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Question:

Really? My dad showed me the old rub along the nose trick, said he learned the trick from the old Orvis cane rod builders…

____ I know. Its an old wive’s-tale and was used long before Orvis started doing rods. The secret is SMOOTH and CLEAN. The Four Star AAAA Steel wool is used to shine the ferrule clean. It has minimum wear. For as much as you or anyone else will do (by hand) isn’t worth worrying about. However; even in a lathe spinning at high rpms, AAAA Steel Wool won’t wear unless you polish for a long time for the last micro-fitting of a set of ferrules. This is used not to wear anything off as much as polishing to the final MICRO FINISH that is smooth for a tight fit without lubrication. What most don’t realize is a dirty ferrule with lube on it only COMPOUNDS the wear and most ferrules are worn quicker with lube and dirt mixed, or lube and salts mixed, etc. Not unlike an oil-stone. This is why Nickel Silver Ferrules should never be lubed but kept clean no matter how many years anyone has been fishing. Remember this, one can be wrong for a lifetime and still believe they are right. I’m reminded of the many fly fishermen who thought it was great to use carbontet to dissolve animal fats for dry fly fishing. Of course, thousands of them died of heart failure because they (at that time) all thought it was the greatest thing to do without scientific studies. That said, just keep your ferrules clean. You may use only FOUR AAAA super/extra fine steel wool without worrying about adding wear. After that, clean your ferrules with alcohol once in a while including a Q-tip inside the female ferrule. I should add that at the BASE of each female ferrule should be a guide. This guide, immediately next to the base of the ferrule is what will relieve the torque and/or casting pressures from that ferrule and fit. Everyone that has a bamboo fly rod, if your ferrules don’t have a guide at the start/base of each ferrule, your fly rod is engineered incorrectly regarding the positioning of the guides. Once guides are torqued or begin to ‘rock’ it isn’t long when those ferrules should be replaced and/or the fly rod reguided, if possible due to taper design. These are just a few added notes I can offer to this thread for others to ponder. You can’t make a choice until you have TWO THINGS to choose from. Clean, is gooder. Mr. Gink

Response:

Calling people names only makes you look ignorant. If you can’t argue with logic and common sense and if you don’t know how to read, then don’t mess with experience. It’s Mr.G. to you. See if you can remember that. Lastly, there is no wear to worry about with a once in a year rub with AAAA steel wool. Next time you’re in a hardware store, look at it. This is a product ALL Bamboo Fly Rod Makers and Ferrule Makers use in manufacturing Bamboo Fly Rods. Just because the word "Steel" is in the term, "Steel Wool" doesn’t make it abusive to cleaning the scum off a male ferrule. I think everyone else knows how to decide what they want to do and how to do it. _ Mr.G. http://www.gink.com "the sage continues"

gink.vcf

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Response:

George G. writes:

(snip) I think everyone else knows how to decide what they want to do and how to do it. _

Exactly, George! Ron Kusse says use a clean soft cloth after every use. Under no circumstances should you use anything abrasive — when you polish you remove a tiny portion of the surface material. Eventually you will have two ferrules that do not fit. Kusse has been building cane rods for more than 50 years. I think I will go along with his opinion on this one. Dave LaCourse

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Actually, this is a quite common practice with bamboo rods. Not really necessary with graphite rods as one can twist the sections apart. I did just this Today with my Orvis flea. Ferrules pop loose with ease. I imagine there will come a time when inner ferrule joint will need cleanin’! Not really a topic for discussion, for obvious reasons.

____Because I’m watching you Guyz. Mr.Gink "the saga continues" http://www.gink.com/

Response:

Ordinary white candle wax. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alright, I know I knew this once, but getting up there in age has spoilt more than just my memory, so help me out here: what’s the best stuff to put on ferrules to keep ‘em from sticking? Just rub some hard paraffin on them? I’ve got this one rod that suddenly started acting up…. tgb

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This is not a good idea, the natural substances contained here will eat into and damage metal ferrules, and dried salt and other materials is more likely to cause ferrules to stick than make them easier to remove. Ordinary white candle wax is the best material for treating ferrules. An occasional cleaning with alcohol, and a rub down with a piece of white candle will ensure long and trouble free life. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, my much older brother Hank, who taught me what fishin was, showed me

Response:

This is not a good idea, the natural substances contained here will eat into and damage metal ferrules, and dried salt and other materials is more likely to cause ferrules to stick than make them easier to remove. Ordinary white candle wax is the best material for treating ferrules.

I vote for Ivory soap. –Steve

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Alright, I know I knew this once, but getting up there in age has spoilt more than just my memory, so help me out here: what’s the best stuff to put on ferrules to keep ‘em from sticking? Just rub some hard paraffin on them? I’ve got this one rod that suddenly started acting up….

To which numerous kind individuals responded both here and via email, all of whom I’d like to thank. Solved my problem. tgb P.S. And as to the facial grease suggestion posted on the NG, hey, at least it wasn’t the "rubbed well with the navel lint from a legal-aged virgin" suggestion I got via email. Kinda feel like Andy Warhol’s "Dracula" now…. tgb

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Ol Danl writes: Well, my much older brother Hank, who taught me what fishin was, showed me one cure for sticky ferrules. I know I’m gonna draw the hecklers in record time for this, but the man (I assume a man) asked a question. Just take the male ferrule piece (oh y’all are gonna have some fun with me!) and roll it in that natural grease pit between either nostril and your face. ***Not on the inside of your nose!*** There its done, and I’m proud of it. You guys wait just a second….there…I’m now in the traditional flamee position….

No flames, Danl. Just facts. What you suggest is probably ok with graphite or glass rods, but the ferrules on a boo rod should never be "greased" in any way, shape, or form. Keep them clean. When you take the rod apart, clean everything with a clean cloth, especially the ferrules. And keep them dry. Dave LaCourse

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Or Albolene? Judging from the 1001 uses described, one more won’t hurt.. Herman This is not a good idea, the natural substances contained here will eat into and damage metal ferrules, and dried salt and other materials is more likely to cause ferrules to stick than make them easier to remove. Ordinary white candle wax is the best material for treating ferrules. I vote for Ivory soap. –Steve

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

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…..legal-aged virgin….

Huh? What means?

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Wolfie in some parts of the country it is 18, not "If old enough to bleed, old enough to butcher." Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …..legal-aged virgin…. Huh? What means?

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…..legal-aged virgin…. Huh? What means?

I believe that the age of consent in Oklahoma is still 13 years old, but they have to wait till 21 to buy beer that is of more than 3.2 content. Big Dale Big Dale

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…..legal-aged virgin…. Huh? What means?

In some locations, it’s an 11 year old girl who can outrun her brothers. {:-) George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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…..legal-aged virgin…. Huh? What means?

Ready for a wayno . . . changing? Peter the always helpful

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, my much older brother Hank, who taught me what fishin was, showed me one cure for sticky ferrules. I know I’m gonna draw the hecklers in record time for this, but the man (I assume a man) asked a question. Just take the male ferrule piece (oh y’all are gonna have some fun with me!) and roll it in that natural grease pit between either nostril and your face. ***Not on the inside of your nose!*** There its done, and I’m proud of it. You guys wait just a second….there…I’m now in the traditional flamee position…. Ol’ Danl Finally found a use for having eaten all that Southern fried everything…yum Alright, I know I knew this once, but getting up there in age has spoilt more than just my memory, so help me out here: what’s the best stuff to put on ferrules to keep ‘em from sticking? Just rub some hard paraffin on them? I’ve got this one rod that suddenly started acting up…. tgb +++++ NEVER! Use the oils from the side of the nose on Nickel Silver or any ferrules except graphite (which doesn’t give a damned about anything) The salts and amino acids will destroy your ferrules. What you need to do is CLEAN THE FERRULES not lubricate them. Smooth is the trick and dirt free. — Mr.Gink "the saga continues" http://www.gink.com/

Really? My dad showed me the old rub along the nose trick, said he learned the trick from the old Orvis cane rod builders…

Response:

Clean the ferrules and polish with AAAA Steel Wool. Do not use any kind of lubricant no matter what others tell you. Just keep the micro finish clean and shiny. Lubricants will speed up your ferrules to wearing out. You don’t want any movement at all. Use a circular motion to turn the male ferrule in the very fine steel wool. Again, never use skin oils ever again on your male ferrules to put them together. Smoothness comes with a high micro mirror finish. Remember that. Mr. Gink

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Steel wool will abrade the ferrules and is a bad thing to do. It will ruin the fit in a relatively short time. No abrasives of any sort whatsoever should be used on ferrules, quite irrespective of type. Lubricants are designed to reduce wear, and that is what they do. This is also why they are called lubricants. various liquid lubricants may cause problems with some suction ferrules. Solid paraffin wax will not. Ferrules treated with wax should be cleaned occasionally with alcohol, to ensure that no abrasives are present, and then re waxed. Just a short rub with a white candle and a polish up is all that is required. In the course of forty years fishing, with all sorts of rods, under all sorts of conditions. Ordinary white candle way has proved its worth. I have never had a rod ferrule stick, and I have never had any problems with wear. If you can not decide what to do about your ferrules, or what to apply, then at least keep them clean and dry. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Clean the ferrules and polish with AAAA Steel Wool. Do not use any kind of lubricant no matter what others tell you. Just keep the micro finish clean and shiny. Lubricants will speed up your ferrules to wearing out. You don’t want any movement at all. Use a circular motion to turn the male ferrule in the very fine steel wool. Again, never use skin oils ever again on your male ferrules to put them together. Smoothness comes with a high micro mirror finish. Remember that. Mr. Gink

Do NOT use steel wool, nor any other abrasive on nickel silver ferrules. That’s probably what made a mess of Jerke’s early bamboo rods, those whose ferrules flopped! Clean the ferrules, then give them a quick swipe on two sides with hard paraffin. A white candle works well. Listen to Mike Connor. That noise from the Snake River will lead you astray! Paraffin also works well with glass and carbon. Before you buy.

Response:

Alright, I know I knew this once, but getting up there in age has spoilt more than just my memory, so help me out here: what’s the best stuff to put on ferrules to keep ‘em from sticking? Just rub some hard paraffin on them? I’ve got this one rod that suddenly started acting up…. tgb

Response:

Well, my much older brother Hank, who taught me what fishin was, showed me one cure for sticky ferrules. I know I’m gonna draw the hecklers in record time for this, but the man (I assume a man) asked a question. Just take the male ferrule piece (oh y’all are gonna have some fun with me!) and roll it in that natural grease pit between either nostril and your face. ***Not on the inside of your nose!*** There its done, and I’m proud of it. You guys wait just a second….there…I’m now in the traditional flamee position…. Ol’ Danl Finally found a use for having eaten all that Southern fried everything…yum – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alright, I know I knew this once, but getting up there in age has spoilt more than just my memory, so help me out here: what’s the best stuff to put on ferrules to keep ‘em from sticking? Just rub some hard paraffin on them? I’ve got this one rod that suddenly started acting up…. tgb

Response:

Actually, this is a quite common practice with bamboo rods. Not really necessary with graphite rods as one can twist the sections apart. I did just this Today with my Orvis flea. Ferrules pop loose with ease. I imagine there will come a time when inner ferrule joint will need cleanin’! Not really a topic for discussion, for obvious reasons. **Panhandling for a better tomorrow!**

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, my much older brother Hank, who taught me what fishin was, showed me one cure for sticky ferrules. I know I’m gonna draw the hecklers in record time for this, but the man (I assume a man) asked a question. Just take the male ferrule piece (oh y’all are gonna have some fun with me!) and roll it in that natural grease pit between either nostril and your face. ***Not on the inside of your nose!*** There its done, and I’m proud of it. You guys wait just a second….there…I’m now in the traditional flamee position…. Ol’ Danl Finally found a use for having eaten all that Southern fried everything…yum Alright, I know I knew this once, but getting up there in age has spoilt more than just my memory, so help me out here: what’s the best stuff to put on ferrules to keep ‘em from sticking? Just rub some hard paraffin on them? I’ve got this one rod that suddenly started acting up…. tgb

Response:

Just take the male ferrule piece (oh y’all are gonna have some fun with me!) and roll it in that natural grease pit between either nostril and your face.

Just make sure you put some parafin on your nose first, Danl. BTW, why does everyone think that place is particularly greasy? Is yours? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Well, my much older brother Hank, who taught me what fishin was, showed me one cure for sticky ferrules. I know I’m gonna draw the hecklers in record time for this, but the man (I assume a man) asked a question. Just take the male ferrule piece (oh y’all are gonna have some fun with me!) and roll it in that natural grease pit between either nostril and your face. ***Not on the inside of your nose!*** There its done, and I’m proud of it. You guys wait just a second….there…I’m now in the traditional flamee position…. Ol’ Danl

Dan, I made a post some years ago about this but it seems to have dropped off Deja.com darned it. There have been a number of articles in fishing mags as to why this is not a good idea. Salts etc. I rolled a spinning rod metal ferrule on the side of my nose once and as far as I know the damned thing is still stuck together. I gave the rod away. If you would like I can flame you provided you can wait around until I search upstairs for the article or maybe someone else will do it in the meantime. I do like to quote this article as it is the author who does the dirty work (calls you a birdbrain) instead of me. Much safer for me dontchaknow.<G I’ll see if I can find the article as it is quite good and is worthy of repeating. Kiyu

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, my much older brother Hank, who taught me what fishin was, showed me one cure for sticky ferrules. I know I’m gonna draw the hecklers in record time for this, but the man (I assume a man) asked a question. Just take the male ferrule piece (oh y’all are gonna have some fun with me!) and roll it in that natural grease pit between either nostril and your face. ***Not on the inside of your nose!*** There its done, and I’m proud of it. You guys wait just a second….there…I’m now in the traditional flamee position…. Ol’ Danl Finally found a use for having eaten all that Southern fried everything…yum Alright, I know I knew this once, but getting up there in age has spoilt more than just my memory, so help me out here: what’s the best stuff to put on ferrules to keep ‘em from sticking? Just rub some hard paraffin on them? I’ve got this one rod that suddenly started acting up…. tgb

+++++ NEVER! Use the oils from the side of the nose on Nickel Silver or any ferrules except graphite (which doesn’t give a damned about anything) The salts and amino acids will destroy your ferrules. What you need to do is CLEAN THE FERRULES not lubricate them. Smooth is the trick and dirt free. — Mr.Gink "the saga continues" http://www.gink.com/

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Question:

Hi All Have a look at our club site at http://www.gibbboyd.freeserve.co.uk and let me know what you think and what you would like to get from a flyfishing site. May the fish be with you Colin

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I’m proud to announce the beginning of the OutdoorFocus.com Online Photo Contest. This is a new concept in online contests. Beginning January 1, 2000, all visitors to the OutdoorFocus.com website will have a chance to view contest entries and vote for their favorite photo. Votes will be tallied each week, and a new winner will be selected. Winning photos will be removed from further participation in the contest, but all others are automatically re-entered for the next week until the end of the month, when the contest topic changes. Each month, the topic for the photo contest will change. January 2000’s topic for the photo contest is Muskellunge Fishing. All entries must be related to the contest topic to be considered. Entrants must read the contest rules before submitting a photo. Rules can be found at http://www.outdoorfocus.com/contestrules.htm

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Question:

Lefty Kreh’s Video is one of the best So is Tom Whites Available at most fly shops — Free Lake Fly Fishing On-Line Magazine Lake Fly Fishing CD’s, Videos, Books http://www.rural.escape.ca/angling_north/fishing/organz.htm

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JHF Aren’t you lucky that George does not spam this group about videos! This would be the sort of helpful response you would have had on your last question if he had not pushed his floatant (can’t possibly remember it’s name; ))on this NG. David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could someone recommend some good fly fishing videos dealing with lessons in casting? Got my first fly rod and reel this week and want to learn.

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I agree! Excellent and enjoyable. A "best Buy" in my library of fly fishing "stuff" Regards from Montreal John Brkich

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Oh, by the way, that Video (Volume I) is available at Bob Marriott’s Flyfishing Store at http://www.bobmarriotts.com/. — Will West Lionheart Fishing Safari http://www.lionheartsafari.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could someone recommend some good fly fishing videos dealing with lessons in casting? Got my first fly rod and reel this week and want to learn.

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My favorite videos are Doug Swishers Casting Tapes. Also has a few tapes on Strategies for Catching Trout. His tapes, Gary Borgers Tapes and lots of reading taught me to be the trout maniac that I am today.

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I whole heartedly second Will’s testimonial to Mel Krieger’s casting video. It really shows the dynamics of the fly cast, and how to execute it. Gary Borger has a series of teaching videos out that are also very helpful, especially the one on nymphing. Good luck… Jason Wiles. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The best one we’ve seen is Essence of Fly Casting with Mel krieger. Really good for the beginner. One you can watch and then go out and apply. — Will West Lionheart Fishing Safari http://www.lionheartsafari.com Could someone recommend some good fly fishing videos dealing with lessons in casting? Got my first fly rod and reel this week and want to learn.

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Could someone recommend some good fly fishing videos dealing with lessons in casting? Got my first fly rod and reel this week and want to learn.

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The best one we’ve seen is Essence of Fly Casting with Mel krieger. Really good for the beginner. One you can watch and then go out and apply. — Will West Lionheart Fishing Safari http://www.lionheartsafari.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could someone recommend some good fly fishing videos dealing with lessons in casting? Got my first fly rod and reel this week and want to learn.

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Question:

Anyone have info on fly fishing at Lake Casitas and/or along the beach in Ventura/Santa Barbara area? Looking to do some fishing closer to home. Thanks Jeff M.

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Check with Jandd Mountaineering in Santa Barbara 882-1195. They have a fly shop and might be able to help you. If not there is a new shop in Santa Barbara called "MacDuff’s" in the 1000 or 1100 block of State St. that should be able to help. Surf Perch fishing is pretty good with crab patterns along the Ventura beach area. Wes along the beach – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -in Ventura/Santa Barbara area? Looking to do some fishing closer to home. Thanks Jeff M.

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Question:

says… Did I miss something? I don’t recall him admitting to be a PETA supporter/member. In fact, his fishing activities, be they what they may, are in direct conflict with the PETA agenda of outlawing *ALL* fishing. Hence, your statement about his credibility is your own misguided fallacy.

I figure that’s mostly Powseland’s doing. I’ve been around this board for a while and he never came out and said he supported anything PeTA advocates that I remember. Jim probably sees a PeTA member behind every rock. Like you, I found his general slant to be contrary to their agenda. Go figure. Things are a little dull with Tim absent. </c

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I stand uncorrected, no mention of PETA. Tim admits to a love for animals….I have no problem with that. Do you have a problem with it? This all started with a c&r vs. c&k bs debate. Tim kills for his table….he’s not the first nor will he be the last. If you choose to release, good for you. If Tim kills, good for him as long as it is done legally. He claims to fish legally. I choose to do both this year. Last year I caught and released well over 1,000 trout and intentionally killed 0. I’m sure some later died from their "experience" with my fly. If you subscribe to the 15% mortality figure that is bandied about, than over 150 fish died for the sake of my selfish pleasure. This year I plan on enjoying some on my table and to slow down on the quantity c&r game. I know this decision will actually let more trout live….go figure…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did I miss something? I don’t recall him admitting to be a PETA supporter/member. Yes you missed it. I don’t have the time to dig it out of Deja News. Why don’t you? I would appreciate it greatly. To help you out, he admitted to it just before he left r.o.f.f. BTW, Moe Skeeter is alive and well in other newsgroups. Go to In fact, his fishing activities, be they what they may, are in direct conflict with the PETA agenda of outlawing *ALL* fishing. I suspect he once fished but gave it up years ago. He nows uses his past experience to dupe real anglers like yourself. I believe I found the article you are referring to, I’ll paste it below… For the record, it doesn’t say he is a PETA supporter, but that he is an animal rights supporter. I personally don’t believe that he has ulterior motives, I think he is doing what he believes to be best. It’s just that he thinks that what he believes is the only correct belief and what anyone else believes is completely wrong and is disgracing a fish and fly-fishing. Is it just me, or does anyone else wonder if Tim, Muskie, and Vandenman are the same person? :-) I don’t know if I’d be more frightened to find out they were the same person or three different people. :-O Later, – Ken — Not speaking for Intel rec.outdoors.fishing .fly) Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly No…if it wasn’t for the mellowness brought on by an occasional good homebrew, I’d be much worse. Beleive me. On second thought, I agree with you. You do seem to have a lot of hate, anger and fear, which is quite common in AR-supporters. That’s because you piss us both off…<g… That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter. What wildlife love among us is not ? There are some things that are wrong…like the guy that buried those puppies alive…we need AR laws so that we can prosecute bastards like that. I have simply drawn the line and "Pure C&R fishing" happens to live on that side of the line which includes other ‘pure sport’ hunting and fishing such as Trophy Big Game Hunting and Prarie Dog shoots. We should not kill, maim, harass or cause undue stress to wild animals…unless we plan to eat them or otherwise use them…which is clearly covered as acceptible. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

– The Blue Ridge Book Gallery | We are located 8 miles south of Boone on Rt. 1 Box 975-23 | Hiway 105 in Foscoe in the heart of the Banner Elk, NC 28604 | beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains. Please (704) 963-5001 | visit us when you’re in the area. | Thanks….Marie & Walter Winter http://www.mercury.net/~wgwinter/ also on Interloc…

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Just a random thought here, but does it take T-BONE’S endless rantings and ravings to prompt some of you regulars (you know who you are) to post?? All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure. Is his nonsense all it takes to ruffle your feathers? -Mark

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Michael K Skorey wrote Just a random thought here, but does it take T-BONE’S endless rantings and ravings to prompt some of you regulars (you know who you are) to post?? All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure. Is his nonsense all it takes to ruffle your feathers?

You can find out whether your hypothesis is true by simply stating of your on nonsense. Just make sure you fire it up with equal parts of controversy, arrogance and curmudgeonry . — -dnc-

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: : All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure. Is : his nonsense all it takes to ruffle your feathers? Well, I’m not one of the ruffled one’s since I’m usually on his side, but I don’t really fish that often since moving from Colorado to the southern desert of New Mexico, so I can’t report on anything I did or learned. I’m spending more of my "leisure" computer time on horse and donkey discussions, as that’s where my interest lies for now. But this spring I *will* be heading into the Gila to catch up on catching trout. If all goes well my burro will be packing my gear ;-) JonCook.

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<snip : learned. I’m spending more of my "leisure" computer time on horse and : donkey discussions, as that’s where my interest lies for now. But this I’m guessing you’d want to go with a 9 or 10 weight for a horse or donkey, wouldn’t you? Do they feed on the surface? — http://members.tripod.com/~trunculo/index

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Just a random thought here, but does it take T-BONE’S endless rantings and ravings to prompt some of you regulars (you know who you are) to post?? All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure. Is his nonsense all it takes to ruffle your feathers? -Mark

I didn’t find the absence of the regulars as intriguing as the sudden emergence of a lot of new (or occasional) posters. He certainly stokes the fires of debate in ROFF, but the heat seems also to keep many away. An interesting trade-off, eh? Peter

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says… All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure. Hmmm, I’m not sure T-Bone’s departure is temporary. After admitting that he is a PETA supporter, he pretty much blew his cover. And credibility.

Did I miss something? I don’t recall him admitting to be a PETA supporter/member. In fact, his fishing activities, be they what they may, are in direct conflict with the PETA agenda of outlawing *ALL* fishing. Hence, your statement about his credibility is your own misguided fallacy.

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: : I’m guessing you’d want to go with a 9 or 10 weight for a horse or : donkey, wouldn’t you? Heck even an 8 is sufficient, but you have to go back to fiberglass, because the fast-action graphite stings too much when you whack ‘em. JonCook.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did I miss something? I don’t recall him admitting to be a PETA supporter/member. Yes you missed it. I don’t have the time to dig it out of Deja News. Why don’t you? I would appreciate it greatly. To help you out, he admitted to it just before he left r.o.f.f. BTW, Moe Skeeter is alive and well in other newsgroups. Go to In fact, his fishing activities, be they what they may, are in direct conflict with the PETA agenda of outlawing *ALL* fishing. I suspect he once fished but gave it up years ago. He nows uses his past experience to dupe real anglers like yourself.

I believe I found the article you are referring to, I’ll paste it below… For the record, it doesn’t say he is a PETA supporter, but that he is an animal rights supporter. I personally don’t believe that he has ulterior motives, I think he is doing what he believes to be best. It’s just that he thinks that what he believes is the only correct belief and what anyone else believes is completely wrong and is disgracing a fish and fly-fishing. Is it just me, or does anyone else wonder if Tim, Muskie, and Vandenman are the same person? :-) I don’t know if I’d be more frightened to find out they were the same person or three different people. :-O Later, - Ken — Not speaking for Intel rec.outdoors.fishing .fly) Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly No…if it wasn’t for the mellowness brought on by an occasional good homebrew, I’d be much worse. Beleive me. On second thought, I agree with you. You do seem to have a lot of hate, anger and fear, which is quite common in AR-supporters.

That’s because you piss us both off…<g… That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter. What wildlife love among us is not ? There are some things that are wrong…like the guy that buried those puppies alive…we need AR laws so that we can prosecute bastards like that. I have simply drawn the line and "Pure C&R fishing" happens to live on that side of the line which includes other ‘pure sport’ hunting and fishing such as Trophy Big Game Hunting and Prarie Dog shoots. We should not kill, maim, harass or cause undue stress to wild animals…unless we plan to eat them or otherwise use them…which is clearly covered as acceptible. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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where I live trout season never closes - sort of an endless summer (just lots and lots of rain in certain months!) Peter

Moe asked me to ask you if there are any trout left?

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says… I stand uncorrected, no mention of PETA. Quote: "That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter. TimW" What part of "Animal Rights supporter" don’t you understand?

The part where he states he is a card carrying member for PEOPLE FOR THE ETHICAL TREATMENT OF ANIMALS, or to clarify it further, PETA. You said he was a PETA member/supporter….you intentionally misled the group, hence THE BIG LIE….save your stories for the river where it is acceptable to stretch a tale.

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Hey Ralphie, I thought you had gone on sabbatical too.

no – I’ve just been very busy … 25 days, 2 hours and 41 minutes before trout season opens, I’m not going to make.

where I live trout season never closes - sort of an endless summer (just lots and lots of rain in certain months!) Peter

Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – yeah .. . he needed a break. But don’t ya’ think he might be lurking right now enjoying, all the ‘where’s Tim – I miss all the fascinatin’ dust ups he precipitated ‘ thinkin’ … hey they really do love me!" and preparing for a dramatic return! Then he’ll begin repeating himself all over again. Who said the LP is dead? Oh that’s just Tim – thought it was time to dust off my old 45’s. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Hey Ralphie, I thought you had gone on sabbatical too. 25 days, 2 hours and 41 minutes before trout season opens, I’m not going to make. Peter

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Face it guys, You all miss Tim with his rantings and and provocations. He has helped to keep people reading the group in times when nothing else in the group was worth reading. After I posted something, I enjoyed sitting back and waiting for the novel way Tim would string curses together, to describe it and me. But it was time for him to take a rest as he was begining to repeat himself. Peter

yeah .. . he needed a break. But don’t ya’ think he might be lurking right now enjoying, all the ‘where’s Tim – I miss all the fascinatin’ dust ups he precipitated ‘ thinkin’ … hey they really do love me!" and preparing for a dramatic return! Then he’ll begin repeating himself all over again. Who said the LP is dead? Oh that’s just Tim – thought it was time to dust off my old 45’s. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well, I’ve avoided responding to Jim P. for years now, but I see it’s about time… : So he says. Actually, I think it is just a lie. Timbo probably was an : angler in the past but he is no longer. And that just goes to show you that you live in your own little world. I’ve personally seen him bonk fish in the last year. I’ve said it before — with all the analogies Tim has made of fishing with hunting (i.e., providing food through sport, not playing trout golf), you oughtta be his staunchest supporter…if you really are a hunter…then again, maybe you are the one with the hidden PETA agenda… JonCook.

Jon this really cracked me up! Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Face it guys, You all miss Tim with his rantings and and provocations. He has helped to keep people reading the group in times when nothing else in the group was worth reading. Discussions about which areas are hot and not, where to fish and how well we just did in this stream at this hole on this day with this fly just don’t happen in this group. I can’t blame anyone for that, I don’t want the whole world to know the prime spots I fish either. But in times when there is very little trout fly fishing going on (such as last winter), Timbo helped to spark an ember or two. I thought the best was the thread about the ass backwards lawyer who wanted to abolish Tim from the group. (kind of looks like it worked in retrospect). "end commercial fishing on all salmonids" Cheers

After I posted something, I enjoyed sitting back and waiting for the novel way Tim would string curses together, to describe it and me. But it was time for him to take a rest as he was begining to repeat himself. Peter

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I didn’t find the absence of the regulars as intriguing as the sudden emergence of a lot of new (or occasional) posters. He certainly stokes the fires of debate in ROFF, but the heat seems also to keep many away. An interesting trade-off, eh? Peter

Face it guys, You all miss Tim with his rantings and and provocations. He has helped to keep people reading the group in times when nothing else in the group was worth reading. Discussions about which areas are hot and not, where to fish and how well we just did in this stream at this hole on this day with this fly just don’t happen in this group. I can’t blame anyone for that, I don’t want the whole world to know the prime spots I fish either. But in times when there is very little trout fly fishing going on (such as last winter), Timbo helped to spark an ember or two. I thought the best was the thread about the ass backwards lawyer who wanted to abolish Tim from the group. (kind of looks like it worked in retrospect). "end commercial fishing on all salmonids" Cheers

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Well, I’ve avoided responding to Jim P. for years now, but I see it’s about time… : I stand uncorrected, no mention of PETA. : : Quote: "That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter. TimW" Well, again, no mention of PETA… : What part of "Animal Rights supporter" don’t you understand? So now you change the question from your original one… : Neither do I. It is called animal welfare. Animal *rights* is something : else entirely. If you’ve actually read the threads that have transpired, you’d know that Tim’s definition of "animal rights" is nowhere near what your definition is…so quit applying your narrow AR==PETA definition. It doesn’t fit. You all have twisted Tim’s words through the years, forcing him to make his own phrases, like "pure catch and release" — and then you assail him for it. Well, here’s the perfect example. Everyone except Jim knows that Tim did not mean the PETA agenda when he said "animal rights". : Tim kills for his table….he’s not the first nor will he be the last. : : So he says. Actually, I think it is just a lie. Timbo probably was an : angler in the past but he is no longer. And that just goes to show you that you live in your own little world. I’ve personally seen him bonk fish in the last year. You have no clue about what you write. I’ve said it before — with all the analogies Tim has made of fishing with hunting (i.e., providing food through sport, not playing trout golf), you oughtta be his staunchest supporter…if you really are a hunter…then again, maybe you are the one with the hidden PETA agenda… JonCook.

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Quote: "That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter. TimW" What part of "Animal Rights supporter" don’t you understand? Tim admits to a love for animals….I have no problem with that. Neither do I. It is called animal welfare. Animal *rights* is something else entirely. Do you have a problem with it? I have a problem with AR, not AW.

I USED to think there wasn’t any difference between Animal Rights and animal welfare. However, I’ve learned that when rights are given to animals, instead of animal welfare which protects them with laws requiring humane treatment, a whole nasty can of worms is opened up. It seems like a subtle difference but think of the consequences of assigning rights to animals. A few to start: no eating of animal flesh, no pets or domesticated animals, no leather, no milk, ice cream or cheese, no animal research, etc. Willi

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I didn’t find the absence of the regulars as intriguing as the sudden emergence of a lot of new (or occasional) posters. He certainly stokes the fires of debate in ROFF, but the heat seems also to keep many away. An interesting trade-off, eh?

Peter: Good observation, at least because it agrees with mine! That is, I have also noticed the emergence of some new posters since the C&R/C&K threads have died away. In any event, you have to give Timbo credit for this – even his absence can provoke controversy, as well as the longest thread here in weeks. Mark Faulkner

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I didn’t find the absence of the regulars as intriguing as the sudden emergence of a lot of new (or occasional) posters. He certainly stokes the fires of debate in ROFF, but the heat seems also to keep many away. An interesting trade-off, eh?

That kind of "debate" does keep people away. I checked out this newsgroup about three years ago and quickly decided it wasn’t what I wanted to read every day. I think it’s a lot friendlier now, not that Tim was ever unfriendly to me… on the contrary, actually; he e-mailed me answers to some of my questions and was quite encouraging. Ironically, it’s messages like this one I’m typing that I don’t want to see, so I’m done typing now! I want to read about Fly Fishing! Leave the debating to the after-fishing pub visits. Bob Scott

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Dave Tatosian wrote "FiddleAway" wrote You can find out whether your hypothesis is true by simply stating of your o[w]n nonsense. Just make sure you fire it up with equal parts of controversy, arrogance and curmudgeonry .

Sorry ta ruffle your feathers, ol’ fart! … 8-) — -dnc-

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From the Deep South New Zealand

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Michael K Skorey wrote Just a random thought here, but does it take T-BONE’S endless rantings and ravings to prompt some of you regulars (you know who you are) to post?? All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure. Is his nonsense all it takes to ruffle your feathers? You can find out whether your hypothesis is true by simply stating of your o[w]n nonsense. Just make sure you fire it up with equal parts of controversy, arrogance and curmudgeonry .

HEY! Leave us curmudgeons out of this. Walker couldn’t qualify as a curmudgeon on a bet! /dave (Charter Member of CU – "Curmudgeons Unlimited")

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Question:

snip I dont have too. The streams I like to fish are: hot creek, the lower owens, big chico creek, and the east walker. Out of these %75 are zero limits. And the EW is kind of a pain to drive to from mammoth.

Please, please don’t tell me you’re basing this whole thing on four streams, I was giving you more credit than that. By the way, on the Lower Owens you can keep two under 12" above the footbridge. A 2 fish, barbless fly restricted stream WILL stay in good shape. In fact, arguably it can actually improve some streams. And if it doesnt, any bad effect would be minimal.

Since you call yourself a beginner, I applaud your efforts in becoming an expert on fisheries mgmt before taking up the sport. Having fished for only 30 of my 37 years and freely admit that I could never make a statement like yours with such authority, I yield to your brilliance and slink away from this thread. No doubt, in next year’s regs I will be reading "Changes recommended by Shyguy." Have fun and good luck in school… Ross

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, OK, a two fish limit then. It still won’t completely deplete a fishery withing one year. So, I’m afraid it is still Bull shit. what? WHAT? Has anybody read what I wrote? People keep flaming me for a true statement! I never said I was for 0 fish limits, against limits, for or against depleting a fishery. The guy that wrote the original statement said that there would be NO fish left in an area that had a one or two fish limit! THAT IS STILL BULL SHIT. I am FOR< regulation! I LIKE limits! I like to catch fish, and I like to release them. My statement is true, true, true.

Actually, your statement that a two fish limit can’t deplete a fishery in a year is the only BS flying around. Depends on catch rate, angling pressure, stock recruitment and population. People ARE reading what you write, perhaps, the problem is that you just don’t write very well or understand the dynamics involved in fisheries management. Your statement is a gross generalization and is neither true nor untrue until applied in the context of a specific situation. Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state." Tom McGuane t

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat. MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental. Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller. Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help. In a years time there would be no fish to eat, much less catch.Unless of coarse you were the only one fishing.(catching .g<) Harry Bull shit. #1, it’s "course," not "coarse," and #2 a one fish limit will not hurt anything but the most delicate environment, say extremely small, extremely overpressured ones. Most people, even those out for meat, just won’t bother keeping one fish. I personally release everything, but there is nothing wrong with someone keeping one or two fish a year. I’m so sorry my spellcheck and I didn’t catch such a huge fuck-up .I for the life of me, don’t see any reference to "one or two fish a year." As for Bull-shit pal, ask your self is the fishing better now than it was 20 years ago or do you find planters just too challenging? Harry

Well, OK, a two fish limit then. It still won’t completely deplete a fishery withing one year. So, I’m afraid it is still Bull shit.

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HMI’m so sorry my spellcheck and I didn’t catch such a huge fuck-up .I HMfor the life of me, don’t see any reference to "one or two fish a HMyear." As for Bull-shit pal, ask your self is the fishing better now HMthan it was 20 years ago or do you find planters just too challenging? Very good Harry! Tite Lines!, or is that Tight Lines. ___ * UniQWK v4.2 * The Windows Mail Reader

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Well, OK, a two fish limit then. It still won’t completely deplete a fishery withing one year. So, I’m afraid it is still Bull shit.

A rather bold statement when removed from the context of the biological analysis of the fishery, including recruitment, fishing pressure catch rates etc. In most cases complete or near complete depletion of a fishery is NOT an acceptable management objective. Maybe there is a reason Tennessee isn’t known as the trout capitol of the western world…. Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state." Tom McGuane

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Hey, I am interested. I fly fish and live in Fairfield, CA. What radio station can I get your program on. Dean 2500 Gulf Drive Fairfield, CA 94533

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Balance with what? "A Natural Balance" would probably be achieved with NO fishing (not even C&R) to eliminate non-natural mortality. Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state." Tom McGuane Take it somewhere else, Mike in PDX. Humans are a part of nature too.

MIKE at PDX and JOSH. I have some questions. It may not seem that the following relates to fly fishing but it does. This is not a= n attack. I am fighting with many of these problems myself. Yes, Humans are a part of nature but how do you catagorize all of the synthetics that we’ve introduced into our world? Because they= now exist, are they natrual too? Obviously, because they exist we can’t ignore them. Although you don’t have to accept it, consid= er that the difference between "natural" and "synthetic" is meaningless. Do you understand where I’m going with this? The fact is = that we, like no other species and no human from the past, have the ability to radically change and even redefine our world. When i= t is too cold we turn on the furnace and when it is too hot we turn on the air conditioner. Is this magic or a gift of God? Neithe= r, it is our ability to use the resources of our environment. Do these resources come to us at no cost? No again. Our actions in = living make a direct impact on the place where we live. Do we have the moral right to ignore OUR impact on OUR world, a world that i= ncludes other inhabitants? At one time a "natural" system included people living WITHIN the natural cycle. Resources gleaned from = their surroundings would eventually recycle back into it. Today, most humans are trying to step outside of this natural cycle – but= they don’t understand that this is not possible. Many of these problems are related to the human population explosion. There are more people competing for fewer resources than ther= e were in the past. In a populatins attempting to live outside of the "natural" cycle this means that there is more pollution and m= ore damage to the environment. Where once I could stand on the bank of a stream and fish in the glory of nature, now I follow the c= rowd down a well worn path to an over-fished stream. I do not deny anyone the human right to enjoy and re-live the traditions of fi= shing but I do relish a time when life was simple, nature was wide, and when I didn’t worry about how my impact would deny others. = Bottom line, I don’t have the luxury of ignoring the footprint I leave on the stream bank, do you? Andy (Too deep in thought for a Friday)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help. Go eat planters or go eat brookies. IF I wanted to regularly keep fish planters would be what I kept, even tho they suck to catch and dont taste as good. In the Sierra district you can keep 10 brookies under 8" in addition to your regular limit. There are plenty more "meat" streams in CA than there are 0 kill anyway. Fish them if you don’t like the regs. Why do you fish Hot Creek if you don’t like 0 kill? No where have I said I dont like 0 limits. Reread my messages again PLEASE!! I DO think that 0 limit is too widely used. I think hot creek would probably be good to keep at 0 limits, but the owens which is right next to it should probably be changed to 2 fish, 14 or 16 inches and larger (with barbless hooks only) MOST of the time I do return the fish I catch, but occasionally it is nice to take home and eat a nice 17 incher you catch. It is also nice to be able to take home trophy fish you catch on trophy streams. Again I am not saying to always keep trophy fish, probably just the opposite, to return them %90 of the time. Of course I am a beginner so I do not catch trophy fish, but once on the owens I did have a 20 inch’ish 4 poundish’ish trout on (tired him out, then was slowly dragging him in but he straightened out the hook and got away ). Anyways the point is it would of been nice to be able to keep this fish IF I had landed him.

. Anyways the point is it would of been nice to be able to keep this fish IF I had landed him.<<<<<<< I think the point is- WHY, why would you want to kill the mature stock? Surly a photo on the wall is better than a stuffed fish. Old trout like that don’t taste good as well. May I also point out that if we did not take fish we would not need to plant them. I think that in time you will find that fishing and catching are light years apart. This is not meant as a flame only as an opinion from someone who long ago had a similar view as you hold today.There is a special feeling to releasing your first 7lb Brown and it is a lot different than the feel of the spine breaking. Some times I get "Preachy" sorry Harry

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I think that limits are necessary and should depend on the fishing pressures on the stream. California actually does a good job administering the limits. Of course they have a little help from organizations like California Trout whom I applaud for their efforts. What California does a poor job on is protecting the fishing environment. Ernie Harrison

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Stuff Deleted… Of course I am a beginner so I do not catch trophy fish, but once on the owens I did have a 20 inch’ish 4 poundish’ish trout on (tired him out, then was slowly dragging him in but he straightened out the hook and got away ). Anyways the point is it would of been nice to be able to keep this fish IF I had landed him.

Unless you were on the special regs section of the Lower Owens (just outside of Bishop, about 25 miles south of Hot Creek) You could have kept that fish. The special regs for the Upper Owens (right next to Hot Creek as you mentioned) only apply in May and in October, the rest of the time there are regular rules. Besides, the special regs for the Upper Owens are you can only keep two fish bigger than 18 inches. Darryl Hayashida

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Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat. MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental. Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller. Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help.

There are ususally reasons for 0 limit waters. If you want to take a fish or two, fish waters that permit it. High country lakes often have large numbers of brookies which are delicious, especially when cooked and eaten at lakeside. Many streams also permit one or two fish limits. If they are wild trout streams, some of us choose not to take fish. Let me assur you, in rivers like Hat Creek and Fall River, no culling is required to maintain a healthy population of large fish. BTW, how far do you live from the fishing. If you keep these fish more than a day, they don’t taste that good anyway. Be sure your ego isn’t getting in your way. George Berns Trout Live in Beautiful Places

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat. MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental. Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller. Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help. In a years time there would be no fish to eat, much less catch.Unless of coarse you were the only one fishing.(catching .g<) Harry Bull shit. #1, it’s "course," not "coarse," and #2 a one fish limit will not hurt anything but the most delicate environment, say extremely small, extremely overpressured ones. Most people, even those out for meat, just won’t bother keeping one fish. I personally release everything, but there is nothing wrong with someone keeping one or two fish a year.

I’m so sorry my spellcheck and I didn’t catch such a huge fuck-up .I for the life of me, don’t see any reference to "one or two fish a year." As for Bull-shit pal, ask your self is the fishing better now than it was 20 years ago or do you find planters just too challenging? Harry

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You need to use a little common sense with this stuff. If you can drive up to a river or lake in California, don’t kill any fish there, or very soon you won’t be able to drive up and catch fish there anymore. YOU CAN"T CATCH A DEAD FISH! There are far more people fishing in CA than there are fish to go around. If everyone just takes one (let alone 2) the fishing will be ruined inside of a year. If you want to keep fish, there You know that a stream wouldnt be killed in a year if there was a 2 fish limit. There are many non planted streams that are no where near dieing with a 5 fish limit. Having 2 fish restricted areas is not nearly as detrimental as your propoganda states. Maybe others can give antecdotes to popular native fly streams that were restricted from the regular limit to 2 fish with a higher minimum size limit. For the record I do think zero limits have there place. For instance maybe 75 percent of the current zero limit places. I do think some should be 2 fish limited tho.

I have to agree with Shyguy. Some places with a lot of pressure need a zero fish limit. But some don’t. Fisheries managers do the best they can trying to meet everyone’s needs. If anyone ever disagrees with the limits on their waters, contact your local fisheries office. They will listen.

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Hi Attached is a noHi: Listen to our radio show,The Fishin’ Zone, that broadcasts every Saturday morning from 6-7 am. Eastern time on 56 stations to over 500 cities in the US. We have a "troll" free number 1-800-298-8255. Call us and let’s talk some fish; or E-mail me your address and I will return mail 2 free bumper stickers that say I FISH & I VOTE for your car-boat-rod case or tackle box. We will inform you of the nearest radio station to you. Tight Lines, The Fishin’ Zone- Steve Sloante I think you will be interested in re: fishery matters.Let me know what you think! The Fishin’ Zone- Steve Sloan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat. MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental. Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller. In a years time there would be no fish to eat, much less catch.Unless of coarse you were the only one fishing.(catching .g<) This is not a flame but I believe you are just giving out the propoganda. Can you give any examples of streams that have had a 2 fish limit (and maybe say at least 12 or 16 inch minimum lentgh). And giving a example of a stream that has a 5 or more fish limit DOES NOT COUNT!!

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Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help. Go eat planters or go eat brookies.

IF I wanted to regularly keep fish planters would be what I kept, even tho they suck to catch and dont taste as good. In the Sierra district you can keep 10 brookies under 8" in addition to your regular limit. There are plenty more "meat" streams in CA than there are 0 kill anyway. Fish them if you don’t like the regs. Why do you fish Hot Creek if you don’t like 0 kill?

No where have I said I dont like 0 limits. Reread my messages again PLEASE!! I DO think that 0 limit is too widely used. I think hot creek would probably be good to keep at 0 limits, but the owens which is right next to it should probably be changed to 2 fish, 14 or 16 inches and larger (with barbless hooks only) MOST of the time I do return the fish I catch, but occasionally it is nice to take home and eat a nice 17 incher you catch. It is also nice to be able to take home trophy fish you catch on trophy streams. Again I am not saying to always keep trophy fish, probably just the opposite, to return them %90 of the time. Of course I am a beginner so I do not catch trophy fish, but once on the owens I did have a 20 inch’ish 4 poundish’ish trout on (tired him out, then was slowly dragging him in but he straightened out the hook and got away ). Anyways the point is it would of been nice to be able to keep this fish IF I had landed him.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat. MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental. Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller. Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help. In a years time there would be no fish to eat, much less catch.Unless of coarse you were the only one fishing.(catching .g<) Harry

Bull shit. #1, it’s "course," not "coarse," and #2 a one fish limit will not hurt anything but the most delicate environment, say extremely small, extremely overpressured ones. Most people, even those out for meat, just won’t bother keeping one fish. I personally release everything, but there is nothing wrong with someone keeping one or two fish a year.

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You need to use a little common sense with this stuff. If you can drive up to a river or lake in California, don’t kill any fish there, or very soon you won’t be able to drive up and catch fish there anymore. YOU CAN"T CATCH A DEAD FISH! There are far more people fishing in CA than there are fish to go around. If everyone just takes one (let alone 2) the fishing will be ruined inside of a year. If you want to keep fish, there

You know that a stream wouldnt be killed in a year if there was a 2 fish limit. There are many non planted streams that are no where near dieing with a 5 fish limit. Having 2 fish restricted areas is not nearly as detrimental as your propoganda states. Maybe others can give antecdotes to popular native fly streams that were restricted from the regular limit to 2 fish with a higher minimum size limit. For the record I do think zero limits have there place. For instance maybe 75 percent of the current zero limit places. I do think some should be 2 fish limited tho.

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Oh, also I would like some streams to have a 2 fish limit so people can keep trophy trout. I think the east walker has the kind of restrictions I am advocating, 2 fish limit minimum size 14 or 16 inches. You say that 2 fish limits would kill a stream in a year. The heavily fished east walker shows you are not being entirely truthfull!!

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This is not the case on Hot Creek. Ever take a stream sample there? It is ablsolutely packed with scuds, caddis, mayflies, and midges. The fish are not stunted, but rather very healthy, wild, colorful, energetic, etc.

I would disagree with this assessment. I’ve fished Hot Creek for about 20 years or so and the fishery has declined. There are more fish but the average size has decreased. This is documented from shocking surveys. There is an abundant insect population which does support the fish to the extent that they are not stunted but the fish do not have the necessary nutrient and space requirements to grow large. The fish density is approx. 4,000 per mile in a stream approx. 30′ wide and 2′ deep! IMHO Hot Creek is being managed as "U catch ‘em" (and release ‘em) to appease the hoards. I for one would support a temporary slot limit to bring the stream back into a balance that would allow fewer but larger fish MT — It’s not the bible that’s filled with contradictions, It’s our brains that are filled with them. J. Vernon McGee

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Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat. MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental. Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller. In a years time there would be no fish to eat, much less catch.Unless of coarse you were the only one fishing.(catching .g<)

This is not a flame but I believe you are just giving out the propoganda. Can you give any examples of streams that have had a 2 fish limit (and maybe say at least 12 or 16 inch minimum lentgh). And giving a example of a stream that has a 5 or more fish limit DOES NOT COUNT!!

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In article Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat.

Cheaper and more efficient to buy at your local supermarket! MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental. Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller.

Now, would these be the fish and game people who run the hatchery at the springs upstream, the seasonal creel census folks, or was it a fisheries biologist?? Zero limit can be detrimental when the carrying capacity of the water is exceeded. A good example of this might be any of a number of brook trout lakes in the Sierra. Unlike other trout, brookies (which are actually char not trout) don’t need a stream in which to spawn. Wave action in the shallows of the lake is enough to aireate their eggs and hatch the fry. So, there is no natural limitation on their spawning. Also the brookies in the Sierra mature in only 1 year and start spawning. This can create an overpopulation. You know you’ve come to one of these lakes when all the fish are 6"-8" long with big heads and skinny bodies. The population has surpassed the carrying capacity of the lake. Take some out and eat them. You are actually helping out in this situation. This is not the case on Hot Creek. Ever take a stream sample there? It is ablsolutely packed with scuds, caddis, mayflies, and midges. The fish are not stunted, but rather very healthy, wild, colorful, energetic, etc. If you are having trouble finding the big fish, they often can be found rooting scuds out of the weeds. Easy to spot because of the tail that is causing a "riseform". People often cast to these riseforms by mistake. tough to catch the fish though as their heads are buried in the weeds. You can also spot and catch (if you get the right drift) big fish around the upper corner of the canyon (now everyone can jam into that section so I can have the rest of the creek to myself). There are always some "big guys" hanging out in the area out from the tree. They are also scattered throughout the rest of the stream, but your fish spotting skills have to be good to see them. Good place to practice spotting fish. Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help.

You need to use a little common sense with this stuff. If you can drive up to a river or lake in California, don’t kill any fish there, or very soon you won’t be able to drive up and catch fish there anymore. YOU CAN"T CATCH A DEAD FISH! There are far more people fishing in CA than there are fish to go around. If everyone just takes one (let alone 2) the fishing will be ruined inside of a year. If you want to keep fish, there are lots of planted trout throughout the Mammoth Lakes/June lakes area, go for it. Or, park your car, put on your backpack, and trek on into the Sierra to find some of those brookies. Only take fish from a place that gets very little pressure, or find those stunted brookies. But don’t take them out of Hot Creek. By the way, those brookies fit just great into a pan and there’s nothing quite like them for an early morning breakfast or dinner in the high country. Dan

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Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat.< Shyguy

While I’ll always appreciate some small percentage of waters reserved for C&R only, I don’t have a problem with allowing the taking of fish in other waters for those that are into that. Peaceful coexistance works better than the alternatives… Slot limits can go a long way towards reasonable management of the resource. Done correctly, the healthiest fish are left to breed (where that’s possible – not all waters support breeding and are basically put’n'takes anyway), old fish can be "retired with honors", and the number of small fish can be kept below the point where there isn’t enough forage to support them. For instance, this hypothetical/arbitrary situation: in a good size brook trout fishery where breeding *is* a realistic expectation, a slot of say 8 to 13 inches could be created. This could allow 3 or 4 small fish *below the slot* and one fish *above the slot* to be taken per rod/day. All fish in the slot would have to be released unharmed. The slot would cover the best breeders, the population of little fellers would be kept in check, and the occasional big critter could provide the ego stroke/hero shot for those that are so inclined. I know this is being done in at least a few places, but I think if allowed to spread everyone would be better off. But I’d still like to keep some small percentage of fisheries for C&R – preferably requiring single, barbless hooks… /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp. Alpha Server Engineering < < "Read this and nobody gets hurt ;^)" < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it

I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat.< Shyguy I say yes and no….. It depends on the stream, the nature of the fishery, the size fish you want to kill and a zillion other things. I can only use my home state, PA, as an example…. It probably would do no harm to a small, infertile brook trout fishery to have a reasonable level of harvest in some cases, In others, it would. Fishery mgmt. is not a very exact science(with apologies to all you professionals out there…), and nobody really knows the majority of the answers, let alone all of them. For example, here we have an eight fish general waters creel limit, and there are many PA streams that are managed under these regs and produce a higher biomass of wild trout than some of our specially regulated waters, where the daily creel is two (was three…) fish. I have no idea why other than habitat, but it’s so… Although it has been a while since I looked at the files on this matter, there was a time in PA, less than 10 years ago, when almost all the waters under total catch and release had trout that maxed out at a given size (say 19.5") and they never got any bigger, even under the total protection of no kill. These were browns, which should have the capacity to grow at least a few inches larger, given the streams and the habitat… and I don’t think anybody knows why they did not, for sure… To that end, I sometimes wonder about the use of total no kill as a management tool (although I practice same, when possible). Since we know far less than we need to about the dynamics of trout pops in streams, and what helps and what doesn’t, I think if we err, it should be on the side of caution. Kill the couple "decent size fish" you desire, but I would hope that you would kill fish whose ancestors swam in narrow slots of concrete rather than wild fish… After a stocked fish acclimates, his diet switch makes him taste just as good anyway… RL Petri

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Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat. MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental. Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller. Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help.

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Everybody is so gungho on zero limits and I dont like it I want to be able to keep 1 or 2 decent sized fish to take home and eat. MORE IMPORTANTLY, talking to fish and game people who were on hot creek, leds me to believe that zero limits can be detrimental. Not as detrimental as people taking 5 fish out, but allowing people to take a small number of fish could help out, as there can be too many fish, meaning the fish will be significantly smaller. Not only would a 1 or 2 fish limit appease those like me who sometimes like to keep some fish, but could also conceivable help.

In a years time there would be no fish to eat, much less catch.Unless of coarse you were the only one fishing.(catching .g<) Harry

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Question:

I plan on going fishing this weekend in Farmingham, Ct. Any suggestions about where to eat, sleep. fish and drink. Thanking you in advance for your help

I’ve lived in Connecticut for some 40 years, and haven’t encountered Farmingham, but then I’m always learning a new name for the 169 towns and hundreds more villages in this State.. However, I suspect you mean Farmington, and refer to the Farmington River, not the town located somewhat to the west of Hartford. The river has a trout management (catch and release) area extending about 5 miles north of the town of New Hartford which has some of the best fishing in Connecticut at this time of year because it is a cool-running tailwater. In my experience and because of that, it gets pounded at this time of year. However, it holds good fish and they are often catchable. Check with the Classic and Custom FLy Shop in New Hartford for conditions, etc. (203) 738-3597. Good luck.

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I usually stay at the Hillside Motel, eat breakfast (blueberry pancakes) at Six-Ds and dinner at Athena pizzeria near Satan’s Kingdom. Custom and Classic is a good shop for fishing supplies but don’t call — the fishing is always great. They don’t sell licenses but can direct you to the hunting/fishing shop about a mile away. Definitely buy the Farmington River Anglers Association book and call their hotline (203) 738-7327 before your next trip. The catch and release TMA is crowded weekends but I go because I never get skunked. Caught a bunch of 11-12 inch browns last trip by rollcasting #18 ants on 7x Orvis fluorocarbon out to steady risers at the boneyards but they are EXTREMELY leader and micro-drag shy. The minature salmon are everywhere and can actually be a nuisance. Doug Johnson Stratus Computer, Marlborough, MA

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Question:

You can fish the streams in the park productively all Summer long, but they do get low and the fish get squirrely. Heating is not so much a problem as low water. Try the upper Hughes, the Hazel (if it’s open this year) and the upper Conway. Learn to crawl on your belly, and hide behind the boulders. I know nothing about Naked Creek. As a sidelight, there are a bunch of decent limestones in the general area as well. Buffalo Creek is one of the better ones. Call Harry Murray in Edinsburg, VA. He has a pharmacy/ fly shop. Nobody is better versed on these streams than he. I don’t have his number. Call dir assist. and get the number for Murray’s fly shop in Edinsburg.

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We fish the lower Shenandoah year round for Rainbow and Brown trout. We take good size trout from about 12 streams with regular success. The trophy trout areas are good but the smaller spring fed streams hold fish year round and have less fishing pressure. In addition to Murrays, I would recommend the Mossy Creek Flyshop in Bridgewater to get info on Smithy Creek, Mossy as well as the Bull Pasture. I would contact the Orvis store in Roanoke to get the flies and hatch info on Lower Jackson, Back Creek, Upper Jackson, Tye, South, Irish, Pedlar and Upper Maury. Ron Bennett Flyfishing Virginia L.L.C. (804) 467-6668

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How late can one fish in the Shanendoa trout streams productively? I’m told they get to warm by "summer." I want to fish Naked Creek in mid Jun e.

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says… Interested in opinions about or experiences with Orvis’ braided leaders and the long (4 ft) tippets that loop connect to them. All I know is what I read about them in their catalog. Never heard of anyone really using this setup…the guy at the local Orvis shop thought they had been discontinued until I showed them to him in the catalog.

It’s a great leader for the small stream technical fishing that I do here in the Blue Ridge Mtns. It lays out nice with no memory and is the best leader by far I’ve ever used for bow and arrow casting into small pockets under and around mountain laurel. I’ve never used it for wide open water so I can’t comment on it for that but I suspect it would more than suffice for stillwater situations where you would desire a light presentation. I don’t believe I’d use it for nymphing. –Walt

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forgot to mention one thing…. throw away the mono bimini-twist tippet they provide. THAT IS A PIECE OF JUNK and will cause you nothing but pain, frustration and agony on the river. I build my own 2 to 6 foot tippet addition with a loop to connect to the braided leader. –Walt

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says… Interested in opinions about or experiences with Orvis’ braided leaders and the long (4 ft) tippets that loop connect to them. All I know is what I read about them in their catalog. Never heard of anyone really using this setup…the guy at the local Orvis shop thought they had been discontinued until I showed them to him in the catalog. Check out the new Airflo leaders. They’re available in floating and several

different sink rates. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s a great leader for the small stream technical fishing that I do here in the Blue Ridge Mtns. It lays out nice with no memory and is the best leader by far I’ve ever used for bow and arrow casting into small pockets under and around mountain laurel. I’ve never used it for wide open water so I can’t comment on it for that but I suspect it would more than suffice for stillwater situations where you would desire a light presentation. I don’t believe I’d use it for nymphing. –Walt

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i use them for nymphing all the time.. the braided section tends to grip a strike indicator very well and the bimmini twist in the tippet helps to turn over a wieghted

fly quite well.. the only trouble i have had with them is that they tend to streach a bit when striking a fish Steve

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…

I use braided leaders all the time, for surface flies and nymphs, mostly because they’re soooo easy. But they also work. This topic comes up every now and then, and the only real criticism that I can resonate with is that they tend to hold water and so can create a spray. This can scare spooky fish, especially in flat water, but false casts cure it.

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… I use braided leaders all the time, for surface flies and nymphs, mostly because they’re soooo easy. But they also work. This topic comes up every now and then, and the only real criticism that I can resonate with is that they tend to hold water and so can create a spray. This can scare spooky fish, especially in flat water, but false casts cure it.

Airflo also produce a tapered leader called ‘Polyleader’ – these have a monofilament core surrounded by a tapered coating which does away with the splashing problem. About 5 feet long, you just tie on a mono tippet as for the braided type and they turn over pretty well. cheers all, Dave — Fishy pix of N.Wales at: http://xavier.bangor.ac.uk/dlane/fishing/ He that is giddy thinks the world turns round.

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Dave, I have used the AirFlo leader and found it to be very useful. For a beginning fly fisher my local shop suggested I skin back a little of the tippet end of the leader to expose the core and tie a loop. I can then change tippets with a simple handshake knot very quickly. The setup certainly casts very well with my limited ability and offers great flexibility as I make up various size tippets in advance. Wayne To fish is human…to release devine.

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Dave, I have used the AirFlo leader and found it to be very useful.

Ditto, I find the Airflo Poly leader the best I’ve ever used. Wes

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Tom, I have been using an Orvis braided for about a year now, for dry’s , nymphs and streamers. I am still using the same leader, where as before I would go through a dozen leaders a season (actually saves me $). They are great, hardly ever knot up, but when they do you must be very careful because you can ruin it picking it apart. They tend to sink easier tham mono, but when fishing a dry a little floatant takes care of the problem. They turn over great and have no memory. Scott Interested in opinions about or experiences with Orvis’ braided leaders and the long (4 ft) tippets that loop connect to them. All I know is what I read about them in their catalog. Never heard of anyone really using this setup…the guy at the local Orvis shop thought they had been discontinued until I showed them to him in the catalog.

– Scott Maxwell http://www.page.az.net/scud

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: They are too expensive at $9-10. I got a 9′ 5X about 3 months ago and : it has fallen apart (fished once a week). Flies that have a tendency : to twist (hoppers) will tangle a lot faster. After a couple of trips, : it started to fray and cause the line to tangle even more. : On the other hand. There is little memory. Just rig the line off the : reel. I have an Orvis line with the loop and it makes a good fit. It : did seem to help with controlling drag. No problems casting small : drys. : I wish it would be a little more durable or a little less expensive. : I might buy another but only use it when casting small drys. : Michael L You may want to try the AirFlo braided leaders. I’ve been using them for several years and really like them. They’re more durable than the Orvis leaders and they seem to float better as well. I also really like their lack of memory. A little more spray than monofilament leaders (tho not much); but not a problem if you don’t make your first cast after pickup over the fish you are casting to (a good idea even if you’re not using braided leaders). I’ve used these leaders with really small flies on spring creeks (Silver Creek and the Henry’s Fork) and not ever had a problem with presentation or spooking fish due to a braided leader (of course I usually fish downstream in these situations). In fact the braided leader usually allows me to make a better presentation because it has so little memory. I think the AirFlo leaders cost around $7-8. They also have sinking braided leaders with different sink rates; makes it easy to create a sink tip from your floating line (or give your sinking line a little more "sink" at the tip). – Ward — — Ward Foster Hewlett-Packard, Boise Idaho

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Interested in opinions about or experiences with Orvis’ braided leaders and the long (4 ft) tippets that loop connect to them. All I know is what I read about them in their catalog. Never heard of anyone really using this setup…the guy at the local Orvis shop thought they had been discontinued until I showed them to him in the catalog.

Hi All, This all happened about 10 years ago here in California. Orvis and others brought in the tapered braided leaders and they soon died off. I hear that they are alive and well in Europe. Try it, you might like it? Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Interested in opinions about or experiences with Orvis’ braided leaders and the long (4 ft) tippets that loop connect to them. All I know is what I read about them in their catalog. Never heard of anyone really using this setup…the guy at the local Orvis shop thought they had been discontinued until I showed them to him in the catalog. Hi All, This all happened about 10 years ago here in California. Orvis and others brought in the tapered braided leaders and they soon died off. I hear that they are alive and well in Europe. Try it, you might like it? Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Hi! I use them for nymphing on big rivers, With small dries and small creeks I use mono. I think they are best for big waters and bigger fish. In other words the opposite opinion from earlier writers on this subject. Hans

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Interested in opinions about or experiences with Orvis’ braided leaders and the long (4 ft) tippets that loop connect to them. All I know is what I read about them in their catalog. Never heard of anyone really using this setup…the guy at the local Orvis shop thought they had been discontinued until I showed them to him in the catalog.

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Tom, When they first came out Orvis was giving away samples so I took one and stuck it in my tackle box where it remains still in its wrapper. I make my own leaders. If you want it give me your mailing address and I will send it to you. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh Interested in opinions about or experiences with Orvis’ braided leaders and the long (4 ft) tippets that loop connect to them.

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They are too expensive at $9-10. I got a 9′ 5X about 3 months ago and it has fallen apart (fished once a week). Flies that have a tendency to twist (hoppers) will tangle a lot faster. After a couple of trips, it started to fray and cause the line to tangle even more. On the other hand. There is little memory. Just rig the line off the reel. I have an Orvis line with the loop and it makes a good fit. It did seem to help with controlling drag. No problems casting small drys. I wish it would be a little more durable or a little less expensive. I might buy another but only use it when casting small drys. Michael L – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Interested in opinions about or experiences with Orvis’ braided leaders and the long (4 ft) tippets that loop connect to them. All I know is what I read about them in their catalog. Never heard of anyone really using this setup…the guy at the local Orvis shop thought they had been discontinued until I showed them to him in the catalog.

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Interested in opinions about or experiences with Orvis’ braided leaders and the long (4 ft) tippets that loop connect to them.

– I purchased one 8-ft braided section (w/4-ft 5X tippet) this spring based on the recommendation of a friend who also gave me some other advice… 1. Trash the 4-foot bimini twist tippet with the package 2. Loop a 3-foot section of 3X to the braided leader 3. Tie on a 4-foot section of 5X-7X depending on conditions 4. Dress the braided leader with a very light wax/silicone coating to prevent water uptake and enhance floatability Makes a good 15-ft small tippet leader that turns over like a 9-foot knotless tapered leader. I have had good success with this set-up fishing both small drys and nymphs on the tailwater streams here in NE TN this season. Still fishing the original braided section (over 15-trips), but it probably won’t make it to next season. My understanding is that Orvis has coated the braided sections (see #4 above) on some of the later versions of this leader set-up due to problems with water uptake and misting. | / |/ ( /| — / | C. Michael Bullard The Yellar Hammer

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Jim. Buy one roll of 5x braided and then in a warm well lighted room try to thread a freshly cut section of braided tippet through the eye of a # 20 hook. This may help you decided if you want to switch over

I’m actually interested in a braided butt section, since that is the part that is really stiff. I plan to stick with mono tippets, since they’re flexible enough. I think a braided butt would be better for eliminating drag. — Jim Benenson Los Alamos, New Mexico, USA "The commonplace is only the self-constructed wall that separates us from the marvelous" Tom Brown, Jr.

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I own a set of Orvis braided leaders. While they do produce tight loops, they soak up water. This make them heavy to pick up on the backcast and you run the risk of spooking fish with the spray during false casts. Lastly, I tried to add a 4 foot section of tippet material to the 5 foot braided leader (making it a nine foot leader). THe tippet section did not straighten well. Orvis sells tippet sections that are supposedly tapered, but they are expensive. Daren Valentine

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I use the Orvis braided leaders and LOVE them. They last for about two years and I just tie on a length of tippet material on the end, then change that from time to time. I’ve used both the light ones on my 5 weight rod, and the medium weight ones on my 7 weight. I feel that the price is justified, even though I have to buy tippet material too. Plus like you say, they’re not as stiff.

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I use the Orvis braided leaders and LOVE them. They last for about two years and I just tie on a length of tippet material on the end, then change that from time to time. I’ve used both the light ones on my 5 weight rod, and the medium weight ones on my 7 weight. I feel that the price is justified, even though I have to buy tippet material too. Plus like you say, they’re not as stiff. Don’t you have problems with wind knots? I know wk’s are mainly due to poor casting technique, but I always seem to have more problems with the braided leaders. But you are correct – they are limp. Bob –

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Question:

I am an avid flyfisherman, both streams and lakes (mostly lakes). I am 17 years old and try to go fishing as much as possible. What I wanted to know is if there are any decent dry damselfly patterns out there. I have seen a few with extended deer hair bodies, polypropylene wings, and parachute hackles, but I also wanted to know if there where any other patterns for this insect. I have not yet seen any dry dragonfly patterns, so I want to know about them as well. Although I personally don’t prefer dry fly fishing on stillwaters but, it can be very succesful at times. Scott Laliberte . — ___ __ ____ ___ / (__/ / / / | Student of Computing Science, SFU

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am an avid flyfisherman, both streams and lakes (mostly lakes). I am 17 years old and try to go fishing as much as possible. What I wanted to know is if there are any decent dry damselfly patterns out there. I have seen a few with extended deer hair bodies, polypropylene wings, and parachute hackles, but I also wanted to know if there where any other patterns for this insect. I have not yet seen any dry dragonfly patterns, so I want to know about them as well. Although I personally don’t prefer dry fly fishing on stillwaters but, it can be very succesful at times. Scott Laliberte . — ___ __ ____ ___ / (__/ / / / | Student of Computing Science, SFU

I’ve been told that the reason for the lack of dragon fly dry imitations is because the fish only take them in mid flight, not sitting on the water (when is the last time you saw a dragon sitting on the water?). With damsels, I tie an extended deer hair parachute adams in both blue (for the female) and tan (for the male), and have gotten limited success. My most interesting catch was when a natural mounted my dry and tried to copulate with it in mid cast! I’ve had my best luck fishing waters laden with damsels using a yellow marabou nymph. Basically, it looks like a long AP, but tied with palmered marabou for a body instead of dubbing. Good luck. . Lenny Bloksberg . .

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Philippe Laliberte) writes: any dry damsel patterns?

Look in the book "Tying Dry Flies" by R. Kaufmann. Has a "braided butt damsel" using braided leader butt for the extended body. These flies are also available in the Kaufmann catalog. I have an example of this fly in front of me now and it is a fine rendition. After hatching, adult damsels are often blown onto the water where the trout feast on them.

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I am an avid flyfisherman, both streams and lakes (mostly lakes). I am 17 years old and try to go fishing as much as possible. What I wanted to know is if there are any decent dry damselfly patterns out there. I have seen a few with extended deer hair bodies, polypropylene wings, and parachute hackles, but I also wanted to know if there where any other patterns for this insect. I have not yet seen any dry dragonfly patterns, so I want to know about them as well. Although I personally don’t prefer dry fly fishing on stillwaters but, it can be very succesful at times.

The best pattern I’ve found is the Borger damsel which has a body made of braided leader material which you dye with pantone markers (blue or brown & black). Tie this on the hook then tie on a post of crystal flash (blue or brown) then wind a big grizzly hackle on this post papachute style. Now dub on a short body and eyes if you want them then pull the hackle to the back so it splays 180 deg. in the rear, pull down the post and tie it off like a nymph wing case. You can’t tell this thing from a real bug on the water and I’ve had males try and mate with my blue imitations. Tim

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Philippe Laliberte) writes:

<I am an avid flyfisherman, both streams and lakes (mostly lakes). I am 17 years old and try to go fishing as much as possible. What I wanted to know is if there are any decent dry damselfly patterns out there. Curtis: Have been fly fishing for trout and bass for 20 years. I think I’ve seen some big fish hit damselfly nymphs, but cannot confirm it. I know I have never observed a big fish rise for a damselfly dry. I’ve tied several different patterns myself and have copied Dave Whitlock and R. Kaufmann patterns without success. Personally, I think it is a waste of time to focus on damselfly dry patterns. If anyone disagrees, please let me know. I’d appreciate insights based on observations. Thanks…Bob Elliott. Rochester, NY

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Last summer I landed 2 22"+ trout on adult damsels and hooked 2 other fish that easily went 26" on them too, loosing one when my reel fell apart after all my line and 1/2 my backing was gone. Big fish gulp damsels at the right time and they do work. Tim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Curtis: Have been fly fishing for trout and bass for 20 years. I think I’ve seen some big fish hit damselfly nymphs, but cannot confirm it. I know I have never observed a big fish rise for a damselfly dry. I’ve tied several different patterns myself and have copied Dave Whitlock and R. Kaufmann patterns without success. Personally, I think it is a waste of time to focus on damselfly dry patterns. If anyone disagrees, please let me know. I’d appreciate insights based on observations. Thanks…Bob Elliott. Rochester, NY

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Curtis: Have been fly fishing for trout and bass for 20 years. I think I’ve seen some big fish hit damselfly nymphs, but cannot confirm it. I know I have never observed a big fish rise for a damselfly dry. I’ve tied several different patterns myself and have copied Dave Whitlock and R. Kaufmann patterns without success. Personally, I think it is a waste of time to focus on damselfly dry patterns. If anyone disagrees, please let me know. I’d appreciate insights based on observations. Thanks…Bob Elliott. Rochester, NY

Bob, I have seen fish jump out of the water a good foot for a damselfly sitting on some grass. This happened at a lake near Cody Wyoming. These trout would swim all around you in about 1 to 3 ft. of water. They would sit and eye the damselfly for a second or two and then spring out of the water for the insect. It was really quite interesting watching this fish do this and of course I did not have any damselfly patterns with me. Tim Trujillo

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What I wanted to know is if there are any decent dry damselfly patterns out there. Curtis: Have been fly fishing for trout and bass for 20 years. I think I’ve seen some big fish hit damselfly nymphs, but cannot confirm it. I know I have

I cannot compete with you regarding years fished, but I have to disagree. patterns without success. Personally, I think it is a waste of time to focus on damselfly dry patterns. If anyone disagrees, please let me know. I’d appreciate insights based on observations. Thanks…Bob Elliott.

If you would go to any Western lake in British Columbia or Alberta, damselflies are your "bread and butter" flies. Especially on trophy lakes in BC. Many of times, especially on widy days that’s the only fly the big trout (20" plus) will take. It’s quite nice watching these about 1 inch long, slender creatures wiggle and struggle on their journey just to be taken with a VERY AGGRESSIVE splash. Not too complicated to tie, one of the best patterns is from G. Borger’s Designing Trout Flies. The only modification I’ve made is that I’m using seal in a dubbing loop instead of recommended hackle. Of course, the fly has to have an action, so tying it on a dry fly hook is better than nymph hook (the new Accupoint from Mustad is just great!). Fish it just on or couple inches below the surface with jerky, short strips. Respectfully J.K.

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