Question:

And, there are plenty of obnoxious people who aren’t wealthy. Snoop

Is it really necessary or proper to talk about me behind my back in a public forum? Op

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Nothing funny about that IMO.

I didn’t say *you* would think it was funny. <g But I do. Kind of like moving to a whorehouse to be around pretty girls – you have to put up with the occasional customer. — Charlie…

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  I fished the Bighorn on Wed & Thurs.

I’m jealous! Usually, I get over there for a few days this time of year, but it doesn’t look like I’ll make it this spring. I have no idea how one would go about fishing a dry with all of the stuff on the water.

I’ll occassionally use a parachute-style with a flourescent orange post. You might be surprised. There were some dirty orange scuds and one black leach about 3 inches long.

Streamers. Big, ugly, heavy streamers… on a sink-tip…swinging and stripping….swing and stripping (could be new lines for another song, Warren) We saw a few sports at the cafe that were really decked out.

You gotta love Polly’s! A great place to eat…..and probably the only place in the state where they’d look at you funny if you WEREN’T wearing waders. I’ll bet the pressure is on the guides to get these high rollers some fish. Kevin and I derived some perverse pleasure in catching fish right in front of the high rollers while the guide was trying to help them get a cast out at least 10 feet:)

There is NOTHING more frustrating than to have fish slurping away in front of you and your people just CANNOT put it together to get the fly past the oar. AAARRRGGGHHH! On a side note: Did they all have on the big "hair ball" "bazooka blobs" "exploding fireworks" kinda strike indicators that you can see for a gazillion feet??? — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno 406-626-4022

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I’ll occassionally use a parachute-style with a flourescent orange post. You might be surprised.

  Good idea.  I should have thought of that.  I did have one fish come close to taking my flor. green strike indicator.  I’ll give it a try next time I go. You gotta love Polly’s! A great place to eat…..and probably the only place in the state where they’d look at you funny if you WEREN’T wearing waders.

  I like it because it’s a cheap place to stay in the off season.  The food’s pretty good, too, but a little overpriced.  I had the steak sandwich Wed. night.  It was really good but didn’t "sit well" and I was up half the night.  Meat tenderizer?  The really cheap rooms at the cafe were booked so Kevin and I got the trailer.  That costs $36.00/head but it was nice and roomy.  I think you could sleep 8 or 9 people there but I’ll bet they close it up and winterize for the off season. On a side note: Did they all have on the big "hair ball" "bazooka blobs" "exploding fireworks" kinda strike indicators that you can see for a gazillion feet???

  Yes, there were quite a few of those on the river.  I tried them once and didn’t like them.  I use the larger foam floats with the slit down the side and a piece of rubber through the center.  They seem to cast better for me, are easily adjustable and always float.  What’s the deal with the giant fluff balls?  No wonder so many people have trouble casting in the wind.  Wouldn’t they get along better with the more streamlined floats?   Also, as a guide, do you have any humorous stories to tell?  I think most guides must earn every penny.  Looks like a tough life to me.  Also looks like a good way to turn an enjoyable hobby into drudgery. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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I didn’t say *you* would think it was funny. <g But I do. Kind of like moving to a whorehouse to be around pretty girls – you have to put up with the occasional customer.

Well, whatever floats your boat there Charlie.

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Well, whatever floats your boat there Charlie.

I don’t think it’s my boat that’s bothering you… — Charlie…

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Nothing funny about that IMO. I didn’t say *you* would think it was funny. <g But I do. Kind of like moving to a whorehouse to be around pretty girls – you have to put up with the occasional customer.

As one of the very people you described (first visited here for the fishing and camping, then moved here for the fishing and camping), I agree with you that it’s funny.  What’s even funnier is that we don’t really mind the tourists, despite our griping, as long as they remain tourists.  What really, really, really annoys us is when they want move here like we did. JR

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As one of the very people you described (first visited here for the fishing and camping, then moved here for the fishing and camping), I agree with you that it’s funny.  What’s even funnier is that we don’t really mind the tourists, despite our griping, as long as they remain tourists.  What really, really, really annoys us is when they want move here like we did.

You should see how annoyed the whorehouses get under similar circumstances ! TL MC

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As one of the very people you described (first visited here for the fishing and camping, then moved here for the fishing and camping), I agree with you that it’s funny.  What’s even funnier is that we don’t really mind the tourists, despite our griping, as long as they remain tourists.  What really, really, really annoys us is when they want move here like we did.

That’s funny. How about it, Warren? Do you have a come back? (I’m saying that as an unapologetic, recent, fair-weather Idaho transplant.) Where do you live, JR? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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 What really, really, really annoys us is when they want move here like we did.

Yep. I hope to share that feeling about someplace, someday. <g — Charlie…

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Where do you live, JR?

Bend, Oregon, which was a wonderful place before I arrived, became a true paradise on earth for a while after I got here, and is now a stinking hell hole, altogether a far, far less attractive place than many I can think of in Idaho and Montana. JR

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As one of the very people you described (first visited here for the fishing and camping, then moved here for the fishing and camping), I agree with you that it’s funny.  What’s even funnier is that we don’t really mind the tourists, despite our griping, as long as they remain tourists.  What really, really, really annoys us is when they want move here like we did. You should see how annoyed the whorehouses get under similar circumstances !

I dunno, amateur night at the local is always an " uplifting " experience. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TL MC

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That’s funny. How about it, Warren? Do you have a come back? (I’m saying that as an unapologetic, recent, fair-weather Idaho transplant.)

Yeah I have a come back.  You got to draw the line somewhere so I move that we start with RW. ~ Seriously though, JR is right to some degree.  When you move somewhere and become accustomed to a certain quality of living, you have to do what you can to protect it.  If I moved to an area because it was remote, had everything that I wanted and the very reasons why I moved here were threatened due to overcrowding, you better believe I am going to bitch when things start getting crowded. Most of it isn’t so much the number of people but the quality around here. Californians are equated as being liberal tree huggers who want their 20 acre "ranch" along the river and despise the stream access laws.  It is somewhat true, but there are a lot of people from back East who are far worse in my experiences.  It is a more a quality of the people coming issue. Natives don’t give me any crap for being an ex resident of California because I hold many of the same views as they do and am not a threat to the quality of life. Now that I am a resident and have been for several years, am bound to this valley by blood that I cannot leave, I am somewhat trapped.  I do not make any money off tourism and never have.  Tourists decend in hoards upon the rivers that I fish year around and force me to either brave the masses or fish somewhere else.  It doesn’t bother me too much because I don’t go the rivers where I feel like I can’t fish.  I have plenty of places to fish, even on the crowded rivers, that see fewer people. In some areas it is a problem and that isn’t just me saying that.  That is the opinion of users of the resources when polled by the DFW.  The Beaverhead is a prime example of that.  I think I told the story about how I was there opening day last year and the place was so crowded you couldn’t even find a campsite.  Two Montana plates, the rest from out of state. My take on this, and Charlie can laugh if he wants to, is that I am a resident.  I pay taxes here, I live here, the water was deeded over to the state by the federal government (if you need legal citings, I can provide them).  It is property of the state, not the union.  Our state Constitution is not applicable to residents of other states in regards to property.  Just like you don’t go by Montana property laws if you live outside of Montana and we don’t go by other state’s laws.  Being a resident and being governed by the state Constitution and the laws of Montana, I should have a greater right to the water than someone from out of state.  It is a right under our Constitution, BTW. I am not calling for an outright ban on out of state anglers or anything like that, just some limits so that residents of this state can enjoy what is theirs once in a while.  I was hoping they were going to either give river permits on a limited basis on crowded waters to out of state anglers, or set aside certain days for residents.  There is only one river that I have fished where this is necessary and that is the Beaverhead.  The Big Horn is a much larger river and even when crowded, I have never felt like I was lacking water to fish.  Same thing on the Madison.  I find there is plenty of water to fish and only a few areas that are really crowded to the point where there are problems and the quality of the experience is diminished due to the crowds.  The whole issue of crowds is a seasonal case anyways.  I always have the winters to enjoy being one of the few people on a river, if not the only person. That’s my story and I am sticking to it. <g — Warren Findley Shut up and fish! For Yellowstone Clave info: http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/YNP.html

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Bend, Oregon, which was a wonderful place before I arrived, became a true paradise on earth for a while after I got here, and is now a stinking hell hole, altogether a far, far less attractive place than many I can think of in Idaho and Montana.

