Question:

Hey Folks, Does anyone have any advice on where to go in Southern Wisconsin for a short flyfishing trip. Don’t know much about the area and I’m traeling from Western Indiana. Thanks in advance. Elliott

Response:

"ilmbaba" wrote… Hey Folks, Does anyone have any advice on where to go in Southern Wisconsin for a short flyfishing trip. Don’t know much about the area and I’m traeling from Western Indiana. Thanks in advance. Elliott

What is your definition of Souther Wisconsin? What is your definition of a short flyfishing trip? Are you fishing for trout or other species? From Madison west to the Mississippi. From 30 miles south of Madison to over 100 miles north of Madison are 100 trout streams or more. Contact the Wisc. DNR. Contact the Madison Chapter of TU.   Get on the web and do a search.   You’ll find something I’m sure. Good luck. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "ilmbaba" wrote… Hey Folks, Does anyone have any advice on where to go in Southern Wisconsin for a short flyfishing trip. Don’t know much about the area and I’m traeling from Western Indiana. Thanks in advance. Elliott What is your definition of Souther Wisconsin? What is your definition of a short flyfishing trip? Are you fishing for trout or other species? From Madison west to the Mississippi. From 30 miles south of Madison to over 100 miles north of Madison are 100 trout streams or more. Contact the Wisc. DNR. Contact the Madison Chapter of TU.   Get on the web and do a search.   You’ll find something I’m sure. Good luck.

Or you could just contact Wolfgang since he thinks telling everybody about the streams he fishes is okay.  He doesn’t mind the impact and enjoys the company. Perhaps he can even recommend some good books or magazines too. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "ilmbaba" wrote… Hey Folks, Does anyone have any advice on where to go in Southern Wisconsin for a short flyfishing trip. Don’t know much about the area and I’m traeling from Western Indiana. Thanks in advance. Elliott What is your definition of Souther Wisconsin? What is your definition of a short flyfishing trip? Are you fishing for trout or other species? From Madison west to the Mississippi. From 30 miles south of Madison to over 100 miles north of Madison are 100 trout streams or more. Contact the Wisc. DNR. Contact the Madison Chapter of TU. Get on the web and do a search. You’ll find something I’m sure. Good luck. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

Sorry for being so vague. Southern Wisconsin would be from a little above Madison or so. I am aiming for trout (or getting laughed at by same said trout). Short would be two to 2 1/2 days including travel. I have done alot of research and there are, as you said, alot of streams. I guess what I’m looking for is info from folks that have fished some of them and if anyone has an idea of which ones to try first or avoid.

Response:

Question:

I just bought my first fly rod , And went out fishing with it the other day, Wow was i missing the whole sport of fishing! I caught some Largemouth Bass , Rock Bass and Sunnys. Any advice would be greatley appreciated.

Response:

I just bought my first fly rod , And went out fishing with it the other day, Wow was i missing the whole sport of fishing! I caught some Largemouth Bass , Rock Bass and Sunnys. Any advice would be greatley appreciated.

Advice on what?  Sounds like you are doing fine.      - Ken

Response:

I just bought my first fly rod , And went out fishing with it the other day, Wow was i missing the whole sport of fishing! I caught some Largemouth Bass , Rock Bass and Sunnys. Any advice would be greatley appreciated.

    become more literate. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I just bought my first fly rod , And went out fishing with it the other day, Wow was i missing the whole sport of fishing! I caught some Largemouth Bass , Rock Bass and Sunnys. Any advice would be greatley appreciated.

Well, if you’re having fun and getting into fish then it sounds like you’ve gotten the important parts down pat. I personally tend not to care too much beyond that. That being said…what do you need advice about in particular? I’ve only been flyfishing 18 months and plan to be the eternal newbie, but give me some ideas what you want help with and I’d be glad to. Vegetables aren’t food. Vegetables are what the food eats.

Response:

I just bought my first fly rod , And went out fishing with it the other day, Wow was i missing the whole sport of fishing! I caught some Largemouth Bass , Rock Bass and Sunnys. Any advice would be greatley appreciated.

Walk away while you still can. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just bought my first fly rod , And went out fishing with it the other day, Wow was i missing the whole sport of fishing! I caught some Largemouth Bass , Rock Bass and Sunnys. Any advice would be greatley appreciated.

Response:

Bring your own Scotch. Bring enough for everybody. Bring 24 year old Macallan. Bring a tall glass for me. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any advice would be greatley appreciated.

Response:

I just bought my first fly rod , And went out fishing with it the other day, Wow was i missing the whole sport of fishing! I caught some Largemouth Bass , Rock Bass and Sunnys. Any advice would be greatley appreciated.

Ummmm, please tell US how you did it! Regards, Jeff

Response:

I just bought my first fly rod , And went out fishing with it the other day, Wow was i missing the whole sport of fishing! I caught some Largemouth Bass , Rock Bass and Sunnys. Any advice would be greatley appreciated.

Gear, gear and more gear!  And when you think you have enough, buy more! Now where’s that damn Orvis catalog?

Response:

Well, if you’re having fun and getting into fish

How the hell does one get into a fish??? That must be ONE BIG FISH!!! <laugh then it sounds like you’ve gotten the important parts down pat. I personally tend not to care too much beyond that. That being said…what do you need advice about in particular? I’ve only been flyfishing 18 months and plan to be the eternal newbie, but give me some ideas what you want help with and I’d be glad to.

Can we make a club for that? I’ve been at it for 10 Months and have yet to figure out if I am doing ANYTHING right… Oh I do catch fish but I tend to think that it more the fish feeling sorry for me. Vegetables aren’t food. Vegetables are what the food eats.

There goes my theories on the food chain! — Michael Era

Question:

"A-Sad-Eye" wrote… Walt…how much would it take to open up a fly shop?….NC is the first place I have ever been that made me think twice about retiring in South America…

Did I read that right?? Norht Carolina = South America? That explains why I can’t understand anyone when I go through a drive-up window. <g John, it sounds like you’re in for a long month. –Steve

Response:

"A-Sad-Eye" wrote… NC is the first place I have ever been that made me think twice about retiring in South America… Did I read that right??

No. Try again and this time parse it like John already intends to retire near his wife’s home in South America. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Thanks for the analysis re these hazards to graphite rods.  Makes sense.  However, most non-purist ffers are not going to stop fishing nymphs, which have to be weighted by some method, whether beadheads, lead wrap, or split shot. To the extent possible we have to avoid banging our rod tip when casting, by refining or modifying our casting technique. Casting with a more open loop works for me. PatK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hooks are bad enough on graphite tips but bead heads and lead weighted nymphs are worse.  As many of the modern gentry use space age gadgets to tie their flies with, they snap more and more graphite tips because the bead head flies smack at high velocity against the graphite rod tips nicking them.  Oh, they may not snap right away, or next week or the next day but they  will snap soon enough. Nicking graphite is exactly like scratching a pane of glass. Apply the pressure at just the right spot and the glass follows the scratch longitude.  The cross section loads on a tip that is only 3/32 more or less in diameter has Pound Per Inch loads on the cross section that can exceed 185,000 – 250,000 psi at any given time.  Put one imperfection into that circumference and you will have a fiber explosion that can sound like a small bolt of lightening when she pops!  Anyone that sends a graphite tip back to a manufacturer  that has snapped but who has fished Bead Heads with it, are not being fair to the companies that make them.  Frankly, I don’t think any Graphite Fly Rod Company today realizes this fact regarding why they are getting so many fly rods back with broken tips. Frankly, fly fishing to me means "All’s Fair With Fur or Feather," just as in upland hunting over a nice brace of Llewellyn Setters.  But it isn’t fair when fly fishermen are beating perfectly made fly rod tips with Brass, Metal or Lead Bead Heads other than normal hook hazards which is bad enough as it is, breaking them and then claiming foul. The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose.  A little mix of the spinning world into fly fishing is the rogue these days and still claiming its fly fishing in the purist sense of the word. Well, it may be fly fishing but it isn’t pure to the traditions of old. It is compromises in order to take advantage using ingenious methods. The array of glittering materials have seen a huge explosion such as crystal hair, etc.  But Flashabou or Crystal Hair doesn’t smash against the rod tips like bird shot like items do, damaging the fly rods to certain ruin, sooner or later. I think it is only fair that we all consider being absolutely fair with fly rod companies turning out excellent products.  "Well, I slammed the car door on it and it broke," is the complaint and if the fly rod company doesn’t replace it for free . . . oh my! This is why I never use bead head flies and/or nymphs.  At least, not yet I haven’t.  It just doesn’t hold the magic for me as it does for others.  I guess it all depends upon which generation you learned to fly fish in. I have no regrets. Mr. G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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Response:

Hooks are bad enough on graphite tips but bead heads and lead weighted nymphs are worse.  As many of the modern gentry use space age gadgets to tie their flies with, they snap more and more graphite tips because the bead head flies smack at high velocity against the graphite rod tips nicking them.  Oh, they may not snap right away, or next week or the next day but they  will snap soon enough. Nicking graphite is exactly like scratching a pane of glass.  Apply the pressure at just the right spot and the glass follows the scratch longitude.  The cross section loads on a tip that is only 3/32 more or less in diameter has Pound Per Inch loads on the cross section that can exceed 185,000 – 250,000 psi at any given time.  Put one imperfection into that circumference and you will have a fiber explosion that can sound like a small bolt of lightening when she pops!  Anyone that sends a graphite tip back to a manufacturer  that has snapped but who has fished Bead Heads with it, are not being fair to the companies that make them.  Frankly, I don’t think any Graphite Fly Rod Company today realizes this fact regarding why they are getting so many fly rods back with broken tips. Frankly, fly fishing to me means "All’s Fair With Fur or Feather," just as in upland hunting over a nice brace of Llewellyn Setters.  But it isn’t fair when fly fishermen are beating perfectly made fly rod tips with Brass, Metal or Lead Bead Heads other than normal hook hazards which is bad enough as it is, breaking them and then claiming foul. The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose.  A little mix of the spinning world into fly fishing is the rogue these days and still claiming its fly fishing in the purist sense of the word. Well, it may be fly fishing but it isn’t pure to the traditions of old. It is compromises in order to take advantage using ingenious methods. The array of glittering materials have seen a huge explosion such as crystal hair, etc.  But Flashabou or Crystal Hair doesn’t smash against the rod tips like bird shot like items do, damaging the fly rods to certain ruin, sooner or later. I think it is only fair that we all consider being absolutely fair with fly rod companies turning out excellent products.  "Well, I slammed the car door on it and it broke," is the complaint and if the fly rod company doesn’t replace it for free . . . oh my!   This is why I never use bead head flies and/or nymphs.  At least, not yet I haven’t.  It just doesn’t hold the magic for me as it does for others.  I guess it all depends upon which generation you learned to fly fish in. I have no regrets. Mr. G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

Response:

The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose.

It’s quite easy to get a little flash with other materials, as you pointed out.  I would guess that beadheads seem to catch more fish simply because it’s like a built in split shot – most people catch more fish simply because the nymph ends up deeper. Regards, Jeff

Response:

The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose. It’s quite easy to get a little flash with other materials, as you pointed out.  I would guess that beadheads seem to catch more fish simply because it’s like a built in split shot – most people catch more fish simply because the nymph ends up deeper. Regards, Jeff

______  A spherical bead head always has a flash spot or bright spot on it.  A glint that attracts whenever it gets into sunlight.  Besides what you point out about getting nymphs down to xink to the bottom, there are other ways besides beads.   — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

Response:

Man I’ve got so much to say…… Opie…you’re good and I’m sorry to hear about Mom.  Wish her the best. I know how you care for her and have you seen Walt…how much would it take to open up a fly shop?….NC is the first place I have ever been that made me think twice about retiring in South America. But I almost blew it because Wayno…..I  could have used you in Chicago because the weather was rainy and it got real drunk out before I went into the Orvis shop and thought, I wish Wayne was here because… Wayne, even tho’ I hate brand name labels….Orvis does make some good shit and I’d buy one of everything if I could afford it, but I couldn’t and I didn’t and I really wish – Wofgang would have been there to drive me back to the hotel because I got really lost and at times found myself in the deepest darkest alleys but now I’m home and the wife left  to visit her folks for a month and although I have scoured this town , nowhere is to be found, Low Down Brown and I wish… Ken were here to recommend a substitute, because… Charlie, I’ve only my beer and I’m down to stems and seeds again, and I’m   – Daytripper just about every damn day until she gets back and although I want to head south I might not make it because the horror and agony of knowing that countless gazzillions of insects died because they couldn’t xink to the bottom ….. ……well…..never mind.  But if there is something to get a nymph…or wooly down to the bottom  in some of the places I fish…..bring a camera ’cause I will xuck your dick……. …a month she is going to be gone gentlemen.  A month. This could get ugly…… john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose. It’s quite easy to get a little flash with other materials, as you pointed out.  I would guess that beadheads seem to catch more fish simply because it’s like a built in split shot – most people catch more fish simply because the nymph ends up deeper. Regards, Jeff ______  A spherical bead head always has a flash spot or bright spot on it.  A glint that attracts whenever it gets into sunlight.  Besides what you point out about getting nymphs down to xink to the bottom, there are other ways besides beads. — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

Response:

Man I’ve got so much to say…… Wayno…..I  could have used you in Chicago because the weather was rainy and it got real drunk out before I went into the Orvis shop and thought, I wish Wayne was here because…

        well, john, i doubt i will be able to make the connection, but here’s a little help to put in your pocket when things get tough; just follow the bouncing ball:         then take me disappearin through the smoke rings of my mind,         down the foggy ruins of time, far past the frozen leaves,         the haunted, frightened trees, out to the windy beach,         far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow.         yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free,         silhouetted by the sea, circled by the circus sands,             with all memory and fate driven deep beneath the waves,         let me forget about today until tomorrow.                 b. dylan  (but you knew that) your friend in the old north state wayno

Response:

…I don’t know Mr. G., but in my book an unconditional warranty on a rod is just that. ..and if we all want to be purists, wouldn’t we be using bamboo and braided hair lines?     I think you might be right though when you suggest that a definition of fly fishing might depend upon which generation you learned to fish in. Or, more than it being something to do with different generations, it could be that how you are introduced to fly fishing plays a larger part in shaping definitions. After all,the generation gap is a lot more narrow than we sometimes can recognize (lord knows, my once incredibly dense father keeps getting smarter and smarter the older I get).   In my case, no one I ever grew up with threw a fly; a casting book by Joan Wulff was my introduction. So I’ve never really had anyone tell me that "x" is fly fishing and "y" is not. My feeling is that if it’s an artificial lure and If I can cast it, then the fish and the trees should best beware.     …thanks for the great post, you got me thinking about my Pops.. and on fathers day at that. Later, Patrick

Response:

I like that! — Opie  –Planning for the Past– – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …I don’t know Mr. G., but in my book an unconditional warranty on a rod is just that. ..and if we all want to be purists, wouldn’t we be using bamboo and braided hair lines?     I think you might be right though when you suggest that a definition of fly fishing might depend upon which generation you learned to fish in. Or, more than it being something to do with different generations, it could be that how you are introduced to fly fishing plays a larger part in shaping definitions. After all,the generation gap is a lot more narrow than we sometimes can recognize (lord knows, my once incredibly dense father keeps getting smarter and smarter the older I get).   In my case, no one I ever grew up with threw a fly; a casting book by Joan Wulff was my introduction. So I’ve never really had anyone tell me that "x" is fly fishing and "y" is not. My feeling is that if it’s an artificial lure and If I can cast it, then the fish and the trees should best beware.     …thanks for the great post, you got me thinking about my Pops.. and on fathers day at that. Later, Patrick

Response:

…I don’t know Mr. G., but in my book an unconditional warranty on a rod is just that. ..and if we all want to be purists, wouldn’t we be using bamboo and braided hair lines?

purist because the term purist has not been defined except in the loosest sense.  I said, I was glad I learned to fly fish in my generation.  That in itself is definition enough.  I see you confirm that below.  Thank you for your thoughts and input.  There is a big difference between fly fishing and jig fishing with plastic worm these days.     I think you might be right though when you suggest that a definition of fly fishing might depend upon which generation you learned to fish in. Or, more than it being something to do with different generations, it could be that how you are introduced to fly fishing plays a larger part in shaping definitions. After all,the generation gap is a lot more narrow than we sometimes can recognize (lord knows, my once incredibly dense father keeps getting smarter and smarter the older I get).   In my case, no one I ever grew up with threw a fly; a casting book by Joan Wulff was my introduction. So I’ve never really had anyone tell me that "x" is fly fishing and "y" is not. My feeling is that if it’s an artificial lure and If I can cast it, then the fish and the trees should best beware.     …thanks for the great post, you got me thinking about my Pops.. and on fathers day at that. Later, Patrick

– Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

Response:

If this is just the beginnings of *could get bad,* I fear the future! — Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Man I’ve got so much to say…… Opie…you’re good and I’m sorry to hear about Mom.  Wish her the best. I know how you care for her and have you seen Walt…how much would it take to open up a fly shop?….NC is the first place I have ever been that made me think twice about retiring in South America. But I almost blew it because Wayno…..I  could have used you in Chicago because the weather was rainy and it got real drunk out before I went into the Orvis shop and thought, I wish Wayne was here because… Wayne, even tho’ I hate brand name labels….Orvis does make some good shit and I’d buy one of everything if I could afford it, but I couldn’t and I didn’t and I really wish – Wofgang would have been there to drive me back to the hotel because I got really lost and at times found myself in the deepest darkest alleys but now I’m home and the wife left  to visit her folks for a month and although I have scoured this town , nowhere is to be found, Low Down Brown and I wish… Ken were here to recommend a substitute, because… Charlie, I’ve only my beer and I’m down to stems and seeds again, and I’m   – Daytripper just about every damn day until she gets back and although I want to head south I might not make it because the horror and agony of knowing that countless gazzillions of insects died because they couldn’t xink to the bottom ….. ……well…..never mind.  But if there is something to get a nymph…or wooly down to the bottom  in some of the places I fish…..bring a camera ’cause I will xuck your dick……. …a month she is going to be gone gentlemen.  A month. This could get ugly…… john The extra glitter most get with bead heads is the same as fishing with pistol petes and calling it fly fishing, I suppose. It’s quite easy to get a little flash with other materials, as you pointed out.  I would guess that beadheads seem to catch more fish simply because it’s like a built in split shot – most people catch more fish simply because the nymph ends up deeper. Regards, Jeff ______  A spherical bead head always has a flash spot or bright spot on it.  A glint that attracts whenever it gets into sunlight.  Besides what you point out about getting nymphs down to xink to the bottom, there are other ways besides beads. — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

Response:

Question:

Hey Folks – Was fishing a small river in Washington a couple of years ago and ran into numerous two-handed rods. I understand that you can mend line more effectively and cover more water than with conventional tackle, but when my brother was fishing a run on this small river some guy on the other side waded in behind him and ended up swinging his fly just a couple of feet from where my brother was standing, and into virtually the same water he was covering. I saw this a number of times on this two-day trip, and really could not understand what the hell these guys were doing. I concluded, perhaps mistakenly, that these two-handed rodders were new to the sport of flyfishing, as they didn’t seem to understand the error of their ways. I have been dirtbagged plenty in twenty years of steelheading, but getting dirtbagged by a flyfisherman was relatively new to me until I started running into some of these double-handers. Have any of you run into similar experiences with two-handed rodders? -Charlie Miller

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Folks – Was fishing a small river in Washington a couple of years ago and ran into numerous two-handed rods. I understand that you can mend line more effectively and cover more water than with conventional tackle, but when my brother was fishing a run on this small river some guy on the other side waded in behind him and ended up swinging his fly just a couple of feet from where my brother was standing, and into virtually the same water he was covering. I saw this a number of times on this two-day trip, and really could not understand what the hell these guys were doing. I concluded, perhaps mistakenly, that these two-handed rodders were new to the sport of flyfishing,

Very well established style of fly-fishing called Spey fishing, originally developed on the river Spey in Scotland. Two handed rods of great length (14-16′) which are popular on big rivers such the Thompson in B.C. as they didn’t seem to understand the error of their ways.

Good heavens!!!!!! such manners from a fly fisherman, will wonders never cease.  I have been dirtbagged plenty in twenty years of steelheading, but getting dirtbagged by a flyfisherman was relatively new to me until I started running into some of these double-handers. Have any of you run into similar experiences with two-handed rodders?

It just goes to show that such behaviour is not alien to the haughty-taughty fly fishing community. I love fly-fishing but there is nothing worse than the elitist attitude I come across among some fly fisherman.

Response:

…  I love fly-fishing but there is nothing worse than the elitist attitude I come across among some fly fisherman.

NOTHING worse ? Cheap scotch, cancelling Cheers, the designated hitter rule, novels by Robert J. Waller ? NOTHING worse ? Awww c’mon. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 3 – Tar Heels 1

Response:

…  I love fly-fishing but there is nothing worse than the elitist attitude I come across among some fly fisherman. NOTHING worse ? Cheap scotch, cancelling Cheers, the designated hitter rule, novels by Robert J. Waller ? NOTHING worse ? Awww c’mon. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 3 – Tar Heels 1

    bad salmon, regular season baseball games, the nba, soccer without women (either before, during, or after), cigarettes, chiggers, driving to work, district attorneys, the morning after, the afternoon before…surely there’s more? wayno

Response:

[snipped] I agree with most of those bullets, Mike except… the night before the morning after

Actually, I rather enjoy that part ;^) the Broncos

LOL! Oh, how the mighty have fallen ;^) /daytripper (With the undefeated Patsies)

Response:

Daytripper wrote : [snipped] I agree with most of those bullets, Mike except… the night before the morning after Actually, I rather enjoy that part ;^) the Broncos LOL! Oh, how the mighty have fallen ;^) /daytripper (With the undefeated Patsies)

  Oh yeah!  Well, while you spend Sunday with your nose glued to the tube, I’m going fishing. (Damn Broncos)

Response:

The memory of Tripper’s sneakers.  It will stay with me for a long, long time.

Yeah – but they weren’t a problem on the river (though only because I don’t wear them on the river ;^) /daytripper (careful – or I’ll dig ‘em up and mail ‘em to ya!)

Response:

   bad salmon, regular season baseball games, the nba, soccer without women (either before, during, or after), cigarettes, chiggers, driving to work, district attorneys, the morning after, the afternoon before…surely there’s more?

Postseason baseball games, soccer even with women, menthol cigarettes, sand fleas, parking at school, the night before the morning after, the City and County of Denver, being on the receiving end of an iron-wrist takedown, Ford trucks, three-two beer, jello shots, the Broncos, minor but persistent cases of the flu, not being able to fish for a few weeks, my fiancee being on the other side of the freakin’ Pacific Ocean… Like an instructor of mine once said: "sometimes, it just sucks to be you." I have to settle for being young, healthy, and solvent and seeing the sunset over the Rockies as I drink beer in the backyard every evening. The next line is true. The last line is false.

Response:

 too much coke… not enough rum     and to think; back in the early eighties, it was just the other way around. wayno

Response:

Day Tripper: <<These are definately worse but seldom a problem on the river. True – but you left out jet skis – which often are… /daytripper The memory of Tripper’s sneakers.  It will stay with me for a long, long time. Dave L.

Response:

True – but you left out jet skis – which often are…

Aren’t those what PETA uses to harass fishermen (might as well drag their sorry asses in this<g)… — Charlie…

Response:

wayno: <<district attorneys, ROFL.   BTW, counselor, when the hell are you gonna be at this Smoky thing?  Last I heard you were going to be there Sat – Tues., but I have heard tell you will be there until Thurs.  What’s up? Louie, who has wanted to do Hazel for sooooooo long!

Response:

 Aww hell you’re right Ken, there ARE things worse than that; warm beer, Japanese shitbox cars on lowered suspensions with big boom box stereos,  the Americanization of our beloved hockey by Bettman (the commisioner) These are definately worse but seldom a problem on the river. True – but you left out jet skis – which often are… /daytripper

  Last Saturday I was on the Harrison river in my 18′Hewescraft. boats were everywhere and travelling up and down the river chasing the sockeye, and pink salmon. A disquieting noise began to emerge from down river that grew louder and louder. All of a sudden we see a long line of jet skis coming up the river like a pack of jungle dogs. I counted  29 jetskis all in a row like some gang of  Hawgs riders looking for anyone to defy them. An amazing site. If you think jet skis are bad now, just wait. It will only get worse as they drive all other boaters of the water. Stevo the future-fearer

Response:

 Aww hell you’re right Ken, there ARE things worse than that; warm beer, Japanese shitbox cars on lowered suspensions with big boom box stereos,  the Americanization of our beloved hockey by Bettman (the commisioner) These are definately worse but seldom a problem on the river.

True – but you left out jet skis – which often are… /daytripper

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     bad salmon, regular season baseball games, the nba, soccer without women (either before, during, or after), cigarettes, chiggers, driving to work, district attorneys, the morning after, the afternoon before…surely there’s more? Ill mannered dogs, cell phones in cars, collection agencies, interruptions at dinner (or any other meal), major American brewers, cats, black flies, internal combustion engines, canned soup, Wonder "Bread" (the real wonder is that they get away with calling it bread), insurance sales people, insurance actuaries, insurance companies, muggers, buggers, huggers, Barney, Paul Hogan, Rush Limbaugh, Bill Clinton, the various Georges and other Bushes, what’s his name-the dipshit New York DJ just had his own movie last year, Ryan

Yikes, I’ve really started something here, so I guess I’ll continue; Revenue Canada, photoradar, gridlock, poachers, the Dallas Stars, Toronto, drive-by shootings, river mechanics, too much coke… not enough rum,  blown-out rivers, outboards that won’t start, commercial fisherman, Fisheries and Oceans Canada

Response:

…  I love fly-fishing but there is nothing worse than the elitist attitude I come across among some fly fisherman. NOTHING worse ? Cheap scotch, cancelling Cheers, the designated hitter rule, novels by Robert J. Waller ? NOTHING worse ? Awww c’mon.

  Aww hell you’re right Ken, there ARE things worse than that; warm beer, Japanese shitbox cars on lowered suspensions with big boom box stereos,  the Americanization of our beloved hockey by Bettman (the commisioner) These are definately worse but seldom a problem on the river. Cheers (the salutation, not the series) Stevo the hockey starved

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    bad salmon, regular season baseball games, the nba, soccer without women (either before, during, or after), cigarettes, chiggers, driving to work, district attorneys, the morning after, the afternoon before…surely there’s more?

Ill mannered dogs, cell phones in cars, collection agencies, interruptions at dinner (or any other meal), major American brewers, cats, black flies, internal combustion engines, canned soup, Wonder "Bread" (the real wonder is that they get away with calling it bread), insurance sales people, insurance actuaries, insurance companies, muggers, buggers, huggers, Barney, Paul Hogan, Rush Limbaugh, Bill Clinton, the various Georges and other Bushes, what’s his name-the dipshit New York DJ just had his own movie last year, Ryan

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Question:

Does anyone know of an island with good fly fishing in the Caribbean? I’m specifically talking about the Eastern Caribbean, the islands they call the Lesser Antilles. My wife wants to go on vacation there, and I’m trying to figure out what I’m going to do while she lies on the beach… Thanks for any help. Simon Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

The Virgin Islands have a few flats. St John is actually very nice is many ways. You have to be careful though. I was held up at gun point in St Thomas last year when fishing probably the best flat which is off a beach that only locals go to. St John does not have that problem and is mostly a national park. I. Clair

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Question:

Any thoughts on Striper fishing in the Scarborough, Cape Elizabeth region? Any insight would be appreciated.

Response:

might want to go take a look at Bob Skehan’s Maine Fly Fishing page or get in

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Question:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ?   Really ?

What would anyone do with a ’starving’ fish –  bury it in their garden to fertilize the tomatoes? Feed it to the cat? Cat might not eat it! Ralph H

Response:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ?   Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO.

Tim, that was clearly a sarcastic remark in as short a form as I could provide, in response to this totally contrived troll of yours (which didn’t merit the response you would like to have received)… Yours is a tiresome routine – starting one thread after another all aimed at repeating your philosphy ad nauseum – and self-sanctified as being preferable to more civilized/less contentious topics of discussion… To what ends, I ask? Frankly I’m surprised you have any time left to actually fish – if you actually *do* fish… /dave

Response:

For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul Marriner

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW.

Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ?  Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases.   I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’.   Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature.  A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning.  The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases.  The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW

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Fish have to dash away from predators all the time; they have energy stores that help them deal with that. Trout, steelhead and salmon go through frequent and often lengthy periods when they feed little or not at all. You’d have us believe that a "sprint around the block" followed by a fast lasting a few hours will lead to death by starvation.

But… When you’re fishing a hatch, you play the fish buring one of those *brief* periods when food is abundant.  If the sprint around the block is always at diinertime, and the food is gone by the time you return, it can add up. I’m not saying, "don’t fish," I’m just saying that there are impacts involved in c&r, just like any style of fishing.   (Besides, during a heavy hatch, it can be a lot of fun to lean the rod against a tree and watch the fish work, without trying to catch them. Can improve your fishing, too.) CQ

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A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?  I mean, you’re more likely to find a selective fish in some rich, artificial tailwater than you are in a high-county lake or stream, aren’t you?  

Not when a hatch is on.  High country fish can be very selective then. It makes sense for a trout to become selective when mayflies are hatching because it’s a temporary abundance.   The nymphs, baitfish, et al, will still be there after the hatch is over. CQ

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ?  Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases.   I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’.   Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature.  A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning.  The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases.  The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW

Sorry Tim I think this little bit of work from your imagination is a clunker. But then nobody bats 100. I posted my reponses previously so won’t repeat them. hope you don’t mind me asking but did you base this on any study or work that shows fish in those alpine streams you fish are so stressed by lack of food? BTW a fish with a big head and small body isn’t starving it’s just lean like a marathon runner or a cheetah. Starving fish have shrunken concave bellies. You wouldn’t want to eat one either. Ralph H

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey.         Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ?  Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases.   I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’.   Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature.  A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning.  The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases.  The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW

Sorry time but IMO this work from your imagination is a clunker. I’ve posted my responses elsewhere and won’t repeat them. However let me ask did you base this post on any kind of study on the alpine streams in your area that indicated the fish were so stressed by lack of food? BTW a fish with a big head and small body isn’t starving; it’s just lean like a marathon runner or a cheetah. Starving fish have concave shrunken bellies. You wouldn’t want to eat one either. Ralph H

Response:

: That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish.   : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?   I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways. JonCook.

Response:

A guy who works in a fly shop just told me this evening about a guy who said he played a steelhead for 3 and a half hours.  I asked him how big it was and he told me the guy claimed 8 pounds.  Slightly less than a

Good Grief!  What kind of rod could he have been using.  I have landed steelhead this size on a 4 wt. rod in less than 20 minutes.  Three and a half hours is torture! -Burton

Response:

While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot… I have taken the liberty of changing the thread title for you, if you want a serious discussion of the mine possibility and its detriment. This is a different thread… TimW

 Nah…I just wanted to remind you that there are bigger fish to fry.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish. : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways.

Ok then.  What I am hearing… Our [flyfishermen's] definition of the ethics of catch and release… "We may cause indiscriminate harm to a wild animal, so long as the animal does not normally  die as a result, in our search for happiness.  Our metric will only include mortality and  will not include incidental suffering or non-fatal injury" Or, something like that… I laugh at our free usage of the term ‘respect’ for a wild animal.  It is really, really laughable (if it weren’t so sad).   Wham !!! Set the Hook !!!! Wham, Lay the rod into it !! she’s runnin’ for the rapids…then this thoughtful ‘respectful’ release…sometimes with an accompanying little kiss on the lips.  Respect ?  I don’t think so.  Cause for self-congratulation, perhaps. TimW

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While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot…

Finally the real meat of the issues. Isn’t it time we humans get a little more ,NO! a lot more involve with the issues of rectifying and push for the preservation of our current watersheds. When their all gone who will be there to make new ones? The issues may vary from state to state, but they are the sum of all the parts. Trout are a good indicator for water quality and the quality of life to which we an ultimately attached. Seems to me that a new thread needs to be started here. Our fingers are dancing on the very tools that could start a very positive movement. What do you say guys? How about it, Tim, George, and Al? On another sad note, my ISP really sucks and I only receive less than half of the news posting and feel like a mushroom on lost thread portions. If anybody felt like CC me on your postings I would sure appreciate it. — Doug Knight                           metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $50.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ? Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO. Tim, that was clearly a sarcastic remark in as short a form as I could provide, in response to this totally contrived troll of yours (which didn’t merit the response you would like to have received)… Yours is a tiresome routine – starting one thread after another all aimed at repeating your philosphy ad nauseum – and self-sanctified as being preferable to more civilized/less contentious topics of discussion… To what ends, I ask?

I’ll be happy when the popularity of the sport subsides by say, 80%.  I’ll be patting myself on the back all the way down to the deep run behind Pat’s rock, which will be devoid of people and clogged with fish. TimW

Response:

While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot… I have taken the liberty of changing the thread title for you, if you want a serious discussion of the mine possibility and its detriment. This is a different thread… TimW

OK Tim, You were reading my mind. What are we playing with here, threads, fish, or environmental action? Isn’t it time we all get involved. Where do I sign up? It’s time to give something back. Please make note to CC, my ISP really sucks. — Doug Knight                           metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $50.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

Response:

Tim pardon me but this is vapour ware to the nth degree. You’re expounding proifically on a hypothetical situation about which nothing is known. Fish have to dash away from predators all the time; they have energy stores that help them deal with that. Trout, steelhead and salmon go through frequent and often lengthy periods when they feed little or not at all. You’d have us believe that a "sprint around the block" followed by a fast lasting a few hours will lead to death by starvation. If you’re going to fabricate something please at least make it credible and believable. from Your Biggest fan Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.  It is important that the energy expended to consume an insect must not exceed the energy gained by this insects consumption. It is tough row to hoe for a fish eating this minutae.  What percentage of fish even make it to this stage ? Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation.  Bingo.  Fish On.  The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ? Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? TimW

Response:

The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.  

A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?  I mean, you’re more likely to find a selective fish in some rich, artificial tailwater than you are in a high-county lake or stream, aren’t you?   Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation.  Bingo.  Fish On.  The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ?

(I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ?

It seems like the folks fishing the rich tailwaters are more likely to be using too light of a rod for the fish that live there, so the benefit of plentiful food could be offset by the fish being played way longer than it should have been.  It may die anyway. The starving fish in the sterile alpine creek can’t be underpowered, but there is hardly any food for it to eat once it’s released. What?   If it was an overcrowded stream, you’re right.  If there are so many fish in the creek that the one you just caught is starving, kill and eat it.   That population sounds like it needs to be thinned, in my no-expert opinion.  A lot of the higher streams I’ve fished have what seem to be normal numbers of fish – they are healthy, active, and not swarming all over each other.  I’d imagine that at least some of them have native fish, and they *are* all wild fish.  There seems to be plenty of food. The only fish I’ll take out of a small, highish creek around here are brook trout or the rare brown; no cutts or rainbows.  I don’t feel bad about that, because these fish aren’t monsters and they are generally not starving.  The fight is quick and one-sided, and they are undoubtedly more stunned than exhausted when it’s over.  Of any trout, these are the ones I like to lay eyes on the most.  C&K seems like a bad idea to have catch on when it comes to these streams.   If you fish a heavier rod while practicing C&R, you release a healthier fish but probably shouldn’t call it ’sport.’  If you fish a really light, sporting rod; play the trout for ten minutes; kill, keep, and eat it, you have a fish that tastes bad. I don’t call what I do with those little cutts and redsides ’sport,’ and the brook trout I keep are delicious. The part of C&R that bugs me is hearing of 15# steelhead caught on four-weight rigs, people fishing for huge trout with two-weights, etc.   Small, alpine trout are probably bothered by C&R the least, and they are the ones that need it the most.  In my opinion. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TimW

Response:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ?

No.

Response:

The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom. I don’t get it.  Why would it be better for a trout to concentrate on midges and ignore a juicy sculpin, as long as it was big enough to eat one?

because the midges are abundant thr fish gains more calories than it expends by feeding exclusively on midges and ignoring the sculpin. It’s a hypothesis used to explain selectivity Also, why would the fish have to concentrate if there was a lot of food in the water?  Isn’t that where the phrase ‘easy pickins’ comes from?  You don’t mean that trout are easily confused, do you?!?

It’s not my idea. No I don’t mean they are confused. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat  swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying. You’re right, that didn’t make any sense.  It’s the stored glycogen in the muscle that they use up so fast.  The book I just checked that in claims that the white muscle used for burst speed may take up to 18 hours to get rid of the lactic acid that results from the gas-guzzling, while the muscles used for regular, sustained swimming do it in an hour or less.   So you probably can’t compare swimming vs. fighting fish and then say that there isn’t any truth to what Tim Walker was saying. Also, salmon are making a one-way trip.  They don’t have to budget their energy, really.  I wouln’t be supprised at all to hear that salmon use more energy trying to get over a single tough falls than a typical trout does in a month of dodging predators, but the salmon probably dies sooner for doing it.

Salmon don’t always make a one way trip. Atlantics and steelhead usually return to the sea. Also salmon don’t stare to death they are genetically programed to die after spawning. Some stocks that are as sea fat as other go only a few yrds above tide water. Pacific salmon die of multiple organ failure that can’t simply be explain by starvation. Also genetically they can make the switch from salt to fresh water only once. The die off could be an adaption to transfer rich ocean nutrients to their native streams and enhance their offsprings chances for survival. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out. That’s true.  It’s strange that some of the more obviously-overcrowded lakes that I’ve seen are also shallow.  If any lake was going to winter-kill, it seems like they’d be the ones. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. Ralph H

Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No.

You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ?  Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO. TimW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish. : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways. JonCook.

While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot…

Response:

The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom.

I don’t get it.  Why would it be better for a trout to concentrate on midges and ignore a juicy sculpin, as long as it was big enough to eat one?  Also, why would the fish have to concentrate if there was a lot of food in the water?  Isn’t that where the phrase ‘easy pickins’ comes from?  You don’t mean that trout are easily confused, do you?!? (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat  swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying.

You’re right, that didn’t make any sense.  It’s the stored glycogen in the muscle that they use up so fast.  The book I just checked that in claims that the white muscle used for burst speed may take up to 18 hours to get rid of the lactic acid that results from the gas-guzzling, while the muscles used for regular, sustained swimming do it in an hour or less.   So you probably can’t compare swimming vs. fighting fish and then say that there isn’t any truth to what Tim Walker was saying. Also, salmon are making a one-way trip.  They don’t have to budget their energy, really.  I wouln’t be supprised at all to hear that salmon use more energy trying to get over a single tough falls than a typical trout does in a month of dodging predators, but the salmon probably dies sooner for doing it. if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out.

That’s true.  It’s strange that some of the more obviously-overcrowded lakes that I’ve seen are also shallow.  If any lake was going to winter-kill, it seems like they’d be the ones. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ralph H

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Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  

A guy who works in a fly shop just told me this evening about a guy who said he played a steelhead for 3 and a half hours.  I asked him how big it was and he told me the guy claimed 8 pounds.  Slightly less than a half hour a pound… Phil

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A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?  

The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom. You’re right a starving fish is unlikley to be selective. (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.)

what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat  swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying. very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out.

if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It seems like the folks fishing the rich tailwaters are more likely to be using too light of a rod for the fish that live there, so the benefit of plentiful food could be offset by the fish being played way longer than it should have been.  It may die anyway. The starving fish in the sterile alpine creek can’t be underpowered, but there is hardly any food for it to eat once it’s released. What?   [snip] The part of C&R that bugs me is hearing of 15# steelhead caught on four-weight rigs, people fishing for huge trout with two-weights, etc.

This bugs me too and I think many have pushed the light tackle envelope too far, way too far. Small, alpine trout are probably bothered by C&R the least, and they are the ones that need it the most.  In my opinion. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or.

Ralph H

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The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.  It is important that the energy expended to consume an insect must not exceed the energy gained by this insects consumption. It is tough row to hoe for a fish eating this minutae.  What percentage of fish even make it to this stage ? Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation.  Bingo.  Fish On.  The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ? Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?  Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? TimW

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Question:

i’ve asked about fishing in colorado during the first week of april, and i’ve gotten mixed responses.  some say i’ll need an ice pick, others say there will be good fishing.  i’m confused. i’ll be staying in winter park, but would be willing to drive 1.5-2 hours to get  to a fishable locale.  i’m new to fly fishing, so i probably will be practicing my casting more than catching fish, but who knows?  any tips would be appreciated. anyone in colorado up for some fishing? (or teaching?) thanks, narayan — Narayan Nayar

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Dear Novice, I am an avid flyfisherman in Colorado and fish all season.  Depending on where you go you may encounter ice or clear, cold water.  The South Platte River, although heavily fished, can be fished all year around.  The area around Deckers is the most popular and has "Gold Medal" water.  You can pull out a 10lb rainbow in some of the deeper Holes (Gilpen Trail) or below Cheesman Dam.  Another place to fish is the Blue River in Silverthorne.  Some of the biggest fish are right below the Dam and in back of the outlet stores.  Word has it that their are 15lb Rainbows that are in their.  They feed on Miasis (sp?) Shrimp.  These are all within about 2 hrs or less.  One thing to remember is that the weather can be either beautiful and 50 degrees, or snowing 6-12 inches (especially in Summit county). Those are two places that you can try.  They are popular, but there are many fishing stores around to help you with fly selection and equipment.

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Question:

I’ll try to remain calm… I just heard about a guy here in Glenwood Springs that is attempting to get a patent for a new Green Drake pattern that he ‘invented’. I am (almost) physically ill at the thought of this. When we walk down to the stream (or lake or salt or…) to flyfish we are carrying with us the knowledge, spirit and soul of hundreds of years of tradition.  We can design flies,  but our basis is that of every fisher who ever wet a line. I can think of nothing more arrogant. Tim Walker

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll try to remain calm… I just heard about a guy here in Glenwood Springs that is attempting to get a patent for a new Green Drake pattern that he ‘invented’. I am (almost) physically ill at the thought of this. When we walk down to the stream (or lake or salt or…) to flyfish we are carrying with us the knowledge, spirit and soul of hundreds of years of tradition.  We can design flies,  but our basis is that of every fisher who ever wet a line. I can think of nothing more arrogant. Tim Walker

I’ll agree in principal, but practicaly it wishful thinking.  Some people seek a living from the sport, and a patent can serve to protect their interest.  Pott Mite flies still carry a patent.  Parachute flies were patented at one time, and called "gyros".  Mike Tucker has a patented scud pattern (it’s excellent).  Many people today trademark the name of their patterns.  You may not like the idea, and I must say that a patent is perhaps going a bit too far, but only because it’s so easy to get around it by switching materials, or process.  If someone wants to, I’d be the last person to object, but I sure wouldn’t waste my time by doing it. —  Have a marvelous time, and be sure to get a lot of roughage in your Diet! Chaz ;-

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: I’ll try to remain calm…   … as will I … : I just heard about a guy here in Glenwood Springs that is attempting to : get a patent for a new Green Drake pattern that he ‘invented’. : I am (almost) physically ill at the thought of this. : When we walk down to the stream (or lake or salt or…) to flyfish we : are carrying with us the knowledge, spirit and soul of hundreds of : years of tradition.  We can design flies,  but our basis is that of : every fisher who ever wet a line.   This man may fly-fish but he certainly doesn’t fit my definition of a   fly-fisherman. : I can think of nothing more arrogant.   Nor I : Tim Walker   Izaak Walton had a little to say about "rich men" being a sad lot because   they become " vexatious " and ‘invent’ ways to hold on to their money .   This guy sounds like he’s inventing other things besides fly-patterns.   For crying out loud, who does he think he is, what tyer/fisher hasn’t   developed a pattern that works for him/her and is his favourite when a   a hatch of "so and so’s" is on … and I bet there’ll be a guy a mile or   so upstream using a similar pattern that he ‘invented’. In the interests of sharing patterns here’s one I ‘invented’ (given the constraint listed above) for use as a general search pattern on a small river that I fish quite often. This river has a population of freshwater crayfish, which are royal blue and black with a large white claw and white spots on the carapace nodules ( the spiny bits on the shell). The best part is the young also look like this and can be represented quite nicely on a size 10 long shank hook. Large black mayfly numphs also thrive here, with the distinguishing feature of these blokes is a white under belly …. So this Is what I came up with ….         hook: 10ls, 12, 14           tail: black cock (1/2 body length – good bunch)     body: black – antron, seals fur, dyed carpet underlay (cow hair) all work.         rib : fine dark blue tinsel 3-4 turns depending on size.         thorax: same as body material – just a bit of a hump not execessive.     wingcase: pale electric/iridescent blue feather from the wing of one of               our local Australian parrots (Rosella – Ithink – I pick the                           feathers up in the yard – the advantages of living in the hills         throat hackle: guinea fowl (natural)         NOTES:                 General nymph shaped body.             Weight for heavy water.         Fishing: Large (10) – fished down and across with little crayfishy jerks     in the slower sections.         Smaller – just like a normal nymph – upstream under a dry for an indicator.         It works well in grubby water as well as clear … well down here at least.         I would be pleased to hear about about any similar patterns  that anyone     knows of. steve Melbourne, Australia

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I’ll try to remain calm… I just heard about a guy here in Glenwood Springs that is attempting to get a patent for a new Green Drake pattern that he ‘invented’. I am (almost) physically ill at the thought of this….

The practice of patenting a fly, or patenting the design/materials/methods used in tying one, is not new.  There were British and American patents granted decades ago, and for all I know it has been done under the patent laws of other countries.  I doubt that anyone would begrudge a rodmaker patenting an improved ferrule, or a reel designer patenting a unique drag system.  But there is something about the art, or at least the craft, of fly design that causes us to resist the idea of patents being granted in this area.  You may at least take solace in the fact that fly patents are never likely to have much impact on the market.  If the fly is not effective, the fly fisher will not buy it and the patent holder will not benefit.  If the patented fly is successful (the McMurray Ant comes to mind), its success will likely be due to a design principle that cannot be easily constrained under patent law.  The balsawood-and-monofilament McMurray design really catches fish, but the principle was easily mimicked by closed cell foam-bodied ants, which have the added benefit of being more durable. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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   I think this patent thing is a great idea.  Just think of all the opportunities it will afford thousands of people across America.  I myself can’t wait until its in full scale across the country.  I want to be one of the firt to sign up for "fly patrol".  Just think of it.  I’ll get to travel across the country to its finest streams and rivers and check the fly boxes of each angler I see.  I can see it now.  "Excuse me, sir. Do you have the proper licencing for that Green Drake pattern?" Jason

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Parachute flies were patented at one time, and called "gyros".

Yes indeed!  I have a set of four of these flies, tied on #16 hooks; each has a ginger hackle and a partridge body feather tied in parachute-style. They date from the 1930’s and were sold by Alex. Martin, Ltd. of Scotland. One of the flies has a tiny piece of paper attached to the hook, reading: "Parachute" Reg’d. Trade Mark – Alex. Martin’s Patent 379343. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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        Sounds like the guy has an attitude problem.  I cna’t ever imagine a true flyfisher not wanting to share in his experiences and knowledge.                 Tom <:?

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Just to add to the list of patent fly patterns: I seem to remember that the Teeny Nymph was/is a patented fly, even though I’ve seen tying instructions (dead easy, really) all over the place. — Blair Sharpe Ottawa, ON, Canada

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I’ll try to remain calm… I just heard about a guy here in Glenwood Springs that is attempting to get a patent for a new Green Drake pattern that he ‘invented’. I am (almost) physically ill at the thought of this. I can think of nothing more arrogant.

Unless he’s really got something _outrageous_, the only patent protection available would be a Design Patent.  That means if he got it, he could bring suit to stop someone producing the fly.  In practical terms, read producing it _commercially_.  You, of course, and thousands of others, could be equally arrogant, tie his fly for your own use, and say, "So sue me for infringing your patent."  Getting a patent is a _lot_ easier than enforcing it. This is not legal advice, merely the reality of patents. — John Taylor    (W3ZID)     |  "The opinions expressed are those of the

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Question:

(paraphrased with ADD in mind) is that we’re all given a car to drive, some of us are given a Mercedes, some are given a Yugo.  God knows what kind of car we’re driving and is going to cut us ADDers some slack!

        I’m driving a "Lada". Lada is not accepted by the US car-registration.         That is the problem, not that Lada would be a dangerous car or that         it wouldn’t work.         The point in my illustration is that God accepts and understands, but         people don’t. We can manage well, but we are always causing problems         in the traffic. People with fast cars shout to us. We can/dare use         our car only in small roads, in highways we would be killed. Your         car never brings you success and it always breaks to the roadside. just open their Bible and read until their mind starts wandering, or until they get sleepy, then to try and set a fixed time goal or quantity goal.  When you do that, you may be setting yourself up for failure.  Look upon prayer and Bible reading as something to be enjoyed, not a chore to be endured.

        The Bible doesn’t differ from a normal book in the matter that if you         get in, you can read it for hours. I recommend reading the Bible         through from Genesis to Revelation. Use a translation that is the         most convenient for you, using modern and simple  language. My fellow ADDers, I don’t wish this forum to turn into alt.religion.nausea either, but it sounds like for Jack and for surely for me, our faith helps us live with ADD, and we here have all seemed to respect those things we have all posted that "work for me."  If you haven’t explored your own spirituality, I encourage you to do so, in whatever way feels right for you.  Sometimes its the only thing that brings me any calm.  

        I have strong religious ideas that I don’t share in this forum (the         other newsgroups are for that). If someone wants to discuss with me         about religion in general, you can do that by email.         Religion has helped me very much. I got rid of demons. For those, who         refuse to believe in demons I could say that they were utterly         terrible nightmares with the difference that in normal nightmares         you don’t wake up having wounds all over your body. I think this         psychological stress made my ADD and MBD worse.         —                 Andreas – Siperian Sirri   Siberian Stint Disclaimer: My ideas don’t represent Joensuu University, the pope, MIT, Kiihtelysvaara Cat-raisers club, KGB, Aeroflot, United Arab Emirates or

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| | Who is it that has such control of the life I call my own? | Is there a plan?  Who has it?  Does anyone?   | By what authority must I do this but not this? | And if not able to willfully do such, does He take that which compels me to | disobey – and with it a whole lot more than that?  Or does he not, and thus | I am at a loss to explain that world in which I exist? | | Prepare ye the way of the world.  For that which is – is, and we need not | labor over why, just what and how. | Follow My word and ye shall be rewarded!   | "Allejuiah!"   | But hath I the patience, the strength to endure until then?   | | I am a servant, albeit a lousy one | But must I be a slave as well? | Are ANY earthly pleasures mine to be had? | Or is there meaning only in eternity? | If so, when, WHEN will tomorrow come? | Is that also His and only His to know? | | Why must it be that whatever goes up must come down? | This is just the way it is – but says who? | We see that if one drops a tennis ball, it rises again | only after it has hit the bottom. | But, where is "rock bottom"? | And, am I not a tennis ball?  Perhaps I am an egg instead. | | Is there only one way to find out? | I am too afraid to find out but have no choice! | Lest I take away by force that which was given to me. | But is all that is given His perogative to give then taketh away? | Is it ONLY HIS perogative? | Have I any hope of reaching eternal bliss by my own hand? | | Is there any earthly relief?   | Am I even worthy of such? | Am I a such trash for asking? | Do my own actions explain my suffering? | Am I the one in control of my world?   | Or is it my purpose to surrender control to Him? | | But I am a coward. | I can face neither life nor death. | Yet I know not which is worse. | I hath the guts to endure neither | And so I face nothing | and walk aimlessly along in despair. | |                               -s. troubled | |         OY! Chill out man         Its a great life if you don’t weaken         Have a nice day         My best friend is having a baby         Today is a Solar Eclipse         I have friends         I was just listed in Whos who         My daughter told me a joke that was funny         and didn’t have ANY scatological references         Baltimore Orioles are nesting in my yard         It’s spring         Ronald Regan isn’t President anymore         Beer tastes good         Flying         Fly fishing         Hope         A good joke         Just finished a semester         Reading a good Roger Zelazney         (Add your favorite things here)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The other thing that folks with ADD need to know is that God will accept you as you are.  I’m not trying to do an electronic altar call here, but I think it’s important to mention this because so many people (even, unfortunately, some in churches) do NOT accept ADD people as they are.  It says in the Bible that man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.  People with ADD who try to get active with a Christian group may have the unfortunate experience of coming across someone who thinks they are God’s agent of correction for the wayfaring… the kind who don’t have an ounce of Christian love in them, but who are quite ready and willing to tell you that you need to do certain things and that laziness is sin and so on.  In almost every case you will find as you come to know these people that they are the biggest hypocrites in the church, but unfortunately, many people don’t stick around long enough to find that out… they think "these people hate me!" and vow never to darken the door of that church again!  The

Thanks for saying this, Jack.  C.S. Lewis talks about natural "temperaments" and the like in Mere Christianity and one of his thoughts (paraphrased with ADD in mind) is that we’re all given a car to drive, some of us are given a Mercedes, some are given a Yugo.  God knows what kind of car we’re driving and is going to cut us ADDers some slack! Another thing that ADD people need to beware of are the people who will load you down with all sorts of regulations that you can’t possibly follow.  Often this will come across as something like "If you are REALLY SERIOUS about being a Christian, you will do thus and such!"

Indeed.  The criminal who was crucified with Christ did not have time to "do" anything.  He just asked Jesus to "remember me." and Jesus told him that today he would be with him in paradise.  Just believe.  That’s it. encouraged, but I think many ADD people will find it much easier to just open their Bible and read until their mind starts wandering, or until they get sleepy, then to try and set a fixed time goal or quantity goal.  When you do that, you may be setting yourself up for failure.  Look upon prayer and Bible reading as something to be enjoyed, not a chore to be endured.

Here here. I’m telling you this from personal experience.  Unfortunately, early on in my Christian life I got around too many people who delighted in telling other Christians exactly how to live, down to minute detail… and I can tell you in no uncertain terms that this hurt my Christian walk rather than helping it!  I hold no malice toward those folks; neither they nor I knew that I had ADD, and I think it would have made a difference in how they would have approached me had they known.  And in any case, most of them learned the error of acting in this way, but unfortunately not until they had hurt some people.  I just hope those who were hurt didn’t give up on God.  I’m glad that I didn’t.

My fellow ADDers, I don’t wish this forum to turn into alt.religion.nausea either, but it sounds like for Jack and for surely for me, our faith helps us live with ADD, and we here have all seemed to respect those things we have all posted that "work for me."  If you haven’t explored your own spirituality, I encourage you to do so, in whatever way feels right for you.  Sometimes its the only thing that brings me any calm.   God bless you all!   Nancy

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As a fellow agnostic who has always wanted to find God… I wish you luck.  Gee, if I ever thought I was feeling depressed….;(  Feel better stan. –Rachel It will get better…summer is coming – my brother, Josh

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Please note that this is not an off-the-wall, irrelevent post in an inappropriate newsgroup… there have actually been three or four messages recently in alt.support.attn-deficit that in a roundabout way dealt with this topic, though they did not have this subject heading. If you you are the sort who likes to flame people for talking about God, just hit the "n" key now and spare yourself the effort, because I promine to ignore your nastygram. Having said that, I will point out that what follows should be taken as my opinion.  I’m not a preacher, just a struggling and OFTEN imperfect Christian.  I’m not trying to hold myself up as a role model for anyone.  I believe that churches are (or at least should be) hospitals for sinners, not museums for saints. If you are truly trying to find God, it would seem that the logical place to look would be the Bible.  But there are a couple of pitfalls here, particularly for those with ADD.  In particular, the first time you read the Bible you should NOT start at the beginning.  What will happen is that as you start to read Genesis, you will first come across some things that are hard to understand without having some background, and then you will come across the seemingly endless genealogies that will put you to sleep.  Better to start in the New Testament.  The best place to start for most people is the book of John, but if you really crave excitement you might want to start with the book of Acts.  Not only is the New Testament more relevent to us today, it’s also more current.  If you MUST start in the Old Testament, try starting at something like I or II Kings, or I or II Samuel.  For the most part, you won’t be bored in those books, but you may find some things that are hard to understand at first. And at risk of offending the few diehards who insist that the King James version was good enough for the disciples so it ought to be good enough for you , let me point out that unless you LOVE reading 400 year olde English, you’ll probably find a modern translation much easier to understand… BUT, be careful you don’t get one put out by a particular sect that changes certain verses to promote their theology. I recommend the New International Version (published by Zondervan), if only because the translators came from a wide variety of demoninational backgrounds that for the most part kept denominational bias out.  There are other good modern translations out as well.  I don’t want to argue this point if anyone disagrees, but personally I would steer clear of anyone who insists that there is only ONE version of the Bible you should read (they are probably either in a cult, or at very least they don’t trust that God is able to reveal his truth to you through any version other than the one THEY like!). And if you just can’t get into the thought of reading the Bible right now, but would consider reading a more modern and interesting book, may I suggest you visit your library or a bookstore and ask for a copy of "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis.  This book has been around for close to fifty years now (I think it was written in the ’40’s) but it is as relevent today as ever.  If you’ve been told you have to have "blind faith" and turn off your intellect to understand God (NOT true!) and you can’t accept that, then this is the book for you.  It was one of those books that I was able to easily "hyperfocus" on; I couldn’t put it down! The other thing that folks with ADD need to know is that God will accept you as you are.  I’m not trying to do an electronic altar call here, but I think it’s important to mention this because so many people (even, unfortunately, some in churches) do NOT accept ADD people as they are.  It says in the Bible that man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.  People with ADD who try to get active with a Christian group may have the unfortunate experience of coming across someone who thinks they are God’s agent of correction for the wayfaring… the kind who don’t have an ounce of Christian love in them, but who are quite ready and willing to tell you that you need to do certain things and that laziness is sin and so on.  In almost every case you will find as you come to know these people that they are the biggest hypocrites in the church, but unfortunately, many people don’t stick around long enough to find that out… they think "these people hate me!" and vow never to darken the door of that church again!  The problem is, that was NOT God speaking to you, that was just someone else who is in worse shape than you are (even if they have some position in the church).  Here’s how to test these people, and at the same time avoid making the same mistake yourself:  Read Romans chapter 14.  The entire chapter.  Not just once, but as often as it takes for it to really sink in.  Then measure those people against that chapter. If they are violating the letter and spirit of the Bible with every word of condemnation they utter, don’t let them ruin YOUR relationship with God! Another thing that ADD people need to beware of are the people who will load you down with all sorts of regulations that you can’t possibly follow.  Often this will come across as something like "If you are REALLY SERIOUS about being a Christian, you will do thus and such!" Unless they can show you where this is COMMANDED in the Bible (and not just in one obscure verse, and make sure it’s an actual COMMAND, not an example of something that someone did voluntarily), don’t listen to it, especially if it sounds like an impossible command for you!  For example, some people will tell you that you MUST read the Bible x number of minutes per day, or that you must read a certain number of verses or chapters a day.  The problem is that while this may be what God wants that person to do (and indeed, their life may have been turned around by following that advice), chances are that God did NOT tell them to go out and preach that as a COMMAND to everyone – they just figure that since it worked so well for them, it must work for everyone!  And since everyone is different, what God wants that one person to do may not be what he wants YOU to do.  Make no mistake, prayer is good and Bible reading is good and both are things to be encouraged, but I think many ADD people will find it much easier to just open their Bible and read until their mind starts wandering, or until they get sleepy, then to try and set a fixed time goal or quantity goal.  When you do that, you may be setting yourself up for failure.  Look upon prayer and Bible reading as something to be enjoyed, not a chore to be endured. I’m telling you this from personal experience.  Unfortunately, early on in my Christian life I got around too many people who delighted in telling other Christians exactly how to live, down to minute detail… and I can tell you in no uncertain terms that this hurt my Christian walk rather than helping it!  I hold no malice toward those folks; neither they nor I knew that I had ADD, and I think it would have made a difference in how they would have approached me had they known.  And in any case, most of them learned the error of acting in this way, but unfortunately not until they had hurt some people.  I just hope those who were hurt didn’t give up on God.  I’m glad that I didn’t. The last thing I would say is that when you are ready to start attending church, don’t be afraid to try several until you find the one that you feel the presence of God in (but please, don’t confuse man-made enthusiasm with the presence of God, they are two quite different things!).  If you pray and ask God to show you to the right church, He will… BUT it may not necessarily be the first church you walk into.  You may have to try several. ADD people have to be careful of three types of churches:  First, the type where the services are so predictable and boring that you find yourself counting the ceiling tiles.  Second, the ones that are so legalistic and narrow that you will be condemned as being lazy, crazy, or stupid (a.k.a. "foolish") before they even know you.  You need spiritual help; that’s why you’re there, and if all they can offer is condemnation, they’re blinder than you are (in a spiritual sense) and will be of no help to you whatsoever!  Third, the cults.  The problem here is that the cults often tend to know exactly what’s wrong with the other churches, and therefore they will go out of their way to be both exciting and interesting, BUT they twist the scriptures to suit their own purposes (which are often to make money for the people highest in the cult hierarchy).  In addition, following their teachings will NOT secure eternal life for you (at least not in any place you’d want to spend eternity).  I’m getting dangerously close to preaching here, which I said I wouldn’t do, but I do think it’s important to KNOW where you will spend eternity after you die… and that’s all I’ll say about that here. There is a passage in the Bible, in the book of Matthew (chapter 11, verses 28-30) that I think is especially appropriate for those with ADD that are seeking God.  Jesus is speaking, and he says, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.  Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.  For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Jack Jack Decker   |   "What were once options are now mandates!" Please note:  Some days I get lots of e-mail.  On such days, I read it all, but don’t personally respond to all of it due to lack of time.

Response:

Who is it that has such control of the life I call my own? Is there a plan?  Who has it?  Does anyone?   By what authority must I do this but not this? And if not able to willfully do such, does He take that which compels me to disobey – and with it a whole lot more than that?  Or does he not, and thus I am at a loss to explain that world in which I exist? Prepare ye the way of the world.  For that which is – is, and we need not labor over why, just what and how. Follow My word and ye shall be rewarded!   "Allejuiah!"   But hath I the patience, the strength to endure until then?   I am a servant, albeit a lousy one But must I be a slave as well? Are ANY earthly pleasures mine to be had? Or is there meaning only in eternity? If so, when, WHEN will tomorrow come? Is that also His and only His to know? Why must it be that whatever goes up must come down? This is just the way it is – but says who? We see that if one drops a tennis ball, it rises again only after it has hit the bottom. But, where is "rock bottom"? And, am I not a tennis ball?  Perhaps I am an egg instead. Is there only one way to find out? I am too afraid to find out but have no choice! Lest I take away by force that which was given to me. But is all that is given His perogative to give then taketh away? Is it ONLY HIS perogative? Have I any hope of reaching eternal bliss by my own hand? Is there any earthly relief?   Am I even worthy of such? Am I a such trash for asking? Do my own actions explain my suffering? Am I the one in control of my world?   Or is it my purpose to surrender control to Him? But I am a coward. I can face neither life nor death. Yet I know not which is worse. I hath the guts to endure neither And so I face nothing and walk aimlessly along in despair.                               -s. troubled

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