Question:

days.  I would guess the tire needed more brakes for some reason in each case. You said it was the home base and the base is notorious for the effect of sudden brakage.

The first plane was a Fed-Ex A-300 out of Newark. They stopped in less than 4000′ of runway. All 8 main tires were blown. Jacks had to be trucked in to raise it up to change the tires. Once it was raised, the brakes wouldn’t disassemble. It was on the runway about 12 hours. Interestingly, it isn’t in the FAA’s incident listings. The second plane was a DC-3 based at nearby airport. Flat tires on taildraggers can be tricky. Fortunately they didn’t ground-loop it. The local newspaper reported that no flights had to divert. You know I sent a sarcastic e-mail to that editor. D.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It was a clear calm morning. The sun was just coming up over the ocean. The temperature was around 70F. I had an easy commute in to work. The employee parking shuttle bus driver waited for me to walk over and board instead of making me wait 15 minutes for the next one. I had only one Jeppeson update to do. There weren’t any nasty memoes from the chief pilot. No one was running their noisy APU, so I did the pre-flight exterior inspection. For once, I didn’t find any discrepencies. The only way it could have been better is if I started the day fishing instead of waiting until I got off work to go fishing. After the pre-flight, I was standing next to the plane chatting with a friend. He and I used to tow banners together. As we were talking, a big cloud of smoke rolled across the airfield. It was tire smoke but too much for a normal landing. Then a gate agent motioned for me to come up the jetway because the boarding passengers were concerned about the smell. I gave them an explanation that worked. After I hung up the PA, my helper-pilot told me that the main runway was shut down because of a disabled aircraft. We made a bet on which airline it was. It turned out to be my turn to buy lunch. Our departure time is at the start of the morning rush of departures, but the morning rush wasn’t happening because many flights were having headaches trying to get their weight down so they could use the short runway. We launched from the short runway in good time. The trip up to the Northeast was pleasant. We called the field insight from 60 miles out. Our turn time was good. We were ready to board when my intuition made the other pilot call clearance. Sure enough, we had a 2 hour gate hold because of delays due to a disabled airplane at our destination. That was going to cut into my fishing time. After the first hour passed, and the greasy spoon diner they call a restaurant had started serving lunch, I sauntered up to the gate area to get a bite to eat. I was surrounded by anxious passengers wanting more information. The gate agent had been instructed not to say anything. A certain irritable streak deep inside was starting to wiggle around because, unlike management, I know how to run an airline. I picked up the PA and gave the folks the information they craved. Just as my speech was winding down, the gate agent wispered to me that our gear-up time had been moved up. I keyed the PA again and told everyone that we had 20 minutes to be in the air or else ATC would send us to the end of the list. Those people must have liked my speech. They ran down the jetway. They stuffed bags in the overheads with super-human strength. I think I saw them shove the last standing passenger into a seat. We set a record for boarding a full plane. They must have liked my speech. Number 2 engine was lit and spooling up as we ran the runway. We made it into the air with less than a minute left of our edict. Maybe I should use that speech more often. The flight southbound was just as nice. ATC was giving vectors and speed restrictions to other traffic in order to get the required in-trail spacing, but they left us alone. All was going well. Too well. On the arrival, 30 miles from the airport, we were given holding instructions. It caught us by surprise. I had to fly the first orbit by hand until my helper-pilot programmed the hold into the FMS. Then he called the tower for more information. He turned to me and said, "What are the odds?". The main runway was still shutdown because it still had an airplane on it with 8 blown tires. The second runway was now shutdown because it also had an airplane on it with blown tires. What are the odds? The second plane was a DC-3. I know that the last DC-3 towbar left the airport a long time ago. The first disabled plane was still on it’s axles. The airport wouldn’t be open anytime soon. We decided that holding wouldn’t change anything, so we diverted to another airport. I never did get to go fishing that day. It was a beautiful day for fishing and I was stuck at the airport. What are the odds? D.

Two blown tire incidents in one days.  I would guess the tire needed more brakes for some reason in each case. You said it was the home base and the base is notorious for the effect of sudden brakage. And fishing at your homebase is a passtime so maybe it has to do with water near the end of the runway. I remember Boston for this problem in the news papers. Is Boston your base?? I remember the Massacheustts solution for the Boston runway problem was to keep the old one and add a second without water as the overrun. Except the new one solved the noise polution problem only and is a poor use for the new North End. Somebody had Mayor White’s old crowd mad at them way back.

Response:

It was a clear calm morning. The sun was just coming up over the ocean. The temperature was around 70F. I had an easy commute in to work. The employee parking shuttle bus driver waited for me to walk over and board instead of making me wait 15 minutes for the next one. I had only one Jeppeson update to do. There weren’t any nasty memoes from the chief pilot. No one was running their noisy APU, so I did the pre-flight exterior inspection. For once, I didn’t find any discrepencies. The only way it could have been better is if I started the day fishing instead of waiting until I got off work to go fishing. After the pre-flight, I was standing next to the plane chatting with a friend. He and I used to tow banners together. As we were talking, a big cloud of smoke rolled across the airfield. It was tire smoke but too much for a normal landing. Then a gate agent motioned for me to come up the jetway because the boarding passengers were concerned about the smell. I gave them an explanation that worked. After I hung up the PA, my helper-pilot told me that the main runway was shut down because of a disabled aircraft. We made a bet on which airline it was. It turned out to be my turn to buy lunch. Our departure time is at the start of the morning rush of departures, but the morning rush wasn’t happening because many flights were having headaches trying to get their weight down so they could use the short runway. We launched from the short runway in good time. The trip up to the Northeast was pleasant. We called the field insight from 60 miles out. Our turn time was good. We were ready to board when my intuition made the other pilot call clearance. Sure enough, we had a 2 hour gate hold because of delays due to a disabled airplane at our destination. That was going to cut into my fishing time. After the first hour passed, and the greasy spoon diner they call a restaurant had started serving lunch, I sauntered up to the gate area to get a bite to eat. I was surrounded by anxious passengers wanting more information. The gate agent had been instructed not to say anything. A certain irritable streak deep inside was starting to wiggle around because, unlike management, I know how to run an airline. I picked up the PA and gave the folks the information they craved. Just as my speech was winding down, the gate agent wispered to me that our gear-up time had been moved up. I keyed the PA again and told everyone that we had 20 minutes to be in the air or else ATC would send us to the end of the list. Those people must have liked my speech. They ran down the jetway. They stuffed bags in the overheads with super-human strength. I think I saw them shove the last standing passenger into a seat. We set a record for boarding a full plane. They must have liked my speech. Number 2 engine was lit and spooling up as we ran the runway. We made it into the air with less than a minute left of our edict. Maybe I should use that speech more often. The flight southbound was just as nice. ATC was giving vectors and speed restrictions to other traffic in order to get the required in-trail spacing, but they left us alone. All was going well. Too well. On the arrival, 30 miles from the airport, we were given holding instructions. It caught us by surprise. I had to fly the first orbit by hand until my helper-pilot programmed the hold into the FMS. Then he called the tower for more information. He turned to me and said, "What are the odds?". The main runway was still shutdown because it still had an airplane on it with 8 blown tires. The second runway was now shutdown because it also had an airplane on it with blown tires. What are the odds? The second plane was a DC-3. I know that the last DC-3 towbar left the airport a long time ago. The first disabled plane was still on it’s axles. The airport wouldn’t be open anytime soon. We decided that holding wouldn’t change anything, so we diverted to another airport. I never did get to go fishing that day. It was a beautiful day for fishing and I was stuck at the airport. What are the odds? D.

