Question:

I’m a little confused by how a braided loop failure could cause the loss of a fly line, unless you use a loop-to-loop connection between your line and backing.

Actually, I use them there too. I can see if you didn’t fasten it on good it could get pushed off by a guide as the line went into the backing. I use thread and Aquaseal to fasten the end of the connector on instead of the shrink tubing partly for that reason. — Charlie…

Response:

Hello Dave, A pretty standard way to connect leaders to floating freshwater fly lines is to needle-nail knot on a butt section of mono first. The section should be around 2/3 the diameter of the end of your fly line and at least the same diameter of the butt of the tapered leader being used. Averagely this is 25# mono that is around .021", but this can vary depending on the diameter of the end or point of the floating line used. I have seen butts used from 6" to 18" but a foot long is pretty average. Sunset "Amnesia" shooting line, Hal Janssen "Leader Control" (clear Amnesia) or Maxima "Ultra Green" are some popular mono around here for fresh water butts. Some will put a small perfection loop on the end of the butt or some will use a 3 or 4 turn blood knot to attach their knotless tapered leader. Your local fly shop should be able to show you how this is done. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After hearing lots of negative comments about the loop connectors that come with some lines (Orvis), and noticing that my line tips tend to sink a bit, I’ve decided to experiment and replace the loop connectors with a short length of nail-knotted leader ending in a small loop. The question:  What length, weight, type, even brands of leaders would be best for this?  I’m sure the answer is related to the weight and type of flyline the leader is being attached to — I’d be making this changeover on the following: Orvis wf 5 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating bass line. Thanks for your help! Dave

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After hearing lots of negative comments about the loop connectors that come with some lines (Orvis), and noticing that my line tips tend to sink a bit, I’ve decided to experiment and replace the loop connectors with a short length of nail-knotted leader ending in a small loop. The question:  What length, weight, type, even brands of leaders would be best for this?  I’m sure the answer is related to the weight and type of flyline the leader is being attached to — I’d be making this changeover on the following: Orvis wf 5 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating bass line. Thanks for your help! Dave I use a nail knot to tie my leader directly to the fly line. I hate the braided loops. Particularly after after one failed and I lost a fly line and a striper size XXL. Paul

I’m a little confused by how a braided loop failure could cause the loss of a fly line, unless you use a loop-to-loop connection between your line and backing. — Scott Reverse first field of address to reply

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] I use a nail knot to tie my leader directly to the fly line. I hate the braided loops. Particularly after after one failed and I lost a fly line and a striper size XXL. Paul I’m a little confused by how a braided loop failure could cause the loss of a fly line, unless you use a loop-to-loop connection between your line and backing.

It was a shooting head to running line. The fish decided it was too close to the boat. It took off and on the way throught the guides the shrink tube that keeps the braid from fraying must have hit a guide that released the tension on the braid and bye bye fish and shooting head. I went home and cut off all the braided loops from all my lines and tied nail knots on all leader and backing to fly line connections. Haven’t had a problem in the 9 years since I did that. Paul

Response:

I did exactly that . . . I got rid of the braided connectors and went to the mono nail knot/perfection loop. Mine is about 4 inches in length as attached. I used the backend of a leader that I commonly use. I figured it should be similar to the leader material in weight and make up, so I used one! At this point, I wont go back to the braided connectors. I did it to the following: Orvis Wonderline WF 5wt SA Mastery Series GPX WF 5wt I am also planning on using this method on my 7wt when I get the rod built!! Wayne says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After hearing lots of negative comments about the loop connectors that come with some lines (Orvis), and noticing that my line tips tend to sink a bit, I’ve decided to experiment and replace the loop connectors with a short length of nail-knotted leader ending in a small loop. The question:  What length, weight, type, even brands of leaders would be best for this?  I’m sure the answer is related to the weight and type of flyline the leader is being attached to — I’d be making this changeover on the following: Orvis wf 5 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating bass line. Thanks for your help! Dave

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After hearing lots of negative comments about the loop connectors that come with some lines (Orvis), and noticing that my line tips tend to sink a bit, I’ve decided to experiment and replace the loop connectors with a short length of nail-knotted leader ending in a small loop. The question:  What length, weight, type, even brands of leaders would be best for this?  I’m sure the answer is related to the weight and type of flyline the leader is being attached to — I’d be making this changeover on the following: Orvis wf 5 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating bass line. Thanks for your help! Dave

I use a nail knot to tie my leader directly to the fly line. I hate the braided loops. Particularly after after one failed and I lost a fly line and a striper size XXL. Paul

Response:

My floating lines are set up with braided loops and nail knotted mono/perfection loops on the sinking ones.  Braided loops can trap air and hold the tip of a sinking line up.  I once used one on a Type 5 sinktip only to see the belly two foot down and the tip on the surface.  Since then all sinking lines have been mono only.  As Ken mentioned, they should be as short as practical and roughly  two thirds the thickness of the tip or about mid way in thickness between the leader butt and line tip. All braided loops will fail if they are not installed properly.  The end of the floating fly line should be sealed with glue to prevent the ingress of water that would cause the tip to sink.  The tip of the line should be inserted fully into the sleeve and as far as possible into the doubled over section of the loop.  A nail knot should be tied on the opposite end of the sleeve, securing it to the line.  The heat shrink tubing should be placed over the knot and the end of the sleeve to prevent fraying as well as smoothing its passage through the guides.  Glue shouldn’t be used on the sleeve as it can make it brittle and prone to breakage.  Braided loops should be periodically checked for fraying. Both loop system can fail, even when well installed.  Enough pressure can break a braided loop, pull a nail knot off the line, or break a perfection loop.  The trick is to make sure that the transition loop isn’t the weakest link.  A properly installed braided loop provide superior turnover due to their inherent stiffness when properly installed and are especially suited to use with heavy sinking leaders like Airflo Polyleaders.  Their tendency to float helps keep the tips of floating lines up plus they can also serve as strike indicators if you use a bright coloured heat shrink tube. HTH Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Bill, After a phone conversation with your staff about 3 weeks ago, I went to the nail knot/surgeon’s or perfection loop set-up for all my saltwater rigs.  I also shortened my Orvis 38 ft. shooting head to 30 ft. per their suggestion and casting improved tremendously.  I kept trying to buy some shooting heads from those guys and they insisted I check locally to see what was being used successfully.  I have to say they ended up getting me steered in the right directions on a number of saltwater options.  I would suggest though, that east coast fishing setups  can be related to west coast fishing setups through water temperatures. Might broaden your sales base?? — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Dave, A pretty standard way to connect leaders to floating freshwater fly lines is to needle-nail knot on a butt section of mono first. The section should be around 2/3 the diameter of the end of your fly line and at least the same diameter of the butt of the tapered leader being used. Averagely this is 25# mono that is around .021", but this can vary depending on the diameter of the end or point of the floating line used. I have seen butts used from 6" to 18" but a foot long is pretty average. Sunset "Amnesia" shooting line, Hal Janssen "Leader Control" (clear Amnesia) or Maxima "Ultra Green" are some popular mono around here for fresh water butts. Some will put a small perfection loop on the end of the butt or some will use a 3 or 4 turn blood knot to attach their knotless tapered leader. Your local fly shop should be able to show you how this is done. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

Response:

After hearing lots of negative comments about the loop connectors that come with some lines (Orvis), and noticing that my line tips tend to sink a bit, I’ve decided to experiment and replace the loop connectors with a short length of nail-knotted leader ending in a small loop. The question:  What length, weight, type, even brands of leaders would be best for this?  I’m sure the answer is related to the weight and type of flyline the leader is being attached to — I’d be making this changeover on the following: Orvis wf 5 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating trout line Wonderline wf 6 wt floating bass line. Thanks for your help! Dave

Response:

… The question:  What length, weight, type, even brands of leaders would be best for this?  …

I use the nail knot/perfection loop setup on my 5wts. I like Orvis Super Strong and find that .019 matches up with my 5wt lines. Most anything in the range of .017 to .021 would work. As for the length, I make it as short as  I possibly can and still tie a perfection loop. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph.   well, there it is fellers.  for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one)

O-O-OH…I thought he got you and wayno confused and then misspelled "vice"….well, I guess that’s what I get for taking as confusion what could be easier explained by simple stupidity… TC, R

Response:

just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author…

…and don’t forget the "copywrite 2001."  You wouldn’t want a bunch of ambulance chasin’ copyright lawyers hounding you into the afterlife. Kevin

Response:

Jeffie writes: just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author…

Well, hell……  I thought your headstone should read: "It weren’t the fried eggs that done killed me!"

Response:

no…but if you’d seen me runnin out of santeetlah creek lookin suitable-for-wipin tree leaves whilst tryin to get disentangled from vest, waders, clothing and all the time havin to maintain tight sphincter control…well, it sure did look and feel like a death dance…and, true, it tweren’t my fried eggs, twas that bvd laplac mornin cookin what nearly done me in. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeffie writes: just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author… Well, hell……  I thought your headstone should read: "It weren’t the fried eggs that done killed me!"

Response:

Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph.

Jeff, are you leading a double life? Op

Response:

Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph. Jeff, are you leading a double life? Op

You must stop these jealousy tandrums Opie boy.  You sexuality will soon reveal itself. George Gehrke "Dr. of Confusion"

Response:

you guys are slayin’ me…. thankee! –waldo <bseg’s – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph. well, there it is fellers.  for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one) Jeff:  I’m going to keep that quote to post under the picture of the fly you submitted to the 2002 fly swap, OK? –Stan

– Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

Response:

gawdam stan…that’s cold. have you no pity? …only if you include mike’s verse as well… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph. well, there it is fellers.  for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one) Jeff:  I’m going to keep that quote to post under the picture of the fly you submitted to the 2002 fly swap, OK? –Stan

Response:

just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author… jeff

OK. purely out of pity! Jeff tried and tried, before he died, to tie up lots of lovely flies, He got his wish, caught lots of fish, and now happy here he lies. TL MC

Response:

just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author…

He’s probably thinking of the ones you gave him when the two of you were fly fishing the Pyrenees after you ran the bulls that time. — Charlie…

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grin-ing out loud funny…. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He’s probably thinking of the ones you gave him when the two of you were fly fishing the Pyrenees after you ran the bulls that time. — Charlie…

Response:

OK. purely out of pity! Jeff tried and tried, before he died, to tie up lots of lovely flies, He got his wish, caught lots of fish, and now happy here he lies.

…perhaps i’ll have two headstones then.  thanks mike. jeff (master of the mutant fly tie)

Response:

Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph.

well, there it is fellers.  for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one)

Jeff:  I’m going to keep that quote to post under the picture of the fly you submitted to the 2002 fly swap, OK? –Stan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph. well, there it is fellers.  for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one)

Oh dear, the kiss of death, and you were doing so well! TL MC

Response:

just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph. well, there it is fellers.  for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one) Oh dear, the kiss of death, and you were doing so well! TL MC

Response:

Last and only time I fished on Silver creek

don’t discount terrestrials on silver creek…also look for ties the trout are less likely to see all the time…. Eugene K.

Response:

Getting ready to make my annual wholesale order of flies from banglerdesh and would like to get a few suggestions  from the western experts  as I hope to make a return trip to Idaho late this summer.  Will hit Henry"s area, Silver creek and Kelly creek.   Last and only time I fished on Silver creek the trico hatch was so dense I could not see or breathe  but caught a couple of trout with my royal wuff  while my mentor had  size22,24,and 26 trico in wounded shape, in crippled shape and with wings and he caught zilch.  Please mention size and color. of flies you think I should purchase.   Indian Joe I would purchase my flies from Jeff Miller [ renowned N.C.tier]     but he will not trade for Lucent sock [at my purchased price]

Would you be willing to send me your contact for your tier(s) in banglerdesh? — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

Getting ready to make my annual wholesale order of flies from banglerdesh and would like to get a few suggestions  from the western experts  as I hope to make a return trip to Idaho late this summer.  Will hit Henry"s area, Silver creek and Kelly creek.   Last and only time I fished on Silver creek the trico hatch was so dense I could not see or breathe  but caught a couple of trout with my royal wuff  while my mentor had  size22,24,and 26 trico in wounded shape, in crippled shape and with wings and he caught zilch.  Please mention size and color. of flies you think I should purchase.   Indian Joe I would purchase my flies from Jeff Miller [ renowned N.C.tier]     but he will not trade for Lucent sock [at my purchased price]

Trade him for a war bonnet as they are great for at least a hundred dozen flies. Joe, you ask a difficult question.  About anything you use out east will work in the west.  It often is a good idea to save a little cash and buy flies that are hatching during the time you’re in the area.  All you need is to buy one for a pattern and spend evenings tying up a few of these and a few of those.  Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph.  Are you any relation to the Chief of that name? : ) George Gehrke Western Hatches R Us

Response:

Last and only time I fished on Silver creek don’t discount terrestrials on silver creek…also look for ties the trout are less likely to see all the time…. Eugene K.

Good suggestion Gene.  You remind me of the time a size 12 Gray Wulff was torn to bits on the Henry’s Fork when everything else that was coming off wasn’t any bigger than a size 18.  Moral:  You never know what will work until you try it.

Response:

i happen to have a few artist proofs of miller’s mutant… how much lucent you got left?  i’ll also consider some of that enron stuff…been hearin a lot about it lately… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Getting ready to make my annual wholesale order of flies from banglerdesh and would like to get a few suggestions  from the western experts  as I hope to make a return trip to Idaho late this summer.  Will hit Henry"s area, Silver creek and Kelly creek.   Last and only time I fished on Silver creek the trico hatch was so dense I could not see or breathe  but caught a couple of trout with my royal wuff  while my mentor had  size22,24,and 26 trico in wounded shape, in crippled shape and with wings and he caught zilch.  Please mention size and color. of flies you think I should purchase.   Indian Joe I would purchase my flies from Jeff Miller [ renowned N.C.tier]     but he will not trade for Lucent sock [at my purchased price]

Response:

Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph.  

well, there it is fellers.  for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one)

Response:

—

So rw what flies will catch a big brown  at the farm? They were sitting in the weeds around me but  this old southern boy   came closer to stepping on them than catching them. IJ

Response:

— So rw what flies will catch a big brown  at the farm? They were sitting in the weeds around me but  this old southern boy   came closer to stepping on them than catching them. IJ

You might try a big bunny leech. Or get out at night with a deer hair mouse, or even a real honest-to-God mouse on certain sections where it’s permitted. There’s a young lady I’ve heard about, who lives right on Silver Creek, who tickles those big browns under the cut banks. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Getting ready to make my annual wholesale order of flies from banglerdesh and would like to get a few suggestions  from the western experts  as I hope to make a return trip to Idaho late this summer.  Will hit Henry"s area, Silver creek and Kelly creek.   Last and only time I fished on Silver creek the trico hatch was so dense I could not see or breathe  but caught a couple of trout with my royal wuff  while my mentor had  size22,24,and 26 trico in wounded shape, in crippled shape and with wings and he caught zilch.  Please mention size and color. of flies you think I should purchase.   Indian Joe I would purchase my flies from Jeff Miller [ renowned N.C.tier]     but he will not trade for Lucent sock [at my purchased price]

Response:

Last and only time I fished on Silver creek the trico hatch was so dense I could not see or breathe  but caught a couple of trout with my royal wuff  while my mentor had  size22,24,and 26 trico in wounded shape, in crippled shape and with wings and he caught zilch.  

You can use a bare hook in those unbelievable Silver Creek trico hatches, as long as you drift it downstream right into their Hoovering mouths. It may be unethical, but it works. Those hatches are so dense that you have to hose down your waders after fishing. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Question:

Good story Mike, I often wondered how you got your expertise. Ernie Harrison

<snipped an good fish tail – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Apparently as soon as I had left the table the gentleman who had been standing there watching all the time had asked him who I was, and whether I was one of the more well known dressers there.  My friend had told him that this was indeed the case, and that I would be back later to continue the demo. "Oh, I don’t need the demo", the gent replied, " I don’t know who the bloke is, but he must be a genius, I only showed him how to tie some of these patterns at my stall in the flea-market shortly before the show started, and he sat and tied them here even better and faster than I can, I was just amazed that someone can learn so fast", and he then left the scene. Mike Connor

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says… <Snipped for berevity Very heartening story… I spent the better half of the evening trying to tie a variant of the yellow stimulator pattern that looks a lot like the one a friend from work showed me. I now have a new foe to vanquish and elk hair is thy name!!! http://www.troutflies.com/flies/yellowstimulator.htm I also need to work on gauging how much to cut and put on. Also keeping it from sliding around is a real challenge! Needless to say I got tow four tied. Two abortive and two looking like frankenstiens brides… I need to start building up a good collection of good quality hackles. Trying to tie dry hackles with saddle feathers is making me mental. I am also deathly afraid of going into fly shops as I am spending altogether too much on gather supplies! Tonight I managed to improvise a dubbing twister from a garbage bag tie. It works but it aint pretty! I think I shall prevail upon Tom at work to show me that pattern again at lunch! I’d love to visit one of those shows. I’ll have to keep my eyes open when one comes around my area. — Michael Era

Question:

I’m not sure how useful a strict definition of fly fishing would be. California, like many other states, makes a distinction for fishing with a single barbless hook and using artificial lures only which seems like the right thing, management-wise.  It’s not clear to me why you’d ever want to distinguish between fly fishers and spinning lure casters for purposes of management. In my book, someone who uses a spinning outfit to cast a bubble with a six foot leader and a fly on the end is fly-fishing.  I cannot see why you’d ever want to prevent someone from fishing in the above manner in waters intended for the more classical forms of angling with a fly rod.  (Unless, of course, you’re British! <g).

Response:

Yeah, that’s pretty much it.   If a state is going to have special fly fishing only streams or seasons, it should IMHO have a decent definition of what qualifies as fly fishing.  

I don’t think Georgia has any FF only public water, and I’m not sure I’d be in favor of it. We do have artificial only/single hook, etc type restrictions which I think are sufficient. I’d agree, though, that if you have a FF only designation you need a good definition.   — Charlie…

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For what its worth, following are Connecticut’s official definitions of a fly and fly fishing. FLY:  A single or double hook dressed with hair, feathers, tinsel, thread, yarn or similar material to which no bait, spinner, spoon, plug, or other device is added. Extra weight may be built into the fly in its construction, as in a weighted nymph, and additional weight may attatched to the leader or line. The use of strike indicators is permitted.

This definition would make lead a head jig fly.  I believe some states have a clause saying that weight cannot be molded onto the hook.

Response:

In my book, someone who uses a spinning outfit to cast a bubble with a six foot leader and a fly on the end is fly-fishing.  I cannot see why you’d ever want to prevent someone from fishing in the above manner in waters intended for the more classical forms of angling with a fly rod.  (Unless, of course, you’re British! <g).

Rhubarb, rhubarb, murmur, murmur The right honorable gentleman from San Diego is full of CRAP!<g Mu Young Lee   Ann Arbor, MI  USA

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For what its worth, following are Connecticut’s official definitions of a fly and fly fishing. FLY:  A single or double hook dressed with hair, feathers, tinsel, thread, yarn or similar material to which no bait, spinner, spoon, plug, or other device is added. FLY FISHING:  Angling with the use of a fly reel, fly rod, fly line, leader, and a fly or flies. Extra weight may be built into the fly in its construction, as in a weighted nymph, and additional weight may attatched to the leader or line. The use of strike indicators is permitted. George Adams

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -For what its worth, following are Connecticut’s official definitions of a fly and fly fishing. FLY:  A single or double hook dressed with hair, feathers, tinsel, thread, yarn or similar material to which no bait, spinner, spoon, plug, or other device is added. FLY FISHING:  Angling with the use of a fly reel, fly rod, fly line, leader, and a fly or flies. Extra weight may be built into the fly in its construction, as in a weighted nymph, and additional weight may attatched to the leader or line. The use of strike indicators is permitted.

I propose continuing this topic so that we might come to a practical definition of fly fishing that we could all shout out to our respective regulatory agencies.   Maybe some official definitions are already sufficient and concise.   If so, I’d love to hear them.   The Connecticut definition above, however, falls short IMO because of what is does not exclude.   Under that definition, an angler use the chuck and duck method of throwing weight but still be legally fly fishing so long as he used fly fishing equipment.   My own state regs (MD) are similarly vague. As I’ve said before, what makes fly fishing mechanically different from spin fishing is that with fly fishing, the fly is propelled by the weight of the line itself, not by weight on the end of the line.   Do you suppose we could actually work constructively together on ROFF to devise a concise regulatory definition of fly fishing that correctly and completely defines what we do? How do your state regs handle it? I’m serious.   For this topic, at least, forget all the controvery and BS we’ve been dealing with elsewhere and be rational and constructive.   We might actually accomplish something.   (I better stop before I start singing Cumbayah.) Joe

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I propose continuing this topic so that we might come to a practical definition of fly fishing that we could all shout out to our respective regulatory agencies.   Maybe some official definitions are already sufficient and concise.   If so, I’d love to hear them. I guess I don’t understand whay fly fishing needs to be defined. Are you proposing fly-fishing only waters, special seasons, etc? — Charlie…

Yeah, that’s pretty much it.   If a state is going to have special fly fishing only streams or seasons, it should IMHO have a decent definition of what qualifies as fly fishing.   In my home state of Maryland, we do have FFO streams, and violations of the spirit of that regulation are not, to my knowledge, a problem here.   However, since I read this post right after a discussion of fishing on the Salmon R. in NY, the abuse of the FFO regulation there was fresh in my mind.   I’ve kind of had a burr under my saddle about that for a few years now.   It’s not my home state, but a substantial portion of the economy in that area derives from we tourists. If it’s not a national problem though, maybe I’m just spinning wheels. Joe Joe

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Question:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I live in Butte, Montana, born and raised here.  Also lived and fished the Sierra Nevada’s near Truckee, CA for about 10 years.  I have degrees in Respiratory Therapy and a graduate degree in Biology.   Been a FF’er since the 70’s.  I very much enjoy still water fishing.  All those lakes near Truckee had a lasting effect.  Milton Reservoir remains one of my favorite places to fish.   I have read this group for the last couple of years and had kind of dropped it due to all the flames and off subject stuff.  I returned a few weeks ago and was surprised to see the lack of venom.  Personally, I enjoy  a fishing group that talks about fishing.   I am curious, what happened? Joe  

Howdy Joe, What happened? Well hell, as someone else put it, we all set down on the front porch and started drinkin’ and bs’n and it turns out we ain’t all so bad, different (‘ceptin wayno and i are johnny rebs) or f&*!ed-up as we originally thought. However, I wouldn’t hold my breath too long if I was you. I see storm clouds a buildin’ out west in the Rockies and up north Canady way. Tight lines, Wataugan Walt

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… I live in Butte, Montana, born and raised here.  Also lived and fished the Sierra Nevada’s near Truckee, CA for about 10 years.  I have degrees in Respiratory Therapy and a graduate degree in Biology.   Been a FF’er since the 70’s.  I very much enjoy still water fishing.  All those lakes near Truckee had a lasting effect.  Milton Reservoir remains one of my favorite places to fish. I have read this group for the last couple of years and had kind of dropped it due to all the flames and off subject stuff.  I returned a few weeks ago and was surprised to see the lack of venom.  Personally, I enjoy  a fishing group that talks about fishing. I am curious, what happened? Joe Howdy Joe, What happened? Well hell, as someone else put it, we all set down on the front porch and started drinkin’ and bs’n and it turns out we ain’t all so bad, different (‘ceptin wayno and i are johnny rebs) or f&*!ed-up as we originally thought. However, I wouldn’t hold my breath too long if I was you. I see storm clouds a buildin’ out west in the Rockies and up north Canady way. Tight lines, Wataugan Walt

    Rebels? In NORTH Carolina ? I was under the impression that everybody north of Jacksonville was a yankee. (that auta kick up some dust). Guess next time I see ya I’ll havta check if yer smoken backwoods en gulpin burbon en branch water ( I prefer southern comfort).                                                      John Popp                                                 pertnear south as ya get                                                   in Sanford Fl.

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Freud would have had a field day with this one.  I’ve heard about having an Oedipus complex, but I’ve never heard of suffering from the Rex. Peter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok…here’s mine.  Sorry to bore you, in advance. I am Fifi, the standard internet test poodle. I am a 6 year old miniature french poodle (white, female) owned by some very nice people in Canada.   I am very pampered and a very, very lucky little dog.  I have a beautiful studded collar that my owner, an elderly couple, got me for Christmas last year (human year).  I am well fed and groomed. Like I said, I am very lucky. Except for sometimes. That sometimes is when Uncle Jim comes by and is left alone with me or takes me to the poodle boutique.  He is a very mean man.  In the interest of good taste and politeness (I am french, after all) I will not elaborate on the details of his acts.   Once, though, he left me in the car on the hottest day of the year while he went in to some place that looked like a big doghouse and had sillohouettes of nude human females painted black on the outside.   Of course, I can’t speak and my owner never knows what he does. The best I can do is bark and try to bite him. — Fifi

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Which just goes to show you…never underestimate an ass. Jon "Fishing’s the last thing on my mind" Cook.

– Shoot far’ Jon, I’ve seen asses that couldn’t be *overestimated*! (-: Frank Church Elkhart, IN Over the hill?    What hill?    I didn’t see no hill….(!)

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Ok…here’s mine.  Sorry to bore you, in advance. I am Fifi, the standard internet test poodle. I am a 6 year old miniature french poodle (white, female) owned by some very nice people in Canada.   I am very pampered and a very, very lucky little dog.  I have a beautiful studded collar that my owner, an elderly couple, got me for Christmas last year (human year).  I am well fed and groomed. Like I said, I am very lucky. Except for sometimes. That sometimes is when Uncle Jim comes by and is left alone with me or takes me to the poodle boutique.  He is a very mean man.  In the interest of good taste and politeness (I am french, after all) I will not elaborate on the details of his acts.   Once, though, he left me in the car on the hottest day of the year while he went in to some place that looked like a big doghouse and had sillohouettes of nude human females painted black on the outside.   Of course, I can’t speak and my owner never knows what he does. The best I can do is bark and try to bite him. — Fifi

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Ok…here’s mine.  Sorry to bore you, in advance. I am Fifi, the standard internet test poodle.

Bloody hell ! Reincarnation yet, thought you got burned to death in a pain threshold experiment.  Welcome back to ROFF. You will doubtless be pleased to here that one of the current discussions is Catfishing, and whether to release the beasts or not. This may at least give you some vicarious pleasure, and compensate you somewhat for the dastardly acts imposed on your good self by Uncle Jim. Seems there are a couple of people on here, very similar to Uncle Jim,  who have problems with cats actually, or maybe just the houses the cats live in ?  Whatever, glad to see you alive and barking. Fifi long thought to be dead, has again raised her elegant head, like a phoenix she rose, ( an unnatural pose ! ), and she still looks well groomed and  well fed. Pampered and polished she is, and goes once a week for a frizz, to the poodle boutique, with her uncle the freak, but no reason to get in a tizz ! The tests have now been postponed, cause Fifi was obviously stoned, you dont feel pain, when youre full of cocaine, and the lexus would have to be loaned. In the future we

Question:

I need help on how to catch a bullfrog…any suggestions? I mean serious suggestions.

Get a fishing fly.  One with a hook in it.  Tie it to a piece of monofiliment.  Tie the other end to a long pole.  Twitch it in front of him.  When he grabs it, jerk the pole to set the hook.  Then unhook him and let him go.         Bill

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I need help on how to catch a bullfrog…any suggestions? I mean serious suggestions. We bought this thing as a tadpole when he was all cute and cuddly(and quiet). Seeing as how we have poststamp size lots where I live, this frog is becoming hated by the neighborhood(along with me). I don’t want to here how nice they sound and I won’t kill him. He will go to a wetland where he belongs. Thanks Faith H.

 The flashlight should work. It does blind them and if your quiet, you should be able to catch him. Steve Johnson http://lornet.com/~alside

Response:

I need help on how to catch a bullfrog…any suggestions? I mean serious suggestions. We bought this thing as a tadpole when he was all cute and cuddly(and quiet). Seeing as how we have poststamp size lots where I live, this frog is becoming hated by the neighborhood(along with me). I don’t want to here how nice they sound and I won’t kill him. He will go to a wetland where he belongs. Thanks

Don’t worry!  I doubt if you’ll get flamed for wanting to relocate a recalcitrant bullfrog.  Although this technique is usually used by people who intend to eat the bullfrog, therefore gentleness is not an issue, the method I’ve heard is to "blind" them with a flash light.   Then you could slap a net over it.  I’m not saying this will be easy!! — Signed- Kellie  USDA zone 7/8, Sunset Zone 33 My Karma Ran Over My Dogma.  It was a Catastrophe. Now my Dogma’s Dead and my Karma’s out of alignment. Get in KNEE DEEP!  <http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/newsletter.html

Response:

I need help on how to catch a bullfrog…any suggestions? I mean serious suggestions. We bought this thing as a tadpole when he was all cute and cuddly(and quiet). Seeing as how we have poststamp size lots where I live, this frog is becoming hated by the neighborhood(along with me). I don’t want to here how nice they sound and I won’t kill him. He will go to a wetland where he belongs. Thanks Faith H.

Response:

I need help on how to catch a bullfrog…any suggestions? I mean serious suggestions.

Get a fishing fly.  One with a hook in it.  Tie it to a piece of monofiliment.  Tie the other end to a long pole.  Twitch it in front of him.  When he grabs it, jerk the pole to set the hook.  Then unhook him and let him go.         Bill

Response:

I need help on how to catch a bullfrog…any suggestions? I mean serious suggestions. We bought this thing as a tadpole when he was all cute and cuddly(and quiet). Seeing as how we have poststamp size lots where I live, this frog is becoming hated by the neighborhood(along with me). I don’t want to here how nice they sound and I won’t kill him. He will go to a wetland where he belongs. Thanks Faith H.

 The flashlight should work. It does blind them and if your quiet, you should be able to catch him. Steve Johnson http://lornet.com/~alside

Response:

I need help on how to catch a bullfrog…any suggestions? I mean serious suggestions. We bought this thing as a tadpole when he was all cute and cuddly(and quiet). Seeing as how we have poststamp size lots where I live, this frog is becoming hated by the neighborhood(along with me). I don’t want to here how nice they sound and I won’t kill him. He will go to a wetland where he belongs. Thanks

Don’t worry!  I doubt if you’ll get flamed for wanting to relocate a recalcitrant bullfrog.  Although this technique is usually used by people who intend to eat the bullfrog, therefore gentleness is not an issue, the method I’ve heard is to "blind" them with a flash light.   Then you could slap a net over it.  I’m not saying this will be easy!! — Signed- Kellie  USDA zone 7/8, Sunset Zone 33 My Karma Ran Over My Dogma.  It was a Catastrophe. Now my Dogma’s Dead and my Karma’s out of alignment. Get in KNEE DEEP!  <http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/newsletter.html

Response:

I need help on how to catch a bullfrog…any suggestions? I mean serious suggestions. We bought this thing as a tadpole when he was all cute and cuddly(and quiet). Seeing as how we have poststamp size lots where I live, this frog is becoming hated by the neighborhood(along with me). I don’t want to here how nice they sound and I won’t kill him. He will go to a wetland where he belongs. Thanks Faith H.

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Brady O. bet me one hundred dollars that if he had ten shots at permit he would catch one; this heightened my somewhat casual interest in poling into the wind. We had another shot at some mudding permit, then another.  Brady O. put the fly right on top of the fish in about 3 feet of water, let it drop, and I told him to strip when I saw a fish move on it and stop. He came tight and the fish took off.  After about 15 minutes he landed his first permit, a 17-pounder, and told me he loved me.   I was still trying to figure out how I lost that hundred dollars, and realized that my mistake was to assume he could not cast into a 20-knot wind.  Now I know. Marshall Cutchin

Marshall, just wanted to say that I for one, am LOVING your posts. I am rarely able to get to the keys and I am living vicariously…… Jack Jack Wheeler "A bad day fishing is better than… come to think of it, I never had a bad day fishing!"

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Brady O. and I cancelled yesterday after we woke up to a 20-knot north wind.  If we hadn’t gotten so bashed about the day before we might have tried it. Today we left running east along the oceanside and started fishing at Sugarloaf Key on a weak outgoing tide and with a good 15-knot northeast wind.  I wasn’t very hopeful because of the weak current but we did manage to spook one school of bonefish.  We then tried another inside flat for bones but no luck. As the tide started to change and come in we ran about 25 miles to the west on the oceanside of the lakes and fished the low incoming.  The wind and dark bottom kept us from seeing very well and we spooked some more fish: a small group of permit and a single.  We checked three other edges inside the Lakes and then another oceanside flat and came up empty-handed.  Finally, at about 3:30 I decided to try a couple of small oceanside flats just west of Key West.  We had a good shot at a tailing permit who glanced at the fly and took off.  The wind started to pick up and began to blow about 20 out of the southeast, but we had great visibility.  Brady O. bet me one hundred dollars that if he had ten shots at permit he would catch one; this heightened my somewhat casual interest in poling into the wind. We had another shot at some mudding permit, then another.  Brady O. put the fly right on top of the fish in about 3 feet of water, let it drop, and I told him to strip when I saw a fish move on it and stop. He came tight and the fish took off.  After about 15 minutes he landed his first permit, a 17-pounder, and told me he loved me.   I was still trying to figure out how I lost that hundred dollars, and realized that my mistake was to assume he could not cast into a 20-knot wind.  Now I know. Marshall Cutchin

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Question:

Yes, me again!  In addition to the firefighter brother, another brother and my father both fly small planes.  So… I’m looking for designs related to flying, pilots, small planes (like Cessna 172), sea/floatplanes (like deHavilland Beaver or Cessna 172 floatplane), etc.  The more detail the better, but I’d like to hear about *any* design you know of.

I saw a bunch of these at the crosstitch store I now frequent. Also firefighter, fishing, etc. designs you requested in your earlier post.  So rest assured they do exist.  Unfortunately I will not be heading out there in the near future. THe designs ranged from extremely simple (it was a Piper or a Cessna plane — just a stick figure really) to more detailed pictures of fishing and a fireman’s prayer. Check out the latest CS&CC and Just XStitch magazines.  I think I saw the firefighter patterns in there. Lucinda

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: Yes, me again!  In addition to the firefighter brother, : another brother and my father both fly small planes.  So… : I’m looking for designs related to flying, pilots, small : planes (like Cessna 172), sea/floatplanes (like deHavilland : Beaver or Cessna 172 floatplane), etc.  The more detail the : better, but I’d like to hear about *any* design you know of. Barbara, Try A&L Designs, 225 Fair View Street, Pottsville, PA 17901-1719 (717)622-6102 EST Jean Spenser showed me her chart of a Cessna last month and I can attest their designs are good.  Since then I’ve spotted their ads in the magazines with other models shown.  I think you will find what you want here.         Deborah

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another brother and my father both fly small planes.  So… I’m looking for designs related to flying, pilots, small planes (like Cessna 172), sea/floatplanes (like deHavilland Beaver or Cessna 172 floatplane), etc.  The more detail the better, but I’d like to hear about *any* design you know of.

fiance. The chart was only 3.75 or so, and I haven’t tried it yet, but since I can’t find anything else, this will do. Hope this helps! Chris Loria P.S. The folks at Stitchers Source are wonderful!! I highly recommend making purchases from them !

Response:

Yes, me again!  In addition to the firefighter brother, another brother and my father both fly small planes.  So… I’m looking for designs related to flying, pilots, small planes (like Cessna 172), sea/floatplanes (like deHavilland Beaver or Cessna 172 floatplane), etc.  The more detail the better, but I’d like to hear about *any* design you know of. Thanks very much!  …and, as I’m saying in each of my "Looking for…" posts, I will summarize to the newsgroup if I get any email responses. Livermore CA  /  Weather always looks worse through a window                                 |   Mark & Barbara Laufersweiler  |          What is a weed?                                 |        not been discovered.

Response:

Question:

I am new to the midwest and a local suggested I try the Pere Marquette. We live in Chicago, so I thought we’d make a weekend of the trip. I would appreciate the what, when, where, and how’s of fly fishing there for Salmon. Suggested camp grounds would be appreciated, as well as best route from Chicago and approximate travel time. Thanxs in advance, Bryan

Response:

I am new to the midwest and a local suggested I try the Pere Marquette. We live in Chicago, so I thought we’d make a weekend of the trip. I would appreciate the what, when, where, and how’s of fly fishing there for Salmon. Suggested camp grounds would be appreciated, as well as best route from Chicago and approximate travel time. Thanxs in advance, Bryan

                                   * I am a native to MI (at least I am now) and I visit the PM rather frequently. If you email me at home I can give you phone numbers and the like for my favorite lodge.  I really like the Johnsons Pere Marquette lodge.  I have stayed there for only $35-/night midweek during the salmon season.  I don’t know what it is this year.  I now have a cabin of my own up there only 7 min. from the flies only water of the PM.  I suggest that you go mid-week if you can.  If you go, try to find the most inaccessible spot you can.  The river is so full of salmon you can practically walk across on their backs, in any hole in the river.  The trick is finding a place with few enough fellow fishermen that the fish haven’t already been spooked into oblivion.  A drift boat with a guide is an excellent solution if you have the money.  I have not done that yet, though.  The Johnsons lodge is also an Orvis shop (sorry) but they really are nice anyway.  They give away a really good map of the flies only section of the river.  It helps a lot.  Good luck.                                     * Lenny Bloksberg . . .

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Question:

Before I begin this trip report I would like to thank the following folks who provided much useful information via e-mail that helped me to plan Jeff Bryson, Nic Lyons, Lyle Nichols, Kief Hillsbery, Tim Medley, Ed Zalta, Keith Price.  I would also like to thank the park rangers, but I can’t, because what little information they provided was either badly out of date or just plain wrong.   Day 1:  Arrival Loaded the VW in a cold drizzle in San Francisco.  Fortunately, this was the most weather we would see the entire trip.  Arrived at South Lake at 4:30 pm and stashed the bike.  Got to North Lake trailhead parking at 5:00. Had shocking realization that I had left all coffee apparattus at home.   Searched the car and came up with one cotton sock, slightly used.  It would have to do.  Hit trail and hiked for 1 hour to Lower Lamarck Lake.  Made camp in a luxurious site on the east shore.  From campsite we thought we could see Lamarck Col, our next day’s destination.  Fortunately, we were way wrong as we were looking up at the very steep snow field on the north face of Mt. Lamarck.  Went to sleep beneath billions and billions of stars.  (Who needs a tent in the Sierra?)  Everything went fine until the brightest goddamned moon I have ever seen came out and rioted around the lake.  Maybe a tent would have been a good idea after all. Finally fashioned eye shades and nodded off. to be continued… -Matt Spitzer

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Day 2 (Monday, September 6):  Darwin Canyon via Lamarck Col Awoke very early to get morning reflection shots of Mt. Lamarck on the lake. Then I made my first attempt to make coffee using my sock/drip maker.  It wasn’t very successful, as the sock tended to soak up all the boiling water and scald my fingers.  Off to a fine Alpine start (10:00 am) we headed up the trail to the upper Lamarck Lake and then  took the made, but unmarked trail up to the Col.  About 4 miles (I’m guessing) and 2,000 ft later we arrived at the foot of the Col, a little winded (yeah, right).  We hadn’t known what to expect, so we had brought along ice axes.  As it turned out, the snowfield on the Col was so rutted out by people’s foot tracks that there was a waist high wall on the downhill side to prevent us from falling.  At the top (12,900) we had great views of the Piute Crags and the lovely town of Bishop to the North and Glacier encrusted Darwin Peak and the gorgeous (literally) Darwin Canyon to the South and West.  After a brief break Minio shot head first down the slope into Darwin Canyon.  I followed behind, enjoying an occaisional plunge step in some loose stuff.  We arrived at the highest lake and then it was a simple walk, much of it over boulders ranging in size from a tv sets to VW buses, down to the lowest lake where we made camp, exhausted. Fishing in the lake was poor for golden trout to 8", but scenery was excellent. Scenery became even more intese at sunset when alpenglow lit the back wall of the canyon and everything glowed orange.  That night many billions of stars, some shooting, and several sattelites came out to play, until the friggin’ moon came out and drove them off. Day 3:  Darwin Canyon to Evolution Basin This morning I devised an improvement to the coffee maker.  I propped open the end of the sock with two crossed twigs and suspended the whole thing from a string tied to the twigs.  Using my new Hane’s drip maker I was (theoretically) able to make my morning cup of Guatemalan love juice without losing any layers of skin from the fingers.  However, the water goes through the sock much too quickly, resulting in an underextracted brew.  This was remedied by soaking sock in cup like a tea bag, but final squeeze scalds fingers again.  Packed up camp and countoured through Darwin Bench and around west slope of ridge extending from Darwin Peak.  From this slope we get excellent panoramic vista stretching from Evolution Valley to Evolution Basin including many snow packed peaks.  Minio and I reach consensus that Evolution Valley has been much over-hyped, as it is a rather unimpressive low stretch of bear country, lined by rather unimpressive walls. Evolution Basin, and the peaks to the south and east, by contrast, is glorious.  The slope we are traversing is itself a thing of beauty, covered with blooms of columbine, shooting star and numerous other flowers including some kind of onion-thing.  Eventually we work our way down toward Evolution Lake, but come to an impass where we have to do a little free climbing (50 ft of 5.4 at most) and then we are home free.  On our way to the lake we observe that if we had just gone up once more we could have waltzed down to our present position without any climbing at all.  By the shores of the stunningly beautiful Evolution Lake we join the John Muir trail and soon come across a trail crew, busily filling in the old trail and planting shrubs along its course. The new trail they have built for us is a work of art, a veritable super highway through the High Sierra. After a brief foot-soaking break by the lake’s edge we are off.  Leaving the lake we hike beside a small cascading stream up to Saphire Lake where we make camp.  In faithful observance of Labor Day Minio breaks out his copy of International Trotskyist and begins reading.  I head back down the stream that connects the two lakes and begin fishing at 4 pm.  By 6:30 I have fished my way back to our campsite in failing light, having caught and released 72 golden trout ranging from embarrasingly small to 10 inches on dry flies. A note about small goldens:  they are incredibly stupid.  About the only thing I could do to disuade them from hitting was to badly drag the fly against the current.  They never seemed to mind the fact that I fished right through a hatch of small brown mayflies with a #10 Cream Wulff.  That evening we slept out of the fairly stiff wind in a rock shelter that Minio built by the North shore of the Lake while I fished.  The whiskey bottle is already getting dangerously empty. to be continued… -Matt Spitzer

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