Question:

Here is an interesting question. Lets say you pass your checkride, but the examiner fails his. Do you have to retake your checkride? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have my IFR checkride scheduled for April 21st… To make it even more exciting my CFII talked me into taking my ride with a DE that is getting his certification for giving instrument checkrides… So not only will he be there but a representative from the FAA will be riding along critiquing him…   Has anyone else had any checkride experiences along these lines? Or, can anyone give relay some interesting checkride experiences to take the edge off my nervousness… Really the nerves haven’t hit yet and I figure that the worst thing that will happen is that I’d bust some portion and have to retake it… Holding pattern entries would be my guess… Any input would be appreciated. Thanks. Jon Kraus PP-ASEL Student-IA  (hopefully not for long)

Response:

Cecil, I don’t know that I can completely agree with you, I’ve heard the issue about hold practice, from grey haired CFI’s and regular G.A. pilots,,,, they all seem to say the same thing about holds.

Well, it’s definitely a YMMV thing.  Also, it depends when and where you fly. I know what you are saying, but realistically, how many times have have you been asked to hold at a towered airport because traffic load was so prohibitive.

Firstly, that’s just one of many scenarios for being asked/told to hold.  To answer your question, I don’t know.  Definitely more than zero, but not that often.  I’ve been asked to hold flying into Arcata, was given a hold out near Modesto, have held at Tracy for the LVK ILS 25R as well as at MARNA down near MRY.  More often though I get a ‘visual hold’ or a ‘vector hold’. There are some approaches that start with a turn in the hold – check out Napa – given direct SGD at 4000′ cleared for the approach – you basically fly the hold. Hilton

Response:

Be the plane…. be the plane… be the plane…   OK got it… Thanks…. JK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good luck John.  Be the plane man, be the plane…

Response:

Hi Allen, When I took my multi-engine check ride my boss was getting his DE authority also.  The FAA Inspector from Albuquerque, NM was also training two new inspectors.  There were five of us in a Piper Navajo on a July day in NM. Talk about "sweating" it out. P.S.  We all passed!

Wow that must have given the examiner(s) an opportunity to really test the single engine climb performance!  They probably all had white knuckles by the time you landed… I’m now hoping I don’t get an extra person on board the Seminole when it comes to taking the Multi addon, the performance is marginal at best! Best wishes, Richard Thomas CP-ASEL IA Student AMEL

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know that I can completely agree with you, I’ve heard the issue about hold practice, from grey haired CFI’s and regular G.A. pilots,,,, they all seem to say the same thing about holds. I know what you are saying, but realistically, how many times have have you been asked to hold at a towered airport because traffic load was so prohibitive.  I’ve only been flying since 2000, but in my personal flying I’ve only ever been asked to hold because of traffic, once!,,, EVER… Yep,,, missed approach holds,,, okay maybe there…  but I don’t think most of us are going to be flying anywhere near to minimums and will be able to make the runway just fine on the first try, since most of us are REALLY REALLY good :-.  Okay,,,  kind of kidding,,,, I know that we are supposed to handle missed approaches as if they are the norm and a landing on the first try as unexpected…. yada yada yada….

I have had scandalously few hours in the system since I passed my checkride, and I’ve had to hold on approach twice. Once approaching Arlington when the controller was trying to ensure that the predecessor, who had actually – gasp – landed, had closed. And once at Paine when the controller had, at a guess, been a little optimistic about sequencing. Surely the first problem illustrates that it’s going to be more likely to happen at an untowered field because by then you’re on advisories and off radar? It doesn’t have to be a busy hub. Remember to check if there’s a specific frequency for closing the plan at an untowered field (e.g. one local airport with ILS and scheduled airline traffic uses the CD frequency, but that’s not clearly stated on the plate). — David Brooks

Response:

My soon to be DE who flys for ATA told me he has only been told to hold 4 times in his entire career… Maybe the big boys don’t get holds as much as us little guys…  JK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know that I can completely agree with you, I’ve heard the issue about hold practice, from grey haired CFI’s and regular G.A. pilots,,,, they all seem to say the same thing about holds. I know what you are saying, but realistically, how many times have have you been asked to hold at a towered airport because traffic load was so prohibitive.  I’ve only been flying since 2000, but in my personal flying I’ve only ever been asked to hold because of traffic, once!,,, EVER… Yep,,, missed approach holds,,, okay maybe there…  but I don’t think most of us are going to be flying anywhere near to minimums and will be able to make the runway just fine on the first try, since most of us are REALLY REALLY good :-.  Okay,,,  kind of kidding,,,, I know that we are supposed to handle missed approaches as if they are the norm and a landing on the first try as unexpected…. yada yada yada….

Response:

I don’t know that I can completely agree with you, I’ve heard the issue about hold practice, from grey haired CFI’s and regular G.A. pilots,,,, they all seem to say the same thing about holds. I know what you are saying, but realistically, how many times have have you been asked to hold at a towered airport because traffic load was so prohibitive.  I’ve only been flying since 2000, but in my personal flying I’ve only ever been asked to hold because of traffic, once!,,, EVER… Yep,,, missed approach holds,,, okay maybe there…  but I don’t think most of us are going to be flying anywhere near to minimums and will be able to make the runway just fine on the first try, since most of us are REALLY REALLY good :-.  Okay,,,  kind of kidding,,,, I know that we are supposed to handle missed approaches as if they are the norm and a landing on the first try as unexpected…. yada yada yada…. — — =—– Good Flights! Cecil PP-ASEL Student-IASEL Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond! Complete with pictures and text at:  www.bayareapilot.com "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." – Antoine de Saint-Exupery – "We who fly, do so for the love of flying.  We are alive in the air with this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet" – Cecil Day Lewis – – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – experience. Hilton

Response:

Cecil, I have to admit that I am going to have to woodshed a little more on holding patterns.  Such an irony, that the very thing we will be tested on in the practical (i.e., holding patterns) represents something that we may never be asked to do in our entire flying career.

I’m sure other IFR pilots, and perhaps your CFI, have told you this – it simply is not true.  I have been given numerous holds by ATC here in the Bay Area (where you are).  Also, many approaches have a hold as part of their misssed approach.  As yourself what happens if you lose comms.  I remember hearing NorCal giving a military pilot a hold and ATC had to literally describe to the pilot how to fly it (over PYE if I remember correctly) – I was amazed. Moreover, if you go into the exercise of learning holds with the thought that you’ll never use them, you probably won’t maximize the learning experience. Hilton

Response:

Good luck John.  Be the plane man, be the plane… — Jack Allison PP-ASEL "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return"  - Leonardo Da Vinci

Response:

Here is an interesting question. Lets say you pass your checkride, but the examiner fails his. Do you have to retake your checkride?

No.