Response:

Question:

I have corresponded with a couple entomologists specializing in Mayflies that were very willing to help me with some questions I had. I can give you their email addresses if you’re interested but with the little bit of information you have (and it is from a forty year old memory) I don’t think they will be able to help you.

Agreed.  I think the only way to settle this for sure is to find someone familiar with this particular hatch on that body of water. Wolfgang

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the prize goes to Tom (a shiny, new nickel) as Kropp and Cormier’s "Mayflies’ list the Dark Green Drake as the largest of the N.A. mayfly species, larger than our hexes.  There is quite a size range with body length ranging from a 16 to 40 millimeters and a recommended hook size from 12 to a whopping #2. Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake), and the L. mentioned by Tom is likely from the similar, but smaller, H. Limbata.  While it would seemingly fit Wolfgang’s description ("Hatches" even makes mention of it appearing "almost black" on the wing), it is a Hexagenia. Wolfgang – you said something about being certain it was not hexagenia – why? As H. Recurvata and H. Limbata are close, with the Limbata hatch even being known mistakenly in Michigan as, again, according to "Hatches," a "Caddis Hatch," and also being called a "Michigan Caddis" or "Michigan Mayfly."

H. limbata is much too light colored and too large to be my mystery bug.  Still having trouble getting on the web, so I haven’t been able to look at H. recurvata (or Litobrancha recurvata as it now seems to be called), or the Epeorus you mentioned earlier for that matter. I’m surprised to read that the Green Drake is considered by Kropp and Cormier to be the largest of the North american mayflies; every reference I’ve seen says that honor belongs to H. limbata. Wolfgang

Response:

JAFB, Wolfie — TBone

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the prize goes to Tom (a shiny, new nickel) as Kropp and Cormier’s "Mayflies’ list the Dark Green Drake as the largest of the N.A. mayfly species, larger than our hexes.  There is quite a size range with body length ranging from a 16 to 40 millimeters and a recommended hook size from 12 to a whopping #2. Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake), and the L. mentioned by Tom is likely from the similar, but smaller, H. Limbata.  While it would seemingly fit Wolfgang’s description ("Hatches" even makes mention of it appearing "almost black" on the wing), it is a Hexagenia. Wolfgang – you said something about being certain it was not hexagenia – why? As H. Recurvata and H. Limbata are close, with the Limbata hatch even being known mistakenly in Michigan as, again, according to "Hatches," a "Caddis Hatch," and also being called a "Michigan Caddis" or "Michigan Mayfly." H. limbata is much too light colored and too large to be my mystery bug.  Still having trouble getting on the web, so I haven’t been able to look at H. recurvata (or Litobrancha recurvata as it now seems to be called), or the Epeorus you mentioned earlier for that matter. I’m surprised to read that the Green Drake is considered by Kropp and Cormier to be the largest of the North american mayflies; every reference I’ve seen says that honor belongs to H. limbata.

I think you may have that backwards in that I think you’ll find that Recurvata is larger than Limbata, but only just.  In any case, they are close enough in size that it doesn’t really matter – if one is much too large, the other will be as well.  If they are too large, then color really doesn’t matter, but I’ve seen references that indicate both can range in color.  Based on the information that Recurvata/Limbata is much too large, I’d try to get a look at Epeorus.  Here’s a link I found: http://www.mayfly.com/articles/WW7.html by Al Caucci and I’ve also emailed you a copy of the "suspect." TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Wolfgang

Response:

rdean notes: Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake),

was….then got reclassified as Litobrancha Recurvata. Geez, all this latin has me dizzy. Let me grab a beer!                       Tom

Response:

rdean notes: Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake), was….then got reclassified as Litobrancha Recurvata. Geez, all this latin has me dizzy. Let me grab a beer!                      Tom

Ah…thanks.  I guess then I ought to add that everything I’ve indicated in this thread may be equally outdated.  I’m almost afraid to ask, but…any idea why? TC, R

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did it look like this? http://www.charlesmeck.com/600slatedrake.jpg That looks a lot more like what I remember.  There’s still a good bit of brown in this one but, in truth, 40 some years later it’s hard to be certain that the bugs I saw and which I was NOT interested in examining closely did not have some brown.  On the other hand, a brief search on the web shows that both Isonychia bicolor and Isonychia sadleri are referred to as Slate Drakes and both of these, according to the hatch charts I looked at, run in the 14-12 size range.  Again, it’s quite possible that my memory has magnified them, but I’m fairly certain these bugs were bigger.

What about an Epeorus variety – "Iron Dun," and even "Quill Gordon," perhaps, to some (or "Dark Wing Quill Gordon")?  If you have the Caucci/Nastasi "Hatches," you will find info there, or perhaps a web search.  If you do the web search, don’t take the first picture you find, if it appears unlike the one you remember.  I did a search, looked at a couple, and there seems to be no actual consensus among the few sites I looked at as to exactly what was what. I did, however, notice this one, which unfortunately, has no picture: http://www.maineflyfishing.com/bluedun/pattern.htm Look under "Quill Gordon," where it says, "Quill Gordons are called Epeorus Pleuralis (ee-pee-or-us ploor-alice) by those up on Latin and just plain old "bigggggg dark mayflies" or "Iron Duns" by the rest of us. They are big (size 10/12), dark, have two tails (barred and equal to their body length), double  wings…" TC, R

Response:

I think the prize goes to Tom (a shiny, new nickel) as Kropp and Cormier’s "Mayflies’ list the Dark Green Drake as the largest of the N.A. mayfly species, larger than our hexes.  There is quite a size range with body length ranging from a 16 to 40 millimeters and a recommended hook size from 12 to a whopping #2.

Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake), and the L. mentioned by Tom is likely from the similar, but smaller, H. Limbata.  While it would seemingly fit Wolfgang’s description ("Hatches" even makes mention of it appearing "almost black" on the wing), it is a Hexagenia.   Wolfgang – you said something about being certain it was not hexagenia – why? As H. Recurvata and H. Limbata are close, with the Limbata hatch even being known mistakenly in Michigan as, again, according to "Hatches," a "Caddis Hatch," and also being called a "Michigan Caddis" or "Michigan Mayfly." TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

      I’ve found all kinds of good entomological sites on the web, but all   fall short of what would be ideal for this situation.  For example, I   found a site that has range maps for all known mayfly species within the   state of Wisconsin (a USGS site, of all the odd places) but as   interesting, and doubtless valuable, this information is, it’s pretty   much useless without cross referenced information regarding appearance,   habitat, and habit of the target species. Although the Web has a vast amount of information, it is often difficult or even impossible to find the specific information that you want. I would like to see the studies done at public Universities made available on the Internet. Because the data would need to be inputted, it would be costly and difficult for older studies, but virtually all current research is composed on a computer and making them available to the public wouldn’t be a monumental task. This access could be a condition for any researchers getting public funding for their research.     Consulting an entomologist has occurred to me, but this is neither as   easy nor necessarily as promising as it might sound.  First, one would   necessarily have to find an aquatic entomologist (or at least one with a   specific interest in aquatic species…..a fly fisher perhaps).  I know   of a good aquatic entomologist at UW, Stevens Point but he happens to   specialize in plecoptera and, scientific specialties being what they   are, this might not help much even if I were trying to identify a   stonefly unless he happened to be a taxonomist or have some other reason   to be familiar with my target species. I have corresponded with a couple entomologists specializing in Mayflies that were very willing to help me with some questions I had. I can give you their email addresses if you’re interested but with the little bit of information you have (and it is from a forty year old memory) I don’t think they will be able to help you.     As you stated, local subspecies might look and behave a great deal   differently than expected for a variety of reasons.  Hell, it isn’t even   unreasonable to suppose that we might be dealing with a species unknown   to science.  Granted, it isn’t likely but new species (especially of   small and highly localized arthropods) do turn up from time to time.   There is also the possibility (admittedly also unlikely) of a known   species behaving in an uncharacteristic manner.  For example, an   uncommon species might suddenly reproduce successfully in undreamed of   numbers within a given location due to an unusual and highly beneficial   confluence of circumstances. You may very well be right about this. One of the researchers I contacted said that they were MANY unknown species and local variations. There just isn’t much grant money available to study them. The vast amount of research done on insects is on insect control (where the money is). Willi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What about an Epeorus variety – "Iron Dun," and even "Quill Gordon," perhaps, to some (or "Dark Wing Quill Gordon")?  If you have the Caucci/Nastasi "Hatches," you will find info there, or perhaps a web search.  If you do the web search, don’t take the first picture you find, if it appears unlike the one you remember.  I did a search, looked at a couple, and there seems to be no actual consensus among the few sites I looked at as to exactly what was what. I did, however, notice this one, which unfortunately, has no picture: http://www.maineflyfishing.com/bluedun/pattern.htm Look under "Quill Gordon," where it says, "Quill Gordons are called Epeorus Pleuralis (ee-pee-or-us ploor-alice) by those up on Latin and just plain old "bigggggg dark mayflies" or "Iron Duns" by the rest of us. They are big (size 10/12), dark, have two tails (barred and equal to their body length), double  wings…"