That’s just an outright lie.  Idaho is the best place to be.  Montana is scorched Earth, whirling disease desimated trout streams, New Zealand mud snail infested, and dirt poor.  Idaho on the other hand isn’t as bad off. Oregon is the best place in the world to be though.  They have good paying jobs, excellent hunting and their fishing is one of the best kept secrets in the lower 48. HTH — Warren Findley Shut up and fish! For Yellowstone Clave info: http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/YNP.html

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Bend, Oregon, which was a wonderful place before I arrived, became a true paradise on earth for a while after I got here, and is now a stinking hell hole, altogether a far, far less attractive place than many I can think of in Idaho and Montana. That’s just an outright lie.  Idaho is the best place to be.  Montana is scorched Earth, whirling disease desimated trout streams, New Zealand mud snail infested, and dirt poor.  Idaho on the other hand isn’t as bad off. Oregon is the best place in the world to be though.  They have good paying jobs, excellent hunting and their fishing is one of the best kept secrets in the lower 48. HTH

Well, there’s another damnable lie (about Oregon, the Calcutta of the West), but at least it’s offset by the God’s honest truth about Idaho: the new Jerusalem, brothers, an Elysian utopia with trout the size of snowmobiles and blissful citizens (of the very highest ethical standards, mind you) ready to welcome their fellow sportsmen with open arms.  Every fishing and hunting guide a nubile ex-cheerleader who makes Angie look like Howard Stern.  Every publican and shopkeeper a source of freely shared information– earned over a lifetime–about honey holes where the steelhead chase each other off in order to be the first to impale themselves on your hook. Fishing in Oregon?!?!  Oh, my.  A long time ago, maybe.  Now you could catch more fish out of the average toilet bowl in New York City, son.  And even that was before the Terrible Drought of 2001, a sure harbinger of impending ecological collapse.  These days, before you can tie on a fly in Oregon you have to file an environmental impact statement.  Hell’s bells. Everyone *here* is moving to Idaho! JR

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It’s also funny to see people who live in states that make a bunch of money from tourism bitch about tourists, especially the ones who were tourists there once themselves. <g

I don’t make any money off of tourism either directly or indirectly and haven’t been any tourist related industries.  I moved to Montana without ever coming as a tourist.  I got accepted to school out here, had relatives who used to live out here and moved based on pictures, school, and their opinion of the place, and the promises of good fishing and hunting.  I am now a legal resident, have been for 5 years, I was married here, my daughter was born here and I am trapped here until my daughter gets older.  Nothing funny about that IMO. — Warren Findley Shut up and fish! For Yellowstone Clave info: http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/YNP.html

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A few more trips and you will have a new definition of crowded.  Glad you caught lots of fish, always makes the trip more enjoyable.  I hear you on the high rollers who can’t cast.  Catching fish in front of them is always a blast and I am happy you got that experience

  Oh, yeah, you have some experience being in a boat with a tyro who couldn’t cast, don’t you?  Did your "line welts" heal up?   I’m afraid I came off anti elitist.  It’s not any of my business how much someone wants to spend on their hobby.  They aren’t any different from you or me.  They just want to have fun.  Of course, they can buy a lot more fun than a lot of us:)  Still, I can’t help suffering from some smug satisfaction when I catch fish on my $40.00 Three Forks while they flail away with their $2,500 bamboo rods.  (Heck, I’m still trying to save money for one of G’s moderately priced bamboo rods.)  Once I get my last daughter out of college I may be able to splurge a bit.  My goal in life is to end up like Charlie—-80 rods with a deluxe reel for each one.  But, I won’t take it as far as he does.  You know, long finger nails, long gray beard and hair, sleeps with all his rods, wears a white gown and sprays everyone and everything with disinfectant spray and designs large, wooden airplanes:) Snoop —

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The ones that crack me up are those that think their money will get them fish.  My buddy that guided in Idaho last summer had some stories about several rich, stuck up people who didn’t want to learn how to do things the right way, but thought that the gear they bought and the money they spent on a trip guaranteed them success.  Money does not equate with skill or success and it is hard for these people to realize that.  When I see them out there flailing the water into a froth giving dirty looks to their guides as if it is his fault, I get a laugh.  Especially after I pull out fish right in front of them.  It isn’t that I am against people with money who fish, hell I fish with RW don’t I?

  Anyone, wealthy or not, who goes to the expense and time to travel to fish with a guide and doesn’t take local advice gets what they deserve. I have a good friend who guided in Alaska for 20+ years.  Had a couple of jet boats and a Cessna 180 on floats.  He guided hunters and fishermen.  We’ve sat around a few campfires and listened to his stories.  Very interesting.  The hunters were the worst.  Generally, the fishermen were easier to be around.  The bear stories were hair raising and I don’t think I care to fly with any Alaska bush pilots.  (Well, actually, I don’t like flying with anyone else but my friend who’s a retired 747 pilot.) It is the attitude of the rich, stuck up snobs that I enjoy tweaking.  I have met several people who had tons of money out fishing and were actually very eager to learn and asked lots of questions.  Those types of people I like, very down to earth and just willing to learn because they love fly fishing.  It is the ones who have to announce to an entire fly shop that they need to use their Platinum card to buy half dozen flies as if we should be impressed that they have a Platinum card that piss me off, the ones like Peter posted about at one of the fly shops he goes to with the guy’s buddy looking at a reel, etc.  I enjoy watching them suffer when they go fishless because they are too stubborn and stuck up to listen to the "hired help" or "riff raff".  They are out there and certainly do exist.  I have found the Big Horn to have a high concentration of those types of people.

  Yep, those are the people who rub me the wrong way.  But, they’re not necessarily rich.  A lot of those clowns are up to their necks in credit card debt and are one pay check away from losing cars, houses and their mistresses.  And, there are plenty of obnoxious people who aren’t wealthy. Snoop —

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 I enjoy watching them suffer when they go fishless because they are too stubborn and stuck up to listen to the "hired help" or "riff raff".  They are out there and certainly do exist.  I have found the Big Horn to have a high concentration of those types of people.

It’s also funny to see people who live in states that make a bunch of money from tourism bitch about tourists, especially the ones who were tourists there once themselves. <g — Charlie…

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My goal in life is to end up like Charlie—-80 rods with a deluxe reel for each one.  But, I won’t take it as far as he does.  You know, long finger nails, long gray beard and hair, sleeps with all his rods, wears a white gown and sprays everyone and everything with disinfectant spray and designs large, wooden airplanes:)

    That’s my late uncle Howie you’re describing. I helped him write his will, but I don’t want to be like him.

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  Oh, yeah, you have some experience being in a boat with a tyro who couldn’t cast, don’t you?  Did your "line welts" heal up?

Yeah, the line welts went away and the lump from getting nailed by split shot and bead heads eventually went away also.   I’m afraid I came off anti elitist.  It’s not any of my business how much someone wants to spend on their hobby.  They aren’t any different from you or me.  They just want to have fun.  Of course, they can buy a lot more fun than a lot of us:)  Still, I can’t help suffering from some smug satisfaction when I catch fish on my $40.00 Three Forks while they flail away with their $2,500 bamboo rods.

