Question:
"Living toys" are kept in aquariums. Wild game fish thrive in the rivers, lakes, estuaries and oceans of the world. Responsible human management of those fisheries includes a number of strategies, each intended to enhance a particular population of game. Among those strategies is mandated C&R. Woods Hole, MA USA
IMHO, C&R may be an extremely effective management tool but it is not the only, or most likely the best, way to protect/enhance the population. The best way would not include fishing. Unless there are too many fish, fishing will not help the population, C&R or C&K. Netting overpopulated areas would serve if there are too many fish. On the plus side, C&R lets fishermen catch as many fish as they want. C&R is the best management tool to protect the population and let anglers catch unlimited amounts of fish. Since no sane person would ban fishing, and anglers would rather catch more instead of less fish C&R is thriving. But…C&R is disrespectful to fish. No one can say catching a fish for your own enjoyment, with no intention of using it, is respectful to fish. Do fish deserve respect? Regards, Nicolo
Response:
IMHO, C&R may be an extremely effective management tool but it is not the only, or most likely the best, way to protect/enhance the population. The best way would not include fishing. Unless there are too many fish, fishing will not help the population, C&R or C&K.
I see what you mean, but my view is that fishing often _can_ help the population, in the following manner: when anglers have access to a thriving fishery, they naturally want to preserve and protect it. They become advocates for the fishery against all sorts of threats, such as pollution, or obstacles to anadromous fish passage. Anglers start to realize that spawning sites and juvenile habitat need to be protected, in order to have lots of adult fish to catch. And they start to see that overfishing, whether by sportsmen or commercial fishermen, will damage the good things that they now enjoy. The best way to protect/enhance a fish population would indeed not include fishing, _IF_ fishing were the only impact on the fish population. But there are typically many diverse impacts which must be addressed. Responsible anglers often contribute far more to a fishery through advocacy than they take from the fishery in dead fish. When the net result of angler-based advocacy is positive, then fishing truly helps the population. Where there is no advocacy… when no one cares enough about what happens to a fish population… then all too often various environmental impacts trigger a severe decline in the population. But…C&R is disrespectful to fish. No one can say catching a fish for your own enjoyment, with no intention of using it, is respectful to fish.
Well, I can say it. Indeed, I am glad to say that I often have no intention of "using" a fish. I am not always a consumer. I try to be a contributor. There are some places in the world which have wild fish, instead of stagnant pools, because I and others were advocates for those fisheries. When I catch one of these fish, and release it unharmed… then I do show respect, both for wild fish and for the efforts of those who protected the resource. Woods Hole, MA USA
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -This, however, is not what torments me…mortality studies and techniques for releasing fish are well published and taught in the first day of the Orvis brainwashing, er uh, flyfishing programs. What if all the fish survived, all the time. Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf. The fish becoming an unwilling participant, the golf ball, if you will. I can not imagine anything more disrespectful towards wilderness then this, with the possible exception of putting a silly hat and necktie on the head mount of a cinnamon brown bear. Our leaders in C&R flyfishing in Basalt, the famous Bill Fitzimmons of Taylor Creek Anglers has such an attrocity in his fly shop turned fern bar. The same people that tell me that C&R is respectful to the fish. No wonder I am confused. We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild. Shouldn’t we ? TimW
I don’t think the fish are ever a willing participant, Tim, but to me it is not necessarily the actual killing of the fish that differentiates the sport from golf. Rather, it’s the deception and following struggle, which certainly (at least from the fish’ view) bears the element of life and death regardless of whether I intend to keep and kill or not. There are, though, points at which for me the sport loses something. If the fish were to lose the fight/flight instinct and just passively swim to the bank in surrender, this would reduce the sport to more of a casting contest, and I would not like this. If we never killed a fish and wound up with a stunted, gullible population it would diminish my enjoyment. This is why I gave up fishing freestone headwaters where a 4" brookie will pound anything that hits the water (BTW they’re great eating!). Kept me full while camping, but was not overly challenging. If our behavior were to actually break the spirit of the fish we catch, then I would say ‘that’s enough’. That said, I’ve never seen a fish with a broken spirit. I grew up on and spent most of my life fishing the ocean, where pretty much everything you catch is migratory. It’s not like a pond where trout can almost become tame, every minute of these fish’s life is a fight for survival. I with my fly rod am just one more thing it has to deal with. A mackerel may bite me off today and wind up tuna chow in Fundy next month. So I see no real danger of breeding out the fight or flight instinct in this environment, at least as I have experienced it. What was wild still is. And yes, it is the element of life and death that keeps it wild, but the perspective that does so is the fish’s, not ours. So for me to believe that C&Ring is disrespect- ful I have to believe that the schoolie striper I hook is consciously thinking "Oh no problem this is a size one clouser. This guy will just release me anyway, ho hum." I think highly of stripers, but can’t stretch it that far. See Ya, jc
Response:
Everyone surely has an opinion about this, and here’s mine: If you never actually "kill" a fish (or at least tell yourself you don’t) then do you truly understand what you’re doing when you fish? Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This, however, is not what torments me…mortality studies and techniques for releasing fish are well published and taught in the first day of the Orvis brainwashing, er uh, flyfishing programs. What if all the fish survived, all the time. Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf. The fish becoming an unwilling participant, the golf ball, if you will. I can not imagine anything more disrespectful towards wilderness then this, with the possible exception of putting a silly hat and necktie on the head mount of a cinnamon brown bear. Our leaders in C&R flyfishing in Basalt, the famous Bill Fitzimmons of Taylor Creek Anglers has such an attrocity in his fly shop turned fern bar. The same people that tell me that C&R is respectful to the fish. No wonder I am confused. We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild. Shouldn’t we ? TimW
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ROFF, TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish. I’ve heard conflicting messages about releasing trout. For example, gently move the fish back and forth in the water to help revive it. After spending a day with a guide on the South Platee this year he said moving the fish back and forth can spook it and cause it to bolt from your grasp, only to travel just out of reach and turn belly up. Jeff Anderson BTW, as a side note, If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???
