Question:

Hey Folks, Does anyone have any advice on where to go in Southern Wisconsin for a short flyfishing trip. Don’t know much about the area and I’m traeling from Western Indiana. Thanks in advance. Elliott

Response:

"ilmbaba" wrote… Hey Folks, Does anyone have any advice on where to go in Southern Wisconsin for a short flyfishing trip. Don’t know much about the area and I’m traeling from Western Indiana. Thanks in advance. Elliott

What is your definition of Souther Wisconsin? What is your definition of a short flyfishing trip? Are you fishing for trout or other species? From Madison west to the Mississippi. From 30 miles south of Madison to over 100 miles north of Madison are 100 trout streams or more. Contact the Wisc. DNR. Contact the Madison Chapter of TU.   Get on the web and do a search.   You’ll find something I’m sure. Good luck. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "ilmbaba" wrote… Hey Folks, Does anyone have any advice on where to go in Southern Wisconsin for a short flyfishing trip. Don’t know much about the area and I’m traeling from Western Indiana. Thanks in advance. Elliott What is your definition of Souther Wisconsin? What is your definition of a short flyfishing trip? Are you fishing for trout or other species? From Madison west to the Mississippi. From 30 miles south of Madison to over 100 miles north of Madison are 100 trout streams or more. Contact the Wisc. DNR. Contact the Madison Chapter of TU.   Get on the web and do a search.   You’ll find something I’m sure. Good luck.

Or you could just contact Wolfgang since he thinks telling everybody about the streams he fishes is okay.  He doesn’t mind the impact and enjoys the company. Perhaps he can even recommend some good books or magazines too. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "ilmbaba" wrote… Hey Folks, Does anyone have any advice on where to go in Southern Wisconsin for a short flyfishing trip. Don’t know much about the area and I’m traeling from Western Indiana. Thanks in advance. Elliott What is your definition of Souther Wisconsin? What is your definition of a short flyfishing trip? Are you fishing for trout or other species? From Madison west to the Mississippi. From 30 miles south of Madison to over 100 miles north of Madison are 100 trout streams or more. Contact the Wisc. DNR. Contact the Madison Chapter of TU. Get on the web and do a search. You’ll find something I’m sure. Good luck. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

Sorry for being so vague. Southern Wisconsin would be from a little above Madison or so. I am aiming for trout (or getting laughed at by same said trout). Short would be two to 2 1/2 days including travel. I have done alot of research and there are, as you said, alot of streams. I guess what I’m looking for is info from folks that have fished some of them and if anyone has an idea of which ones to try first or avoid.

Response:

Question:

Goto www.africanfishing.com and click on "articles" and then "pain of cane". My experiences with silk are there.

Haven’t seen the recent improvements you made to your site.  Nice work. So you’re married to someone who catches bigger fish than you?  Looks like she’s not afraid to handle a tigerfish.  What did you do to deserve this fortunate curse?  BTW, I thought you had mentioned catching mullet a while back.  Do you pursue mullet? Mu

Response:

Not my wife (Gaelle), lest she kill me. Just a co-presenter (Taryn McCann) who catches bigger fish. My curse? Having to fire her pretty ass before she catches more! I ain’t caught no mullet. Sudesh Pursad has (I think) www.bamba.co.za. Ari Goto www.africanfishing.com and click on "articles" and then "pain of cane". My experiences with silk are there. Haven’t seen the recent improvements you made to your site.  Nice work. So you’re married to someone who catches bigger fish than you?  Looks like she’s not afraid to handle a tigerfish.  What did you do to deserve this fortunate curse?  BTW, I thought you had mentioned catching mullet a while back.  Do you pursue mullet? Mu

Ari & Gaelle Bert                                   +27 (0) 83 232 9903 & +27 (0) 83 236 5308 +27 (0) 11 443 9984 / +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)                 www.troutfishing.co.za www.africanfishing.com Physical Address: 72 Swemmer Rd, Sunningdale, 2192 Postal Address: P.O.Box 79067, Senderwood, 2145, South Africa

Response:

I would like to have comments of Silk Fly lines by someone who has used one. And, anyone know of a source in the U.S. for same? Michael

Mike, I love casting a silk line, they really bring old bamboo rods to life. they need fussing with but it’s worth it when using the older rods with small line guides. and it floats well when fresh. when it gets waterlogged around lunch time just spread it out between a couple trees to air dry, finish lunch and retreat with Mucilin Red Label- don’t use the Green Label, it has silicone which is BAD for silk. or you can do what i do and buy two half lines – Thebault makes them – and switch lines when one gets waterlogged. you can find Phoenix and Thebault lines at www.wagnerrods.com at a good price. the Phoenix is a more polished line right out of the box, the Thebault will take a little breaking in. both are beautiful to look at and hit the water so softly and quietly….try it , you’ll like it cheers, Bob please visit my site at http://www.bluecollarcane.com

Response:

I would like to have comments of Silk Fly lines by someone who has used one. And, anyone know of a source in the U.S. for same?