Response:

I have my IFR checkride scheduled for April 21st… To make it even more exciting my CFII talked me into taking my ride with a DE that is getting his certification for giving instrument checkrides… So not only will he be there but a representative from the FAA will be riding along critiquing him…   Has anyone else had any checkride experiences along these lines? Or, can anyone give relay some interesting checkride experiences to take the edge off my nervousness… Really the nerves haven’t hit yet and I figure that the worst thing that will happen is that I’d bust some portion and have to retake it… Holding pattern entries would be my guess… Any input would be appreciated. Thanks. Jon Kraus PP-ASEL Student-IA  (hopefully not for long)

When I took my multi-engine check ride my boss was getting his DE authority also.  The FAA Inspector from Albuquerque, NM was also training two new inspectors.  There were five of us in a Piper Navajo on a July day in NM. Talk about "sweating" it out. You are going about it with the right attitude.  Give it the best you’ve got and you’ll do fine. P.S.  We all passed! Allen Smith

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Thanks Cecil…. I expect you to finish up before me and give me some pointers.  :-)   JK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jon Kraus PP-ASEL Student-IA  (hopefully not for long) Have a great ride, Jon!  As is often said, your instructor wouldn’t release you for the checkride unless you were ready. I look forward to seeing your ’signature’ changing, after April 21. I have to admit that I am going to have to woodshed a little more on holding patterns.  Such an irony, that the very thing we will be tested on in the practical (i.e., holding patterns) represents something that we may never be asked to do in our entire flying career.  I think I have the pattern entry process, down, though (OnTop has helped me quite a lot with conceptualizing the entries).  Though occasionally I’ve done the ‘wrong’ entry, so to speak, during moments of IFR training induced ‘brain-fog’ As for the nervousness,,, I don’t know what to tell you other than to do something relaxing the day before (unrelated to flying).  If you can,, take the day off and take in a good matinee at the movies (with an extra helping of popcorn and root beer <g) or if you fish, take in a day of fishing. You’ll be fine, come April 21! Look forward to your post-checkride story,,,, really, you’re going to find that you will do just fine!

Response:

Jon Kraus PP-ASEL Student-IA  (hopefully not for long)

Have a great ride, Jon!  As is often said, your instructor wouldn’t release you for the checkride unless you were ready. I look forward to seeing your ’signature’ changing, after April 21. I have to admit that I am going to have to woodshed a little more on holding patterns.  Such an irony, that the very thing we will be tested on in the practical (i.e., holding patterns) represents something that we may never be asked to do in our entire flying career.  I think I have the pattern entry process, down, though (OnTop has helped me quite a lot with conceptualizing the entries).  Though occasionally I’ve done the ‘wrong’ entry, so to speak, during moments of IFR training induced ‘brain-fog’ As for the nervousness,,, I don’t know what to tell you other than to do something relaxing the day before (unrelated to flying).  If you can,, take the day off and take in a good matinee at the movies (with an extra helping of popcorn and root beer <g) or if you fish, take in a day of fishing. You’ll be fine, come April 21! Look forward to your post-checkride story,,,, really, you’re going to find that you will do just fine! — — =—– Good Flights! Cecil PP-ASEL Student-IASEL Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond! Complete with pictures and text at:  www.bayareapilot.com "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." – Antoine de Saint-Exupery – "We who fly, do so for the love of flying.  We are alive in the air with this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet" – Cecil Day Lewis – – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Or, can anyone give relay some interesting checkride experiences to take the edge off my nervousness…

It was November 2001.  The WTC wreckage was still strewn across lower Manhattan and the Pentagon construction crews were starting their own herculean rebuilding effort while many citizens were still wary of aircraft sounds in the skies.  The Powers That Be had just recently implemented the DC ADIZ and all the local pilots were well aware that the circular contrails above the city were created by aircraft not displaying civilian livery. I scheduled my checkride to fly out of Frederick, MD (KFDK) but that meant I had to get my plane from Leesburg, VA (KJYO) to FDK.  At the time of my checkride, all flights in the ADIZ had to be on IFR plans so I had to convince my instructor to tag along so we could fly IFR on his ticket. We get to FDK without incident, meet the DE and she begins reviewing the documentation.  Aircraft logs check out OK and she reviews my logbook.  "So you flew to Elizabeth City, NC for your long XC?"  Yes.  "I don’t see an instructor sign-off."  Uh-oh. I had gotten an interpretation from AOPA that an instructor was not required for that flight.  They were wrong.  As the DE put it, "You should have asked the FAA."  OK, what are my options?  It turned out that her afternoon appointment had cancelled (perhaps due to ADIZ restrictions) and she was willing to give me the checkride in the afternoon *IF* I could get the long XC done that day. I call the office and let them know I need to take the rest of the day off and they graciously agreed.  Meanwhile, my instructor (who I begged to check) also was able to get the day off from his day job. We planned and flew a XC from FDK to Hot Springs, VA (KHSP) – a very cool mountain-top airport for those interested – with a secondary stop at Shenandoah (KSHD).  While waiting for fuel at SHD, I called and confirmed with the DE that we would be back in FDK that day, but that daylight would be fast receding by the time we got there.  She normally doesn’t conduct checkrides at night, but she suggested I get back to FDK as quickly as possible. We kept the squirrels under the cowl of the 172 running as fast as the whip could get them and we arrived back at FDK with about 25 minutes of daylight left.  My instructor signed off the logbook and the DE began the oral portion of the checkride. Everything went well and we went to the plane where I performed the pre-flight by flashlight.  Luckily, I was still night current and we took off for the practical test. We went through the usual assortment of tasks – steep turns, DME arc, VOR approach, tracking radials, etc. – and ended up shooting the ILS back to FDK.  She let me know that I’d "broken out" and could remove the hood and proceeded to inform me that as long as I could land and park the plane, I’d received my instrument rating.  Even with that added pressure, I was able to fly a near-perfect glideslope followed by a chirp-chirp…chirp landing that any instructor would be proud of. We went inside where the DE filled out my temporary certificate and I filed my very first IFR plan where I was to be PIC – just to get home to JYO. After all was said and done, I performed the first pre-flight of the day before 8am and tied down after 7pm.  In between, I logged 1.1 hours for the trip to/from JYO-FDK, 4.1 hours for the long XC, and another 1.3 for the practical test (6.5 hours of flight time) on top of the oral exam. It was a long day. Let this be a lesson for all:  Take your instructor on the long XC flight! Really the nerves haven’t hit yet and I figure that the worst thing that will happen is that I’d bust some portion and have to retake it… Holding pattern entries would be my guess…

Good attitude.  Try to stay calm.  Remember that your instructor wouldn’t send you up (hopefully) unless he thought you were ready. — John T http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415

Response:

Or, can anyone give relay some interesting checkride experiences to take the edge off my nervousness…

