Question:

I’m a little confused by how a braided loop failure could cause the loss of a fly line, unless you use a loop-to-loop connection between your line and backing.

Actually, I use them there too. I can see if you didn’t fasten it on good it could get pushed off by a guide as the line went into the backing. I use thread and Aquaseal to fasten the end of the connector on instead of the shrink tubing partly for that reason. — Charlie…

Response:

Hello Dave, A pretty standard way to connect leaders to floating freshwater fly lines is to needle-nail knot on a butt section of mono first. The section should be around 2/3 the diameter of the end of your fly line and at least the same diameter of the butt of the tapered leader being used. Averagely this is 25# mono that is around .021", but this can vary depending on the diameter of the end or point of the floating line used. I have seen butts used from 6" to 18" but a foot long is pretty average. Sunset "Amnesia" shooting line, Hal Janssen "Leader Control" (clear Amnesia) or Maxima "Ultra Green" are some popular mono around here for fresh water butts. Some will put a small perfection loop on the end of the butt or some will use a 3 or 4 turn blood knot to attach their knotless tapered leader. Your local fly shop should be able to show you how this is done. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After hearing lots of negative comments about the loop connectors that come with some lines (Orvis), and noticing that my line tips tend to sink a bit, I’ve decided to experiment and replace the loop connectors with a short length of nail-knotted leader ending in a small loop. The question:  What length, weight, type, even brands of leaders would be best for this?  I’m sure the answer is related to the weight and type of flyline the leader is being attached to — I’d be making this changeover on the following: Orvis wf 5 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating bass line. Thanks for your help! Dave

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After hearing lots of negative comments about the loop connectors that come with some lines (Orvis), and noticing that my line tips tend to sink a bit, I’ve decided to experiment and replace the loop connectors with a short length of nail-knotted leader ending in a small loop. The question:  What length, weight, type, even brands of leaders would be best for this?  I’m sure the answer is related to the weight and type of flyline the leader is being attached to — I’d be making this changeover on the following: Orvis wf 5 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating bass line. Thanks for your help! Dave I use a nail knot to tie my leader directly to the fly line. I hate the braided loops. Particularly after after one failed and I lost a fly line and a striper size XXL. Paul

I’m a little confused by how a braided loop failure could cause the loss of a fly line, unless you use a loop-to-loop connection between your line and backing. — Scott Reverse first field of address to reply

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] I use a nail knot to tie my leader directly to the fly line. I hate the braided loops. Particularly after after one failed and I lost a fly line and a striper size XXL. Paul I’m a little confused by how a braided loop failure could cause the loss of a fly line, unless you use a loop-to-loop connection between your line and backing.

It was a shooting head to running line. The fish decided it was too close to the boat. It took off and on the way throught the guides the shrink tube that keeps the braid from fraying must have hit a guide that released the tension on the braid and bye bye fish and shooting head. I went home and cut off all the braided loops from all my lines and tied nail knots on all leader and backing to fly line connections. Haven’t had a problem in the 9 years since I did that. Paul

Response:

I did exactly that . . . I got rid of the braided connectors and went to the mono nail knot/perfection loop. Mine is about 4 inches in length as attached. I used the backend of a leader that I commonly use. I figured it should be similar to the leader material in weight and make up, so I used one! At this point, I wont go back to the braided connectors. I did it to the following: Orvis Wonderline WF 5wt SA Mastery Series GPX WF 5wt I am also planning on using this method on my 7wt when I get the rod built!! Wayne says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After hearing lots of negative comments about the loop connectors that come with some lines (Orvis), and noticing that my line tips tend to sink a bit, I’ve decided to experiment and replace the loop connectors with a short length of nail-knotted leader ending in a small loop. The question:  What length, weight, type, even brands of leaders would be best for this?  I’m sure the answer is related to the weight and type of flyline the leader is being attached to — I’d be making this changeover on the following: Orvis wf 5 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating bass line. Thanks for your help! Dave

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After hearing lots of negative comments about the loop connectors that come with some lines (Orvis), and noticing that my line tips tend to sink a bit, I’ve decided to experiment and replace the loop connectors with a short length of nail-knotted leader ending in a small loop. The question:  What length, weight, type, even brands of leaders would be best for this?  I’m sure the answer is related to the weight and type of flyline the leader is being attached to — I’d be making this changeover on the following: Orvis wf 5 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating bass line. Thanks for your help! Dave

I use a nail knot to tie my leader directly to the fly line. I hate the braided loops. Particularly after after one failed and I lost a fly line and a striper size XXL. Paul

Response:

My floating lines are set up with braided loops and nail knotted mono/perfection loops on the sinking ones.  Braided loops can trap air and hold the tip of a sinking line up.  I once used one on a Type 5 sinktip only to see the belly two foot down and the tip on the surface.  Since then all sinking lines have been mono only.  As Ken mentioned, they should be as short as practical and roughly  two thirds the thickness of the tip or about mid way in thickness between the leader butt and line tip. All braided loops will fail if they are not installed properly.  The end of the floating fly line should be sealed with glue to prevent the ingress of water that would cause the tip to sink.  The tip of the line should be inserted fully into the sleeve and as far as possible into the doubled over section of the loop.  A nail knot should be tied on the opposite end of the sleeve, securing it to the line.  The heat shrink tubing should be placed over the knot and the end of the sleeve to prevent fraying as well as smoothing its passage through the guides.  Glue shouldn’t be used on the sleeve as it can make it brittle and prone to breakage.  Braided loops should be periodically checked for fraying. Both loop system can fail, even when well installed.  Enough pressure can break a braided loop, pull a nail knot off the line, or break a perfection loop.  The trick is to make sure that the transition loop isn’t the weakest link.  A properly installed braided loop provide superior turnover due to their inherent stiffness when properly installed and are especially suited to use with heavy sinking leaders like Airflo Polyleaders.  Their tendency to float helps keep the tips of floating lines up plus they can also serve as strike indicators if you use a bright coloured heat shrink tube. HTH Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Bill, After a phone conversation with your staff about 3 weeks ago, I went to the nail knot/surgeon’s or perfection loop set-up for all my saltwater rigs.  I also shortened my Orvis 38 ft. shooting head to 30 ft. per their suggestion and casting improved tremendously.  I kept trying to buy some shooting heads from those guys and they insisted I check locally to see what was being used successfully.  I have to say they ended up getting me steered in the right directions on a number of saltwater options.  I would suggest though, that east coast fishing setups  can be related to west coast fishing setups through water temperatures. Might broaden your sales base?? — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Dave, A pretty standard way to connect leaders to floating freshwater fly lines is to needle-nail knot on a butt section of mono first. The section should be around 2/3 the diameter of the end of your fly line and at least the same diameter of the butt of the tapered leader being used. Averagely this is 25# mono that is around .021", but this can vary depending on the diameter of the end or point of the floating line used. I have seen butts used from 6" to 18" but a foot long is pretty average. Sunset "Amnesia" shooting line, Hal Janssen "Leader Control" (clear Amnesia) or Maxima "Ultra Green" are some popular mono around here for fresh water butts. Some will put a small perfection loop on the end of the butt or some will use a 3 or 4 turn blood knot to attach their knotless tapered leader. Your local fly shop should be able to show you how this is done. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

Response:

After hearing lots of negative comments about the loop connectors that come with some lines (Orvis), and noticing that my line tips tend to sink a bit, I’ve decided to experiment and replace the loop connectors with a short length of nail-knotted leader ending in a small loop. The question:  What length, weight, type, even brands of leaders would be best for this?  I’m sure the answer is related to the weight and type of flyline the leader is being attached to — I’d be making this changeover on the following: Orvis wf 5 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating bass line. Thanks for your help! Dave

Response:

… The question:  What length, weight, type, even brands of leaders would be best for this?  …

I use the nail knot/perfection loop setup on my 5wts. I like Orvis Super Strong and find that .019 matches up with my 5wt lines. Most anything in the range of .017 to .021 would work. As for the length, I make it as short as  I possibly can and still tie a perfection loop. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Question:

Man, that does sound like a fun technique! Here, fishy, fishy… john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My kennel manager is on vacation, so lots of work for me, but I have been getting out for an hour or two after dinner. Fishing has been good and I’ve come across something I find interesting. At sunset, there are large numbers of spinners (I’m guessing they’re spinners but I haven’t been able to catch one) flying just over the surface occasionally skimming it. There are also some large Mayfly duns and a small Mayfly duns on the surface. There are a few splashy rises from fish chasing emergers but by far the majority of the "risers" are fish jumping clear out of the water to snag one of the spinners flying over the surface. I’ve seen this on an occasional basis, but some of the fish are doing this from a set feeding station and are jumping for the flies on a regular basis. This includes some decent fish. They totally ignore any of the duns that drift by. The flies are only about a size 16/18, so this jumping doesn’t seem "energy efficient" but me, but I’m no fish. I’ve been able to catch a few of them swinging soft hackles. I’ve also caught a some on a dry or emerger tied on an upper a bloodknot dropper with a weighted nymph below. The weighted nymph serves as an anchor and by holding the rod high, the fly on the dropper can be made to skim the surface, stay above it or bounce on the surface. It’s the closest I can come to imitating the hovering flies. It’s been moderately effective with lots of missed fish jumping at the fly but it’s a fun technique. Willi

Response:

……The flies are only about a size 16/18, so this jumping doesn’t seem "energy efficient" but me, but I’m no fish……

I suspect the energy expenditure is not as great as you might think. Fish are streamlined.  Putting on a short burst of speed which will carry them out of the water probably doesn’t cost them a great deal of effort.  The fact that they do so frequently for what seems a small reward bears suggests it is energy efficient. Wolfgang

Response:

Willi    Try dapping.  Get some unwaxed dental floss (or silk floss, I prefer sky blue, the fish seem to ignore it) and cut about six 8 foot pieces.  Lay ‘em out side-by-side and knot the ends together.  Put a 3 foot tippet on one end and tie the other end to your fly line.  Get the longest pole you have and wait for a little bit of a wind.  The floss works as sail and you can skitter the fly over the surface of just above the surface like a hovering insect.  I’ve only caught two fish with the fly in the air but its a trip (okay, I snagged a couple more).  You just let the fish set the hook on itself.  Your natural reaction is to pull it away, don’t move.  Bigger the fly, the more lines of floss and vice versa.  You can use this technique while hiding in bushes on the bank. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Response:

Willi   Try dapping.  Get some unwaxed dental floss (or silk floss, I prefer sky blue, the fish seem to ignore it) and cut about six 8 foot pieces.  Lay ‘em out side-by-side and knot the ends together.  Put a 3 foot tippet on one end and tie the other end to your fly line.  Get the longest pole you have and wait for a little bit of a wind.  The floss works as sail and you can skitter the fly over the surface of just above the surface like a hovering insect.  I’ve only caught two fish with the fly in the air but its a trip (okay, I snagged a couple more).  You just let the fish set the hook on itself.  Your natural reaction is to pull it away, don’t move.  Bigger the fly, the more lines of floss and vice versa.  You can use this technique while hiding in bushes on the bank.

        this is the weirdest damn place i have ever been.         yfitons wayno

Response:

My kennel manager is on vacation, so lots of work for me, but I have been getting out for an hour or two after dinner. Fishing has been good and I’ve come across something I find interesting. At sunset, there are large numbers of spinners (I’m guessing they’re spinners but I haven’t been able to catch one) flying just over the surface occasionally skimming it. There are also some large Mayfly duns and a small Mayfly duns on the surface. There are a few splashy rises from fish chasing emergers but by far the majority of the "risers" are fish jumping clear out of the water to snag one of the spinners flying over the surface. I’ve seen this on an occasional basis, but some of the fish are doing this from a set feeding station and are jumping for the flies on a regular basis. This includes some decent fish. They totally ignore any of the duns that drift by. The flies are only about a size 16/18, so this jumping doesn’t seem "energy efficient" but me, but I’m no fish. I’ve been able to catch a few of them swinging soft hackles. I’ve also caught a some on a dry or emerger tied on an upper a bloodknot dropper with a weighted nymph below. The weighted nymph serves as an anchor and by holding the rod high, the fly on the dropper can be made to skim the surface, stay above it or bounce on the surface. It’s the closest I can come to imitating the hovering flies. It’s been moderately effective with lots of missed fish jumping at the fly but it’s a fun technique.   Willi

Response:

Question:

Does anyone know where fish spotting gets done around Australia? I know there are some in the Gulf in the prawn season.  And I seem
to recall a magazine article some years ago about tuna spotting
somewhere.  Does anyone know where else people fly for fishing
fleets, what aircraft they use, and what the work prospects are like in that industry?  Is it worth considering as an option for a newby CPL? — – Before you buy.

Response:

Harry may still be some tuna spotting out of Port Lincoln.  Usta use aerocommanders (i think) and one Cessna push pull job (although I think thats gone).   Flights of considerable duration ranging to the far west and into WA. regards Don – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know where fish spotting gets done around Australia? I know there are some in the Gulf in the prawn season.  And I seem to recall a magazine article some years ago about tuna spotting somewhere.  Does anyone know where else people fly for fishing fleets, what aircraft they use, and what the work prospects are like in that industry?  Is it worth considering as an option for a newby CPL? — – Before you buy.

Response:

I have seen Aero Commanders and C337’s at Ceduna SA and pretty sure some at Pt Lincoln during a fuel stop. A local flies from Triabunna (East coast Tas) with a C180 for Mackerel (I think) for the fish farms in Tas. I think he may have spotted for Tuna as well. Maybe he’ll let us know? — Bernie Samms Kingston Beach Tasmania Australia Aero Club of Southern Tasmania   www.acst.com.au Prologic Pty Ltd                           www.prologic.com.au

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Harry may still be some tuna spotting out of Port Lincoln.  Usta use aerocommanders (i think) and one Cessna push pull job (although I think thats gone).   Flights of considerable duration ranging to the far west and into WA. regards Don Does anyone know where fish spotting gets done around Australia? I know there are some in the Gulf in the prawn season.  And I seem to recall a magazine article some years ago about tuna spotting somewhere.  Does anyone know where else people fly for fishing fleets, what aircraft they use, and what the work prospects are like in that industry?  Is it worth considering as an option for a newby CPL? — – Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

You might want to fish Cliff and Wade lake from that float tube. Schuh-fly

Response:

Brian Nelson writes:

(snip good info) With closer inspection, one will find the seams and riffles just like any other freestone, only on a larger, more subtle, scale.

Thank you, Brian.  You have confirmed what I thought they might be like.  I am sure there are raging rivers out there, especially during run-off.  Thanks again. Dave LaCourse

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers, ranging from small to large.   The absence of rapids is obvious.  In fact, in most of the pix, the water looks like it could be a pond or lake. Now, I am sure there is a current, otherwise it wouldn’t be a river <g.  But I get the impression that they are slow moving. Western Montana topography is characterized by what is called the Broad Valley Rockies. These glacially-carved u-shaped valleys are actually fairly easy gradient (not too steep). This results in rivers which typically are not raging torrents as some people may envision the northern Rockies. The Clark Fork (the largest of the rivers) and the Big Hole, with exceptions, are fairly ‘flat’ rivers. They are still freestone and

subsequently do flood and get scary during runoff, but during the low flow times, are great rivers for getting LONG drifts with a fly. The water is moving at 3 to 5 miles an hour but it is deceiving when it is a flat stretch. With closer inspection, one will find the seams and riffles just like any other

freestone, only on a larger, more subtle, scale. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

Any time you want to floattube rivers just remember how much of you is underwater!! * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

The absolute, definitive, conclusive answer is, "It depends."  I have fished all of the rivers that you mentioned (not that it makes me an expert or anything), and I have to say that it depends on where you look and when you look there.  Henry’s Fork is a big open flat down on the Railroad Ranch section, but is whitewater a few miles upstream in Box Canyon.  Similarly, the Big Hole is pretty easy to wade in August, but is a raging torrent in June.  I fished the Stillwater last August, and it was a pretty gentle river at the time, but has a reputation for killing even expert whitewater kayakers during higher water. This is a broad generalization, but seems to be true for most of the rivers that I fish:  The downstream section is big, flat, and slow;  flows through a wide flat valley with a major highway running nearby, produces the biggest fish, and attracts the most fishermen, and is featured regularly in the flyfishing magazines.  The land is mostly privately owned, but there is usually good public access. The upper section is steeper, faster, and has more whitewater.  It is probably on Forest Service land, but it may be tricky finding a public access point. The fish are smaller and easier to catch, and you have to drive on some bad gravel road and possibly do some hiking to get to the river, so not as many fisherman (or photographers) get there. So anyway, if whitewater is what you like, you can find it on most of the rivers if you know where to look. Kevin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers, ranging from small to large.   The absence of rapids is obvious.  In fact, in most of the pix, the water looks like it could be a pond or lake.  Now, I am sure there is a current, otherwise it wouldn’t be a river <g.  But I get the impression that they are slow moving.  You can even float tube some of them.  If you float tubed the Rapid River in Maine, site of this year’s roff Maine Clave, you probably would die!  <g  On much  of the Rapid, a drag free drift will last but a few seconds, but on some of this Montana water, it *looks* like you can get a big long drift.  The difference is even greater when you consider a nymph drift.  Some of the pix show riffles and moderate "fast water", but nothing like I am used to. Now, I don’t mean to start a fight — this ain’t no flame baited post.  I would like to hear from you folks that fish these waters.  I will be at the Western Clave and will probably have my youngest grandson.  I am planning on fishing all of this water, and more if we can fit it in. Dave LaCourse

Response:

I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers, ranging from small to large.  

Dave, The only one I can talk about is the Henry’s Fork a.k.a. the North Fork (of the Snake).  It is a widely varying river.  It is true that there are places with slow moving water, such as on the Railroad Ranch section and much of the water upstream to Last Chance.  Above this, in Box Canyon, the water is considerably faster.  The water below Ashton Dam is not fast, but is very braided with little foam bubbles that are hard to distinguish from a white post on a parachute Adams <g.  In between these two locations you have Upper and Lower Mesa Falls, which are definitely fast!  They also provide an outstanding view, well worth the drive to see them.  There is a scenic loop off the highway between Island Park and Last Chance which will take you to the falls. I know this isn’t a definitive "fast"or "slow" answer, but the nature of the river changes frequently, depending mostly on the elevation gradient.  Much of the Henry’s Fork is wadeable, unlike the South Fork of the Snake which is a big, deep river.  If you come down to Island Park, Take a side trip to Big Springs, which is the headwaters of the Henry’s Fork.  You can drive to where the water bubbles out of the ground.  There are usually some very large trout there that you can throw worms to (no fishing allowed).  If you have any questions I can answer, let me know. Jeff

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Dave,    After the rivers in Montana leave the mountains the gradient is fairly low as they flow east  Many of the rivers in Idaho have cut such deep canyons with sheer walls it scares the hell out of you when you drive over an old wooden bridge and look down. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers, ranging from small to large.   The absence of rapids is obvious.  In fact, in most of the pix, the water looks like it could be a pond or lake.  Now, I am sure there is a current, otherwise it wouldn’t be a river <g.  But I get the impression that they are slow moving.  You can even float tube some of them.  If you float tubed the Rapid River in Maine, site of this year’s roff Maine Clave, you probably would die!  <g  On much  of the Rapid, a drag free drift will last but a few seconds, but on some of this Montana water, it *looks* like you can get a big long drift.  The difference is even greater when you consider a nymph drift.  Some of the pix show riffles and moderate "fast water", but nothing like I am used to. Now, I don’t mean to start a fight — this ain’t no flame baited post.  I would like to hear from you folks that fish these waters.  I will be at the Western Clave and will probably have my youngest grandson.  I am planning on fishing all of this water, and more if we can fit it in. Dave LaCourse

Response:

I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers, ranging from small to large.   The absence of rapids is obvious.  In fact, in most of the pix, the water looks like it could be a pond or lake.  Now, I am sure there is a current, otherwise it wouldn’t be a river <g.  But I get the impression that they are slow moving.  You can even float tube some of them.  If you float tubed the Rapid River in Maine, site of this year’s roff Maine Clave, you probably would die!  <g  On much  of the Rapid, a drag free drift will last but a few seconds, but on some of this Montana water, it *looks* like you can get a big long drift.  The difference is even greater when you consider a nymph drift.  Some of the pix show riffles and moderate "fast water", but nothing like I am used to. Now, I don’t mean to start a fight — this ain’t no flame baited post.  I would like to hear from you folks that fish these waters.  I will be at the Western Clave and will probably have my youngest grandson.  I am planning on fishing all of this water, and more if we can fit it in. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Jeff Shriver writes:

(good descriptions deletes for brev) If you have any questions I can answer, let me know.

Thanks, Jeff.  I am facinated by what I am seeing in these books.  I’ve had them for years and never really looked at them.  Again, thanks.   Dave LaCourse

Response:

I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers, ranging from small to large.

You’ve already got the right response on the Henry’s Fork from other postings.  The Madison River below Quake Lake is known as the "50 mile riffle."   It is very swift and can be difficult to wade.   The Clark Fork is a free stone river, too.  I’d say keep the float tube in the car, except for Quake Lake and Henry’s Lake.

Response:

I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers, ranging from small to large. You’ve already got the right response on the Henry’s Fork from other postings. The Madison River below Quake Lake is known as the "50 mile riffle."   It is very swift and can be difficult to wade.

I was about to post the same. I’ve fished the Madison a few times, always well past any sort of seasonal runoff, and once you get past the campground down to around Rt87 and the old Stagger Ranch section, there’s miles of bubbly stuff that can make drifting a fly a challenge. Trying to think of a section of the Rapid to compare it to…the closest I can think of is the water directly below Lower Dam up to the turn at the Summer House (and not the chub water along the north bank – I mean the roily stuff along the south bank). btw: If you don’t have one of those SOSuspenders Dave, I’d think seriously about investing in the larger one before you try wading the Madison… /daytripper

Response:

I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers …You can even float tube some of them.

Montana rivers are slow moving? Well maybe.   Dangerously fast white water is seldom good trout habitat. But that doesn’t mean drifting or float tubing Montana rivers is is safe for beginners. Nearly every river on your list does have dangerous stretches you need to know about. Log jams and irrigation dams kill more amateur floaters than white water. Note too that drifting a river is often more dangerous at low water that at high water because you have so little room to maneuver when drifting past tangles of cottonwood logs. I see more inexperienced, fool-hardy floaters every year. During the salmon fly hatch on the Big Hole in 1979 close to 20 driftboats where sunk and bashed to shreds at Brown’s Bridge alone. — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0  * http://montana-riverboats.com  */

Response:

writes: Montana rivers are slow moving? Well maybe.   Dangerously fast white water is seldom good trout habitat.

Uh, where did I say it WAS good trout habitat.  From what I have seen in the River Journal books, the water IS slow moving, meadering thru meadows without very many rapids.   But that doesn’t mean drifting or float tubing Montana rivers is is safe for beginners.

Never said it was, Sandy. Never even said I was going to float tube.  If I bring my float tubes, I will used them on ponds/lakes.  What I did say was that the books show float tubers in very placid water.  Three are shown on the Clark Fork in what looks like a pond, not a raging river. Nearly every river on your list does have dangerous stretches you need to know about.

That’s why I have Warren.  <g Log jams and irrigation dams kill more amateur floaters than white water. Note too that drifting a river is often more dangerous at low water that at high water because you have so little room to maneuver when drifting past tangles of cottonwood logs. I see more inexperienced, fool-hardy floaters every year. During the salmon fly hatch on the Big Hole in 1979 close to 20 driftboats where sunk and bashed to shreds at Brown’s Bridge alone.

Dave L.  (not planning on floating anything except a home-tie)      —–  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free Usenet News via the Web  —–      —–  http://newsone.net/ —  Discussions on every subject. —–    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts

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I’ve been scanning through some books I have on the following rivers: Madison, Clark Fork, Henry’s Fork, Big Hole, and others.  I have noticed one thing about them –  they all seem to be slow moving rivers, ranging from small to large.   The absence of rapids is obvious.  In fact, in most of the pix, the water looks like it could be a pond or lake.  Now, I am sure there is a current, otherwise it wouldn’t be a river <g.  But I get the impression that they are slow moving.

Western Montana topography is characterized by what is called the Broad Valley Rockies. These glacially-carved u-shaped valleys are actually fairly easy gradient (not too steep). This results in rivers which typically are not raging torrents as some people may envision the northern Rockies. The Clark Fork (the largest of the rivers) and the Big Hole, with exceptions, are fairly ‘flat’ rivers. They are still freestone and subsequently do flood and get scary during runoff, but during the low flow times, are great rivers for getting LONG drifts with a fly. The water is moving at 3 to 5 miles an hour but it is deceiving when it is a flat stretch. With closer inspection, one will find the seams and riffles just like any other freestone, only on a larger, more subtle, scale. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

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I’ll cook up some wild rice the night before along with a chiffonnade of whatever root vegetables October brings to market in that part of North Carolina and we’ll have a proper feast. A dry reisling would be good but I’m not slavish to the notion of white’s with fish. My latest "find", and all my "finds" are under $15, is the 1996 Syrah from Lonetree winery. Highly recommended and perfect for a crisp fall lunch of fresh trout in the Smokies. http://www.lonetreewine.com/ http://winetoday.com/reviews/0002241.html — Ken Fortenberry

Uhh, Ken how come you only brought Bud when PJ and I accompanied the two of you?  Four’s a crowd?    The next hike up Snowbird better include all the fixin’s.  :) Peter

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peter…you mean you didn’t get any of the coq-au-vin ken whipped up trailside on snowbird?  he assured me he was going to save some for you and pj…the white wine wasn’t that good, so you didn’t miss much there. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll cook up some wild rice the night before along with a chiffonnade of whatever root vegetables October brings to market in that part of North Carolina and we’ll have a proper feast. A dry reisling would be good but I’m not slavish to the notion of white’s with fish. My latest "find", and all my "finds" are under $15, is the 1996 Syrah from Lonetree winery. Highly recommended and perfect for a crisp fall lunch of fresh trout in the Smokies. http://www.lonetreewine.com/ http://winetoday.com/reviews/0002241.html — Ken Fortenberry Uhh, Ken how come you only brought Bud when PJ and I accompanied the two of you?  Four’s a crowd?    The next hike up Snowbird better include all the fixin’s.  :) Peter

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Uhh, Ken how come you only brought Bud when PJ and I accompanied the two of you?  

As you recall, I was trying to "be like Mike" and had the grandmother of all hangovers that day. Bud, and as it happens Wild Turkey and screaming suicidal death rides, are therapeutic in such cases, food definitely is not. — Ken Fortenberry

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Max, Would a fly fishing rod that I can collapse (to fit in or tie to a backpack) just be a waste of time, or would I not notice much difference while casting?

Collapsable rods are a joke for fly fishing.  If you _must_ have compactness, get a 3 or 4 piece fly rod.  But, before you spend the bucks for that, try a trip with your regular 2-pc rod. My backpack has "ski-sleeves" behind the side pockets and I’ve found that I can easily carry an 8 or 9 foot, 2-pc rod with no inconvenience. Has anyone every used these?  Would it be a good backpacking/fly fishing tactic to use a set of these with a set of thin hip waders?

Try a pair of neoprene socks over flyweight waders — and a pair of Tevas.   Any other tips for integrating backpacking and fly fishing into the same outing?

Butter Salt Pepper Lemon juice Aluminum foil My first fly fishing experience was on a backpacking trip to some high Sierra lakes.  Having absolutely no confidence in my ability to catch fish, we packed in a full supply of food. Three days later, we packed out our full supply of food — except for the butter, salt, pepper, lemon juice and aluminum foil.  We’d lucked onto a lake full of brookies on the brink of overpopulation. Absolutely gorged on them. If you expect there’ll still be a fair amount of snow around, add some zip-lock bags, chopped onion & bell peppers and lime juice.  Dice your fish. Mix it with the onion & peppers. Put the mixture in a zip-lock and add plenty of lime juice.  Bury it in a snow bank for several hours.  The French call this raw fish preparation ceviche.  Mmmmm, mmmmm! Wes Peterson

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 The French call this raw fish preparation ceviche.  

What a coincidence ! That’s EXACTLY what the Mexicans call it. — Ken Fortenberry

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 The French call this raw fish preparation ceviche. What a coincidence ! That’s EXACTLY what the Mexicans call it. — Ken Fortenberry

Ken, When I was in Venezuela, the told me it was Peruvian, when I was in Peru, they told me it was Venezuelan. Who knows? Tom — Tom Brown The Signal Group Wake Forest, NC I shall be telling this with a sigh Somewhere ages and ages hence: Two roads diverged in a wood, and I- I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference.             Robert Frost (1874-1963)

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I backpack a lot, and I have recently become addicted to fly fishing.  I would love to integrate the two activities in the same outing.  I have seen the rods that you can collapse.  I have used these types of rods with spinner fishing.  I know that the rod is more important in fly fishing than spinner fishing. Would a fly fishing rod that I can collapse (to fit in or tie to a backpack) just be a waste of time, or would I not notice much difference while casting?

Sage makes some great 5-piece rods, but they’re very expensive. I have a 5-piece 5-weight SP and I love it. Typical of Sage rods, it’s very stiff, but I really couldn’t tell any difference between a 5-piece and a 4-piece. They come with a extra tip, a beautiful, light-weight, 25-inch-long, aluminum rod case, and a lifetime guarantee. One nice thing about these rods is that you can fit them in your carry-on luggage. Sometimes, though, I just take my 2-piece 9-foot Walton Powell and use the PVC rod case as a walking stick! As for wading, if I don’t plan to wade wet I pack my Patagonia breathable waders and lightweight boots. Together, they weigh maybe 3 pounds. Another good investment, if you plan to fish backcountry lakes, would be a lightweight float tube. Bill Kiene recommended the Wood River line to me, and I really like the one I bought — the Summer Breeze model. With a float tube you’re talking about some significant weight, but it’s reasonable for short, easy trips. — something bogus to avoid spam)

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 With Ghee and a light dusting of the flour you can cook up trout meuniere. Hope this helps. — Ken Fortenberry

…ok, ken…fallball…let’s hike the road to nowhere above Noland…you bring the gourmet cookin stuff and i’ll bring…the wine…uh, i’ll also try to catch some trout…looking forward to a streamside meal from chef fortenberry. jeff (in watauga county preparin for an afternoon trout stalkin)

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0] : I backpack a lot, and I have recently become addicted to fly fishing.  I : would love to integrate the two activities in the same outing.  I have seen : the rods that you can collapse.  I have used these types of rods with : spinner fishing.  I know that the rod is more important in fly fishing than : spinner fishing. : Would a fly fishing rod that I can collapse (to fit in or tie to a backpack) : just be a waste of time, or would I not notice much difference while : casting? : I have seen plastic stockings that are designed to fit over a shoe or boot, : and keep the shoes and feet dry.  These were really lightweight, but I’m not : sure if they work. : Has anyone every used these?  Would it be a good backpacking/fly fishing : tactic to use a set of these with a set of thin hip waders? : Any other tips for integrating backpacking and fly fishing into the same : outing? : thanks : Max A lot of rods, perhaps most, from most manufacturers come in 2, 3, and 4 piece versions so you should be able to find a satisfactory rod in your price range. Collapsible rods are junk. The solution I like for wading in the back country is thin hippers with dive booties pulled over them, preferably the kind of booties that dont have zippers. A fanny pack makes a pretty good substitute for a vest. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

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you bring the gourmet cookin stuff and i’ll bring…the wine…uh, i’ll also try to catch some trout…

Four miles up Noland from the "road to nowhere" at the confluence of Mill Creek is the abandoned town of Solola Valley. The park service has put in an outhouse, some picnic tables and a hitchin’ rack for those that use horses. We can hike up to Solola Valley, fish the rest of the morning then repair to one of the picnic tables for a streamside lunch. I’ll cook up some wild rice the night before along with a chiffonnade of whatever root vegetables October brings to market in that part of North Carolina and we’ll have a proper feast. A dry reisling would be good but I’m not slavish to the notion of white’s with fish. My latest "find", and all my "finds" are under $15, is the 1996 Syrah from Lonetree winery. Highly recommended and perfect for a crisp fall lunch of fresh trout in the Smokies. http://www.lonetreewine.com/ http://winetoday.com/reviews/0002241.html — Ken Fortenberry

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I’ll cook up some wild rice the night before along with a chiffonnade of whatever root vegetables October brings to market in that part of North Carolina and we’ll have a proper feast. A dry reisling would be good but I’m not slavish to the notion of white’s with fish. My latest "find", and all my "finds" are under $15, is the 1996 Syrah from Lonetree winery. Highly recommended and perfect for a crisp fall lunch of fresh trout in the Smokies.

        goddammit, forty, if you were a chick, i’d leave home for you. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -http://www.lonetreewine.com/ http://winetoday.com/reviews/0002241.html — Ken Fortenberry

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alright!!!  …reserve a place at the picnic table for me. everyone other than the chef ought to carry at least one bottle of wine for a proper solola valley wine tasting and trout cook…but, if the smokies scotch tasting was a forecast (or backcast) of events, we might need a horse or two to get out of the valley… jeff   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you bring the gourmet cookin stuff and i’ll bring…the wine…uh, i’ll also try to catch some trout… Four miles up Noland from the "road to nowhere" at the confluence of Mill Creek is the abandoned town of Solola Valley. The park service has put in an outhouse, some picnic tables and a hitchin’ rack for those that use horses. We can hike up to Solola Valley, fish the rest of the morning then repair to one of the picnic tables for a streamside lunch. I’ll cook up some wild rice the night before along with a chiffonnade of whatever root vegetables October brings to market in that part of North Carolina and we’ll have a proper feast. A dry reisling would be good but I’m not slavish to the notion of white’s with fish. My latest "find", and all my "finds" are under $15, is the 1996 Syrah from Lonetree winery. Highly recommended and perfect for a crisp fall lunch of fresh trout in the Smokies. http://www.lonetreewine.com/ http://winetoday.com/reviews/0002241.html — Ken Fortenberry

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I backpack a lot, and I have recently become addicted to fly fishing. … Any other tips for integrating backpacking and fly fishing into the same outing? Multi piece rods are the way to go. Collapsibles are junk. Get a good 3 or 4 piece rod appropriate for the streams you’ll fish. I’ve heard recommendations here for St. Croix & Cabela’s in the moderate price range, I’m partial to a 3 piece Winston. Leave the vest at home and consolidate flies, leader(s), tippet spool(s), nail clipper, hook hone and thermometer into two pocket size containers. Get a fishing shirt in a neutral color that has two big front pockets with button down flaps big enough to accomodate the two containers mentioned above. For wading I use Teva sandals with a neoprene sock over a silk liner sock and "miracle pants", those nylon hiking/outdoor pants that dry almost instantly. Go to the Indian food store and get a jar of Ghee. It’s clarified butter at a fraction of the price of the backpacker variety. Put some in a small unbreakable container and put that and a bit of flour in with your cook kit. With Ghee and a light dusting of the flour you can cook up trout meuniere.

Agree entirely with the additional suggestions of using a fanny pack.  Not the expensive "fly-fishing" fanny packs that Sage/Simms/et al sell, just some generic one.  And that it’s easy enough to make your own Ghee.  The stuff never spoils so you never have to worry about refrigeration or the heat.  Add a couple spices to your flour ahead of time and you’re good to go. Speaking of which…      - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the  initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

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[snip] I’ve heard recommendations here for St. Croix & Cabela’s in the moderate price range, I’m partial to a 3 piece Winston.

Forty, your predilection for lousy beer is well countered by your taste for fine rods. /daytripper ;^)

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‘grats guys…jeez wine in the apps…. guess ya’ll be geetin sohhffttt… me? ‘morrow…hungover…fishin’ the most beautifil water in the world with pals (wish you were heh) and enjoying this fine art to the fullest… waldo… on the sun spine of g’fatha alright!!!  …reserve a place at the picnic table for me. everyone other than the chef ought to carry at least one bottle of wine for a proper solola valley wine tasting and trout cook…but, if the smokies scotch tasting was a forecast (or backcast) of events, we might need a horse or two to get out of the valley… I don’t have a horse but I expect I could waddle my fat butt up there and *maybe* back<g. Sounds like a great picnic plan. — Charlie…

– Ezflyfish.com                 Blue Ridge Book Gallery Quality Gear & Service        Used & Out-of-Print Books http://www.ezflyfish.com      http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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walt…hah, no doubt marie must be off the mountain visiting somewhere…it’s past one in the morning, yer well-oiled, acting independent and "manlike",and bangin away on the computer. damn, i’m envious. …if you come along in october, you can use the most excellent wine we’ll be bringin as a chaser for yer wine alternatives – you know, that stuff bottled down in the hollars in mason ("Masson"??) jars, dripped fresh from the coils – actually, you and i probably could use a dip in the "couth" tank from time to time <G. jeff (i’ll not whine before it’s time) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ‘grats guys…jeez wine in the apps…. guess ya’ll be geetin sohhffttt… me? ‘morrow…hungover…fishin’ the most beautifil water in the world with pals (wish you were heh) and enjoying this fine art to the fullest… waldo… on the sun spine of g’fatha alright!!!  …reserve a place at the picnic table for me. everyone other than the chef ought to carry at least one bottle of wine for a proper solola valley wine tasting and trout cook…but, if the smokies scotch tasting was a forecast (or backcast) of events, we might need a horse or two to get out of the valley… I don’t have a horse but I expect I could waddle my fat butt up there and *maybe* back<g. Sounds like a great picnic plan. — Charlie… — Ezflyfish.com                 Blue Ridge Book Gallery Quality Gear & Service        Used & Out-of-Print Books http://www.ezflyfish.com      http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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        goddammit, forty, if you were a chick, i’d leave home for you. wayno

ROTFLMAO, Wayno Mark Faulkner

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Would a fly fishing rod that I can collapse (to fit in or tie to a backpack) just be a waste of time, or would I not notice much difference while casting?

There are a LOT of multi-piece flyrods that pack down to very managable sizes.  I’ve got a 5pc. Scott rod that can fit INSIDE my daypack and it cost about $200 on clearance.  You don’t need the most expensive rod, just a good tool for the task. Alpine trout do tend to be greedier and so the massive fly selection is not necessary.  Adames, Humpies, mosquitos, Coachmens, Terrestrials (especially ants) keep me in fish all day.  A few nymphs never hurt. I have seen plastic stockings that are designed to fit over a shoe or boot, and keep the shoes and feet dry.  These were really lightweight, but I’m not sure if they work. Has anyone every used these?  Would it be a good backpacking/fly fishing tactic to use a set of these with a set of thin hip waders?

Thin waders, then the bootie, then your Tevas or ratty converse tennies.  If like in the Eastern Sierra, you’re fishing small streams to spooky trout, I spend most of the time on my knees anyway. Any other tips for integrating backpacking and fly fishing into the same outing?

It’s not really that much more stuff to bring.  I started lugging less camera gear and my load lightened immensely. Good Luck Bob

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It’s not really that much more stuff to bring.  I started lugging less camera gear and my load lightened immensely.

Amen about the camera gear. Now I just take disposable cameras. One panoramic and one a normal field-of-view camera. If I’m rafting or doing risky wading I’ll take a waterproof disposable. Actually, you can soak a non-waterproof disposable and the exposed shots will develop fine, as long as the film is dried out before processing. Forget about the rest of the roll, though. The quality of the photos is fine, especially if you’re just going to scan them into a relatively low-resolution digital format. — something bogus to avoid spam)

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For wading I use Teva sandals with a neoprene sock over a silk liner sock and "miracle pants", those nylon hiking/outdoor pants that dry almost instantly.

That’s almost exactly what I do.. although the cold Sierra lakes that I backpack to make it tough to stay in too long.. Go to the Indian food store and get a jar of Ghee. It’s clarified butter at a fraction of the price of the backpacker variety.

That’s EXACTLY what I do.. but, of course, I also pack in a couple of lemons and my own seasoning too.  Worth the weight.. — -Mark/Particle Salad Particle Salad/Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

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Backpacking is the ONLY way to fly!  :) I have a 4-piece rod that I take apart and simply tie to one of the side metal frame pieces of my external frame pack.  I’ve never had trouble, but I wouldn’t take my best rod.. I have a Fenwick spin/fly rod that I take on trips like these so I can reach farther out in the lake (I haven’t packed a float tube yet, though have been considering it lately). My advice.. do it, you won’t regret it! -Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I backpack a lot, and I have recently become addicted to fly fishing.  I would love to integrate the two activities in the same outing.  I have seen the rods that you can collapse.  I have used these types of rods with spinner fishing.  I know that the rod is more important in fly fishing than spinner fishing. Would a fly fishing rod that I can collapse (to fit in or tie to a backpack) just be a waste of time, or would I not notice much difference while casting? I have seen plastic stockings that are designed to fit over a shoe or boot, and keep the shoes and feet dry.  These were really lightweight, but I’m not sure if they work. Has anyone every used these?  Would it be a good backpacking/fly fishing tactic to use a set of these with a set of thin hip waders? Any other tips for integrating backpacking and fly fishing into the same outing? thanks Max

– -Mark/Particle Salad Particle Salad/Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

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<snip Hi Max; Multiple piece rods are fairly popular for backpacking but I’ve always found them somewhat unsatisfactory.  The more pieces you have, the more likely it is that the thing will come apart while casting.  Multiple joints also affect the action of the rod.  I have often carried a standard two piece rod while backpacking and had very little trouble with it.  A 4 1/2 ft. rod case will sometimes catch on low branches or other obstructions but in my experience it has not happened often enough to be considered a major problem. On short trips where weight was not a major consideration I have carried light weight waders and boots.  While this is a very comfortable way to fish I don’t consider the comfort worth the extra weight or space on longer or more arduous trips.  In such cases I bring a pair of Rock Socks or other light weight footwear and wade wet, but I wade wet a lot anyway.  I have found that I’m comfortable in colder water than most of the people I have fished with, so you’ll have to judge for yourself how viable this option is for you. Tight Lines!

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I backpack a lot, and I have recently become addicted to fly fishing. … Any other tips for integrating backpacking and fly fishing into the same outing?

Multi piece rods are the way to go. Collapsibles are junk. Get a good 3 or 4 piece rod appropriate for the streams you’ll fish. I’ve heard recommendations here for St. Croix & Cabela’s in the moderate price range, I’m partial to a 3 piece Winston. Leave the vest at home and consolidate flies, leader(s), tippet spool(s), nail clipper, hook hone and thermometer into two pocket size containers. Get a fishing shirt in a neutral color that has two big front pockets with button down flaps big enough to accomodate the two containers mentioned above. For wading I use Teva sandals with a neoprene sock over a silk liner sock and "miracle pants", those nylon hiking/outdoor pants that dry almost instantly. Go to the Indian food store and get a jar of Ghee. It’s clarified butter at a fraction of the price of the backpacker variety. Put some in a small unbreakable container and put that and a bit of flour in with your cook kit. With Ghee and a light dusting of the flour you can cook up trout meuniere. Hope this helps. — Ken Fortenberry

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I backpack a lot, and I have recently become addicted to fly fishing.  I would love to integrate the two activities in the same outing.  I have seen the rods that you can collapse.  I have used these types of rods with spinner fishing.  I know that the rod is more important in fly fishing than spinner fishing. Would a fly fishing rod that I can collapse (to fit in or tie to a backpack) just be a waste of time, or would I not notice much difference while casting? I have seen plastic stockings that are designed to fit over a shoe or boot, and keep the shoes and feet dry.  These were really lightweight, but I’m not sure if they work. Has anyone every used these?  Would it be a good backpacking/fly fishing tactic to use a set of these with a set of thin hip waders? Any other tips for integrating backpacking and fly fishing into the same outing? thanks Max

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Generally, the ferrule of the rod is stiffer so you may notice the rod has a stiffer action (based on 3 or 4 pieces).  One thing I’ve learned from experience (and I know I will have a lot of opposition here) is that the old fiberglass rods are much more durable than the new graphite rods.  Reason being if your graphite rod drops and hits a rock, you can shatter it and not know it until you take a cast and the rod breaks in half!  Fiberglass doesn’t have this problem.  As an FYI, I’ve also performed the sinful task of attaching a spinning real to the fly rod – works really well if you want options on a trip! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I backpack a lot, and I have recently become addicted to fly fishing.  I would love to integrate the two activities in the same outing.  I have seen the rods that you can collapse.  I have used these types of rods with spinner fishing.  I know that the rod is more important in fly fishing than spinner fishing. Would a fly fishing rod that I can collapse (to fit in or tie to a backpack) just be a waste of time, or would I not notice much difference while casting? I have seen plastic stockings that are designed to fit over a shoe or boot, and keep the shoes and feet dry.  These were really lightweight, but I’m not sure if they work. Has anyone every used these?  Would it be a good backpacking/fly fishing tactic to use a set of these with a set of thin hip waders? Any other tips for integrating backpacking and fly fishing into the same outing? thanks Max

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Wayne Knight Geneva IL You’re right Wayne but Walt grew up in Florida. Somewhere in the swamps I think.

mango infested islands loaded with big tusked hogs and big, slow moving turtles.  That’s why it takes him so long to do anything and is why women love him. ; ) —

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[some deleted] But the attitude by these anglers was" I caught and released that fish on a real artificial fly (probably a chartreuse egg pattern with attractant sprayed on it ) with a  2 lb tippet. So I must be a better sportsmen then the guy in the lawn chair." This is nothing but alot of Crap in my book.

I sense and share your frustration Mike.  Hang tough and keep up the good work. TimW

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The driving force behind  this definition was to eliminate the use of premolded scented baits (berkely power eggs) that were LEGALLY artificial until January of this year.

That is definitely a point we have to keep in mind. The message that started this thread made all sorts of dire pronouncements that any artificial material would be prohibited in fishing. As several people pointed out, that pretty much eliminates steel hooks, synthetic yarn, nylon monofilament leaders and much of what we use to fish with. It’s also the exact opposite of what was really being proposed. Let’s leave off the alarmist garbage and deal with the real issues. The worm fisherman is no more or less holy than we of the exalted fly genre. Different people enjoy different types of fishing and different waters require different regulations. The real question is whether Power Eggs(tm) and the like constitute some sort of unfair advantage in certain waters or are conducive to higher mortality through deep hooking. That’s presumably why we pay big bucks to marine biologists to set these policies. — |     Liberty Communications — Spreading the Word     | |                Michael P. Thompson                   |

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snip The real question is whether Power Eggs(tm) and the like constitute some sort of unfair advantage in certain waters or are conducive to higher mortality through deep hooking. That’s presumably why we pay big bucks to marine biologists to set these policies.

snip I’m not sure I understand the concept of "unfair advantage" when it comes to fishing.  The first thing that came to mind was some fly fishermen being upset about bait working better (I know that’s not what you meant Michael). Ross Wilson

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Mike, I think there’s no doubt that a 3-inch Power Tube is an "artificial" under the new regulations. If it were less than 1.5 inches it would not be an artificial. After thinking more about your posts, however, I guess I’ve come around to your view that the new regs won’t cover a variety of possible situations, especially ones where there is scented material made part of a lure or fly over 1.5 inches long. Best wishes.  Jeff

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Let’s leave off the alarmist garbage and deal with the real issues. The worm fisherman is no more or less holy than we of the exalted fly genre. Different people enjoy different types of fishing and different waters require different regulations.

Except the worm fishermen doesn’t lobby, pressure, or persuade those that we pay the big bucks to exclude the flyfishermen from their preferred methods of enjoyment. respectfully, Mike Miller

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if it weren’t for the greedy flyfishing industry, this would not even be an issue..IMHO..protectionism… TimW

Greed……no doubt, but I suspect more than just the Fly – fishing industry regards, Mike

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Ok Jeff, so answer this question please, Can you or can you not fish with a 3" BERKLEY POWER TUBE? regards, Mike

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if it weren’t for the greedy flyfishing industry, this would not even be an issue..IMHO..protectionism… TimW Greed……no doubt, but I suspect more than just the Fly – fishing industry

Why would any other group *care* about a flyfishing only definition ? TimW

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if it weren’t for the greedy flyfishing industry, this would not even be an issue..IMHO..protectionism… TimW Greed……no doubt, but I suspect more than just the Fly – fishing industry Why would any other group *care* about a flyfishing only definition ? TimW

The driving force behind  this definition was to eliminate the use of premolded scented baits (berkely power eggs) that were LEGALLY artificial until January of this year. Spinney Mountain Res. was the focus of much of the debate.  As you probably know Spinney is managed as "Gold Medal" Water with artificial  fly & lure only tackle restrictions and a one fish over 20" bag limit and the canyon  recently had Gold Medal regulations extended to the dam. My reference to purists, elitists, attitudes comes from experience fishing these waters and a witness to the debates over the issue at the commission meetings. On opening day 1995 at Spinney, there was a gentlemen fishing with power eggs. He had brought along the lawn chair and 4 young children. This guy caught about 6 trout that day on his chartreuse colored power eggs allowing each of the kids an opportunity to bring one in. He kept one and as far as I could tell no  harm came to the fish he released. But this guy came under heavy and constant critizism from the crowd (who were primarily fishless) because in their *holier than thou minds* he was a scondrel for using such a bait (although technically he was not breaking any laws.) Now, I will not dispute the fact that PASSIVELY fishing such a bait will probably kill alot of fish that by law have to be released. But at Spinney I have witnessed many a fine fish played to exhaustion, kept out of the water for extreme periods of time, (for the picture ceremony)  dropped on the rocks a couple of times, drug along the bank in the sand, and kicked back into the water because it was only 19 7/8" long. But the attitude by these anglers was" I caught and released that fish on a real artificial fly (probably a chartreuse egg pattern with attractant sprayed on it ) with a  2 lb tippet. So I must be a better sportsmen then the guy in the lawn chair." This is nothing but alot of Crap in my book. regards, Mike Miller

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I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this. The intent of the Colorado’s definition of what constitutes an *artificial* fly or lure was simply to eliminate scented baits, such as power baits & eggs.  Unfortunately the wording is very confusing and I think the C.D.O.W. doesn’t totallly understand what they have said. It will probably be un – enforceable except for the obvious infractions.

I was surprised (not pleasantly) to notice that Mike Miller was the only one of the many who commented on this who seemed to have actually read the regulation. Most others assumed that what Paul had "just heard" was the gospel truth, then proceeded to denigrate the DOW for being so asinine. It is pretty obvious that very few contemporary fishing flies could be tied without using artificial or synthetic materials. Even rayon thread would be prohibited by such a regulation. Besides, it would be virtually unenforceable and bad for public relations. To prohibit artificial material from an artificial lure such as a fly is counter to the whole idea behind bait regulations. They generally seek to limit the use of live bait and artificial substances which simulate live bait (such as power bait, etc.). It would not make sense for anyone to prohibit the use of artificial materials in an artificial lure. People would have to start carving their bass plugs out of wood again. My point is, on the face of it, this "report" of what Paul had "heard" is not credible and needs to be checked out before we go griping about what stupidity the DOW is currently engaged in. — |     Liberty Communications — Spreading the Word     | |                Michael P. Thompson                   |

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J Let’s not forget that what they are *trying* to do is to find a J definition that excludes powerbait and its related "scented lure" J products. A good point.  Trying is the operative word here and sloppy legislation does not a good bill make.  Having lived in Denver for two years, I applaud setting waters aside for bait (power bait, although synthetic, is still bait IMHO) and artificial approaches. Heck, I _enjoy_ bait fishing once or twice a year for stockies. As a lifelong redneck I have drown my share of worms and crickets and defend anyone’s right to do so. It is up to the folks at wildlife to make sure that catch and keep does not endanger wild fish. Well, there’s my opinion anyway. But thanks for your post!      Trey Monroe

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For example, I’ve fallen in love with the Stimulator this year… it has brought some very large fish to shore.  Why?  Is it a caddis imitation or a stone fly imitation?  I say neither… it’s probably that orange piece in the front of the fly that looks like a Salmon Egg to the fish.  A Stimulator doesn’t closely imitate anything in the water, but sure catches some large fish.

A salmon egg floating on the surface being eaten by what? The Stimulator has the classic profile of both fluttering caddis and stones. Further, how does your egg theory explain the success of the same fly with olive, peacock, and tan thorax regions?

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: A salmon egg floating on the surface being eaten by what? The Stimulator : has the classic profile of both fluttering caddis and stones. Further, : how does your egg theory explain the success of the same fly with olive, : peacock, and tan thorax regions? For me, they haven’t been nearly as effective as the orange color.  And I’m not certain the color triggers anything near a salmon egg… perhaps it looks like a big eye.  My point is that there are better imitations of the things you mention, but the Stimmy works well, often better. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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if it weren’t for the greedy flyfishing industry, this would not even be an issue..IMHO..protectionism… TimW

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Someone who has the new regulations, please read them and tell me if a 1.6 inch artificial Power Worm is artificial under the new regulation. My reading suggests that they are to be considered "artificial"

This issue arose at Spinney Mountain on opening day 1996, several individuals were using 3" Berkley Power Tubes. They looked identical  to other tube jigs (i.e. gitizits). The State Parks law enforcement officer  explained to me that according to his instructions they were lega, stating they were over 1 1/2". Also a DOW officer checked these fishermen and did not issue a citation or stop them from being used.   However, I contacted the DOW on this issue and at least one official said "no way, they cannot be used and that all  power bait is illegal. " As I stated in a previous post, except for obvious infractions (power eggs)  this law will be un-enforcable. Even the DOW is confused. regards, Mike Miller

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I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

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I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

No Colorado didn’t. I think I’ve heard that F&W is discussing not allowing power bait and other non-natural baits to be fished in the artificals only waters.

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I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

Know any suppliers of barbless *bone* hooks?? — The views expressed are my own and does not represent those of my employer.

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: I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not : use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, : it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this. Interesting, and really raises some issues.  For example, I’ve fallen in love with the Stimulator this year… it has brought some very large fish to shore.  Why?  Is it a caddis imitation or a stone fly imitation?  I say neither… it’s probably that orange piece in the front of the fly that looks like a Salmon Egg to the fish.  A Stimulator doesn’t closely imitate anything in the water, but sure catches some large fish. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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The intent of the Colorado’s definition of what constitutes an *artificial* fly or lure was simply to eliminate scented baits, such as  power baits & eggs.  Unfortunately the wording is very confusing and I think the C.D.O.W. doesn’t totallly understand what they have said. It will probably be un – enforceable except for the obvious infractions. It says something like anything less than 1 1/2 inches long cannot be made out of *plastic* or scented material. The question that has come up is what if it is over  1 1/2 inches long  (Berkley Power Tubes for example) or if  it is under 1 1/2inches does this exclude *foam* or even plastic tube jigs (unscented)? And can you add scent to a fly or lure less than 1 1/2 "? regards, Mike Miller – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

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(PaulS41846) writes: I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

Does that mean the hook has to be made from a thorn? Steel was synthetic the last time I looked. Don Burns

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(PaulS41846) writes: I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this.

Oh Yeah! Another reason to simply quit ffing and take up something else (billiards comes immediately to mind….) With all the problems facing the resource, and the sport in general, now the gov is picking at minutea (sp?). The saddest part is that an early and powerful proponent of synth materials for flies, John Betts, lives in Denver. If there is some percieved ecological threat with these materials why didn’t they look at those GD’d foam bobbers (strike indicators) that litter our streams too! Does that mean the hook has to be made from a thorn? Steel was synthetic the last time I looked.

Good Point <G!  Sounds like our politicians are doing their best to screw everything up as usual.  Like with the Rimm Report! </chaz (not Sue)

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P I just heard that the state of Colorado has decided that flies should not P use any artificial (synthetic) materials. If it uses such things as foam, P it is a bait and not a fly. Any comments about this. Hmm, if it isn’t or hasn’t been alive and uses only sight attraction, not smell to attract fish, and you can cast it with a fly rod, that’s close enough to a fly for me. Besides, if this passes, will enforcement be forced to looking through people’s fly boxes to make sure that there is no crystal flash? What about nylon thread, rayon floss, or heavens to gimbles, micro fibbets tailing! Sounds like missplaced emphasis IMHO.      Trey Monroe

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Power Bait on the frying pan river…? Lucky Lou’s…? Getcha thumped…that’s fer sure… In practice, there is a VERY fine line (no pun intended) between a Glo-Bug and a Lucky Lou.  Or a Pittendrigh foam after a little fish slime and power bait.  Or a san Juan worm and a red wriggler.  It’s all in our heads man, that one is somehow better then the other…isn’t it ?   What is the difference between a Kastmaster and a Zonker ? TimW (In case you think that I miss the point….) I have retrieved slimy GloBugs from the gills and gullets of bleeding trout as deeply as shore chucked pautzkees. I have had wooly worms and buggers kill fish.  I have sent small trout flying into the bushes on a #14 adams on an ‘overzealous strike’.  Fish die man no matter WHAT you hook ‘em on…

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Question:

I plan to be in Puerto Rico in June. Does anyone know of any flyfishing? Are there any areas with bonefish? Is June a reasonable time? Thanks in advance. Herb

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I will be there in October, but have no information. Can you foward anything you find out to me by e-mail? Thanks alot.

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Question:

writes: I am an advanced beginner fresh and saltwater flyfisherman. I will be in Miami in late May and was thinking of going tarpon fishing. However, as I can’t do a double-haul cast ….

Steve, You should practice the double haul before going. It’s not that hard. If you can do a single haul (which comes naturally after a couple of years of freshwater flyfishing), you can master the double haul. Despite the very complicated way that Mel K. and others try to explain the double haul, it really just comes down to this … shoot line on your back cast. It just takes a little up-down tug (about 6 inches) immediately after you lift the line from the water … move the line (tug) hand back with the rod hand … and give a forward tug (haul) after the line shoots on the back cast. YOU CAN DO IT. See Lefty Kreh’s or Ed Jaworowoski’s books on casting — they are the best. The doublke haul is essential for successful saltwater casting (especially into the wind). Hope this helps. Cordially, Rochester, NY  

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I am an advanced beginner fresh and saltwater flyfisherman. I will be in Miami in late May and was thinking of going tarpon fishing. However, as I can’t do a double-haul cast (yet) and am not that accurate, would I be wasting my time? I don’t want to just get yelled at by a frustrated guide. Also I called sevral guides who were recommended. They were all booked up. Anyone know someone who will be patient with a beginner in South Florida? The date I am looking for is Sunday May 21st. Steven Locke, M.D. Beth Israel Hospital/Harvard Medical School 617-667-2946 voice 617-527-3343 fax

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A good guide will not yell at you, although you should remember that they put more effort into helping you catch fish than you put into it. I’m sure that it’s very frustrating for them to pole you all over the flat to give you the best opportunity for presentation and then have the cast bobbled or one of a hundred other things go wrong. Most of the better guides are booked years in advance, you would be better off if you could contact them for any available date and then make your schedule conform. Another way to work it is to find a good guide and see if he has any time available outside of the peak period . Book this time and if you work well together you can move into the primo months as time becomes available. Learn the double haul, It’s very important. For sure try tarpon fishing with a fly rod,  there are no wasted days on the flats FISH MORE KEEP LESS Roccus

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Question:

Would the guy that posted about the Saltwater flyfishing trip for rockfish in the kelp beds off of Santa Cruz please followup with a valid email address?  I tried responding via email but it bounced.  I’m interested in the Livermore Flyfishers group that was mentioned. — John Fereira Pleasanton, CA

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That’s a numeral one after my name. Kent McCammon Lightwave Systems Engineer Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory Just another crash dummy on the information superhighway

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