Unfortunately, I seem to be unable to access anything on the web right now.  We had some trouble with the college server last week.  Looks like it may not be entirely resolved yet.  I’ll take a look at the Epeorus as soon as I can. Thanks Wolfgang

Response:

I think the prize goes to Tom (a shiny, new nickel) as Kropp and Cormier’s "Mayflies’ list the Dark Green Drake as the largest of the N.A. mayfly species, larger than our hexes.  There is quite a size range with body length ranging from a 16 to 40 millimeters and a recommended hook size from 12 to a whopping #2. According to the book, they are clumsy on takeoff as they are so large, often skipping across  the water. They emerge at dusk or after sunset being primarily a cool lake species but slow, silty parts of rivers will hold them too. BTW, at the beginning of August, we drove through a blizzard light cahill hatch at dusk.  Still trying to get the critters off my car. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

  Well, roughly anyway. Maybe this is it? Late June through mid July – Ephemera Simulans, Brown Drake, this is the most prevalent large mayfly hatch in the Upper Peninsula.

I was fortunate to fish a Brown Drake hatch this year at Silver Creek. These are by far the largest mayflies I’ve ever seen, and the hatch was prolific. The hatch occurs in the evening and through the night, until it’s so dark that you can only detect the takes by ear. These bugs live in slow moving water with a silty bottom. The nymphs are swimmers, and they’ll take fish before the hatch with a stripped retrieve. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

 Wolfgang, dear boy.  There is only one mayfly that is as prolific as the ones you describe.  Hexagina Limbatas!  So thick are they during the early days that they would cover a cabin and all the screen doors with their numbers. God!  What an insect! George Gehrke

Response:

  Well, roughly anyway. Maybe this is it? Late June through mid July – Ephemera Simulans, Brown Drake, this is the most prevalent large mayfly hatch in the Upper Peninsula. Willi

Nope.  Found a picture of Ephemera simulans: http://www.flyshop.com/bench/hatchguide/index.cfm?page=bug&row=13 Not the same critter at all.  As the common name suggests, this beastie is brown.  The one I remember is black. Thanks. Wolfgang

Response:

I think they were some kind of a variation of huge Brown Drake. Hear me out. I’ve got the same question… 55-60 years ago, when I was growing up in Chicago, I lived on the far north side 2 blocks from Lake Michigan.  Every summer, sometime in June, there was a massive hatch of Mayflys almost exactly as you describe.  They were coming off the shore of the lake. There was no other body of water within 50 miles that could support such a hatch. It was so prolific it completely blackened the street lights, covered the store front windows – you couldn’t see out.  They covered the ground so thick they squished under your feet. I remember some of them having a very dark brown hue as well as slate gray to black.  They were easily size 6 – 8.  They were NOT Hexigina. I never found out what they were for sure. In recent years I’ve seen other similar hatches coming off clear Canadian Lakes that were known to be Brown Drakes. Wolf, keep it as a sweet memory of your youth.  Dream about someday being on a stream or lake holding 10 lb. Rainbow when a hatch like that comes off.  The fish go wild and you go bonkers. Heaven.   Joel Axelrad **DFD**

Response:

Nope.  Found a picture of Ephemera simulans: http://www.flyshop.com/bench/hatchguide/index.cfm?page=bug&row=13 Not the same critter at all.  As the common name suggests, this beastie is brown.  The one I remember is black. Thanks.

Did it look like this? http://www.charlesmeck.com/600slatedrake.jpg — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

Discounting them by about thirty percent for temporal magnification and the horror factor still leaves them at a good size eight or even a solid six…..and possibly a bit larger. Any ideas?

wolfie, no discounting…. it must have been…. http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/earth/images/bat_big_jpg_image… –waldo

Response:

Wolfgang asks: Any ideas?

ask around among the academic types for someone who knows an entomologist. There are probably very good entomologies online(which may limit access). People will probably suggest Ephemera and Hexes, but there an awful lot of obscure mayfly species, and lakes have locale specific subspecies you might never encounter unless you blunder on them. I will venture with the closest I have ever seen. It would be: L(Litobrancha?).Recurvata, which was once classified with the Hexes. In PA they are called Dark Green Drakes. They hatch at or into dark, sometimes on real cloudy days, a bit earlier, say 7 PM. They are huge, maybe bigger than the Green Drakes. The bodies are a darkish grey, with rings of paler yellow tan along the abdomen. Wings are a smokey grey, mottled somewhat. They look nasty, as they are a bit heftier in the body(squatter, might be better). Hatched out of a silty pool in Penns one night on Makela and I, fish going silly, no good imitations, massive bugs in mouth and hair, etc.etc. That was in 1993, haven’t seen one since.                                   Tom

Response:

Did it look like this? http://www.charlesmeck.com/600slatedrake.jpg

That looks a lot more like what I remember.  There’s still a good bit of brown in this one but, in truth, 40 some years later it’s hard to be certain that the bugs I saw and which I was NOT interested in examining closely did not have some brown.  On the other hand, a brief search on the web shows that both Isonychia bicolor and Isonychia sadleri are referred to as Slate Drakes and both of these, according to the hatch charts I looked at, run in the 14-12 size range.  Again, it’s quite possible that my memory has magnified them, but I’m fairly certain these bugs were bigger. All in all, I think uncle Wally’s candidate looks the most promising.     Wolfgang

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Discounting them by about thirty percent for temporal magnification and the horror factor still leaves them at a good size eight or even a solid six…..and possibly a bit larger. Any ideas? wolfie, no discounting…. it must have been…. http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/earth/images/bat_big_jpg_image…

THAT’S IT!  I’d recognize the bastard anywhere! Wolfgang who is reasonably certain he doesn’t even want to know what the nymphs look like.      :(

Response:

I think they were some kind of a variation of huge Brown Drake. Hear me out. I’ve got the same question… 55-60 years ago, when I was growing up in Chicago, I lived on the far north side 2 blocks from Lake Michigan.  Every summer, sometime in June, there was a massive hatch of Mayflys almost exactly as you describe.  They were coming off the shore of the lake. There was no other body of water within 50 miles that could support such a hatch. It was so prolific it completely blackened the street lights, covered the store front windows – you couldn’t see out.  They covered the ground so thick they squished under your feet.