Hi Jeff, I usually try to release the fish while it’s still in the water. The Ketchum Release tool is fairly good for that or make a release tool of your own out of a short piece of 1/2" dowel and a coffee cup hook. Either way the fish is not removed from the water. If I get into a really big fish I get a couple of runs out of it and rather than stress the fish landing it I’ll throw a roll cast or two at it and often they will be release none the worse for the wear. Regarding the slot limit question: If I catch a fish, it’s damaged, and is within the slot limit, I release it — it’s the law. One of the things the guides I work with have started doing is avoid fishing with hook larger than #4. The larger hooks just cause too much damage, especially on smaller fish. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html
Response:
There is no way around harming a fish. Any aquarist knows how sensitive the fishes are with regards to stress induced by fright, temperature extremes, etc. They don’t always die right away, if at all, but they often will develop problems if handled poorly. Thus, out of respect, we do not ‘tap’ on the glass of an aquarium, out of respect. Even though it is a lot of fun and does not kill the fish. Do we still agree ?
A fisheries biologist and ecologist, for whom I’ve worked, has studied the destruction of riverine habitat in Brazil, from which a lot of the tropical fish that we keep in aquariums have been imported. These fish are torn from their native habitat, and species which occupy differing ecological niches are thrown together haphazardly in aquaria, merely to please human eyes. I think I could build a case to call these activities "C&I" – Catch and Imprison. And if I wanted to be tiresome I could lecture at great length upon the subject. Meanwhile, I practice C&R – catch and release. Like everyone else I’ve met who practices C&R, I occasionally kill and eat a few fish too, though never on mandated C&R waters. As I’ve said before, C&R is a management tool which works extremely well to preserve high-quality angling on _some_ waters with _some_ species. Some fisheries work well with total catch and release in a portion of a river, such as the little river on which I and others carried out a twenty-year environmental restoration ( This was private, volunteer effort and expense to enhance public water. We asked for nothing else from state government than permits to work in-stream, and a biologist to check our work to ensure that we did no harm. Thirteen years into the project, we asked for and received one more thing… C&R status for 1.25 miles of river that we thoroughly restored. It’s C&K above and below). Other fisheries work well with a mixture of mandated C&R and allowed C&K. I cite the provincial management of the Atlantic salmon fishery in New Brunswick, Canada, as a good example of this. Still other fisheries, such as a local, shallow pond where bluegills are the top predator, would almost certainly be well-managed as complete C&K fisheries. All three fisheries cited are wild fisheries. They need to managed differently to ensure healthy, wild populations of game fish. When anglers perceive that they have a stake in the success of the fishery (whether C&R or C&K), some of them become advocates to protect and enhance it. Thus the continuity of wild fisheries can be enhanced by responsible sportmen’s participation. It is our duty to treat the beasts with dignity and respect them for what they are, animals. With a distinct place and purpose on the food chain. Not living toys. We do not kick dogs, we do not chase deer to exhaustion and we should not practice pure C&R on a wild population of fish.
"Living toys" are kept in aquariums. Wild game fish thrive in the rivers, lakes, estuaries and oceans of the world. Responsible human management of those fisheries includes a number of strategies, each intended to enhance a particular population of game. Among those strategies is mandated C&R. Woods Hole, MA USA
Response:
[some deleted] although one of the things I have always enjoyed about fishing over hunting is that you _can_ put them back. Try rubber tipped arrows on large game ! What a Gas !!!! TimW Nice try but not relevant.
