Question:

Tuesday morning found only RW, Bruce and me in camp.  At breakfast, we met Kerry Evans a roffer from Colorado.  We headed back to the Texas Hole to fish the riffles in front of the first handicap ramp.  I started fishing without Bruce directing me — caught nothing.  When he came down, he placed me at the side of the main current.  On my first cast I was into a nice fish and managed to land a 20 inch bow, again with beautiful colors.  After awhile, Bruce moved us upstream to Big Rock Hole and the main current of the river.  RW, Bruce and I took some beautiful fish here.  We also lost two for every one we landed — the current was quite strong and with iddybiddy hooks it was difficult to land these big fish.  One brought me downstream about 50 yards.  As I stumbled/waded over the slippery rocks, RW hollered, "Hey, bring us back some chips and salsa and a couple of beers!"  I managed to finally net this giant football and in my excitement  reviving the fish, my net floated away!   I broke for lunch, but the two river maniacs stayed and continued to catch fish.  I met them in the flats above the KP after lunch and couldn’t believe that I was catching 20 inch fish in 16 inch deep water!   I moved back to the Texas Hole after awhile, and rigged up for some dry fly fishing.  I tied on a size 22 Adams parachute (Forty’s SJ fly) and cast to rising fish.  I managed to hook a few, but never landed one.  RW and Bruce collected me just before dark and we made our way back.  I left them at the parking lot and went back to the former Clave Central.  It was a lonely dinner and evening with no roffians about.  I fell asleep at 7:30 and awoke at 5:30. Apparently I was tired.  Happy, but very tired. Dave LaCourse Dave LaCourse

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(snip great report) Apparently I was tired.  Happy, but very tired. Dave LaCourse

Now THAT is the way to finish out a road trip!  :-) — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine!

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Dave, i couldn’t imagine a better day than tuesday.  you caught more fish than i ever did in my first few days on that river.  it is fun in that current by the big rock – we lost several more each than we landed.  steve’s side is real tough because the fish are there, but you’ve only got about ten feet square of reasonable water around you and if the fish leaves the area, your chances are slim.  nice also that we all tended to pop out of the fish rather than break off, although our pockets were picked a few times each.  the flies are so small, louie thought he broke off the entire rig in a pig once, only to say "wait, i’ve still got one fly… no, maybe i’ve got both… yep, i’ve bruce h — bare your soul let your spirit burn out along the road to no return – r.e. keen

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Nice report Dave, thanks.  I share your feelings about catching beat up hatchery trout, even though they may be large ones taking tiny flies.  That’s what happens when a place becomes popular.  Keep all your honey holes a secret or they may turn out to be like the kiddy pool.  There is no substitute for wild trout. Ernie

Tuesday morning found only RW, Bruce and me in camp.  At breakfast, we met Kerry Evans a roffer from Colorado.

<great trip report snipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave LaCourse

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[deleted] There is no substitute for wild trout.

The last week of November found me in a tourist town at the gates of a National Park near where I live.  There was a pond and a parking lot. In the parking lot was a large lit sign on a pole which read "Catch Wild Trout". And so I am left to conclude agreement with you on your sentiment Ernie. The one possible exception being the imagination. Your pal, — TimW Halfordian Golfer & Urban Forager It is impossible to catch and release a wild trout. A cash flow runs through it.

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Question:

Trip Reports Soon: It has taken a lot just to get back on the saddle again business wise. Our trip was amazing in so many ways and we have a few pictures to post on our web site soon.  Just digitizing them into the computer takes effort as most know.  It will be a few more days before we are able to post them.  I will keep everyone posted as this is fly fishing at its’ finest. — Mr.Gink "the saga continues"   http://www.gink.com/

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I will keep everyone posted as this is fly fishing at its’ finest.

Actually, that was over at the ROFF clave, sorry you missed it.  But a notch down from the ROFF clave could still have been pretty good. Regards, Jeff

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Trip Reports Soon: Our trip was amazing in so many ways and we have a few pictures to post on our web site soon.

Looking forward to it, I’ve always wanted to see a picture of someone casting a fly while their head was up their ass.

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Is the Gink Conclave anything like the Winston Cup or the Nokia Sugar Bowl? <snip "Goddamn, well I declare! Their walls are built from  cannonballs;  their motto is ‘don’t tread on me’" -Uncle Jerry

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Is the Gink Conclave anything like the Winston Cup or the Nokia Sugar Bowl?

I think it’s something that happens on occasion in public restrooms<g. — Charlie…

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Question:

I may not speak for the majority, but I know I speak for many of my long-time flyfishing friends… A River Runs Thru It is not and never will be our favorite flyfishing movie!  My respects of course to Mr. Maclean and his talents.  Had he known what the effects of the film would be on many of our previously uncrowded and pristine streams and rivers, he may have had second thoughts on the film rights.

Response:

Good book though… What is your favorite flyfishing movie?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I may not speak for the majority, but I know I speak for many of my long-time flyfishing friends… A River Runs Thru It is not and never will be our favorite flyfishing movie!  My respects of course to Mr. Maclean and his talents.  Had he known what the effects of the film would be on many of our previously uncrowded and pristine streams and rivers, he may have had second thoughts on the film rights.

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Good book though… What is your favorite flyfishing movie?

The River Wild . . . wait they used guns, not fly rods.

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My respects of course to Mr. Maclean and his talents.  Had he known what the effects of the film would be on many of our previously uncrowded and pristine streams and rivers, he may have had second thoughts on the film rights.

What?!? You don’t like it when you go fishing and somebody comes up to you and asks "I heard they filmed ‘A River Runs Through It’ around here.  Was it here?" Seriously have had people ask me that before. Too bad they didn’t set it in CA and then they could have just toured their own state.

Response:

Hi I’m one of the owners of Reel Deals Movie Posters. We carry hundreds of movie posters and sell them all over the world. I’m certain we have movie posters for your favorite movies. Check out our web site. The prices are reasonable. Web address: http://www.reeldeals.com

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Question:

Does anyone have information about fishing in Huatulco/Puerto Escondido, Mexico area? I am planning a trip for mid august, but the only problem is, with less then a month left, I still have no idea what to expect. I will only be able to bring a 7/8 weight, and I will probably fish the bays in Huatulco and Puerto Angel….any other hot spots in the area???? I need to know what kind of fish are availible to me, and of course what flies (specific patterns?) or type of flies (shrimp? baitfish?) and what sizes i should tie them in….also handy would be possibly guide recommendations and leader strengths? Actually, any information at all would be great! I just need all the help I can get! Anyway, if you have any ideas, please either email me OR reply to this message!                                 Thanks in advance,                                 Scott

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have information about fishing in Huatulco/Puerto Escondido, Mexico area? I am planning a trip for mid august, but the only problem is, with less then a month left, I still have no idea what to expect. I will only be able to bring a 7/8 weight, and I will probably fish the bays in Huatulco and Puerto Angel….any other hot spots in the area???? I need to know what kind of fish are availible to me, and of course what flies (specific patterns?) or type of flies (shrimp? baitfish?) and what sizes i should tie them in….also handy would be possibly guide recommendations and leader strengths? Actually, any information at all would be great! I just need all the help I can get! Anyway, if you have any ideas, please either email me OR reply to this message!                                Thanks in advance,                                Scott

You can find some information about fishing in Huatulco and Puerto Angel on my web page.  You can start with http://www.eden.com/~tomzap/hfishing.html Tom Penick             Web page:             Austin, Texas            http://www.eden.com/~tomzap

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Question:

Horrocks-Ibbotson was one of the most prolific rod makers, making rods at a variety of quality levels and price points. I’m not familiar with the Thunderbird model, but if you can describe the inscriptions, decals, wraps, reel seat, etc in detail, I might be able to give you some more information. — Best regards, Dave Visit Dave Teffeteller’s Fly Fishing Guides Home Page http://www.olfart.com

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Hello all ,  I am relatively new to fly fishing and fly tying . Maybe someone can help . I recently picked up a fly rod at a yard sale and I’m looking for help identifying it or the builders . It’s about 6 1/2 ft and looks handmade . On the rod it has written , chrome plated stainless steel guides. It says thermo weld process and then the name Thunderbird with a picture of it looks like an indian or aztec bird.Just above the grip it says tournement taper, rigid butt-sensitive tip . Then it has what I assume to be the co. that built it – looks like Harrocks-Ibberson Co.utica NY made in USA and under that the #1464XL . All this writing looks to be done by hand .If anyone can help me track down the company that made it or give me any information at all ,  I would be grateful . Thanks

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Question:

  What is fishing well on the Metolius these days – March 17?? I thought it was closed?? I don’t really know if it is open or closed. It usually fishes well in June and September.

Nope, it’s only closed above Allingham Bridge.  Of course that’s my favorite water, especially in the winter, but I gladly conced because there was too much damage to the banks. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley           2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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   What is fishing well on the Metolius these days – March 17??    Many thanks,    john manotti

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  What is fishing well on the Metolius these days – March 17??   Many thanks,   john manotti

I thought it was closed?? I don’t really know if it is open or closed. It usually fishes well in June and September. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi. Perhaps not, but here is what is posted on The River Alliance of Wisconsin website: http://www.igc.apc.org/wisrivers/ "Victory on the St. Croix River Department of Interior Vetoes Stillwater Bridge As a New Year’s present to the St. Croix the Department of the Interior decided to veto the proposed Stillwater Bridge across the National Wild and Scenic St. Croix River. The decision came partly as a result of public pressure from concerned citizens. Hmmm…. It is very strange to read this article. As a resident of Stillwater for the past 10 years, I can tell you this bridge project, or a number like it, have been around since I’ve been here. Last I heard the project was still on. Here is a quote from another article I found.    Still on this year’s list are West Virginia’s Corridor H project,    Indiana’s I-69, Connecticut’s Route 6, California’s I-710, U.S.    Forest Service roads, the Automated Highway System and    Minnesota’s Stillwater Bridge.  Meanwhile, the Stillwater bridge    project’s inclusion in Green Scissors for a second year promoted    more calls for the project’s re-evaluation.  In a Minneapolis Star    Tribune article, (2/5) Rep. Jim Randstad, (R-MN) who endorsed    the report, criticized the bridge project: "They need to go back to    the drawing board.  (The project) needs to be scaled down    consistent with the area’s environment." Declaring "Victory" sounds very bizarre to me. We have very complex situation here. First, the current Stillwater bridge is deteriorating fast, (not to mention that it is a hideous monstrosity). Second, the recreational pressures on the St Croix Valley are tremendous and Stillwater is at the epicenter of this pressure. The result, a huge traffic jam every Saturday & Sunday, morning and evening. Third, while the St Croix is a "National Scenic Waterway", the area they are planning to build is hardly the most scenic part of the river. NSP plant just down river, Stillwater Water Treatment is right there. A bridge is needed, but not one of the scale they have planned. -Michael                                                                        

 This is helpful, because it strongly suggests this is NOT the same proposed bridge.  The one I was talking about would be over the St. Croix itself and IN WISCONSIN, not Minnesota!

Response:

This is helpful, because it strongly suggests this is NOT the same proposed bridge.  The one I was talking about would be over the St. Croix itself and IN WISCONSIN, not Minnesota!

The St. Croix River is the border between Wi and MN from Prescott WI (About 20 miles SE of St. Paul) north to St. Croix Falls (maybe a little further north.)   If they’re talking about the Stillwater bridge I doubt the project will seriously effect the scenic value of the area which is essentially suburban.  (5 miles downstream I-94 crosses the river on two large bridges.  4 miles downstream a railroad bridge crosses the river.)  For a glimpse of the Stillwater bridge watch the movie "Grumpier Old Men".  The scene where Mel and the guy are breaking up is shot on the waterfront in Stillwater with the bridge in the background. If they’re talking about a bridge over the St. Croix where its inland in Wisconsin then I have to know if we’re talking about a one culvert bridge or a two culvert bridge?  (Its not that big a river farther north.) John Close

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi. Perhaps not, but here is what is posted on The River Alliance of Wisconsin website: http://www.igc.apc.org/wisrivers/ "Victory on the St. Croix River Department of Interior Vetoes Stillwater Bridge As a New Year’s present to the St. Croix the Department of the Interior decided to veto the proposed Stillwater Bridge across the National Wild and Scenic St. Croix River. The decision came partly as a result of public pressure from concerned citizens. The Sierra Club, Northstar Chapter, in Minnesota, spearheaded the effort to protect the river. In early December the River Alliance teamed up with the Sierra Club to send an Urgent Alert to 600+ River Alliance members across Wisconsin asking them to write to Secretary of the Interior, Bruce Babbitt. William Schenk, Park Service Midwest Area Director, said of the project, "the massive structure would adversely affect the natural and historic scene, altering the scenic qualities of this segment of the river more than any development since designation as a National Wild and Scenic Riverway." The unnecessary project would have increased urban sprawl and added a large cement structure to a previously untouched area of the riverway. This project would have forever changed the character of the area. Sara Johnson, Executive Director of the River Alliance, said of the decision, "What a great way to start the New Year. The bridge was a terrible idea and we applaud the Department of the Interior for stopping the project. This decision sends a strong message that our Wild and Scenic Rivers are national treasures not to be messed with." If you know of another bridge project, I’d be glad to hear about it.                                                                        

 THANK YOU very much!!!  I’ll bet it’s the same one after all—weird that the local newspaper that printed the story didn’t say a word about this deus-ex-machina manuever by the Dept. of the Interior!—but if I learn any more about it I’ll post it.  Thanks again!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi. Perhaps not, but here is what is posted on The River Alliance of Wisconsin website: http://www.igc.apc.org/wisrivers/ "Victory on the St. Croix River Department of Interior Vetoes Stillwater Bridge As a New Year’s present to the St. Croix the Department of the Interior decided to veto the proposed Stillwater Bridge across the National Wild and Scenic St. Croix River. The decision came partly as a result of public pressure from concerned citizens.

Hmmm…. It is very strange to read this article. As a resident of Stillwater for the past 10 years, I can tell you this bridge project, or a number like it, have been around since I’ve been here. Last I heard the project was still on. Here is a quote from another article I found.    Still on this year’s list are West Virginia’s Corridor H project,    Indiana’s I-69, Connecticut’s Route 6, California’s I-710, U.S.    Forest Service roads, the Automated Highway System and    Minnesota’s Stillwater Bridge.  Meanwhile, the Stillwater bridge    project’s inclusion in Green Scissors for a second year promoted    more calls for the project’s re-evaluation.  In a Minneapolis Star    Tribune article, (2/5) Rep. Jim Randstad, (R-MN) who endorsed    the report, criticized the bridge project: "They need to go back to    the drawing board.  (The project) needs to be scaled down    consistent with the area’s environment."   Declaring "Victory" sounds very bizarre to me. We have very complex situation here. First, the current Stillwater bridge is deteriorating fast, (not to mention that it is a hideous monstrosity). Second, the recreational pressures on the St Croix Valley are tremendous and Stillwater is at the epicenter of this pressure. The result, a huge traffic jam every Saturday & Sunday, morning and evening. Third, while the St Croix is a "National Scenic Waterway", the area they are planning to build is hardly the most scenic part of the river. NSP plant just down river, Stillwater Water Treatment is right there. A bridge is needed, but not one of the scale they have planned. -Michael

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Yesterday I got another shock:  It seems there is now a debate over building a huge modern goddamn BRIDGE over the river…or perhaps downstream over the St. Croix into which the Namekagon flows, which is (has been?) equally wild and gorgeous.  I suggested that the "wild river" designation might induce a false sense of security among those who care about such matters…? Fortunately that bridge was vetoed by the Department of the Interior. For more information, you might check out the River Alliance of Wisconsin website.  I don’t have the url handy but you can link there from http://www.awa.org/awa/affil_clubs/rts.htm

Wild and Scenic has meant improving the road, blocking off the pull over on the shoulder where we use to park to scout Pin Ball , building over priced signs and getting on the web for the ——. Next will come the fees, permits and the crowds. I’m sure it has also done some good that I haven’t noticed.                                gene

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Yesterday I got another shock:  It seems there is now a debate over building a huge modern goddamn BRIDGE over the river…or perhaps downstream over the St. Croix into which the Namekagon flows, which is (has been?) equally wild and gorgeous.  I suggested that the "wild river" designation might induce a false sense of security among those who care about such matters…? Fortunately that bridge was vetoed by the Department of the Interior. For more information, you might check out the River Alliance of Wisconsin website.  I don’t have the url handy but you can link there from http://www.awa.org/awa/affil_clubs/rts.htm                                                                        

 Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi.

Response:

 Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi.

Perhaps not, but here is what is posted on The River Alliance of Wisconsin website: http://www.igc.apc.org/wisrivers/ "Victory on the St. Croix River Department of Interior Vetoes Stillwater Bridge As a New Year’s present to the St. Croix the Department of the Interior decided to veto the proposed Stillwater Bridge across the National Wild and Scenic St. Croix River. The decision came partly as a result of public pressure from concerned citizens. The Sierra Club, Northstar Chapter, in Minnesota, spearheaded the effort to protect the river. In early December the River Alliance teamed up with the Sierra Club to send an Urgent Alert to 600+ River Alliance members across Wisconsin asking them to write to Secretary of the Interior, Bruce Babbitt. William Schenk, Park Service Midwest Area Director, said of the project, "the massive structure would adversely affect the natural and historic scene, altering the scenic qualities of this segment of the river more than any development since designation as a National Wild and Scenic Riverway." The unnecessary project would have increased urban sprawl and added a large cement structure to a previously untouched area of the riverway. This project would have forever changed the character of the area. Sara Johnson, Executive Director of the River Alliance, said of the decision, "What a great way to start the New Year. The bridge was a terrible idea and we applaud the Department of the Interior for stopping the project. This decision sends a strong message that our Wild and Scenic Rivers are national treasures not to be messed with." If you know of another bridge project, I’d be glad to hear about it.

Response:

Yesterday I got another shock:  It seems there is now a debate over building a huge modern goddamn BRIDGE over the river…or perhaps downstream over the St. Croix into which the Namekagon flows, which is (has been?) equally wild and gorgeous.  I suggested that the "wild river" designation might induce a false sense of security among those who care about such matters…?

Fortunately that bridge was vetoed by the Department of the Interior. For more information, you might check out the River Alliance of Wisconsin website.  I don’t have the url handy but you can link there from http://www.awa.org/awa/affil_clubs/rts.htm

Response:

I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land, they can’t regulate it. hmm.  The Yellow Dog River in the western upper peninsula is a designated Wild and Scenic River.  It starts in a national wilderness area and flows through that area only a couple miles, and then flows the rest of its length through state lands, but still designated Wild and Scenic along its entire length. are there exceptions? ——Muskie

A single stretch can be designated either Wild, Scenic or Recreational or all three depending on the amount of development and access at each segment.  Take a look at http://www.nps.gov/ccso/wildriverslist.htm for a complete list.  Thanks for the info.  Yea we’re up here in GodforsakenMontana- more snow this December than any other single month in history.  Should have some good flows through the whole summer…  I’m still looking for any type of Wild and Scenic info I can find on how the designation affects the people and businesses afterwards.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land, they can’t regulate it. hmm.  The Yellow Dog River in the western upper peninsula is a designated Wild and Scenic River.  It starts in a national wilderness area and flows through that area only a couple miles, and then flows the rest of its length through state lands, but still designated Wild and Scenic along its entire length. are there exceptions? ——Muskie A single stretch can be designated either Wild, Scenic or Recreational or all three depending on the amount of development and access at each segment.  Take a look at http://www.nps.gov/ccso/wildriverslist.htm for a complete list.  Thanks for the info.  Yea we’re up here in GodforsakenMontana- more snow this December than any other single month in history.  Should have some good flows through the whole summer…  I’m still looking for any type of Wild and Scenic info I can find on how the designation affects the people and businesses afterwards.                                                                        

 I don’t know if this is within the ball-park as to what you want, but here goes:  A while ago I wrote about the construction of a huge Interstate section along the Namekagon River, a gorgeous river in Northwest Wisconsin that was the first river to go under the "protection" of federal designation as a "wild river"…long BEFORE the Intersate was built.  My point (apparently misunderstood) was that such designation apparently did nothing to protect the river in that case.  Yesterday I got another shock:  It seems there is now a debate over building a huge modern goddamn BRIDGE over the river…or perhaps downstream over the St. Croix into which the Namekagon flows, which is (has been?) equally wild and gorgeous.  I suggested that the "wild river" designation might induce a false sense of security among those who care about such matters…?

Response:

 I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are  administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land,  they can’t regulate it.  hmm.  The Yellow Dog River in the western upper peninsula is a designated Wild and Scenic River.  It starts in a national wilderness area and flows through that area only a couple miles, and then flows the rest of its length through state lands, but still designated Wild and Scenic along its entire length.  are there exceptions? ——Muskie

Response:

There is a FEDERAL wild and scenic rivers act as well as individual state designations.  The state and federal designations may overlap, conflict or complement one another in a specific situation.  Most Wild and Scenic rivers involve several jurisdictions, ie. BLM, USFS, private landowners, BIA, NativeAmerican tribes, state owned lands. Under either designation (state or federal) developing a use plan is a very complex process involving an incredible balancing act among all the competing interests.  The plans for the Deschutes and Metolius in Oregon as an example have been going since the late 80s and some issues are not yet resolved.  You might contact Oregon Parks and Recreation(via the web) or the BLM (Prineville Office) for info or copies of plans.  Also the BLM or USFS in Idaho for the upper Snake river plan. I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land, they can’t regulate it. hmm.  The Yellow Dog River in the western upper peninsula is a designated Wild and Scenic River.  It starts in a national wilderness area and flows through that area only a couple miles, and then flows the rest of its length through state lands, but still designated Wild and Scenic along its entire length. are there exceptions? ——Muskie

Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                           Tom McGuane

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the | process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. | | Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of | this designation from the point of view of recreationists, | land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of | work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? | | Many thanks, | I am cross-posting this request to rec.boats.paddle newsgroup. This might be a potential source of contacts who have experience from which you might benefit.

Ooops… meant to say Colorado…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the | process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. | | Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of | this designation from the point of view of recreationists, | land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of | work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? | | Many thanks, | I am cross-posting this request to rec.boats.paddle newsgroup. This might be a potential source of contacts who have experience from which you might benefit. Big Sky…. as in Montana? What rivers? Know the East Glacier area…. Although I am also familiar with Great Falls, however, when going to Montana to play, Great Falls is not high on the list. Jeanne                                                                        

 I don’t KNOW, but see my responses above under "Elitism…" or the like.

Response:

I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of this designation from the point of view of recreationists, land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? Many thanks,

Response:

| I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the | process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. | | Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of | this designation from the point of view of recreationists, | land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of | work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? | | Many thanks, | I am cross-posting this request to rec.boats.paddle newsgroup. This might be a potential source of contacts who have experience from which you might benefit.

Response:

I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land, they can’t regulate it. — Brian D. Nelson, Missoula, Montana Montana Flyfishing and Hunting Outfitter http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm http://www.montana.com/dno/hunt.htm

Response:

I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic.

Here’s a starting point or two: http://www.sierraclub.org/ http://www.cwo.com/~trout/ Anglerboy

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the | process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. | | Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of | this designation from the point of view of recreationists, | land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of | work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? | | Many thanks, | I am cross-posting this request to rec.boats.paddle newsgroup. This might be a potential source of contacts who have experience from which you might benefit.

Big Sky…. as in Montana?   What rivers?   Know the East Glacier area…. Although I am also familiar with Great Falls, however, when going to Montana to play, Great Falls is not high on the list. Jeanne

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Question:

A new client will have me spending a fair amount of time in Phoenix. Where do I fish (trout or bass, not picky) in this desert…or do I have to take up (ugh) golf?

Hi Steph, Call Jim Fraijo at Arizona Outdoors in Tempe.  He has always shared information freely with me (602-968-3868). — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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A new client will have me spending a fair amount of time in Phoenix. Where do I fish (trout or bass, not picky) in this desert…or do I have to take up (ugh) golf?

Scope out the AZ FF site at: http://www.azlink.com/~jshannon/ DawsonH

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A new client will have me spending a fair amount of time in Phoenix. Where do I fish (trout or bass, not picky) in this desert…or do I have to take up (ugh) golf?

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Question:

                                                                    The thing that got me was that i read Lyman Hugh’s response, when he stated that he was always disappointed to see them on the end of the line.  My question is, if the fish fight well (which they really do), and if they aren’t too ugly (which, in my book, they’re not), then why the disappointmentR?

A)…..white fish can’t jump! B)…..they fight hard for few moments, and then poop out, perhaps        because their mouths are so small, so they run out of oxygen        faster. C)…..they’re good smoked, a delicacy, in fact. Because of their        oily flesh, they take the smoke better. (But they’re hard to        keep lit). —

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I’m pretty sure you are now talking about 2 different species of fish. The whitefish in Montana looks a lot like a grayling/sucker, relatively long and thin.  The Great Lakes whitefish, a delicacy, is a chunky, somewhat oily fish that is a high-priced restaurant meal, commercially netted.  I have caught them in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area, rising at dusk to the white may flies that come in August.  They are usually broiled with paprika, andthe fillets are delicious. Whitefish are sought after up here in Ontario. You guys don’t know what

you’re missing. They fillet great and are also stuffed/baked. They must be good ifthey are sold commeircially here but I get mine thru the ice on Simcoe andwould rank them behind crappie and walleye in terms of tastiness They – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -will also hit minnows and jigs. — Richard Park    

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Well, I ditched work for the afternoon yesterday and ventured out upon the local waters and managed to catch my first brown trout (2 of ‘em, actually — I’m a novice ffisherman).  I also caught a mountain whitefish.  I’ve caught a couple of whitefish now.  The fishing proclamation calls them gamefish here in Utah, but to my knowledge, most fishermen treat them as trash fish.

Jay, I’ve caught mountain whitefish and a couple of species of lake w’fish. They taste just fine. Despite the scales, they’re salmonids (as are grayling). The mountain species lives in substantially the same waters as trout, eats almost the same stuff, and fights quite respectably. Unfortunately, there is a perception on some waters that fish fall into one of two categories (trout & trash). Sad — 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

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inhis posting on whitefish, Jay stated The fishing proclamation calls them gamefish here in Utah, but to my knowledge, most fishermen treat them as trash fish. Does anyone know if whitefish are edible?  (Well, of *course* they’re edible, but does anybody purposely fish for them and take them home for supper?)

     Whitefish are excellent eating, and they are truly wonderful smoked, which is easy to do. There is a good article and recipe in the latest issue of Big Sky Journal. Whitefish are best eaten when caught in the colder weather months, i.e. November through April.       In addition, whitefish provide some pretty good sport to any Ffisher with an open mind. They take dry flies, love nymphs, and fight respectably. They are NOT a trash fish. The term Trash Fish usually conjures up images of fish species that take over sections of river that become either too warm or too polluted to sustain hte more desireable game fish.  Also, trash fish are often accused, either rightly or wrongly,  of having a negative impact on trout or other gamefish populations, which is certainly not the case with Whitefish.      Whitefish, require the same pristine river conditions that trout do. Chances are that a river that can no longer sustain breeding trout populations can’t sustain whitefish either. They too are an indicator species for water quality. Finally they are a member of the overall family of which trout are also members, like second or third cousins, so they cant be all bad!  I wish trout fishermen who catch them would stop throwing them on the banks to die needlessly, and either return them to the rivers or take them home and make use out of them Dale Owens

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Well, Me and my girlfriend caught a couple on accident while fishing for crappie.  We took it home, and filleted them.  We froze them and then took them out of the freezer to thaw.  The thawed for a while (we went somewhere that weekend), and when we came back, they were ruined.  They filleted real nicely and had a lot of boneless meat to them, so They would not be a problem to try them and see if they are any good.  I hear they are good smoked.  We hear about them all the time in our hunting and fishing news, they are active about the same time the other fishes are spawning (they eat eggs).  People catch them on whitefish flies (what are whitefish flies), and also with a maggot on the fly.  This did not answer the question, but had to say my piece.

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Whitefish are sought after up here in Ontario. You guys don’t know what you’re missing. They fillet great and are also stuffed/baked. They must be good if they are sold commeircially here but I get mine thru the ice on Simcoe and would rank them behind crappie and walleye in terms of tastiness They will also hit minnows and jigs. — Richard Park    

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.. would not be a problem to try them and see if they are any good.  I hear they are good smoked. …

I really like them smoked (although a lot of bones, but I don’t mind) … Peter

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Jay  Clibern writes:

"The fishing proclamation calls them gamefish here in Utah, but to my knowledge, most fishermen treat them as trash fish. Does anyone know if whitefish are edible?  (Well, of *course* they’re edible, but does anybody purposely fish for them and take them home for supper?)" Jay – As ugly as they are, they are edible – smoked is the only way that I know of.  I can’t say I am a big fan, but lots of folks like them.  If you fish around Ennis, MT on the Madison, you can take 4 or 5 (or fewer) whitefish into the Resvedts Meat market, give them a fish and a dollar for each fish, and they will give you an already smoked whitefish. A big surprise to me is the fact that the whitefish is part of the trout family.  Hard to believe.  I don’t like whitefish (could you tell?), and to me nothing is as frustration as thinking you ahve a big trout on the line only to see that slimey rubber lipped head appear.  But that’s ony one man’s opinion. Lyman Hughes Ennis, MT Dallas, TX                                               Dallas, TX                                               Ennis, MT

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The round whitefish is another Great Lakes species. Locally they are called "Menominee." I catch them off Michigan piers in October to freeze up. In 1994 I fished as late as after Christmas. They bite on a single poached salmon egg on the bottom. They are timid biters and the real trick is to know when they are after the bait. My family considers them delicious. Incidently, nobody fishes for them on the Wisconsin side of the lake. Wisconsin comercial fishermen net them but I’ve never seen anyone fishing for them in the Michigan manner.

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you are correct about the Lake witefishes.  But the mountain whitefish of the Rockies and the Truckee drainage in California/Nevada ( The answer to a trivia question about distribution of Western Salomids before coming of the european )  are a completely different case then the  whitefish of the Great Lakes.        The Mountain Whitefish, otherwise Known as Salmo ( as they are a salmonid )  Carpi, have been extending their range.  It seams that with all the "progress"  and the wonderful benefit that strip mining brings to the landscape and the stream.  That the Mountain Whitefish is able to withstand the rapid changes in its environment, better then the trout.

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I think that all the answers to the original note follow pretty much what I have read and heard about Whitefish.  I have just one other thought.  I am a catch-and-releaser, mainly because I really don’t like trout that much.  But that’s another story.  I have caught a zillion whitefish in Montana and Wyoming and I can truly say that in most cases I didn’t know they were whitefish until I got them up close in the stream.  That says that they gave me the fight I was looking for and if you don’t keep the fish, what difference does it make if it isn’t a trout but gives you pleasure in catching it?  I’ll have to admit I’m always a little disappointed when I see it’s not a trout since I came to catch trout.  But – accept the fun of the catch and the fight and enjoy the experience. John B. in Mpls..

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Re: white fish-Not to rehash other wf remarks, but … they do fight well and taste great! Have caught them in Madison fried them for breakfast and grilled them. Meat is white and chunky. I caught 16 last year on dry files in about 30 minutes. Way to tell if guy down stream has a wf, the rod tip will jiggle up and down and trout have more steady bend. I got ‘em, turned away from crowd to release them, still in water and everyone thought I was catching trout!!! Was fun.

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Question:

Have only fished state parks one of which is Montauk which is the beginning of the current river, also have fished outside the park in the current without much success for the limited time involved.  Look into Crane Creek.

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Where is the 160 acre lake near Montauk Park?

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There are a couple of great spots along the Meremac River.  The first one is just down river from the Meremac Springs State Park to the Dry Fork. The water is clear and cold as a result to the spring.  I caught the nicest brown trout last fall (18").  Caught it on a 4 weight rod with 6x tippet.  The next section is a little further down river at an access point called Cardiac Hill.  You will understand why it is named that when you spend a day on the river and try and make your way back up to the car.  You need to get a map from the conservation department.  It is very difficult to find but well worth it.  Another good spot south of St. James from I-44 is a place called "Windrush".  Privately owned and stocked.  You can pay a flat rate and release or pay by the pound.  The owners limit the stream to 15 or so a day. You need to make a reservation before you show up.  Enjoy fishing and let me know other spots you come across.

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 Any Missouri flyrod fishermen here?  I would like to talk with fly fishers who frequent the Meramec,Current,or any other small Missouri streams in search of trout, smallmouth, or largemouth.                                          Thank you

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Path:

monsanto.com!newspump.wustl.edu!news.starnet.net!wupost!travel!don.wortmann Distribution: world Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: TRAVEL ONLINE / ST. LOUIS ONLINE – (314) 561-4956 Lines: 4  Any Missouri flyrod fishermen here?  I would like to talk with fly fishers who frequent the Meramec,Current,or any other small Missouri streams in search of trout, smallmouth, or largemouth.                                          Thank you

One of the things I like about Missouri is the quality hunting AND fishing.  I like to go to the trophy area downstream of Montauk State Park as well as the pay-as-you-go fly only areas within the park.  Drifting jigs & wooly worms seems to one of the tickets to success.  Still kinda new at fly fishing but I should get more practice at the 160 ac. lake nearby!  Where do you go in MO? Denis Boyle

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