I remember talking about this with you, but I don’t recall whether you said anything about the substrate there.  The bugs I encountered would almost have to have been burrowers.  The bottom of this lake was very soft….even very near shore where turbulence would wash away at least some of the muck you would sink at least ankle deep in the stuff.  I’m not intimately familiar with the Lake Michigan shoreline in the Chicago area, so I may have missed it, but I don’t believe there’s any large protected area that would have that kind of soft bottom.  Do you know of any such? I remember some of them having a very dark brown hue as well as slate gray to black.  They were easily size 6 – 8.  

Size and color scheme sound about right. They were NOT Hexigina.

Absolutely right.  Impossible to mistake the Hex for anything else. Moreover, while I don’t remember just how long they were around, we encountered them when we first left the cottage in the morning, which would have been fairly early (at a cottage on a lake in what we thought of as the north woods nothing…..well, almost nothing…could keep us indoors much past sunrise on a sunny day) and I remember that we stayed inside for the rest of the day, and perhaps even the next.  These bugs were active….VERY active….throughout the day. I never found out what they were for sure. In recent years I’ve seen other similar hatches coming off clear Canadian Lakes that were known to be Brown Drakes.

Didn’t you also tell me the last time we talked about them that you thought you had seen them again in the Chicago area…..or am I imagining that? Wolf, keep it as a sweet memory of your youth.  Dream about someday being on a stream or lake holding 10 lb. Rainbow when a hatch like that comes off.  The fish go wild and you go bonkers. Heaven.

Pretty picture!  Somewhat surprisingly, perhaps, I find the thought of finding the hatch again even more appealing than the idea of the monster fish. Wolfgang we need to talk logistics concerning the upcoming trip.

Response:

Wolfgang writes… but I don’t believe there’s any large protected area that would have that kind of soft bottom.  Do you know of any such?

That’s true.  It was a clean sandy bottom.  Not protected.  Well washed  by the wave action.  Vegatation about 30 to 50 yds out from shore. Didn’t you also tell me the last time we talked about them that you thought you had seen them again in the Chicago area…..or am I imagining that?

I don’t think so.  You’re imagining. Pretty picture!  Somewhat surprisingly, perhaps, I find the thought of finding the hatch again even more appealing than the idea of the monster fish. Wolfgang

I still think they were Brown Drakes.  Looked a lot like the picture from the web site Warren posted.  But they were 6 & 8 for sure – not 10 & 12. Big guys!  I’ll dream of catching 10 lb. rainbow.  You dream of being blanketed by a hatch of monster mayflys. we need to talk logistics concerning the upcoming trip.

Let me know the details. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

Response:

Wolfgang asks: Any ideas? ask around among the academic types for someone who knows an entomologist. There are probably very good entomologies online(which may limit access).

I’ve found all kinds of good entomological sites on the web, but all fall short of what would be ideal for this situation.  For example, I found a site that has range maps for all known mayfly species within the state of Wisconsin (a USGS site, of all the odd places) but as interesting, and doubtless valuable, this information is, it’s pretty much useless without cross referenced information regarding appearance, habitat, and habit of the target species.  Other sites have much of that information, but matching the information on various sites is daunting, to say the least.  I have found some references to individual species which sounded promising for one reason or another but in many cases have been unable to find photographs of the bugs in question….and on and on. Consulting an entomologist has occurred to me, but this is neither as easy nor necessarily as promising as it might sound.  First, one would necessarily have to find an aquatic entomologist (or at least one with a specific interest in aquatic species…..a fly fisher perhaps).  I know of a good aquatic entomologist at UW, Stevens Point but he happens to specialize in plecoptera and, scientific specialties being what they are, this might not help much even if I were trying to identify a stonefly unless he happened to be a taxonomist or have some other reason to be familiar with my target species. People will probably suggest Ephemera and Hexes, but there an awful lot of obscure mayfly species, and lakes have locale specific subspecies you might never encounter unless you blunder on them.

Right, on all counts.  Both Ephemera and Isonychia look like good candidates based on photos, but both are questionable on the basis of size.  I don’t yet know enough about habit or habitat with regard to either genus.  Hexagenia limbata is definitely out for a variety of reasons. As you stated, local subspecies might look and behave a great deal differently than expected for a variety of reasons.  Hell, it isn’t even unreasonable to suppose that we might be dealing with a species unknown to science.  Granted, it isn’t likely but new species (especially of small and highly localized arthropods) do turn up from time to time. There is also the possibility (admittedly also unlikely) of a known species behaving in an uncharacteristic manner.  For example, an uncommon species might suddenly reproduce successfully in undreamed of numbers within a given location due to an unusual and highly beneficial confluence of circumstances. I will venture with the closest I have ever seen. It would be: L(Litobrancha?).Recurvata, which was once classified with the Hexes.

I just looked up Litobrancha.  Interestingly, the first hit I looked at was a UW Stevens Point website which contains a list of "AQUATIC INSECTS OF WISCONSIN RECENT SYNONYMS AT SPECIFIC OR HIGHER LEVELS" authored by none other than Stanley W. Szczytko, the aquatic entomologist I mentioned above, and Jeffrey J. Dimick, who used to be (and quite possibly still is) president of a local TU chapter in the area.  They list Litobrancha  in the "recent taxonomy" column next to Hexagenia (in part) under "prior taxonomy", and Litobrancha recurvata next to Hexagenia recurvata.  Looking at another dozen or sites, I have not yet found a photo.  I’ll keep working on this one. In PA they are called Dark Green Drakes. They hatch at or into dark, sometimes on real cloudy days, a bit earlier, say 7 PM. They are huge, maybe bigger than the Green Drakes. The bodies are a darkish grey, with rings of paler yellow tan along the abdomen. Wings are a smokey grey, mottled somewhat. They look nasty, as they are a bit heftier in the body(squatter, might be better). Hatched out of a silty pool in Penns one night on Makela and I, fish going silly, no good imitations, massive bugs in mouth and hair, etc.etc. That was in 1993, haven’t seen one since.

Doesn’t sound like my bug.  I don’t know when they came off, but they were very active through a bright sunny day.  Of course, it must be remembered that I’m basing all of this on memories of an event that occurred more than forty years ago and that I was not much interested in close observation of the bugs at the time.  In all likelihood, I’ll never be able to solve this mystery.  I thought (and I still do) that my best bet was to put it out here and hope that someone just happens to be familiar with this hatch in this particular place.  I think it’s just about time for a brilliant lurker with an encyclopedic knowledge of the Ephemeroptera to show him or herself and demonstrate how pitiful the rest of us really are.     Wolfgang thanks tom.