I use a Phoenix silk DT5 on an old bamboo rod. They’re a match made in flyfishing heaven. Have never tried it on a modern rod. The only place I know of to get a NEW silk line is to mail order from Phoenix in France. http://www.phoenixlines.com/ You can find used silk in the US, but be careful, and make sure you’re getting silk and not nylon. Reed Curry has an excellent article on his web site about purchasing and cleaning old silk lines. http://www.overmywaders.com/articles/cleaningsilk.html HTH — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Goto www.africanfishing.com and click on "articles" and then "pain of cane". My experiences with silk are there. Ari I would like to have comments of Silk Fly lines by someone who has used one. And, anyone know of a source in the U.S. for same? Michael

Ari & Gaelle Bert                                   +27 (0) 83 232 9903 & +27 (0) 83 236 5308 +27 (0) 11 443 9984 / +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)                 www.troutfishing.co.za www.africanfishing.com Physical Address: 72 Swemmer Rd, Sunningdale, 2192 Postal Address: P.O.Box 79067, Senderwood, 2145, South Africa

Response:

I would like to have comments of Silk Fly lines by someone who has used one. And, anyone know of a source in the U.S. for same? Michael

Response:

Question:

" so I my be incommunicado for a while anyway.

so what’s different? –waldo

Response:

The cash register at your shop communicated just fine with me today, as did Tommy. Damn that fella can sell! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – " so I my be incommunicado for a while anyway. so what’s different? –waldo

Response:

<SNIP Op  –but maybe I will be able to afford to sex– Unlike ISP

Question:

The village idiot has shown uncharacteristic wisdom and good sense in avoiding me, as evidenced by actually being in Ennis during the first Western ‘Clave and not daring to show his face. Outrageous fantasies like you describe above, should he decide to believe them, would not work out well in reality. Hey Tough Guy, you’re sure a BAD ass! You want to take on a guy with what, twenty years on you? I’m sure that you strutted around with this macho, hard guy attitude at the local bars in Gardiner.

My experience has always been that those who go around bragging about how tough they are, aren’t.      - Ken

Response:

…  I honestly believe it would be water under the bridge if you’d just act like a regular person, show up, meet some people and hang out.  OK, maybe a couple that you have really pissed will need some sort of apology first, … The village idiot has shown uncharacteristic wisdom and good sense in avoiding me, as evidenced by actually being in Ennis during the first Western ‘Clave and not daring to show his face. Outrageous fantasies like you describe above, should he decide to believe them, would not work out well in reality.

You are such a sssstud.  I wanna be just like you when I’m an old geezer with a chip on my shoulder.      - Ken

Response:

I would not hesitate to call this to the attention of the appropriate authorities.

Your finest hour, I’d imagine. — Charlie…

Response:

Really Ken?  I would say that most anyone of good character and wisdom would avoid *you* too, but there are some folk here that seem to like or at least tolerate you, and I believe they are of decent character and wise beyond belief–so go figure this one. I will be at the Penn’s ‘Clave, and will at least attempt to fish with George/you, should y’all show.  Is this an unwise move on my part?  The occasion will certainly give you an opportunity to give George and me the verbal thrashing that we so richly deserve, as I know, "in reality", you are not suggesting that you might become physical with another ROFFian.

Hi Op,  You appear to have a great mellon on your shoulders.  If you ever show up in Montana, drop me an email and I would be happy to show you some of my *new* home waters. Thanks for trying to keep Ken honest. Paul — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

…  I honestly believe it would be water under the bridge if you’d just act like a regular person, show up, meet some people and hang out.  OK, maybe a couple that you have really pissed will need some sort of apology first, …

The village idiot has shown uncharacteristic wisdom and good sense in avoiding me, as evidenced by actually being in Ennis during the first Western ‘Clave and not daring to show his face. Outrageous fantasies like you describe above, should he decide to believe them, would not work out well in reality. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

okay

–waldo, ticket concessionaire….. have coat rack, will travel.

Response:

okay –waldo, ticket concessionaire….. have coat rack, will travel.

I predict bad weather. — Charlie…

Response:

okay –waldo, ticket concessionaire….. have coat rack, will travel. I predict bad weather.

Exactly.

Response:

The village idiot has shown uncharacteristic wisdom and good sense in avoiding me, as evidenced by actually being in Ennis during the first Western ‘Clave and not daring to show his face. Outrageous fantasies like you describe above, should he decide to believe them, would not work out well in reality. — Ken Fortenberry

Really Ken?  I would say that most anyone of good character and wisdom would avoid *you* too, but there are some folk here that seem to like or at least tolerate you, and I believe they are of decent character and wise beyond belief–so go figure this one. I will be at the Penn’s ‘Clave, and will at least attempt to fish with George/you, should y’all show.  Is this an unwise move on my part?  The occasion will certainly give you an opportunity to give George and me the verbal thrashing that we so richly deserve, as I know, "in reality", you are not suggesting that you might become physical with another ROFFian. Op  –reluctant pacifist–

Response:

Op writes: I will be at the Penn’s ‘Clave, and will at least attempt to fish with George/you, should y’all show.

Uh, Op, George won’t be at the Penns Clave.  Three things will keep him from showing up:  1.  A yellow stripe down his back.  2.  He doesn’t have a pilot’s license. 3. A yellow stripe down his back. But, I hope to fish with ya.  <g Dave

Response:

… I will be at the Penn’s ‘Clave, and will at least attempt to fish with George/you, should y’all show.  Is this an unwise move on my part? …

George won’t show and I’m pretty picky about who I fish with. I would decline to fish with any "sportsman" who’s nigh on a poacher and who boasts of destructive and illegal joy rides in our National Forests. An unwise move would be carrying an illegal concealed weapon. I would not hesitate to call this to the attention of the appropriate authorities. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

HI op,  send me an e-mail. I need your return e-mail address. Tried to send you something, but it just bounces. TL MC

Response:

The village idiot has shown uncharacteristic wisdom and good sense in avoiding me, as evidenced by actually being in Ennis during the first Western ‘Clave and not daring to show his face. Outrageous fantasies like you describe above, should he decide to believe them, would not work out well in reality.

Hey Tough Guy, you’re sure a BAD ass! You want to take on a guy with what, twenty years on you? I’m sure that you strutted around with this macho, hard guy attitude at the local bars in Gardiner. Willi

Response:

What a nice thing to say Willi. Enjoying your posts. George

     yes, george, most of us share that feeling.  and do you know why absolutely no one will respond to your posts in a similar fashion?  because when you had the opportunity to describe your experience with the same sort of improving fisherman, you used it as the means to drop names, describe your own excellence, and falsely attribute an hyperegotistical statement to your adoring sheep:  "…even an icon like you, george (or words to that effect)…"      until you accept the fact that the difference between you and folks like willi is not measured by absolute talent or experience, but how you relate to your fellow man, you will never be accepted among gentlemen in the fashion you so deeply desire. awh

Response:

Got back from a great trip to The Juan, again admirably hosted by Bruce. Some good fishing, decent weather and great companionship.

[ Nice compliments from a true fisher-gentlemen snipped...] I also had a great time at the Juan. It’s one thing to read books and watch videos. As a novice, you can learn a great deal by experimenting on your own. It’s the *real* thing to watch guys like Willi, Charlie, Bruce, Warren, et al, work a piece of water. If your within eyesight or earshot of them, you can’t help but improve, fishing and otherwise. It has been often said that "Those that can, do. Those that can’t, teach." These fellows prove that, for the friends of the gifted, doing and teaching are the same thing. Danl

Response:

     yes, george, most of us share that feeling.  and do you know why absolutely no one will respond to your posts in a similar fashion?  because when you had the opportunity to describe your experience with the same sort of improving fisherman, you used it as the means to drop names, describe your own excellence, and falsely attribute an hyperegotistical statement to your adoring sheep:  "…even an icon like you, george (or words to that effect)…"      until you accept the fact that the difference between you and folks like willi is not measured by absolute talent or experience, but how you relate to your fellow man, you will never be accepted among gentlemen in the fashion you so deeply desire. awh

I’m sure that is the way it seems to you Wayne, but rest assured you should not take me as seriously as you do.  I’m just the guy across the river that keeps stumbling on his untied tennis shoes.  Nothing more, nothing less. geg

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     yes, george, most of us share that feeling.  and do you know why absolutely no one will respond to your posts in a similar fashion?  because when you had the opportunity to describe your experience with the same sort of improving fisherman, you used it as the means to drop names, describe your own excellence, and falsely attribute an hyperegotistical statement to your adoring sheep:  "…even an icon like you, george (or words to that effect)…"     until you accept the fact that the difference between you and folks like willi is not measured by absolute talent or experience, but how you relate to your fellow man, you will never be accepted among gentlemen in the fashion you so deeply desire. awh I’m sure that is the way it seems to you Wayne, but rest assured you should not take me as seriously as you do.  I’m just the guy across the river that keeps stumbling on his untied tennis shoes.  Nothing more, nothing less. geg

…well, why doesn’t that "guy" post here more often.  sounds like someone i could appreciate and identify with…  why don’t you come to penns in may and stumble about with the rest of us? jeff

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     yes, george, most of us share that feeling.  and do you know why absolutely no one will respond to your posts in a similar fashion?  because when you had the opportunity to describe your experience with the same sort of improving fisherman, you used it as the means to drop names, describe your own excellence, and falsely attribute an hyperegotistical statement to your adoring sheep:  "…even an icon like you, george (or words to that effect)…"     until you accept the fact that the difference between you and folks like willi is not measured by absolute talent or experience, but how you relate to your fellow man, you will never be accepted among gentlemen in the fashion you so deeply desire. awh I’m sure that is the way it seems to you Wayne, but rest assured you should not take me as seriously as you do.  I’m just the guy across the river that keeps stumbling on his untied tennis shoes.  Nothing more, nothing less. geg …well, why doesn’t that "guy" post here more often.  sounds like someone i could appreciate and identify with…  why don’t you come to penns in may and stumble about with the rest of us? jeff

okay

Response:

…..I’m just the guy across the river that keeps stumbling on his untied

tennis shoes….. Yes, well, that’s because you always have at least one foot in your mouth. The mouth is, of course, firmly attached to your head, and we all know where that lives.  No one could possibly walk thus contorted, even with velcro closures. Then again, you’re an idiot. Wolfgang

Response:

… why don’t you come to penns in may … okay

Yeah, that would be … interesting. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I’m just the guy across the river that keeps stumbling on his untied tennis shoes.  Nothing more, nothing less. geg

You misspelled "gag" BTW. –Steve

Response:

I’m sure that is the way it seems to you Wayne, but rest assured you should not take me as seriously as you do.  I’m just the guy across the river that keeps stumbling on his untied tennis shoes.  Nothing more, nothing less. …well, why doesn’t that "guy" post here more often.  sounds like someone i could appreciate and identify with…  why don’t you come to penns in may and stumble about with the rest of us? okay

You know what the funny thing is George?  As much as you appear to be a buffoon, as much as you irritate people, as much as you are downright despised by a few, I honestly believe it would be water under the bridge if you’d just act like a regular person, show up, meet some people and hang out.  OK, maybe a couple that you have really pissed will need some sort of apology first, but on the whole this is an incredible group of gentlemen that will accept people for what they are and be genuinely nice to anyone that is at least sincere, and approachable, and who possesses an ego no larger than, say, the state in which they are fishing.  Considering how much people seem to dislike you, don’t you find it remarkable how many invitations you get to claves?  People here are interested in camaraderie and sharing, not self-aggrandizement.  I think you’d be surprised what could change. I do not hate you.  You’ve insulted me personally, in counterattack to be fair, but nothing that I ever took seriously.  The times you have really offended me were times when you were not speaking directly to me, when you tried to make yourself more important than the things we hold dear, such as a clave, or a friendship, or the memory of a person.

Response:

It has been often said that "Those that can, do. Those that can’t, teach." These fellows prove that, for the friends of the gifted, doing and teaching are the same thing.

Yeah man.