Uh, please…indulge me… uh, why isn’t it relevent ? Let’s say that in 1966 as a hunting management strategy, "shoot and release" was thought up by some simpleton in F&G. Turns out, shooting rubber tipped arrows at big game is one HELL of a lot of fun AND allowed those big bucks to sow their seeds for another year. Would this not be very close to C&R ? TimW
Response:
Let’s say that in 1966 as a hunting management strategy, "shoot and release" was thought up by some simpleton in F&G. Turns out, shooting rubber tipped arrows at big game is one HELL of a lot of fun AND allowed those big bucks to sow their seeds for another year. Would this not be very close to C&R ?
Sure, but I thought your point was that one shouldn’t fish unless they wanted to eat the fish. When I hunt I plan on eating what I shoot but that’s not always the case when I fish (not that I shoot fish of course<g). If we fish only for food they why bother with fly fishing, why not just use nets? Charlie…
Response:
[some deleted] although one of the things I have always enjoyed about fishing over hunting is that you _can_ put them back.
Try rubber tipped arrows on large game ! What a Gas !!!! TimW
Response:
[some deleted] although one of the things I have always enjoyed about fishing over hunting is that you _can_ put them back. Try rubber tipped arrows on large game ! What a Gas !!!! TimW
Nice try but not relevant. Charlie…
Response:
I assert my right to hunt and fish; I assert my right to kill or release; I only accept the absolute rule that this is done with respect for the population (which may mean mandatory C&R, catch limits, slot limits, or other management tools) and other sportsmen.
Well said. I saw a bumper sticker the other day: "BE AN ETHICAL SPORTSMAN, PRACTICE C&R" *this* dogma causes my dogma. TimW
Response:
We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild. Shouldn’t we ? TimW
First off Lon, what a great post. I really appreciate the effort to help me quantify somehow the ethics of harassing, hurting and killing a wild animal for pleasure only. You did an extremely admirable job. Unfortunately, for me, I have heard these arguments in the past. I have deleted some text, but hope that I preserved the context… I am not terribly familiar with aboriginal animism, but if I’m not mistaken, your position sounds kind of similar to the ethical view of animistic hunter cultures (note that I’m not saying that’s what it is or how it was derived). The idea that *not* killing the animal you pursue disrespects it, though I grasp the premise, still bewilders me.
To chase an animal, say a deer, to exhaustion on snowmobile purely for fun would be disrespectful of the animal. Do we agree ? To stalk the same deer and kill it for food and use of the hide would be to place it in its intended role in the food chain and give it the respect it deserves. Do we still agree ? That is, the deer is an animal and part of the food chain. If you have regard and respect for it (which I certainly believe I do), have gone out of your way not to intentionally harm it (i.e. retrieved as quickly as possible, used barbless hooks, released w/o touching, etc.), I hold that you have treated the animal with as much dignity and respect as possible for sport quarry.
There is no way around harming a fish. Any aquarist knows how sensitive the fishes are with regards to stress induced by fright, temperature extremes, etc. They don’t always die right away, if at all, but they often will develop problems if handled poorly. Thus, out of respect, we do not ‘tap’ on the glass of an aquarium, out of respect. Even though it is a lot of fun and does not kill the fish. Do we still agree ? Your viewpoint (I think) holds that the sport should not exist as sport only, that only the harvesting activity morally justifies one’s doing it. Sounds Native American (one strain of the animism that I noted) to me.
Well, that’s where I make my home my good friend. And I don’t quickly dismiss the ethics of a society that has dwelled here for more than 10000 years before christ. So, I guess that I do agree with you. Further I am ashamed at the actions of my ancestors for forcing the natives off the land as further evidence that we as a race can be pretty big dickheads. Emminent domain, my ass, but I digress. I would buy your view if we were living in a hunter / gatherer culture. Buying it otherwise I believe would mean that *everyone* who fished because they liked the sport but who was not doing it to put meat on the table should stop and do something else (like golfing) instead.
Yes, I am saying that. A fisherman should like to and eat fish. I feel that this is a basic tenet of the sport. We are diverging our opinions here. I posted the other day, "What will man’s interaction with nature become when all the world is a park ?". I am frightened by this thought, aren’t you ? It is not a world that I even want to live in nor would I wish it on my children or thiers. When I kill a wild animal for food, I feel connected with the world. I am part of the food chain and there is no point denying that. When we play with the fishes for sport, we do deny them their role on the food chain. In summary, a) I *think* I get your point, Tim, and b) I think it’s an ethical (life, world) view to hold, if you are a participant in a hunter / gatherer culture, one which would in that context define you and bind you to the wheel of life.