Response:

  Well, roughly anyway.   Maybe this is it? Late June through mid July – Ephemera Simulans, Brown Drake, this is the most prevalent large mayfly hatch in the Upper Peninsula. Willi

Response:

Well, roughly anyway. My father’s cousin, Sam Friederich, owned a couple acres of land and a cottage (a dacha, as a Russian physicist I recently spoke with, "…not what YOU call a cottage here!" called it) on Kangaroo lake in Door County, Wisconsin.  For those not familiar with the area, Door County is the long finger of land which runs to the northeast up into Lake Michigan and thus forms Green Bay to the west. Kangaroo lake, http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=45.0325&lon=-87.15889 was, in the late 1950s, lightly developed.  There were a couple of small resorts, a few permanent year round homes, several cottages like the one we frequently stayed at, all of them on the larger, southern section of the lake south of the causeway, and a single very large estate on the island.  Whatever organic pollutants entered the lake as a result of human habitation were still minimal at that time.  In other words, the water was very clean and the biome had probably changed little since pre-Columbian times.  Kangaroo lake was a wonderful place to swim, even for city bred kids like me, as long as one didn’t allow one’s feet to touch the bottom.  The lake bed was marl, and thus about as icky a thing to come into contact with as was imagineable….except, of course, for the things that actually LIVED in that oozy bottom! One day all those things that lived in the bottom (although I didn’t realize their origin at the time) came out.  The air was filled with bugs.  Millions of bugs.  Maybe billions of bugs.  They were so bold or so crazed or stupid that they would land on anything or anybody.  Adult reassurances that they were perfectly harmless fell on deaf ears and neither I nor my brothers or sister could be coaxed to go outside for any reason…..threats and coercion worked, but you get the picture. In the ensuing years, I have often wondered exactly what those bugs were.  My interest in fly fishing, running close onto twenty years worth now, makes it easy to say with certainty that they were some variety of mayfly, but I still haven’t been able to identify the species. Discounting them by about thirty percent for temporal magnification and the horror factor still leaves them at a good size eight or even a solid six…..and possibly a bit larger.  They were a dark, slate gray to nearly black and, if memory serves after all these years, they were almost certainly duns or sub-imagos….dark, nearly opaque wings. On a couple of occasions in the last two or three years I’ve made occasional efforts to locate resources on line which might solve the mystery for me but have, as yet, had no success. Any ideas? Wolfgang

Response:

Question:

Hi folks, Just wondered if someone can comment on the choice of an outboard engine vs. an I/O on a 23-25′ boat, to be used in the coastal waters of west central Florida.  Combination of use will be both bay & off-shore fishing, off-shore diving, and short-medium range cruising with at least two couples. I’m a long-time fan of Mercruiser I/Os, having owned several and had very little trouble with them.  A few questions about outboards: 1) I’ve heard that outboard technology has come a long way, and the newer engines are quieter and more fuel effecient, correct? 2) Are the outboards more expensive to maintain? 3) Is the net-net performance about the same given the same hosepower on an outboard and I/O? 4 Is there a clear advantage with any particular brand of outboard nowadays? 5) Should we look for any specific year models, i.e. 1997 or newer for example? All thoughts appreciated.  Thanks. Patrick

Response:

Just wondered if someone can comment on the choice of an outboard engine vs. an I/O on a 23-25′ boat, to be used in the coastal waters of west central Florida. A few questions about outboards: 1) I’ve heard that outboard technology has come a long way, and the newer engines are quieter and more fuel effecient, correct?

That is correct, especially with the 4 stroke motors. 2) Are the outboards more expensive to maintain?

Probably even or cheaper. 3) Is the net-net performance about the same given the same hosepower on an outboard and I/O?

Net is higher since you have a higher power to weight ratio. 4 Is there a clear advantage with any particular brand of outboard nowadays?

I don’t see any clear advantages, all the manufacturers have their thing that only they do.  Personnally my best experiences for reliability have been with Yamaha and performance wih Mercury, thou Honda has some interesting cam technology and Suzuki has the best Warrantee.  Never been an OMC fan myself but that doesn’t really mean much. 5) Should we look for any specific year models, i.e. 1997 or newer for example?

Can’t help you there, but I’m sure there will be someone to tell you what not to buy. http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/

Response:

Hi Patrick, With a boat that size I guess that the outboard choices would be the new Yamaha and Honda 200-225hp 4 strokes? In a Mercruiser they use mostly GM V8s now for 200hp+? I know that fisherman like the outboards because there is more room in the rear of the boat for fishing? The ultimate power is a diesel in a boat that size, but it is $$$$. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi folks, Just wondered if someone can comment on the choice of an outboard engine vs. an I/O on a 23-25′ boat, to be used in the coastal waters of west central Florida.  Combination of use will be both bay & off-shore fishing, off-shore diving, and short-medium range cruising with at least two couples. I’m a long-time fan of Mercruiser I/Os, having owned several and had very little trouble with them.  A few questions about outboards: 1) I’ve heard that outboard technology has come a long way, and the newer engines are quieter and more fuel effecient, correct? 2) Are the outboards more expensive to maintain? 3) Is the net-net performance about the same given the same hosepower on an outboard and I/O? 4 Is there a clear advantage with any particular brand of outboard nowadays? 5) Should we look for any specific year models, i.e. 1997 or newer for example? All thoughts appreciated.  Thanks. Patrick

Response:

Question:

All, I found this experience to be fascinating. While fishing the Manistee river in western Michigan, Dad & I casually donned our gear and schlepped the few hundred feet from the car to a stairs leading down to the river. Upon landing we began sizing up the water and realized that we were probably in the wrong place, as the water was very featureless and deepened quickly from the banks that we found ourselves on.  Well, as we were feeling a bit lazy, we decided to give it a try anyway.  Walking upstream a few yards, I happened upon a little gravel bed that jutted into the river allowing me a few extra feet to wade so I walked out and started pondering what to fish.  Tried a few things, deep, shallow, etc with no luck.  Felt kinda like fishing a lake as there were no feature to speak of except (of course) the little gravel bed I was standing on (who was it that once said…"you can always tell the inexperienced fisherman because he is wading where he should be fishing and fishing where he should be wading?)  After about an hour of flailing about I happened to gaze down into the water and was shocked to see at least 5, yes five very large brown trout  feeding right next to my feet.  AHA! finally a challenge.  So I carefully proceded to fish every last fly in my box in every conceivable presentation style past these fish only to watch them move out of the way as my fly du seconde floated by.  After a while, I simply gave up and watched them feed, and began learning…. Russell

Response:

Russell,    You were probably dislodging insects with your feet and the fish were taking advantage of it.  This is not an uncommon occurrence in heavily fished waters where the fish get used to the fisherman. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found this experience to be fascinating. <snip I happened to gaze down into the water and was shocked to see at least 5, yes five very large brown trout  feeding right next to my feet <snip Russell

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Russell,    You were probably dislodging insects with your feet and the fish were taking advantage of it.  This is not an uncommon occurrence in heavily fished waters where the fish get used to the fisherman. Ernie I found this experience to be fascinating. <snip I happened to gaze down into the water and was shocked to see at least 5, yes five very large brown trout  feeding right next to my feet <snip Russell

Ernie, You are probably right, however they seemed to also be feeding in front of me in the typical dodge and slide pattern.  It was awesome to watch. Russell

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s something to think about.  I saw this message on a sailing newsgroup: A guy went into the water in Elliott Bay as part of a [simulated rescue situation]. He was wearing a survival suit (the water *is* cold up here), and made the mistake of diving in head-first.  All the trapped air in the suit collected at the highest point once he was in the water, which was the feet.  He was not able to get himself rightside-up, and drowned before the boat could get back to him. I’ve never seen a survival suit except in pictures, but I understand it to be something like a dry suit with insulation and flotation built-in. I guess there *IS* a reason why I ritualisticly squeeze all the air out of my suit before each time I get into my boat.

Doesn’t sound like much of a problem for paddlers’ dry suits to me.  At least decked boaters are wearing a spray skirt which ought to be tight enough to keep air passing that quickly between upper body and legs. And everyone I’ve seen putting on dry suits burps as much air out as possible simply for the reason of making them more flexible.

Response:

: Here’s something to think about.  I saw this message on a sailing : newsgroup: I should have mentioned:  these survival suits (when I owned one) did not have neck gaskets; the only way I remember that air/water could get in our out was from around the neck.

Response:

(KCKaddis) writes: sounds like an urban legend to me … you’d think that a suit designed to save

your life would have floatation in the right spot to float you head up if unconciuos Actually, this is a common problem with dry suits. SCUBA divers often wear additional weight on their ankles to prevent a feet up uncontrolled ascent. … by the by , while fly fishing , I learned of the same prob with waders…

the solution , if you find yerself in this fix , is to pull your knees to your chest & burp the air out… or stay dry  ; ) More likely, it is a case of pulling your chest up toward your feet. Still, a dry suit has air stored up to the neck with a gasket that is intended to be leakproof. This is a whole lot different than a pair of waders which allow air to freely flow in/out. SCUBA suits have valves to allow air to escape at roughly chest level, but survival suits or the dry suits used when paddling do not. This should not be a life threatening situation with proper training, but few know of this risk and even fewer practice how to escape from this situation (the logical escape procedure would involve raising the body toward the surface in as flat a plane as possible, thus allowing the  the air to redistribute evenly in the suit – not having the opportunity to practice this, I’d imagine strong swimming/sculling skills and good breath control would come in handy). Whether or not this particular even is an urban legend is moot. There is a potential when wearing a dry suit for the air to redistribute in this fashion as the suit does nothing to prohibit the motion of air. Thus, bleeding the things before entering the water is important. Rick

Response:

Actually, [air trapped in legs, floating you head down] is a common problem with dry suits. SCUBA divers often wear additional weight on their ankles to prevent a feet up uncontrolled ascent. This should not be a life threatening situation with proper training, but few know of this risk and even fewer practice how to escape from this situation (the logical escape procedure would involve raising the body toward the surface in as flat a plane as possible, thus allowing the  the air to redistribute evenly in the suit – not having the opportunity to practice this, I’d imagine strong swimming/sculling skills and good breath control would come in handy).

I’ll be helping to run a pool session this winter, and I plan to try it.  My dry suit has ankle gaskets, so the easiest escape for me probably will be to reach for my ankles and burp them.  Who knows, maybe the pressure inside the suit will be enough for it to happen without my help.  If that’s the case, then I’ll try to borrow a suit that has booties built in, or I’ll try taping my ankle seals to make them tighter.

Response:

KCKaddis writes :: << sounds like an urban legend to me I remember when dry suits first appeared in the UK (early 70’s) – they were made out of latex rubber and actually worked pretty well while they lasted (which wasn’t long). They had a roll waist attachment and glued on booties. I would wear mine snorkeling and if I didn’t burp the suit my flippers would pop off my feet whenever I dove (my feet would turn into balloons). I don’t remember any problems getting stuck upside down though. The clear latex suits (mine was pink) were the worst looking things in the world – looked like they should have come out of a giant dispensing machine in the public toilets<g Mick Evans

Response:

        I did run across one survival rescue suit in a catalog a coupla years ago that had rings embedded in the legs so that they wouldn’t expand if air rushed there in an upside down position.  Blurb suggested that indeed it had been a problem.   KCKaddis wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … you’d think that a suit designed to save your life would have floatation in the right spot to float you head up if unconciuos… by the by , while fly fishing , I learned of the same prob with waders… the solution , if you find yerself in this fix , is to pull your knees to your chest & burp the air out… or stay dry  ; )

Response:

: Here’s something to think about.  I saw this message on a sailing : newsgroup: … I owned one of these, though never tried it out in the water, when I fished in Bristol Bay.  I no longer remember the details about them except that the suits are like toddler’s pajamas, and are bulky and awkward to get in and out of.   I find the story to be quite credible.

Response:

Sportsmansguide actually has some surplus survival suits   for $200. They have huge airbladder on the back, apparently to prevent this sort of mishap. I once read of a similar fatal accident involving a fat woman with an inner tube around her waist.

Response:

sounds like an urban legend to me … you’d think that a suit designed to save your life would have floatation in the right spot to float you head up if unconciuos… by the by , while fly fishing , I learned of the same prob with waders… the solution , if you find yerself in this fix , is to pull your knees to your chest & burp the air out… or stay dry  ; )

Response:

Here’s something to think about.  I saw this message on a sailing newsgroup: A guy went into the water in Elliott Bay as part of a [simulated rescue situation]. He was wearing a survival suit (the water *is* cold up here), and made the mistake of diving in head-first.  All the trapped air in the suit collected at the highest point once he was in the water, which was the feet.  He was not able to get himself rightside-up, and drowned before the boat could get back to him.

I’ve never seen a survival suit except in pictures, but I understand it to be something like a dry suit with insulation and flotation built-in. I guess there *IS* a reason why I ritualisticly squeeze all the air out of my suit before each time I get into my boat.

Response:

Question:

I will be in Stowe the last week in August, and was hoping someone could direct me to some areas to fish. I was hoping to hit some Trico’s, if they were around. I’ve been known to drag a few nymphs also. It will be my first – and possibly last – time fishing the area, so any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Jerry Virzi

Response:

I will be in Stowe the last week in August, and was hoping someone could direct me to some areas to fish. I was hoping to hit some Trico’s, if they were around. I’ve been known to drag a few nymphs also. It will be my first – and possibly last – time fishing the area, so any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Jerry Virzi

Jerry, Your trip sounds so fatalistic.  Areas you  ought to fish include the Lamoille in Hyde Park and from Morrisville to Wolcott.  You might also want to consider the Winooski in Waterbury and Bolton.  Trico’s may still be around depending on the weather but you are likely to hit the white mayfly (ephorons) and Blue Quill hatch.  White Wulffs and Millers work well when the white mayfly hatch is on as well as white soft hackles. Don’t forget a good supply of caddis and beadheads.  Good luck…let me know if you have any questions. James Ehlers Underhill, Vermont Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service Vermont Fly Fishing, Hunting, River and Woodland Outings http://pobox.com/~uncle

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Everyone: I am going to revive the olde SFFC Short Fat Flyfishers Club that Dennis Bitten came up with but is now disbanded. The new name that 14 of us has chosen is "Short Fat Cigar Smokin Flyfishers Club." The rules are going to change a bit as I and others feel that a club of this type can make an impact on the market and we would truly like to make it a viable club. The market is for extended sized sport clothes, waders, gloves and various other equipment (Ever try to get a size 50" waist from Orvis in anything). Keep your Loops Tight, Flys Dry and for Pete’s sake keep your wader fly closed! Mike

Hi Mike, I’m glad to see you get this club going again. You wouldn’t consider a tall, skinny old duffers who falls in the water a lot as a candidate for membership? Just kidding, Good luck. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

Do the adjectives "short" and "fat" modify "cigar," or "flyfishers"? vince norris

Response:

Al, Until your post, I was wondering what was supposed to be "short and fat" — the cigar or the flyfisher. DaveB

Response:

Missed the beginning of this thread. Where do I go to sign up? Bob

Response:

Hi: Well it could be both or either I guess. The intent is for us anglers that are short and fat in stature to gain recognition in the fly fishing market. The Cigar Smoking is just an added pleasure for those of us who partake in it. MMT

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Everyone: I am going to revive the olde SFFC Short Fat Flyfishers Club that Dennis Bitten came up with but is now disbanded. The new name that 14 of us has chosen is "Short Fat Cigar Smokin Flyfishers Club." The rules are going to change a bit as I and others feel that a club of this type can make an impact on the market and we would truly like to make it a viable club. The market is for extended sized sport clothes, waders, gloves and various other equipment (Ever try to get a size 50" waist from Orvis in anything). Keep your Loops Tight, Flys Dry and for Pete’s sake keep your wader fly closed! Mike Hi Mike, I’m glad to see you get this club going again. You wouldn’t consider a tall, skinny old duffers who falls in the water a lot as a candidate for membership? Just kidding, Good luck. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Your club is greta, though I’ll skip the cigars.  It is frustrating to try to find waders for someone 5′6" and 240 lbs.  However, you might considerthe fact that we are the final result of millions of years of evolution and that so-called "thin"people are merely, unlike us, "famine resistance challenged"!  Bill

Response:

Not trying to be a smart a**, but try finding waders for 6′-6" 170# size 10 foot.  Most mfgs think that if you are 6-6, you should be 320 or so! One of these days I’ll find something in my size Steve Stillabower Indianapolis, IN

Response:

Hi Everyone: I am going to revive the olde SFFC Short Fat Flyfishers Club that Dennis Bitten came up with but is now disbanded. The new name that 14 of us has chosen is "Short Fat Cigar Smokin Flyfishers Club." The rules are going to change a bit as I and others feel that a club of this type can make an impact on the market and we would truly like to make it a viable club. The market is for extended sized sport clothes, waders, gloves and various other equipment (Ever try to get a size 50" waist from Orvis in anything). We have made contacts with various manufacturers that are willing to make extended sized clothing and equipment available to all us guys and GALS who have a short stature and look like a sparkplug. We even have a deal for preferred seating on two airlines so we and other passengers can feel more comfort on the flights. small, the advantages are great and heck lets get some recognition in this ever expanding market. Keep your Loops Tight, Flys Dry and for Pete’s sake keep your wader fly closed! Mike

Response:

Question:

Peterson)" says: anyone have some good try fly patterns for fur and no dry hackle i have a tremendous amont of varied fur as i live near a furrier possum, beaver, mink, otter, wolf, fox, muskrat etc. thanks — gp

Comparaduns.  

Response:

Looking for information on the upper Kings River, above Pine Flat dam. I read an earlier posting on the area around Courtright Res., and would love some specifics on that area, as I live very close.  What about the Bear Creek Diversion and above?  Any one have any comments and or experiences up in those parts?  Thanks in advance. Sean

Hi Sean: Bear Creek above the dam to Twin Falls (especially the 100 yards or so just below the falls) is fairly good for brook trout from late May to early July.  But be prepared for mosquitos from late June on.  It’s a real nice day trip. The only fishing I’ve done on the Kings River is on the South Fork in Paradise Valley (7 miles in from Cedar Grove Road end).  Really nice just before Memorial Day when the black ants start flying.  It’s my Spring ritual to work out the kinks. Mark

Response:

    The upper Kings river used to be an awsome fishery. Large rainbows.  I havent fished it since 1986 but when I did I caught four large bows on a stonefly nymph.   They ranged from 20-24 inches and were thick bodied.  I don’t know if the drought affected the fishery or not.  Of course this time of the year the enormous runoff makes fishing difficult at best and you have to compete with the river rafters. You should also be advised to keep a sharp eye on your step the rattlers are everywhere and they are gigantic.  I have even seen them swimming in the river.  My advise to you is to take the dirt road at the second bridge, take the road on the side of the river that you are on before you cross the bridge otherwise you will encounter to much rafter traffic enroute to or coming from Garnet Dike area which is a favorite raft launching spot.  Good luck.      Regarding bear diversion ;  Good area small trout but plentifull, mostly brookies. I know some fantastic fishing areas in the Kaiser wilderness area that I dont necessarily want to share with the world  but if you will E-mail me personally I will share them privately because you are a FSU Bulldog.  What do you think about the Shark getting hired?  You should also be aware that Bear CCreek is out at least till Memorial day because of the snow. My sources with SCE say that Kaiser Pass probebly

Response:

i have recently aquirred a tremendous amount of fur due to the fact  we live down the road from a furrier. i was wondering if anyone had any pattern recipes for some of this fur . Some of it is red fox silver fox, norwegian wolf, otter, beaver, mink, raccoon, oppossum, muskrat sa well as others i cant determine. As of the moment i have no dry hackle and an abundance of this fur so i am tying patterns that exclusively call for it. the dubbing needless to say is varied and tremendous — gp

Response:

anyone have some good try fly patterns for fur and no dry hackle i have a tremendous amont of varied fur as i live near a furrier possum, beaver, mink, otter, wolf, fox, muskrat etc. thanks — gp

Response:

what is going on with this group i sent 4 postings and they have all gone with the rest of them is there some time limit on the postingsand is it possible to read old back posting  thanks — gp

Response:

: i have recently aquirred a tremendous amount of fur due to the fact  we : live down the road from a furrier. i was wondering if anyone had any : pattern recipes for some of this fur . Some of it is red fox silver fox, : norwegian wolf, otter, beaver, mink, raccoon, oppossum, muskrat sa well : as others i cant determine. As of the moment i have no dry hackle and an : abundance of this fur so i am tying patterns that exclusively call for it. : the dubbing needless to say is varied and tremendous : — : gp —It sounds like you can tie just about any nymph there is.  For dries you definately want some hackle (or duck quills for no hackle dries).                                 jamie

Response:

Tie the Rhycophilia Caddis pupa (sp?).  It’ just a fur dubbed body.  Add some long hair to the head as legs.  All you need are some 200R or 205BL hooks. Substitute hair for tail, wingcase and legs in most patterns and you’ll be able to tie most nymphs.  Invent your own patterns!  Gold Ribbed Mink Stole… –jim

Response:

i have recently aquirred a tremendous amount of fur due to the fact  we live down the road from a furrier. i was wondering if anyone had any pattern recipes for some of this fur . Some of it is red fox silver fox, norwegian wolf, otter, beaver, mink, raccoon, oppossum, muskrat sa well as others i cant determine. As of the moment i have no dry hackle and an abundance of this fur so i am tying patterns that exclusively call for it. the dubbing needless to say is varied and tremendous — gp

I got your messages.  Drop a not on my email directly. Lenny Bloksberg . .

Response:

anyone have some good try fly patterns for fur and no dry hackle i have a tremendous amont of varied fur as i live near a furrier possum, beaver, mink, otter, wolf, fox, muskrat etc. thanks — gp

Zonkers, Bunny leaches, Kiwi Mudlers, These use patches of tanned hide with the hair on.  They are the easiest way I know of to use up lots of tanned hides with fur on.  Otherwise, TRADE!  I’m sure lots of folks would be happy to trade something they have in excess for your fur, myself included. . Lenny Bloksberg . .

Response:

GP– sounds like a great find. You might try a fly called the Usual, It’s kind of a Comparadun/emerger cross. It uses guard and underfur tied up for a wing and underfur for dubbing. It also has guard hair for a tail. You might want to consider getting yourself a dry fly neck, you have some great dubbing for it (esp. the beaver otter and mukrat) if they haven’t been processed to much. Otherwise any of your furs would work for different nymph patterns.

Another thing he might consider doing is going into a flyfishing shop and see if they are interested in trading some of the fur for some hackle necks. Not all flyfishing shops will accept furs but some will.  Heck, he might be able to find some people here that would be willing to do some trades. Some might even be willing to purchase some of the fur from you outright and then he could use the money to buy some hackle necks. — John Fereira   "Guru of Miscellany" Pleasanton, CA Viacom Cable Division

Response:

Tie the Rhycophilia Caddis pupa (sp?).  It’ just a fur dubbed body.  Add some long hair to the head as legs.  All you need are some 200R or 205BL hooks. Substitute hair for tail, wingcase and legs in most patterns and you’ll be able to tie most nymphs.  Invent your own patterns!  Gold Ribbed Mink Stole…

So I’m not the only one that has looked at a woman wearing a fur and thought "look at all that fly tying material". — John Fereira   "Guru of Miscellany" Pleasanton, CA Viacom Cable Division

Response:

Looking for information on the upper Kings River, above Pine Flat dam. I read an earlier posting on the area around Courtright Res., and would love some specifics on that area, as I live very close.  What about the Bear Creek Diversion and above?  Any one have any comments and or experiences up in those parts?  Thanks in advance. Sean

Response:

Question:

: I have begun to fish there the ;ast few years and would like to know more : about the rivers history, effective patterns and the use of feather wing : salmon flies. : _Atlantic Salmon Flies and Fishing_ by Joseph D. Bates, Jr. (1970, : Stackpole Books) will give you much of this information.  It’s been long : out of print and so it’s hard to find, but there has recently been talk of : it being reissued.  It’s the best source of historical info on featherwings   Hunters Angling Supplies in New Hampshire (?) list Bate’s book in their ‘95 catalogue. Sorry don’t have thier number handy but I seem to recall the book cost aboout $65. Cheers, tim  Troutdale, OR                                    

Response:

I am interested in exchanging information with people that have some experience in salmon fishing on the Miramichi. I have begun to fish there the ;ast few years and would like to know more about the rivers history, effective patterns and the use of feather wing salmon flies. Thanks. George George

Response:

I am interested in exchanging information with people that have some experience in salmon fishing on the Miramichi. I have begun to fish there the ;ast few years and would like to know more about the rivers history, effective patterns and the use of feather wing salmon flies. Thanks. George George

I would be pleased to participate in a discussion of these subjects, since the Miramichi flows "through my backyard". I can see the river from by back door (unfortunately ice-covered at the moment). I will watch this newsgroups for follow-up postings relating to this thread.

Response:

I am interested in exchanging information with people that have some experience in salmon fishing on the Miramichi. I have begun to fish there the ;ast few years and would like to know more about the rivers history, effective patterns and the use of feather wing salmon flies.

_Atlantic Salmon Flies and Fishing_ by Joseph D. Bates, Jr. (1970, Stackpole Books) will give you much of this information.  It’s been long out of print and so it’s hard to find, but there has recently been talk of it being reissued.  It’s the best source of historical info on featherwings by tiers such as Ira Gruber.  There are also a couple of paperback books by Wayne Curtis which have similar information, and these you can find in stores in the Miramichi valley.  The titles of these books escape me at the moment.  If you have not yet done so, visit the Miramichi Salmon Museum in Doaktown; where much of the region’s angling heritage has been preserved. The exhibits of flies may particularly interest you. Woods Hole, MA   USA  

Response:

I would be pleased to participate in a discussion of these subjects, since the Miramichi flows "through my backyard". I can see the river from by back door (unfortunately ice-covered at the moment). I will watch this newsgroups for follow-up postings relating to this thread.

I am interested in fishing late summer of 1995.  Is this a reasonable time and what suggestions for lodging etc.  I am strickly flyfish, catch and release and would love dry fly action.  What are the chances for Sept.?

Response:

I have had limited experience in July and September but have had sucess on both.  The weather was not suitable for dry flies so most fishing was done on a dry line with green machines in size 8 – 12 doubles.  The September trip, just before the close of the season was very good until it rained heavily.  All four members of my party caught fish in good size.  The fished jumped and ran repeatedly. There are many other more experienced people that seem interested in this topic so I will defer to their information.  I would look forward to the trip in either month but expect it to be fishing – dependent upon conditions. George (MMMGH) George

Response:

Jay, At least one or two others have expressed interest in this topic.  I will look forward to reading your opinions on the subjects. One question I would ask is generally speaking, what color combinations have you found most effective over the years? George George

Response:

Question:

Hi Again Again, check out REI Elements.  After two years of research I went with their Elements shell because it’s 10% more water proof than Goretex, 10% less breathable, but well designed with zips under arms, etc. for about 1/2 the price of Goretex and generally less weight than all but the most expensive GT.  I got mine for $115, vs Marmot’s $260.  Hope to get the pants this year.  Great windbreaker as well.  No teflon!.

Response:

: Frank- :     Tough it out.  Last year, I bought a Gore-Tex wannabe, pants and parka. :     I had no problems other than the fact that the coating on the jacket was :     teflon, and I couldn’t stop after falling while showboarding(!).   Actually I believe goretex is actually just specially treated teflon. I met some chemistry guys who showed me how it’s done. It’s just got really small specially punched holes in it. "When you play the synthesizer keyboard as though it were a piano or organ, funny things happen" – Dick Hyman in the liner notes of his 196? album "MOOG"

Response:

 ("I’d rather be Flyfishing!") writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello everyone, Don’t know if I should talk about specific products in the forum. Oh well, here goes: just got an EMS Expedition Parka and I love it!  Wish I could afford the matching EMS Expedition Pants, but the funds ain’t there and winter’s a comin’. Having Gore Tex pants is important to me.  I can live with them being insulated or uninsulated, but I do want quality stuff. <<stuff gone My gut says, go with the L.L. Bean product. I think it will compliment my EMS Expedition Parka just fine. My other gut says, tough it out with a cheapo pants and save up for the EMS Expedition Pants for next year. Thanks in advance for any advise you can share. Frank: flyfisher, icefisher, skier, snowshoveler et al.

Frank-     Tough it out.  Last year, I bought a Gore-Tex wannabe, pants and parka.     I had no problems other than the fact that the coating on the jacket was     teflon, and I couldn’t stop after falling while showboarding(!).  I was     willing to cope with that, since Gore-Tex would have cost twice as much.     This summer, I went hiking on a 90 degree day, and when I pulled my jacket     out that night, It had partially melted and stuck to itself!:(     Fortunately, I was able to return it and get the real thing.  It was worth     the extra $200 for the top of the line stuff |      Box 631             (610) 758-0461                | |      Lehigh University                                 | |      29 Trembley Dr.                                   |

Response:

Having Gore Tex pants is important to me.  I can live with them being insulated or uninsulated, but I do want quality stuff.

snip snip Thanks in advance for any advise you can share.

Well, since you asked for it, and bearing in mind that advice is worth what you pay for it, here’s some for free |:-) Both coated and Gore-Tex pants are going to block wind and water.  Both will get clammy on the inside when it’s humid.  Both will get torn up by the briars if you do much walking in the woods.  The main difference, in my personal experience (I’ve used both), is in the price. What I have settled on for now is a pair of urethane-coated nylon trousers, uninsulated, with drawstrings at waist and cuffs, calf zippers, and sealed seams.  I paid about $25 for them (LL Bean, I think).  I can use whatever insulation I want beneath them and won’t break down in despair when they are ruined in a laurel hell some day. Regards, Stephen Anderson

Response:

Hello everyone, Don’t know if I should talk about specific products in the forum. Oh well, here goes: just got an EMS Expedition Parka and I love it!  Wish I could afford the matching EMS Expedition Pants, but the funds ain’t there and winter’s a comin’. Having Gore Tex pants is important to me.  I can live with them being insulated or uninsulated, but I do want quality stuff. EMS sells this Gore-Tex-like System 3 getup.  The pants seem pretty nice for being water-resistant and wind-resistant, full leg zips, seams are sealed, back pockets that zip and an elastic waistband that has side snaps. $85.00. L.L.Bean sells their Gore-Tex North Col Pants, either insulated or uninsulated, full leg zips (2 way), velcro closures at waist and cuffs, and a storm flap over the leg zips. $139 ($129 uninsulated) Columbia has several models of pants, all do not have Gore-Tex, most are uninsulated, most have only zips at the cuffs and elastic waist bands with snaps for adjustment. $29-$89 My gut says, go with the L.L. Bean product. I think it will compliment my EMS Expedition Parka just fine. My other gut says, tough it out with a cheapo pants and save up for the EMS Expedition Pants for next year. Thanks in advance for any advise you can share. Frank: flyfisher, icefisher, skier, snowshoveler et al.

Response: