Question:

<snip Nice read, Sam. — TL, Tim

Response:

Howdy Sam     As a sometime resident of Pa. i have a camper in Coburn close to Penns Creek wife is from Scranton where would this lovely little stream be i would like to check it out. Email me if you want.                    Handyman Mike           Standing in a river waving a stick

Response:

I finished up my summer vacation at my boyhood home in eastern Pennsylvania late in the evening of July 3. I planned to rise before dawn on Independence Day and fish my favorite little creek. [HISTORIC ASIDE] I fished this creek as a boy some twenty five years earlier. Then, it was at best, marginal water.  Smelly, appearing nearly devoid of anything alive, and in places, algae nearly choked the stream due to phosphate pollution from industry far upstream. But it had trout, and I could walk there. Twenty five years ago that’s all I needed. In the intervening years, I went off to college, moved several times, got married, and had several jobs. I visited the creek whenever I got back home. Never to fish, just to try to recapture some of those boyhood memories I guess.  Over the past 6 or 7 years, I noticed that the smell had gone and so did the algae. Not surprising, since the upstream industry, and all the related jobs, disappeared. That is why most of my contemporaries and I left the area in the first place. Over the past 3 years, I was able to follow stocking reports, Pennsylvania state water reports and even fishing reports via the internet.  The stream was definitely on the mend. In fact, recently it was supposed to be removed from the list stocked streams due to a "Class B or better designation, and sizable wild trout population" according to the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission (PAFBC). The decision to not stock was later reversed because of a public outcry. Knowing some of the history of this stream, and knowing some of the troubles of the PAFBC, I was skeptical to say the least. [END OF HISTORICAL ASIDE] Before dawn came and went (as it sometimes does) and I was still in bed. However, I was on the creek by 6:00am. It was already hot, opressively hot. I was to pay dearly for that extra hour of sleep. Should have gotten up at 4:30 like the alarm clock said. It was the tail end of week long 90+ degree streak. The water had a good flow but promised little relief from the heat. As I entered the water, I was pleasantly surprised by the cool press of my breathables against my bare legs.  Stream thermometer read 66 degrees, not too shabby! I waded upstream about 100 yards or so, and stood in an ankle deep riffle. I gazed upstream at a 50 yard stretch of knee deep flat water, with another riffle at the head. There were about a dozen fish rising in front of me.  I could not tell what they were feeding on, but I did notice that most of the bugs I saw were gray. So I tied on a #16 gray EHC. There were at least two fish between the biggest riseform and myself, and it was under a low hanging branch.  Not going to get that one. I decided to cast to the closest one, which I spooked after a few casts.  I crept forward to cast to the next one that was still feeding.  On the second cast, there was a kamakazee rise to my fly.  As I set the hook, I thought "little fish, big ones don’t crash that hard…probably not a trout anyway". I had it, or wait, did it have me? It was not quite the little fish I imagined. After a savage but brief fight, I brought a beautifully colored, fully finned, and yes, wild 15 inch brown trout to hand. After a quick and admiring look, I released it, and it darted upstream.  I was so happy I laughed out loud. I waited for about 15 minutes for the fish to start rising again, but they never did.  It was 7:45am, and the heat was intensifiying.  I briefly though of moving on upstream, but then thought I should just go home. Landing more fish on that day would make me no happier.

Response:

Question:

I was looking at those before everyone suggested that stocking foot was the way to go.. Any second thoughts from you guys?

Only one. For the coldest conditions (winter tailwater fishing, goose hunting in a blizzard, etc.) you can’t beat the warmth of a pair of 5 mm neoprene bootfoot waders. But for anything else, I’d go with a pair of stocking foot waders with a good pair of wading boots. How cold is it where/when you plan to use them? — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

Lou, Like somebody else mentioned, it all depends on where you plan to fish. As for myself, fishing on freestone creeks and doing a good bit of walking, I am a big fan of stockingfoot waders and good wading boots. Reducing the risk of a sprained ankle far outweighs the extra five minutes or so it takes to put them on. Bob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greg I was looking at those before everyone suggested that stocking foot was the way to go.. Any second thoughts from you guys? Lou FWIW: Cabelas has a lace up bootfoot model this year too.   I see that they’re a heck of a lot cheaper,  and the boots (from the small photo) look  like they might provide better ankle support.

Response:

Wayne & Others Wet wading, even in late summer is not much of a option here in Michigan’s Western UP. The streams and rivers run cold. The trout seem to like it but a guy can freeze his ass off in these waters…..

Granted, it may not be for everyone, but I’ve often waded wet in the various branches of the Ontonagon, Cook’s Run, Big and Little Carps, the Paint, the Fence, both Brules, the Firesteel, several of the Irons, the Sturgeon, and a host of others in the western UP. You get used to it after a while.     Wolfgang numb nu…….well, never mind.

Response:

Wolfgang You R tougher than me.   I’ve tried fishing the SalmonTrout river in nylon windpants and  rubber sandals. Goddddd that water is cold. I need waders! BTW,,you were less than an hour from my home so if you wander this way again send me a E mail first. If you do I’ll buy you a beer and maybe we could consider fishing together. Lou

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wayne & Others Wet wading, even in late summer is not much of a option here in Michigan’s Western UP. The streams and rivers run cold. The trout seem to like it but a guy can freeze his ass off in these waters….. Granted, it may not be for everyone, but I’ve often waded wet in the various branches of the Ontonagon, Cook’s Run, Big and Little Carps, the Paint, the Fence, both Brules, the Firesteel, several of the Irons, the Sturgeon, and a host of others in the western UP. You get used to it after a while.     Wolfgang numb nu…….well, never mind.

Response:

Greg Over the past year I often loaded  Cabelas Dry Plus bought waders, a chest pack, change of cloths, and some pop into a mid size pack. I’d catty a old wicker creel over one shoulder and carry my rod in a case. I don’t think the whole thing weighted 30 pounds and was no big deal to hike in with. I want to thank everyone here for their advice but I noticed that Cabelas had my old Dry Plus Breathable bought on sale for $100. I probably went fishing 100 + times last year and sure got my money’s worth and liked my old waders. I guess habit/ low price over comes good sense so I bought another pair today.. Lou

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was looking at those before everyone suggested that stocking foot was the way to go.. Any second thoughts from you guys?  I spend at least half of my fishing time in water  under 50 degrees or on beaches.   The laced  bootfoots have worked out quite well for that.  They are also easier to deal with: one piece  instead of the 3-5 (counting guards) that I would  be sure to forget one or more of.  The max distance that I have hiked in one day  is probably no more than 4-5 miles.  If I were  going to do some serious off-road hiking to get  to fishing water, I’m pretty sure that I would opt  to carry the waders in, since it would be inevitable  that I would destroy them otherwise (but first I  would have to have some serious work done on  one knee…).  The one disadvantage I  have in using bootfoots is  that I can’t switch between felt and studded soles.  So I used corkers for a while, which I couldn’t stand.  More recently I bought a pair of what looks like old-  fashioned galoshes with studs and a drawstring that  I slip on over the bootfeet (I think that Dan Bailey  distributes them).   They’re much more comfortable  and easy to slog through water in than corkers, but  I don’t believe that they work as well – too much metal  on the bottom so weight isn’t concentrated as well –  and the metal is quite soft, so it is abrading rather  quickly.  I’m pretty sure that I am going to buy another pair  of laced bootfoot waders soon and outfit one pair  with studs.