Yes, exactly our ideas merge again here. My points are: 1) that for all it’s coherence in a hunter / gatherer culture, it doesn’t make much sense to me (i.e. seems out of context) in a modern, polyglot, industrialized society; and 2) that even accepting your notion that the animal is being disrespected to some degree by being used as the object of sport only in C&R fishing, C&R can justified if by nothing else by the attendant preserving effect on the resource. It is simply a fact that there are too many fishers for existing fisheries.
There are not too many fishers for existing fisheries. This is the big lie. That is like saying there are too many hunters for the existing deer or bear population. No, we limit the hunters and place seasons and restrictions on the game as needed to preserve the numbers of animals available and to keep the herds healthy and viable. We are the humans. I beleive that we are different then the beasts and I believe that we have been tasked as the caretakers of the earth, second only to the humbling forces of nature and time. It is our duty to treat the beasts with dignity and respect them for what they are, animals. With a distinct place and purpose on the food chain. Not living toys. We do not kick dogs, we do not chase deer to exhaustion and we should not practice pure C&R on a wild population of fish. This last sentence is key. I feel that size/slot restrictions necessitating the release of too small or too large of a fish for the betterment of the fishery is an acceptable comprimise. Here is your chance to show respect… You can say, "I am sorry to have caught you little fish, I hope that you live" or "Go forth and multiply you beautiful animal, I do not want to eat your flesh". I can only leave this thought with the simple question that has no simple answer.. Why do we not cast our lines for other orders and families of animals. Lizards, snakes, chipmunks and squirrels, birds and bats, otters and ferrets. Why do we not ‘trap and release’ the larger animals if it is ok to do it with the fishes ? Clearly to hunt and kill all of the above is in my viewpoint of acceptable but I can not and will not tolerate wanton harassment of an animal just for fun. Hegel’s notion of philosophical argument and debate talked about the stages of thesis, antithesis and synthesis. For the few mos. that I’ve followed this debate in ROFF, I have not yet seen how it will ever get to the ’synthesis’ stage. There just seems to be no common ground.
I can never remember names or facts, but one discussion about the development of ethics discusses the possibility that doing something ‘because everyone else does’ is lower on the ethical scale then doing something ‘because it is universally accepted as right’. I can not simply subscribe to the notion that harassing and harming an animal for fun is right. Only that it seems like a lot of people are doing it. But, hey! Talking about it can be fun, right? 
Not only fun, but the way to the truth…please see.. http://www.ethics.ubc.ca/~chrismac/moral.decision.html Tight lines and, respective to forks, light tines –
Same to you my friend, TimW Fishing less these days and enjoying it more than I ever thought possible.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do??? Did you know that if you step on the middle of a 15 inch fish, it easily distorts longitudinally that additional inch. Just kidding men. Back to sports… TimW Is that any way to show the fish respect?!? Shame on you. Tsk Tsk tsk
NO ! It’s a way to make it an inch longer so my truck doesn’t get seized by the game warden that isn’t ever there, except when I’m caryying a fish 1/32 inch shy of being legal back to it. Never stretch a fish while it is still alive, that would be cruel and disrespectful. TimW
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish. This, however, is not what torments me…mortality studies and techniques for releasing fish are well published and taught in the first day of the Orvis brainwashing, er uh, flyfishing programs. What if all the fish survived, all the time. Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf. The fish becoming an unwilling participant, the golf ball, if you will. I can not imagine anything more disrespectful towards wilderness then this, with the possible exception of putting a silly hat and necktie on the head mount of a cinnamon brown bear. Our leaders in C&R flyfishing in Basalt, the famous Bill Fitzimmons of Taylor Creek Anglers has such an attrocity in his fly shop turned fern bar. The same people that tell me that C&R is respectful to the fish. No wonder I am confused. We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild. Shouldn’t we ? TimW
No doubt the philosophical argument will continue for decades (or at least as long as there are any rivers left which will support fish). Fishing is a blood sport, and the element of life and death must be maintained, but not necessarily exclusively. The mere fact that fish which have caught and properly released will come back on the feed in short order convinces me that they are not irreparably harmed by the process. This is also true in the long term, next day, week, month, or year. C&R in and of itself shows no respect for the fish, the only respect is shown when the release is done properly. For example, a fish removed from the hook and then thrown into the water is being shown no respect, it is being treated like an old boot. We have the power of life and death over animals for which we hunt or fish. An ethical hunter may sight in on a small, but legal, deer and then choose not to shoot it, the equivalent to C&R (properly done). Instilling fear in a wild animal (if the concept even exists in fish–with which I do not agree) occurs every time we walk about. Spook a deer, a duck, a partridge, and you have, by your choice to walk in the woods, paddle on a lake, or canoe a river, caused an animal to feel fear. I assert my right to hunt and fish; I assert my right to kill or release; I only accept the absolute rule that this is done with respect for the population (which may mean mandatory C&R, catch limits, slot limits, or other management tools) and other sportsmen. Paul Marriner
Response:
<snip Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf.