The ones that crack me up are those that think their money will get them fish.  My buddy that guided in Idaho last summer had some stories about several rich, stuck up people who didn’t want to learn how to do things the right way, but thought that the gear they bought and the money they spent on a trip guaranteed them success.  Money does not equate with skill or success and it is hard for these people to realize that.  When I see them out there flailing the water into a froth giving dirty looks to their guides as if it is his fault, I get a laugh.  Especially after I pull out fish right in front of them.  It isn’t that I am against people with money who fish, hell I fish with RW don’t I? It is the attitude of the rich, stuck up snobs that I enjoy tweaking.  I have met several people who had tons of money out fishing and were actually very eager to learn and asked lots of questions.  Those types of people I like, very down to earth and just willing to learn because they love fly fishing.  It is the ones who have to announce to an entire fly shop that they need to use their Platinum card to buy half dozen flies as if we should be impressed that they have a Platinum card that piss me off, the ones like Peter posted about at one of the fly shops he goes to with the guy’s buddy looking at a reel, etc.  I enjoy watching them suffer when they go fishless because they are too stubborn and stuck up to listen to the "hired help" or "riff raff".  They are out there and certainly do exist.  I have found the Big Horn to have a high concentration of those types of people. — Warren Findley Shut up and fish! For Yellowstone Clave info: http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/YNP.html

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  I fished the Bighorn on Wed & Thurs.  It was a great trip.  I caught 9 fish on Wed. and 18 on Thursday.  That’s more like it!  

Thanks for the report. I also find larger rivers more difficult to fish (and less fun) than smaller waters. It is more like lake fishing to me. Since they are so large and usually so deep, fish holding and feeding areas often must be inferred rather than observed. A low gradient river like the Bighorn is even more difficult. Willi

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Thanks for the report. I also find larger rivers more difficult to fish (and less fun) than smaller waters. It is more like lake fishing to me. Since they are so large and usually so deep, fish holding and feeding areas often must be inferred rather than observed. A low gradient river like the Bighorn is even more difficult. Willi

  One of the biggest problems I face is the amount of weight needed to fish deeper holes and/or fast current. Slinging all that weight with an indicator and dropper fly all day in the wind is not my idea of great fun. Snoop —

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A few more trips and you will have a new definition of crowded.  Glad you caught lots of fish, always makes the trip more enjoyable.  I hear you on the high rollers who can’t cast.  Catching fish in front of them is always a blast and I am happy you got that experience

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I fished the Bighorn on Wed & Thurs.  It was a great trip.  I caught 9 fish on Wed. and 18 on Thursday.  That’s more like it!  As I said in another post, I couldn’t believe the number (tons ?) of midges on the water and in the air.  With all of the midges available, we saw very little surface action.  I have no idea how one would go about fishing a dry with all of the stuff on the water.  Perhaps an unrelated, larger fly like a Royal Wulff?   All of the action for us was on nymphs, scuds or midge pupa.  One of the hottest flies was the brown/tan thread body, black thread head that I learned about at the San Juan clave tied on size 20 & 22 hooks.  The guy that I was fishing with (Kevin) kept a few Browns and checked stomach contents.  Most of the contents were the little brown/gray midge pupa.  There were some dirty orange scuds and one black leach about 3 inches long.  We caught about half browns and half bows.  No whitefish this time.   We floated from 3 mile to Bighorn both days.  The river was crowded but I guess I’m getting more used to it. We did fish one side channel that was too shallow for drift boats and spent a lot of time there both days.  We had no one else fish through so it was quite enjoyable.  This was probably the best area we fished on this trip.  I think this kind of water is easier to fish.  The main river just seems so big and intimidating and I have a hard time knowing where to start to fish. There’s just so many choices.  It seems like a lot of places I think are "fishy" don’t have any fish that I can catch.   I spent a lot of time watching other fishermen and the guides.  Kind of a fun pastime but probably responsible for a lot of missed fish.  We saw 2 beautiful wood drift boats that looked like they came off the showroom floor.  It was interesting watching all of the different experience levels of fishermen.  It seemed like there were a lot of novices on the stream these 2 days.  We saw a few sports at the cafe that were really decked out.  Looked like they just fell off the cover of a LL Bean catalog.  Some of those guys had more money invested in one rod that I have in all my fishing gear.  I guess a few of the resorts up there are $500/day.  I’d like to visit with a few of those guys just to see what they think about the whole deal.  I imagine flying into Billings from big cities in the east or west would be kind of a mind blower.  Wonder what they thought when they traveled through the "beautiful" town of Lodge Grass or finally arrived at Ft Smith?  I’ll bet they felt like they were at the end of the world.  I’ll bet the pressure is on the guides to get these high rollers some fish.  Kevin and I derived some perverse pleasure in catching fish right in front of the high rollers while the guide was trying to help them get a cast out at least 10 feet:)  Of course, we were all the style what with our North Dakota drift boat (20 year old John boat) and our flashy dress (we looked like all of the roffers I’ve met at claves with the exception of Charlie who is always spiffed up to a "T", I suppose in case he runs across a high class book store or brothel).   I suppose that’s my last trip to the Horn until late fall.  We should be thawing at the higher elevations shortly around here and I’ll be going to work in a couple of weeks which will really raise hell with fishing for awhile:( Snoop —

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  I fished the Bighorn on Wed & Thurs.  It was a great trip.  I caught 9 fish on Wed. and 18 on Thursday.  That’s more like it!  As I said in another post, I couldn’t believe the number (tons ?) of midges on the water and in the air.  With all of the midges available, we saw very little surface action.  I have no idea how one would go about fishing a dry with all of the stuff on the water.  Perhaps an unrelated, larger fly like a Royal Wulff?   All of the action for us was on nymphs, scuds or midge pupa.  One of the hottest flies was the brown/tan thread body, black thread head that I learned about at the San Juan clave tied on size 20 & 22 hooks.  The guy that I was fishing with (Kevin) kept a few Browns and checked stomach contents.  Most of the contents were the little brown/gray midge pupa.  There were some dirty orange scuds and one black leach about 3 inches long.  We caught about half browns and half bows.  No whitefish this time.   We floated from 3 mile to Bighorn both days.  The river was crowded but I guess I’m getting more used to it. We did fish one side channel that was too shallow for drift boats and spent a lot of time there both days.  We had no one else fish through so it was quite enjoyable.  This was probably the best area we fished on this trip.  I think this kind of water is easier to fish.  The main river just seems so big and intimidating and I have a hard time knowing where to start to fish. There’s just so many choices.  It seems like a lot of places I think are "fishy" don’t have any fish that I can catch.   I spent a lot of time watching other fishermen and the guides.  Kind of a fun pastime but probably responsible for a lot of missed fish.  We saw 2 beautiful wood drift boats that looked like they came off the showroom floor.  It was interesting watching all of the different experience levels of fishermen.  It seemed like there were a lot of novices on the stream these 2 days.  We saw a few sports at the cafe that were really decked out.  Looked like they just fell off the cover of a LL Bean catalog.  Some of those guys had more money invested in one rod that I have in all my fishing gear.  I guess a few of the resorts up there are $500/day.  I’d like to visit with a few of those guys just to see what they think about the whole deal.  I imagine flying into Billings from big cities in the east or west would be kind of a mind blower.  Wonder what they thought when they traveled through the "beautiful" town of Lodge Grass or finally arrived at Ft Smith?  I’ll bet they felt like they were at the end of the world.  I’ll bet the pressure is on the guides to get these high rollers some fish.  Kevin and I derived some perverse pleasure in catching fish right in front of the high rollers while the guide was trying to help them get a cast out at least 10 feet:)  Of course, we were all the style what with our North Dakota drift boat (20 year old John boat) and our flashy dress (we looked like all of the roffers I’ve met at claves with the exception of Charlie who is always spiffed up to a "T", I suppose in case he runs across a high class book store or brothel).   I suppose that’s my last trip to the Horn until late fall.  We should be thawing at the higher elevations shortly around here and I’ll be going to work in a couple of weeks which will really raise hell with fishing for awhile:( Snoop —

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Question:

I have noticed today that there are  some personal items of Gary LaFontaine up for auction. I know he is struggling with ALS (I believe) but I really hope that his family isn’t having to sell his personal possessions to meet medical costs associated with his illness. I don’t want to start a bitch session about HMOs and the like, but if this is the case it’s pretty bloody awful.

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I have noticed today that there are  some personal items of Gary LaFontaine up for auction. I know he is struggling with ALS (I believe) but I really hope that his family isn’t having to sell his personal possessions to meet medical costs associated with his illness. I don’t want to start a bitch session about HMOs and the like, but if this is the case it’s pretty bloody awful.

This is sad. There’s no cure for ALS and it’s a terrible, painful way to die. I recently read Gary’s book about fishing the high country lakes. I enjoyed it very much and recommend it highly. One thing that came across in the book was how much he loved the extreme physical exertion of that kind of fishing. I’d be honored to give one of Gary’s legendary fishing dogs a home, if it needs one. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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I read in the letters column of Flyfishing and Tying Journal that one of the publishers was hosting a fund for Gary.  I’ll try to pick up the address Scott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have noticed today that there are  some personal items of Gary LaFontaine up for auction. I know he is struggling with ALS (I believe) but I really hope that his family isn’t having to sell his personal possessions to meet medical costs associated with his illness. I don’t want to start a bitch session about HMOs and the like, but if this is the case it’s pretty bloody awful. This is sad. There’s no cure for ALS and it’s a terrible, painful way to die. I recently read Gary’s book about fishing the high country lakes. I enjoyed it very much and recommend it highly. One thing that came across in the book was how much he loved the extreme physical exertion of that kind of fishing. I’d be honored to give one of Gary’s legendary fishing dogs a home, if it needs one. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Question:

Hi Possibly head down to the everglages for a few days. Trying to plan ahead for the hols. hope to hear from someone soon. Neil

Bad idea, mosquito city. go to the west coast orthe keys. Capt. Gary S. Colecchio West Palm Beach "The only people who have any business fishing are  young boys and married men. Everyone else should be  out getting laid." …I said that

Response:

"The only people who have any business fishing are  young boys and married men. Everyone else should be  out getting laid." …I said that

You’ve not met our beloved barrister from Rowan County. A man of many talents he can, and has, combined business, fishing, being married AND getting laid. Or… he used to could. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Head over to the Oak Hill area. Go by way of Merritt Island. Go to Titusville, across the causeway left to Haul Over Canal and just pick a spot somewhere on the route. Check a map of the area, you’ll see. John Popp in grass dead Sanford Fl

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Anyone know of any fly fishing areas around Orlando,  Possibly Head down to the everglages for a few days. Trying to plan ahead for the hols. hope to hear from someone soon. Neil * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free! Check with Rick at The Fly Fisherman on Orange Ave. in Orlando. HTH, R

Response:

Hi Anyone know of any fly fishing areas around Orlando,  Possibly Head down to the everglages for a few days. Trying to plan ahead for the hols. hope to hear from someone soon. Neil * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Check with Rick at The Fly Fisherman on Orange Ave. in Orlando. HTH, R

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The only people who have any business fishing are  young boys and married men. Everyone else should be  out getting laid." …I said that You’ve not met our beloved barrister from Rowan County. A man of many talents he can, and has, combined business, fishing, being married AND getting laid. Or… he used to could. — Ken Fortenberry

        um, well, of course, all such activities involved the same lady, of course, like when we go on family trips to the smokys and i have to call the office.         ken, will you give me a call tomorrow, please? wayno

Response:

Head over to the Oak Hill area. Go by way of Merritt Island. Go to Titusville, across the causeway left to Haul Over Canal and just pick a spot somewhere on the route. Check a map of the area, you’ll see. John Popp in grass dead Sanford Fl

They also have a location in Titusville, FWIW, but I’ve never been there.  I suspect Rick and the guys there know pretty much the whole area, however. R PS  John, Was over on Cedar Key last week and things where decent over there, plus it’s still cool (-ish, better than Orlando area, anyway), the rates at the inns are low this time of year and the crowds are light – us and a flyfishing! Virginia couple in a big trailered Whaler at the hotel marina.  Even got some of the last Stone claws at Charlie’s in Crystal River – yeee-uuumm!!  Kinda sorry to be back in Texas and hot as hell….<G. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Anyone know of any fly fishing areas around Orlando,  Possibly Head down to the everglages for a few days. Trying to plan ahead for the hols. hope to hear from someone soon. Neil * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free! Check with Rick at The Fly Fisherman on Orange Ave. in Orlando. HTH, R

Response:

Hi Anyone know of any fly fishing areas around Orlando,  Possibly Head down to the everglages for a few days. Trying to plan ahead for the hols. hope to hear from someone soon. Neil * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Question:

(Sandy’s observations snipped) — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0

I think we’ve been down these threads before Sandy, but they are worth repeating.  I asked the question once before and never got a definitive answer (like you ever do in this group); What about crushing ants and rolling your ant pattern around in a bottle of crushed ants?  Work? Ethical?  I was stopped and questioned at length once by a game warden because he thought my Bio-Strike looked like Power Bait!  I might try the ant thing this summer though.  Mossy Creek Browns are notoriously pickey! Just an additional note here about the scent thing.  A Wildlife Biologist/Fraternity Brother always swore by Oil of Anise.  Said fish and small game couldn’t resist the smell.  What if some enterprising floatant maker developed Anise scented floatant?  Ant scented, Mayfly scented floatant lines? — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Just an additional note here about the scent thing.  A Wildlife Biologist/Fraternity Brother always swore by Oil of Anise.  Said fish and small game couldn’t resist the smell.  What if some enterprising floatant maker developed Anise scented floatant?  Ant scented, Mayfly scented floatant lines?

I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F.

Response:

I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F.

If your gonna smear dead ants all over your fly then why not just hook a dead ant on the thing.  For that matter, why not dispense with the extra furry junk and just use the ant?  Let’s see, worms will hang on a hook easier than ants.  How about just using a worm and a big ball of strike indicater about 2 feet up the line?  Add to that a one piece bamboo "fly" rod and you have something which sounds familiar. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Dear Chief the extra chili last night and they really enjoyed it. They howled alot during the night but seemed fine this A.M.  You forgot to take the extra set of underware I washed for you.  Perhaps you can borrow a pair from DEave, use your suspenders to keep them up.   Try to stay away from that Fontenberry guy, last time you went fishing with him you came home with alot of new dirty words and some screwed up opinions.  Take your celostral pill each  morning.your metamusal each night and don"t forget you should have one Manhatten each night. Your side of the tribe has never been able to handle firewater,

Response:

"Wayne Hart" wrote <snip Just an additional note here about the scent thing.  A Wildlife Biologist/Fraternity Brother always swore by Oil of Anise.  Said fish and small game couldn’t resist the smell.  What if some enterprising floatant maker developed Anise scented floatant?  Ant scented, Mayfly scented floatant lines? Wayne

How about giving the whole area a rotten egg scent after one of Dave LaCourse’s clave breakfasts?  It isn’t from Anise but that’s close. Ernie

Response:

Knowledge is power.

Excellent post Sandy. Mu, who spent the morning alternating between spinnerbaits and wooly buggers.  Didn’t bring my minoow trap though.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F. If your gonna smear dead ants all over your fly then why not just hook a dead ant on the thing.  For that matter, why not dispense with the extra furry junk and just use the ant?  Let’s see, worms will hang on a hook easier than ants.  How about just using a worm and a big ball of strike indicater about 2 feet up the line?  Add to that a one piece bamboo "fly" rod and you have something which sounds familiar. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine!

Man, y’all gotta complicate thangs…get a old field phone and a bucket…or for you wacky types, Nitromon S and a good defense lawyer…you can fish and check fer erl… R To crank is exercise…. To blast Dangerous!

Response:

Joe Fleischman writes: I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F.

Well hell, Joe!  I guess I can’t fish in my favorite waders.   Hmmmmm, come to think of it, they don’t smell like bait, they smell Dave

Response:

Ernie Harrison writes: How about giving the whole area a rotten egg scent after one of Dave LaCourse’s clave breakfasts?  It isn’t from Anise but that’s close. Ernie

Ernie, damn it, I resent that!  My breakfasts at the clave are eaten by all with much gusto and no complaints.  If you ever get your scrawny ass to one of these claves, I will prove it to you, if I have to force feed the %&# eggs to ya!  <g And then I will get my buddy Jeffy to deep fry you an egg in bacon grease and we will force you to eat it.  Then, we’ll seal you in your waders, and send you on your way.   And people will shun you, forever and ever. Dave

Response:

Indian Joe sends a smoke signal: Dear Chief the extra chili last night and they really enjoyed it. They howled alot during the night but seemed fine this A.M. You forgot to take the extra set of underware I washed for you.  Perhaps you can borrow a pair from DEave, use your suspenders to keep them up.   Try to stay away from that Fontenberry guy, last time you went fishing with him you came home with alot of new dirty words and some screwed up opinions. Take your celostral pill each  morning.your metamusal each night and don"t forget you should have one Manhatten each night. Your side of the tribe has never been able to handle firewater,

Golly, Forty, only you and I made IJ’s celebrity  list this time around.  That underware stuff — is that like Tupper-ware? Your Pal, DEave

Response:

Charlie Choc: My breakfasts at the clave are eaten by all with much gusto and no complaints.   Never knew you were the cook at Tooties (where I ate *my* clave breakfasts)<g. — Charlie…

That’s right, you never stay at clave central.  Put it this way, if you liked Tooties, you will love the breakfast IJ and I will fix you.  (pssst, don’t eat Jeffy’s eggs). Dave LaCourse

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charlie Choc: My breakfasts at the clave are eaten by all with much gusto and no complaints. Never knew you were the cook at Tooties (where I ate *my* clave breakfasts)<g. — Charlie… That’s right, you never stay at clave central.  Put it this way, if you liked Tooties, you will love the breakfast IJ and I will fix you.  (pssst, don’t eat Jeffy’s eggs). Dave LaCourse

i’m workin on lasagna this year…hmmm…now, lemmesee, where’s the bacon grease… jeff

Response:

In the Great State of North Carolina, it is unlawful to desecrate the body of the dead.  Furthermore, anyone who *smears* the dead aunt onto a fly pattern is just plain sick!!

Umm, Rosanne Rosannadanna, that’s "ant".  Not "aunt", "ant". Regards, Jeff

Response:

My God man, don’t unbuckle that wader belt up wind! Fishing tip for the day:  A fisherman in neoprenes with a tight wader belt can be used to replace a punctured pontoon if you feed him enuf Burro Chilli.  Hint: ensure he is secured with a slip knot for easy release and to allow for expansion.                                     Frank Reid

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Joe Fleischman writes: I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F. Well hell, Joe!  I guess I can’t fish in my favorite waders.   Hmmmmm, come to think of it, they don’t smell like bait, they smell Dave

Response:

Folks, In the Great State of North Carolina, it is unlawful to desecrate the body of the dead.  Furthermore, anyone who *smears* the dead aunt onto a fly pattern is just plain sick!!

If you just hold it close to aunt Bea, though, it’ll pick up some of that gravy smell and that should work. — Charlie…

Response:

Folks, In the Great State of North Carolina, it is unlawful to desecrate the body of the dead.  Furthermore, anyone who *smears* the dead aunt onto a fly pattern is just plain sick!! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know I’ve mentioned this here before; but it’s been a while, so here it is again.   The state regs in MD used to have a simple clause for artificials-only water, "if it smells like bait, it is bait." Joe F. If your gonna smear dead ants all over your fly then why not just hook a dead ant on the thing.  For that matter, why not dispense with the extra furry junk and just use the ant?  Let’s see, worms will hang on a hook easier than ants.  How about just using a worm and a big ball of strike indicater about 2 feet up the line?  Add to that a one piece bamboo "fly" rod and you have something which sounds familiar. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

You’ll have to ask Al for sure, but I think Tupper just wears big ol’ cotton panties…

Gee thanks.   That’s a visual I could have done without.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

Nice post.  The only thing I would question is the part about lateral lines left out of the fly fishing definition – I think everyone agrees a muddler minnow is a fly, and part of its appeal is supposedly that it gives off enough vibration to get a trout’s interest. Anyway, I think part of the reason some people are attracted to fly fishing is to challenge themselves to fool trout.  The less real the "bait/fly" is, the more challenge there is in the deception.  The more real it is, the less challenge.  How much people care to challenge themselves in this respect seems to be a very personal thing.  The more natural the whole *scenario* is, the more challenge.  Some people will set up a chum line of real beetles to be followed by their own beetle imitation.  I don’t know how legal that is, but it’s not entirely natural. Knowledge is power.

– Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

Golly, Forty, only you and I made IJ’s celebrity  list this time around.  That underware stuff — is that like Tupper-ware?

You’ll have to ask Al for sure, but I think Tupper just wears big ol’ cotton panties… — Charlie…

Response:

My breakfasts at the clave are eaten by all with much gusto and no complaints.  

Never knew you were the cook at Tooties (where I ate *my* clave breakfasts)<g. — Charlie…

Response:

Knowledge is power. I like to know things about fish behavior. I often try things just to see what will happen. Once my experiment is finished, my new experimental technique may or may not become a steady habit. But I seldom regret trying something once. There is a lot to be learned from bait fishing for instance. Years ago–when it was still legal to fish with sculpins in Montana–I used to go sculpin fishing once every two or three years. If you use barbless hooks and set the hook when you first detect the strike, you get to return the fish unharmed, if you choose to do so. More important, in a few short hours of sculpin fishing you can learn about large brown trout behavior what might take a lifetime of fishing with flies. I used bait fishing to make myself a better streamer fisherman. You can learn a lot about riffle feeding behavior too–by fishing with live nymphs. The feedback rate (the number of fish you catch) is so great you learn more in a very short period of time (when you fish with live nymphs). When fishing with live nymphs doesn’t work, for instance, you know the fish are asleep. You learn to recognize those times, and not to waste your time. When the fish *are* on the feed, you can catch so many more fish in such a short period of time, you don’t have to work with hunches anymore. You quickly learn how to size up a riffle: to know where the big ones lie and how the little ones line up behind. You learn how much weight to use, how much slack to throw, and how and when to wait for the strike. You can learn all of those things from fly fishing too, of course. But you learn it slower, over a much longer time period, and you reach conclusions with far less confidence when fly fishing—-because the feedback rate is so slow. We do what we want. I choose to bait fish occasionally because I learn from it. I fly fish frequently because I prefer to fish that way. PUNCHLINE:    The line between bait fishing and fly fishing can be substantially obscured.  I’ve been making soft-bodied, open-cell foam nymphs for years. They’re good looking nymphs. Because they’re soft, fish don’t spit them out. They swim around chewing on soft nymphs, which makes it easier to detect the strikes. With soft foam nymphs, you don’t necessarily get more strikes, but you definately feel more of them happen.   Then, the other day, while fishing in the Madison canyon, I found a fat golden stonefly nymph under a rock. I killed it on a whim: I crushed it up and squeezed the resulting paste into the body of a soft foam nymph. I rolled the soft foam nymph back and forth in the palm of my hand, in a puddle of bug paste. That (open-cell foam) nymph, at that point, became equally effective as a live bait. But I could cast it as far as my fly rod would reach. I caught one fish after another in a riffle I had been working steadily and unsuccessfully foam nymph, but without the bug paste. Now I’m not suggesting anybody else should do anything like this at all. But this is interesting information. Fish detect their prey by: 1) eye sight 2) by detecting vibrations with their lateral line 3) by smell. And smell, I think, is the most powerful attractant of all. Now that I think of it, perhaps fly fishing (for those who worry about categories and definitions) means fishing with a fly rod in a way that only targets the piscatorial visual cortex: IE with no help from the lateral line, nor from the (fishes) olfactory system. For those of us who enjoy breaking the rules occasionally (but still like casting with a fly rod), you can also target the lateral line–with lightweight fly rod wigglers. And you can target the olfactory system too (and still do long distance fly rod casting) by fishing with soft foam nymphs……and bug paste. — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0  * http://nervana.montana.edu/~sandy  */

Response:

Question:

Carl, These boats differ in their performance.  The Delta, Acadia, Bayou, Keowee and Swifty are all "recreational boats".  The Delta and the Bayou are very similar in performance but one is longer than the other and tracks better. They both have flat hulls and are very good with initial stability but not very good secondary stability.  These boats will track better and be a bit faster than the Swifty and Keowee. The Swifty and Keowee are just knock around boats.  They don’t track well but do maneuver easily.  The Acadia is at the extreme low end of "touring kayaks"  It’s has a little more rocker on it but is made to get out into the easy ocean if desired.  It has good initial and secondary stability.  All of these boats will do flat water, easy class I/II rapids and paddle in bays well.  The Acadia, you can take a step further out in the easy ocean.

I’ve seen Swiftys and Keowees on class II, and I don’t think I’d say that they do it well.  Certainly people have fun in them, but…well, it depends on the class II, I guess.  I think that the more technical the river is, the less fun these boats will be.  Also, I’ve never seen anyone wear a skirt with these — it could be a pretty damp experience.   — ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::         "I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart                 for the joys of the multitude"

Response:

Yes it does depend on the river.  The Chattahoochee in Atlanta would be fine but something that is more technical would not.  That’s why I said easy class I/II rapids.  People have the option of purchasing a skirt with these boats.  The companies make skirts that fit each one.  If a person tells me they want to run some easy class I/II as well as flat water, I tell them they may want to purchase a skirt with it to keep the water out.  On the other hand if they just want to do flat water, there’s no need for a skirt unless they want to get a mini-skirt for splash or paddle drip. Courtney Rapid Adventures – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve seen Swiftys and Keowees on class II, and I don’t think I’d say that they do it well.  Certainly people have fun in them, but…well, it depends on the class II, I guess.  I think that the more technical the river is, the less fun these boats will be.  Also, I’ve never seen anyone wear a skirt with these — it could be a pretty damp experience.

Response:

You can get into a Swifty and yes it will float but it will sit lower in the water and be sluggish.  The Delta would be a better boat for doing what you are wanting to do and be more in your weight range.  If you really liked it, go for it.  It’s a great boat and I’m sure you won’t be disappointed. Courtney Rapid Adventures – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Courtney WOW- what a great reply…..thanks SO VERY MUCH!!!! As a follow-up- being 6-01/245- will the Swiftie float ??  If so, I think it would be an ideal 1st boat for me…..going to the kids later (if I like it enough to spend more $$$$$)  All I want to do at this point is paddle out a little, or paddle upstream a little (slow river) and flyfish for Bass/Panfish on the way back. I do have to admit though- out of the Delta and Bayou- I liked the Delta MUCH better.  The Bayou just seemed a little squirley compared to the Delta.  I even sat back and pulled my legs out and dangled them in the water in the Delta. A nice way to float down stream .  Couldn’t do that in the Bayou. I guess the thing that keeps me fluctuating towards Perception is their cool web site- maybe their boats are as cool??  Haven’t seen one though- other than on the web . Thanks again!! Carl

Response:

Dear Courtney WOW- what a great reply…..thanks SO VERY MUCH!!!! As a follow-up- being 6-01/245- will the Swiftie float ??  If so, I think it would be an ideal 1st boat for me…..going to the kids later (if I like it enough to spend more $$$$$)  All I want to do at this point is paddle out a little, or paddle upstream a little (slow river) and flyfish for Bass/Panfish on the way back. I do have to admit though- out of the Delta and Bayou- I liked the Delta MUCH better.  The Bayou just seemed a little squirley compared to the Delta.  I even sat back and pulled my legs out and dangled them in the water in the Delta.  A nice way to float down stream .  Couldn’t do that in the Bayou. I guess the thing that keeps me fluctuating towards Perception is their cool web site- maybe their boats are as cool??  Haven’t seen one though- other than on the web . Thanks again!! Carl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Carl, These boats differ in their performance.  The Delta, Acadia, Bayou, Keowee and Swifty are all "recreational boats".  The Delta and the Bayou are very similar in performance but one is longer than the other and tracks better. They both have flat hulls and are very good with initial stability but not very good secondary stability.  These boats will track better and be a bit faster than the Swifty and Keowee. The Swifty and Keowee are just knock around boats.  They don’t track well but do maneuver easily.  The Acadia is at the extreme low end of "touring kayaks"  It’s has a little more rocker on it but is made to get out into the easy ocean if desired.  It has good initial and secondary stability.  All of these boats will do flat water, easy class I/II rapids and paddle in bays well.  The Acadia, you can take a step further out in the easy ocean. As for the Carolina and Chinook, they are both Touring (sea) kayaks.  They track very well but are harder to turn.  Normally they will come with a rudder to help you with this.  They are both much faster than the above mentioned kayaks.  They have very good initial and secondary stability and both perform beautiful on flat water, easy class I/II rivers, bays and out in the ocean.  Their intended purpose is for actual sea kayaking, flat water and easy rivers. Both companies hold a good warranty (I think 3 years).  Dagger plastic is made of Excel polyethylene whereas Perception is made of Linear. Technically Excel is stronger but both plastics are very good.  Wilderness Systems material is made up of Crosslink.  This is the strongest of materials but a little heavier. Since you tried the Delta and liked it but didn’t like the Bayou, you may also check out the Wilderness Systems Manteo.  You may find you like it a whole lot better than the Pungo.  The hull on these boats are called a tri-hull.  They have excellent initial and secondary stability and track very well.  I have known several people to take them on all the above mentioned waters but they did get a bit nervous when out in the ocean and the waves got big or choppy. If you’re looking at a used boat, take a look to see that the top of the boat is the same color as the bottom of the boat.  People store their kayaks outside allot and the UV rays break down the plastic over time.  If stored indoors the plastic condition should be fine.  Also look for oil canning (where the boat has a bow in it somewhere on the hull, usually under the seat).  I little bow is o.k. but if it looks really wavy, the plastic is getting warn and doesn’t have too much time left before it cracks.   Look for deep gouges as well.  There will always be scratches on a boat and that’s fine but DEEP gouges can be a sign of trouble on the horizon depending on where these gouges are.  For instance, under the seat would be a bad place. Out of all of these boats, I would focus on the Delta, Acadia and Manteo if not planning on really getting out into the ocean.  The Manteo does great in waves and flat water, the Acadia the same but less initial stability and the Delta does better in flat water due to the good initial stability but not that much secondary and is not as wave friendly. If planning on going into the ocean, either the Carolina or Chinook would be good.  I personally like the Carolina the best because of it’s stability and performance. Hope this helped and sorry it’s so long.  I work in a boat store and sell these boats every day and it’s hard to narrow it down to two sentences. Courtney Rapid Adventures Hi: I’m a long time paddler (canoe) that’s brand new to kayaks…..but I’m hooked Tested the Delta today and loved it….haven’t seen the Acadia or Carolina, however from the web the Acadia seems almost exactly like the Delta.  What are your thoughts….which is a better company (product, fit and finish, warranty, support etc) and which is a better boat?  To complicate matters another shop has a used Perception Chinook for the same price as these new boats……. Also, I’m 6′01" and 245lbs…..any large kayakers try the Keowee or even the Swiftie?  I did paddle the WS Pongo and the Dagger Bayou and did not like either (for different reasons). I know this is a long message, but I do hop there are some out there that will have the time to respond…..I’m hopelessly confused Carl

Response:

Carl – Did you try also posting your message to the following newsgroup? rec.boats.paddle.touring You might reach more users who could help you out there. Good luck! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I wanted to thank the two newsgroup members above- they were the only replies to my post.  For the rest of you, PLEASE help me with opinions.  I have no kayak background and thought that this would be the perfect forum to get experienced responses.  My original post is below:- (My sole (current) ambition is to paddle a mile or so upstream and fly-fish downstream)) Hi: I’m a long time paddler (canoe) that’s brand new to kayaks…..but I’m hooked Tested the Delta today and loved it….haven’t seen the Acadia or Carolina, however from the web the Acadia seems almost exactly like the Delta.  What are your thoughts….which is a better company (product, fit and finish, warranty, support etc) and which is a better boat?  To complicate matters another shop has a used Perception Chinook for the same price as these new boats……. Also, I’m 6′01" and 245lbs…..any large kayakers try the Keowee or even the Swiftie?  I did paddle the WS Pongo and the Dagger Bayou and did not like either (for different reasons). I know this is a long message, but I do hop there are some out there that will have the time to respond…..I’m hopelessly confused Carl

Sue

Response:

Carl, These boats differ in their performance.  The Delta, Acadia, Bayou, Keowee and Swifty are all "recreational boats".  The Delta and the Bayou are very similar in performance but one is longer than the other and tracks better. They both have flat hulls and are very good with initial stability but not very good secondary stability.  These boats will track better and be a bit faster than the Swifty and Keowee. The Swifty and Keowee are just knock around boats.  They don’t track well but do maneuver easily.  The Acadia is at the extreme low end of "touring kayaks"  It’s has a little more rocker on it but is made to get out into the easy ocean if desired.  It has good initial and secondary stability.  All of these boats will do flat water, easy class I/II rapids and paddle in bays well.  The Acadia, you can take a step further out in the easy ocean. As for the Carolina and Chinook, they are both Touring (sea) kayaks.  They track very well but are harder to turn.  Normally they will come with a rudder to help you with this.  They are both much faster than the above mentioned kayaks.  They have very good initial and secondary stability and both perform beautiful on flat water, easy class I/II rivers, bays and out in the ocean.  Their intended purpose is for actual sea kayaking, flat water and easy rivers. Both companies hold a good warranty (I think 3 years).  Dagger plastic is made of Excel polyethylene whereas Perception is made of Linear. Technically Excel is stronger but both plastics are very good.  Wilderness Systems material is made up of Crosslink.  This is the strongest of materials but a little heavier. Since you tried the Delta and liked it but didn’t like the Bayou, you may also check out the Wilderness Systems Manteo.  You may find you like it a whole lot better than the Pungo.  The hull on these boats are called a tri-hull.  They have excellent initial and secondary stability and track very well.  I have known several people to take them on all the above mentioned waters but they did get a bit nervous when out in the ocean and the waves got big or choppy. If you’re looking at a used boat, take a look to see that the top of the boat is the same color as the bottom of the boat.  People store their kayaks outside allot and the UV rays break down the plastic over time.  If stored indoors the plastic condition should be fine.  Also look for oil canning (where the boat has a bow in it somewhere on the hull, usually under the seat).  I little bow is o.k. but if it looks really wavy, the plastic is getting warn and doesn’t have too much time left before it cracks.   Look for deep gouges as well.  There will always be scratches on a boat and that’s fine but DEEP gouges can be a sign of trouble on the horizon depending on where these gouges are.  For instance, under the seat would be a bad place. Out of all of these boats, I would focus on the Delta, Acadia and Manteo if not planning on really getting out into the ocean.  The Manteo does great in waves and flat water, the Acadia the same but less initial stability and the Delta does better in flat water due to the good initial stability but not that much secondary and is not as wave friendly. If planning on going into the ocean, either the Carolina or Chinook would be good.  I personally like the Carolina the best because of it’s stability and performance. Hope this helped and sorry it’s so long.  I work in a boat store and sell these boats every day and it’s hard to narrow it down to two sentences. Courtney Rapid Adventures – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi: I’m a long time paddler (canoe) that’s brand new to kayaks…..but I’m hooked Tested the Delta today and loved it….haven’t seen the Acadia or Carolina, however from the web the Acadia seems almost exactly like the Delta.  What are your thoughts….which is a better company (product, fit and finish, warranty, support etc) and which is a better boat?  To complicate matters another shop has a used Perception Chinook for the same price as these new boats……. Also, I’m 6′01" and 245lbs…..any large kayakers try the Keowee or even the Swiftie?  I did paddle the WS Pongo and the Dagger Bayou and did not like either (for different reasons). I know this is a long message, but I do hop there are some out there that will have the time to respond…..I’m hopelessly confused Carl

Response:

I wanted to thank the two newsgroup members above- they were the only replies to my post.  For the rest of you, PLEASE help me with opinions.  I have no kayak background and thought that this would be the perfect forum to get experienced responses.  My original post is below:- (My sole (current) ambition is to paddle a mile or so upstream and fly-fish downstream)) Hi: I’m a long time paddler (canoe) that’s brand new to kayaks…..but I’m hooked Tested the Delta today and loved it….haven’t seen the Acadia or Carolina, however from the web the Acadia seems almost exactly like the Delta.  What are your thoughts….which is a better company (product, fit and finish, warranty, support etc) and which is a better boat?  To complicate matters another shop has a used Perception Chinook for the same price as these new boats……. Also, I’m 6′01" and 245lbs…..any large kayakers try the Keowee or even the Swiftie?  I did paddle the WS Pongo and the Dagger Bayou and did not like either (for different reasons). I know this is a long message, but I do hop there are some out there that will have the time to respond…..I’m hopelessly confused Carl

Response:

Hi: I’m a long time paddler (canoe) that’s brand new to kayaks…..but I’m hooked Tested the Delta today and loved it….haven’t seen the Acadia or Carolina, however from the web the Acadia seems almost exactly like the Delta.  What are your thoughts….which is a better company (product, fit and finish, warranty, support etc) and which is a better boat?  To complicate matters another shop has a used Perception Chinook for the same price as these new boats……. Also, I’m 6′01" and 245lbs…..any large kayakers try the Keowee or even the Swiftie?  I did paddle the WS Pongo and the Dagger Bayou and did not like either (for different reasons). I know this is a long message, but I do hop there are some out there that will have the time to respond…..I’m hopelessly confused Carl

Response:

paddled the Carolina in a Basic Sea Kayaking course and was pleased with it. It was my first time kayaking and I had no problems.  It is 25 1/4 inches wide so it will be more tippy than the Delta I believe.  I would be reluctant to paddle a kayak with out some instruction.  Oh, I almost forgot, I am 6′ 2" and found the Carolina a little too scrunched up for my legs.  I rented a Current Designs Storm (17′ l  24"w) today and the leg room was better and it was fast, but it was extremely heavy.  Hope this helps some.

Response:

I have had two Dagger white water boats and have had no complaints about their fit or finish. Are you pretty much decided on a day-tripping boat? There are a number of choices out there, in a number of lengths, and it is easy to get "analysis paralysis". Check out the paddling shops in your area and find out about rentals and demo days. Get hooked up with a paddling club or two and you can get exposure to a number of different boats and opinions. Many folks have more than one and might be willing to help you compare. Don’t worry about making the choice. You’re really just buying your *first* kayak, anyway . (ps- one of the boats I have is a Wilderness Systems Seacret, which is plenty wide (I’m 6′1" and weigh 205) and has lots of foot room, and was surprisingly maneuverable and quick… I bought it to serve as a fishing photo platform, but really like it generally. Check and see when the outfitters in your area are selling used equipment…worked for me, and I got it half price! Good luck! — paddlrat living proof that rats can swim! Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Question:

I am looking for a lightweight single canoe for fly fishing.  Any recommendations? THANKS

Response:

I caught one last week with a Shakespear floating line rig. I am sorry to say that the sucker wiggled away when he paddled backwards and I wasn’t expecting it. Chuck Creekmore – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for a lightweight single canoe for fly fishing.  Any recommendations? THANKS

Response:

Paul An excellent boat for fly fishing would be a Pungo made by Wilderness Systems.  This is actually a recreational kayak but is real stable and many fly fisherman swear by them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for a lightweight single canoe for fly fishing.  Any recommendations? THANKS

Response:

Paul, Check out Mohawk canoes – the Solo model looks great to me. Also – the Old Town Pack may work for you – perhps it may be more stable for fly fishing than the Mohawk Solo. I haven’t paddled either, though am trying to, and considering one of them for purchase. Good luck!! Lou – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for a lightweight single canoe for fly fishing.  Any recommendations? THANKS

Response:

Try a Mohawk 14′ Challenger, lts a good boat to fish out of and you can even do some whitewater in it. I got one and I like it.

Response:

Sawyer makes a nice 13′ solo boat that would work well.  They make it in several layups.  The least expensive layup is the Solo 13 which is the heaviest layup at 46 pounds but is the cheapest listing at $575.  The same boat in kevlar or a lighter fiberglass layup is called the Classic.  I own a Solo 13.  It is a nice paddling solo.  It was designed by the same guy that designed the Wildfire/Flashfire and Starfire for Bell.  The Bell boats are beautiful but more expensive.  The Flashfire looks to be a refined Solo 13 that has been designed for a little more experienced paddler and would have a little higher performance with the sacrafice of a little of the initial stability.

Response:

Question:

Greetings; Going to be in Banff at the end of August – business trip – but will stay longer if there is any good fly fishing. Any recommendations ?

Response:

Greetings; Going to be in Banff at the end of August – business trip – but will stay longer if there is any good fly fishing. Any recommendations ?

I found that the folks at the Green Drake Flyshop in the town just outside the park gate (I’ll think of the name in a moment) were very helpful. I stopped in for some suggestions and they were generous with their time and advice. I spoke to several people, including John Sims. Rick Pollack

Response:

Greetings; Going to be in Banff at the end of August – business trip – but will

stay longer if there is any good fly fishing. Any recommendations ? Green Drake Flyshop in Canmore.

Response:

The infamous Bow River flows through Banff and winds it’s way east through Calgary. If you are into travelling just a bit south of Calgary. some of the best Trout Flyfishing in the world exists there. Well worth the effort and time. See the following WEB site for some info.   http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Adventures/Bow_River/index.html I have fished the Dead Man Flats area which is just east of Canmore (and therefore Banff). Nice area if water levels are down, which they will be when you get there. Travel 10 minutes or so east of Canmore until you see the gas stations on the left. Behind them to the west is a campground. park there and head north to the river (100-200 meters or so). Work your way up and down the river and enjoy. This was one of my old fishing holes when I lived up in that area. Stew Greetings; Going to be in Banff at the end of August – business trip – but will stay longer if there is any good fly fishing. Any recommendations ?

– #  D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." #    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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Question:

Limited to 12 students, we’ll have six guides, you’ll work with three. Covering everything from equipment (both spin and fly) to fly tying, reading water, proper presentation etc. Evening seminars after fishing, all equipment, meals, deluxe accommodations right on the river’s edge. $350./person Nov. 18, 19, and 20 E-mail for specifics — Bill Fling                     Tel. (315) 298-3044 SALMON RIVER ANGLERS LODGE     FAX  (315) 298-2619 P.O. Box 353                   Rt. 13, Rome Road Pulaski, NY 13142-0353   ‘SALMON RIVER/LAKE ONTARIO SPORTFISHING REPORTS’             ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’

Response:

We’re putting together a Steelhead school to be held November 18-20 here on the Salmon River in Pulaski, NY Price includes upscale lodging, all meals, guides, equipment and related materials. Limited to 12 students. Will cover all aspects of steelhead fishing using both fly and spin tackle techniques. e-mail for details. Bill Fling Reg. ME Master Guide Lic. NYS Guide — Bill Fling                     Tel. (315) 298-3044 SALMON RIVER ANGLERS LODGE     FAX  (315) 298-2619 P.O. Box 353                   Rt. 13, Rome Road Pulaski, NY 13142-0353   ‘SALMON RIVER/LAKE ONTARIO SPORTFISHING REPORTS’             ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’

Response:

Question:

I have the opportunity to buy a used 2-man fiberglass drift boat, equiped w/oars, anchor, trailer, etc., but I’m really not sure what’s the going price? Any ideas?  Please let me know what to what out for in buying a used fiberglass drift.

Response:

Please let me know what to what out for in buying a used fiberglass drift.

Leaks? — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

i looked at boat that could handle two persons only (not sure of the size) and the guy was asking $1400.  Because of the small size and ability to carry such a light load, many people don’t want them.  Bottom line is that the guy took $800 for it. Having had a few drift boat, don’t get sucked into the price and compromise on the size.  A two man boat offers limited carry capacity.  You will always have more gear then you anticipate plus at least two other friends who want to fish.   I just built a 17′ flyfishing model that can carry 3 fisherman and one oarsman confortability, first one I ever owned that really is close to what I need.   — Gene Dobrzynski, Eagle River, Alaska

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Question:

I would like to know about FF in PR.  Also- did it finally rain this year?

Response:

: I would like to know about FF in PR.  Also- did it finally rain this year? : May I piggy-back on Cliff’s request?  My wife and I will be vacationing in : Puerto Rico at the end of January.  I’d like to try flyfishing for bonefish, : if that is possible.  I’d appreciate any suggestions regarding spots to try, : flys, guides, equipment, etc.  I’d also like to charter a boat and take a shot : at some deep water fishing.  Any advice about that would be appreciated as : well. I am by no means an expert on PR….  It is my experience that there are very few bonefish around PR, lots of tarpon though and some permit.  From what I understand, there are no flats to attract bonefish to the PR areas.  I fished down there with an old Colorado ff buddy (who has moved to San Juan) a couple of times.  He has had very little success finding bones or catching fish on fly gear.  On the first visit, I caught a large tarpon (60lbs) using a bassfishing like jig/rubber tail in a mangrove swamp right in the flight path of the San Juan airport!  The other trip we fished some bays and tidal shoreline on the south side of the island.. no luck there that weekend.  Hear alot of people talk of seeing tarpon along the west shore also, but no fishing stories.

Response:

I would like to know about FF in PR.  Also- did it finally rain this year?

May I piggy-back on Cliff’s request?  My wife and I will be vacationing in Puerto Rico at the end of January.  I’d like to try flyfishing for bonefish, if that is possible.  I’d appreciate any suggestions regarding spots to try, flys, guides, equipment, etc.  I’d also like to charter a boat and take a shot at some deep water fishing.  Any advice about that would be appreciated as well. Thanks, Emil

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