Response:

Got back from a great trip to The Juan, again admirably hosted by Bruce. Some good fishing, decent weather and great companionship. However, the thing that gave me the most pleasure was to see the growth in fly fishing skills of a couple of the participants. I’ve been fishing with most of these guys for about a year and a half. I was very impressed by the progress made by a couple of the guys. They started with little idea where to cast the fly, an inability to put the fly where they wanted, no clue as to what fly to choose and forget about presentation. (No offense meant by this) They have progressed to the point that they were able to catch fussy fish on a large river in difficult, murky water conditions. They were able to choose appropriate flies (one of them even gave me a couple flies that were effective for me the next day on several very tough fish), find appropriate spots and use appropriate techniques that resulted in some nice fish. Great to see! Willi

Response:

What a nice thing to say Willi. Enjoying your posts. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Got back from a great trip to The Juan, again admirably hosted by Bruce. Some good fishing, decent weather and great companionship. However, the thing that gave me the most pleasure was to see the growth in fly fishing skills of a couple of the participants. I’ve been fishing with most of these guys for about a year and a half. I was very impressed by the progress made by a couple of the guys. They started with little idea where to cast the fly, an inability to put the fly where they wanted, no clue as to what fly to choose and forget about presentation. (No offense meant by this) They have progressed to the point that they were able to catch fussy fish on a large river in difficult, murky water conditions. They were able to choose appropriate flies (one of them even gave me a couple flies that were effective for me the next day on several very tough fish), find appropriate spots and use appropriate techniques that resulted in some nice fish. Great to see! Willi

Response:

Question:

My only intent to night was to show that there are no enforceable rules, and that there is a great deal of hypocrisy within this newsgroup.  No, I am not stating that all posters to this group are hypocrites.  But, it seems that the rules don’t apply to all here.  How is one to know where the line is drawn, if one person posts an e-mail excerpt and is chastised, but another is not.  I believe that there were e-mail conversations with Mr. G which were posted to this group in the past, where were the indignant calls for netiquette then? I was not attacking Walt, I was merely stating that it was possible that someone would. I would not have sent a nasty reply to your reply, but you chose to take my original post as a personal affront.  "Surly" is hardly a vicious term. Hell, some might well accept the term as a badge of honor. You stated in your reply to my post that:  "Someone with no knowledge of computers or usenet is not capable of programming the sort of stuff contained in those posts."  However, in your very polite reply to NAMROF you state: "You may be right Levi. I did a little checking on the web.tv thing, apparently not much knowledge of anything at all is required to put all that stuff in a post, most of the havoc caused on my machine was apparently because the browser was initiated in order to download "attachments" required for all the "bells and whistles", and this initiated an automatic dial-up, which is impossible to stop, and which in turn started some other program, and crashed my machine after whirring about on the hard drive for a while. I really did think I had got some sort of virus or other, and was very annoyed and worried indeed." I will continue in this vein as long as I see fit. Opie in NC Someone has to replace Mr. G — Mark H. Bowen Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. –Samuel Johnson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are just trying to provoke some sort of reaction with this stuff apparently.  This guy has been trying to flog this damn book for a coons age on here and elsewhere, along with several others if I recall correctly. Nobody has complained or slammed him, just a few harmless comments were made. The information contained in the posts was accurate and contained no personal animosity or uncivil remarks. I collect fishing books, and toyed with the idea of buying this one, which is why I happened to have some quotes and prices on it, and why I was informed as to the subject matter. I have seen this book advertised by various people, and signed by various people,  at prices ranging from less than 20$ up to over 100$, I do not doubt for one second that a bookseller would be able to get hold of it for less. Having now seen several excerpts, it is apparently no great shakes anyway, unless one is particularly interested in the history of that area and family as regards fly-dressing. The information Walt gave was valuable to anybody who might have been considering buying it.  When somebody then comes along and calls Walt a liar, specifically with regard to a post on ROFF,  what do you expect him to do ? Who knows what occurs per e-mail ?  Walt

Question:

That should be a great time to fish the ‘Horn and it’s not that far of a drive from Denver.

Out west, "not that far of a drive" means you can get there in a day. The Bighorn is at least an 8 hour drive from Denver, probably closer to 10.  It’s a fine river, but a 3 day trip would mean 2 long days of driving for a single day of fishing, on a river where wade access is VERY limited. Also, the Bighorn doesn’t have a true "runoff" period, but the flows can and do go up considerably during May and June, making it that much harder to wade. Any decent fly (or tackle) shop in Denver should be able to direct you to something much closer.  There are plenty of lakes and tailwaters a couple hours’ away from Denver that should be fine. CQ

Response:

That should be a great time to fish the ‘Horn and it’s not that far of a drive from Denver. I will be in Denver May 20th for 5 days,  where could I drive to for fishing not blown out by run off.  Any ideas??? You’ll need a very fast car to get you up to Montana and back and to throw in some fishing if ya only have 5 days…nearest fishing in MT would be the Big Horn..and it might not be "blown out"

– Brian D. Nelson, Missoula, Montana Montana Flyfishing and Hunting Outfitter http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm http://www.montana.com/dno/hunt.htm

Response:

: I will be in Denver May 20th for 5 days,  where could I drive to for : fishing not blown out by run off.  Any ideas??? The southern hemisphere? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

: I will be in Denver May 20th for 5 days,  where could I drive to for : fishing not blown out by run off.  Any ideas???

Go to the Platte River Cemetery at Deckers which is Tailwater below the dam.  There is also South Park.  Better you than me.  I hope you have a good time. Mr. G.

Response:

I will be in Denver May 20th for 5 days,  where could I drive to for fishing not blown out by run off.  Any ideas???

Response:

I will be in Denver May 20th for 5 days,  where could I drive to for fishing not blown out by run off.  Any ideas???