My instrument checkride was not atypical so I don’t have any over-the-top experiences to offer.  I did, however, forget the acronym MEA when the DE pointed to it on the en route chart and asked what the number represented.   After he answered his own question, I apologized for the legitimate brain fart.  This DE is also a CFII (not mine) and a very easy person with whom to converse, so overall the test was very comfortable for me.   However, in regards to the nervousness, I have two suggestions.  The first is to really enjoy and interact with the DE during the oral exam.  Ask him about his experiences.  Take the opportunity to let him/her teach you, as well as the more obvious part about him/her testing you.   The more you informally interact with him/her, the more you should realize that he is just a more experienced pilot who wants to be sure you will be a safe pilot, especially with a rating that can be inherently more lethal. Secondly, I found it reassuring that I absolutely did not want to pass the instrument checkride if I was not a safe instrument pilot.  I am not on any fast track to some airline job, so slamming out ratings like the passing of   mile markers on a super highway was not my goal.  Carrying my precious cargo of my wife and two little boys as safely as possible was (and is still) my goal.  This may be obvious, but the point of passing is not to pass, but to demonstrate some level of proficiency. With that in mind, I gave the DE a quick speech at the beginning of my oral exam stating that I expected him to withhold the rating if I was not safe in his eyes.  By doing this, I accomplished two things.  First, it relaxed me because it reminded me of the real purpose of the checkride.  Secondly, it demonstrated to the DE what my sincere goal was if I did pass the checkride. Remember that your CFII would not have endorsed your logbook if s/he felt you were not ready.  Fly like it is your CFII in the right seat, and you should do very well.   Looking forward to reading your post-instrument checkride report. — Peter —-== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups —= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers – Total Privacy via Encryption =—

Response:

I have my IFR checkride scheduled for April 21st… To make it even more exciting my CFII talked me into taking my ride with a DE that is getting his certification for giving instrument checkrides… So not only will he be there but a representative from the FAA will be riding along critiquing him…   Has anyone else had any checkride experiences along these lines? Or, can anyone give relay some interesting checkride experiences to take the edge off my nervousness… Really the nerves haven’t hit yet and I figure that the worst thing that will happen is that I’d bust some portion and have to retake it… Holding pattern entries would be my guess… Any input would be appreciated. Thanks. Jon Kraus PP-ASEL Student-IA  (hopefully not for long)

Response:

Question:

"Old friends can wade a trout stream together or walk a woodland cover and not encounter just the fish or game of that day, but also the memories of other days and other places. They’ve taken the bitter with the better and found it all rewarding."     -Lee Wulff, Outdoor Life I stumbled across this today and thought others might enjoy it. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

"Old friends can wade a trout stream together or walk a woodland cover and not encounter just the fish or game of that day, but also the memories of other days and other places. They’ve taken the bitter with the better and found it all rewarding."     -Lee Wulff, Outdoor Life I stumbled across this today and thought others might enjoy it.

Too nice to snip, thanks George. At the risk of sounding maudlin, this describes to a T recent forays into the Blue Ridge with the NC boyos met on ROFF. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

"Old friends can wade a trout stream together or walk a woodland cover and not encounter just the fish or game of that day, but also the memories of other days and other places. They’ve taken the bitter with the better and found it all rewarding."     -Lee Wulff, Outdoor Life I stumbled across this today and thought others might enjoy it.

It reminds me of an episode of Star Trek (TNG) where a race of beings that communicated only by referring to other events in the past tense. "How was your trip?" "Warren and Bruiser on the Beaverhead!" ("I fished with streamers hard all day, and as usual I got skunked.") "Miller and LaCourse on the Rapid River!" ("I ran into a friend of mine, but I didn’t recognize him at first because he wasn’t attached to a stimulator.  My girlfriend caught a bigger trout than me on her second ever fly fishing attempt.") "Zimbo and Waldo at Elk River!" ("I fished with a nice gentleman and caught some nice fish, but unfortunately my reel fell into the river.  Also, I left my waders wadded up in a ball in the trunk of my car, and they now smell like shit."  (respectively) )

Response:

….eight beats to the bar…… john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Old friends can wade a trout stream together or walk a woodland cover and not encounter just the fish or game of that day, but also the memories of other days and other places. They’ve taken the bitter with the better and found it all rewarding."     -Lee Wulff, Outdoor Life I stumbled across this today and thought others might enjoy it. It reminds me of an episode of Star Trek (TNG) where a race of beings that communicated only by referring to other events in the past tense. "How was your trip?" "Warren and Bruiser on the Beaverhead!" ("I fished with streamers hard all day, and as usual I got skunked.") "Miller and LaCourse on the Rapid River!" ("I ran into a friend of mine, but I didn’t recognize him at first because he wasn’t attached to a stimulator.  My girlfriend caught a bigger trout than me on her second ever fly fishing attempt.") "Zimbo and Waldo at Elk River!" ("I fished with a nice gentleman and caught some nice fish, but unfortunately my reel fell into the river.  Also, I left my waders wadded up in a ball in the trunk of my car, and they now smell like shit."  (respectively) )

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Question:

I am looking into getting a rainproof wading jacket. What is everyone using and how do you like it? — // Dan in Old Town, Maine \

I purchased an L. L. Bean gortex wading jacket with the neoprene cuffs, handwarmer pockets, etc.  several years ago for a trip to Ireland.  I recommend it highly!  The price was not bad and the features are great. Tight Lines, Mike.

Response:

I am looking into getting a rainproof wading jacket. What is everyone using and how do you like it? I want to have several options: leak proof sleeve cuffs (neoprene or something) adjustable waist, several pockets on outside and inside, adjustable hood, ability to get into vest inside without opening jacket, hand warming pockets. Does one exist ?? I have seen Cabela’s, LL Bean’s and Streamline’s. What else is out there ? I like Cabela’s price but Bean’s features. What do you say ??

I have a Cabella’s Gore-Tex and it works fine.  I fished for 6 hours in a cold rain in mid may and it kept me completly dry. MikeH

Response:

I am looking into getting a rainproof wading jacket. What is everyone using and how do you like it?

Hi Dan, I’ve got the Orvis No-Sweat Wading jacket and I like it!  It’s made out of the same stuff the Orvis No-Sweat waders are.  The outer fabric is brushed microfiber, the inside is mesh.  Comes in a sage green color.   The hood is adjustable for length, allows peripheral vision, has a good bill, allows you to tighten it up close or loosen it and the hood turns when you turn.  No more looking into the side of the hood when you turn your head. It has adjustable wrist seals and a drawstring waist that you can tighten from inside the hand-warmer pockets which are located behind the two large outer pockets.  D-ring on back for your net.  The whole jacket will stuff into the front right pocket.  Hang it up, or put it right on, and the wrinkles fall right out of it in a few minutes. I used it in the salt for the first time about two weeks ago and it worked great. Hiked around a bunch in it and stayed comfy.   I did get wet inside the jacket once because I didn’t seal the waist with the drawstring and a wave hit me and scooted up the inside (brrrrr).  Only did that once, learned my leasson real quick.   Real happy with it so far.  Price is $195, though the Orvis company stores have it on sale right now for ~ $156.  Don’t know how long that lower price will be good – real unusual to have Orvis fishing equipment on sale this time of year.                                     Hope this helps,                                           Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

Response:

I am looking into getting a rainproof wading jacket. What is everyone using and how do you like it? I want to have several options: leak proof sleeve cuffs (neoprene or something) adjustable waist, several pockets on outside and inside, adjustable hood, ability to get into vest inside without opening jacket, hand warming pockets. Does one exist ?? I have seen Cabela’s, LL Bean’s and Streamline’s. What else is out there ? I like Cabela’s price but Bean’s features. What do you say ?? — // Dan in Old Town, Maine \

