Question:

[...] PULEAZE cease with the html. Text only, thanks very much.

Response:

[snipped] <yawn how about yawning us an answer, eh mr. grey matter?

OK, if you promise not to top post any longer? There is no "answer", as anyone with a collection of more than a couple of flyrods (or over two dozen, in my case) will attest. We often allow ourselves "current favorites", and on occasion may even profess to a single "favorite" rod. But within a week we’re loving another just as much. We’re fickle. Sue us But, fwiw, I’ve got nothing better to do during rehab this morning, so I’ll play along: the finest five piece nine foot eight weight rod ever made is *my* Winston BL5 9/8. It has the sweetest action of any 8 or 9 weight in my stable (6 or 7 rods in that range) and you never notice the ferrules. It *is* the Holy Grail – if that happens to describe a highly portable bonefish and striper machine with no equal, period. OK? /daytripper (tune in later when I wax eloquent over my 7/2, or one of my 9/5s, or ….)

Response:

A couple fun questions for the group to chew on… What is the Holy Grail of flyrods?  Be specific.  Pick a single identifiable rod that you feel has more historical significance than any other.  Explain. The Leonard used by G.E.M. Skues.  It was more than a little responsible for some of his excellent writings and musings.

For me, there isn’t _one_ particular rod as there are too many that would fit the above description, and like most things involving tackle, no one would agree – one person’s "Holy Grail" is another’s flea-market, carnival glass candy dish.   For example, in no particular order, the above mentioned rod, rods used by Bergman, Ed Payne’s first rod (or a Payne-ferruled Leonard), Hemingway-owned rods, various Garrison rods (for example, very early rods, such as John Alden Knight’s or Miller’s "Wyandach" rod, or even the first of certain tapers) or even the borrowed Payne that started Garrison off.   Heck, even the rod(s) used in "the movie," or just the first split-bamboo, fiberglass, or graphite, etc. might qualify to one or more people. What is the Rolls Royce of flyrods?  Again, be specific.  Pick a single rod (or line of rods)that you feel represents the pinnacle of the rod building craft.  Explain. The Hexagraph range.  They combine all the desirable attributes of a good fishing rod, without the disadvantages.( excepting the relatively high price).

I suppose in very general terms, assuming a middle and general range of size, either the early Payne (the later Paynes are not, IMO, the rods the early rods were) or Garrison rods, given the "pinnacle of the rod building craft" condition.  But they have the disadvantage of needing a certain level of care.   That said, I don’t think there is a specific "Rolls-Royce of flyrods." A 6 1/2′ foot Payne to a saltwater fisher is little more than kindling, and a big Garrison with a large Fin-Nor to a small-stream trouter is a tentpole.  As to pure workmanship, I have a Payne-made multipart/multirod "set," thought to be a "one-off," that is probably the finest overall workmanship I’ve ever seen (and others have agreed), but as a true fishing "masterpiece," IMO, it’s marginal, given it’s bulk and as a whole, its overall lack of practicality.  But I also have what was a very inexpensive very light St. Croix glass, completely redone, that is as good at its purpose any I’ve used, and the finish is, again, IMO, as good as it comes. TC, R

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Hexagraph range.  They combine all the desirable attributes of a good fishing rod, without the disadvantages.( excepting the relatively high price). fascinated by this, mike. Although I fish for salmon with B&W, this is the first good word I’ve heard about the hexagraph range. I’m shocked, btw, to learn that you’re even younger than I am. Ah those youthful days! Lazarus — Lazarus Cooke I know some of the rods from Bruce and Walker were pretty awful, in fact I cast a few.  This I feel was due to many of them having the wrong design characteristics. I did  not handle them all, and none of the salmon rods, so my comments are rather general in nature, and should not be construed as a general condemnation of the B&W rods.

I fish for salmon either with a 9 foot hardy – the first rod I bought – 6/7 weight, on which I’ve also caught most of my salmon, or on a B&W ‘Silver Stream’ 12 foot, which was never highly regarded but which I love, or a lovely rod (to my hand) – a very gentle 15 foot B&W ‘grilse’ – only 6 or 7 weight, but terrific for covering bouldery streams – quite big – like the upper reaches of the Finn, in Donegal, or the Mourne, in Tyrone, which are my favourite salmon rivers. These two rods are  quite slow, but they don’t get all nervous in the big winds of the West of Ireland, and you can keep control of the line and, if you’re lucky, the fish, in amongst all those boulders. So I like B&W a lot. SNIP As I have also said before, these rods are "fishing" tools, not "casting" tools. If you want a cannon, then get a super fast Sage or Loomis etc.  If you want pleasurable tireless fishing on rivers and streams, get either a good cane, ( not my preference, too much trouble,, and too expensive anyway), or a Hexagraph.

I agree with this distinction. Especially with salmon, you have to enjoy casting, rather than worry about it, since you may end up doing an awful lot of it for any fish you may hook. So I’m all for an easy, pleasant action rather than something that shoots the line a bit further. And few of the trout I catch are hooked more than (at the most) fifteen yards away. Occasionally, for fun, I’ll  cast a trout line further, but it’s only for the fun. i know that at that sort of distance the fly will be dragging enough for the fish to see, even if I can’t. That said, I’m very fond of a couple of rods I built myself from Sage reject blanks at fifty bucks apiece. L — Lazarus Cooke

Response:

<snip Deal with it, luser… /daytripper (who still doesn’t suffer newbie fools very well at all)

I dunno, Dave. I think you showed amazing restraint. I thought his indignant reply to your post would *really* set you off!  :) Tim

Response:

Oh, blow it out your ample arse, newbie. Someone posts an obvious troll ("duckin’ and runnin’", wasn’t it?) and you expect RESPECT for that act? /daytripper (who still doesn’t suffer newbie fools very well at all)

Well, at least he didn’t ask what everyone’s favorite "social lubricant" was…under the name of "Trixie ‘Biguns’ LaBoom"…from Dripping Springs, Texas… TC, R "standing tall and taunting…."

Response:

The Hexagraph range.  They combine all the desirable attributes of a good fishing rod, without the disadvantages.( excepting the relatively high price).

fascinated by this, mike. Although I fish for salmon with B&W, this is the first good word I’ve heard about the hexagraph range. I’m shocked, btw, to learn that you’re even younger than I am. Ah those youthful days! Lazarus — Lazarus Cooke

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Hexagraph range.  They combine all the desirable attributes of a good fishing rod, without the disadvantages.( excepting the relatively high price). fascinated by this, mike. Although I fish for salmon with B&W, this is the first good word I’ve heard about the hexagraph range. I’m shocked, btw, to learn that you’re even younger than I am. Ah those youthful days! Lazarus — Lazarus Cooke

I know some of the rods from Bruce and Walker were pretty awful, in fact I cast a few.  This I feel was due to many of them having the wrong design characteristics. I did  not handle them all, and none of the salmon rods, so my comments are rather general in nature, and should not be construed as a general condemnation of the B&W rods. The first carbon fibre rods I handled, were also pretty lousy, as they were obvious attempts to duplicate cane actions. Carbon fibre does not possess many of the limitations of cane, and it seems pretty pointless to duplicate cane rods in this manner. It is in any case impossible to even duplicate cane accurately, unless you also consider the weight, which contributes to the action.  Saying that an ultra-light carbon fibre rod has the same "action" as cane is absolute nonsense, it can not have the same action, it simply does not possess sufficient mass. Notwithstanding its limitations, cane also has advantages. One of these is the "solid" construction. This contributes weight of course, but also gives the rod capabilities which an ultra-light tubular carbon fibre rod simply does not have. You may need to apply so much power to an ultra-light rod, to get it to perform at all, that it becomes infinitely more tiring to use, than a rod which is heavier to start with. One reason why many are now using fibreglass rods again. If these are relatively short, there is no noticeable disadvantage due to excess weight, in fact it is a positive advantage when casting. They are not as troublesome to care for as cane, and they are not as easily damaged either. Also, the "transition" point of a solid rod, the point before which a rod is capable of loading itself, because of its own mass, is much more pronounced, and much more useful for close range work with light lines. Some tubular rods are impossible to cast properly at short range, because one can not move them fast enough to load them. This also considerably reduces the delicacy with which one is able to cast. This, which I consider to be probably the single most important characteristic of a cane rod, can be not only duplicated, but enhanced, using the solid "hexagraph" construction. The resulting blank is perfectly straight, can not warp, is extremely robust, and more or less invulnerable to weather or any other similar damage. It will not take a set, it will cast in a perfectly straight line, without "wobbling", it has no pronounced "spine", ( it has none at all), the deformation common in tubular rods under stress does not take place, it will cast a wide range of weights easily,  etc etc etc. For a long time, it was my ambition to build such a rod, and make the materials and processes available to the home builder. Unfortunately I never realised it. The closest I ever got was building a hexagonal rod tip using fibre glass.  It took me a long time to make it, and the results, although encouraging, did not really warrant the amount of time involved. I am sure that if I could have used carbon fibre, that they would have been much better. I have read a great deal about the hexagraphs, and I have handled quite a few. For quite a while I snapped up all the second hand ones I could get hold of, as far as I could afford them, and I even bought three new ones. Incidentally the only "new" rods I have ever bought in my entire life, which were not either damaged, or heavily discounted in the first place. If I ever have the wherewithal, I would throw all the rods I own away, ( even the "good" ones), and buy myself a range of the new Hexagraphs. I think they are just about the ultimate fishing tool, at this particular point in time. As I have also said before, these rods are "fishing" tools, not "casting" tools. If you want a cannon, then get a super fast Sage or Loomis etc.  If you want pleasurable tireless fishing on rivers and streams, get either a good cane, ( not my preference, too much trouble,, and too expensive anyway), or a Hexagraph. TL MC

Response:

<yawn So sorry my posts don’t amuse you, oh great and powerful Caesar. Please don’t feed me to the lions!  I’ll try harder to please you next time, I promise. Do you treat all strangers with such disrespect?  I guess it’s pretty easy when you have a screen name to hide behind. Pete Greenwood

Oh, blow it out your ample arse, newbie. Someone posts an obvious troll ("duckin’ and runnin’", wasn’t it?) and you expect RESPECT for that act? Here’s what you earned so far: one FOAD on your permanent record. My "screen name" has been here for years and years, and the person behind it is known to far more of the denizens than yours shall ever be. Deal with it, luser… /daytripper (who still doesn’t suffer newbie fools very well at all)

Response:

A couple fun questions for the group to chew on… What is the Holy Grail of flyrods?  Be specific.  Pick a single identifiable rod that you feel has more historical significance than any other.  Explain. What is the Rolls Royce of flyrods?  Again, be specific.  Pick a single rod (or line of rods)that you feel represents the pinnacle of the rod building craft.  Explain. Ducking and covering… Pete Greenwood

Response:

[snipped] <yawn

Response:

how about yawning us an answer, eh mr. grey matter?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snipped] <yawn

Response:

<yawn

So sorry my posts don’t amuse you, oh great and powerful Caesar. Please don’t feed me to the lions!  I’ll try harder to please you next time, I promise. Do you treat all strangers with such disrespect?  I guess it’s pretty easy when you have a screen name to hide behind. Pete Greenwood

Response:

A couple fun questions for the group to chew on… What is the Holy Grail of flyrods?  Be specific.  Pick a single identifiable rod that you feel has more historical significance than any other.  Explain.

The Leonard used by G.E.M. Skues.  It was more than a little responsible for some of his excellent writings and musings. What is the Rolls Royce of flyrods?  Again, be specific.  Pick a single rod (or line of rods)that you feel represents the pinnacle of the rod building craft.  Explain.

The Hexagraph range.  They combine all the desirable attributes of a good fishing rod, without the disadvantages.( excepting the relatively high price). Ducking and covering… Pete Greenwood

Casting and mending…. TL MC

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Question:

Mike Connor writes: "Waiter, there is a fly in my soup". "Is it black sir ?". "No".  "Oh good, then you wont need the rubber bands".

ROFL.  Woke up the dog!  Best esoterica and it immediately goes into the roff hall of shame.  Thanks, Mike. Dave LaCourse "We can’t change the winds, but….. we can adjust our sails!!"

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Waldo writes: Ignore all of the advice you have heard here.  I live in Ontario, the black fly capital of the world.  Don’t wash for 5 days then go fishing – nothing will bite you – promise.  Taste your skin after five days without soap and water – tastes bitter – tastes that way to the bugs too.  Our skin has a natural repellent but we keep washing it off. And I’m serious – worked for me in the North West Territories.  Five days in the bush and about half a dozen bites.  Ten minutes in Yellowknife after a shower and I swear every f*****g bug within half a mile had taken a chunk. Peter damn, no wonder mark looked green every mornin down in almond waldo

Yeah, and HE was immune from all the flying biters too.  Of course, this explains a lot about Peter’s truck… Dave LaCourse "We can’t change the winds, but….. we can adjust our sails!!"

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Blackflies are part of the northwoods experience and an indicator of the right time to go fishing: i.e., the thicker the flies (usually) the better the fishing. Deep-Woods Off (40 percent DEET) will keep them more or less at bay and do so about as well as the 100-percent DEET products like Repel or Ben’s, with less damage to you and your equipment. Here in Maine we pretty much slather it on all day in fly season, which for us lasts from around the last of May until mid-July in the Penobscot drainage. As you can see, avoiding fly season means avoiding fishing season. By time the flies are gone, so is the runoff water and many of the trout, at least the accessible ones. Some folks wear bug jackets with gloves, and these work pretty well with some restriction in mobility and vision; you can’t really follow your fly very well through a headnet. The better bug jackets are those made of tightly woven cotton with mesh panels at the front of the hood and under the arms for ventilation. The all-mesh jackets tear up pretty quickly in the puckerbrush and they don’t even slow mosquitoes down, as they can drill right through the mesh wherever it touches you. The secret to dealing with blackflies is not in eliminating the pain of their bites but in not minding the pain of their bites. After a while you get used to it. If you smoke, keep a cheap cigar or reeky pipe tobacco going as a smudge pot; after a while you’ll hardly notice the little buggers. JRB

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning to do some fishing in the central and northern Adirondacks this summer and am trying to get up there when the dreaded black flies aren’t. Anyone have any experience with this little monster? If I were there, say, end of June, would I be slaughtered? Thanks Dave

Response:

Hell, if THAT works, then smokin’ a blunt will work even better. /daytripper (I mean, if *numb* is what you want…)

Works on moose apparently. Peter email is spam blocked – remove first ’s’

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Long sleeve shirts AND rubber bands around wrists. I recommend a head net also if you absolutely must go into the northwoods during blackfly season. I do not. I don’t go after late May or before late August. Not the Adirondacks but northern Ontario. — Ken Fortenberry What a wussy flatlander you are.  <g Best fishing is during black fly season. Dave L.

What’s a black fly? Peter (snicker) email is spam blocked – remove first ’s’

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I’m planning to do some fishing in the central and northern Adirondacks this summer and am trying to get up there when the dreaded black flies aren’t.   Anyone have any experience with this little monster?   If I were there, say, end of June, would I be slaughtered? Thanks Dave

Ignore all of the advice you have heard here.  I live in Ontario, the black fly capital of the world.  Don’t wash for 5 days then go fishing – nothing will bite you – promise.  Taste your skin after five days without soap and water – tastes bitter – tastes that way to the bugs too.  Our skin has a natural repellent but we keep washing it off. And I’m serious – worked for me in the North West Territories.  Five days in the bush and about half a dozen bites.  Ten minutes in Yellowknife after a shower and I swear every f*****g bug within half a mile had taken a chunk. Peter email is spam blocked – remove first ’s’

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"Waiter, there is a fly in my soup". "Is it black sir ?". "No".  "Oh good, then you wont need the rubber bands". TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Ignore all of the advice you have heard here.  I live in Ontario, the black fly capital of the world.  Don’t wash for 5 days then go fishing – nothing will bite you – promise.  Taste your skin after five days without soap and water – tastes bitter – tastes that way to the bugs too.  Our skin has a natural repellent but we keep washing it off. And I’m serious – worked for me in the North West Territories.  Five days in the bush and about half a dozen bites.  Ten minutes in Yellowknife after a shower and I swear every f*****g bug within half a mile had taken a chunk. Peter

damn, no wonder mark looked green every mornin down in almond waldo

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I grew up in the area you are thinking of hitting this summer. Usually in July, the biggest pain in the butt isn’t the blackflies, but the horseflies and deerflies. One of these things is worse than a 1000 blackflies when it comes to the bite. I find that if you use deep woods cutter, they leave you alone. If you eat a banana, you will not make it more than 10 feet into the woods before you are chewed to bits. The blackflies will usually be out that time of year in the earlier dusk, then it’s the mosquitos. The last couple of years they haven’t been all that bad. Good luck up there. Any questions on where to go in the area between Watertown and Lake Placid, let me know. I may even be able to set you up with a free guide of the area, or I may be in the area then myself. Just drop a line. Gordo The worst day on the water beats the best day in the office. Gordo

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 deer flies have a tendency to land of the back of your head.  As stupid as this idea sounds, it really works.  I have come in after a day of fishing to find as many as twenty deer flies stuck on the back of my hat.

    why not demonstrate your altruistic nature and send a few patches to petah charles for application to his crotch somewhere around the third day out… wayno

Response:

I grew up in the area you are thinking of hitting this summer. Usually in July, the biggest pain in the butt isn’t the blackflies, but the horseflies and deerflies. One of these things is worse than a 1000 blackflies when it comes to the bite. I find that if you use deep woods cutter, they leave you alone. If you eat a banana, you will not make it more than 10 feet into the woods before you are chewed to bits.

I am the pate de foie gras of the biting insect world, the lobster thermidor, the hollandaise sauce.  There is nothing in this world which will dissuade them from sampling me if the opportunity presents itself.  Black flies, mosquitos, deer flies, chiggers, horse flies, no-see-ums, and ticks will drink a pool of DEET if they think I am at the bottom of the pool.  Sadly, it seems to be a matter of individual body chemistry.  It makes no difference whether I am sterilized or wallowing in eight days of filth.  Copious clouds of cigarette smoke annoy them but will not keep them from biting. Thus far, deer flies are the only biting insects for which I have found an effective deterrent, and this is so bizarre that most people will probably not believe it.  I didn’t myself until I actually tried it.  Tred-Not deerfly patches are pieces of fly paper with a sticky side that is attached to the back of your hat, and a VERY sticky side that traps flies when they land on it.  For reasons unknown to me, deer flies have a tendency to land of the back of your head.  As stupid as this idea sounds, it really works.  I have come in after a day of fishing to find as many as twenty deer flies stuck on the back of my hat.  These things are made by a company called Detex in Michigan.  I know they have a web site but I’ve lost the address.  However they are available at the following URL: http://www.biconet.com/traps/deerflyPatch.html

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Yes, You will be feeding the little buggers. Some tips: rubber bands around wrists. Rubber bands around wrists??? Inquiring minds want to know.      - Ken

the rubber bands cut off all circulation, making the hands numb and unable to feel any bites <G.   chris

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I’m planning to do some fishing in the central and northern Adirondacks this summer and am trying to get up there when the dreaded black flies aren’t. Anyone have any experience with this little monster? If I were there, say, end of June, would I be slaughtered? Thanks Dave

I spent a month one day in northern NH because of the black flies.  I have found that they peak early, usually in late May, early June.  There may be some around in late June, but if you use deet, they will stay away.  Puffing on a cigar will help, just puff away like your Clinton.  <g When I say "deet", I mean the 100% stuff.  It is baaaaad stuff, but it will keep them away.  Use in on your clothes, especially your hat, and use normal bug juice with a high concentrate of deet on exposed areas.  Do not expose your fly line or your fly rod to deet. I fish Labrador the 1st week in July each year, and black flies and mosquitos are as bad as anywhere.  Dress with long sleeves (a sweat shirt is good), or, a cotton turtle neck jersey is even better — it will protect your arms AND neck.  Wear fingerless gloves, and put them on after you have used the bug juice. Wear a hat and spray it well with deet.  I have found that bug jackets are inaffective with black flies.  They pile up on the front and after awhile, you can not see.  <g  But you *are* water proof.  d;0) Dave LaCourse "We can’t change the winds, but….. we can adjust our sails!!"

Response:

Long sleeve shirts AND rubber bands around wrists. I recommend a head net also if you absolutely must go into the northwoods during blackfly season. I do not. I don’t go after late May or before late August. Not the Adirondacks but northern Ontario. — Ken Fortenberry

What a wussy flatlander you are.  <g Best fishing is during black fly season. Dave L.      —–  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free Usenet News via the Web  —–      —–  http://newsone.net/ —  Discussions on every subject. —–    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts

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DJ     Generally speaking, blackflies in areas that far North have already peaked and are more likely to be just a mild nuisance in the evening. I take my vacation 4th of July week here in Maine, partly because the worst of the blackflies is past, and partly because there’s still good surface activity on our trout ponds. Late June should be bearable in that regard.

Last week in June is well into the decline of blackflies in the Adirondacks–in a normal year.  For the last couple summers it’s been harder to predict them, but everybody I know said they were not as bad as usual.  In 1997 I hiked across the whole park in late June, and the blackflies were barely around.  That was almost a bummer, because after a dozen mosquito bites, one gets nostalgic for a neckfull of blackfly welts. DS

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Couple of things no one has mentioned black flies tend to bit more around areas that have a pulse wrists behind the ears ankles If you get Deet on nylon it’s shot it turns into sticky mess that doesn’t dry Rub dirt on your hands after putting on your bug spray Pick up some afterbite to take the sting away they come in containers a little bigger than a pen. Bring lots of friends they might find them more delicious

Response:

It keeps your sleeve ends closed !  Works on trousers too. Strip of Velcro is better, does not cut off the circulation. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, You will be feeding the little buggers. Some tips: rubber bands around wrists. Rubber bands around wrists??? Inquiring minds want to know.      - Ken — "That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter. I *WOULD*  vote to make C&R illegal." – Tim Walker "Ethical conduct is purely a personal thing, and the only  arbiter of personal ethics is your own conscience."  - Mike Connor

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, You will be feeding the little buggers. Some tips: rubber bands around wrists. Rubber bands around wrists??? Inquiring minds want to know.      - Ken the rubber bands cut off all circulation, making the hands numb and unable to feel any bites <G.   chris

Hell, if THAT works, then smokin’ a blunt will work even better. /daytripper (I mean, if *numb* is what you want…)

Response:

I’m planning to do some fishing in the central and northern Adirondacks this summer and am trying to get up there when the dreaded black flies aren’t.   Anyone have any experience with this little monster?   If I were there, say, end of June, would I be slaughtered? Thanks Dave

Response:

The worst day I ever had with black flies was in 1975 in Franklin Landing were Great Bear River flows out of Great Bear Lake. There was no breeze to keep the flies down. Everywhere you looked you saw little black dots the white walls of the ship were black with flies one of the deckhands had to be taken by the hand to his room as his eyes had swollen shut from black fly bites. I put two sweaters on to try and add more distance between me and the flies they would burrow through the wool and still bite. I think I went through two or three cans of bug spray.I’ve been all over the North and that was hellish day. If it’s a dead calm day I would think twice about a hike through the bush.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning to do some fishing in the central and northern Adirondacks this summer and am trying to get up there when the dreaded black flies aren’t. Anyone have any experience with this little monster? If I were there, say, end of June, would I be slaughtered? Thanks Dave

Response:

DJ     Generally speaking, blackflies in areas that far North have already peaked and are more likely to be just a mild nuisance in the evening. I take my vacation 4th of July week here in Maine, partly because the worst of the blackflies is past, and partly because there’s still good surface activity on our trout ponds. Late June should be bearable in that regard.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning to do some fishing in the central and northern Adirondacks this summer and am trying to get up there when the dreaded black flies aren’t. Anyone have any experience with this little monster? If I were there, say, end of June, would I be slaughtered? Thanks Dave

Response:

Yes, You will be feeding the little buggers. Some tips: don’t wear anything blue. don’t use anything scented (soaps, etc) rubber bands around wrists. Where abouts are you planning on fishing. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning to do some fishing in the central and northern Adirondacks this summer and am trying to get up there when the dreaded black flies aren’t. Anyone have any experience with this little monster? If I were there, say, end of June, would I be slaughtered? Thanks Dave

Response:

Yes, You will be feeding the little buggers. Some tips: rubber bands around wrists.

Rubber bands around wrists??? Inquiring minds want to know.      - Ken — "That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter. I *WOULD*  vote to make C&R illegal." – Tim Walker "Ethical conduct is purely a personal thing, and the only  arbiter of personal ethics is your own conscience."  - Mike Connor

Response:

Rubber bands around wrists??? Inquiring minds want to know.

Long sleeve shirts AND rubber bands around wrists. I recommend a head net also if you absolutely must go into the northwoods during blackfly season. I do not. I don’t go after late May or before late August. Not the Adirondacks but northern Ontario. — Ken Fortenberry

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Dave writes-re: Blackflies I’m planning to do some fishing in the central and northern Adirondacks this summer and am trying to get up there when the dreaded black flies aren’t.   Anyone have any experience with this little monster?   If I were there, say, end of June, would I be slaughtered?

Yes. Prepare yourself with a pure-DEET type repellant, plus cigars and cigarettes keep them back a few feet. Despite all efforts, if out for a days fishing, expect to be bitten heavily. It’s worth noting, some of my best fishing for trout, both in PA and New England have been when blackflies were fierce….they are aquatic hatches as well.                           Tom Littleton

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Question:

Reminds me of another local "snack" I came across a few years back touring the Canadian Maritimes.   It was basically (as I understand it) seaweed harvested off rocks at low tide & dried.   It smelled like low tide.   It was salty and strangely tasty though.   The name escapes me. Joe F.

        i aint gonna do it.  i thought about it, but i aint gonna do it. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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i aint gonna do it.  i thought about it, but i aint gonna do it.

LOL.   Best laugh I’ve had from someone *not* telling a joke. Upon reading my inadvertant straight line, I must commend your admirable restraint. Joe F.

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Me to, but licketysplit I just got hold of myself and stopped. Dave

Response:

Joe It’s called Dulse and my impression is that it is sold more to tourists than locals! I was on Grand Manan island last summer (Canada, just N of Maine)and they claim to be the Dulse capital of the world (I get the distinct impression that it is a very small world!). In my home country of Wales we eat Laverbread which is basically a sea lettuce sort of seaweed that is normally pan fried with bacon. I love it, but my English wife hates it.  OTH we both find Dulse a bit dry, salty and strong, but with a beer – now you’re talking! David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – guess it’s like smoked oysters, either you like em or you don’t! Reminds me of another local "snack" I came across a few years back touring the Canadian Maritimes.   It was basically (as I understand it) seaweed harvested off rocks at low tide & dried.   It smelled like low tide.   It was salty and strangely tasty though.   The name escapes me. Joe F.

Response:

Joe,    You reminded me of a time when I was taking my mother to dinner at Fisherman’s Wharf.  We had just gotten off the cable car and were walking down to the restaurant when we got a whiff of the bay.  Mom said "Whew, smells like the ocean" then paused and in a quieter tone said, "farted".  I almost rolled the rest of the way down the hill. Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Reminds me of another local "snack" I came across a few years back touring the Canadian Maritimes.   It was basically (as I understand it) seaweed harvested off rocks at low tide & dried.   It smelled like low tide.   It was salty and strangely tasty though.   The name escapes me. Joe F.

Response:

…it is a very small world!

Easy for you to say Davie, you never had to paint it! Wolfgang <who couldn’t care less about context under the circumstances

Response:

… A well stocked icebox full of white fleshed California peaches, oversized Concord grapes and plenty of squid jerky kept me happy in spite of the slow fishing.

Squid jerky ? Sounds fascinating, please expound. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 1 – Tar Heels 0

Response:

Nice report Mu.  I’m starting to think that unless we get some rain here in Michigan, we aren’t going to have any water left in our streams. Glad you could make the most of it while out there!  Did you say squied jerkey?? Jeff Boks Fly Fishing~~~~~Just Do It

Response:

Thursday morning I left home around 5AM to catch a plane to Los Angeles. Besides a quick lunch in the city, that was the last time I would set foot in LA until my return to the airport this morning.  Most of the extended Labor Day vacation was spent in Ventura and Santa Barbara counties which lie northwest of Los Angeles. First off, the food was amazing. Quality, variety and freshness which is completely unavailable where I live (it also didn’t hurt that my hosts were magicians in the kitchen who could whip up gourmet meals upn a whim).   Went up to Lake Cachuma and rented a little motorboat.  This is stocked trout lake with plenty of bass and panfish.  I didn’t expect any trout since it’s still technically summer.  The water was very choppy and all had I brought with me was 4 wt travel rod which was rendered completely useless by the constant gusting wind.  I put the rod away and became a full time boatsman at the mercy of the whims of a four year old niece. Next day was spent searching the Los Padres National Forest for fishable water.  My friend told me that many streams in this part of California typically have little or no flow by the time July rolls around. Nevertheless, a good map, a lovely lady and a well muscled vehicle were sufficient incentive to explore quite a bit of the nearby highlands.  I did find one stream that had enough flowing water to hold fish.  We bounced around from boulder to boulder and scaled craggy rocks to safely negotiate the hike along and through the creek.  It was more of a hiking trip with a few incidental pokes of my leader into some of the likely looking holes.  I only had three solid strikes and landed one plump rainbow trout on a prince nymph out of the deepest hole.   The last day was spent surf casting with "bloodworms" for ocean perch near Vandenberg Air Force base.  My girlfriend’s dad told me these were his secret baits that a supplier flies in daily from the east coast.  They weren’t the bloodworms I was used to from childhood flounder trips on the Long Island Sound, the ones with the big black pincers that come out of the sphincter on one end when you squeezed them.  These were what we used to call sandworms.  I caught one surf perch on a worm and later caught one on a sand flea that had accidentally impaled itself on my hook as my rig was tumbling in the waves.  Neither fish were worth keeping for the grill so I let them go.  The old fella caught nothing but at least he wasn’t doubled over in sea-sickened vomit position like the last time we went fishing together.  A well stocked icebox full of white fleshed California peaches, oversized Concord grapes and plenty of squid jerky kept me happy in spite of the slow fishing.  On the way home we stopped at the Channel Islands Harbor in a port town called Oxnard for some fresh dungeness crab, no utensils necessary. This wasn’t a hard core fishing weekend but a tour of some of the hills and beaches of the central California coast.  All streams, beaches, roads, turnouts, restaurants and vineyards were carefully logged in my mind for the inevitable return visit. Mu

Response:

Question:

For much of the past decade my family and I have vacationed in North- Central New Mexico (Santa Fe/Taos area). … Historically they’ve been wonderful, since few people fished them.  But that seems to have changed…

I’ll confess to being part of the problem. We were in Taos for a week last October and found it a wonderful vacation spot both for me and my flyfishing and Kristine and her shopping/photography. I was able to find solitude, in October, the further I got from the "Enchanted Circle", FWIW. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

For much of the past decade my family and I have vacationed in North- Central New Mexico (Santa Fe/Taos area).  It always seemed to offer something for everyone…culture and restaurants for my wife, fishing and hiking for me.  I returned last week after an absence of 3 years and couldn’t believe the increase in fishing pressure and resulting reduction in fishing quality. Exhibit 1 — an small, alpine tailwater (maybe 60 cfm)with a nice population of cuts.  Catch and release.  Fished it three years ago, in the prime water on a WEEKEND, and saw one other rod all day.  Last week, on a Tuesday, had to scramble to find a stretch to fish.  At least 10 other rods on a 1.5 mile stretch. Exhibit 2 — a tiny mountain stream, 2 hour drive from anywhere. Walked in and got no hits.  Started moving quickly, and eventually ran into a fisherman.  I’d been fishing in his wake.  Walked another half mile, same problem.  Eventually had to drive a mile downstream, and walk another mile to get onto virgin water, then had a reasonable time. Unlike streams in places like Montana (or even the San Juan), the streams in North-Central NM are generally so small that they can’t support very much pressure.  Historically they’ve been wonderful, since few people fished them.  But that seems to have changed… Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Question:

To jfraser, about the first question regarding losing flies from snagging-  you were right-its part of the sport.  Nymphs, to be most effective have to be fished bouncing on the bottom.  I do not know how deep the water where you fish at is but one thing I do is use a floating line and run my leader length the same depth as the stream.  I then add split shots to the leader according to the speed of the current just until I feel my nymph just touching the bottom. The floating line helps me control my drift better and I can dectect strikes more often. For casting, I always believed in a quartering cast upstream and a drag free float.  On streamers/wet flies at the end of the drift let you fly arc around. a lot of strikes will occur as you fly comes around

Response:

I’d like to thank you and everybody else who is sending me feedback and tips. You ROFF gang are a real friendly bunch! Best Regards, Jeremy Fraser —

Yeah, and if you want this bunch to stay friendly Jeremy, never start a C&R/C&K thread!  ;-) Frank Church USAF Retired Elkhart, IN

Response:

I have just started to learn a few things about trout fly fishing, but there are a couple of questions I haven’t found the answers to in any books or in the ROFF FAQ. Can anybody help me answer these? 1) I’m losing piles of flies casting Type II sinking tip into moving water. I tend to lose them by snagging and I’m wondering if this is just part of the sport or if I’m doing something wrong…? Can I prevent bottom snags by using strike indicators, shorter leaders, slower sink tip fly lines, a combination of the three or by doing something else? Don’t I want to get egg, leech, etc. patterns down on the bottom of rivers below the current? 2) I’ve read so much about casting and 10 to 2, 11 to 1, etc. and this has all been useful (I’m still trying to tame out a nasty tailing loop). I even went to a casting clinic — which was very helpful in getting me thinking about good casting technique. The puzzling thing to me, which hasn’t been well described to me yet, is the retrieve. I am predominantly wanting to fish rivers so I assume this plays a part in retrieving. I also assume that different patterns (wet/dry, terrestrial/non-terrestrial, leech/minnow) call for different retrieve strategies. To me this really means thinking about how your retrieve will sucker the fish into believing your fly is the real thing, therefore I wouldn’t think it would make much sense to retrieve an egg pattern fly with much style because the fly’s "action" would be in the free float of the eggs in the current. I’m sure the retrieve is important in still water; however, is it worth giving much thought to it in moving water or should I just be focusing on getting my fly in the right place in/on the current for the duration of it’s "drag-free" float? Any comments/assistance would be appreciated! Thanks in advance, Jeremy Fraser

Response:

1) I’m losing piles of flies casting Type II sinking tip into moving water. I tend to lose them by snagging and I’m wondering if this is just part of the sport or if I’m doing something wrong…?

Snagging flies is to some extent just the price of entry.  But, with experience, I find myself losing fewer flies than I used to for two reasons: 1.  Some casts I might have made in the past, I realize now will simply end up with a snag and no fish.  So I don’t cast. 2.  I’m a lot better at unsnagging a snagged fly.  Generally if you walk upstream of your fly, and pull back on the line in the opposite direction it entered the snag, perhaps extending your rod tip to the center of the stream, it will come free without a problem.  If it still doesn’t come out, walk further upstream, and try again.  It’s very rare that I have to break off a fly. Today probably lose one fly when before I would have lost 5 or 6.  Suspect your averages will improve too.  is it worth giving much thought to it in moving water or should I just be focusing on getting my fly in the right place in/on the current for the duration of it’s "drag-free" float?

99%+ of the time with nymphs or terrestials, what you want is a drag free float.  Achieving this is what much of becoming a good fisherman is about, and is something I’m still learning.  The techniques of mending, and special casts such as a reach or curved cast, or slack line casts, are very powerful. A lot of what I learned, I was exposed to by friends or guides, then had to learn by myself on the water.  If you’re having trouble keeping a drag free float in a situation, it pays to experiment with different mends or casts until you get it right (even if the fish are gone). Doug Swisher’s advanced casting video has a great introduction to casts which can help you in tricky situations (e.g. a reach cast).  And John Judy has written a book on slack line technique which is interesting, if a bit esoteric. Michael

Response:

1) I’m losing piles of flies casting Type II sinking tip into moving

water. I’m not sure why you are using sinking line.  Unless you are fishing really deep runs consistently (or perhaps fishing streamers??), you should be using floating line.  Your leader is all that should be sinking. An important key to nymph fishing is proper depth.  You should use an indicator that’s adjusted so that your fly moves with the current but occasionally gets delayed by riverbed obstacles.  If you are constantly hanging up or catching moss on your fly, move your indicator closer to your fly, if aren’t getting any false "hits" as you drift, you’re too far off the bottom.  The trick is to have your fly or flies tumbling around in the eddy-like turbulent layer of water produced by the interaction of the current with the riverbottom structure.  That’s where the fish spend a lot of time feeding.  Use an indicator that’s easy to move up and down your line so that you will be encouraged to change it as you move to new spots on the stream.  Adjusting depth has produced more strikes for me (in a drift zone I’ve already fished unsuccessfully) than any other change (such as change of weight or fly type). Proper weighting is also a key factor.  If you have the right amount of weight.  When you cast 1/4 up stream, the ideal is to have your flies "in the zone" as they pass the point straight out from you, cross-current.  Too much weight and you’ll definitely be getting stuck a lot on the bottom. Too little and you won’t be spending much time "in the zone" for each drift.  Personally, I find that if I must use more weight, I get hung up less if I use a couple of small split shot together rather than a larger shot of equivalent weight. The advice about walking up stream to pull the fly out of the snag the way it went in is a really good one.  I’ve saved many a fly this way. 2) … The puzzling thing to me, which hasn’t been well described to me yet, is the retrieve….

For 95% of dry fly fishing, only dead drift will generate strikes.  Some caddis flies do skid along the surface and there are some techniques for imparting action that is natural.   The most important part about the retrieve in dry fly fishing is not to make a big splash or otherwise disturb the water with your initial backcast.  Start your back cast with a brief, slow pull to get the fly moving (especially if it has sunk below the surface) and then use full energy after it’s moving.  Try doing it the wrong way a few times, then the right way.  You’ll see a big difference in the amount of disturbance created as you backcast. When nymphing, you will generate some strikes on the retrieve simply because the pause between each pull causes an alteration in the flies movement that can mimic prey in trouble.  Fish sometimes key on this and you get strikes. Retrieve technique is most important when streamer fishing, but I do not do that much, so I can’t say much about it. Good luck. —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

Dear Rookie,      I’ve found that using floating line with a stike intcator and a small bead head or tiny weight helps to prevent losing all the flys.  I like to use what I call a "pendalum" approach to tying up my flies and weight.  First you take a separate piece of tippet about three to six inches long and tie it to your tippet line (or leader) about two to three inches form the bottom of your line.  Then you put your weight(what ever size you feel is nessicery) on the shorter of the two ends (usually the orriginal line).  Next you tie your choice of fly to the other piece of line and you are ready to go.  The theory is that when the wieght gets hung up on the bottom, it will just slide off and your fly will remain attached.  Granted you will have to replace the wieght, but it’s much more cost efficient than replacing flies.  I also recomend using a strike indicator.  Good luck, and I hope that my description made sence. Aaron

Response:

I think you’re right about casting sinking tip. I’m going to try casting the floating line I’ve got and see if I have better results. I’ll also try sticking a strike indicator on and see if that helps me at all. I’d like to thank you and everybody else who is sending me feedback and tips. You ROFF gang are a real friendly bunch! Best Regards, Jeremy Fraser — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1) I’m losing piles of flies casting Type II sinking tip into moving water. I’m not sure why you are using sinking line.  Unless you are fishing really deep runs consistently (or perhaps fishing streamers??), you should be using floating line.  Your leader is all that should be sinking. An important key to nymph fishing is proper depth.  You should use an indicator that’s adjusted so that your fly moves with the current but occasionally gets delayed by riverbed obstacles.  If you are constantly hanging up or catching moss on your fly, move your indicator closer to your fly, if aren’t getting any false "hits" as you drift, you’re too far off the bottom.  The trick is to have your fly or flies tumbling around in the eddy-like turbulent layer of water produced by the interaction of the current with the riverbottom structure.  That’s where the fish spend a lot of time feeding.  Use an indicator that’s easy to move up and down your line so that you will be encouraged to change it as you move to new spots on the stream.  Adjusting depth has produced more strikes for me (in a drift zone I’ve already fished unsuccessfully) than any other change (such as change of weight or fly type). Proper weighting is also a key factor.  If you have the right amount of weight.  When you cast 1/4 up stream, the ideal is to have your flies "in the zone" as they pass the point straight out from you, cross-current.  Too much weight and you’ll definitely be getting stuck a lot on the bottom. Too little and you won’t be spending much time "in the zone" for each drift.  Personally, I find that if I must use more weight, I get hung up less if I use a couple of small split shot together rather than a larger shot of equivalent weight. The advice about walking up stream to pull the fly out of the snag the way it went in is a really good one.  I’ve saved many a fly this way. 2) … The puzzling thing to me, which hasn’t been well described to me yet, is the retrieve…. For 95% of dry fly fishing, only dead drift will generate strikes.  Some caddis flies do skid along the surface and there are some techniques for imparting action that is natural. The most important part about the retrieve in dry fly fishing is not to make a big splash or otherwise disturb the water with your initial backcast.  Start your back cast with a brief, slow pull to get the fly moving (especially if it has sunk below the surface) and then use full energy after it’s moving.  Try doing it the wrong way a few times, then the right way.  You’ll see a big difference in the amount of disturbance created as you backcast. When nymphing, you will generate some strikes on the retrieve simply because the pause between each pull causes an alteration in the flies movement that can mimic prey in trouble.  Fish sometimes key on this and you get strikes. Retrieve technique is most important when streamer fishing, but I do not do that much, so I can’t say much about it. Good luck. —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

Question:

I am planning couple of days ffishing in Texas (anywhere between Matagorda and Brownsville) in middle February.  Any suggestions on guides specializing in flyfishing and wading as well as locations greatly appreciated. Thanks, Marek

Response:

I am planning couple of days ffishing in Texas (anywhere between Matagorda and Brownsville) in middle February.  Any suggestions on guides specializing in flyfishing and wading as well as locations greatly appreciated. Thanks, Marek

 Hello Marek, I spent a considerable amount of time in Laguna Madre.  I sea-kayaked from Corpu Christi down to Mexico.  I found the area around Port Mansfield to be fairly productive.  It is the off-season there so the guides will be looking for people to take out.  There is nothing in the town except one restaurant.  It is also a hotel.  On the way into town though, you will pass a hotel that is large.  I am not sure of the name.  The gentleman that runs this hotel is also a guide.  Very nice accomadations and very nice people.  I am sorry that I am so vague but if you happen upon this place, you will realize how small it is.  About 200 winter residents and about 6000 in the summer. I fished wherever I saw tailing reds. This was often.  Throughout the whole trip. Enjoy, Paul Johnson,

Response:

Eric Glass, Gibb Little and Skipper Ray all will take you fishing in the South Padre, Port Isabel area.  I’ve fished with Eric.  Keep in mind that the the weather is still a a little touchy in Feb.  We probably will still be getting the occasional norther. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am planning couple of days ffishing in Texas (anywhere between Matagorda and Brownsville) in middle February.  Any suggestions on guides specializing in flyfishing and wading as well as locations greatly appreciated. Thanks, Marek

Response:

Walt Kittleburger guides out of Port Mansfield.  Nobody is hard to find in Mansfield. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am planning couple of days ffishing in Texas (anywhere between Matagorda and Brownsville) in middle February.  Any suggestions on guides specializing in flyfishing and wading as well as locations greatly appreciated. Thanks, Marek  Hello Marek, I spent a considerable amount of time in Laguna Madre.  I sea-kayaked from Corpu Christi down to Mexico.  I found the area around Port Mansfield to be fairly productive.  It is the off-season there so the guides will be looking for people to take out.  There is nothing in the town except one restaurant.  It is also a hotel.  On the way into town though, you will pass a hotel that is large.  I am not sure of the name.  The gentleman that runs this hotel is also a guide.  Very nice accomadations and very nice people.  I am sorry that I am so vague but if you happen upon this place, you will realize how small it is.  About 200 winter residents and about 6000 in the summer. I fished wherever I saw tailing reds. This was often.  Throughout the whole trip. Enjoy, Paul Johnson,

Response:

Question:

<SNIP are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit. I would be real surprised if Montana planted any fish.  Because of the good population of brown trout, which are resistant to WD, they still have fish in the infected rivers.  Besides,wasn’t Montana the first state to figure out that people will travel long distances to catch "wild" fish?  

   I don’t mean to change the subject, but the original question has recently become even more intriguing than when I originally posed it.  The Yellowstone is the last wild river in the lower 48, but that doesn’t seem to be so important now that a few springcreeks have succumbed to what wild rivers naturally do on occasion (flood and change that is).  Stocking wild rivers when the rainbows disappear is similar to damming wild rivers when the largely man-made springcreeks disappear.  They are both justified with tourist dollars.  Of course it remains to be seen what they will actually do on the Yellowstone.  I am a cynic but I hope I am wrong. -al

Response:

<SNIP are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.

I would be real surprised if Montana planted any fish.  Because of the good population of brown trout, which are resistant to WD, they still have fish in the infected rivers.  Besides,wasn’t Montana the first state to figure out that people will travel long distances to catch "wild" fish?   Do you think people would travel long distances to catch hatchery planters??  I can see the ads now: "Come to Big Sky Country to catch our imitation rainbows reared in concrete runways by the thousands and behaviourly modified with regular feedings of Purina Trout Chow (floating variety – a reddish brown color).  The "hot" fly this week (and every week) – either a brown Goddard Caddis with the hackle and antenna removed or a size10 brown beetle.  If the fish aren’t rising just throw out a handful of pea gravel (sounds like PTC hitting the water).  Guaranteed to make them rise (and since your fly is the only thing floating they’ll hit it thinking it’s PTC).  Come on down!"  I guarantee you I wouldn’t and I don’t think very many people would – and they know that.                                         Just my .02                                                 Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I have a few questions about whirling disease I hope someone knowledgeable can answer.  Any realistic estimates on how long it would take a river that has been hit hard by the disease (the Madison for example) to recover naturally without stocking?  Years?  Decades?  Never? Will the parasite die off after a period with no juvenile rainbows, making the river suitable for repopulation?  Can a significant portion of fry survive to sexual maturity, or does reproduction halt completely?  It seems to me that by the time the river recovers to a point that it is suitable for a rainbow population again that the surviving trout, if any, would be too old to spawn.   Let’s suppose that it is only a matter of time before all the wild rainbow fisheries in the west are affected.  While it is awful to imagine, it seems realistic unless we find a way to kill the parasite.  After all, rivers that are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.   I hope this initiates some useful discussion. -al

I am not an expert, but I have read that whirling disease has been around for over 200 years since it was first discovered in Europe.  So our environment has been successfully dealing with it for quiet a while. It can be spread by man and animals, so if fishing were banned, it would still migrate to new streams. I was fortunate enough to talk to a very experinced guide in Montana a few weeks ago.  His opinion on the disease is that its effects are minimal, and that the low count of frey is due to the extended fishing season ( to bring in the tourist bucks) and the trampling of the spawning beds by well intentioned fishermen. H.Payne

Response:

The spring creeks aren’t largely man made…they had allways existed and had fallen into disrepair from years of neglect and cattle grazing…they have been rehabilitated by man…veggitation restored, silt removed, etc…I will be very surprised if Montana increases it’s stocking program…there is no need…it’s so ironic that EVERYONE is SO concerned with whirling disease when the biggest threat to our Montana fisheries remains water quality….stop the Seven-Up Pete mine on the Blackfoot…restore the pre 1994 water quality standards!!!

Response:

These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion…

I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Mitch

Response:

Al,    The discussions I’ve monitored predict that a certain percentage of the population will be resistant to WD.  These fish will reproduce, passing on their resistance.  After a few generations, equilibrium will be restored.  If we leave nature alone, she’ll do what she has done for million of years– repair and improve herself. But then, my boss calls me a stary-eyed optomist! Tight lines, Charley

Jonathan Cook’s response has indicated -and there is evidence from several Eastern and Western states to substantiate this- that the presence of the parasite does not immediately lead to the symptoms of infections, eg skeletal deformations, ‘whirling’, black tail.  Whether or not this means that a resident population has developed an immune response to the parasite is still debatable.  Published reports indicate that there is some antibody response to the presence of the parasite, however this may or may not lead to removal of the parasite by known immune response pathways. The primary reason whirling disease is so devastating is the attack on skelatal material that has not ossified.  So survival/morbidity depends on the presence of the parasite, its apparent mandatory passage through the intermediate host, the Tubifex worm, the release of the infectious stage of the parasite, and attachment to the host fish–all at a time when the fish has not undergone ossification of the site of attack (the spine and some head skeleton regions).  So survival is dependent on the life histories of the parasite, its intermediate host and the main host. All of the fish so far discussed are at risk, although there is a gradation that increases from browns to cutts to rainbows.  Someone rightly pointed out that the primary target for the present are rainbows which are the progeny of planted fish – I believe but am not sure that Montana stopped planting fish in rivers in the late 70’s, but continue to do so in lakes in the state.  I am more concerned on the fate of native, wild fish (eg the cutts) than those that have been moved from other locations (the rainbow and brown). Don

Response:

I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? My guess is that yes, this is a big factor in susceptibility. A high gradient stream doesn’t play good host to the tubifex worm, and is less fertile in general. Thus, the WD spore concentration will be less during the ossification period of the young trout’s skeleton. More trout live, and the overall affect is less. I’d say a good example of this is the Big Thompson. Very little effect.

Or the Roaring Fork ? TimW

Response:

These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion… I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Mitch

One of the stages in the WD parasites’ life is in the tubifex worm. These worms live in the mud on the bottom of a river. A large elevation drop generally means faster water, and no mud accumulation. No mud, no worms, no place for the WD parasite to accumulate. Also faster water means a dead rotting WD infested carcass doesn’t go to the bottom to spread it’s spores. It gets swept away. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion… I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Mitch One of the stages in the WD parasites’ life is in the tubifex worm. These worms live in the mud on the bottom of a river. A large elevation drop generally means faster water, and no mud accumulation. No mud, no worms, no place for the WD parasite to accumulate. Also faster water means a dead rotting WD infested carcass doesn’t go to the bottom to spread it’s spores. It gets swept away.

Does this latter posit a positive argument for catch and kill ? TimW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion… I have heard that rivers with a substantial elevation drop are less susceptible to WD. Can anyone verify this? Thanks, Mitch One of the stages in the WD parasites’ life is in the tubifex worm. These worms live in the mud on the bottom of a river. A large elevation drop generally means faster water, and no mud accumulation. No mud, no worms, no place for the WD parasite to accumulate. Also faster water means a dead rotting WD infested carcass doesn’t go to the bottom to spread it’s spores. It gets swept away. Does this latter posit a positive argument for catch and kill ? TimW

Not really.  ’Cuz the fish killed by WD are fry that you wouldn’t catch anyway.  ’Course, I suppose larger fish could be host to it without being killed by it.  But, taking all the fish out of the system to save the system, somehow, seems short-sighted to me. Tight lines and straight fish, Charley

Response:

. Most hard-hit waters are tailwaters — no runoff, constant temps, and lots of moss and mud for tubifex worms (the other host).

Hi Jon, and now Gas Bubble disease can be added to the list of problems in tailwaters. A recent study on the Colorado River states:         …Trout sampled exhibited higher symptoms of both whirling disease         and gas bubble trauma in stream sections with high saturation levels         than those with lower saturation levels. These results indicate a         combined effect of whirling disease and gas bubble trauma is affecting         young -of-the-year rainbow and brown trout in the study area. regards, Mike

Response:

Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it. Darryl Hayashida

how do you distinguish a hatchery fish from a wild one ? just curious (i’m a strict C&R guy) — phone +303-492-3504       |  Dept. of Chemistry & Biochemistry fax +303-492-5894         |  University of Colorado at Boulder

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I have a few questions about whirling disease I hope someone knowledgeable can answer.  Any realistic estimates on how long it would take a river that has been hit hard by the disease (the Madison for example) to recover naturally without stocking?  Years?  Decades?  Never? Will the parasite die off after a period with no juvenile rainbows, making the river suitable for repopulation?  Can a significant portion of fry survive to sexual maturity, or does reproduction halt completely?  It seems to me that by the time the river recovers to a point that it is suitable for a rainbow population again that the surviving trout, if any, would be too old to spawn.    Are steelhead susceptible?    Let’s suppose that it is only a matter of time before all the wild rainbow fisheries in the west are affected.  While it is awful to imagine, it seems realistic unless we find a way to kill the parasite.  After all, rivers that are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.    I hope this initiates some useful discussion. -al

Al,         The discussions I’ve monitored predict that a certain percentage of the population will be resistant to WD.  These fish will reproduce, passing on their resistance.  After a few generations, equilibrium will be restored.  If we leave nature alone, she’ll do what she has done for million of years– repair and improve herself. But then, my boss calls me a stary-eyed optomist! Tight lines, Charley

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it. Darryl Hayashida how do you distinguish a hatchery fish from a wild one ? just curious (i’m a strict C&R guy) In the area I fish in, a stocker is a 10 to 12 inch rainbow with tattered fins and a dark almost black back.They all look the same, as if they were cranked out by an assembly line. The fins are tattered because they grow up packed into a concrete pen where their fins rub against the walls and each other. The hatchery fish also tend to nip each others fins. Probably out of irritation or maybe lack of anything else to do. Their backs are black because the have no way to get out of the sun and fish skin reacts to strong sunlight just like human skin does – increased melanin, or in other words, a suntan. Darryl Hayashida

Here in Oregon, the hatchery workers clip the adipose fin (the one located on the back behind the main (dorsal?) fin). Andy Clark Albany, OR

Response:

Text deleted… In the end it will be the hatchery raised WD exposed fish that has the best chance of survival and passing on resistance to its offspring. regards, Mike

We are talking about two different animals here. In my disscusions with fishery biologists in the area I fish in, I found out that the hatchery fish have a very low survival rate. On the order of 2 to 3 percent. One of the reasons is that the "catchable" size stocked is 10 to 12 inches. Any fish raised for the better portion of a year on Purina Trout Chow isn’t going to recognize a caddis or mayfly or a nymph as food. All I’m saying is in my area stockers are going to die anyway, so you might as well keep them. This is probably different in your area. Also, the area I fish in has had WD for decades. It still has wild trout. They seem to be resistant, and C&R seems to be a positive factor, preserving resistant fish to breed, not a cause of spreading WD. Go ahead and post your rebuttal, and I will read it, but this debate will probably go on for years and we, at least I, can’t do a darned thing about WD. So, if you don’t mind, I respectfully bow out of this discussion. I only entered into it again to answer the question on why it appears steep stream gradients don’t have a WD problem. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it. Darryl Hayashida how do you distinguish a hatchery fish from a wild one ? just curious (i’m a strict C&R guy)

In the area I fish in, a stocker is a 10 to 12 inch rainbow with tattered fins and a dark almost black back.They all look the same, as if they were cranked out by an assembly line. The fins are tattered because they grow up packed into a concrete pen where their fins rub against the walls and each other. The hatchery fish also tend to nip each others fins. Probably out of irritation or maybe lack of anything else to do. Their backs are black because the have no way to get out of the sun and fish skin reacts to strong sunlight just like human skin does – increased melanin, or in other words, a suntan. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As far as a hatrchery fish goes, if the fish was raised in a WD negative hatchery  (or born in the wild) and placed in a WD positive stream it would never exhibit  signs of WD but could carry millions of spores until its death. But a fish raised in a "lightly infected" WD positve hatchery may only be exposed to a few spores,  at which time the fish becomes immune to WD, and the spore load never increases. Which fish should is the healthiest? In the end it will be the hatchery raised WD exposed fish that has the best chance of survival and passing on resistance to its offspring. regards, Mike

Now, Mike.  Building strawmen arguments and then knocking them down is a crude and not very supportable method of proving your point.  Yes, if I accept that only the two scenarios you’ve outlined exist, your choice is superior.  However, it is possible that a wild trout, or one introduced from a hatchery, may inhabit a "lightly infected" WD positive stream and provide an immunity to WD that is commensurate with your hypothetical Hatchery Fish.  After all, this is Mother Nature we’re discussing here.  She’s anything but linear! I believe that hatcheries have their place, as do wild runs. I believe that catch and release is a tools, and should be used with an awareness of the appropriate application of that tool and its potential short-comings. I believe Flyfishing, much like Monday Night Football, has become much too popular, and in its popularity has suffered from many individuals trying to define it to fit into their paradigm.  It’s still just fishing. Tight Lines, Charley

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No, because if you have just caught a fish that appears healthy, then it either has WD or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t then put it back. If it does, then it might be one of the few fish that are resistant to WD, and if it lives to reproduce, the resistance will be passed on to its offspring. Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it.

There is absolutely no way to tell if a fish has WD or not, except for the very young fish who were exposed before ther cartilage had formed. These young fish will have deformed spines, heads, and blackened tails. However they do not live very long as they are easy prey, poor competitors, or die as a result of WD.  On the other hand an older fish that is exposed my carry millions of spores and never show any signs. When they die they release these spores that invade the Tubifex worm (intermediate host) that later releases the spores that harm the very young fish. As far as a hatrchery fish goes, if the fish was raised in a WD negative hatchery  (or born in the wild) and placed in a WD positive stream it would never exhibit  signs of WD but could carry millions of spores until its death. But a fish raised in a "lightly infected" WD positve hatchery may only be exposed to a few spores,  at which time the fish becomes immune to WD, and the spore load never increases. Which fish should is the healthiest? In the end it will be the hatchery raised WD exposed fish that has the best chance of survival and passing on resistance to its offspring. regards, Mike

Response:

<snip A recent study on the Colorado River states:..Trout sampled exhibited higher symptoms of both whirling disease      and gas bubble traum=

a in stream sections with high saturation levels than those with lower saturation levels. <snip What exactly is gas bubble trauma? Is this an effect in aerated hydraulics on ??? gills, body surface, or ???? Please elucidate. Jon

Response:

One of the stages in the WD parasites’ life is in the tubifex worm. These worms live in the mud on the bottom of a river. A large elevation drop generally means faster water, and no mud accumulation. No mud, no worms, no place for the WD parasite to accumulate. Also faster water means a dead rotting WD infested carcass doesn’t go to the bottom to spread it’s spores. It gets swept away. Does this latter posit a positive argument for catch and kill ? TimW

No, because if you have just caught a fish that appears healthy, then it either has WD or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t then put it back. If it does, then it might be one of the few fish that are resistant to WD, and if it lives to reproduce, the resistance will be passed on to its offspring. Of course, this applies to wild fish. If it’s a hatchery fish, keep it. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

     Just my $0.02, and I expect I’ll get a flame or two for this.      Rainbows are native to Pacific coast streams.  Sure they grow to a large size, but anytime you transplant fish from their place of origin to a new area, you’re taking a big risk.  Not only are the organisms not adapted to all the vagaraties of the new habiat, even if the populations do thrive, but the other organisms in the new habitat are also not adapted to the imported species.      Cutthroats are native to the Rocky Mountain streams.  They evolved there, in consort with all of the other organisms in the ecosystem.  It would make more sense to revitalize the cutthroat populations, especially with all of their interesting subspecies, than to keep relying on alien species.  Likewise I would rather see more brook trout in eastern streams. Jesse M. Purvis

Response:

   I have a few questions about whirling disease I hope someone knowledgeable can answer.  Any realistic estimates on how long it would take a river that has been hit hard by the disease (the Madison for example) to recover naturally without stocking?  Years?  Decades?  Never? Will the parasite die off after a period with no juvenile rainbows, making the river suitable for repopulation?  Can a significant portion of fry survive to sexual maturity, or does reproduction halt completely?  It seems to me that by the time the river recovers to a point that it is suitable for a rainbow population again that the surviving trout, if any, would be too old to spawn.    Are steelhead susceptible?    Let’s suppose that it is only a matter of time before all the wild rainbow fisheries in the west are affected.  While it is awful to imagine, it seems realistic unless we find a way to kill the parasite.  After all, rivers that are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.    I hope this initiates some useful discussion. -al

Response:

These responses are part fact and part my own distilled opinion. However, I did attend the WD conference in Denver back in Feb, and have read alot of the papers that were discussed there, so I think I’m reasonably well-informed.   I have a few questions about whirling disease I hope someone knowledgeable can answer.  Any realistic estimates on how long it would take a river that has been hit hard by the disease (the Madison for example) to recover naturally without stocking?  Years?  Decades?  Never?

No one knows – can be any of the above. Depends on what you mean by recover, and on what it is recovering from. However, keep reading, the news isn’t that bad. Will the parasite die off after a period with no juvenile rainbows, making the river suitable for repopulation?

Apparently, yes. Utah killed off a river counting on this. CA has seen watersheds go from testing positive for WD to negative over several years, too. Can a significant portion of fry survive to sexual maturity, or does reproduction halt completely?  It

Yes, a significant portion can survive. It depends on how saturated the water is with WD; and that depends on river conditions. My bet is that many rivers in the west will not support heavy concentrations of WD (ie, enough to drastically affect the rainbow population). Most hard-hit waters are tailwaters — no runoff, constant temps, and lots of moss and mud for tubifex worms (the other host). seems to me that by the time the river recovers to a point that it is suitable for a rainbow population again that the surviving trout, if any, would be too old to spawn.

I am pretty sure that fish spawn all of their adult life. In fact, the older and bigger they are, the more eggs they produce. They just keep getting better!   Are steelhead susceptible?

Probably.   Let’s suppose that it is only a matter of time before all the wild rainbow fisheries in the west are affected.  While it is awful to imagine, it seems realistic unless we find a way to kill the parasite.  After all, rivers that are not stocked have been infected, so it is spreading somehow.  

Yeah, but don’t worry about it. I don’t think it’ll spread as fast as in the past, and, as above, there are many rivers that probably won’t see population crashes, due to the nature of the river itself. Besides, the rainbow isn’t native in much of the west anyways. Its just the CA$H fish — maybe ol’ T-Bone will get his wish of less-crowded waters, after all. Most states will reestablish rainbow populations by stocking hatchery-raised fish or establish populations of other species to replace the lost rainbows, correct?  Any guesses on how long Montana’s policy of not stocking wild rivers will last when their tourist industry takes such a hit?  On the same subject, what would be Idaho’s reaction if/when the Henry’s Fork is hit.

I don’t think they’ll need to stock. Remember, the Madison was already over 50% browns, so its not like there’s no fish left. Probably Henry’s Fork too. But who knows, I could be wrong. There are many states and many rivers already infected. Overall, it has been very few rivers that have seen population crashes. And these rivers ARE NOT NATURAL. The upper Colorado, the Madison, others in Colorado, do not have natural flows. I don’t think WD will devastate the west. Jon.

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Question:

I am looking for information on fishing the San Juan river in New Mexico during the month of November.  I,ve been told that it is a time to fish mostly nymphs, SJ worms and midges.  Looking for a guide and a place to stay.  Will mostl likely be there second weekend (Thur-Sun) in Nov.  How is the weather at that time of the year?  Do I need very warm clothing?  I indend to fish an Orvis Far & Fine 5wt., will that be enough rod, as I also have an Orvis Performer 6wt. Thanks Mike Recine

Mike, November is a great time to fish the San Juan.   Check out Abe’s for motel, and "Born and Raised" for a great guide (Abe’ son Tim). Phone #s are in the back of any fly fishing mag. Nymphs are the usual, however, a warm sunny day can give you a hatch in the early afternoon.  Again, check with the guide ahead of time to see what might be hatching in Nov. Weather will likely be cold in the mornings, and comfortable 50s/60s in the afternoons.  The river is in a canyon, so is protected from sun’s warming till mid-morning.  The wind following the canyons can be tough at times, especially if the temps are down.  Layers of clothing is key to being comfortable. A 5wt is fine and if you have an light touch, you can do it with a 4 wt. There are some large trout.  My biggest was 24" and I caught 6 22" in one afternoon – most on my 5, two on my 4. (I have not been able to repeat that outstanding afternoon yet, but the memory is still fresh) Enjoy ! Dee    

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I am looking for information on fishing the San Juan river in New Mexico during the month of November.  I,ve been told that it is a time to fish mostly nymphs, SJ worms and midges.  Looking for a guide and a place to stay.  Will mostl likely be there second weekend (Thur-Sun) in Nov.  How is the weather at that time of the year?  Do I need very warm clothing?  I indend to fish an Orvis Far & Fine 5wt., will that be enough rod, as I also have an Orvis Performer 6wt. Thanks Mike Recine

Response:

You need waders year round in the San Juan. Water temp is around 50 degrees. 5mm neoprene.

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Some friends and I are going fishing on the San Juan the last week of June? Question: how cold is the San Juan at that time of year. I need to know to prepare  myself with waders, if necessary or just fish in shorts. And what is the ambient temp of the air during the day along the river? I need to decide on waders and what type, or just stick to shorts. Michael — Michael Paine Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens.

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Question:

In mid October we’re headed from San Francisco up to fish the Olympic Peninsula and then on up to fish the Kispiox in upper BC.  I need a pair of hip boots, 5mm with lug soles (don’t wade deep any more so hippers should do fine).  Gear such as this are not available here in Hawaii. We’ll be going thru Portland.  Can anyone tell me where I can buy such an animal there, the address of the shop, and their phone number. Aloha, |Robert (aka: Bob) B. Graham – NINC-HON [retired]   Office: gone fishing  | |(Nerd-In-Chief Honolulu)                             Home: (808) 395-9360| |City & County of Honolulu         Prodigy: WTKW87A                       | I have a vice, that vice is fishing – time stops, I’m in a different world.

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Im sure you’ve heard it before- but Kaufmann’s streamborn is located in tigard (basically portland) at 8861 SW Commercial in tigard- Just a little ways off of I 5. You can call (503) 639-6400 for more info and directions. Id really reccomend Kaufmann’s – im sure theyll have whatever you need. tight lines -matt petkun

: In mid October we’re headed from San Francisco up to fish the Olympic : Peninsula and then on up to fish the Kispiox in upper BC.  I need a pair : of hip boots, 5mm with lug soles (don’t wade deep any more so hippers : should do fine).  Gear such as this are not available here in Hawaii. : We’ll be going thru Portland.  Can anyone tell me where I can buy such an : animal there, the address of the shop, and their phone number. : Aloha, : |Robert (aka: Bob) B. Graham – NINC-HON [retired]   Office: gone fishing  | : |(Nerd-In-Chief Honolulu)                             Home: (808) 395-9360| : |City & County of Honolulu         Prodigy: WTKW87A                       | : I have a vice, that vice is fishing – time stops, I’m in a different world.

Response:

Bob, I’m going to have to disagree with Mary. Kaufmann’s does not carry hip waders. (They believe them dangerous and/or undesireable). If you are just looking for a place during a layover, then grab a cab and go to GI Joe’s at Jantzen Beach. Any cabbie should know where that is. Actually, I would suggest GI Joe’s even if it will be an extended stay. I might suggest getting felt sole waders, though. The rocks in shallow water are the most slippery, usually. Sean Williams Student, Teacher, Angler Portland, Ore., USA

Response:

You can also check with the Larry’s Sporting Goods in Oregon City or in Gresham.  There is also a GI Joes and another Larry’s Sporting Goods in Gresham, plus one more GI Joes in the Rockwood area (somewhere around 182nd and Burnside) in Portland.  That is presuming they are all still open, it’s been 8 years since I lived in the area. Do you really want 5 mil neoprene hippers?  They’re real warm.  Also, keep in mind that if you are trying to be stealthy around trout or steelhead you can’t kneel down with hippers as they will fill up even in shallow water.                                                                   Dan Dan Gracia Schools Coordinator Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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Question:

Mass. non-resident (7-day) is $16.50 Very close to Chelmsford pan-fish and some bass can be found on the Sudbury and Concord rivers. There is also some ocean blue-fishing done with salt fly rods but I know little about this. Regarding trout, nearest to Chelmsford is the Nissitissit River, fly-fishing only C&R. A bit further afield are the Cape ponds.  About an hour away is the fly-fishing only C&R on the Swift River and further still is the C&R section of the Deerfield.  The Swift and Deerfield drain the Quabbin and Fife Brook Dam repectively so the water temperatures will stay optimal throughout the summer – which is why they are the two best bets at this time of year. Stocking takes place near to (and in) Chelmsford but its all put-and-take, the fish can’t survive this long. I am not especially familiar with New Hampshire, but for the cost of a non-resident license I think you’d have better chances there. Chelmsford is just a few minutes from the border.

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When I worked in Chelmsford I used to fish Walden Pond a lot. Lots of brown trout, many of them big (biggest I’ve seen was a 12 lb. a guy got on bait) and big rainbows (to 7 lbs.) too, but this was many years ago (‘84). At the time I did best with Henryvilles, midges and muddlers fished deep and slow at night. Nine three streamers were good for rainbows too.                                                         jc

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