<snip In N.Georgia there are a number of stocked streams where a lot of people just follow the trucks around and ‘harvest’ fish to fill their freezers. Is this more sporting than C&R? I don’t really know. I do know some people who fish that don’t eat fish. This always seemed pointless to me until I went fishing for bones, permit and tarpon, which I don’t eat. I guess I just enjoy being there (fishing) too much to worry about the finer points, although one of the things I have always enjoyed about fishing over hunting is that you _can_ put them back. Not much of an answer, but my $.02 anyway. Charlie…
Response:
If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do??? Did you know that if you step on the middle of a 15 inch fish, it easily distorts longitudinally that additional inch. Just kidding men. Back to sports… TimW
Is that any way to show the fish respect?!? Shame on you. Tsk Tsk tsk Mike
Response:
We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild. Shouldn’t we ? TimW
I am not terribly familiar with aboriginal animism, but if I’m not mistaken, your position sounds kind of similar to the ethical view of animistic hunter cultures (note that I’m not saying that’s what it is or how it was derived). The idea that *not* killing the animal you pursue disrespects it, though I grasp the premise, still bewilders me. If you have regard and respect for it (which I certainly believe I do), have gone out of your way not to intentionally harm it (i.e. retrieved as quickly as possible, used barbless hooks, released w/o touching, etc.), I hold that you have treated the animal with as much dignity and respect as possible for sport quarry. Your viewpoint (I think) holds that the sport should not exist as sport only, that only the harvesting activity morally justifies one’s doing it. Sounds Native American (one strain of the animism that I noted) to me. I would buy your view if we were living in a hunter / gatherer culture. Buying it otherwise I believe would mean that *everyone* who fished because they liked the sport but who was not doing it to put meat on the table should stop and do something else (like golfing) instead. In summary, a) I *think* I get your point, Tim, and b) I think it’s an ethical (life, world) view to hold, if you are a participant in a hunter / gatherer culture, one which would in that context define you and bind you to the wheel of life. My points are: 1) that for all it’s coherence in a hunter / gatherer culture, it doesn’t make much sense to me (i.e. seems out of context) in a modern, polyglot, industrialized society; and 2) that even accepting your notion that the animal is being disrespected to some degree by being used as the object of sport only in C&R fishing, C&R can justified if by nothing else by the attendant preserving effect on the resource. It is simply a fact that there are too many fishers for existing fisheries. Hegel’s notion of philosophical argument and debate talked about the stages of thesis, antithesis and synthesis. For the few mos. that I’ve followed this debate in ROFF, I have not yet seen how it will ever get to the ’synthesis’ stage. There just seems to be no common ground. But, hey! Talking about it can be fun, right? Tight lines and, respective to forks, light tines – Lon Lon Hall Applied Intelligence Group, Inc. Fly Fisher and Cooking Enthusiast "Eat the rich. The poor are tough and stringy."
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tim Walker writes: What if all the fish survived, all the time. Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf. The fish becoming an unwilling participant, the golf ball, if you will. I can not imagine anything more disrespectful towards wilderness then this, with the possible exception of putting a silly hat and necktie on the head mount of a cinnamon brown bear. Our leaders in C&R flyfishing in Basalt, the famous Bill Fitzimmons of Taylor Creek Anglers has such an attrocity in his fly shop turned fern bar. The same people that tell me that C&R is respectful to the fish. No wonder I am confused. We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild. Shouldn’t we ? TimW
Tim, this is starting to haunt me. I think recognizing and appreciating that as hunters and fishermen we are involved in a dance of life and death is essential to respect the creatures we hunt and fish for. Many flyfishermen turn up their noses at bait guys….and think they are less refined and care less for their quarry than we the elite do. What a crock!!! A few years ago I was fishing some (well known) lakes during iceout in Montana. Huge rainbows come in for a false spawn along the shore. I remember this group of 4 guys with two guide s whooping and hollering catching fish….picking them up out of the water and holding them for minutes at a time while photos were taken……there were dead fish in the water all along the area they had been……After every photo they carefully released their quarry……. I’m afraid though that whether one fishes with bait or a fly, whether one C&R’s or knocks everything on the head, you will always have slobs. Some slobs wear Orvis and stomach pump every fish they catch…. other slobs use worms. The best fisherman I know is a (fairly well to do) friend of mine here in southern Wisconsin. He doesn’t know a Baetis from a Stonefly. His favorite "fly"? Chub Tails. He’s a god with a lightweight spinning outfit. Gary Borger wouldn’t stand a chance against him. When he catches a fish he gets it in quick….if he thinks he hurt it…he keeps it…..If the fish isn’t hurt it usually goes back in……he quits fishing when he’s got enough for dinner for he and his wife……he give a lot of money to wild life organizations….. I wish there were more like him…. jim bucklew madison, wisconsin
Response:
If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???
Did you know that if you step on the middle of a 15 inch fish, it easily distorts longitudinally that additional inch. Just kidding men. Back to sports… TimW
Response:
ROFF, TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish. I’ve heard conflicting messages about releasing trout. For example, gently move the fish back and forth in the water to help revive it. After spending a day with a guide on the South Platee this year he said moving the fish back and forth can spook it and cause it to bolt from your grasp, only to travel just out of reach and turn belly up. Jeff Anderson BTW, as a side note, If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???
Response:
If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do??? Did you know that if you step on the middle of a 15 inch fish, it easily distorts longitudinally that additional inch. Just kidding men. Back to sports… TimW
Did you see that? T-Bone’s karma just ran over his dogma. Mitch
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ROFF, TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish.
- Use an appropriately sized leader/tippet so you can bring the fish in quickly – Use barbless hooks to minimize any handling of the fish to get the hook out – Gently cradle the fish while still in the water, and with a good pair of hemostats kept at the ready you can usually turn the hook out quite easily. If you *have* to handle the fish, try to roll it out of the water on its back – the fish will usually remain still – and quickly extract the hook. Remember that every second that the fish is out of the water is damaging it’s gill structure (especially true with rainbows) – If the fish is showing any signs of stress (especially if the water temps are above 65F and/or after any lengthy fight) continue to cradle the fish gently in calm water at least a couple of feet deep until it’s recovered enough to swim with strength. Don’t stick the fish face first into rapids – that could actually drown it – and shallow water appears to unnerve fish from my experience – so don’t try to revive them while standing in 6" of water). – There’s rarely if ever any need to "swish" or "pump" the fish in the water. This is usually more disorienting than helpful, and requires significantly greater handling of the fish (which negatively affects the slime and can cause damage to internal organs). – Observe the fish to determine if it’s working it’s gills steadily (should be quite obvious) and keep cradling the fish until it swims away on its own (should be a *determined* effort on the fish’s part – don’t let it just float away as it could well turtle and drown). Use gentle persuasion (just curl your hands a bit) to keep the fish with you until you’re reasonably certain that the fish really wants to move on, then let it swim out of your opened hands. I’ve heard conflicting messages about releasing trout. For example, gently move the fish back and forth in the water to help revive it. After spending a day with a guide on the South Platee this year he said moving the fish back and forth can spook it and cause it to bolt from your grasp, only to travel just out of reach and turn belly up.
I completely agree with the guide. BTW, as a side note, If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???
The law is the law, and I’d have to let it go. If nothing else, you can be sure that it won’t be wasted. Either an osprey or heron or other bird will feed on it, or an otter or some other mammal will eat it, or the crawfish will enjoy it… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp. Alpha Server Engineering < < Parker Street Campus Maynard, Massachusetts < < Charter Member of "Curmudgeons Unlimited" < <<<<<<<<<<<< AMA 548313 <<<<<<<<<<<< Disclaimer: Opinion and content is mine alone, and unlikely to be shared by my employer, etc…
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ROFF, TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish. I’ve heard conflicting messages about releasing trout. For example, gently move the fish back and forth in the water to help revive it. After spending a day with a guide on the South Platee this year he said moving the fish back and forth can spook it and cause it to bolt from your grasp, only to travel just out of reach and turn belly up. Jeff Anderson BTW, as a side note, If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???
I catch a lot of fish that need to be returned, as I fish for stripers and our minimum size is 36" (in Me. anyways). Having caught thousands of sub legal stripers I’d have to guess that well over 95% of them wind up lip hooked, or sometimes in the roof of the mouth (esp. w/clousers), but easy to release cleanly. Now and then one will take the hook very deep, and though I cut the line and release it I’m not as optimistic about its survival. Thing is, if it dies it will just change its place in the food chain, its meat feeding crabs, lobsters, minnows which in turn will feed other stripers, so I don’t worry about it. I’ve heard some guys, grousing about the high limits, complaining what a waste it is that they have to return this fish because ‘it swallowed the hook and is going to die anyway’. These people would like to take the fish home instead of ‘wasting’ it. The problem with this is, having fished often with these guys, they would always find a way to deeply hook a fish, thus subverting the slot limit. I’ve seen guys fishing cut herring lip hook and cleanly release 20 fish in a row, but if this loophole were available they would simply hold back a minute before setting the hook, gut hook them and ‘have’ to keep them to prevent waste. IMO you’d see a lot of bait guys carrying off schoolie bass in this case. Better to try your best to cut the line fast, revive the fish as best as possible, and at worst case let it feed other fish than give those who would cheat an open door. jc
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TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish.