Response:

I am looking into getting a rainproof wading jacket. What is everyone using and how do you like it? I want to have several options: leak proof sleeve cuffs (neoprene or something) adjustable waist, several pockets on outside and inside, adjustable hood, ability to get into vest inside without opening jacket, hand warming pockets. Does one exist ?? I have seen Cabela’s, LL Bean’s and Streamline’s. What else is out there ? I like Cabela’s price but Bean’s features. What do you say ?? — // Dan in Old Town, Maine \

I’ve been wearing the Streamline and I’m relatively pleased with it. The fit is good, front pockets could be a little higher, hood is good, and is cut large enough for casting, stretching, etc. — Best regards, Dave Visit Dave Teffeteller’s Fly Fishing Guides Home Page http://www.olfart.com

Response:

I love Filson stuff It will last you a life time of that I’m sure. yes it would be some what heavy, I would like to have a Filson if I was fishing in alot of brush you would be hard pressed to tear it. I wouldn’t think a lite weight jacket would live up to much over time. Now I do know a guy that has both one a Filson and a Simms gortex, The lite weight one will pack up in to a smaller size. As for the one that will work for you I’m sure that will depend on how and where you fish. For me it would be the Filson If I’m going to spend that much for a jacket I want it to last. Eric

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m in the process of choosing between the wilson creek or filson wading jacket, has anyone used either. If so could you let me know what you think of them. — Tim Apple

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I’m in the process of choosing between the wilson creek or filson wading jacket, has anyone used either. If so could you let me know what you think of them. — Tim Apple

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I don’t have either of the wading jackets that you mentioned, but I can attest to the quality of the Filson product line. I have a couple of their luggage bags and I extensively use their rod and reel travel bag. I carry three reels, two fly boxes and two rod tubes in the travel bag all of the time. I have never had a problem with the Filson products in the years that I’ve used them. Now that you’ve remined me that they have a wading jacket, I have something to put on my wish list from Santa. Ryan -who lives a few miles from their factory in Seattle.

Response:

I’m in the process of choosing between the wilson creek or filson wading jacket, has anyone used either. If so could you let me know what you think of them.

I’ve got the Filson jacket and it’s as Ryan says below — their stuff is pretty much bulletproof. However, you should also keep in mind that their gear kicks it old-school (as flyfishing rappers like to say). Which is to say that even though their wading jacket is very tough and pretty much impregnable to rain, it breathes about as well as Darth Vader. You’ll end up sweating a lot and then getting chilled because of it since the sweat has nowhere to go. That’s my experience anyway. Keeping it real, – Sid

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I like filson stuff, but it tends to be heavy…I’ve abandoned my Filson vest for a Simms vest I’m much happier with…for camping though, I use their tin pants and an oil cloth jacket as well and I love them.  If I were buying a wading jacket today, I would go light-weight. Eugene Knapik Toronto

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m in the process of choosing between the wilson creek or filson wading jacket, has anyone used either. If so could you let me know what you think of them. I’ve got the Filson jacket and it’s as Ryan says below — their stuff is pretty much bulletproof. However, you should also keep in mind that their gear kicks it old-school (as flyfishing rappers like to say). Which is to say that even though their wading jacket is very tough and pretty much impregnable to rain, it breathes about as well as Darth Vader. You’ll end up sweating a lot and then getting chilled because of it since the sweat has nowhere to go. That’s my experience anyway. Keeping it real, – Sid

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Hi, I have a Filson Cruiser which I have bought sometime in the late 1960’s. Based on my experience with the wool jacket, a great product, I later bought a Filson fishing hat.  The hat however was totally unacceptable and I threw it out.  It was made of oiled canvas and I found it to be much too heavy and much too hot.  I am not familiar with the wading jacket but if it is made of the same material, I would think twice about buying it. Best regards, Yuji Sakuma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m in the process of choosing between the wilson creek or filson wading jacket, has anyone used either. If so could you let me know what you think of them. — Tim Apple

Response:

Question:

Anyone out there keen to start a Newsgroup for discussion on rod building & repairs, lure making, fly tying, etc etc? Please e-mail me if interested. Ron Looi

Response:

Ron;    There are is a Rod Builders News Letter and a Rod Builders Chat group. If you are interested just search for rod builders. Ernie Harrison See Ernie’s Fly-Fishing Stuff:   http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone out there keen to start a Newsgroup for discussion on rod building & repairs, lure making, fly tying, etc etc? Please e-mail me if interested. Ron Looi

Response:

What is the newsletter address? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ron;   There are is a Rod Builders News Letter and a Rod Builders Chat group. If you are interested just search for rod builders. Ernie Harrison See Ernie’s Fly-Fishing Stuff:   http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2 Anyone out there keen to start a Newsgroup for discussion on rod building & repairs, lure making, fly tying, etc etc? Please e-mail me if interested. Ron Looi

There’s a fine line between fishing and standing on the shore like an idiot." – Steven Wright

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Gee, I have searched for rod builders, but seem to find our site at the head of the list.I would be interested in an NG for,about & by rodbuilders. — The RodMaker http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2865

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ron;    There are is a Rod Builders News Letter and a Rod Builders Chat group. If you are interested just search for rod builders. Ernie Harrison See Ernie’s Fly-Fishing Stuff:   http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2 Anyone out there keen to start a Newsgroup for discussion on rod building & repairs, lure making, fly tying, etc etc? Please e-mail me if interested. Ron Looi

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Preciate that Bob, You may rest assured that I will always be skulking in the shadows of R.O.F.B. — The RodMaker http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2865

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, Rodmaker, hope you don’t find what you are looking for.  Sure would miss your posts here! — Go fishing. And may your fish be as big as your tales! Gee, I have searched for rod builders, but seem to find our site at the head of the list.I would be interested in an NG for,about & by rodbuilders. — The RodMaker http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2865 Ron;    There are is a Rod Builders News Letter and a Rod Builders Chat group. If you are interested just search for rod builders. Ernie Harrison See Ernie’s Fly-Fishing Stuff:   http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2 Anyone out there keen to start a Newsgroup for discussion on rod building & repairs, lure making, fly tying, etc etc? Please e-mail me if interested. Ron Looi

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Hey, Rodmaker, hope you don’t find what you are looking for.  Sure would miss your posts here! — Go fishing. And may your fish be as big as your tales! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gee, I have searched for rod builders, but seem to find our site at the head of the list.I would be interested in an NG for,about & by rodbuilders. — The RodMaker http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2865 Ron;    There are is a Rod Builders News Letter and a Rod Builders Chat group. If you are interested just search for rod builders. Ernie Harrison See Ernie’s Fly-Fishing Stuff:   http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2 Anyone out there keen to start a Newsgroup for discussion on rod building & repairs, lure making, fly tying, etc etc? Please e-mail me if interested. Ron Looi

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Question:

What size tippet are you using, and what knot are you using to tie on your fly?  I fish for bass and panfish with a 5X tippet and do fine (bluegill up to maybe 6 inches, bass to about 15 inches).  Used to lose a lot of flies before I switched from an improved clinch knot to a Duncan loop/Uniknot – since then I haven’t had problems with losing flies.  Hope this helps. — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Help, I am an intermediate fly fisherman who is used to catching pan fish.  Lately I have been doing a little better but am having trouble sacrificing my fly  to the God of fish.  Is there a good techniqe out there for running drag on a fairly light rig when catching a big fish.  I have been using the palm of my right hand to self adjust the drag once the fish is on but seem to have a heavy touch.  Any advice? thanks.

