Question:

Hi  Sam, If you have a full size pickup, you can load the boat into the back of it pretty easily. Right side up and transom against the cab. A rack on top of most vehicles is pretty good too if you have two healthy people to load and unload it. A small trailer is the easiest way to get a small boat around locally. You will use the boat more if it is easy to deal with. A 14′ x 48" (bottom width) Jon boat on a trailer is very nice for 2 anglers. Most 12′ Jon boats are only 32" wide at the bottom and are pretty tippy? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

Hello there folks.

I’m pretty much a novice at fishing but I have – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – been getting into it lately, and I’m at the point where I would like to go beyond fishing from land, its just too limiting.  It would be great to explore local lakes and rivers with a fishing boat.  Since I’m really not an expert fisherman I just need something that will suffice.  My two primary goals are two find something thats inexpensive and highly portable, and can fit two people, since I often fish with a friend.  I did check out a boat today, it was a Voyager series 4700 Jon boat, 12′ length.  The base price was $680, then when you factor in cost of electric motor, battery, oars, etc, it comes out to $1,100.  I can live with that price, but the thing that turned me off was that transporting the boat would be no easy task, and storing it might be a little challenging.  Are there any other options in this price range that would offer many of the same features that this boat has, but would be easier to transport and store?  Many thanks for any ideas you would have. –sam

Response:

You don’t say what part of the country you’re in. If you have room for a 12 footer on a trailer, that is definitely the way to go. Otherwise, a 12 foot johnboat will usually travel well in the bed of a full sized pickup truck. I used to have a 12 footer that I carried on the roof, and that worked OK, too. It was even a piece of cake to get it up there, as long as I had maneuvering room. I had receiver type hitch mounted on my little pickup, and instead of a hitch ball, it had a piece of tubing about 4 feet tall mounted on the hitch. Atop the tubing was an upside down trolling motor transom mount. I even had a little wheel that mounted right on the point of the bow. I could flip the boat over, pick it up by the stern and walk it anywhere with that little wheel rolling along. Then it was just a matter of picking up the stern, dropping the transom into the mounting bracket on top of the pole and tightening up the clamps. Then pick up the bow, walk it around to the front of the truck and set it on the roof rack. After I got the gear, battery and electric out of the boat, I could load it on top of the truck in about 2 or 3 minutes. As far as cost, I would wait till winter and look for a used one. You should be able to get into a 3 or 4 year old 12 to 14 footer with an electric for less than 500 bucks used. RichZ

Question:

I just knew it!  If I expanded on Zimmerman’s type of humor I would raise a lot of bottom dwellers.

Boy, how sad to try and push that one over. Good Mo-o-orning!  VietNam!

Sadly, you’re much more Bruno Kirby than Robin Williams.

Response:

Sadly, you’re much more Bruno Kirby than Robin Williams.

Jeff, old pal, I’m just George.

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

I am a pathetic ass.  But I’m a hell of a fly fisherman!

George, hell just called and said to come back. ginksux

Response:

I have a friend who once fished with you, he said you were a good fisherman. That friend is the best fisherman I know, matter of fact one of the people you speak of knowing mentioned his skills in one of his books, but to talk to him about fishing, not once will he tell how good he is. Good fishermen don’t have to brag about how good they are and in the overall scheme of things, it is just not that important George. Wayne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a pathetic ass.  But I’m a hell of a fly fisherman!

Response:

Wayne, you’re so correct and I agree 100%.  I didn’t realize I ever gave that impression or did that.  I’ve made a note of your constructive suggestion. Thanks, George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a friend who once fished with you, he said you were a good fisherman. That friend is the best fisherman I know, matter of fact one of the people you speak of knowing mentioned his skills in one of his books, but to talk to him about fishing, not once will he tell how good he is. Good fishermen don’t have to brag about how good they are and in the overall scheme of things, it is just not that important George. Wayne I am a pathetic ass.  But I’m a hell of a fly fisherman!

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

I am a pathetic ass.  But I’m a hell of a fly fisherman! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yup, You got us… However,  I suspect that if I wrote that "Gherke is a Pathetic Ass" not a single soul would rise to your defense How does that feel.. I just knew it!  If I expanded on Zimmerman’s type of humor I would raise a lot of bottom dwellers.  Besides, look how good his name looks strung out almost 20 times in the longest thread Steve has seen regarding himself in a long time. It takes a master to kick start this group out of its duldrums. mend . . . *sigh* . . . staring at drift . . . twitch! Good Mo-o-orning!  VietNam! Mr.G. "george, who is stir frying dog meat . . ." :  )

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

yah, you’re right.  *sigh* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George Gehrke : "george, who is stir frying dog meat . . ." Don’t eat it, George.  Cannibalism is illegal.

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

George Gehrke : "george, who is stir frying dog meat . . ."

Don’t eat it, George.  Cannibalism is illegal.

Response:

Yup, You got us… However,  I suspect that if I wrote that "Gherke is a Pathetic Ass" not a single soul would rise to your defense How does that feel..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just knew it!  If I expanded on Zimmerman’s type of humor I would raise a lot of bottom dwellers.  Besides, look how good his name looks strung out almost 20 times in the longest thread Steve has seen regarding himself in a long time. It takes a master to kick start this group out of its duldrums. mend . . . *sigh* . . . staring at drift . . . twitch! Good Mo-o-orning!  VietNam! Mr.G. "george, who is stir frying dog meat . . ." :  )

Response:

I just knew it!  If I expanded on Zimmerman’s type of humor I would raise a lot of bottom dwellers.  Besides, look how good his name looks strung out almost 20 times in the longest thread Steve has seen regarding himself in a long time. It takes a master to kick start this group out of its duldrums. mend . . . *sigh* . . . staring at drift . . . twitch! Good Mo-o-orning!  VietNam! Mr.G. "george, who is stir frying dog meat . . ." :  )

  george.vcf

1K Download

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes It looks, from the pictures in the Old Town catalogue as if the pack may have a  slightly shallower and more curved hull – do you think this would make much difference over the 119k? (stability, or dryness?) If you can find them both on display, take a close look at them. The cross section line drawing in the catalog for the Pack looks more like the actual profile of the 119K in real life. The bottom of the 119 isn’t nearly as flat as the catalog line drawing would suggest; it’s more like a shallow-V, with a nice curve into the bilges. The 119 should be slightly dryer as it is a couple of inches deeper in the center, bow, and stern, has a bit more flare on the sides, and has a slightly higher load rating (although I don’t think I would try to put that much into one!). Either would likely be good choice for your intended use. Good luck! Bob

Thanks for your help, Bob. I think I may go for the 119. Roger —

Response:

 I have had my "pack" for about 3 years now and have taken it from boundary waters to the everglades. Its a great little canoe…pretty stable until the water gets about 1/2-1 foot chop with hefty breeze then it gets dicey & youll want a heavier craft…easy to portage, nice & light…not a speed demon but it’ll get ya there..I prefer a kayak paddle, better tracking..hardly draws any water with my 190 lbs in it…only downside is it needs some kind of skid plate to combat abrasion on the bottoms bow & aft. I wouldnt trade it for anything except maybe a ceder strip cajun piroque Before you buy.

Response:

It looks, from the pictures in the Old Town catalogue as if the pack may have a  slightly shallower and more curved hull – do you think this would make much difference over the 119k? (stability, or dryness?)

        Again, never been inthe 119k, but the Pack is pretty damned stable in my opinion. Any way, tgb, your description of your use of the pack sounds a very pleasant way to spend a day!

        Yeah, from little trout lake to trout lake. But want to add that this is often done while on week or so solo trips, and that little canoe has handled all my gear for same. (Generally consisting of one large

Question:

Since Tony seems to be here for a bit I thought we could help him out with some flies for his local fishing back behind the body shop. I’m not sure how these would be tied though so I figured I had better get help. I imagine the Royal Scaramouche would have some red like a mugging victim, an extended body made out of a Coney Island dog, and a general silhouette like the universal New York City hand salute. Clearly the hair-wing jamoke would have a down wing tied with cat hair. Any suggestions? Cheers. Jon

Response:

I have been reading all this Germuga business and have become somewhat intrigued.  I am also a western New Yorker and have the sneaking suspicion I know this guy.  Tony – you said you have fished the Oatka.  Do you drive a maroon El Camino?  I saw a guy once there that speaks the way you type.  Any how, I feel this newsgroup deserves its own "local" pattern.  I present to you all my interpretation of the "Royal Scaramouche".  It is done in green, white, and red like the Italian flag, and is ribbed in gold like the thick neck chain that Tony surely wears.  Anybody want to attempt a hairwing Jamoke?

Pete C I think you guys is making fun of me, but its still a cool looking fly.   I like the Italian part and it looks easy to tie.  Im gonna whip up a mess of em Next time I see some guacamole on the stream doing bum stuff Ill give em one of these and say a scaramouche like you deserves one of these royal scaramouches. A couple matters I wanted to address here that you asked me.   I did use to drive one of them El Caminos and it was sort of that color but it was custome paint I did it myself.  It had one of them  small block 350s with an Edelbrock manifold and holley carb and Hooker headers and downpipes and one of them special high stall torque convertors in the tranny and a four eleven rear end with positraction.  I put all that stuff in myself so it was a custom Tony G special.  I could smoke the tires on that thing for a hundred feet or more.  It really screwed. So maybe you did see me.  I dont know.  But I got rid of it.  It was gettin old and it was getting a bad case of car cancer and it was taking too much of my valuble time there to keep on the road and running proprely and looking sharp. My cars have gotta be just so and I cant be seen in no rolling crap can it would be bad for my business.  So now its sittin out back of the shop and I take parts off of it now an then for other cars Im working on.   Cause Im fishing and huntin all the time I got me one of them new Dodge Ram 4 X 4’s pickups with the V10 and the sixteen inch wheels with them big ass tires.   Its bright red and only about 6 months old an I havent added to much to it except for a roll bar with about a zillion of them KC 100 watt halogen lights on it.  I love zappin some jamoke with em when they dont dim their high beams when Im driving at night.  You better believe that gets there attention all right.   Its not as fast as my old el camino but it gets the job done and I get me lots of complements when Im out an about.  It sits way up high so I feel like a royal scarmouche myself drving it around.  Heh. The other thing is I dont wear me no gold jewelry or any other kind of jewely for that matter except maybe on a holdiay or special day like that.   I work with too much machinery all day long to be risking getting no digits caught in nothing.  I could lose a member or somethin if I had a lot of crap danglin off of me. Well,  I gotta go.  I dont got no more time and its gonna take a few minutes to put this on the other boards.  I gotta hit the rack sos I can get out to the shop early in the AM. Thanks for the fly pattern MEOW!!!!!!! Tony G.  3133t from Medial Catastrophy and intitated by Crisis . THIS POSTED IN ALT.FAN.KARL-MALDEN.NOSE, ALT.ALIEN.VAMPIRE.FLONK.FLONK.FLONK, REC.OUTDOORS.FISHING.FLY  REC.OUTDOORS FISHING.BASS, ALT.FISHING BOYCOTT THE COLEMAN STORE FOR CENSHORSHIP www.rochesterweb.com/colemans   a.f.k-m.n.n (newbie)number of 2.

Response:

Question:

Tom,I too have had many totally satisfactory experiences with Cabela’s. Some three years ago I picked up two disparate hobbies – blackpowder shooting and flyfishing. Through many orders Cabela’s has supplied all my black powder needs and most of the flyfishing gear.  All orders were by phone and I found always the sales folk tolerant of my ignorance in both disciplines and helpful in making selections.  On one occasion involving a multipiece order they sent a fly jacket instead of a fly line… they made the switch promptly and without cost to me.   I suspect there are other providers just as good but I certainly can find no fault with Cabela’s. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Mike,     No, every experience I’ve had with them was of the first order. Tom                         <snip Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be goin downhill? any problems with them? Mike

Response:

As much as we should ALWAYS support the local tackle guys, there’s just some things that you can’t buy were you are.  Take me, for instance.  I use a fair amount of bass baits for Pike, but you can’t get Lunker City Plastics, flipping jigs, or spinnerbaits ups here.

Where in Canada are you?  Fishing Plus in Etobicoke has a fantastic selection of soft plastics (Lunker City, Zoom, Gambler, Yamamoto, Phenix, Berkley, Guido Hibdon’s brand, Don Iovino’s brand, and more).  Lots of spinnerbaits, including the Terminator, Stanley, Bulldog, Strike King, Pro-Line, etcetcetc.  Lots and lots of flipping jigs too.  Great service, excellent and most importantly *informed* advice too. Peace, Charles

Response:

Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? They used to be really pleasant and willing to do whatever was needed to make things right when they would screw up an order. Anybody else have any problems with them? Mike

My wife ordered me a bunch stuff for Christmas from Cabela’s and she was _extremely_ frustrated with the service. They were really uncooperative and did not fill orders completely or handle returns properly. When she threatened to take her business elsewhere, the response was apathetic and she ended up cancelling all her outstanding business and purchased the items through Bass Pro (who she felt did a superb job). Fortunately, she starts shopping in like September, so Christmas wasn’t ruined. I was really shocked at what a shitty job Cabela’s did on her stuff. Now I only buy from them when I get a chance (about once a year) to actually go to their store in Sidney. For mail order I’ve been able to get the items I need from BPS and Netcraft.

Response:

Never had a problem with Cabelas….. West Marine…Thats a diffrent story !!!  I hate dealing with them !!!….Leno

Response:

I’ve bought some stuff from West Marine and had good service. Their catalog is excellent, although it leans more heavily to boating and less to fishing. Still, it’s a catalog worth having, it makes quite a wish book. Their prices are very competitive. Their phone is 1-800-BOATING says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – switch to E&B ,  they are top-notch Excuse my ignorance, who is E&B?? Do you have an 800 number to order catalog?? Thanks E&B is now West Marine.  They bought them last year.

Response:

Cabelas is ok with me – I had a pair of neoprenes that had a slight leak in one foot. I contacted them and  received the information on sending it back. They promptly sent a replacement pair which i’ve been using this Summer with zero problems. Other products are # 1 as well – I feel their service is as good as anyone can offer! Keith Piercey

Response:

Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? They used to be really pleasant and willing to do whatever was needed to make things right when they would screw up an order. Anybody else have any problems with them? Mike

I haven’t had any problems in the 10 +  years I’ve been dealing with them !!

Response:

Never had a problem with Cabelas….. West Marine…Thats a diffrent story !!!  I hate dealing with them !!!….Leno

I have had problems with West Marine too.  Back orders that disappear and arguing with a phone rep who said I had to paid full catolog price when I had sales flier in front of me with another price.  A supervisor said the rep was not told of the sale. Don

Response:

Cabela’s has a small boat trailer for sail for about 440 bucks.  Does any one have an oppinion about this trailer?  Is it worth the $440 and is it hard to assemble? Thanks for any help. Wes

Response:

ordered a pontoon boat and attachments a while back. Cabelas quoted a price, shipped the attachments, and then phoned me back and wanted another $160.00 above what they’d already quoted – for shipping the pontoon boat! Was not impressed … I cancelled the order, but had they’d already shipped the attachments – had to return those, and they waited until they got them back until they credited my visa.

Response:

what is cabela’s address or phone so i can get a catalog please thanks

www.cabelas.com or (800) 237-4444.  I’ve had good service frim them so far.

Response:

Do you mean Gander Mountain’s mail order business?  Because we have at least 3 Gander Mountain stores here in Michigan. I noticed the mail order business went away shortly after opening the stores. Mushrat – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unfortunately, Cabela’s gobbled up Gander Mountain.  I guess now it’s Cabela’s vs. Bass Pro.  Time to do business with the local guys! Bob Scott

Response:

Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? They used to be really pleasant and willing to do whatever was needed to make things right when they would screw up an order. Anybody else have any problems with them?

I haven’t ordered from them since about February, but every time I’ve had to deal with their customer service people I’ve been happy.  Last fall I placed an order and when it showed up the box had been damaged and most of the stuff was gone.  They replaced everything, no problem.  In February I ordered some peacock sword from them, and the catalog said there were six swords per package.  When it showed up there were only four swords in the package.  I called and they sent another package (of four swords to make it right.  So I’m pretty happy when it comes to dealing with Cabelas. — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers!

Response:

Do you mean Gander Mountain’s mail order business?  Because we have at least 3 Gander Mountain stores here in Michigan. I noticed the mail order business went away shortly after opening the stores. Mushrat Unfortunately, Cabela’s gobbled up Gander Mountain.  I guess now it’s Cabela’s vs. Bass Pro.  Time to do business with the local guys! Bob Scott

As much as we should ALWAYS support the local tackle guys, there’s just some things that you can’t buy were you are.  Take me, for instance.  I use a fair amount of bass baits for Pike, but you can’t get Lunker City Plastics, flipping jigs, or spinnerbaits ups here. As for the Cabela vs Bass Pro Shops, if you can fish for Muskies or Pike, try Reeds for a cat.  I’ve been fairly pleased so far.  Also, here in Canada, there is the Fishing Hole Cat and the Whole Sale Sports Cat.

Response:

E&B is now West Marine.  They bought them last year.

West Marine is primarily a boating store so you might not find the clerks as knowledgable as those of Cabela’s, as well as having a smaller selection, their prices on lures and such are outrageous.  Walmart is much more affordable. Marcus Ward 505 US 7569 "Voodoo" International 505 Class Yacht Racing Association Central Missouri State University – Department of Psychology http://www.throb.net/mward/

Response:

Go to:       http://www.cabelas.com for a free catalog. BTW I have been buying from them for four years and they treat me like a valuable customer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FWIW, we have had the same good service for many years, with no glitches.  We get about two orders/year. SL Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? <snip out of the items I had originally ordered.  Two weeks after the call I finally got written notice that the items were out of stock. That was not the Cabelas I have come to expect. Mark Faulkner what is cabela’s address or phone so i can get a catalog please thanks

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FWIW, we have had the same good service for many years, with no glitches.  We get about two orders/year. SL Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? <snip out of the items I had originally ordered.  Two weeks after the call I finally got written notice that the items were out of stock. That was not the Cabelas I have come to expect. Mark Faulkner

what is cabela’s address or phone so i can get a catalog please thanks

Response:

Now that they’ve grown HUGE, I would imagine this kind of thing would start to be a problem.  As Cabela’s got bigger and bigger, I liked doing business with Gander Mountain a lot more.  The no.2 guy is usually trying harder, and customer service is a sure-fire way to pick up repeat customers. Unfortunately, Cabela’s gobbled up Gander Mountain.  I guess now it’s Cabela’s vs. Bass Pro.  Time to do business with the local guys! Bob Scott

Response:

switch to E&B ,  they are top-notch – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? They used to be really pleasant and willing to do whatever was needed to make things right when they would screw up an order. Anybody else have any problems with them? Mike

Response:

Dear Mike,      No, every experience I’ve had with them was of the first order. Recently I unpacked an anchor rode I had purchased nine months ago, but had not used.  I found a flaw in the rope, called them, they offered to replace the rode without hesitation.  That’s beyond the call of duty. Take care, Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? They used to be really pleasant and willing to do whatever was needed to make things right when they would screw up an order. Anybody else have any problems with them? Mike

Response:

I haven’t bought too much from Cabela’s in the past but this year I ordered a lot of stuff in several orders.  I had numerous conversations with "product specialists" , sometimes for my ignorance on superlines or more info about a rod or lure and I was always satisfied.  When it was a dimension not in the catalog they would run off and get me an immediate answer. I returned about four things for exchange or refund for reasons varied from broken to not what I expected.  Always prompt and no problems.  So far I like Cabela’s. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? They used to be really pleasant and willing to do whatever was needed to make things right when they would screw up an order. Anybody else have any problems with them? Mike In May, two items out of about a 10 item order were wrong – and not even close.  I got two fleece jackets instead of two sets of rain gear pants. First time in many years of Cabela’s orders that that has happened.  I immediately returned them with the appropriate form, requesting the original items.  Weeks passed.  I finally called, and by then they were out of the items I had originally ordered.  Two weeks after the call I finally got written notice that the items were out of stock. That was not the Cabelas I have come to expect. Mark Faulkner

I have never (I try occasionally every couple of years) had quick response to an exchange request. The only way I have found that works is to reorder what I want and return what I didn’t want for credit. I buy almsot nothing from Cabela’s anymore because they are so bad about listing sizes, weights, and strengths. Bass Pro is much better.                                 Erik from SF/Boston

Response:

FWIW, we have had the same good service for many years, with no glitches.  We get about two orders/year. SL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? <snip out of the items I had originally ordered.  Two weeks after the call I finally got written notice that the items were out of stock. That was not the Cabelas I have come to expect. Mark Faulkner

Response:

Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? They used to be really pleasant and willing to do whatever was needed to make things right when they would screw up an order. Anybody else have any problems with them? Mike

In May, two items out of about a 10 item order were wrong – and not even close.  I got two fleece jackets instead of two sets of rain gear pants. First time in many years of Cabela’s orders that that has happened.  I immediately returned them with the appropriate form, requesting the original items.  Weeks passed.  I finally called, and by then they were out of the items I had originally ordered.  Two weeks after the call I finally got written notice that the items were out of stock. That was not the Cabelas I have come to expect. Mark Faulkner

Response:

Is anyone else finding Cabela’s customer service to be going downhill? They used to be really pleasant and willing to do whatever was needed to make things right when they would screw up an order. Anybody else have any problems with them? Mike

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! Just one warning from disappointed customer! I had an accident in last august and i broke my Orvis rod. Of course my rod has so called no questions asked quarantee for 25 years since i’m the original owner. So i left my rod in local dealer which send it to local importer – This all happened in during august last year and now it is the beginning of the fishing season and the rod is still in repair!! Nice work Orvis – it is the last of your rods that i’m going to buy! I would be even willing to pay for a decent repair time but this is ridiculous. May this Orvis 25year quarantee means that i have to now wait for 23 years to get my rod repaired… Disappointed customer -Timo ps. IMHO No questions asked quarantees are not good for fly fishing – i’m afraid that smaller rod makers will suffer eventually since the amount of broken rods will increase when the rods gets older…

Same with me Timo, I had similar problem with Orvis in the Netherlands. Their unconditional waranty works great in USA, but outside you will have to wait about a full year to get your repair done or your rod replaced. I changed to Sage and my local dealer replaces every broken (if ever) Sage immediately and gets his from Sage within a few weeks. Ger.

Response:

I disagree, Dave. Having broken my PM-10 9′0" 8 wgt rod two years ago, I did some inquiries and found significant turnaround time between going thru the dealer and mailing it back directly to Orvis. My shipping costs were bearable given the fact that it was the height of saltwater season, and it took only 3 weeks to get it back.  Time is money, and when it comes to my fishing time, it’s worth $1000 an hour…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any Orvis dealer will take care of it for you.  Or you could ship directly to Orvis in Manchester, VT, but you’d pay the shipping charge.  Let your closest Orvis dealer do it.   Dave LaCourse

Response:

<<I disagree, Dave. Having broken my PM-10 9′0" 8 wgt rod two years ago, I did some inquiries and found significant turnaround time between going thru the dealer and mailing it back directly to Orvis. My shipping costs were bearable given the fact that it was the height of saltwater season, and it took only 3 weeks to get it back. First time I broke a rod (tip in a door – dumb), it took 4 weeks — through the dealer.  Second time (butt – fell on it — dumb) it took two weeks.  We’re about even.   Dave L.

Response:

When I needed my PM-10 9-wt replaced (I bought the rod for $145, on "clearance"), I walked into the Orvis Manchester, VT store, and the clerk walked into the back room and came out with a new rod.  I’d have to say it took about 30-40 seconds. Bob Scott Orvis fan

Response:

well that’s still better than a Reddington which is worth nothing – – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What do you expect them to do after you paid eight times what the rod cost to build? — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT.  I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom

Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Response:

Yes, I suppose the Reddington won’t be worth much either since Orvis bought them. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO http://users.ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well that’s still better than a Reddington which is worth nothing – What do you expect them to do after you paid eight times what the rod cost to build? — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT. I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Response:

Finally, someone who understands the truth behind these "Guarantees". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What do you expect them to do after you paid eight times what the rod cost to build? — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT.  I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom

Response:

What do you expect them to do after you paid eight times what the rod cost to build? — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT.  I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom

Response:

  I had an accident in last august and i broke my Orvis rod.   Of course my rod has so called no questions asked quarantee   for 25 years since i’m the original owner. So i left my rod in   local dealer which send it to local importer – This all happened   in during august last year and now it is the beginning of the   fishing season and the rod is still in repair!! Nice work Orvis –   it is the last of your rods that i’m going to buy! I would be even   willing to pay for a decent repair time but this is ridiculous.

I’ve had no problem with them at all – nor has anyone I’ve ever talked to.  They are prompt and courteous.  Even so, I’d never leave a rod and not do anything about it for months.  I always keep close tabs on my repairs, and have never had problems with _any_ company’s guarantee.  Things occasionally get lost or misplaced. What you didn’t tell us is what you have actually done to rectify the situation.  A simple call to Orvis would handle this without problem – something you should have done about 6 months ago.  It would be a hell of a lot more productive than taking time to rant on this newsgroup. Also, if you feel so strongly that these guarantees are bad for flyfishing, then 1) why did you not buy a rod from someone who doesn’t offer one and 2) why did you send your rod in for warrantee work?  If you actually feel this way, both of those actions are more than a little hypocritical. -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

Dave, thanks for the info. I was hoping I could do this. I still have the card that was attached to the registration card (which was already sent in) and it talks about shipping to their Vermont site. My problem was just trying to figure out how to get a box that it would fit in. Thanks again. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bob Bently writes: <<With regards to the Orvis guarantee, can I take a rod to any Orvis dealer and have him ship it back for repair/replacement, or do I have to take it to the dealer I bought it from? Any Orvis dealer will take care of it for you.  Or you could ship directly to Orvis in Manchester, VT, but you’d pay the shipping charge.  Let your closest Orvis dealer do it. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Bob Bently writes:

<<With regards to the Orvis guarantee, can I take a rod to any Orvis dealer and have him ship it back for repair/replacement, or do I have to take it to the dealer I bought it from? Any Orvis dealer will take care of it for you.  Or you could ship directly to Orvis in Manchester, VT, but you’d pay the shipping charge.  Let your closest Orvis dealer do it.   Dave LaCourse

Response:

I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT.  I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom

Response:

With regards to the Orvis guarantee, can I take a rod to any Orvis dealer and have him ship it back for repair/replacement, or do I have to take it to the dealer I bought it from? I ask, because I broke my new Silver Label 8wt of the weekend. There is a dealer nearby, but I bought it from another dealer which is 3.5 hours away? Thanks for any info. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT.  I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom

Response:

Timo Harjunen writes:

<<I had an accident in last august and i broke my Orvis rod. Of course my rod has so called no questions asked quarantee for 25 years since i’m the original owner. So i left my rod in local dealer which send it to local importer – This all happened in during august last year and now it is the beginning of the fishing season and the rod is still in repair!! Nice work Orvis – it is the last of your rods that i’m going to buy! I would be even willing to pay for a decent repair time but this is ridiculous. It may be your local dealer that is the trouble, Timo.  I accidently broke two Orvis rods (at different times over the years) and they were "in the shop" four weeks (the longest period).  You should write to Orvis in Manchester, Vermont, USA, and ask them about it.   Do not expect your dealer to work for you on this.   I suspect you are in Finland — good Finnish names — so the mail may also be the culprit in all of this. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Hello! Just one warning from disappointed customer! I had an accident in last august and i broke my Orvis rod. Of course my rod has so called no questions asked quarantee for 25 years since i’m the original owner. So i left my rod in local dealer which send it to local importer – This all happened in during august last year and now it is the beginning of the fishing season and the rod is still in repair!! Nice work Orvis – it is the last of your rods that i’m going to buy! I would be even willing to pay for a decent repair time but this is ridiculous. May this Orvis 25year quarantee means that i have to now wait for 23 years to get my rod repaired… Disappointed customer -Timo ps. IMHO No questions asked quarantees are not good for fly fishing – i’m afraid that smaller rod makers will suffer eventually since the amount of broken rods will increase when the rods gets older…

Response:

Question:

I am only 16 and just starting to flyfish. I plan to do some fly fishing on a local stream this weekend. What are the best kinds of fly’s to use?

Hi Jared, The simple thing to do for this weekend would be to check with your local fly shop to see what info they have on the local river you plan to fish.  It’s in their best interest to help you be successfull so don’t hesitate to ask.  If they won’t give you the time of day, go to a different shop. The suggestions Donn gave you are the best for the long term though.  Learn the basic life-cycles of mayflies, caddisflies, stoneflies, and midges.  Learn to identify them.  Don’t need to know the particular species or latin name, but at least learn to tell the difference between mayflies and caddisflies, etc.  To start, ignore the latin names most books will give, though they may interest you later.   Remeber, the other spelling for entomolgy is "bugs".  Learn how to take a stream sample without destroying a lot of habitat.  What works can change from hour to hour let alone week to week and if you can identify what’s available you’ll do much better than "chuck it and chance it."  You’ll never learn it all, but you’ll have a great time trying.                                      good fishing,                                              Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

Response:

Jared, That is a question that even 66 year old men ask.  This is what fly fishing is all about and what you spend a life time doing in this sport to try to figure out.  The fly can change from one moment to the next to the next and so on.  I can change right in front of you for several hundred different reasons. Do not get overwhelmed by this but just look at it as a challenge.  Do yourself a favor and try to do a couple of the following things and it will make you a much better fly fisher. First and foremost – learn the basics of entomology; this looks hard but really isn’t.  Get with another fisherman who understands the basics and have him explain it to you.  Pick up any of many primers on this to help you. Next – Check the streams you intend to fish for what type of insects you have and when they hatch and how they act. Next – Begin gathering those insects in specimen bottles and preserving them for future studies.  Hopefully in the not too distant future, you can begin tying flies and you will have a data base to begin to copy.  Pick up some isopropyl alcohol from Wal-Mart, K-Mart or any drug store; it is very inexpensive.  Put a solution of 90% alcohol and 10% water in the vial and then add your insect and cover. Put a sticker of some kind on it and put what it is and where you got it from.  If you want to begin a diary of all this, it will help you learn faster and give you tremendous abount of your own information that is better than anything you hear or read. Next – Always be observant for changes in anything in or around the river and what effect it has on the fish and insects.  Go with other fly fishers and ask questions.   Your brain is a many giga-byte hard drive and just begin to fill it with as many bite of information as you can.  You will never come close to getting them all and just never stop; it is a life long endeavor. This is not tuff stuff and as long as you enjoy it, it will be easy and fun and make you an experinced fly fisher at the same time. Donn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am only 16 and just starting to flyfish. I plan to do some fly fishing on a local stream this weekend. What are the best kinds of fly’s to use? Thankyou Tight Lines, Jared Staskiel "In our family, there was no clear line between religion and                fly fishing"                     —Norman Maclean (1976)

Response:

I am only 16 and just starting to flyfish. I plan to do some fly fishing on a local stream this weekend. What are the best kinds of fly’s to use? Thankyou Tight Lines, Jared Staskiel "In our family, there was no clear line between religion and                 fly fishing"                     —Norman Maclean (1976)

Response:

Question:

Been thinking of heading down to the Kenai/Russian for trout and dollies and maybe lakers near Skilak.  Anybody interested in sharing any recent reports of the area?  I thought I’d go down Thursday and give it a try. —                  GEORGE SCHERRER                   ANCHORAGE, ALASKA             "I’d rather be flyfishing"             http://www.alaska.net/~gjs/

Response:

Been thinking of heading down to the Kenai/Russian for trout and dollies and maybe lakers near Skilak.  Anybody interested in sharing any recent reports of the area?  I thought I’d go down Thursday and give it a try. —                 GEORGE SCHERRER                  ANCHORAGE, ALASKA            "I’d rather be flyfishing"            http://www.alaska.net/~gjs/

Hi George:   I lived in Kenai until 1992 and at that time the Kenai and Russian was closed to fishing until June 15. Has that changed? Jim

Response:

Question:

[some deleted] But the attitude by these anglers was" I caught and released that fish on a real artificial fly (probably a chartreuse egg pattern with attractant sprayed on it ) with a  2 lb tippet. So I must be a better sportsmen then the guy in the lawn chair." This is nothing but alot of Crap in my book.

I sense and share your frustration Mike.  Hang tough and keep up the good work. TimW

Response:

The driving force behind  this definition was to eliminate the use of premolded scented baits (berkely power eggs) that were LEGALLY artificial until January of this year.

That is definitely a point we have to keep in mind. The message that started this thread made all sorts of dire pronouncements that any artificial material would be prohibited in fishing. As several people pointed out, that pretty much eliminates steel hooks, synthetic yarn, nylon monofilament leaders and much of what we use to fish with. It’s also the exact opposite of what was really being proposed. Let’s leave off the alarmist garbage and deal with the real issues. The worm fisherman is no more or less holy than we of the exalted fly genre. Different people enjoy different types of fishing and different waters require different regulations. The real question is whether Power Eggs(tm) and the like constitute some sort of unfair advantage in certain waters or are conducive to higher mortality through deep hooking. That’s presumably why we pay big bucks to marine biologists to set these policies. — |     Liberty Communications — Spreading the Word     | |                Michael P. Thompson                   |

Response:

snip The real question is whether Power Eggs(tm) and the like constitute some sort of unfair advantage in certain waters or are conducive to higher mortality through deep hooking. That’s presumably why we pay big bucks to marine biologists to set these policies.

snip I’m not sure I understand the concept of "unfair advantage" when it comes to fishing.  The first thing that came to mind was some fly fishermen being upset about bait working better (I know that’s not what you meant Michael). Ross Wilson

Response:

Mike, I think there’s no doubt that a 3-inch Power Tube is an "artificial" under the new regulations. If it were less than 1.5 inches it would not be an artificial. After thinking more about your posts, however, I guess I’ve come around to your view that the new regs won’t cover a variety of possible situations, especially ones where there is scented material made part of a lure or fly over 1.5 inches long. Best wishes.  Jeff

Response:

Let’s leave off the alarmist garbage and deal with the real issues. The worm fisherman is no more or less holy than we of the exalted fly genre. Different people enjoy different types of fishing and different waters require different regulations.

Except the worm fishermen doesn’t lobby, pressure, or persuade those that we pay the big bucks to exclude the flyfishermen from their preferred methods of enjoyment. respectfully, Mike Miller

Response:

if it weren’t for the greedy flyfishing industry, this would not even be an issue..IMHO..protectionism… TimW

Greed……no doubt, but I suspect more than just the Fly – fishing industry regards, Mike

Response:

Ok Jeff, so answer this question please, Can you or can you not fish with a 3" BERKLEY POWER TUBE? regards, Mike

Response:

if it weren’t for the greedy flyfishing industry, this would not even be an issue..IMHO..protectionism… TimW Greed……no doubt, but I suspect more than just the Fly – fishing industry

Why would any other group *care* about a flyfishing only definition ? TimW

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if it weren’t for the greedy flyfishing industry, this would not even be an issue..IMHO..protectionism… TimW Greed……no doubt, but I suspect more than just the Fly – fishing industry Why would any other group *care* about a flyfishing only definition ? TimW

The driving force behind  this definition was to eliminate the use of premolded scented baits (berkely power eggs) that were LEGALLY artificial until January of this year. Spinney Mountain Res. was the focus of much of the debate.  As you probably know Spinney is managed as "Gold Medal" Water with artificial  fly & lure only tackle restrictions and a one fish over 20" bag limit and the canyon  recently had Gold Medal regulations extended to the dam. My reference to purists, elitists, attitudes comes from experience fishing these waters and a witness to the debates over the issue at the commission meetings. On opening day 1995 at Spinney, there was a gentlemen fishing with power eggs. He had brought along the lawn chair and 4 young children. This guy caught about 6 trout that day on his chartreuse colored power eggs allowing each of the kids an opportunity to bring one in. He kept one and as far as I could tell no  harm came to the fish he released. But this guy came under heavy and constant critizism from the crowd (who were primarily fishless) because in their *holier than thou minds* he was a scondrel for using such a bait (although technically he was not breaking any laws.) Now, I will not dispute the fact that PASSIVELY fishing such a bait will probably kill alot of fish that by law have to be released. But at Spinney I have witnessed many a fine fish played to exhaustion, kept out of the water for extreme periods of time, (for the picture ceremony)  dropped on the rocks a couple of times, drug along the bank in the sand, and kicked back into the water because it was only 19 7/8" long. But the attitude by these anglers was" I caught and released that fish on a real artificial fly (probably a chartreuse egg pattern with attractant sprayed on it ) with a  2 lb tippet. So I must be a better sportsmen then the guy in the lawn chair." This is nothing but alot of Crap in my book. regards, Mike Miller

Response:

I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this. The intent of the Colorado’s definition of what constitutes an *artificial* fly or lure was simply to eliminate scented baits, such as power baits & eggs.  Unfortunately the wording is very confusing and I think the C.D.O.W. doesn’t totallly understand what they have said. It will probably be un – enforceable except for the obvious infractions.

I was surprised (not pleasantly) to notice that Mike Miller was the only one of the many who commented on this who seemed to have actually read the regulation. Most others assumed that what Paul had "just heard" was the gospel truth, then proceeded to denigrate the DOW for being so asinine. It is pretty obvious that very few contemporary fishing flies could be tied without using artificial or synthetic materials. Even rayon thread would be prohibited by such a regulation. Besides, it would be virtually unenforceable and bad for public relations. To prohibit artificial material from an artificial lure such as a fly is counter to the whole idea behind bait regulations. They generally seek to limit the use of live bait and artificial substances which simulate live bait (such as power bait, etc.). It would not make sense for anyone to prohibit the use of artificial materials in an artificial lure. People would have to start carving their bass plugs out of wood again. My point is, on the face of it, this "report" of what Paul had "heard" is not credible and needs to be checked out before we go griping about what stupidity the DOW is currently engaged in. — |     Liberty Communications — Spreading the Word     | |                Michael P. Thompson                   |

Response:

J Let’s not forget that what they are *trying* to do is to find a J definition that excludes powerbait and its related "scented lure" J products. A good point.  Trying is the operative word here and sloppy legislation does not a good bill make.  Having lived in Denver for two years, I applaud setting waters aside for bait (power bait, although synthetic, is still bait IMHO) and artificial approaches. Heck, I _enjoy_ bait fishing once or twice a year for stockies. As a lifelong redneck I have drown my share of worms and crickets and defend anyone’s right to do so. It is up to the folks at wildlife to make sure that catch and keep does not endanger wild fish. Well, there’s my opinion anyway. But thanks for your post!      Trey Monroe

Response:

For example, I’ve fallen in love with the Stimulator this year… it has brought some very large fish to shore.  Why?  Is it a caddis imitation or a stone fly imitation?  I say neither… it’s probably that orange piece in the front of the fly that looks like a Salmon Egg to the fish.  A Stimulator doesn’t closely imitate anything in the water, but sure catches some large fish.

A salmon egg floating on the surface being eaten by what? The Stimulator has the classic profile of both fluttering caddis and stones. Further, how does your egg theory explain the success of the same fly with olive, peacock, and tan thorax regions?

Response:

: A salmon egg floating on the surface being eaten by what? The Stimulator : has the classic profile of both fluttering caddis and stones. Further, : how does your egg theory explain the success of the same fly with olive, : peacock, and tan thorax regions? For me, they haven’t been nearly as effective as the orange color.  And I’m not certain the color triggers anything near a salmon egg… perhaps it looks like a big eye.  My point is that there are better imitations of the things you mention, but the Stimmy works well, often better. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

if it weren’t for the greedy flyfishing industry, this would not even be an issue..IMHO..protectionism… TimW

Response:

Someone who has the new regulations, please read them and tell me if a 1.6 inch artificial Power Worm is artificial under the new regulation. My reading suggests that they are to be considered "artificial"

This issue arose at Spinney Mountain on opening day 1996, several individuals were using 3" Berkley Power Tubes. They looked identical  to other tube jigs (i.e. gitizits). The State Parks law enforcement officer  explained to me that according to his instructions they were lega, stating they were over 1 1/2". Also a DOW officer checked these fishermen and did not issue a citation or stop them from being used.   However, I contacted the DOW on this issue and at least one official said "no way, they cannot be used and that all  power bait is illegal. " As I stated in a previous post, except for obvious infractions (power eggs)  this law will be un-enforcable. Even the DOW is confused. regards, Mike Miller

Response:

I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

Response:

I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

No Colorado didn’t. I think I’ve heard that F&W is discussing not allowing power bait and other non-natural baits to be fished in the artificals only waters.

Response:

I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

Know any suppliers of barbless *bone* hooks?? — The views expressed are my own and does not represent those of my employer.

Response:

: I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not : use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, : it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this. Interesting, and really raises some issues.  For example, I’ve fallen in love with the Stimulator this year… it has brought some very large fish to shore.  Why?  Is it a caddis imitation or a stone fly imitation?  I say neither… it’s probably that orange piece in the front of the fly that looks like a Salmon Egg to the fish.  A Stimulator doesn’t closely imitate anything in the water, but sure catches some large fish. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

The intent of the Colorado’s definition of what constitutes an *artificial* fly or lure was simply to eliminate scented baits, such as  power baits & eggs.  Unfortunately the wording is very confusing and I think the C.D.O.W. doesn’t totallly understand what they have said. It will probably be un – enforceable except for the obvious infractions. It says something like anything less than 1 1/2 inches long cannot be made out of *plastic* or scented material. The question that has come up is what if it is over  1 1/2 inches long  (Berkley Power Tubes for example) or if  it is under 1 1/2inches does this exclude *foam* or even plastic tube jigs (unscented)? And can you add scent to a fly or lure less than 1 1/2 "? regards, Mike Miller – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

Response:

(PaulS41846) writes: I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

Does that mean the hook has to be made from a thorn? Steel was synthetic the last time I looked. Don Burns

Response:

(PaulS41846) writes: I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

Oh Yeah! Another reason to simply quit ffing and take up something else (billiards comes immediately to mind….) With all the problems facing the resource, and the sport in general, now the gov is picking at minutea (sp?). The saddest part is that an early and powerful proponent of synth materials for flies, John Betts, lives in Denver. If there is some percieved ecological threat with these materials why didn’t they look at those GD’d foam bobbers (strike indicators) that litter our streams too! Does that mean the hook has to be made from a thorn? Steel was synthetic the last time I looked.

Good Point <G!  Sounds like our politicians are doing their best to screw everything up as usual.  Like with the Rimm Report! </chaz (not Sue)

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P I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not P use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, P it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this. Hmm, if it isn’t or hasn’t been alive and uses only sight attraction, not smell to attract fish, and you can cast it with a fly rod, that’s close enough to a fly for me. Besides, if this passes, will enforcement be forced to looking through people’s fly boxes to make sure that there is no crystal flash? What about nylon thread, rayon floss, or heavens to gimbles, micro fibbets tailing! Sounds like missplaced emphasis IMHO.      Trey Monroe

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Power Bait on the frying pan river…? Lucky Lou’s…? Getcha thumped…that’s fer sure… In practice, there is a VERY fine line (no pun intended) between a Glo-Bug and a Lucky Lou.  Or a Pittendrigh foam after a little fish slime and power bait.  Or a san Juan worm and a red wriggler.  It’s all in our heads man, that one is somehow better then the other…isn’t it ?   What is the difference between a Kastmaster and a Zonker ? TimW (In case you think that I miss the point….) I have retrieved slimy GloBugs from the gills and gullets of bleeding trout as deeply as shore chucked pautzkees. I have had wooly worms and buggers kill fish.  I have sent small trout flying into the bushes on a #14 adams on an ‘overzealous strike’.  Fish die man no matter WHAT you hook ‘em on…

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Question:

I’m just getting in to the sport and could use some advice on rod selection.  I’ve been looking at the Sage Discovery systems #5 9′ pack rod 4 piece, I think.  This seems to be the best rod for the things I’ll be doing (i.e. backpacking, fishing Montana, OR, WA in the summers and New England in the Fall and Spring) my dilemma is this: EVERY retailer I’ve called has had an "outfit" price of precisely the same amount, that is $280.  I’m a little surprised that there is literally NO variation in price.  Is this normal?  Am I calling all the wrong places or all the right ones?  Is this a good beginner rod that I’ll be able to grow into? I was thinking of going to the Orvis store in Boston this weekend and seeing if they had anything comperable, although from what I can tell Orvis looks to be the Nordstrom of fly fishing gear.  Is this a correct assessment?  Will Orvis have an outfit in my under $300 price range or will I be sneered out of the store by snotty, AMEX gold wielding yuppies?  Any advice you can give will be helpful.  Thanks in advance, Jack

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Well, first no I wouldn’t expect to find any bargains at an Orvis shop. It’s great stuff, but pricey. I’m building a rod for light salt water, an 8-9 weight and I got a St. Croix Imperial blank for $60.00. Now of course it’s not a Sage, but I’ve tried out the 2 piece versions and I think they’ll do just fine. The finished rods go $130 – $140 on the 7-1-93 – 6/30/94 price list, can’t imagine they’d be much higher. Couple this with a nice Medalist reel and you’ll be in business for under $200. Spend the change on a weekend trip.

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Peter… I would have to disagree with your assessment of the sage sp being less forgiving than the RPL’s.  The RPL’s action is so much quicker that your timing must be very precise, whereas the SP flexes in a manner ‘that could be categorized as medium,id est more forgiving and easier to throw.  Unfortunately this ease of castability comes at a price.  I took the dive and bought the 3 pc. 8wt. and a 9 ft. 4wt. ( pro deal) and would recommed them both particularly the 4 wt.  FOr those without positive cash flow or pro pricing ( who should this be addressed to anyway?)  and especially a beginner, you cannot go wrong with any of the large manufacturers.  In the end its all a matter of taste.  I’ve thrown MANY rods and have my own opinions which I would be glad to share with anyone who wants to hear them.  One last thing… I know of a custom rod maker in FLagstaff Arizona, Steffan Brothers, who make some of the best blanks and rods in the business and they are reasonably priced too. I have their number and can get them at a discount.  GOod Luck and tight lines! Henry

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