You’ll need a very fast car to get you up to Montana and back and to throw in some fishing if ya only have 5 days…nearest fishing in MT would be the Big Horn..and it might not be "blown out"

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi. Perhaps not, but here is what is posted on The River Alliance of Wisconsin website: http://www.igc.apc.org/wisrivers/ "Victory on the St. Croix River Department of Interior Vetoes Stillwater Bridge As a New Year’s present to the St. Croix the Department of the Interior decided to veto the proposed Stillwater Bridge across the National Wild and Scenic St. Croix River. The decision came partly as a result of public pressure from concerned citizens. Hmmm…. It is very strange to read this article. As a resident of Stillwater for the past 10 years, I can tell you this bridge project, or a number like it, have been around since I’ve been here. Last I heard the project was still on. Here is a quote from another article I found.    Still on this year’s list are West Virginia’s Corridor H project,    Indiana’s I-69, Connecticut’s Route 6, California’s I-710, U.S.    Forest Service roads, the Automated Highway System and    Minnesota’s Stillwater Bridge.  Meanwhile, the Stillwater bridge    project’s inclusion in Green Scissors for a second year promoted    more calls for the project’s re-evaluation.  In a Minneapolis Star    Tribune article, (2/5) Rep. Jim Randstad, (R-MN) who endorsed    the report, criticized the bridge project: "They need to go back to    the drawing board.  (The project) needs to be scaled down    consistent with the area’s environment." Declaring "Victory" sounds very bizarre to me. We have very complex situation here. First, the current Stillwater bridge is deteriorating fast, (not to mention that it is a hideous monstrosity). Second, the recreational pressures on the St Croix Valley are tremendous and Stillwater is at the epicenter of this pressure. The result, a huge traffic jam every Saturday & Sunday, morning and evening. Third, while the St Croix is a "National Scenic Waterway", the area they are planning to build is hardly the most scenic part of the river. NSP plant just down river, Stillwater Water Treatment is right there. A bridge is needed, but not one of the scale they have planned. -Michael                                                                        

 This is helpful, because it strongly suggests this is NOT the same proposed bridge.  The one I was talking about would be over the St. Croix itself and IN WISCONSIN, not Minnesota!

Response:

This is helpful, because it strongly suggests this is NOT the same proposed bridge.  The one I was talking about would be over the St. Croix itself and IN WISCONSIN, not Minnesota!

The St. Croix River is the border between Wi and MN from Prescott WI (About 20 miles SE of St. Paul) north to St. Croix Falls (maybe a little further north.)   If they’re talking about the Stillwater bridge I doubt the project will seriously effect the scenic value of the area which is essentially suburban.  (5 miles downstream I-94 crosses the river on two large bridges.  4 miles downstream a railroad bridge crosses the river.)  For a glimpse of the Stillwater bridge watch the movie "Grumpier Old Men".  The scene where Mel and the guy are breaking up is shot on the waterfront in Stillwater with the bridge in the background. If they’re talking about a bridge over the St. Croix where its inland in Wisconsin then I have to know if we’re talking about a one culvert bridge or a two culvert bridge?  (Its not that big a river farther north.) John Close

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi. Perhaps not, but here is what is posted on The River Alliance of Wisconsin website: http://www.igc.apc.org/wisrivers/ "Victory on the St. Croix River Department of Interior Vetoes Stillwater Bridge As a New Year’s present to the St. Croix the Department of the Interior decided to veto the proposed Stillwater Bridge across the National Wild and Scenic St. Croix River. The decision came partly as a result of public pressure from concerned citizens. The Sierra Club, Northstar Chapter, in Minnesota, spearheaded the effort to protect the river. In early December the River Alliance teamed up with the Sierra Club to send an Urgent Alert to 600+ River Alliance members across Wisconsin asking them to write to Secretary of the Interior, Bruce Babbitt. William Schenk, Park Service Midwest Area Director, said of the project, "the massive structure would adversely affect the natural and historic scene, altering the scenic qualities of this segment of the river more than any development since designation as a National Wild and Scenic Riverway." The unnecessary project would have increased urban sprawl and added a large cement structure to a previously untouched area of the riverway. This project would have forever changed the character of the area. Sara Johnson, Executive Director of the River Alliance, said of the decision, "What a great way to start the New Year. The bridge was a terrible idea and we applaud the Department of the Interior for stopping the project. This decision sends a strong message that our Wild and Scenic Rivers are national treasures not to be messed with." If you know of another bridge project, I’d be glad to hear about it.                                                                        

 THANK YOU very much!!!  I’ll bet it’s the same one after all—weird that the local newspaper that printed the story didn’t say a word about this deus-ex-machina manuever by the Dept. of the Interior!—but if I learn any more about it I’ll post it.  Thanks again!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi. Perhaps not, but here is what is posted on The River Alliance of Wisconsin website: http://www.igc.apc.org/wisrivers/ "Victory on the St. Croix River Department of Interior Vetoes Stillwater Bridge As a New Year’s present to the St. Croix the Department of the Interior decided to veto the proposed Stillwater Bridge across the National Wild and Scenic St. Croix River. The decision came partly as a result of public pressure from concerned citizens.

Hmmm…. It is very strange to read this article. As a resident of Stillwater for the past 10 years, I can tell you this bridge project, or a number like it, have been around since I’ve been here. Last I heard the project was still on. Here is a quote from another article I found.    Still on this year’s list are West Virginia’s Corridor H project,    Indiana’s I-69, Connecticut’s Route 6, California’s I-710, U.S.    Forest Service roads, the Automated Highway System and    Minnesota’s Stillwater Bridge.  Meanwhile, the Stillwater bridge    project’s inclusion in Green Scissors for a second year promoted    more calls for the project’s re-evaluation.  In a Minneapolis Star    Tribune article, (2/5) Rep. Jim Randstad, (R-MN) who endorsed    the report, criticized the bridge project: "They need to go back to    the drawing board.  (The project) needs to be scaled down    consistent with the area’s environment."   Declaring "Victory" sounds very bizarre to me. We have very complex situation here. First, the current Stillwater bridge is deteriorating fast, (not to mention that it is a hideous monstrosity). Second, the recreational pressures on the St Croix Valley are tremendous and Stillwater is at the epicenter of this pressure. The result, a huge traffic jam every Saturday & Sunday, morning and evening. Third, while the St Croix is a "National Scenic Waterway", the area they are planning to build is hardly the most scenic part of the river. NSP plant just down river, Stillwater Water Treatment is right there. A bridge is needed, but not one of the scale they have planned. -Michael

Response:

Yesterday I got another shock:  It seems there is now a debate over building a huge modern goddamn BRIDGE over the river…or perhaps downstream over the St. Croix into which the Namekagon flows, which is (has been?) equally wild and gorgeous.  I suggested that the "wild river" designation might induce a false sense of security among those who care about such matters…? Fortunately that bridge was vetoed by the Department of the Interior. For more information, you might check out the River Alliance of Wisconsin website.  I don’t have the url handy but you can link there from http://www.awa.org/awa/affil_clubs/rts.htm

Wild and Scenic has meant improving the road, blocking off the pull over on the shoulder where we use to park to scout Pin Ball , building over priced signs and getting on the web for the ——. Next will come the fees, permits and the crowds. I’m sure it has also done some good that I haven’t noticed.                                gene

Response:

Yesterday I got another shock:  It seems there is now a debate over building a huge modern goddamn BRIDGE over the river…or perhaps downstream over the St. Croix into which the Namekagon flows, which is (has been?) equally wild and gorgeous.  I suggested that the "wild river" designation might induce a false sense of security among those who care about such matters…? Fortunately that bridge was vetoed by the Department of the Interior. For more information, you might check out the River Alliance of Wisconsin website.  I don’t have the url handy but you can link there from http://www.awa.org/awa/affil_clubs/rts.htm                                                                        

 Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi.

Response:

 Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi.

Perhaps not, but here is what is posted on The River Alliance of Wisconsin website: http://www.igc.apc.org/wisrivers/ "Victory on the St. Croix River Department of Interior Vetoes Stillwater Bridge As a New Year’s present to the St. Croix the Department of the Interior decided to veto the proposed Stillwater Bridge across the National Wild and Scenic St. Croix River. The decision came partly as a result of public pressure from concerned citizens. The Sierra Club, Northstar Chapter, in Minnesota, spearheaded the effort to protect the river. In early December the River Alliance teamed up with the Sierra Club to send an Urgent Alert to 600+ River Alliance members across Wisconsin asking them to write to Secretary of the Interior, Bruce Babbitt. William Schenk, Park Service Midwest Area Director, said of the project, "the massive structure would adversely affect the natural and historic scene, altering the scenic qualities of this segment of the river more than any development since designation as a National Wild and Scenic Riverway." The unnecessary project would have increased urban sprawl and added a large cement structure to a previously untouched area of the riverway. This project would have forever changed the character of the area. Sara Johnson, Executive Director of the River Alliance, said of the decision, "What a great way to start the New Year. The bridge was a terrible idea and we applaud the Department of the Interior for stopping the project. This decision sends a strong message that our Wild and Scenic Rivers are national treasures not to be messed with." If you know of another bridge project, I’d be glad to hear about it.

Response:

Yesterday I got another shock:  It seems there is now a debate over building a huge modern goddamn BRIDGE over the river…or perhaps downstream over the St. Croix into which the Namekagon flows, which is (has been?) equally wild and gorgeous.  I suggested that the "wild river" designation might induce a false sense of security among those who care about such matters…?

Fortunately that bridge was vetoed by the Department of the Interior. For more information, you might check out the River Alliance of Wisconsin website.  I don’t have the url handy but you can link there from http://www.awa.org/awa/affil_clubs/rts.htm

Response:

I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land, they can’t regulate it. hmm.  The Yellow Dog River in the western upper peninsula is a designated Wild and Scenic River.  It starts in a national wilderness area and flows through that area only a couple miles, and then flows the rest of its length through state lands, but still designated Wild and Scenic along its entire length. are there exceptions? ——Muskie

A single stretch can be designated either Wild, Scenic or Recreational or all three depending on the amount of development and access at each segment.  Take a look at http://www.nps.gov/ccso/wildriverslist.htm for a complete list.  Thanks for the info.  Yea we’re up here in GodforsakenMontana- more snow this December than any other single month in history.  Should have some good flows through the whole summer…  I’m still looking for any type of Wild and Scenic info I can find on how the designation affects the people and businesses afterwards.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land, they can’t regulate it. hmm.  The Yellow Dog River in the western upper peninsula is a designated Wild and Scenic River.  It starts in a national wilderness area and flows through that area only a couple miles, and then flows the rest of its length through state lands, but still designated Wild and Scenic along its entire length. are there exceptions? ——Muskie A single stretch can be designated either Wild, Scenic or Recreational or all three depending on the amount of development and access at each segment.  Take a look at http://www.nps.gov/ccso/wildriverslist.htm for a complete list.  Thanks for the info.  Yea we’re up here in GodforsakenMontana- more snow this December than any other single month in history.  Should have some good flows through the whole summer…  I’m still looking for any type of Wild and Scenic info I can find on how the designation affects the people and businesses afterwards.                                                                        

 I don’t know if this is within the ball-park as to what you want, but here goes:  A while ago I wrote about the construction of a huge Interstate section along the Namekagon River, a gorgeous river in Northwest Wisconsin that was the first river to go under the "protection" of federal designation as a "wild river"…long BEFORE the Intersate was built.  My point (apparently misunderstood) was that such designation apparently did nothing to protect the river in that case.  Yesterday I got another shock:  It seems there is now a debate over building a huge modern goddamn BRIDGE over the river…or perhaps downstream over the St. Croix into which the Namekagon flows, which is (has been?) equally wild and gorgeous.  I suggested that the "wild river" designation might induce a false sense of security among those who care about such matters…?