This, however, is not what torments me…mortality studies and techniques for releasing fish are well published and taught in the first day of the Orvis brainwashing, er uh, flyfishing programs. What if all the fish survived, all the time. Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf. The fish becoming an unwilling participant, the golf ball, if you will. I can not imagine anything more disrespectful towards wilderness then this, with the possible exception of putting a silly hat and necktie on the head mount of a cinnamon brown bear. Our leaders in C&R flyfishing in Basalt, the famous Bill Fitzimmons of Taylor Creek Anglers has such an attrocity in his fly shop turned fern bar. The same people that tell me that C&R is respectful to the fish. No wonder I am confused. We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild. Shouldn’t we ? TimW
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BTW, as a side note, If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???
Eat it. Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle Ltd. http://fishdoc.com./ "I’m the boss,so WHATEVER I say is OK"
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Question:
Hi – I’ll be going to visit folks in Sarasota area in late Feb. Thought I’d take 3 days or so to go to the Keys for FF’g. Any info would be appreciated, re: guides? gear? fish? patterns? I have a 9′ #8 rod , & a #8 line w/ sink tip. Adequate? As I don’t have any set destination in mind, I’m open to any suggestions, heading out of Sarasota. Thanks, Adam
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Hi – I’ll be going to visit folks in Sarasota area in late Feb. Thought I’d take 3 days or so to go to the Keys for FF’g. Any info would be appreciated, re:
Here is some old posts that I sent to another fellow planning a trip to the Keys in Feb. I probably need to work up a bonefish/keys FAQ… 
Have fun, and mail me if you have further questions… Alan Barrow km4ba | If a little knowledge….. As if Santa wasn’t good enough to me, I found out that I have business in Ft. Lauderdale in January. It looks like a two hour drive down to the end of the Florida peninsula according to my atlas, and I plan on scamming a couple of extra days to cast for bonefish.
I would allow a little extra time, it can take longer depending on traffic. The only way in or out of the keys is US-1, and it is mostly 2 lane for miles. (You can take card sound road for a nice alternate route coming back. About the same time, and you see a different part of N Key Largo.) I am a steelheader from Seattle who knows NOTHING< about bonefish except that my 8wt rpl will work, and the flies under the heading "bonefish" are small shrimpy weighted flies.
You ought to be ok, use as much of a WF line as you have. Make sure you have as much backing as your reel will hold. Nevertheless, the thought of ‘wading the flats’ wearing shorts in January is too much to resist for someone from latitude 47.
And you can do it, you just have to be a bit trickier during winter time. The bonefish are still there, they just will not come onto the flats until the water warms up. I would plan on fishing mid-day if the night time temp is below 70. The flats will be too cold in the AM, but will warm up. I am groveling for information! (fishing dates: Jan 14th – 16th)
Here are some posts I have made earlier. Not all will be relevant, but most info should be useful. I grew up down there, and spend 2-3 weeks a year flats fishing in the upper Keys. My brother works in Key Largo and Key West about half of the time, and he gets me current fishing reports. Both he and I have flats boats, and are into flyfishing for bonefish and tarpon. Have fun! Call me if you have questions… 404/850-2644 Alan Barrow km4ba | If a little knowledge….. Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing Some friends and I, serious fly fisherman all, are thinking about going to the Florida Keys to do some bonefishing (and maybe tarpon, permit, etc.) this winter. Never having done this before, I have scads of questions: * Is end of December/beginning of January a good time?
Bones are there year round. They will not come up onto the flats if the water temp is too cold. Also wind is more likely, and impacts the number of "fishable" (sight fishing) days. However, the largest bonefish are usually caught in winter. I have hooked (not landed) very big bonefish during XMAS trips last year. Tarpon migrate, and are not in the Keys in large quantities until May/June. There are year round Tarpon spots in the Keys ( and Miami) but it is usually deep water. (Bridges/channels, etc) I consider June/July the best time all around for fishing in the Keys. I still fish year all seasons, because even "off season" the fishing is better than most places I know. But for fly fisherman, winter may be less desirable. Redfish are available year round, as are sharks and barracudas. Many fly types are sight fishing for big ‘Cudas during winter when it the flats are too cold for bonefish. * Where are the good spots in the keys? Should we try Grand Bahama or Belize instead?