Response:

HIYA guys I’ve always used bootfoot waders but I wonder if I’d be better off with stockingfoot. What do you folks use and why? Lou

Response:

HIYA guys I’ve always used bootfoot waders but I wonder if I’d be better off with stockingfoot. What do you folks use and why?

Stockingfoot allows you to wear a custom boot that has the best fit (including laces), and also to change boots.

Response:

HIYA guys I’ve always used bootfoot waders but I wonder if I’d be better off with stockingfoot. What do you folks use and why? Lou

Stocking foot are best all around for convenience and comfort.Boot foot are best for cold water winter fishing and for fishing the beach.Why choose, it’s best to have both. Regards,  Flypaint(Shawn)

Response:

Hi Lou, I have sold/fitted waders to anglers and hunters for 37 years now, but we specialize in waders for fly fishers now. Today in California we sell 100% stocking foot chest high breathable waders for fly fishing. A few years ago we sold only stocking foot neoprene waders and light weight non-breathable stocking foot waders. Boot foot waders are faster and easier to put on, but you don’t get the ankle support that you get with a lace up boot on a stocking foot wader  for walking long distances in trout streams. Also, it is hard to really fit people well with boot foot waders because you need to get the chest/body size right first, then the right inseam length and then the right boot size. We use to sell neoprene boot foot waders a little, but had them "custom" fitted. If you could order boot foot waders with your body size, inseam length and then a good boot fit, they are great for those fast situation where you don’ walk a lot. The story on hip boots is that everyone I know that has fished with me over the years has gone in over the top during a day of fly fishing in Northern California. It is either chest high stocking foot breathable waders or wade wet in northern California in the summer. We sell a few waist high waders a year now but with the onset of breathables it is not as necessary as it was with non-breathables. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HIYA guys I’ve always used bootfoot waders but I wonder if I’d be better off with stockingfoot. What do you folks use and why? Lou

Response:

HIYA guys I’ve always used bootfoot waders but I wonder if I’d be better off with stockingfoot. What do you folks use and why? Lou

        stockingfoot.  because we wade wet down here after mid april, and thus need protection from the ankle up very infrequently.  if you ever hiked up to the middle falls on snowbird in late july, in even "breathable" chest high waders, you’d fully understand. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

HIYA guys I’ve always used bootfoot waders but I wonder if I’d be better off with stockingfoot. What do you folks use and why? Lou stockingfoot.  because we wade wet down here after mid april, and thus need protection from the ankle up very infrequently.  if you ever hiked up to the middle falls on snowbird in late july, in even "breathable" chest high waders, you’d fully understand.

Quick word of caution…walking in shorts through briars and scrub that scratch the legs…then standing in biota rich pond water is a recipe for some interesting rash and infection…the notion of keeping alcohol pads back at the truck is a good one. — TBone Walker The Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Guys Thanks to all of you who offered advice. I trust  the wisdom of this NG and will invest in some stocking foot waders and boots. BTW..I live in the Michigan’s Upper Peninsula, my old 5mm cold weather/ ice in the  river  waders are still in good shape but my summer ones are shot. I very often pack in my gear including waders on my back and them get organized streamside. Thanks again.. Lou

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HIYA guys I’ve always used bootfoot waders but I wonder if I’d be better off with stockingfoot. What do you folks use and why? Lou stockingfoot.  because we wade wet down here after mid april, and thus need protection from the ankle up very infrequently.  if you ever hiked up to the middle falls on snowbird in late july, in even "breathable" chest high waders, you’d fully understand. Quick word of caution…walking in shorts through briars and scrub that scratch the legs…then standing in biota rich pond water is a recipe for some interesting rash and infection…the notion of keeping alcohol pads back at the truck is a good one. — TBone Walker The Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Quick word of caution…walking in shorts through briars and scrub that scratch the legs…then standing in biota rich pond water is a recipe for some interesting rash and infection…the notion of keeping alcohol pads back at the truck is a good one. — TBone Walker The Halfordian Golfer

Taking a bottle of alcohol along to the stream has proved more popular it seems. TL MC

Response:

Quick word of caution…walking in shorts through briars and scrub that scratch the legs…then standing in biota rich pond water is a recipe for some interesting rash and infection…the notion of keeping alcohol pads back at the truck is a good one. — TBone Walker The Halfordian Golfer Taking a bottle of alcohol along to the stream has proved more popular it seems.

I was refering to the ‘optional’ variety. — TBone Walker The Halfordian Golfer

Response:

FWIW: Cabelas has a lace up bootfoot model this year too.

I was looking at those before everyone suggested that stocking foot was the way to go.. Any second thoughts from you guys?

I don’t have a second thought – I still prefer stocking foot.  For all the reasons previously mentioned, plus the EEEE show size I need<g. –Stan

Response:

For what it is worth, the latest cabela’s catalog has laceup boot foots as well. Chris Richer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wet wading, even in late summer is not much of a option here in Michigan’s Western UP. The streams and rivers run cold.  Same in western NY and Ontario. The trout seem to like it but a guy can freeze his ass off in these waters. Going to take all the good advice and set up with stocking foot + boots.  Before you do you might want to take a quick look  at Orvis’s breathables with lace-up boot foots.

– Chris Richer chrisratnostormspamdotca

Response:

Greg I was looking at those before everyone suggested that stocking foot was the way to go.. Any second thoughts from you guys? Lou

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FWIW: Cabelas has a lace up bootfoot model this year too.   I see that they’re a heck of a lot cheaper,  and the boots (from the small photo) look  like they might provide better ankle support.

Response:

Why Lou!  That’s for your annual bonefish trip to the Keys! Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wayne & Others Wet wading, even in late summer is not much of a option here in Michigan’s Western UP. The streams and rivers run cold. The trout seem to like it but a guy can freeze his ass off in these waters. Going to take all the good advice and set up with stocking foot + boots. Lou

Response:

 Before you do you might want to take a quick look  at Orvis’s breathables with lace-up boot foots.

FWIW: Cabelas has a lace up bootfoot model this year too.

Response:

Wayne & Others Wet wading, even in late summer is not much of a option here in Michigan’s Western UP. The streams and rivers run cold. The trout seem to like it but a guy can freeze his ass off in these waters. Going to take all the good advice and set up with stocking foot + boots. Lou

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For may of the reasons already stated, go stocking foot.  Besides being able to change boot types and properly fit the boot, you can wet wade sans waders with a good boot in hot climes; maximum versatility.  As Bill recommended; go with breathables. Considere neoprene socks when wet wading with boots and keep in mind, some boots like Chota Brookies have removable insoles for use with and without waders. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine! HIYA guys I’ve always used bootfoot waders but I wonder if I’d be better off with stockingfoot. What do you folks use and why? Lou

Response:

… they are composed of poly-cotton with layers of codura on the knees and ass.  that’s because if you aren’t on the former when you fish, you aint gonna catch any of the latter, in hazel creek.

I fished all day on Hazel Creek, was on my knees most of the time and I STILL didn’t catch any ass. Need another lesson from the master, I guess. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

For may of the reasons already stated, go stocking foot.  Besides being able to change boot types and properly fit the boot, you can wet wade sans waders with a good boot in hot climes; maximum versatility.  As Bill recommended; go with breathables. Considere neoprene socks when wet wading with boots and keep in mind, some boots like Chota Brookies have removable insoles for use with and without waders. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HIYA guys I’ve always used bootfoot waders but I wonder if I’d be better off with stockingfoot. What do you folks use and why? Lou

Response:

No reason you can’t use quick-dry long pants.  They even make ones that have zip-off bottoms (i.e. convertible to shorts.)

        actually, my "fishing pants" are what were originally designed as warm weather bird hunting pants:  they are composed of poly-cotton with layers of codura on the knees and ass.  that’s because if you aren’t on the former when you fish, you aint gonna catch any of the latter, in hazel creek.         what the hell, it’s after 6, and it’s been a long day. wayno

Response:

Quick word of caution…walking in shorts through briars and scrub that scratch the legs…then standing in biota rich pond water is a recipe for some interesting rash and infection…the notion of keeping alcohol pads back at the truck is a good one.

No reason you can’t use quick-dry long pants.  They even make ones that have zip-off bottoms (i.e. convertible to shorts.)

Response:

stockingfoot.  because we wade wet down here after mid april, and thus need protection from the ankle up very infrequently.  if you ever hiked up to the middle falls on snowbird in late july, in even "breathable" chest high waders, you’d fully understand.

Good point.  I have used my wading boots without waders on quite a few occasions.

Response:

Question:

I’m planning a 9 day flyfishing trip to the northern Calif area and plan to visit areas like  Hat Creek, McCloud, Truckee, Owens, etc. When would be the best time to do this between early August and October? Thanks.

Response:

Skiroc,    Any time after school starts. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a 9 day flyfishing trip to the northern Calif area and plan to visit areas like  Hat Creek, McCloud, Truckee, Owens, etc. When would be the best time to do this between early August and October? Thanks.

Response:

To minimize backroad travel. I would checkout deer hunting seasons on the places you are going. FWIW, if you are going to fish Hat Creek, and maybe wonder on East and fish Fall River, then I suggest you head on East to Alturas in California’s most Northeast county then go South on 395 to Likely California and go East into the Warner Mountains Wilderness area.  They have a Red Band strain of the McCloud Rainbow that is truly a magnificent fish to catch and release. There are a number of lakes and streams in the area that are an easy hike in with float tube.  Due to the sensitive nature of the habitat of these very special animals, this is all of the info I’ll post but for more info e-mail me. Compared to the hordes of folk at Hat Creek, Truckee and Walker, this area will knock your socks off at the lack of people.  I think Alturas, the county seat of Lompoc county has, uh 3 stoplights?  This beautiful part of the West (NW Nevada, SCentral Oregon NE California) is remote 4×4, tent camping off the road fishing on small high mountain streams and high country lakes. Unlike those other places, when the jokers run out of Powerbait here, there aint no 7/11 nearby! Enjoy! John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a 9 day flyfishing trip to the northern Calif area and plan to visit areas like  Hat Creek, McCloud, Truckee, Owens, etc. When would be the best time to do this between early August and October? Thanks.

Response:

Question:

I am in the market for a trailerable boat in the 22-26 foot range to be used in the ocean around the Channel Islands to mostly cruise and dive from.  I don’t really do that much fishing but would use it do dive but also be comfortable to sleep preferably up to 4 people.  I have always liked the Skipjacks and heard they are good in the ocean and enjoy the fly bridge.  I am looking for a good solid sea-worthy craft.  Single engine or double, im open on that.  Would love to take it someday up to the inner waterways up North of Washington and do a nice trip that way. Any recommendations on makes and models would be greatly appreciated. James

Response:

Expensive, but nice.  Davis Boats in Morro Bay.  Rock Harbor 36. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am in the market for a trailerable boat in the 22-26 foot range to be used in the ocean around the Channel Islands to mostly cruise and dive from.  I don’t really do that much fishing but would use it do dive but also be comfortable to sleep preferably up to 4 people.  I have always liked the Skipjacks and heard they are good in the ocean and enjoy the fly bridge.  I am looking for a good solid sea-worthy craft.  Single engine or double, im open on that.  Would love to take it someday up to the inner waterways up North of Washington and do a nice trip that way. Any recommendations on makes and models would be greatly appreciated. James

Response:

OOPs Make that the Rock Harbor 25.  Bad fingers. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Expensive, but nice.  Davis Boats in Morro Bay.  Rock Harbor 36. Bill I am in the market for a trailerable boat in the 22-26 foot range to be used in the ocean around the Channel Islands to mostly cruise and dive from.  I don’t really do that much fishing but would use it do dive but also be comfortable to sleep preferably up to 4 people.  I have always liked the Skipjacks and heard they are good in the ocean and enjoy the fly bridge.  I am looking for a good solid sea-worthy craft.  Single engine or double, im open on that.  Would love to take it someday up to the inner waterways up North of Washington and do a nice trip that way. Any recommendations on makes and models would be greatly appreciated. James

Response:

Question:

BTW Dave you have obviously forgotten the true king of sportfish the steelhead. I’ll take their tail walking antics and consecutive 100 yard screaming runs anyday Stevo the braggart Have you hooked a chinook?

Yup, up to 45 lbs. (unfortunately I have yet to get a real big one), but they rarely break the surface, preferring to sulk deep and do their running near the bottom. Unbelievable power though. Of  the species I’ve caught ( I admit to being an Atlantic virgin), steelhead are the most unpredictable, one second they are sulking deep, the next the line is slack and they are doing five or six consecutive jumps and then off for another long run right on the surface. unbelievable! Stevo the experienced (yah right)

Response:

Now why would those in the east want to stock those damn silly, wimp western salmon that only procreate once then leave their rotting, stinking carcasses in the water, when they have their own robust salmon that can procreate many times? Chris Richer (east of the flat spot) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW Dave, being a naive westerner (we don’t get out much) which landlocked "introduced from the great waters of British Columbia" species are we talking about? Stevo the wanderer (NOT) <g Dave L.

Response:

Steve Cooper: <<BTW Dave, being a naive westerner (we don’t get out much) which landlocked "introduced from the great waters of British Columbia" species are we talking about? Ouananiche.  The Atlantic Salmon that is land-locked.  It’s also known as the Lake Salmon.  The largest I have caught was about 7 pounds, but I have heard of much bigger fish, especially in Labrador and Quebec.  It didn’t come from BC either.  <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

Yup, up to 45 lbs. (unfortunately I have yet to get a real big one), but they rarely break the surface, preferring to sulk deep and do their running near the bottom. Unbelievable power though.

I’ve seen plenty of hooked chinook jump & splash.  Saw a 20+ lber come about 3 feet out of the water last Thursday on the Pere Marquette in Michigan.  Maybe the fish here are different.  They tend to darken up really quick.  I’ve seen lots of photos of silver fish caught out of western rivers. Mu

Response:

Ouananiche.  The Atlantic Salmon that is land-locked.  It’s also known as the Lake Salmon.  The largest I have caught was about 7 pounds, but I have heard of much bigger fish, especially in Labrador and Quebec.  It didn’t come from BC either.  <g

Is that the Sebago Lake strain?  Also, what’s a Sunapee? Mu

Response:

Mu Young: <<Is that the Sebago Lake strain?  Also, what’s a Sunapee? No.  Not coming out of lakes/rivers in Labrador! I believe the Sunapee is actually a land-locked Arctic Char (Salvelinus alpinus).  It’s called the Blueback Trout in some Maine waters. Dave

Response:

Yup, up to 45 lbs. (unfortunately I have yet to get a real big one), but they rarely break the surface, preferring to sulk deep and do their running near the bottom. Unbelievable power though. I’ve seen plenty of hooked chinook jump & splash.  Saw a 20+ lber come about 3 feet out of the water last Thursday on the Pere Marquette in Michigan.  Maybe the fish here are different.  They tend to darken up really quick.  I’ve seen lots of photos of silver fish caught out of western rivers. Mu

  That’s only because its alot easier to jump out of your waters and tailwalk, being so full of chemicals and all <g…. Hey look on the bright side another 10 years or so and you won’t even need a boat to go fishing on the "lakes" "lake michigan…..too thick to drink, too thin to plow" Stevo the troller

Response:

Steve Cooper: <<BTW Dave, being a naive westerner (we don’t get out much) which landlocked "introduced from the great waters of British Columbia" species are we talking about? Ouananiche.  The Atlantic Salmon that is land-locked.  It’s also known as the Lake Salmon.

Oh you mean those big trout (genus Salmo) The largest I have caught was about 7 pounds, but I have heard of much bigger fish, especially in Labrador and Quebec.  It didn’t come from BC either.  <g Dave LaCourse

  Cheers

Response:

Steve Cooper: <<Oh you mean those big trout (genus Salmo) Yep!  One and the same.  <g

Response:

Steve Cooper: <<Oh you mean those big trout (genus Salmo) Yep!  One and the same.  <g

Ah hell before you know it I’ll be able to catch those on the West coast as well. Just let our salmon farms screw up and have a few more large escapements like the 30,000 yearlings that just escaped a Port McNiel farm, or the 60,000 smolts involuntarily released in Washington’s Puget Sound, and we may have to beat these things off our lines just to get at a good natural wild salmon.

Response:

BTW Dave you have obviously forgotten the true king of sportfish the steelhead. I’ll take their tail walking antics and consecutive 100 yard screaming runs anyday Stevo the braggart

Have you hooked a chinook? Ian Scott http://flyfishing.about.com/

Response:

Have you hooked a chinook?

No, but I did once know a guy who tried to drown a brown, get nookie brom a brookie, and pass a bass!

Response:

I did’nt forget them.  It was about Atlantic salmon, "King of the Sportfish".  I agree about steelies.  They are one of the best (of course)! Land locked salmon are also right up there.  Although they don’t get too big in Maine, they are a ball to watch tail walking. (I hope this doesn’t start a thread:  *MY* fish is better’n your fish!

But,… but,… but…. my fish IS better than your fish…… and my dad can so nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah nyah. BTW Dave, being a naive westerner (we don’t get out much) which landlocked "introduced from the great waters of British Columbia" species are we talking about? Stevo the wanderer (NOT) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <g Dave L.

Response:

Sheldonn Michael Pardy writes: <<If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day. Uhhhhhh, you fought a 10 pound fish for 1 1/2 hours?  What ever happened to the old rule of a pound a minute?  I realize Atlantic Salmon are the fighters of all time, but an hour and a half.  Seems exceedingly long, sir.  I will agree about the bass, however. Dave L.

 Dave Not just exceedingly long, but lethal as well. Although Atlantics are well known for both their fighting prowess and tenacity towards survival, this fish if released was probably dead shortly thereafter. The lactic acid buildup in the muscular tissues (remember that salmonids are basically on BIG muscle) would likely have been lethal. Nothing to be particularly of, Sheldon. BTW Dave you have obviously forgotten the true king of sportfish the steelhead. I’ll take their tail walking antics and consecutive 100 yard screaming runs anyday Stevo the braggart

Response:

1.5 hours? You are full of shit. Next time you take an assignment as a flack, learn how to lie creditably. Dave

Response:

Steve Cooper: <<BTW Dave you have obviously forgotten the true king of sportfish the steelhead. I’ll take their tail walking antics and consecutive 100 yard screaming runs anyday I did’nt forget them.  It was about Atlantic salmon, "King of the Sportfish".  I agree about steelies.  They are one of the best (of course)! Land locked salmon are also right up there.  Although they don’t get too big in Maine, they are a ball to watch tail walking.   (I hope this doesn’t start a thread:  *MY* fish is better’n your fish! <g Dave L.

Response:

David Snedeker, the scribe, writes: <<1.5 hours? You are full of shit. Next time you take an assignment as a flack, learn how to lie creditably. ROFL.  Don’t mix your words, David.  Tell the fool *exactly* what you think of him.  That’s what I love about you, David; you are about as subtle as a nuclear weapon.  <g Dave L. (the calm Dave)  d;0)

Response:

One and a half hours to land a ten pound fish???  I think, perhaps, that you need a bit heavier outfit.  If you want to be in a position to release salmon and steelhead in some degree of health, you have to get them in and released in a lot less time.  I suspect that your ten pound Atlantic Salmon was one that you kept.  If not, I doubt if he lived very long after being released. Barry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day.

Response:

        If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day.

Response:

Sheldon, Sounds like fun. When is the best time to go? Bob Elliott, Rochester, NY – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day.

Response:

        If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. …

I’d love to. When the provincial government repeals those pernicious guide laws I’ll drop a dime in Newfoundland and Labrador too. Until then, I won’t fish there. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 3 – Tar Heels 1

Response:

Hey, Something fishy here.  If you took that long to land a little 10 pounder, you were abusing the fish and probably harming its chances of survival (assuming that you released it). Regards, Yuji Sakuma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day.

Response:

Sheldonn Michael Pardy writes:

<<If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day. Uhhhhhh, you fought a 10 pound fish for 1 1/2 hours?  What ever happened to the old rule of a pound a minute?  I realize Atlantic Salmon are the fighters of all time, but an hour and a half.  Seems exceedingly long, sir.  I will agree about the bass, however. Dave L.

Response:

Response:

<a bunch of stuff he should have proof read first!!!!! Not just exceedingly long, but lethal as well. Although Atlantics are well known for both their fighting prowess and tenacity towards survival, this fish if released was probably dead shortly thereafter. The lactic acid buildup in the muscular tissues (remember that salmonids are basically on

<<<that should be ONE not on BIG muscle) would likely have been lethal. Nothing to be particularly of, Sheldon.

That should be "not particularly PROUD of, Sheldon" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW Dave you have obviously forgotten the true king of sportfish the steelhead. I’ll take their tail walking antics and consecutive 100 yard screaming runs anyday Stevo the braggart

Response:

Question:

I’m looking for a source of small plastic boxes with lids – about an inch or an inch & a half square.  Any of you shop owners have an idea? Thanks in advance for any information. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT

Response:

Al- Tap plastics has a group of parts boxes in non-shatter milky whie color for somewhere in the realm of 15-25 cents each..they also ahave some 1 inch cubes and 1×2, 2×2 in crystal clear and assorted other colors in the 35 to 75 cent range…best I’ve seen! Larry Medina  #:)#

Response:

Question:

When in doubt, go with the fun stuff. Buy the fishing outfit. Chances are you’ll use it more and longer. Mike T. — WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Club & Race Listings 200+ listings. Advertise your race. Club Home Pages. http://www.catalog.com/webrun/running/running.html

Response:

Neither–Get yourself a good set of Golf clubs! Everone has taken up flyfishing, and the courses are almost empty. For exercise, carry your own clubs and jog,that"ll keep that ticker pumpin.There are beautiful courses everywhere,except Idaho.The chemists have destroyed the good grass in that state, with all those potato experiments. This is a joke–Don’t want to piss off any Idaho golfers.

Response:

I have both.  Believe me, I can cast a lot farther with a fly rod.

Response:

My birthday is in a couple of days and I expect to get some money.  I have decided to give due regard to the advice from the good folks at rec.running and rec.outdoors.fishing.fly. Where to spend my money?

Two answers:         When you are older and your lower body is a cantidate for complete skeleton replacement from marathoning your hips, ankles, and knees into mush. You will really appreciate the first-class fly rig. A heart rate monitor will just be junk by then.         Flip a coin. If you dislike the outcome you’ll know you’ve been playing a game with yourself.                 Bob

Response:

I am a novice marathoner who fishes.  I’ve run one marathon this year (Napa Valley) and would like to improve my time for the Portland Marathon by using a heart rate monitor.  I also enjoy fishing.  I have some backpacking fly equipment but I would like to let my elitest-self shine with a real fly fishing outfit. Where to spend my money? Steve, run out and buy yourself a fly fishing outfit… David E. Malone All opinions expressed are my own.

Steve, Its apparant your training is suffering from a lack of obsession. I refer you to Calvin and Hobbes from about two weeks ago.  T Training with a monitor lets you micro  analyze your pperformance with the goal being to satisy such standards as your training log and other people who wear monitors. Also there’s a coolness factor related to who might be impressed by the purchases.  Fish or friends?   I have trained with a monitor for a year.  Has it helped?  Got me. It is a diversion and something to do on those long runs. Steve Rogers When the going gets tough, blah, blah, blah

Response:

[deleted] : My birthday is in a couple of days and I expect to get some money.  I : have decided to give due regard to the advice from the good folks at : rec.running and rec.outdoors.fishing.fly. Neither…buy a pair of Reabok Pumps and go fishing…then, if you fall in, your feet will float up and someone will be able to spot you. Tim Walker

Response:

You ask whether to buy a heart rate monitor or a fly fishing outfit? Definitely the flyfishing outfit.  Enjoying it will lower your heart rate

Just don’t start flyfishing in the midst of the heavy hatches…you may end it all holding your breath for that monster to suck  in YOUR fly instead of the natural inches from it. Steve D.

Response:

I am a novice marathoner who fishes.  I’ve run one marathon this year (Napa Valley) and would like to improve my time for the Portland Marathon by using a heart rate monitor.  I also enjoy fishing.  I have some backpacking fly equipment but I would like to let my elitest-self shine with a real fly fishing outfit. Where to spend my money?

Look to the future and buy the fly rod.  I have a sister and two brothers who ran marathons and they are now virtually crippled (not  really, but they get sore knees).  I have flyfished instead for 25 years and feel as good as ever. Watch your backcast on that elitist stuff. Believe it or not, this can be the cheapest way to fish other than zebco and hand dug bait. I fished for years with a $10 St.croix and $2 reel and flies tied mostly from free knitting samples.   Now that I have some disposable income I do my best to keep a few local fly shops in business, but fancy tackle adds little to the value of the experience of getting a mile or ten away from the crowds and finding some wild trout, then tricking them, admiring their brilliant beauty, then releasing or cooking them. I think the heartrate monitor is just going to cause you excess worry about the fine tuning of your body, but does this really relax you?    What does it add to your life?   How does it relate to your future personna as geezer? If you start flyfishing regularly now, you’ll have a great recreational life that will last as long as you will.  Youngsters will much rather hear your fishing stories than running stories.  By flyfishing you can do your part to honor your elders while preparing youself to become a great one. This youth stuff is just a passing trend; give up holding onto it and go fishing!  You have  little chance of winning any major marathons but a virtual guarantee of mastering our fine sport, since you have email. You can get that same sense of well-being and accomplishment by hiking half that far and fishing a day or two.  If you really crave that burn, drive over to the east side of the sierra in late July or August this year and hike straight up to 11,000 ft and fish for Goldens. If you still aren’t tired, carry my pack too. Once the runoff settles down this will be a great year here in California. Get the fly rod. mark vinsel Visit my gallery: http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.HTML

Response:

: [deleted] : : My birthday is in a couple of days and I expect to get some money.  I : : have decided to give due regard to the advice from the good folks at : : rec.running and rec.outdoors.fishing.fly. : Neither…buy a pair of Reabok Pumps and go fishing…then, if you : fall in, your feet will float up and someone will be able to spot you. And if the shoes don’t fit, Reebok Pumps make dandy strike indicators. Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

Response:

Get both. Many new runners pack up when they find that it takes discipline and effort to get fit. There are many HRMs lying dormant in people homes unused. I’ve just bought one for 10 pounds second hand. Look in your local paper I’m sure you’ll find one. Simon — Simon Walsh    

Response:

: Wierd title?  So is my dilemma: : I am a novice marathoner who fishes.  I’ve run one marathon this year : (Napa Valley) and would like to improve my time for the Portland : Marathon by using a heart rate monitor.  I also enjoy fishing.  I have some : backpacking fly equipment but I would like to let my elitest-self shine : with a real fly fishing outfit. : My birthday is in a couple of days and I expect to get some money.  I : have decided to give due regard to the advice from the good folks at : rec.running and rec.outdoors.fishing.fly. : Where to spend my money? : Steve My vote is for the flyfishing gear.  As a bonus I offer you my "cheap" heart rate monitor:   If you’re breathing, its beating.  If you’re not breathing, it’s probably stopped (or will shortly). (sippinElkMountainAmberAleandrootinfortheBarracudainLongBeachCalifornia wheretheearthmovesundermyfeet)

Response:

: Neither–Get yourself a good set of Golf clubs! Everone has taken up : flyfishing, and the courses are almost empty. For exercise, carry your : own clubs and jog,that"ll keep that ticker pumpin.There are beautiful : courses everywhere,except Idaho.The chemists have destroyed the good : grass in that state, with all those potato experiments. : This is a joke–Don’t want to piss off any Idaho golfers. Hey, hey, hey!!!  Whatchit buddy.  This state still has the fighting words law.  That means I can bust you in the chops for saying such things and all the cops will do is make fun of your glass jaw or my right hook! Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

Response:

Wierd title?  So is my dilemma: I am a novice marathoner who fishes.  I’ve run one marathon this year (Napa Valley) and would like to improve my time for the Portland Marathon by using a heart rate monitor.  I also enjoy fishing.  I have some backpacking fly equipment but I would like to let my elitest-self shine with a real fly fishing outfit. My birthday is in a couple of days and I expect to get some money.  I have decided to give due regard to the advice from the good folks at rec.running and rec.outdoors.fishing.fly. Where to spend my money? Steve

Response:

I am a novice marathoner who fishes.  I’ve run one marathon this year (Napa Valley) and would like to improve my time for the Portland Marathon by using a heart rate monitor.  I also enjoy fishing.  I have some backpacking fly equipment but I would like to let my elitest-self shine with a real fly fishing outfit. Where to spend my money?

Steve, run out and buy yourself a fly fishing outfit… David E. Malone All opinions expressed are my own.

Response:

If you often overtrain, get the HRM.  If you need more protein, get the fishing equipment.  Otherwise, you’ll just have to decide for yourself. — Ray Charbonneau    | MIT Library Systems| Everyone is entitled to my opinion.  *Disclaimer? Why?*|

Response:

Buy the fly fishing gear and go have fun.  You’ll be more relaxed for your training and will in turn run farther and faster.  Besides, I’ve not yet met a marathon runner who has trained with a heart rate monitor, so I’m sure you can train hard enough to improve your time without one.   Buy the heart rate monitor next year, and don’t go out too fast in Portland, as the crowds during the first part of the race might make you go faster than you should. Best fishes, Dan

Response:

You ask whether to buy a heart rate monitor or a fly fishing outfit? Definitely the flyfishing outfit.  Enjoying it will lower your heart rate so low you won’t have to worry about a heart rate monitor…..

Response:

Question:

: Just started fly fishing this past fall ( mostly Greate Lakes Steelhead ). : This Saturday is the opening day of trout season here in NY. : I was hoping someone could recommend some patterns that may work this : early in the season on hatchery type ‘put and take’ type rainbows : ( we don’t practice the ‘take part’ ). —PCR         For stockers some of the classics flies are the best:  Gold Ribbed Hare’s Ear’s, Adams, Wulff dries, Wooly Worms, and Wooley Buggers.  For the nymphs and the dries, you want to fish big, like size 12 and 14.  You can also use stonefly nymphs or hellagrammites in sizes 6-10.  Stocked fish often just like something they can see.  Glo bugs should work alright on the stockers.

Response:

Early season flies that work great in the Syracuse area are pheasant tail, both bead headed & traditional, picket pin, wooly bugger (various colors), and G.R. Hares ear. P.S. on Sunday, I saw some Quill Gordon duns flirting about on Limestone Creek here in Syracuse. G.R. Hares Ear should work, sizes 16, 18. PH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just started fly fishing this past fall ( mostly Greate Lakes Steelhead ). This Saturday is the opening day of trout season here in NY. I was hoping someone could recommend some patterns that may work this early in the season on hatchery type ‘put and take’ type rainbows ( we don’t practice the ‘take part’ ). Have been having alot of success using glo-bugs and frammus patterns on 3 – 10 pound Rainbows but aren’t sure what to use on the smaller (10 – 12 inch ) stockers.   Thanks in advance PCR

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just started fly fishing this past fall ( mostly Greate Lakes Steelhead ). This Saturday is the opening day of trout season here in NY. I was hoping someone could recommend some patterns that may work this early in the season on hatchery type ‘put and take’ type rainbows ( we don’t practice the ‘take part’ ). Have been having alot of success using glo-bugs and frammus patterns on 3 – 10 pound Rainbows but aren’t sure what to use on the smaller (10 – 12 inch ) stockers.   Thanks in advance PCR

On the 10 -12 inch stockers , you should use PELLET FLIES!!!!!!                Greg

Response:

Woolly Buggers are killers for the stockers.  Black, Olive and "Grizzly" colors are great.  Purple & Black have worked great, too. And, if you really want to catch a stocker out of a put &take stream, tip your wooly bugger with a berkley power grub (eek, did he say "BAIT"?) Yep.  If you want to catch fish. Jim Elias Blue Grass IA H.Y.M.R.

Response:

Just started fly fishing this past fall ( mostly Greate Lakes Steelhead ). This Saturday is the opening day of trout season here in NY. I was hoping someone could recommend some patterns that may work this early in the season on hatchery type ‘put and take’ type rainbows ( we don’t practice the ‘take part’ ). Have been having alot of success using glo-bugs and frammus patterns on 3 – 10 pound Rainbows but aren’t sure what to use on the smaller (10 – 12 inch ) stockers.   Thanks in advance PCR

Response:

Question:

Normally I just give any fish I catch a slurp of beer before I let it go.   Sometimes a puff off my Cuentes Fuega, if I’m really in a good mood. Tim Walker

Most of the fish I catch prefer a fine Macanudo, but I’ve noticed no preference for any particular beer. Grant  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Bob feeding wild trout in Montana may not make the F&G happy but its makes : us who release them smile. Write me on e-mail about feeding trout because :                                                                     Bryant : Blewett STOP IT  !!! STOP IT RIGHT NOW DAMMIT !!!   Feeding Wild Trout ? You *MUST* be joking, RIGHT ?!?!? This really, really irritates me and I’ll flame until the damn cows come into the barn.  What are you trying to do here ?  Be ‘nice’ to the little fishies ?  What do you want…do you want them to come around like little collies when you get home from work ? You wanna *FEED* wild trout ?  Stay out of the damn river bed and let the little 400 per sq feet caddis worms make it to another instar.  You wanna be ‘nice’ to the fishie…don’t handle it at all out of the water. I’m sorry, but IMHO this is a really stupid idea. Tim Walker

Have to agree with Tim.  This bizarre practice, of which I have not heard until joining this newsgroup, smacks of trout training.  Now granted, most of us enjoy fishing for non-native species in non-natural environments (e.g., rainbow and brown trout in tailwater areas), so decrying the practice as ‘unnatural’ may be pointless; still, once you have shocked a fish’s system as hard as we do when we catch them, it seems outrageous to think that force-feeding them a grub before release can do anything but hurt them.  If you need to "pay the gods" or in some other way assuage your guilt about this sport, I suggest thinking seriously about what happens when we fish.  The bottom line is this:   Fishing KILLS FISH, whether we release them or not.  A 4% mortality rate on released fish seems like wishful thinking; and even if true, that’s 4 dead fish for every hundred you release.  It seems like some twisted form of denial to claim that we are helping trout by fishing for them.   Our "help" is a by-product of the fact that we care so much about them. Trying to obscure the fatal nature of our sport shows, I think, a lack of responsibility for our actions.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Forgive me if this thread has come and gone…I haven’t seen it in the approx. six months I’ve been on the net. Whilst flipping through one of my many catalogs (Orvis? Cabela’s?) I came across the "accessories" page and found all of those ludicrous gadgets that no one in their right mind should pay money for like long handled bug nets, mesh mits to wear on your hand to "sift the drift", etc.  This section also contained what looked like one of those basting tubes you use to baste your turkey, i.e. it looks like a large plastic medicine dropper.  This contraption turned out to be a stomach pump, used to check out what a fish was eating without chopping it up. I had heard that these things were out there, but had never seen one before and it got me thinking…how many people actually use such things?  Is the act of pumping out a fish’s stomach traumatic to the fish?  My guess is that the potential is there to do some serious damage.  Why would you use one of these things, anyway…if you’ve caught a fish, then you are using an imitation that looked enough like what the fish wanted to eat, enough to fool the fish, anyway.      Besides, isn’t much of the fun in flyfishing the mental aspects of solving the puzzle of what the fish are eating (and getting a reasonable facsimile in front of them)? Using one of these things seems to me a lot like doing a crossword puzzle by copying the solution from the back of the book. However, this concern of mine is secondary to my concern for the welfare of a pumped out fish.  Any thoughts? Paul DiConza       NY Capital District Angler

After reading this, my first reaction was if the fish wasn’t tramatized by the pump, then he probably had a reduced chance of surviving due to having an empty stomach and having to fill it again. This got me to thinking…. I know it’s weird, but what if before you release a fish you drop a food pellet or something similar into it’s gullet? A caught fish has to expend energy to fight, and if we are releasing fish, we want them to survive. Won’t their chances of survival be increased if we feed them before we release them? Maybe a fisheries biologist can concoct a high protien multi-vitamin pellet to give the fish before it’s released. Perhaps we can tip the scales in favor of survival instead of making the fish use precious energy needed for making through the next winter. Any comments? Darryl

Response:

 A feeding frenzy breaks the placidity of the surface as wild voracious brown and rainbows(B.W.-Before Whirl) attack the pellets like blues on shad. He is prepared with his double pom pom chow fly he just bought at the Orvis

.shop.  He casts.  Hooks.  Lands.  He has to beach the 11" brut. Use cigarrete butts, they float well and their free. (accept at Orvis)

Response:

: Normally I just give any fish I catch a slurp of beer before I let it go.   : Sometimes a puff off my Cuentes Fuega, if I’m really in a good mood. C’mon, you’re just blowing smoke up our…gills. Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

Response:

STOP IT  !!! STOP IT RIGHT NOW DAMMIT !!!   Feeding Wild Trout ? You *MUST* be joking, RIGHT ?!?!? This really, really irritates me and I’ll flame until the damn cows come into the barn.  What are you trying to do here ?  Be ‘nice’ to the little fishies ?  What do you want…do you want them to come around like little collies when you get home from work ? You wanna *FEED* wild trout ?  Stay out of the damn river bed and let the little 400 per sq feet caddis worms make it to another instar.  You wanna be ‘nice’ to the fishie…don’t handle it at all out of the water. I’m sorry, but IMHO this is a really stupid idea. Tim Walker

    Tim, you seem to be a bit upset.

Response:

I have been giving C&R fish nice fat grubs for the last several years. My only problem is, how do I explain to the game warden that "no I was not using bait…." On some rivers, you get to know some of the regular large trout.  Some guys bring in food, or toss peices of their lunch to these fish.  Peices of bologna, or wounded grasshoppers found on shore.  They just toss the food to the fish swimming in the river.  Somehow this seems a little more humane  and a lot easier.

And in some states, this could be called "chumming" and is illegal. IMHO, the practice doesn’t make sense anyway.  After being caught, a fish will be tired and scared, and the last thing it wants to do is eat dinner. It usually wants to go hide in a hole and recover for a while. A properly played fish shouldn’t need an extra meal to survive. — Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado       "Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."                                             – T.S. Eliot

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Is the act of pumping out a fish’s stomach traumatic to the fish?   I don’t think anyone in their right mind would think they could do this on a fish to be released, …. Are these things marketed for use on fish to be released? Mark Vinsel Mark, you make a good point which I hadn’t thought about.  I just assumed that stomach pumps were in fact marketed for fish to be released.  It never occurred to me that one would want to use a pump on a dead fish…. Paul DiConza

I’ve seen fly fishing videos that demonstrate the use of a stomach pump on fish to be released, and that are fully expected to live.  I feel that there are many things that a flyfisher can do to increse a fish’s chances of survival, and certainly the less a fish is handled the better.  I try to release a fish at my feet while it is still in the water, by just grasping the fly and giving a quick little backwards twist.  I rarely touch a fish at all unless I plan to keep it.  On the other hand I am sure that those who use a stomach pump on a fish are trying to inteligently study the eating habits of the fish they catch, while still giving the fish a "good" chance of survival.   I hope the fish do survive, and I think that most could, if the angler is conscientious about all aspects of the catch/pump/and release process.  Let’s try not to be to hasty about condemning others about their fishing beliefs.   After all, those who don’t fish at all give the fish a much higher chance of survival.  Where does that place us on the rightousness continuum? Provo, Utah

Response:

I don’t know, and I maybe putting my foot in my mouth, but I have read several books and articles about using stomach pumps on fish.  Some scientists say that if you are careful (and quick), using the pump will not hurt the fish in the slightest. -Paul *                       *    "To catch a river unguarded is less a        * * Paul "Cousin" Graham   *    matter of where to look than of when, and   * *                          *  I have a secret time."-Ted Leeson           *

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Is the act of pumping out a fish’s stomach traumatic to the fish?   Yes, unless the fish was dead first. I don’t think anyone in their right mind would think they could do this on a fish to be released, especially considering the clear correlation between small time out of water and death rate. I often check the contents of fish I keep, and it is fascinating. I have found two different fish caught from the same section of the same lake at the same time, each gorged with a different specific nymph. I have also set the contents in a cup of water over a weekend trip and watched most of the nymphs come back to life and hatch. A pump is not necessary. Are these things marketed for use on fish to be released? Mark Vinsel

Mark, you make a good point which I hadn’t thought about.  I just assumed that stomach pumps were in fact marketed for fish to be released.  It never occurred to me that one would want to use a pump on a dead fish, when it is so easy to examine the contents of the stomach when the fish is cut open. Maybe some people are too squeamish?!  However, in the back of my mind I seem to recollect a story I read where people were using these things on live fish and releasing the fish to die in the river.  I hope this practice isn’t widespread. Paul DiConza NY Capital District Angler

Response:

Are these things marketed for use on fish to be released?

Yes!  I think it’s a cruel hoax on both fisherfolk and fish to even sell these things.  Now that I’m thinking about it, I beleive I shall send a letter to all my FF supliers and ask them to discontinue carrying them.  If you want to kill and eat a fish, feel free to examine it’s innards.  If you are going to let it go, then please do your best to insure that your efforts are rewarded with the fish surviving so I can catch it later.  Factors that have been shown to improve survival of C&R fish are:         1.      Use barbless hooks.         2.      Use single point hooks.         3.      Use artificial baits (eg flies)         4.      Handle the fish as little as possible         5.      Avoid taking the fish out of water Good luck, and may you get lots of practice in the art of C&R. . Lenny Bloksberg . .

Response:

I agree that pumping the inerds of a fish is nasty and mean thing to do. Also, I imagine that it takes a lot of good fishing time away. Are we on the stream to peer into the gizzards of a lovely fish or enjoy the environment and …  Of course, if you’re trying to retrieve a fly… –grant

Response:

… Is the act of pumping out a fish’s stomach traumatic to the fish?  

Yes, unless the fish was dead first. I don’t think anyone in their right mind would think they could do this on a fish to be released, especially considering the clear correlation between small time out of water and death rate. I often check the contents of fish I keep, and it is fascinating. I have found two different fish caught from the same section of the same lake at the same time, each gorged with a different specific nymph. I have also set the contents in a cup of water over a weekend trip and watched most of the nymphs come back to life and hatch. A pump is not necessary. Are these things marketed for use on fish to be released? Mark Vinsel May the wild ones live, and may their progeny break the tippets of our grandchildren. Visit my gallery: http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.HTML

Response:

Forgive me if this thread has come and gone…I haven’t seen it in the approx. six months I’ve been on the net. Whilst flipping through one of my many catalogs (Orvis? Cabela’s?) I came across the "accessories" page and found all of those ludicrous gadgets that no one in their right mind should pay money for like long handled bug nets, mesh mits to wear on your hand to "sift the drift", etc.  This section also contained what looked like one of those basting tubes you use to baste your turkey, i.e. it looks like a large plastic medicine dropper.  This contraption turned out to be a stomach pump, used to check out what a fish was eating without chopping it up.       I had heard that these things were out there, but had never seen one before and it got me thinking…how many people actually use such things?  Is the act of pumping out a fish’s stomach traumatic to the fish?  My guess is that the potential is there to do some serious damage.  Why would you use one of these things, anyway…if you’ve caught a fish, then you are using an imitation that looked enough like what the fish wanted to eat, enough to fool the fish, anyway.      Besides, isn’t much of the fun in flyfishing the mental aspects of solving the puzzle of what the fish are eating (and getting a reasonable facsimile in front of them)? Using one of these things seems to me a lot like doing a crossword puzzle by copying the solution from the back of the book. However, this concern of mine is secondary to my concern for the welfare of a pumped out fish.  Any thoughts? Paul DiConza     NY Capital District Angler

Response:

Question:

Well in that case I would like your opinion about it. I have tried it myself, when I ran out of my usual ‘oily-rings-on-the-water-stuff’, and man was I disappointed. Sure, it worked beautifully. For a couple of seconds. But when the fly once been drown, it stayed submerged. I followed then instructions to dry the fly and put some more of that powder on, but this time the fly didn’t even seem to notice the surface. I think the name of the stuff was ‘Dry n Shake’. Bloody expensive too…     Gink forever…./ Hans

Response:

Well in that case I would like your opinion about it. I have tried it myself, when I ran out of my usual ‘oily-rings-on-the-water-stuff’, and man was I disappointed. Sure, it worked beautifully. For a couple of seconds. But when the fly once been drown, it stayed submerged. I followed then instructions to dry the fly and put some more of that powder on, but this time the fly didn’t even seem to notice the surface. I think the name of the stuff was ‘Dry n Shake’. Bloody expensive too…    

I’ve tried Dry Shake this summer and found that it worked fine when fishing in calm water. In moving water the powder  rinsed away to fast. I found out that you must make the fly as dry as possible before putting the stuff on it again. It worked for me. But I’m only using Dry Shake in  calm water. It is very expensive though  (100 Skr for 25 gram).. I’m still looking for the ultimate dry fly floatant! /Mikael — Mikael Andersson                        Ericsson Telecom AB Phone: +46 8 7190794                    KK/ETX/T/BDH Fax:   +46 8 6812626                    S-126 25 Stockholm

Response:

writes: Well in that case I would like your opinion about it. I have tried it myself, when I ran out of my usual

‘oily-rings-on-the-water-stuff’, and man was I disappointed. Sure, it worked beautifully. For a couple of seconds. But when the fly once

been drown, it stayed submerged. I followed then instructions to dry the fly and put some more of that powder on, but this time the fly didn’t even seem to notice the surface. I think the name of the stuff was ‘Dry n Shake’. Bloody expensive too…     Gink forever…./ Hans

If this is the same "Shake’n Dry" stuff that I use, it isn’t meant to be a floatant, it’s supposed to dry off a drowned fly. You have to reapply your favorite floatant after it’s dried. By the way, this stuff is ordinary silica gel dessicant. You can get the same stuff for about 5 bucks (US) a pound at hobby shops. They use it for drying flowers and such. One pound will last you for a lifetime (or get together with some of your fisherman friends and split the cost) the only other thing you need to get is a suitable container (but you already have one since you bought Shake’n Dry). This stuff also works great for cul de canard flies, since you can’t use floatant on them. Darryl

Response:

Have you tried the powder dry fly floatant?   Nntp-Posting-Host: eplu04 Organization: Erisoft AB Umea Sweden Lines: 9 Well in that case I would like your opinion about it. I have tried it myself, when I ran out of my usual ‘oily-rings-on-the-water-stuff’, and man was I disappointed. Sure, it worked beautifully. For a couple of seconds. But when the fly once been drown, it stayed submerged. I followed then instructions to dry the fly and put some more of that powder on, but this time the fly didn’t even seem to notice the surface. I think the name of the stuff was ‘Dry n Shake’. Bloody expensive too…     Gink forever…./ Hans

I have had a similar experience with the dry powder. However, I have found a flotant which is superior, for me, to Gink or Dave’s…. I do a lot of my fly on backpacking trips in the High Sierra of California, where it is pretty cold in the morning. I find Gink, etc. to be VERY viscous to the point of not flowing. I have found some silicone based flotant in Andy Puyan’s fly shop, Creative Sports, in Pleasant Hill Califorinia, which was developed by one of Andy’s fly tying students. The student was a chemist at Dow in nearby Pittsburg, CA. This stuff is the consistency of honey at any temp between 25 and 105 degrees F. I’ts called Andy’s flotant & it works really well for me. Rick Najarian

Response:

I do a lot of my fly on backpacking trips in the High Sierra of California, where it is pretty cold in the morning. I find Gink, etc. to be VERY viscous to the point of not flowing. I have found some silicone based flotant in Andy Puyan’s fly shop, Creative Sports, in Pleasant Hill Califorinia, which was developed by one of Andy’s fly tying students. The student was a chemist at Dow in nearby Pittsburg, CA. This stuff is the consistency of honey at any temp between 25 and 105 degrees F. I’ts called Andy’s flotant & it works really well for me.

Can you give an address/phone number? — Rick

Response:

I do a lot of my fly on backpacking trips in the High Sierra of California, where it is pretty cold in the morning. I find Gink, etc. to be VERY viscous to the point of not flowing. I have found some silicone based flotant in Andy Puyan’s fly shop, Creative Sports, in Pleasant Hill Califorinia, which was developed by one of Andy’s fly tying students. The student was a chemist at Dow in nearby Pittsburg, CA. This stuff is the consistency of honey at any temp between 25 and 105 degrees F. I’ts called Andy’s flotant & it works really well for me. Can you give an address/phone number? — Rick

Dear RW, The shop is: Creative Sports 1924 #C Oak Park Blvd. Pleasant Hill, CA 94253 (510) 938-2255 P.S. "Andy" is Andy Puyans of the "A.P. Nymph series" & this is his fly shop. Naj

Response:

FYI, the guides I’ve talked to in Montana and the Eastern Sierras swear by "Aquel" by Loon.  It seems to hold its consistency well in the heat.

Response: