Question:

Actually they are not. Change in angle of attack (not pitch)  changes the airspeed. Pitch change and angle of attack change are not always coincident, as we both well know. And of course, increased  pitch can indeed make the aircraft go up, since it can change the airspeed and therefore the power requirement, and the excess power causes the aircraft to climb.

As we say in my field, "Everything is deeply intertwingled."  Most control inputs on aircraft are NOT isolated in their effects.

Response:

Check out the latest instrument flying handbook (page 5-17). Entering a constant rate climb is different to managing a constant rate climb once you’re established – if you’re not entering it right and hence not getting established right then it probably is difficult to get it all sorted out. If you’re trying to do this in 500 foot chunks (pattern A, pattern B etc.) try a 3000 foot climb, that will give you plenty of time to work out all the relationships. Performance = power + attitude So know what power setting and what pitch angle gets the result you want, set those values and the plane will do what you want. Mat

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Learn the pitch attitude on the AI and the power that give you specific performance. Maintain attitude/power setting to see if that gives you what you want and adjust accordingly. Just don’t chase the airspeed and VSI needles. Bracket it in with small pitch or power changes. Kind of like tracking a course .. track a heading .. evaluate it’s effect .. then change heading if needed. It might help to go out VFR and make a list of the attitude and power combos that give specific descent/climb/airspeed. Write these down and memorize them as starting points in the future. I think you’re on the right track with pitching to vertical speed and adjust airspeed with power.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof. The thing I fail to see is your point, unless you mean, for example, that there is an intertwingling when a  change of pitch results in a change of angle of attack which results in a change in airspeed which results in a change of the power required to maintain altitude, thus the aircraft cl;imbs. Which is what I said in the first place, so I agree.  It’s intertwingled.  So one could maintain that a pitch change is what makes the aircraft climb.   But it would indicate a lack of understanding, don’t you agree? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually they are not. Change in angle of attack (not pitch)  changes the airspeed. Pitch change and angle of attack change are not always coincident, as we both well know. And of course, increased  pitch can indeed make the aircraft go up, since it can change the airspeed and therefore the power requirement, and the excess power causes the aircraft to climb. As we say in my field, "Everything is deeply intertwingled."  Most control inputs on aircraft are NOT isolated in their effects.

Response:

Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof.

You’re right, it’s a made up word, but it was coined by one of the key people in the field so it shows up from time to time. The thing I fail to see is your point, unless you mean, for example, that there is an intertwingling when a  change of pitch results in a change of angle of attack which results in a change in airspeed which results in a change of the power required to maintain altitude, thus the aircraft climbs.

Changing the pitch, changes the angle of attack, which increases lift and causes the plane to climb.  It also slows the plane down, which decreases lift.  Of course drag also plays into this, which all means that you just can’t change one control in isolation to the others no matter what you are trying to accomplish. Back when I was working for the Army, another Army lab nearby did some Human Engineering work with a fly-by-wire helicopter system.  They totally decoupled the controls as the pilot saw them:  The "collective" made you go up and down at a rate proportional to it’s displacment , the "cyclic" caused you to translate in the direction of it’s displacement, the pedals just rotated the aircraft at a speed proportional their displacment.  It evidentally drove anybody who really knew how to fly helicopters crazy as they wanted to put in the corrections that their training had conditioned them to know were required.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof. You’re right, it’s a made up word, but it was coined by one of the key people in the field so it shows up from time to time. The thing I fail to see is your point, unless you mean, for example, that there is an intertwingling when a  change of pitch results in a change of angle of attack which results in a change in airspeed which results in a change of the power required to maintain altitude, thus the aircraft climbs. Changing the pitch, changes the angle of attack, which increases lift and causes the plane to climb.  It also slows the plane down, which decreases lift.  Of course drag also plays into this, which all means that you just can’t change one control in isolation to the others no matter what you are trying to accomplish.

There may be a momentary increase in lift, which causes an acceleration upwards, but I would not call it "causing the plane to climb".  I think it is more aptly called "swooping", which takes place until the aircraft returns to steady state. Steady state climbing has nothing to do with increasing lift.  It is due to excess of power.   Lift is equal to weight as it was in level flight. (Yes I know: sum of upward forces = sum of downward forces, for the purists). And one other thing.  It is quite possible to change one control in isolation to the others.  Whjat is variable is the aircraft’s resulting performance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Back when I was working for the Army, another Army lab nearby did some Human Engineering work with a fly-by-wire helicopter system.  They totally decoupled the controls as the pilot saw them:  The "collective" made you go up and down at a rate proportional to it’s displacment , the "cyclic" caused you to translate in the direction of it’s displacement, the pedals just rotated the aircraft at a speed proportional their displacment.  It evidentally drove anybody who really knew how to fly helicopters crazy as they wanted to put in the corrections that their training had conditioned them to know were required.

Response:

Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof. You’re right, it’s a made up word, but it was coined by one of the key people in the field so it shows up from time to time.

Which field is that?  And who? Just curious, John

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I looked up "intertwingled", and I couldn’t find it. The nearest I  could find  is "intertwined" and "intermingled", so I will assume your word "intertwingled" is a coinage of a word to mean something between the two, or perhaps a combination thereof. You’re right, it’s a made up word, but it was coined by one of the key people in the field so it shows up from time to time. Which field is that?  And who?

Systems Analysis.  Tom DeMarco (principle guy at Yourdon).

Response:

Yes, I was taught to lead with a power setting. The instructor even had me make up a list of typical power settings and post them on the panel. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you know the power setting and pitch that will give you the desired performance it should be easy.  Just set the power and pitch and the plane will climb at the desired rate.  Same thing for descents.  Don’t chase the VSI. Mike MU-2 I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

– "ground zero" is clearing up, but the fallout from the towers still rains down around the world.

Response:

I struggled with this too until a seemingly obvious discovery was made; I wasn’t using the AI to set pitch.  After years of flying slippery gliders w/o AIs, and transitioning to  flying lightly loaded light aircraft, it never occurred to me to use the AI to set pitch in a climb or descent. Why?  Well, the slippery stuff is quite sensitive to pitch and not as stable as light planes, but since you fly it in turbulent conditions most of the time, and because they lack good visible references over the nose, and because power is constant (0), and because they are usually cranked over in a steep bank, I ended up using the airspeed most of time (the glider VSI is useless in determining pitch).  That is, look at the horizon then calibrate it by looking at the airspeed (esp airspeed trend).  Anyway, this works quite well in lightplanes, even under the hood when you combine it with the VSI…. at least up to a point… My instructors never really noticed except that my climbs and descents weren’t always as crisp as they should be.  I slowly discovered that I could use the AI to set a specific pitch attitude along with a specific rpm/mp to get a specific climb or descent.  One bar up, one bar down, etc.  I know the old pros here are probably snickering but I wonder if they specifically tell students how to use line widths on the AI to set up a specific pitch (?). No one told me that since my first instructional flights back in the 70s — and they probably should have covered up the AI then.  Otis, you were the first person in this post to specifically state what  one should do.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Learn the pitch attitude on the AI and the power that give you specific performance. Maintain attitude/power setting to see if that gives you what you want and adjust accordingly. Just don’t chase the airspeed and VSI needles. Bracket it in with small pitch or power changes. Kind of like tracking a course .. track a heading .. evaluate it’s effect .. then change heading if needed. It might help to go out VFR and make a list of the attitude and power combos that give specific descent/climb/airspeed. Write these down and memorize them as starting points in the future. I think you’re on the right track with pitching to vertical speed and adjust airspeed with power. I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Just fly the airplane. Get used to it. Add some power, pitch up if needed, trim, and maintain steady climb. Take power off, pitch down if needed, trim, and keep a steady descent. Just get a feel for it — there’s nothing mechanical about it. Getting a feel for the airplane you fly will tell you how much of each to do so that you can arrive at the desired point quickly and without too much fishing for the right settings. Go out on your own with the airplane, better without instructor on board, nobody to contaminate your thought process and play a couple of hours in changing its configuration to desired climbs and descents until you become smooth. Go slow flight, back and forth until you get a sense for the acceleration and deceleration while doing pitch and power changes and keeping level or exact VSI numbers. At one point I had memorized the setting on the Archer, until they rebuilt the engine and it felt like it got more power, then I had to get resettled so that I could fly my IFR routines smoothly.  Forget about the physics discussions, most folks love to talk about a subject they lack — you need solid differential calculus to truly claim to understand how exactly the forces interact but thankfully it is not needed. Just fly the damn thing.         D.         PP_ASEL IA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Yeah, find a power and pitch combo that will give you the performance you want.  When you want a certain constant rate climb just set your power, set your pitch(and maintain it) wait till the aircraft stabilizes and then make final corrections.  Usually the aircraft will stabilize at the target airspeed if you are patient and you won’t find yourself chasing needles. Use the VSI only as a trend instrument unless you have a Vario or IVSI, even then (1) Power,for climb (2) Pitch, to airspeed (3) verify Rate when stabilized at target airspeed.  With a little practice this sequence becomes automatic , and very reliable.  Once the numbers are determined the only variant factors are mainly, load(gross wt.), altitude, configuration , and C.G. Happy Flying R.Wallace CFIAIM

Response:

That’s how I was taught early on .. and I learned back in the 70s too. One bar .. two bar .. up .. down .. xxxx rpm. I think most problems chasing the needles come from dwelling on certain instruments and not maintaining a good scan with the AI as "home base". Actually .. there’s an old book I have laying around somewhere .. I can’t recall the exact title .. I want to say "Performance Flying’"??? Anyway it explains a lot of this and actually gives examples of attitude and power for several different aircraft. I’ll try to find it and post exact title. Don’t know if it’s still available or not.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I struggled with this too until a seemingly obvious discovery was made; I wasn’t using the AI to set pitch.

Response:

Thanks for all of your suggestions. Sounds like I need to go out and do a little experimenting with the plane on my own to find the right combinations of pitch/power to get the right results.

Response:

I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place.

I don’t want to get into a pitch/power argument here, but… You already have your constant airspeed climb and descent, right? Set up the exact same way. Note your climb or descent rate. Assuming a fixed pitch propeller, add or reduce power by 100 rpm increments, maintaining the same airspeed (you’re already trimmed for it, aren’t you?) until you get the rate you want. Now you’ll know the pitch/power combination for that rate in your airplane. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions?

You used the word "lag." So you already know the answer. WAIT the 5-6 seconds before you do anything else! – Mark Kolber APA, Denver, Colorado www.midlifeflight.com       email? replace "spamaway" with "mkolber

Response:

Okay Capt…..   when you are 100′ agl on final in your Boeing and your speed degrades, you push the nose down right…???     Read the Delta crash report at DFW many years ago and you will be enlightened…. John….. an almost 20,000 hour pilot who has is figured out

Response:

Excess power only means an airplane is capable of climbing……    increasing angle of attack makes it climb…. or changes the rate of climb

Response:

I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Many long years ago when I was in learning to fly instruments, I had the same problem. The trouble was that I found it very difficult to hold a constant pressure fore-and-aft on the yoke.  I solved the problem by locking my arm into position against the side wall of the aircraft and the arm rest.  If I needed to adjust elevators, I would move my whole arm slightly.  I could still adjust aileron with finger pressure.  Later, I learned what the trim tab was for. I still use the locked arm trick when it is bumpy.  It keeps the bumps from causing elevator inputs. The Comanche can be quite sensitive in pitch.  It works for me.  YMMV. Hank Henry A. Spellman Comanche N5903P

Response:

I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed,

Wow!!!  20,000+ hours and never knew that this was the way that I should be doing it.  Maybe I needed a different flight instructor.  :-)  :-) Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow……. These are basic aerodynamic principles. Bob Moore ATP ASMEL  B-707, B-727, L-188 CFI  ASE-IA USN  S-2F, P-2V, P-3B PanAm (retired)

Response:

Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow…….

        Not according to the FAA which recommends power to establish speed and pitch to stay on the glide slope.

Response:

"Pitch to the glideslope, power to the airspeed." That’s the way I was taught to fly jets, and that’s the way the autopilot does it. Bob Gardner

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, Wow!!!  20,000+ hours and never knew that this was the way that I should be doing it.  Maybe I needed a different flight instructor.  :-)  :-) Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow……. These are basic aerodynamic principles. Bob Moore ATP ASMEL  B-707, B-727, L-188 CFI  ASE-IA USN  S-2F, P-2V, P-3B PanAm (retired)

Response:

Actually they are not. Change in angle of attack (not pitch)  changes the airspeed. Pitch change and angle of attack change are not always coincident, as we both well know. And of course, increased  pitch can indeed make the aircraft go up, since it can change the airspeed and therefore the power requirement, and the excess power causes the aircraft to climb. Unless, fo course, you are on the back side of the power curve, in which case… But I know you know all that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, Wow!!!  20,000+ hours and never knew that this was the way that I should be doing it.  Maybe I needed a different flight instructor.  :-)  :-) Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow……. These are basic aerodynamic principles. Bob Moore ATP ASMEL  B-707, B-727, L-188 CFI  ASE-IA USN  S-2F, P-2V, P-3B PanAm (retired)

Response:

Power make the airplane go up and down….. Pitch  makes the airplane go fast or slow……. These are basic aerodynamic principles.

This always reminds me of the joke where the student goes out on the runway and jams the control wheel forward and the instructor asks what he’s doing and he says "when this thing hits 60, you push the throttle in and we’ll climb."  :-)

Response:

I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

If you know the power setting and pitch that will give you the desired performance it should be easy.  Just set the power and pitch and the plane will climb at the desired rate.  Same thing for descents.  Don’t chase the VSI. Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 8 hours into my instrument training and am having triouble with constant rate climbs and descents. I Just can’t seem to nail the climb or descent rate. I know that I am supposed to pitch for vertical speed and adjust power for airspeed, but I’m still all over the place. The 5-6 second lag on the VSI is throwing me off. Any suggestions? -Dennis

Response:

Question:

6, 7, or 8

Probably my choice would be a 6 on a calm day and a 7 wt for anything blowing that annoys . . . both loaded with shooting heads. — George G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html   affordable bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

I usually have my clients use a 7 or 8 weight rod with an Airflo clear intermediate line. What is the best weight fly rod for Redfish and Speckeled trout?

– Capt Gordon Churchill http://www.flyfish-nc.com Guided flyfishing on the Roanoke River and the Crystal Coast of NC out of Atlantic Beach/Morhead City/Beaufort.

Response:

I usually have my clients use a 7 or 8 weight rod with an Airflo clear intermediate line.

_______  An 8 WT is just too much work Gordon.  I would rather punch a 7 with an 8 WT shooting head.  Of course, specks don’t spook as much anyhow and the casts don’t have to be that long for them as with Tarps, Snook (my favorite) etc. — MrG. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html (shop site)   affordable bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

What is the best weight fly rod for Redfish and Speckeled trout?

Response:

6, 7, or 8

Response:

Question:

If I were the judge I’ld dismiss the first three and sentence you to tying two dozen EHK dry flies and one years probation on 4, 5 and 6. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gentlemen, It has been brought to my attention that I may have commited numerous and severe crimes against the sport of fly fishing during my attendance at the Maine Clave. In my current state of poor health I have little recollection of the events of last week (although I hope in due time that my memory will unfade) so I cannot confirm nor deny these allegations. However, it seems that I have been charged with using the following: (1) a plastic fly rod (2) a disc drag fly reel (3) a landing net (4) one–sometimes even two–foam strike indicators (5) one–sometimes even two–splitshot (6) one–sometimes even two–nymphs, beadhead no less As I have no memory of these heinous alleged indescretions, I plan to plead an "I-have-no-recollection-of-that-incident-your-honor" defense. However, just because that line of defense has worked wonderfully for U.S. Presidents past and present does give me confidence. Therefore, gentlemen, I ask you to please, *please* stand up in my defense and deny these ugly charges. yr obt svt –Steve

Response:

Gentlemen, It has been brought to my attention that I may have commited numerous and severe crimes against the sport of fly fishing during my attendance at the Maine Clave.

        let’s just say the dynamite cap incident will remain "our little secret"… wayno

Response:

I wasn’t even there and want to go on record as stating you’re likely guilty as hell.  I want a special procecutor appointed!  Reno?! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Steve Zimmerman writes: (1) a plastic fly rod (2) a disc drag fly reel (3) a landing net (4) one–sometimes even two–foam strike indicators (5) one–sometimes even two–splitshot (6) one–sometimes even two–nymphs, beadhead no less

 (1) I saw a wooden fly rod and a graphite one also.  No plastic. (2)  Drag reels are fine. (3)  Landing nets are fine as long as it has the net like you used.  The nylon rope ones you see in Wally World suck. (4)  Nothing wrong with using a strike indicator. (5)  Try to keep it to one split shot.  It works better. (6)  If you know what nymph to use, you don’t need two.  I told you what nymph to use.  Case closed!  <g Dave

Response:

Paul Goodwin writes: If I were the judge I’ld dismiss the first three and sentence you to tying two dozen EHK dry flies and one years probation on 4, 5 and 6.

ROFLMAO.  I seem to remember you with two of those sticky foam strike indicators, a giant grasshopper (also a strike indicator), and two of the biggest and uggliest weighted nymphs I’ve ever seen. <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

I tried nymphing but I didn’t inhale.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Paul Goodwin writes: If I were the judge I’ld dismiss the first three and sentence you to tying two dozen EHK dry flies and one years probation on 4, 5 and 6. ROFLMAO.  I seem to remember you with two of those sticky foam strike indicators, a giant grasshopper (also a strike indicator), and two of the biggest and uggliest weighted nymphs I’ve ever seen. <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

I tried nymphing but I didn’t inhale.

neither did any of the fish.  :) Peter

Response:

[allegations snipped] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(1) a plastic fly rod (2) a disc drag fly reel (3) a landing net (4) one–sometimes even two–foam strike indicators (5) one–sometimes even two–splitshot (6) one–sometimes even two–nymphs, beadhead no less Therefore, gentlemen, I ask you to please, *please* stand up in my defense and deny these ugly charges. yr obt svt –Steve

I am willing to stand as a character reference for you however you should be warned that should you ever travel to Canada, this list of charges will no doubt result in you being assigned to the "dangerous offender" category and the sentence will probably be life – nymphing first current for suckers. (ask Louie for help – he’s good at it.) Peter

Response:

Peter Charles: I am willing to stand as a character reference for you however you should be warned that should you ever travel to Canada, this list of charges will no doubt result in you being assigned to the "dangerous offender" category and the sentence will probably be life – nymphing first current for suckers. (ask Louie for help – he’s good at it.) Peter

LOL.  That is the first one I have caught in any of the currents.  They are quite prevalent in wing dam pool.  They must move down the currents preparing to go into pondy for the winter. Louie

Response:

Gentlemen, It has been brought to my attention that I may have commited numerous and severe crimes against the sport of fly fishing during my attendance at the Maine Clave. In my current state of poor health I have little recollection of the events of last week (although I hope in due time that my memory will unfade) so I cannot confirm nor deny these allegations. However, it seems that I have been charged with using the following: (1) a plastic fly rod (2) a disc drag fly reel (3) a landing net (4) one–sometimes even two–foam strike indicators (5) one–sometimes even two–splitshot (6) one–sometimes even two–nymphs, beadhead no less As I have no memory of these heinous alleged indescretions, I plan to plead an "I-have-no-recollection-of-that-incident-your-honor" defense. However, just because that line of defense has worked wonderfully for U.S. Presidents past and present does give me confidence. Therefore, gentlemen, I ask you to please, *please* stand up in my defense and deny these ugly charges. yr obt svt –Steve

Response:

Question:

You said it twice, so, I can only guess that was a sincere *response*. Opie  **Hurt in Lenoir!**         isn’t that the town that inspired the famous axiom, to wit: "if you’re found here at night, you’ll be found here in the morning"? or was that "you can’t go home again"?         no, wait:  "stuck inside of lenoir with the ashville blues again"…ah, hell, forget it.

I knew a guy named Emil Lenoir many years ago.  Once told me that he bought a twelve year old Tuareg girl when he was in the foreign legion in Morocco.  Not sure what the connection is here. Wolfgang who has been to Lodi, WI but managed to escape

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wolfgang who has been to Lodi, WI but managed to escape         in the inimitable style of ol forty himself:  not to put too fine a line on it, or some similar shit, but wasn’t creedence clearwater making reference to lodi, california? anally retentively yours, wayno

No, no, NO!  What DO they teach in the schools these days?  Leopold squeezed the Congo with an iron hand from Belgium, WI. Hitler wrought havoc on the entire European continent (not to mention a whole heap of gypsies and other undesirables) from Berlin, WI.  Friday night witch frys are a lovely old tradition in Salem, WI.  And why on Earth would anyone suppose that an immensely popular rock band would sing a song about some nothing little burg in California?  And don’t even get me started on what goes on in Oconomowoc!! Wolfgang geographer nonpareil         p.s.:  and isn’t this just the kind of question that answers the question, "what the hell does wayno *do* all the time…

the answer IS the question grasshopper

Response:

…. wilson’s is always good…. Sure!  Never took ME there, sumbitch! Wolfgang who has created a monster.  Becky wants to go backpacking on the AT in NC in April.  Wanna go fishin Waldo?    :)

sure as shit i’ll go afishin’ with ya….. but *not* on wilsons <g walt

Response:

You said it twice, so, I can only guess that was a sincere *response*. Opie  **Hurt in Lenoir!**

        isn’t that the town that inspired the famous axiom, to wit: "if you’re found here at night, you’ll be found here in the morning"? or was that "you can’t go home again"?         no, wait:  "stuck inside of lenoir with the ashville blues again"…ah, hell, forget it.         wayno

Response:

Wolfgang who has been to Lodi, WI but managed to escape

        in the inimitable style of ol forty himself:  not to put too fine a line on it, or some similar shit, but wasn’t creedence clearwater making reference to lodi, california? anally retentively yours, wayno         p.s.:  and isn’t this just the kind of question that answers the question, "what the hell does wayno *do* all the time…

Response:

This past weekend I was visited by two gracious Southern gentlemen, Tom Brown and Jeff Miller. …

FIVE people fishing Wilson’s at the same time ? Sounds crowded. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

This past weekend I was visited by two gracious Southern gentlemen, Tom Brown and Jeff Miller. … FIVE people fishing Wilson’s at the same time ? Sounds crowded.

lol’s…. walt (couldn’t really call them drsob’s, at least when they’re not present)

Response:

Now looka here Walt, I don’t mind a little embelishment of detail to make a good story, but *nobody* will believe *that* introduction. It was a fun trip, though.  Wish I could remember what Tom — Tom Brown Wake Forest, NC Please don’t tell my mother that I hang out at ROFF; she thinks I play piano at a whorehouse.                                              Author’s name withheld This past weekend I was visited by two gracious Southern gentlemen, Tom Brown and Jeff Miller.

Response:

This past weekend I was visited by two gracious Southern gentlemen, Tom Brown and Jeff Miller.

<sniped I don’t know about anybody else, but the writing here is a good as the articles I read in my fly fishing magazines and I really like the annual subscription rate…

Response:

‘preciate the invite Walt! Opie  **No LDB’s in Walt’s future from me!**

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This past weekend I was visited by two gracious Southern gentlemen, Tom Brown and Jeff Miller. Tom stayed here at my home and Jeff stayed down at his cabin, the only roughing-it, aside from the stream, was cooking those big 16 ounce rib eyes on the grill friday evening. Saturday morning we headed out to Wilson’s Creek after stops at the flyshop and the grocery store for sandwiches and beer. We arrived at the trail head, rigged up, grabbed a walking brew, and headed down the trail to meet the stream. No encounters of the snake kind, a uneventful 30 minute hike. The stream was absolutely gorgeous. The water was running high and clear from the recent rains we have been enjoying here in the mountains. The usual rainbow in the first pool rejected my initial proffering, par for the course, I think he enjoys teasing me. We fished upstream with the usual ahhhs and reflections that a beautiful day on the water inspires deep within. Initially, the fishing was slow as we moved up. We each caught a fish or two with some misses. I was fishing a black beetle but switched to an adams para b/c in my haste to leave the house, I had forgotten my sunglasses and a low riding black meniscus beetle is tough to keep track of even with glasses. Both Tom & Jeff were fishing visible flies and the switchover made sense. We fished up through the timeless granite pools, each taking his turn, each watching the waters with anticipation of the next strike. We arrived at the junction of Little Wilsons and Jeff headed solo up that tiny water…. water that is infested with little feisty brownies in the 5 to 10 inch range. Tom and I continued up Wilson’s and it was like night and day. Whereas the fishing was somewhat slow before, we were now catching fish in nearly every pool or riffle, I think we even had a three fish pool, which is an accomplishment on these waters. On this day, I encountered a knot failure. I lost a fly in a rhodo when the line broke at the clinch knot. I usually don’t suffer that failure, the knot is a good one and I’ve been using it as long as I can remember. It’s usually my wind knot that fails. The secret to a good clinch is 5 turns, through the loops, wet with spittle, and gently cinch down by holding the fly in one hand and the tippet in the other, don’t tighten by pulling on the tag end of the tippet. Also, I believe that tippet needs to be similar in size to the eye of the hook for a clinch to perform properly. A size 6 wooly bugger on 6x will break at the knot….. just my experience. Anyway, Jeff, after much success on ‘lil wilsons, pulled out into a camp of beer-swillin, pig-lovin, banjo-playin rednecks. That must have been a sight. He hiked back to the truck and was kind enough to drive it up to where Tom & I would be pulling out so we would not suffer those gross indignities <g. It was great to see Jeff’s truck when we pulled out. The last 1/2 mile of river all I heard from Tom was "where’s the beer!" We lounged a bit enjoyin’ a beer or two, ate our lunches, and Jeff and I headed back up Wilson’s, leaving Tom with the beer. I think it made Jeff’s day when he caught one more fish than I on this side trip…. he being such a competitive cuss. Great day, great fish, and greater companions…… thanks guys, I needed it. Walt

Response:

I never saw that original post, thanks for the report, have been wondering about fishing Wilson’s sometime soon  Would you say the fishing generally stays good between now and, say, October?  Thanks, This past weekend I was visited by two gracious Southern gentlemen, Tom Brown and Jeff Miller. Tom stayed here at my home and Jeff stayed down at his cabin, the only roughing-it, aside from the stream, was cooking those big 16 ounce rib eyes on the grill friday evening. Saturday morning we headed out to Wilson’s Creek

Regards, Jeff

Response:

I never saw that original post, thanks for the report, have been wondering about fishing Wilson’s sometime soon  Would you say the fishing generally stays good between now and, say, October?  Thanks,

that’s whaccha get fer killfilin’ me <g sure jeff…. wilson’s is always good…. walt

Response:

‘preciate the invite Walt! Opie  **No LDB’s in Walt’s future from me!**

not my fault op. i swear, it was jeff’s fault. he was in charge of the invites… ldb’s…. shoot, i think we drank a bunch of them <g walt

Response:

You said it twice, so, I can only guess that was a sincere *response*. Opie  **Hurt in Lenoir!**

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ‘preciate the invite Walt! Opie  **No LDB’s in Walt’s future from me!** not my fault op. i swear, it was jeff’s fault. he was in charge of the invites… ldb’s…. shoot, i think we drank a bunch of them <g walt

Response:

…. wilson’s is always good….

Sure!  Never took ME there, sumbitch! Wolfgang who has created a monster.  Becky wants to go backpacking on the AT in NC in April.  Wanna go fishin Waldo?    :)

Response:

This past weekend I was visited by two gracious Southern gentlemen, Tom Brown and Jeff Miller. <sniped I don’t know about anybody else, but the writing here is a good as the articles I read in my fly fishing magazines and I really like the annual subscription rate…

Amen!  An English professor I knew in college was fond of saying that writing is the most difficult work that man has ever created for himself.  He never read this news group.  Never have so many made it look so easy. Wolfgang waiting for the day when some ambitious soul collects it all and turns it into a novel

Response:

This past weekend I was visited by two gracious Southern gentlemen, Tom Brown and Jeff Miller. Tom stayed here at my home and Jeff stayed down at his cabin, the only roughing-it, aside from the stream, was cooking those big 16 ounce rib eyes on the grill friday evening. Saturday morning we headed out to Wilson’s Creek after stops at the flyshop and the grocery store for sandwiches and beer. We arrived at the trail head, rigged up, grabbed a walking brew, and headed down the trail to meet the stream. No encounters of the snake kind, a uneventful 30 minute hike. The stream was absolutely gorgeous. The water was running high and clear from the recent rains we have been enjoying here in the mountains. The usual rainbow in the first pool rejected my initial proffering, par for the course, I think he enjoys teasing me. We fished upstream with the usual ahhhs and reflections that a beautiful day on the water inspires deep within. Initially, the fishing was slow as we moved up. We each caught a fish or two with some misses. I was fishing a black beetle but switched to an adams para b/c in my haste to leave the house, I had forgotten my sunglasses and a low riding black meniscus beetle is tough to keep track of even with glasses. Both Tom & Jeff were fishing visible flies and the switchover made sense. We fished up through the timeless granite pools, each taking his turn, each watching the waters with anticipation of the next strike. We arrived at the junction of Little Wilsons and Jeff headed solo up that tiny water…. water that is infested with little feisty brownies in the 5 to 10 inch range. Tom and I continued up Wilson’s and it was like night and day. Whereas the fishing was somewhat slow before, we were now catching fish in nearly every pool or riffle, I think we even had a three fish pool, which is an accomplishment on these waters. On this day, I encountered a knot failure. I lost a fly in a rhodo when the line broke at the clinch knot. I usually don’t suffer that failure, the knot is a good one and I’ve been using it as long as I can remember. It’s usually my wind knot that fails. The secret to a good clinch is 5 turns, through the loops, wet with spittle, and gently cinch down by holding the fly in one hand and the tippet in the other, don’t tighten by pulling on the tag end of the tippet. Also, I believe that tippet needs to be similar in size to the eye of the hook for a clinch to perform properly. A size 6 wooly bugger on 6x will break at the knot….. just my experience. Anyway, Jeff, after much success on ‘lil wilsons, pulled out into a camp of beer-swillin, pig-lovin, banjo-playin rednecks. That must have been a sight. He hiked back to the truck and was kind enough to drive it up to where Tom & I would be pulling out so we would not suffer those gross indignities <g. It was great to see Jeff’s truck when we pulled out. The last 1/2 mile of river all I heard from Tom was "where’s the beer!" We lounged a bit enjoyin’ a beer or two, ate our lunches, and Jeff and I headed back up Wilson’s, leaving Tom with the beer. I think it made Jeff’s day when he caught one more fish than I on this side trip…. he being such a competitive cuss. Great day, great fish, and greater companions…… thanks guys, I needed it. Walt

Response:

Question:

Another Lousy Day in Paradise might be a good read for him.  Another other ideas brewing out there?

Since you live where you do, may I suggest that you bring him a couple of books by Tom McGuane. I think he is a local suthor for you. One of my favorites is Outside Chance, but I understand he has a new one out that is just as good if not better. Big Dale  

Response:

Warren, Nice story, you can learn a lot from the old timers. One of the best friends I have in my chapter of TU is 84 years old. He drives 30 miles to meetings & has lots of history to share. He builds beautiful hand made nets for our banquet that helps us make some money for our conservation projects. He came to last fall’s fishing outing & I took him under my wing. We couldn’t get to the best spots because he needs a double knee replacement but we managed to find a spot were he slid down on his butt. On the way up I took his equiptment & then helped pull him up the bank. We didn’t catch any fish but had a great time anyway. Joan Stoliar one of the owners of the  company Folstaf wading staff is involved with Project Access which builds handicapped fishing access in the Catskills. One day every spring she enlists the aid of some TU chapters & a couple of other fishing clubs to help rebuild the ramps (they sometimes get washed out during the winter). We also plant willows to help shade some of the banks. Check this site for forther info: http://www.projectaccess.com/ We are all going to need help getting down to the river when we get older (not too far down the road for me) & I hope there will be some other fisherman willing to help maintain access. Sol

Response:

<snipped Big Dale’s recommendation Thanks for the info.  I will look into getting a copy and reading it first to see if he will enjoy it Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Sol, You gave me an idea.  Perhaps I can buy him a year membership in FFF here in Livingston.  I have been meaning to join myself.  It would give him something to do if he isn't already a member.  I think I might offer to take him out fishing too.  We probably won't catch many fish, but I am sure that the trip will be fun anyways.  Thanks for the link, I will check it out this weekend when I have more time. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

<snip I'm still trying to sort some things out in my head.  I don't know why this struck me as hard as it did, but I think I am going to make this a little routine.  Hopefully I will be able to give this guy something to look forward to and someone to talk to every now and then.  If that is all I can do, then I will do what I can.  Who knows, maybe it will be just the thing to keep this old guy going for a little longer or at least bring a little happiness to his life.  I only wish I could find another outlet like roff for him to participate in to help fill the vast void.

Warren, Nice gesture. I hope when your angling days are done you will find someone as thoughtful to help you through that final phase of your fishing life. Perhaps he may best be able to continue his fishing through you. What better gift could you possibly give him than the friendship of a fellow angler? Kiyu

Response:

Listen to his stories.  Type them up.  Print 'em out.  Take some pictures of his favorite spots.  Ask to borrow some of his old photos and scan them.  Put together a little booklet of his stories along with scanned photos and have a print shop bind it up.  That'd make a nice gift. Mu

Response:

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Warren Great post. Don't feel too sorry for the guy; just be aware that it comes to us all, if we are lucky. And for sure he is getting out there and enjoying the water and the sport in the only way still available to him. Buy the stuff if its a good deal and you can use it. Thats a way to show respect. The worst approach is to ignore him. Enuf seriousness. An alternative approach on handling this scenario it is to first scout out the situation. Then when he is crossing a field or some other exposed place, quarter in from behind. Drive your teeth into his Achilles tendon, throwing your weight to the right in a rolling motion. As he comes down, release your bight and spin out of the way, taking care to avoid his flailing kicks. Now back off and assess the situation to make sure he actually did fall to the right, in which case no repositioning is necessary ; quarter quickly in from infront and behind to the neck. Definitely reposition if he has fallen to the left. Take the best booty for yourself, its your right, but be sure to share with the rest of the group in order of their help on other hunts. Dave

Warren, Make a print out of David Snedeker's post (above) and show it to the old chap. If He has any SOH, he will probably pee his pants. It might be the best laugh he's had in ages! Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Warren, A few options come to mind. You could take him lake fishing; no steep banks or currents to contend with, and if you're in the right place at the right time, the fishing can be spectacular. If he's not interested in stillwaters, and you can afford the rod fees, take him to Armstrongs, or somewhere similar. Again, great fishing and much easier to navigate than the Yellowstone river. (BTW, I don't think TBone would be bugged a bit by your idea of bringing your friend a fresh-caught fish or two. In a similar situation, he'd probably do the same thing. It's a tradition as old as fishing itself.) -- Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

Response:

<snip After three days of reading the replys, the original message finally shows up on my server.  Nice story Warren. -- Levi Trample the weak Hurdle the dead

Response:

BTW, I don't think TBone would be bugged a bit by your idea of bringing your friend a fresh-caught fish or two.

I know.  I bet he will actually get a kick out of *me* keeping fish. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Today I was fishing some of the channels of the Yellowstone that I frequent.  I started fishing around 3 and stopped around 7.  When I got back to the truck and was taking off my waders an old timer pulled up and started to ask me how the fishing was.  We ended up talking for close to an hour. Seems this gentleman had fished these channels long before I was even born.  We both shared a love for these channels and think of them as favorite stretches. Needless to say,  we had a common bond despite the vast difference in years so a conversation was not difficult to keep going.   After talking to the guy for about 30 minutes I started to get kind of sad. Joe said (his name was Joe) that he had stopped fishing in the last couple of years because he was too old and couldn't get around good enough anymore.   He had to give up fly tying as well because he can't sit for long periods of time.  He still drives along the river and checks up on his favorite spots I guess just for something to do.   Or maybe it is just his way of still having some kind of contact with fly fishing.  Either way it was sad to see. It really got me to thinking  about what happens when one becomes too old to fish.  I am guessing that he is all alone because he said that he gave some of his rods to his nephews who don't fish so the rods are just sitting in a basement.  Gave me the impression that his wife and kids are deceased if he ever was even married and had kids.  This man was telling me stories about fishing this area back in the 50's and 60's and so it was quite interesting aside from the pitty factor I was feeling. We began talking about the cost of equipment and materials and how expensive things were now compared to before the increase in popularity of fly fishing. He said that he used to by custom made bamboo rods for $60 with $10 extra for modifications to the specs, ect.  Anyways, since he isn't tying anymore he said he would give me a bunch of his tying hooks and would part with some of his gear and tying materials for pretty cheap.  It wasn't that he was trying to sucker me into buying all of his stuff so he could have some pocket money, I think he just wanted to see it go to a nice home. He told me where to find him so next Friday I think I am going to pay him a visit after I get done fishing in the morning.  It was kind of funny, he said to just go to the apartment complex that he lives in and ask for "Joe the fisherman on the 3rd floor."   Since he has to buy his fish from the store now, I think I will take him a couple of fresh caught trout as a gift. I feel obliged to go and visit him, not so much to buy anything he has, but just so he can keep up on what things are like out on his old haunt.  He was really interested in what the channels are like now.  He can't go and see for himself  so he was asking me all kinds of questions.  I could tell that he loved fishing very much and loved this area just as much if not more.  At one point during the conversation I could swear that he started to get a tear in his eye. When I got home the whole event really started to sink in.  I started to think about what I am going to do when I reach the age that I can no longer participate in this "hobby" that we all love so much.  It really has me wondering what happens when you devote so much of your life to something and then get to a point that you are unable to do what you love to do  anymore.  I can only hope that I never have to face this dilema.  But if I do, I hope to that I will have someone to talk to and maybe bring me a fish once in awhile. I just wish there was something I could do like take him fishing even just once more. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Today I was fishing some of the channels of the Yellowstone that I frequent.  I started fishing around 3 and stopped around 7.  When I got back to the truck and was taking off my waders an old timer pulled up and started to ask me how the fishing was.  We ended up talking for close to an hour.

        (snip)         nice sentiments, warren.         the answer to the question is photography. wayno

Response:

Warren.. Thanks for that moving story you shared.  My father, who taught me to flyfish, is now paralyzed from the waist down.  He waits for me to report on the last trip, what flies I have last tied, and what the streams were like. The streams are firmly fixed in his mind.  He knows every spot of which I speak.  My mother also reports that when he sleeps she often sees his casting arm going back and forth, and sometimes his hand making the familiar circular motion of an experienced fly tier. I like to think he is on his favorite steam or at his bench.  I suspect he is. Maybe these are things we ought to remember when we are tempted to take verbal shots at each other.  It puts it all in perspective.  It matters not what rod or reel we use, or the degree of our skill.  Let us enjoy each other and the sport we love even though every last one of us is at times a bit odd.  Let us also hope that when each of us age, which God willing we will, and then our time to depart comes, that this God in his grace provides a place to toss a fly and fish our favorite haunt.

Response:

[snip] When I got home the whole event really started to sink in.  I started to think about what I am going to do when I reach the age that I can no longer participate in this "hobby" that we all love so much.

[snip] You’ll do what this gentleman did. You’ll find a good home for it. Paul

Response:

Hmm….not exactly the sort of post I look for in the morning with my coffee. I mean the comics are what I read first in the newspaper, ya know? But it is the sort of thing, that to be a part of, creates a memory….john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Today I was fishing some of the channels of the Yellowstone that I frequent.  I started fishing around 3 and stopped around 7.  When I got back to the truck and was taking off my waders an old timer pulled up and started to ask me how the fishing was.  We ended up talking for close to an hour. Seems this gentleman had fished these channels long before I was even born. We both shared a love for these channels and think of them as favorite stretches. Needless to say,  we had a common bond despite the vast difference in years so a conversation was not difficult to keep going. After talking to the guy for about 30 minutes I started to get kind of sad. Joe said (his name was Joe) that he had stopped fishing in the last couple of years because he was too old and couldn’t get around good enough anymore. He had to give up fly tying as well because he can’t sit for long periods of time. He still drives along the river and checks up on his favorite spots I guess just for something to do.   Or maybe it is just his way of still having some kind of contact with fly fishing.  Either way it was sad to see. It really got me to thinking  about what happens when one becomes too old to fish.  I am guessing that he is all alone because he said that he gave some of his rods to his nephews who don’t fish so the rods are just sitting in a basement.  Gave me the impression that his wife and kids are deceased if he ever was even married and had kids.  This man was telling me stories about fishing this area back in the 50’s and 60’s and so it was quite interesting aside from the pitty factor I was feeling. We began talking about the cost of equipment and materials and how expensive things were now compared to before the increase in popularity of fly fishing. He said that he used to by custom made bamboo rods for $60 with $10 extra for modifications to the specs, ect.  Anyways, since he isn’t tying anymore he said he would give me a bunch of his tying hooks and would part with some of his gear and tying materials for pretty cheap.  It wasn’t that he was trying to sucker me into buying all of his stuff so he could have some pocket money, I think he just wanted to see it go to a nice home. He told me where to find him so next Friday I think I am going to pay him a visit after I get done fishing in the morning.  It was kind of funny, he said to just go to the apartment complex that he lives in and ask for "Joe the fisherman on the 3rd floor."   Since he has to buy his fish from the store now, I think I will take him a couple of fresh caught trout as a gift. I feel obliged to go and visit him, not so much to buy anything he has, but just so he can keep up on what things are like out on his old haunt.  He was really interested in what the channels are like now.  He can’t go and see for himself  so he was asking me all kinds of questions.  I could tell that he loved fishing very much and loved this area just as much if not more.  At one point during the conversation I could swear that he started to get a tear in his eye. When I got home the whole event really started to sink in.  I started to think about what I am going to do when I reach the age that I can no longer participate in this "hobby" that we all love so much.  It really has me wondering what happens when you devote so much of your life to something and then get to a point that you are unable to do what you love to do  anymore. I can only hope that I never have to face this dilema.  But if I do, I hope to that I will have someone to talk to and maybe bring me a fish once in awhile. I just wish there was something I could do like take him fishing even just once more. Warren X#-[ Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Why not spend time brinigng him along on trips while introducing some new people to th s port.

I was thinking of that and the float idea as MC suggested, but there are two problems.  The first is that he said he can’t even walk down a bank because he can’t get back up since his legs are so weak now.  Second, he can’t sit for long periods of time.  I suggested that he try some bait fishing, but I think he almost took it as an insult, although he was kind and pretended he didn’t hear.  He is pretty old and I doubt he can wade anymore even with help and the area is very rocky and slippery.  I don’t think I would like to take on the liability of taking him out like that. I guess the best I can do for now is bring him a fish every now and then (Oh god, wait until TBone hears this :-}), buy some of his gear, and tell him what things were like.  In the future, maybe a float trip when I get a boat built. Something short with lots of stops would probably be ok. I’m still trying to sort some things out in my head.  I don’t know why this struck me as hard as it did, but I think I am going to make this a little routine.  Hopefully I will be able to give this guy something to look forward to and someone to talk to every now and then.  If that is all I can do, then I will do what I can.  Who knows, maybe it will be just the thing to keep this old guy going for a little longer or at least bring a little happiness to his life.  I only wish I could find another outlet like roff for him to participate in to help fill the vast void. Maybe I can take him some books to read.  Trout Bum and Another Lousy Day in Paradise might be a good read for him.  Another other ideas brewing out there? Other than quartering him and taking all the loot that is (Thanks Dave S, I’ll let you know how it goes). Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Buy his gear if you like it and can afford it, and take him fishing if you can.  The best bet is a boat trip. He will probably be pleased to see his gear go to somebody who will use and look after it. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

Why not spend time brinigng him along on trips while introducing some new people to th s port. You will accomplish 3 things, make the gentleman happy, propogate the love of the sport in others, and really get some pleasure for yourself by doing it. Regards from Montreal John Brkich

Response:

Warren Great post. Don’t feel too sorry for the guy; just be aware that it comes to us all, if we are lucky. And for sure he is getting out there and enjoying the water and the sport in the only way still available to him. Buy the stuff if its a good deal and you can use it. Thats a way to show respect. The worst approach is to ignore him. Enuf seriousness. An alternative approach on handling this scenario it is to first scout out the situation. Then when he is crossing a field or some other exposed place, quarter in from behind. Drive your teeth into his Achilles tendon, throwing your weight to the right in a rolling motion. As he comes down, release your bight and spin out of the way, taking care to avoid his flailing kicks. Now back off and assess the situation to make sure he actually did fall to the right, in which case no repositioning is necessary ; quarter quickly in from infront and behind to the neck. Definitely reposition if he has fallen to the left. Take the best booty for yourself, its your right, but be sure to share with the rest of the group in order of their help on other hunts. Dave

Response:

Question:

Hi there, Flyfisherman here from West Springfield.  I do a little tying as well….fish the Westfield mostly because it is so handy but would be interested in venturing to other rivers. Paul

Response:

Paul, Western Mass Fly Fishermen meet the third Monday of each month (Sept – May) at the Polish American Citizen’s Club on East Street in Ludlow. Meetings start with a tying demo at 7:00 PM. Free tying classes start in January and last 8 weeks. They are held on Thursday nights. Watch this NG for the starting date. There are several members from West Side and Feeding Hills, and the greater Springfield area. You could call me at 413-283-5543 if you need more info. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

i recently got in to fly fishing and tying not a pro yet butt working on it! always selling  cards, for a list of your fav team go to paul

Response:

Paul: If you want to meet some local fly fishers, come to the TU meeting on January 11 at 7PM at the Elks Lodge in West Spfld (on Morgan Road). We’re having our annual fly tying Extravaganza in January – there will be several great local tyers plus a couple of supply vendors.  We will be running tying classes starting in a couple of weeks.  Also, the next Monday is the Western Mass Fly Fishers meeting in Ludlow.  Maybe George Adams will pipe in with directions.  They also run tying classes every winter (for free – a super deal).  Lots of good people in both groups. Hope to see you there. –Stan

i recently got in to fly fishing and tying not a pro yet butt working on it!

Response:

Question:

i am going fishing in june lake from september 1-6, and i was wondering if anyone could give me recommended spots or suggestions for fly- fishing and spinner baits.         thanks, david dimond

Response:

I am assuming that your referring to June Lake Loop, in California. June lake itself has been good to me and my family for trolling and bait soaking along the south east shore. Silver Lake offers protection from foul weather as you can hide behind the island and is my favorite in the loop. If you fish Silver lake you MUST fish Rush Creek which runs between Silver and Grant lake. If you have the time and appreciate your surroundings, I would head north on 395 and float tube Virginia Lakes (top of the summit above Mono Lake). For lunkers you should head south to Lake Crowley and again this lake is best float tubed, though you can fish from shore (alligator point). I prefer float tubing lakes which should justify my preferences. Best lure is Panther Martin "pm4,pm6 I think?" black with red dots, gold flash. Streamers would be olive matuka (with red throat), olive, black and purple wooly buggers. Terrestrial’s (hopper,cricket, ant) should be considered this time of year (rush creek), look around you. Caddis, adams and mosquito on the dry flies and if all else fails use the zug bug. Best of luck to you. There are just too many places to fish and enjoy life in that general area of the eastern sierra’s.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i am going fishing in june lake from september 1-6, and i was wondering if anyone could give me recommended spots or suggestions for fly- fishing and spinner baits.  thanks, david dimond

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Question:

Hello, it is much easier to take the non-ac-bus from Hat Yai to Satun (96 km to the Southwest) in the morning at 7.10 am or 9.40 am for about 30 Baht.

by me at lunch.  er, sorry, you might make it for dinner.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From Satun take the taxi for about 20 Baht to the harbour plus the Express Ferry at 1 pm or 4 pm for 150 Baht in 75 Minutes. Immigration formalities are at the pier. Have fun. Ciao Maybe not the most direct route, but jump the train down to Butterworth, and catch a ferry from Penang up to Langkwai. Steve Hello: Anybody with info on this please post/email.  Will also appreciate info on inexpensive accomodation at these two places.  I plan on being there mid-December.  I will fly from the US to BKK and then domestic to Hat Yai. Langkwai is across the border. Thanks in advance. Satya

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Hello, it is much easier to take the non-ac-bus from Hat Yai to Satun (96 km to the Southwest) in the morning at 7.10 am or 9.40 am for about 30 Baht. by me at lunch.  er, sorry, you might make it for dinner.

So what do you do once you exit your cool A/C bus? Turn on your portable, battery-powered air-conditioner, or rent a luxury limousine to drive you around? Most of the Thais survive the non-AC buses. You will too… – Fabian

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There was once a ferry, during the dry season, from Satun town to Langkawi. No need to go to Penang first. Only way to know if the ferry will operate this December is to simply go to Satun town and ask about it. There are many local travelers, so my guess is yes, it will operate. For a ride from Hat Yai to Satun town, ask any "tuk tuk" driver in Had Yai. He will know not only about the public buses, but also about the small and private mini-vans which ferry local Thai office workers between Had Yai and Satun town during the rush hours each day. Foreigners are welcome on this mini-vans. Note that this is an "international" ferry crossing. Passports will be checked at a small island about halfway between Satun and Langkawi, and the small ship will be inspected. The islands in the area are fantastic. Small boats to the islands on the Thai side of the border leave mostly from a small fishing village called Pak Bara. — George Moore http://www.slip.net/~georgem – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe not the most direct route, but jump the train down to Butterworth, and catch a ferry from Penang up to Langkwai. Steve Hello: Anybody with info on this please post/email.  Will also appreciate info on inexpensive accomodation at these two places.  I plan on being there mid-December.  I will fly from the US to BKK and then domestic to Hat Yai. Langkwai is across the border. Thanks in advance. Satya

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Maybe not the most direct route, but jump the train down to Butterworth, and catch a ferry from Penang up to Langkwai. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: Anybody with info on this please post/email.  Will also appreciate info on inexpensive accomodation at these two places.  I plan on being there mid-December.  I will fly from the US to BKK and then domestic to Hat Yai. Langkwai is across the border. Thanks in advance. Satya

Response:

Hello, it is much easier to take the non-ac-bus from Hat Yai to Satun (96 km to the Southwest) in the morning at 7.10 am or 9.40 am for about 30 Baht. From Satun take the taxi for about 20 Baht to the harbour plus the Express Ferry at 1 pm or 4 pm for 150 Baht in 75 Minutes. Immigration formalities are at the pier. Have fun. Ciao – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe not the most direct route, but jump the train down to Butterworth, and catch a ferry from Penang up to Langkwai. Steve Hello: Anybody with info on this please post/email.  Will also appreciate info on inexpensive accomodation at these two places.  I plan on being there mid-December.  I will fly from the US to BKK and then domestic to Hat Yai. Langkwai is across the border. Thanks in advance. Satya

Response:

Hello: Anybody with info on this please post/email.  Will also appreciate info on inexpensive accomodation at these two places.  I plan on being there mid-December.  I will fly from the US to BKK and then domestic to Hat Yai. Langkwai is across the border. Thanks in advance. Satya

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Question:

I am traveling to Last Chance, ID for the weekend.  I would appreciate any reports on conditions on the Henry’s Fork and the rivers in the park, especially the Firehole.  Suggestion for flies and sizes will be appreciated (I’ve been tying mostly small caddis dries, princes, and GRHE — sizes 16 & 18). Thanks. Jim Impara

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I am traveling to Last Chance, ID for the weekend.  I would appreciate any reports on conditions on the Henry’s Fork and the rivers in the park, especially the Firehole.  Suggestion for flies and sizes will be appreciated (I’ve been tying mostly small caddis dries, princes, and GRHE — sizes 16 & 18). Thanks. Jim ImparaHi Jim

The whole area is fishing good.  Your choice of flies are right on but add some BWO dries and emergers as well. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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Question:

Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this?  Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks. — Gerald Strom University of Illinois at Chicago

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Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this?  Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks. —

cut it off…put the dry on you hatband of drying patch… if this makes your tippet too short then cut this off and replace it too… TimW

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Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this?  Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks.

Hi Gerald First off there is no such thing as a dumb question.  That’s what this group is all about — questions and answers. When you want to change a fly just cut one off and tie on another.  There are special nippers made for this purpose OR if you don’t have one a small finger nail clipper will work just fine.  When I first started I used a finger nail clipper on a loop of old fly line around my neck for several years. There are several different knots used to tie on flies.  You can go to the library and find a book on fly fishing or check at your local fly shop.  There is a neat little book (about 3"x5") on knots available today.  I personally like the Uni Knot but there are other good knots as well.  Many of the fly line manufacturers include knot tying instructions with there fly line.  Also I have an old aluminum Perine fly box that has the knot tying instruction on the front of the box. Keep asking the questions and I’m sure you’ll find someone more experienced on this group who will help. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT(96 catalog)

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Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this?  Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks. —

I must admit that I have never thought about it till now.  basicly i cut (bite) the old one off,  I guess that this results in the tippet ( end of the leader) becomming shorter and shorter.   In the UK you can get in small "snap" links from Mustard which are designed for easy fly changing Julian

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Just cut fly off as close to hook as as possible then tie on new fly.Best to have someone show you improved clinch knot or uni knot

best of luck -jkralic

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Heck, if you haven’t caught the darn thing in a tree behind you, you can’t be that dumb… Just snip it off and buy lots of tippet.

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writes: Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this? Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks.

No need to apologize for your question.  the only stupid question is the one that doesn’t get asked.  Enjoyed the pun by the way ;^ When you want to change flies, you simply cut off the first one and tie on another. Eventually this will shorten your tippet (if you don’t lose it to a fly eating tree or bush first, or cast some wind knots into it), but then you cut that off and tie on a new piece.  Orvis has a waterproof knot booklet for about $5 that has the appropriate knots listed and how to tie them. Personally I use the Orvis knot to tie on most trout flies and a Trilene knot to tie on any fly large enough to pass the tippet through the eye twice (large streamers, bass flies, steelheadsalmon flies, saltwater flies).  On flies that I want to use a lot of action on I will often use a Duncan’s loop.                            Hope this helps,                                      Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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In follow up to one beginners question to another, does it matter what size leader you use as long as the tippet is a smaller size? Do I need to change leaders if I’m going to the trout stream after I’ve been fishing for bluegill in a pond, or just the tippet? Thanks. D. Lowe

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In follow up to one beginners question to another, does it matter what size leader you use as long as the tippet is a smaller size? Do I need to change leaders if I’m going to the trout stream after I’ve been fishing for bluegill in a pond, or just the tippet? Thanks. D. Lowe

I myself work on the premise that my tippet should be either the same or one size smaller than the tip section of my leader. For determining the end "tippet" size a good general rule is too devide your hook size by three. Example: Size 12 adams – use a 4x tippet. Reel simple

Response:

In follow up to one beginners question to another, does it matter what size leader you use as long as the tippet is a smaller size? Do I need to change leaders if I’m going to the trout stream after I’ve been fishing for bluegill in a pond, or just the tippet? Thanks. D. Lowe I myself work on the premise that my tippet should be either the same or one size smaller than the tip section of my leader. For determining the end "tippet" size a good general rule is too devide your hook size by three. Example: Size 12 adams – use a 4x tippet. Reel simple

One approach is to use a 3X leader and then step down to the desired tippet size  using 6 – 8 inch long transition sections.  For example, if you want to use a 6X tippet, you would use 8 inches of 4X and 8 inches of 5 X between the leader and tippet section. This way you only carry one size leader. Regards, Chuck

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One approach is to use a 3X leader and then step down to the desired tippet size  using 6 – 8 inch long transition sections.  For example, if you want to use a 6X tippet, you would use 8 inches of 4X and 8 inches of 5 X between the leader and tippet section. This way you only carry one size leader. Regards, Chuck

Not a bad idea Chuck except for me personally I find it very difficult to  tie on those little pieces of tippet material while there is a feeding frenzy going on. For some reason my fingers and brain seem to disconnect while whatching trout splashing and jumping all around me, not to mention the problem of cold fingers or low light. I generally carry a range of leaders sizes 3x-6x pretied with 3 feet of tippet section done while at home whatching a fishing show or something. This allows me more time to fish and less aggravation on the water. I only tie on the water if I have to. Tight lines Russ

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(DLowe21757) writes: In follow up to one beginners question to another, does it matter what size leader you use as long as the tippet is a smaller size? Do I need to change leaders if I’m going to the trout stream after I’ve been fishing for bluegill in a pond, or just the tippet? Thanks. D. Lowe

Boy this can be a can of worms! Commercial knotless tapered leaders consist of three parts – butt section (which is heavy and level or very slightly tapered), the tapering section (which rapidly tapers down to your tippet size), and the tippet section (which is also level and the part that you tie onto the fly).  So your leader already has a tippet on it.  You can replace the tippet as needed as you break it off or cut it down from changing flies.  Much less expensive to tie on a new tippet section than to change an entire leader every time you mess up the tippet.  You can also change how your leader performs by cutting back or adding tippet.  If you add tippet you will get more slack out near the fly, if you cut back tippet you will get more power delivered to the fly resulting is less slack and more ease in turning over large flies or regular flies in windy conditions.  You can play around with the butt section in the opposite manner to accomplish the same thing, but that means tying two knots instead of one.  And of course if you really want to get carried away you can vary both to fine tune the leader to your needs. A good approximate guide to which tippet size to use is to divide the size of your fly by 3 and use the resultant number for your tippet X number. For instance: size 18 fly divided by 3 = 6X tippet, size 12 divided by 3 = 4X, size 16 divided by 3 = 5X and a little left over.  In slow clear water with spooky trout you may have to go one X smaller, and in fast pocket water you may be able to go one X larger.  Listen to what the fish say, they’ll tell you. Length of leader is more a function of the water type than anything else. We use longer leaders for greater subtlety (less obtrusive than the fly line) and more suppleness.  Long leaders – 9 to 12 ft.- are most commonly needed in slow clear water with spooky trout.  That is because the trout gets a long time to inspect your fly in slow water and are typically more critical of drag.  Short leaders – 6 to 7 1/2 ft. – are used in faster water for better control with typically larger flies in fast water conditions.  In fast water the trout gets only a short time to see your fly before he takes it or rejects it and there is not usually as much food available (harsher conditions) so he tends to be more opportunistic than in the slower water conditions.  Since we don’t need the added subtlety and suppleness of the longer leader in faster conditions we don’t use it. Always best to use the shortest heaviest leader you can get away with. Again listen to the trout.   If the trout aren’t taking your fly you probably need to go longer and finer.  Sometimes the shortest stoutest leader that will work is a 12 ft. 6X or 7X leader.                      Hope this helps,                              Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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