader, and easy to work up or down in proportion For example 55" – 30 lb,   25" ( approx – 6" each) – 25lb, 20lb,15lb, 12lb,   20" – 8 lb. Works for me. Dennis Grant Atlantic FLy Fishing School Brookfield, NS

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Might also look at http://www.flyshop.com/Tactics/01-97Leaders/index.html for more information.

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Can anyone recommend sources of "formulas" for tying leaders. I purchase a Maxima "kit" from Cabela’s which was advertised to contain "instructions" but was told by their Customer sevice rep that the mfg. does not supply such instructions. I have an old Orvis formula chart an article from Fly Fisherman which covers a few George Harvey formulas but would like to find something more extensive. Ideas? Tight Lines Ted Miller

I noticed that some of those pocket version books such us "Guide of knots for leaders" have a lot of info that can be useful.   They are laminated so you could have them with you when you are fishing.  I am pretty sure you could get them in your local fishing store.   Arek.

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Ted; I bought the Maxima Kit from Cabela’s three years ago and it did come with a table of tapers. Can’t imagine why they arn’t putting it in the package now. I am providing several typical taper formulas in this posting and if you want others I will follow up based on any description of use that you provide. Enjoy! Regards, Ken Table ! Maxima Chameleon Leader size to Hook Size Size    Test    Dia     Hook 6x      2lb.    .oo5    18-24 5x      3lb.    .006    14-20 4x      4lb.    .007    10-16 3x      5lb.    .008    6-12 2x      6lb.    .009    2-10 1x      8lb.    .010    2/0-6 01x     10lb.   .012    4/0-4 02x     12lb.   .013    6/0-2 Join sections with blood knot Table 2 Maxima 60/20/20 Tapered Leader Formulas 5-7 Weight Lines 10′ Leader Test            Dia             Length 25              .020                    40" 20              .017                    27" 15              .015    (4")       (5")       6" 12 (02x)                .013    (4")       (5")       6" 10 (01x)                .012    (4")       (5")       6" 8 (1x)          .010    (4")       (5")       6" 6 (2x)          .009    (4")       (5")       24" 4 (4x)          .007    (4")       (24")       3 (5x)          .006    (24") 5-7 Weight Lines 12′ Leader Test            Dia             Length 25              .020                    52" 20              .017                    35" 15              .015            (5")       6" 12 (02x)                .013            (5")       6" 10 (01x)                .012            (5")       6" 8 (1x)          .010            (5")       6" 6 (2x)          .009            (5")       6" 4 (4x)          .007            (5")       (28") 3 (5x)          .006            (28") 8-9 Weight Lines 10′ Leader Test            Dia             Length 30              .022                    44" 25              .020                    27" 20              .017    (5")       (6")       8"" 15              .015    (5")       (6")       8" 12 (02x)                .013    (5")       (6")       8" 10 (01x)                .012    (5")       (6")       24" 8 (1x)          .010    (5")       (24") 6 (2x)          .009    (24") 8-9 Weight Lines 12′ Leader Test            Dia             Length 30              .022                    52" 25              .020                    35" 20              .017            (6")       7"" 15              .015            (6")       7" 12 (02x)                .013            (6")       7" 10 (01x)                .012            (6")       7" 8 (1x)          .010            (6")       28" 6 (2x)          .009            (28") – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone recommend sources of "formulas" for tying leaders. I purchase a Maxima "kit" from Cabela’s which was advertised to contain "instructions" but was told by their Customer sevice rep that the mfg. does not supply such instructions. I have an old Orvis formula chart an article from Fly Fisherman which covers a few George Harvey formulas but would like to find something more extensive. Ideas? Tight Lines Ted Miller

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Question:

Hi Sandy, Great idea and post on the Skinny Minny. I’m going to give them a try after Christmas. There is usually some kind of thaw for a few day in mid January in Montana and I’m going to be prepared. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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–

[ skinnies 4K ]

             –Skinny Minnies and Rapalicas– WARNING:   The following discussion may prove hazardous to your sensibilities. If you like precise definitions and are uncomfortable with gray area, abort now and read no further. Else continue.   Hot damn. I’ve been working on this for over ten years, and now I finally have it: homemade, lightweight wigglers that are quick and easy to make. I wrote about this once, or, should I say John Gierach did, about 10 years ago in fly fisherman, in an article called "Flies or Lures," where my work was reviewed along with the work of several others (A K Best?) I had some wigglers that worked then, but they were way too heavy, and took way too long to make. I posted some interim, ‘almost works’ instructions to rec.outdoors.fishing a few years ago, and immediately started a flame war about what is and isn’t fly fishing. Several readers thought the very idea of fly rod wigglers was inherently reprehensible. One reader referred to them derisively as "Skinny Minnies." I thought it was a pretty good name. I’ll have to see if I can get something published under that name. For me, wigglers have been the hardest challenge in fly tying. I have been making them for years, but I never knew–until recently–which ones would work and which ones wouldn’t. Dave Whitlock once described the balancing of homemade wigglers as "Impossibly difficult." But it ain’t so: once you’ve got it, it’s easy. BACKGROUND:   First of all–just in case there is any doubt in your mind–wigglers are absolutely deadly. Tiny, 3/8" long wigglers are absolutely dynamite on the spring creeks. In bigger water, fat, long-bodied wigglers thrown into the i pockets behind overhanging willow branches pull out big browns like a magnet. MATERIALS:    Thin super glue.    5-minute epoxy    Spawn sack—dyed brown or black if you are a perfectionist    Clear mylar sheeting (get it at the drafting supplies store, ala                          Bett’s frog lip)    any standard hook…with hook size vaguely dependant on body length.    optional: any number of rubber leg, marabou, saddle hackle additions              that can be added, as-per-your imagination. TYING (assembly) INSTRUCTIONS:    ….say for a big one…    Cut a 1/4" x 1/4" x 2" square tube of closed cell foam. Use scissors to taper off the rear end. Use a razor blade to cut a 60 degree slanted front face in the foam. Slit what will eventually be the belly of the fly (lure?) and push in a flattened split shot, along with a dab of epoxy. This "belly-mounted" ballast is critical. This (belly ballast) was the missing part of the puzzle, for me. With a bouyant tail, a little ballast in the belly and slightly weighted bill, they all orient downwards, and dive and wiggle like crazy when you pull on the line.     Roll the foam body up like a cigarette (perhaps you learned how to do this i back in the late 1960’s)–in a rectangle of spawn sack. Twist up the loose spawn sack at the rear end, and glue the tight knot at the rear end with a spot of thin super glue. Clip off the excesss spawn sack. Twist the spawn sack flat over the slanted front end of the foam body. Use a small amount of thin super glue to pin the spawn sack flat against the slanted front end of the foam.   Cut a rectangle of rigid, clear mylar sheeting for the diving lip. Rough it up with sand paper. Glue the front end of the slanted foam body onto the diving lip with epoxy. Set it aside to dry.    Once the epoxy has hardened, use scissors to trim back the mylar sheeting into a Rapala-like diving lip. Glue an additional, flattened split shot on the lower edge of the bill.    At this point, you can add do-dads. Sew in rubber legs, flashabou, saddle hackles, beady eyes….whatever you want. What you have, at this point, is a soft-bodied lure that dives and wiggles like a daemon, and yet is no heavier than many commercially tied streamer flies. You can toss them easily with a fly rod. HOW TO FISH THE FLURE:   Use a bodkin needle to poke a hole through the bill. Push the tippet through the hole. Throw a half hitch around the body of the lure. Use a needle to push the tippet through the foam at its rear end. Tie on any hook you like. Fish it upstream and across, like a streamer. You may have to use toenail clippers to "fine tune" the action of the lure. Then try fishing it it downstream, swimming it back and forth at the top of likely looking pockets. Pay attention and be ready to set the hook. You’ll get plenty of strikes. You’ll find more big fish than you ever imagined. I fished some of these last summer on the Big Horn, and the results were nearly indescribable. The only flaw at that point, was that only about 1 in 4 flies I made worked (wiggled) right. Now they all do. It’s all in the belly ballast.

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Question:

Hello, I am new to this newsgroup and fly fishing.  Please provide me with any information on fly fishing in south central Pennsylvania.  Any help at all would be greatly appreciated. Tight Lines, Wendel

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Head for the Yellow Breeches near Carlisle, PA.  It’s beautiful and it’s convenient…in fact too convenient on weekends wwhen way too many folks show up.  My suggestion, take a day off from work and check it out.  Also, be sure and swing by Yellow Breeches Outfitters. Some really nice helpful folks who can tell you where to fish, etc.  Cold Spring Anglers also helpful. Good luck, and have fun! Kevin

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Don’t neglect the top-notch smallmouth fishing in the Susquehanna and Juniata rivers.  I drive past the potomac (which I love) several times a year to tangle with those porkchops. Dave

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There are several streams in the area, some are stocked andd several have fly fishing only sections. A great reference is Penn. Trout Streams by Meck, available at most fly shops.E-mail me for more info.

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Question:

Apart from all the other advantages, hand tied leaders offer two distinct advantages for me.         1. I seem to present the fly better with a hand tied leader         2. One of cost, they are distinctly cheaper.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1. Can you recommend a [in the surf] leader formula for 1/0-3/0 flies perch, stripers are the prize The Lefty Kreh/Mark Sosin book Practical Fishing Knots II gives a good methodology for constructing saltwater leaders. I use all Mason hard mono for my saltwater leaders, which I tie in the methods suggested in Kreh/Sosin. (i.e. Surgeon’s loops, bimini twists, huffnagle knots, etc.) 2. Can you surfcasters get anecdotal about your line selection (i.e. what is better in waves… a 30′ shooting head attached to mono? or a 30′ head attached to some floating line? 3.This mono curled like Harpo Marx in my shooting basket. I would think some real fly line (like my 7 wt 444 sinking line) would at least lay flat in the bottom of my basket. thanks for the know-how Check out the Teeny running lines. They’re made of limp, braided material which doesn’t curl up and will shoot through the guides easily in case it gets tangled. They’re neutrally-bouyant rather than high-floating like floating fly lines. I like them better than the level fly line-type running lines, but they’re a bit pricey. (Cope & McPheter’s carries them in the Bay area…) Regards, Fred

One word of caution about both braided shooting line and level flyline for use in the surf. These lines can pick up particles of sand and abrade both your guides and your fly rod.  It depends upon the nature of the beach, but under the right conditions you can ruin a fly rod in one outing. However under some circumstances these shooting lines can work great. Ian Walker

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1. Can you recommend a [in the surf] leader formula for 1/0-3/0 flies perch, stripers are the prize

I had the same problem with weighted clousers of that size and still have the bumps on the back of my head to prove it! Someone replied to my post on this matter and suggested that I try using a shorter leader while someone else replied suggesting that I use a uniform diameter mono leader that is relatively stiff. I tried combining the suggestions by attaching a three foot section of 12#test Berkely Big Game to the end of my Fenwick 9wt WF intermediate sinking line. The fly moved better in the air during false casts, but the mono just couldn’t turn over the fly for a straight presentation. Not that the presentation is essential for the fish, but it helps to keep the line from fouling even before I start stripping. This worked a bit better when I dropped the fly size down to a #2 clouser, but it didn’t solve my original problem. Longer mono sections proved worse in practice and shorter tapered leaders didn’t do it either. I’m still stumped. I recently purchased a 12wt for fishing rougher surf on the south shore of Long Island and was sort of hoping that the line weight increase would help in this situation (I’ll be casting some heavy epoxy flys too). Too bad…. 3.This mono curled like Harpo Marx in my shooting basket. I would think some real fly line (like my 7 wt 444 sinking line) would at least lay flat in the bottom of my basket.

Are you using the collapsable variety or the dishpan with/without mono fingers? I use the collapsable and thought that was the problem. Then I fished with another salty flyrodder who had the dishpan (without mono fingers) and he had the same problem…. HH&TL,       Jose

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that being easier to tie is the ONLY possible advantage that the surgeons knot has over the blood. From my informal tests, I believe the blood knot to be stronger.  Your mileage may vary, but I’d think that there would be a definite answer to this question.  Namely: which is stronger a properly tied blood or properly tied surgeons knot. I have found the surgeons knot superior when the diameters of the two lines differs by more than a few x’s.  This happens mostly when I use a knotless leader and have changed flies a few times too often. I’ve found the blood knot clearly superior when the diameters are nearly the same…as they are when I’m tying my on leaders.  They don’t take long to tie, either, once you get the hang of it.  My biggest problem with the blood knot: I can’t tie it while smoking my pipe!

I am sorry that I did not state this exception in my initial post.  I definitely agree that when the diameters are quite different, I have a difficult time getting a blood knot to hold.  I generally use 3 wraps on each side of the knot, but I will use possibly 5 wraps when tying different size diameters together.  I should possibly consider the surgeons knot in this instance. I am happy to hear someone else who doesn’t think the blood knot is hard to tie.  It is simple: a couple wraps and through, a couple wraps and through, wet, tighten, snip, fish. question: do any of you put zap-a-gap or something similar on the blood knots in your leaders?  Doesit make a difference?

I have tried, but I really have not seen any difference.  It might help prevent the blood knot pulling out in the circumstances outlined above. Enough rambling on my part.  I like the often-chastised blood knot. -tgades

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I would like to cast a vote for tying your own leaders.  True, knotless leaders are easy and do not pick up moss and debris but a hand-tied leader will improve your presentation with drys if you use a hard/soft leader/tippet system.  FlyFisherman has an article in the July edition that talks about it some.  I’ve tied my own leaders for about a year and a half and think they’re worth the effort.

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I would go with the handtied leader.  I use a permanent butt section   attached to my flyline with a nail knot and with a perfection loop in the   end.  I put a perfection loop in the end of my leaders and use a loop to   loop connection.  The flyfish listserv has had extensive discussion   recently concerning failures of braided leader connections at the point   of attachment to the flyline. —   Dept. of Chemistry Centre College 600 W. Walnut St. Danville, KY 40422 phone (606)238-5416

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Conrad,         What do I have to do to subscribe to this flyfish listserv? Jim

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" If you want, I can provide size and length parameters for most species, just tell me which ones you are going for. (and yes, we do sell ready made leaders, too!) Tight Lines Tackle Shop and Guide Service Lockeport, Nova Scotia, Canada

And now a question to bcurry and other ff surfcasters. I was surfcasting last night in Santa Cruz and I had a bitch throwing a 1/0 deceiver. My rodbuilder flipped me a reel to try. This reel (in this order) backing, clear mono, and a 30′ shooting head had a six foot mono leader that I practiced for 2 weeks on grass. All was well. I have a 9′graphite 12 wght rod and the loaner reel/shooting head is about the same. Added to the mono "leader" I added 12′ 5 lb test leader and my deceiver It was foul city. In the surf, with a 30 foot shooting head 2 questions come to mind: 1. Can you recommend a [in the surf] leader formula for 1/0-3/0 flies perch, stripers are the prize 2. Can you surfcasters get anecdotal about your line selection (i.e. what is better in waves… a 30′ shooting head attached to mono? or a 30′ head attached to some floating line? 3.This mono curled like Harpo Marx in my shooting basket. I would think some real fly line (like my 7 wt 444 sinking line) would at least lay flat in the bottom of my basket. thanks for the know-how

Response:

1. Can you recommend a [in the surf] leader formula for 1/0-3/0 flies perch, stripers are the prize

The Lefty Kreh/Mark Sosin book Practical Fishing Knots II gives a good methodology for constructing saltwater leaders. I use all Mason hard mono for my saltwater leaders, which I tie in the methods suggested in Kreh/Sosin. (i.e. Surgeon’s loops, bimini twists, huffnagle knots, etc.) 2. Can you surfcasters get anecdotal about your line selection (i.e. what is better in waves… a 30′ shooting head attached to mono? or a 30′ head attached to some floating line? 3.This mono curled like Harpo Marx in my shooting basket. I would think some real fly line (like my 7 wt 444 sinking line) would at least lay flat in the bottom of my basket. thanks for the know-how

Check out the Teeny running lines. They’re made of limp, braided material which doesn’t curl up and will shoot through the guides easily in case it gets tangled. They’re neutrally-bouyant rather than high-floating like floating fly lines. I like them better than the level fly line-type running lines, but they’re a bit pricey. (Cope & McPheter’s carries them in the Bay area…) Regards, Fred

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I’m just getting started flyfishing, and I’m hooked. Though I’ve been using borrowed gear, I’m going to buy my own rod/reel soon. Unless I hear lots of negative reports about it (I’ve heard tons of good reports), I’m goin to go with the Orvis Clearwater Henry’s Fork outfit (8.5ft/5wt), since about $150-175 is my limit. My real question here, though, is about leaders. I know that Orvis (esp. since I’m buying my rod/reel/line from them) has several different kinds of leader systems: knotless leaders, braided leader system (which seems pretty snazzy), and the ol’ tie ‘em yourself from scratch method (which appeals to the traditionalist in me). Should I start with a knotless or braided leader/tippet system? or Should I learn to tie leaders myself (using books/friends/etc. as advice)? Also, I’m wondering about waders, but I’ve posted that separately. Thanks Steven Jarvis

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I’m just getting started flyfishing, and I’m hooked. My real question here, though, is about leaders. I know that Orvis (esp. since I’m buying my rod/reel/line from them) has several different kinds of leader systems: knotless leaders, braided leader system (which seems pretty snazzy), and the ol’ tie ‘em yourself from scratch method (which appeals to the traditionalist in me). Should I start with a knotless or braided leader/tippet system? or Should I learn to tie leaders myself (using books/friends/etc. as advice)?

Use the braided leader/tippet.  I do and like them a lot.   A sunny day,      a box of midges,         and a wandering stream…   Man, this MUST be heaven!   <    Steve Kulpa    <<

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I like to use knotless tapered leaders. maybe because I’m lazy, but there may be some very slight advantages with them. There are no knots to create drag, and the material has no "memory" (the hand tied t.l.’s i bought at the Yellowstone Angler took forever to straighten out). Also, I noticed that the braided sections can sometimes soak enough water to make them ride just under the surface of the water, which can be annoying. However, these factors are so slight that if your traditional tendencies say tie them yourself then that’s what you should do. Let us know if you have ?’s about size, lengths etc.

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Should you decide to tie your own leaders, for God’s sake free yourself from the tyranny of the blood knot.  You can learn the surgeons knot in about 30 seconds. It’s quicker, its better and it HOLDS.  Remember, all this is supposed to be fun, not rocket science. RLPPT

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My real question here, though, is about leaders. I know that Orvis (esp. since I’m buying my rod/reel/line from them) has several different kinds of leader systems: knotless leaders, braided leader system (which seems pretty snazzy), and the ol’ tie ‘em yourself from scratch method (which appeals to the traditionalist in me). Should I start with a knotless or braided leader/tippet system? or Should I learn to tie leaders myself (using books/friends/etc. as advice)?

Hi, I’d recommend the traditionalist choice, which happens to be the cheapest, too. Learning to tie your own leaders isn’t hard, and works really well, because you can change at will, when the occasion calls for it. Also, you’ll find that some species just don’t have pre-made leaders to buy (i.e. pickerel, which need a 10-15# test, but with a short 6" 30# opr more section to avoid "bite-offs". If you wantr, I can provide size and length parameters for most species, just tell me which ones you are going for. (and yes, we do sell ready made leaders, too!) Tight Lines Tackle Shop and Guide Service Lockeport, Nova Scotia, Canada

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Should you decide to tie your own leaders, for God’s sake free yourself from the tyranny of the blood knot.  You can learn the surgeons knot in about 30 seconds. It’s quicker, its better and it HOLDS.  Remember, all this is supposed to be fun, not rocket science. RLPPT

I think that being easier to tie is the ONLY possible advantage that the surgeons knot has over the blood.  From my informal tests, I believe the blood knot to be stronger.  Your mileage may vary, but I’d think that there would be a definite answer to this question.  Namely: which is stronger a properly tied blood or properly tied surgeons knot. I have personally found the answer to be the blood. -tgades

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: Should you decide to tie your own leaders, for God’s sake free yourself : from the tyranny of the blood knot.  You can learn the surgeons knot in : about 30 seconds. : It’s quicker, its better and it HOLDS.  Remember, all this is supposed to : be fun, not rocket science. RLPPT : I think that being easier to tie is the ONLY possible advantage that the : surgeons knot has over the blood.  From my informal tests, I believe the blood : knot to be stronger.  Your mileage may vary, but I’d think that there would : be a definite answer to this question.  Namely: which is stronger a properly : tied blood or properly tied surgeons knot. I have found the surgeons knot superior when the diameters of the two lines differs by more than a few x’s.  This happens mostly when I use a knotless leader and have changed flies a few times too often. I’ve found the blood knot clearly superior when the diameters are nearly the same…as they are when I’m tying my on leaders.  They don’t take long to tie, either, once you get the hang of it.  My biggest problem with the blood knot: I can’t tie it while smoking my pipe! question: do any of you put zap-a-gap or something similar on the blood knots in your leaders?  Doesit make a difference? — Laboratory for Applied Logic    Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho             www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster

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