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Help, I am an intermediate fly fisherman who is used to catching pan fish.  Lately I have been doing a little better but am having trouble sacrificing my fly  to the God of fish.  Is there a good techniqe out there for running drag on a fairly light rig when catching a big fish.  I have been using the palm of my right hand to self adjust the drag once the fish is on but seem to have a heavy touch.  Any advice? thanks.

Hi Sky, I set the drag just heavy enough to keep the reel from back lashing or over running when I quickly pull some line off the reel. I then add more drag or resistance with my fingers on the fly line or use the rim control drag. I would then be sure that you have the right size tippet to match your fly size. Make sure that your leader/tippet is fresh and your knots are good. For #10, 12 & 14 dries I would use 5x tippet. For #16, 18 & 20 I would use 6x tippet.(7x later) For #8, 10 & 12 wet flies and nymphs I would use 3x tippet. For #14, 16 & 18 wet flies and nymphs I would use 4x tippet.(5x later) This is a chart I give to anglers that are just getting started. It is just for a rough guide and to get them thinking about using different size tippets with different size flies. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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Breakoffs are the result of both reel drag and rod flex at the tip. A slower rod ie more flexible acts as a shock absorber to the fishes sudden movements and cushions the leader and light tippet. The drag is for breaking the fish’s runs (longer distance moves). I don’t know many fisherman that can use the old palm drag technique without just a little too much pressure just for a split secound that gives the fish your fly. Many reels have good drags like Lamson and Abel (and Cortland etc for the cheaper ones) I like the Bauer and other large arbor reels because their drag is the smoothest and most adjustable. I also have a Rhyle (sp?) which is resonably expensive and the drag is terrible. You keep having to reset it with a fish on. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Help, I am an intermediate fly fisherman who is used to catching pan fish. Lately I have been doing a little better but am having trouble sacrificing my fly  to the God of fish.  Is there a good techniqe out there for running drag on a fairly light rig when catching a big fish.  I have been using the palm of my right hand to self adjust the drag once the fish is on but seem to have a heavy touch.  Any advice? thanks.

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You’ll probably get  a response from TimW, Halfordian Golfer on this one… He’s the one that usually works in drag in this NG…. #:)#

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Help, I am an intermediate fly fisherman who is used to catching pan fish.  Lately I have been doing a little better but am having trouble sacrificing my fly  to the God of fish.  Is there a good techniqe out there for running drag on a fairly light rig when catching a big fish.  I have been using the palm of my right hand to self adjust the drag once the fish is on but seem to have a heavy touch.  Any advice? thanks.

Response:

I am an intermediate fly fisherman who is used to catching pan fish.  Lately I have been doing a little better but am having trouble sacrificing my fly  to the God of fish.  Is there a good techniqe out there for running drag on a fairly light rig when catching a big fish.  I have been using the palm of my right hand to self adjust the drag once the fish is on but seem to have a heavy touch.  Any advice?

You are obviously holding harder than you need. Have a look at books on Pennsylvania fly fishing for trout, where tiny flies require light leaders, e.g. Ed Koch’s Fishing the Midge (1972).  There is a consensus there that even with big fish (say 5 lb.) the rod and guides provide about as much drag as the tippet can endure, depending on how high up you point the rod and how much the rod bends.  For this fishing, reel drag is minimal, i.e. just enough to prevent overrun. I.e. drag depends on the bend of the rod more than the resistance of the reel.  You even see this on salmon rivers where fish run 20 lb.  Reel drag setting is secondary to making the bend of the rod tire out the hooked fish. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Help, I am an intermediate fly fisherman who is used to catching pan fish.  Lately I have been doing a little better but am having trouble sacrificing my fly  to the God of fish.  Is there a good techniqe out there for running drag on a fairly light rig when catching a big fish.  I have been using the palm of my right hand to self adjust the drag once the fish is on but seem to have a heavy touch.  Any advice? thanks.

A top quality fly reel will have an excellent, working drag.  I use Penn International reels…great drag, great reel, expensive but worth it if you hook lots of big fish. — Don Jordan "The Real Indiana Jones" http://realindy.com

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Question:

I’d like to know which leader to use when fishing on lakes-reservoirs with dry and wet fly.

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I’d like to know which leader to use when fishing on lakes-reservoirs with dry and wet fly.

I would use longer leaders on lakes, ranging from 9 to 15 foot on floating lines. Tippets size will depend on conditions and fly size. For dries tippet from 5x to 7x should fit most situations. Wet flies are usually fished on 3x to 5x tippets. This is general info that should help someone that is getting started, not you experts. On sinking lines in still water I would try 7 1/2 to 9 foot leaders. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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I’d like to know which leader to use when fishing on lakes-reservoirs with dry and wet fly. It depends entirely on the body of water and who lives there.  If it’s large, stocked Res and you intend to use large streamers or buggers on sinking line, I tend to use shorter, heavier leaders.  I’ve used 3 foot leaders tapered to, oh, 10 and 12 lb test and have been very successful in such situations.         On still water rich with natural trout food and wild fish, especially the small stuff, your success will improve greatly with a longer, much lighter leader.  10 – 12  feet to 5X is pretty standard fishing wet. For dries this would be a minimum, and an additional length of 6X will

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Question:

hello fellow brewers.  I noticed an article in the local paper that cuaght my interest…. Washington AP – Fellowships fund strange, unusual post-graduate projects  ….. "Christian T. De Benedetti of Newberg, Ore., who is studying at Whitman College in Walla Walla, Wash., is going to Senegal, Niger, Britain, Ireland, Belgium and Germany to study beer making.  He has brewed his own beer and worked with barrels and casks in Oregon’s beverage industry.".    Oh man, some guys have all the luck.  Ok minus the air fare and lodging, i wonder how many pints his fellowship will buy?  They don’t indicate exactly how much he was awarded for the fellowship, but another recipient was allowed $16,000 to go fly fishing in exotic locations! Congratulations Christian! tas — Terry A. Stinnett, Ph.D.             Dept of Applied Behavioral Studies         Oklahoma State University       Stillwater, OK 74078-3063      

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I bet that’s a Watson Fellowship. They’re awarded to liberal arts undergraduates who have a dream to pursue some special topic for one year. Many are pretty unusual (both the dreams and the undergraduates, I guess!). The project does not have to be practical. Just passionate. I used to sit on a committee to select the local Watson nominees. Neat job. JEG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hello fellow brewers.  I noticed an article in the local paper that cuaght my interest…. Washington AP – Fellowships fund strange, unusual post-graduate projects  ….. "Christian T. De Benedetti of Newberg, Ore., who is studying at Whitman College in Walla Walla, Wash., is going to Senegal, Niger, Britain, Ireland, Belgium and Germany to study beer making.  He has brewed his own beer and worked with barrels and casks in Oregon’s beverage industry.".    Oh man, some guys have all the luck.  Ok minus the air fare and lodging, i wonder how many pints his fellowship will buy?  They don’t indicate exactly how much he was awarded for the fellowship, but another recipient was allowed $16,000 to go fly fishing in exotic locations! Congratulations Christian! tas — Terry A. Stinnett, Ph.D.             Dept of Applied Behavioral Studies         Oklahoma State University       Stillwater, OK 74078-3063

– John Gastineau                  "The indoor life is the next best NCSU Physics                     thing to premature burial." Raleigh, NC, USA                 Edward Abbey

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Question:

I am a beginning commercial fly tyer.  I have been at it for about a year and I find that one of the slowest aspects of my production tying is that of hair stacking (particularly calf tail/body). Does anyone know of any tools/methods that would serve to make this process more automated when tying large orders?  Any other hints on speed/production tying would be appreciated.

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I am a beginning commercial fly tyer.  I have been at it for about a year and I find that one of the slowest aspects of my production tying is that of hair stacking (particularly calf tail/body). Does anyone know of any tools/methods that would serve to make this process more automated when tying large orders?  Any other hints on speed/production tying would be appreciated.

Hi Mike I’ve been a commercial tiers for 39 years, the last 28 I’ve tied hair wing flies. When I started tying hair wings I purchased 24 hair stackers. When they are loaded I have the makings for a dozen wings and tails and thus a dozen hair wing flies. It really save a lot of time over constantly picking up and laying down the hair as you tie each pattern. It also helps in keeping track of the number of flies completed and only takes about 5 minutes to load them. You should be able to buy the stackers wholesale. If you have trouble finding a source let me know, I can get Griffins hair stackers for you for wholesale prices ($3.30 per each). Good Luck and if you need any additional info. let me know. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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I built a hair stacker for a dozen flies. It is simply a board with flat bottom holes bored about 1/2 into the board ( a cabinet shop will be able to do this). I then inserted a collar of copper tubing into the bottom of the whole. The collar allows the stacked end of hair to extend beyond the end of the tube. The tube itself is copper tubing and flared at the end just like a regular hairstacker. The board can be loaded fairly rapidly and all the stacks can be evened by tapping the board on the counter top. I beveled one edge of the board so it can be stood on edge and the tubes are slanted. This allows for easy removal. As Al stated, it also helps keep track of the dozens tied. This is the pits when you are in the middle of 50 dozen size 12 Elk Hair Caddis ** Vic Brockett     <<< I fish therefore I am  ** ** Vic’s Fly-By-Night <<< Read "The River Why" **

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I am a beginning commercial fly tyer.  I have been at it for about a year and I find that one of the slowest aspects of my production tying is that of hair stacking (particularly calf tail/body). Does anyone know of any tools/methods that would serve to make this process more automated when tying large orders?  Any other hints on speed/production tying would be appreciated.

Skip Morris suggests stacking a whole bunch at once, and attaching the tip ends to a piece of masking tape, fold the tape over, then hold the whole deal together with a bulldog clip. Scott Univ. of Rochester Med. Ctr.            Phone(716)275-6399 Dept. of Neurology, Box 605               Fax(716)244-4617 Rochester, NY  14642

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Question:

How is the number 3 Hoffman for size 16 thru 24?  The Metz number 2s have them, but not in large quantities.

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The #3 Hoffmans are excellent in these sizes.  And you won’t believe the length of the stems.

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How is the number 3 Hoffman for size 16 thru 24?  The Metz number 2s have them, but not in large quantities.

Don’t know about the Hoffmans, but the Metz #1 are loaded!  I had lots of 22’s over 1 inch long.   A sunny day,      a box of midges,         and a wandering stream…   Man, this MUST be heaven!   <    Steve Kulpa    <<

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How is the number 3 Hoffman for size 16 thru 24?  The Metz number 2s have them, but not in large quantities. Don’t know about the Hoffmans, but the Metz #1 are loaded!  I had lots of 22’s over 1 inch long.  A sunny day,     a box of midges,        and a wandering stream…  Man, this MUST be heaven!  <    Steve Kulpa    <<

From what I have heard and seen, the Hoffman #3 grade is equivalent to a Metz #1.  I know this is true on saddles from personal experience.   It just makes me wonder how good a Hoffman #1 neck would be!!! Tom Cavitt

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I own several metz and several Hoffman necks.  I can’t believe how much better the Hoffmans are than the Metz necks.  A number 3 Hoffman is a superior neck to a number 1 metz any day and far cheaper.

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I own several metz and several Hoffman necks.  I can’t believe how much better the Hoffmans are than the Metz necks.  A number 3 Hoffman is a superior neck to a number 1 metz any day and far cheaper.

I’ve read this and I couldn’t resist the impression that you have been blended by the number of feathers and their relativly low price. I’ve been a user of both Metz and Hoffman for some years now, and I DO see the difference between these two neck-types. Hoffman hackel is much more stiffer than Metz, they are very often U-formed – which makes parachute fly tying quite difficult. So .. to the point. In my opinion both brands are good as all purpose hackle. But Metz (in my humble opinion) gives you flexibility of use – no matter classification.

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been blended by the number of feathers and their relativly low price. I’ve been a user of both Metz and Hoffman for some years now, and I DO see the difference between these two neck-types. Hoffman hackel is much more stiffer than Metz, they are very often U-formed – which makes parachute fly tying quite difficult. So .. to the point. In my opinion both brands are good as all purpose hackle. But Metz (in my humble opinion) gives you flexibility of use – no matter classification. Well, the feathers are really flying now.  The idea that a Metz neck is better than a Hoffman for parachute tying could only be described as bird-brained.  Hoffman hackles are long and the stems are flexible, both essential characteristics for parachute patterns.  In my humble opinion they result in far neater flies than the Metz, and my parachute flies have certainly improved since I’ve switched over.  In fact, I have a #1 metz rooster neck in a medium dun that I will gladly sell for $30.00 (I’ve plucked less than two-dozen feathers between #14-18 on the neck)  so I can put the money toward a #3 Hoffman.  Any of you Metz fans can reach me at my E-mail address and make an offer.

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says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We sigh over the good old days, but… I still have many of the old Indian and Phillipine rooster necks that I bought during the sixties when I was learning to tie.  These were "first quality"  necks that sold for $4-$10 each depending mostly on color. Necks that aren’t worthy to share the same chicken ranch, let alone coop, with a #3 Metz or Hoffman.  Of course the color selection was quite limited–a dun neck was an extreme rarity, especially one in dry-fly quality.  $10 for a mediocre domestic grizzly neck in 1969 (if you could find one at all) is probably about the same as $60-$70 for a superb #1 grizzly today… …you can have the good old days. Thanks Mr. Hoffman, Mr. Metz, and all the others who are producing the best hackle ever Sean Barry

I solved most of my expensive hackle problems.  I tie and use almost exclusively the Comparadun style.  Easy to tie, floats  like a cork and seem to take trout as well as any Mayfly tied in the tradtional manner. Les

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:                       Man, what a difference! : Now to get a brown one … I just bought my first #1 Hoffman a few weeks ago: a beautiful fiery brown!  As you say, it’s a great treat to work with the best.  I’ll never buy anything less (well, hardly ever). — Laboratory for Applied Logic    Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho             www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster

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We sigh over the good old days, but… I still have many of the old Indian and Phillipine rooster necks that I bought during the sixties when I was learning to tie.  These were "first quality"  necks that sold for $4-$10 each depending mostly on color. Necks that aren’t worthy to share the same chicken ranch, let alone coop, with a #3 Metz or Hoffman.  Of course the color selection was quite limited–a dun neck was an extreme rarity, especially one in dry-fly quality.  $10 for a mediocre domestic grizzly neck in 1969 (if you could find one at all) is probably about the same as $60-$70 for a superb #1 grizzly today… …you can have the good old days. Thanks Mr. Hoffman, Mr. Metz, and all the others who are producing the best hackle ever Sean Barry

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I just opened my first Metz #1 neck the other day, and what a treat! I bought it last month when I was at my favorite fly shop cuz it just struck my eye.  A nice dark grizzly, real full and heavy.  I just sold the owner of the shop $70 worth of flys, so I went ahead and got it, even though I had no immeadiate use for it yet.  I still had a lot on my current #2 neck, so I just packed it away for later.  Well, the other night I needed some #20s and my current neck was out of ‘em, so I got out the new one and opened it up.                      Man, what a difference!

[snip] Steve: If somehow a #1 Herbert ever makes it out your way, take a good look at one of those critters. My second choice (and close behind the Hebert) would be Hoffman. Check out the flatness and suppleness of the stems, and check the barb count/stiffness on these two producers’ chickens, and compare them against the Metz. I won’t say that it’ll put a #1 Metz to shame (that would be cruel ;^) but suffice to say that I haven’t bought a Metz in many years once the Hebert’s and Hoffman’s became available out my way… /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <           "Read this and nobody gets hurt"           < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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Jim,         In flyfishing, when we tie our own flies, we use the feathers from roosters for the hackle.  There are a number of fine folks who expend great quantities of money and effort to raise above average plummage for our addiction.  Once raised, they are graded and sold on the basis of their appropriateness to tying.  A number one (#1) neck indicates a slab of skin from the shoulder, neck, and head area of a rooster, bearing a high count of feathers having sufficient length, stiffness of barbules (those little things sticking out from the quill), and smallness of barbules to qualify for a top rating.  It is normally considered appropriate for use in tying a large number of very small dry flies.  A number two (#2) neck may have fewer smaller feathers or fewer barbules, or a problems with color.  It is still useful, just not best.  A number three (#3) is probably getting pretty webby and may only tie wet flies– lacking the stiffness to float a fly on its barbules.  The "neck" designation is to distinguish from a "saddle"– the back part of a bird (where you’d put a saddle if you wanted to ride it).  Saddles are generally considered appropriate for larger flies and often display the stiffness and barbule count of quality necks.  Hoffman and Metz both have demonstrated that saddles can be produced that are suitable for smaller flies.  Saddle feathers are generally much longer than neck feathers and somewhat less expensive. Hope that helps. Charley

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I just opened my first Metz #1 neck the other day, and what a treat! I bought it last month when I was at my favorite fly shop cuz it just struck my eye.  A nice dark grizzly, real full and heavy.  I just sold the owner of the shop $70 worth of flys, so I went ahead and got it, even though I had no immeadiate use for it yet.  I still had a lot on my current #2 neck, so I just packed it away for later.  Well, the other night I needed some #20s and my current neck was out of ‘em, so I got out the new one and opened it up.                       Man, what a difference! The top of the neck is LOADED with #20’s!  I picked out thirty or so and still have lots left, and most are 1 – 1.5 inches long.  I can’t even guess at the number of 22s.  I think I lucked out and got an exceptional #1.  I’m now convinced that #1’s are the way to go, providing you have a chance to look them over.  Now and then an exceptional one will come along. Now to get a brown one … Steve P.S.  Mr. Lum, I thought you’d like hearing this story!   A sunny day,      a box of midges,         and a wandering stream…   Man, this MUST be heaven!   <    Steve Kulpa    <<

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Steve,         What’s a Metz #1 neck? I don’t speak ff so good yet.                                                         Jim

: I just opened my first Metz #1 neck the other day, and what a treat! : I bought it last month when I was at my favorite fly shop cuz it : just struck my eye.  A nice dark grizzly, real full and heavy.  I : just sold the owner of the shop $70 worth of flys, so I went ahead : and got it, even though I had no immeadiate use for it yet.  I : still had a lot on my current #2 neck, so I just packed it away for : later.  Well, the other night I needed some #20s and my current neck : was out of ‘em, so I got out the new one and opened it up. :                       Man, what a difference! : The top of the neck is LOADED with #20’s!  I picked out thirty or so : and still have lots left, and most are 1 – 1.5 inches long.  I can’t : even guess at the number of 22s.  I think I lucked out and got an : exceptional #1.  I’m now convinced that #1’s are the way to go, : providing you have a chance to look them over.  Now and then an : exceptional one will come along. : Now to get a brown one … : Steve : P.S.  Mr. Lum, I thought you’d like hearing this story! :   :   A sunny day, :      a box of midges, :         and a wandering stream… :   Man, this MUST be heaven! :   <    Steve Kulpa    <<

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Question:

         My view on people who have sold out is someone who used to make good,    innovative, sometimes dangerous music who signed to a major and now seem intent    on making enourmous amounts of money playing dull, uninteresting music made with    a safe formula and relying on media hype to boost their income.             My list of major sell-outs would include:-                  the Rolling Stones, Genesis, M.Jackson, Madonna, Guns ‘n’ Roses           (you get the message) To the ones underlined (using "^"): I do not recall that they _ever_ pretended to be "alternative" at any time. They were _always_ mainstream from the outset. By this technicality and by your reasoning, they cannot be sellouts, since none of them were ever "innovative" or "dangerous" by your (and my own) criteria at any time in their carreers, in my opinion.  

        I stand corrected, on re-reading what I had written I can see that I had      slipped out of context for a while. I think I went away from the subject      (i.e. "alternative" music) and instead lingered on the sell-out topic.         What I tried to say (not very clearly) is that these people had made a      large quantity of good music that amassed them a very large fan-base, but when       their music quality dropped to a sub-standard level their record sales        (and hence their income) stayed at a high level due to media hype.

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        Personally I think Nevermind was pretty much a sellout album, with me it hasen’t stood the test of time, or maybe it was just overplayed too much. — Richard Stride… ‘Master Myoclonis Meets Mephisto’

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[Stuff Deleted ...] To the "alternative" loser,   I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory     -Isn’t this a contradiction, surely you’ve categorised alternative music.     I can’t speak for people in America, but in England "alternative" music is just   that – an alternative. It’s not a type of music, you don’t listen to a song and   think "Oh yeah, that’s alternative". It’s a category into which you can slot   many types, styles and fashions – i.e. Punk, Metal, Grunge, crusty, indie etc, etc.

Same here in Canada. And I get annoyed over such interpretations of "alternative" for the same reasons.          My view on people who have sold out is someone who used to make good,    innovative, sometimes dangerous music who signed to a major and now seem intent    on making enourmous amounts of money playing dull, uninteresting music made with    a safe formula and relying on media hype to boost their income.             My list of major sell-outs would include:-                  the Rolling Stones, Genesis, M.Jackson, Madonna, Guns ‘n’ Roses

          (you get the message)

To the ones underlined (using "^"): I do not recall that they _ever_ pretended to be "alternative" at any time. They were _always_ mainstream from the outset. By this technicality and by your reasoning, they cannot be sellouts, since none of them were ever "innovative" or "dangerous" by your (and my own) criteria at any time in their carreers, in my opinion.  Sure, the Stones began their carreers with much controversy and were known as "the Bad Boys of rock and roll" and still are; but IMO, they were merely attracting attention to themselves for commercial gain and success based on the free publicity of the news media. Their "cock-rock" musical style hasn’t changed in the past 30 years, qualifying them as probably more "conservative", and less versatile, IMO, than Frank Sinatra. Same for Madonna’s "cunt-rock" style. The unchanging nature of her music kind of ranks up there with Marie Osmond. BTW, you can also add Paul Simon, and most "resurrected" ’60s rock groups, like Starship (the most extreme example), The Greatful Dead, CSN&Y, Bob Dylan, Eric Clapton (all playing it safe to a lesser extent), and Elton John (another extreme example — recall 11-17-70, Empty Sky, Yellowbrick Road & compare with ANYTHING he’s done since 1980). —

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Hiya, Could someone help me make an informed decision and post the track listing for the latest Pavement album. Thanks, E. |                                 Eric J.                                     |

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        Where the hell has anyone seen a ripped sweater for $300 for crissake!?!?  This I gotta see…js

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How do you think I must feel? I’ve been listening to snotty nosed little dweebs whining about poser’s since grade 10. Ten years ago.

wow, you were in the 10th grade in ‘83, me too.  do you remember the really bad post-punk bands of the day.  too bad i missed out on the poser bashing.  you know what’s really funny:  i still were the same clothes i did then.  then i was called a dirt-boy, now you can buy a ripped sweater for $300.  go figger. —                                   Jeff Scott

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To all the "alternative" losers,         I have a little news for you.  You all seem to think that you are just the coolest calling bands sell-outs and making fun of all the ‘grunge’ dressers.  I’ve been sitting here reading your little arguementative articles and I think you’re all full of crap.  I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory and just because some of my favorie bands happen to have had maybe one album hit mainstream doesn’t mean that now I should change my taste in music.  It also doesn’t mean I won’t be attending Lollapalooza’s anymore.  Those were some of the best times of my life and will be for years to come (hopefully).  It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.  Maybe if you weren’t so close-minded you’d realize how stupid you really sound.  I didn’t post this to get a hostile response, only to make you think.  Really, you do sound like a bunch of losers. Sorry.         -Joanna

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To all the "alternative" losers,    I have a little news for you.  You all seem to think that you are just the coolest calling bands sell-outs and making fun of all the ‘grunge’ dressers.  I’ve been sitting here reading your little arguementative articles and I think you’re all full of crap.  I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory and just because some of my favorie bands happen to have had maybe one album hit mainstream doesn’t mean that now I should change my taste in music.  It also doesn’t mean I won’t be attending Lollapalooza’s anymore.  Those were some of the best times of my life and will be for years to come (hopefully).  It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.  Maybe if you weren’t so close-minded you’d realize how stupid you really sound.  I didn’t post this to get a hostile response, only to make you think.  Really, you do sound like a bunch of losers. Sorry.    -Joanna

yes!!! i posted an article to this effect a little while ago. i thought the whole idea of the mindset that this newsgroup is supposed to represent was being open to new things. lets stop bitching about who liked what groups when, and what groups have sold out because they need to make a living. lets start discussing music for what it is… music. its not grunge, its not alternative, its not rock, its not punk, and its not even disco. its fucking music. those terms are good as catagories for easier identification. kind of like male and female. that is all they are. what matters is the music. burnt

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How do you think I must feel? I’ve been listening to snotty nosed little dweebs whining about poser’s since grade 10. Ten years ago. —                                    Jeff Scott

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To all the "alternative" losers,    I have a little news for you.  You all seem to think that you are just the coolest calling bands sell-outs and making fun of all the ‘grunge’ dressers.  I’ve been sitting here reading your little arguementative articles and I think you’re all full of crap.  I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory and just because some of my favorie bands happen to have had maybe one album hit mainstream doesn’t mean that now I should change my taste in music.  It also doesn’t mean I won’t be attending Lollapalooza’s anymore.  Those were some of the best times of my life and will be for years to come (hopefully).  It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.  Maybe if you weren’t so close-minded you’d realize how stupid you really sound.  I didn’t post this to get a hostile response, only to make you think.  Really, you do sound like a bunch of losers. Sorry.    -Joanna

To the "alternative" loser,     I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory      -Isn’t this a contradiction, surely you’ve categorised alternative music.      I can’t speak for people in America, but in England "alternative" music is just    that – an alternative. It’s not a type of music, you don’t listen to a song and    think "Oh yeah, that’s alternative". It’s a category into which you can slot    many types, styles and fashions – i.e. Punk, Metal, Grunge, crusty, indie etc, etc.          What it’s an alternative to is the "mainstream". This is nothing more than     an enourmous financial institution providing financial security and massive     wealth to many "rock stars". Corporate back-handers ensure radio and TV play     to boring, and safe music makers. These bands are of course not all guilty     many just using the extra spending powers to produce better music (mostly former     indie bands who have signed to majors).           My view on people who have sold out is someone who used to make good,     innovative, sometimes dangerous music who signed to a major and now seem intent     on making enourmous amounts of money playing dull, uninteresting music made with     a safe formula and relying on media hype to boost their income.              My list of major sell-outs would include:-                   the Rolling Stones, Genesis, M.Jackson, Miss Madonna, Guns ‘n’ Roses            (you get the message)            Bands who I think are getting dangerously close to sell-out time                    (their records are getting more and more boring):-                            U2, REM, and Simple Minds         There are countless bands I could add, but I’m not going to (so there).             I don’t think people can be critical of Nirvana yet as they haven’t        released any new material, everything they’ve released since Nevermind was        recorded before Nevermind. They could go on to write better songs      (like Mettalica have) they could progress back to their old (and less popular)   style which is more likely or they could come up with some absolute bollocks.                 Time will tell.           Meanwhile people’s opinion will come and go, birds will fly, fish will swim       and polar bears will do whatever it is polar bears do.          So my dear Joanna, let people say what they want, insults breed nothing but contempt and statements like,             It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.          Don’t say much for freedom of speech, do they.                       Bye,                         Rob

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