My conclusion is that if you want numbers and lot’s of action, hit the bahamas, Christmas Island (near Hawaii), or costa rica. However, If you want big fish on a regular basis, Miami down to Marathon for bonefish is hard to beat. For Tarpon, Boca Grande pass in June is fantastic. Not the same as sight fishing the flats edges for tarpon in the Keys, but killer in a different fashion. Tarpon are all around florida mid year, so there are many good places for them. The keys are ideal due to: Big Bonefish, good tarpon, great Permit, OK redfish, great trout, great dolphin close in (the fish). The water is great for sight fishing in the Keys. Other parts of Fla are less "clear". The Bahamas are tough to beat in water clarity. * Know any good guides/outfitters?
I have not used a guide for 3 years, but recommend using one until you become proficient in finding fish yourself. Even then, guides will put you onto more fish. * Will I need my own equipment or can I rent?
I have not seen much rental equipment. If you have a guide, he will provide top notch equipment. I hope you have a good time! Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing I will be on Islamorada from February 10-17 of this year. I plan to do some inshore fishing, and am wondering if this is a particularly "hot" time for specific fish. Can anyone give me some help? I’ll be
Entirely dependant on water temperature. (Wind may also be an issue) Some of the largest bonefish are caught in "winter" (dec-feb). You may also go all day without seeing a fish on a flat. A guide is a big win here. They may know when/where fish may make an appearence. We have found that "normal" behavior does not apply. (normal for bonefish is: fish move on flat with low incoming tide.) Problem is that with colder water temp, at may be midday before the water warms up enough. Thus traditional early morning/late evening "best times" may not apply. Barracuda are found (and fished for) on the flats in the winter. Any other time, these guys are almost impossible to catch. (Except when a big bonefish is about to nail your shrimp/lure) Also sharks on the flats can be fun. Tarpon are pretty much somewhere else, except for a few "bridge" types that hang around year round. Redfish and trout in the backcountry (Fla Bay, as opposed to the Atlantic) should also be a good option. (Not as exciting as bonefish, but still pretty good) I believe offshore is pretty good this time of year. (Sailfish, grouper, Kings, snapper, etc) out for a full day, and would like to spend about half the day fishing purely for sport (i.e. tarpon, bonefish, maybe permit) and half the day fishing for something I can cook up afterwards. Is this possible?
Bonefish or permit then hit backcountry for redfish or trout. I have limited out on big trout within 30 min skiff ride from Islamorada. (By the way, you will be "in" Islamorada, the city. You will be "on" upper or lower matacumbe. Just a "nit" :- ) Any suggestions would be appreciated. I’d like to call up and reserve a guide ahead of time.
We had good luck with Jamie Brodie, who booked out of Holiday Isle. I could get other names from Fla Sportsman if needed. Secondly, since I can’t afford a guide every day I’m there, but would like to do some fishing most of the days I’m there, I’m wondering if anyone can give me advice about wading/shore fishing. I’ll cast for
This is how we got started. Harry Harris park up in key largo (20 min N of Islamorada) is a good flat to wade for bonefish. Also flats off the bridges at shell and indian key ( Just S of Islamorada. ) are good. If you see brown bottom that you can get too from your hotel, etc. I would give it a try. Wear tennis shoes, or booties. (I use "aquasox" as well) Be aware of stingrays. (Some say to shuffle. I do if I cannot see the bottom very clearly. I have found if the bottom is hard enough to wade, the stingrays do not bury themselves. They are also very spooky, and will avoid you.) Also bridge fishing all along that area is good. You can also rent a boat. (not cheap, but cheaper than a guide.) Plan on using it mainly to get too flats. Do not try to take it on the flats, as you will get stuck unless it is very high tide. You will not have a pole anyway. Even with our flat’s boats, we wade alot. (during low tide) anything, I just don’t know what’s there to cast to, or what to cast to whatever is there (to state a simple point in a fairly unruly way).
On the flats you will see: stingrays- do not try to catch them. Look for bonefish/jack following them. try to cast on the back of any stingray you see. Many times you will not see the fish following them. Best sign that bonefish are on the flats. Stingrays are your friend. Bonefish- swim most in straight lines. best case is to find them tailing in low water. (why wading is good). You may see one or a dozen. Very spooky. Cast in front of them, let them swim up on your lure/bait. Permit- The most spooky. look for "sickle" fin sticking out of water. Baracuda- usually loitering around. Moving very slowly, then disappears faster than your eye can follow. If you see a fish, and it does not move 5-10 feet in a few seconds, then it is probably a barracuda. cast past it 10 feet in front of it. reel as fast as you can. They strike instinctively. Jack- Usually you do not see them, but catch them by accident. can get pretty big, fights almost as good as a bonefish. (Just missing the
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