Response:

 I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are  administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land,  they can’t regulate it.  hmm.  The Yellow Dog River in the western upper peninsula is a designated Wild and Scenic River.  It starts in a national wilderness area and flows through that area only a couple miles, and then flows the rest of its length through state lands, but still designated Wild and Scenic along its entire length.  are there exceptions? ——Muskie

Response:

There is a FEDERAL wild and scenic rivers act as well as individual state designations.  The state and federal designations may overlap, conflict or complement one another in a specific situation.  Most Wild and Scenic rivers involve several jurisdictions, ie. BLM, USFS, private landowners, BIA, NativeAmerican tribes, state owned lands. Under either designation (state or federal) developing a use plan is a very complex process involving an incredible balancing act among all the competing interests.  The plans for the Deschutes and Metolius in Oregon as an example have been going since the late 80s and some issues are not yet resolved.  You might contact Oregon Parks and Recreation(via the web) or the BLM (Prineville Office) for info or copies of plans.  Also the BLM or USFS in Idaho for the upper Snake river plan. I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land, they can’t regulate it. hmm.  The Yellow Dog River in the western upper peninsula is a designated Wild and Scenic River.  It starts in a national wilderness area and flows through that area only a couple miles, and then flows the rest of its length through state lands, but still designated Wild and Scenic along its entire length. are there exceptions? ——Muskie

Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                           Tom McGuane

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the | process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. | | Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of | this designation from the point of view of recreationists, | land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of | work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? | | Many thanks, | I am cross-posting this request to rec.boats.paddle newsgroup. This might be a potential source of contacts who have experience from which you might benefit.

Ooops… meant to say Colorado…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the | process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. | | Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of | this designation from the point of view of recreationists, | land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of | work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? | | Many thanks, | I am cross-posting this request to rec.boats.paddle newsgroup. This might be a potential source of contacts who have experience from which you might benefit. Big Sky…. as in Montana? What rivers? Know the East Glacier area…. Although I am also familiar with Great Falls, however, when going to Montana to play, Great Falls is not high on the list. Jeanne                                                                        

 I don’t KNOW, but see my responses above under "Elitism…" or the like.

Response:

I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of this designation from the point of view of recreationists, land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? Many thanks,

Response:

| I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the | process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. | | Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of | this designation from the point of view of recreationists, | land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of | work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? | | Many thanks, | I am cross-posting this request to rec.boats.paddle newsgroup. This might be a potential source of contacts who have experience from which you might benefit.

Response:

I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land, they can’t regulate it. — Brian D. Nelson, Missoula, Montana Montana Flyfishing and Hunting Outfitter http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm http://www.montana.com/dno/hunt.htm

Response:

I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic.

Here’s a starting point or two: http://www.sierraclub.org/ http://www.cwo.com/~trout/ Anglerboy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the | process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. | | Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of | this designation from the point of view of recreationists, | land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of | work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? | | Many thanks, | I am cross-posting this request to rec.boats.paddle newsgroup. This might be a potential source of contacts who have experience from which you might benefit.

Big Sky…. as in Montana?   What rivers?   Know the East Glacier area…. Although I am also familiar with Great Falls, however, when going to Montana to play, Great Falls is not high on the list. Jeanne

Response:

Question:

I am going to be in the Dominican Republic in the next month.  Has anyone heard of any fly fishing there, either fresh or salt water?  Any information would be appreciated.

Response:

I am going to be in the Dominican Republic in the next month.  Has anyone heard of any fly fishing there, either fresh or salt water?  Any information would be appreciated.

Chris, I lived in the DR for a couple of years back in the 60s. Can’t say there would be much freshwater flyfishing; it’d be dangerous in any case. The fresh water streams are infected with Bilharzia. The eastern end of the island has a nice relatively shallow bay, Samana, bordered on the north and south by the eastern ends of the Cordillera Septentrional and the Cordillera Central. It is (or was) a great area for scuba diving, and probably is for fishing, too. Good luck. I envy you, especially at this time of year. Luther

Response:

Thanks for the information.  By the way, what is Bilharzia?   It sounds like some kind of unpleasant parasite and doesn’t seem encouraging for any backcountry exploration.     – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going to be in the Dominican Republic in the next month.  Has anyone heard of any fly fishing there, either fresh or salt water?  Any information would be appreciated. Chris, I lived in the DR for a couple of years back in the 60s. Can’t say there would be much freshwater flyfishing; it’d be dangerous in any case. The fresh water streams are infected with Bilharzia. The eastern end of the island has a nice relatively shallow bay, Samana, bordered on the north and south by the eastern ends of the Cordillera Septentrional and the Cordillera Central. It is (or was) a great area for scuba diving, and probably is for fishing, too. Good luck. I envy you, especially at this time of year. Luther

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What bait should I use to catch rainbow trout in smaller rivers??? What test line would be a good choice to use for rainbow trout??? When I was in college at Westrern Carolina University at Cullowhee, NC we used to get a can of whole kernel corn.  Hook a kernel of corn on a #6 hook, and use 10 pound test line with one small buck shot sinker.   Don’t laugh; it works. — _____ *                    The Cantrells’                   * *       http://locals.onslowonline.net/~cantrell/     * *                  FAX:  910-938-7272                 * *                Coastal North Carolina               * *                        Zone 8                       *  

I do fishing in northern California in a place called Trinity Alps.  This place has nothing but streams and small rivers. I’ve always had luck using, as you mentioned, 10 pound test, #6 hook, but follow it up with a six foot leader, a small bobber, and a salmon egg.   Cast up stream and watch your bobber flow down stream, as it goes with the current, the egg takes a natral path.  The great part is, as the bobber flows past you, you can see when the fish hit on your bait by the bobber going down.  I like this kind of fishing because your not just sitting on your bum, you can walk up or down the river or stream for fish.

Response:

What bait should I use to catch rainbow trout in smaller rivers??? What test line would be a good choice to use for rainbow trout???

Response:

What bait should I use to catch rainbow trout in smaller rivers??? What test line would be a good choice to use for rainbow trout???

Depends on where you’re fishing, what their natural food base might be, what time of year and what size fish you’re pursuing. As far as live bait is concerned, I’ve caught rainbows in small rivers, on garden worms., meal worms, crickets, live salamander, salmon eggs, and the largest fish almost always on live shiners (minnows). Test line again kind of depends. For most rainbows stockie size and up you can go 2# 4# 6# depending how much excitement you want. If you’re going for real monsters, I guess you could go 8# and up. Since you can handle most rainbows within a reasonable size with the lighter lines, I think the more important factor to take into account is which line works best with your setup. Ken.H

Response:

What bait should I use to catch rainbow trout in smaller rivers??? What test line would be a good choice to use for rainbow trout???

When I was in college at Westrern Carolina University at Cullowhee, NC we used to get a can of whole kernel corn.  Hook a kernel of corn on a #6 hook, and use 10 pound test line with one small buck shot sinker.   Don’t laugh; it works. — _____ *                    The Cantrells’                   * *       http://locals.onslowonline.net/~cantrell/     * *                  FAX:  910-938-7272                 * *                Coastal North Carolina               * *                        Zone 8                       *  

Response:

try red worms they work every where i have fished in western part of new york state.i am using 8lb.trilene.fished close to the bottom in slow moving pools.use spitshot to control depth.

Response:

try red worms they work every where i have fished in western part of new york state.i am using 8lb.trilene.fished close to the bottom in slow – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What bait should I use to catch rainbow trout in smaller rivers??? What test line would be a good choice to use for rainbow trout???

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What bait should I use to catch rainbow trout in smaller rivers??? What test line would be a good choice to use for rainbow trout??? When I was in college at Westrern Carolina University at Cullowhee, NC we used to get a can of whole kernel corn.  Hook a kernel of corn on a #6 hook, and use 10 pound test line with one small buck shot sinker.   Don’t laugh; it works. — _____ *                    The Cantrells’                   * *       http://locals.onslowonline.net/~cantrell/     * *                  FAX:  910-938-7272                 * *                Coastal North Carolina               * *                        Zone 8                       *   In my neibourhood of Ontario we use Salmon eggs tied in a nylon sac fished

under a Blackbird float(pencil float if you can’t find them) My preferred way is to fly-fish using yarn flies and nymphs. Generally, use the lightest line possible for the water conditions. If the fish shy away from 10 pound test, go lighter until they don’t get spooked. I’ve had to go as light as 3.5 pound test in super clear,low water. good luck  Andy

Response:

Question:

Planning a Memorial Day Weekend trip to the Housatonic and have never fished the area.  Looking for help regarding spots and hatches.  Will be staying at Housatonic Meadows State park.   Thanks and Tight Lines! — MICHAEL DeVERE

Response:

Michael, From your campground at Housatonic Meadows North on Route 7 to the Covered Bridge in Cornwall is the entire Trout Management Area.  Anyplace you see a spot where you can squeeze in a car, on either side of the road,  will get you to the River.  Many people like the pool just below the covered bridge, but I have found the entire stretch excellent. The CT State Hatchery is stocking 9,000 Trout into this section on May 22.  This will add to an already abundant, but wise, population. Caddis Flys (Green, Black, Cream, Tan, Brown & Grey) seem to be big producers this week.  Also Caddis Emergers fished in the film are doing well. Look for Ephemerella Dorothea (Little Sulphur in about a size 16) to be hatching during your stay. Good luck. Greg Greg

Response:

Planning a Memorial Day Weekend trip to the Housatonic and have never fished the area.  Looking for help regarding spots and hatches.

The Housie has lots of hatches. Baetus, brown and green caddis (#14-16), maybe March Browns, Green and Brown Drakes if you’re lucky, are all likely to be present. Figuring out what the trout are working on is the biggest challenge. There are lots of trout, virtually all stocked fish, despite fishkills in recent years brought about by hot water and poor water management. River flows are controlled by releases from a power dam, which is operated on weekends primarily for the benefit of canoeists and kayakers. This generally means high water difficult to fish from 9AM to 5PM. One strategy is to fish the north end of the Trout Management Area (about a mile or so above the covered bridge and best accessed from the east side) early in the AM, and move downstream as the water there starts to rise between 8 and 8:30, ending up at the south end around 10 or 10:30, and repeat the trip in the late afternoon. The daily rise and fall of water flow tends to put the trout down during the transition. The Housie gets a lot of fishing pressure, but one can almost always find areas that are not crowded, and it offers a good variety of conditions, from fast pockets to smooth pools.  Check in with Phil at the Housatonic Meadows Fly Shop on Rte 7; take his recommendations with a grain of salt, but he does know the river.

Response:

There’s a fly shop right opposite the campgrounds with good info and excellent local ties although my recollection is that proprietor is a little close mouthed until your wallet becomes visible. A;lso call river club info number for daily updates by the most knowledgeable Ed Kluck who records report daily. 203 248 8616. Also water releases tape # is 203 824 7053. Note that it takes two hours for head of water to reach the campground from the time the release starts at dam at Falls Village.

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