Question:

My new next door neighbor has been talking about the Magalloway river since he moved in. He grew up in Bethel and also lived in Errol, NH for a couple of years and knows the area well so we headed up this afternoon. Seems to me that the tripper had tried to get me up there 10-12 years ago but I never made the trip. It’s about 100 mile trip from my house, we did it in about 1.5 hours, a nice scenic drive up through Grafton Notch. The Magalloway is a short river, running betweem Aziscohos Lake and Umbagog Lake. Umbagog is the same lake that the Rapid runs into. The Magalloway is a bit north of the Rapid. First we fished one of his favorite spots, right off Rt16 out of Errol (but back in Maine) a bend pool near a large field. Mitch didn’t get anything there but I unfortunately caught a smallie, about 12" and it had to be the healthiest smallie I’ve caught this year. So sadly, the smallies are running up the Magalloway as well as the Rapid. We moved to a pool upstream he called trout pool, where he guaranteed there were some good fish. On the short walk in we ran into a woman who was down with her dog to watch the kayakers. We got to the pool and Mitch told me to fish the head of the pool and he moved down the bank to the middle. After 10-15 mins 3 kayaks came down the river and immediately cut accross the pool in front of us. Then they started to play in the sluce where it dumped into the pool. They would go accross the main pool, sit on the other side, giggle, then one of them would come out and shoot through the pool again. It was deliberate and quite annoying. Things had gotten to where I was beginning to consider throwing rocks or whacking them on the helmut with my rod when they finally drifted downstream. I realize that rafters and kayakers are our allies in keeping the rivers clean and wild but these people needed to learn to give some consideration. After the twits left I decided to try a dry fly as I’d seen a couple fish hitting the top, so I tied on one of Vern’s reddish brown things and after a few casts decided to move to the tail of the pool so I could get a decent drift. About 3 casts later I saw a very subtle hit, setup and got the surprise of the day when the biggest salmon I’ve seen on the end of my line in about 3 or 4 years launched itself into the air and came off. I thought I’d broken him off, but I still had the fly. The fish was an easy 19-20" and very very fat. It also had the "river" salmon yellow belly. Mitch told me he’d had several hits before the kayaks came through on a streamer but that he hadn’t had any since. I gave Mitch one of Vern’s flies and he immediately caught a nice salmon, and several brook trout. In the meantime I lost another nice salmon, smaller than the first but still a nice fish. There were some little tiny green bodied bugs starting to swarm, they had little white wings and were small, if I had to tie one up I’d look for a #30 hook. They were flying up my nose, into my ears and were all over my arms when I realized that they were also biting. I rolled down my sleeves and went back to work as dark was coming on. I managed to miss a few and then a very fat 15-16" brookie as it got almost completly dark. The fish gave me a very strong run into the pool before coming to hand. Mitch and I decided that neither one of us could see good enough to fish so we headed back to the car. Not a bad afternoon’s trip. Flyfish

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My new next door neighbor has been talking about the Magalloway river since he moved in. He grew up in Bethel and also lived in Errol, NH for a couple of years and knows the area well so we headed up this afternoon. Seems to me that the tripper had tried to get me up there 10-12 years ago but I never made the trip. It’s about 100 mile trip from my house, we did it in about 1.5 hours, a nice scenic drive up through Grafton Notch. The Magalloway is a short river, running betweem Aziscohos Lake and Umbagog Lake. Umbagog is the same lake that the Rapid runs into. The Magalloway is a bit north of the Rapid. First we fished one of his favorite spots, right off Rt16 out of Errol (but back in Maine) a bend pool near a large field. Mitch didn’t get anything there but I unfortunately caught a smallie, about 12" and it had to be the healthiest smallie I’ve caught this year. So sadly, the smallies are running up the Magalloway as well as the Rapid. We moved to a pool upstream he called trout pool, where he guaranteed there were some good fish. On the short walk in we ran into a woman who was down with her dog to watch the kayakers. We got to the pool and Mitch told me to fish the head of the pool and he moved down the bank to the middle. After 10-15 mins 3 kayaks came down the river and immediately cut accross the pool in front of us. Then they started to play in the sluce where it dumped into the pool. They would go accross the main pool, sit on the other side, giggle, then one of them would come out and shoot through the pool again. It was deliberate and quite annoying. Things had gotten to where I was beginning to consider throwing rocks or whacking them on the helmut with my rod when they finally drifted downstream. I realize that rafters and kayakers are our allies in keeping the rivers clean and wild but these people needed to learn to give some consideration. After the twits left I decided to try a dry fly as I’d seen a couple fish hitting the top, so I tied on one of Vern’s reddish brown things and after a few casts decided to move to the tail of the pool so I could get a decent drift. About 3 casts later I saw a very subtle hit, setup and got the surprise of the day when the biggest salmon I’ve seen on the end of my line in about 3 or 4 years launched itself into the air and came off. I thought I’d broken him off, but I still had the fly. The fish was an easy 19-20" and very very fat. It also had the "river" salmon yellow belly. Mitch told me he’d had several hits before the kayaks came through on a streamer but that he hadn’t had any since. I gave Mitch one of Vern’s flies and he immediately caught a nice salmon, and several brook trout. In the meantime I lost another nice salmon, smaller than the first but still a nice fish. There were some little tiny green bodied bugs starting to swarm, they had little white wings and were small, if I had to tie one up I’d look for a #30 hook. They were flying up my nose, into my ears and were all over my arms when I realized that they were also biting. I rolled down my sleeves and went back to work as dark was coming on. I managed to miss a few and then a very fat 15-16" brookie as it got almost completly dark. The fish gave me a very strong run into the pool before coming to hand. Mitch and I decided that neither one of us could see good enough to fish so we headed back to the car. Not a bad afternoon’s trip. Flyfish

Good for you, Dave. Glad you got out and finally hit one of my favorite small streams up there, even if I couldn’t be there to enjoy it with you. Rapid next weekend! /daytripper (having another working weekend 8-(

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We moved to a pool upstream he called trout pool, where he guaranteed there were some good fish. On the short walk in we ran into a woman who was down with her dog to watch the kayakers. We got to the pool and Mitch told me to fish the head of the pool and he moved down the bank to the middle. After 10-15 mins 3 kayaks came down the river and immediately cut accross the pool in front of us. Then they started to play in the sluce where it dumped into the pool. They would go accross the main pool, sit on the other side, giggle, then one of them would come out and shoot through the pool again. It was deliberate and quite annoying. Things had gotten to where I was beginning to consider throwing rocks or whacking them on the helmut with my rod when they finally drifted downstream. I realize that rafters and kayakers are our allies in keeping the rivers clean and wild but these people needed to learn to give some consideration.

Dontcha just love ‘em.  My favourite is the asshole with a 100′ or more of river to work with, goes right through the run your fishing, then his 15 or so asshole friends follow him.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -After the twits left I decided to try a dry fly as I’d seen a couple fish hitting the top, so I tied on one of Vern’s reddish brown things and after a few casts decided to move to the tail of the pool so I could get a decent drift. About 3 casts later I saw a very subtle hit, setup and got the surprise of the day when the biggest salmon I’ve seen on the end of my line in about 3 or 4 years launched itself into the air and came off. I thought I’d broken him off, but I still had the fly. The fish was an easy 19-20" and very very fat. It also had the "river" salmon yellow belly. Mitch told me he’d had several hits before the kayaks came through on a streamer but that he hadn’t had any since. I gave Mitch one of Vern’s flies and he immediately caught a nice salmon, and several brook trout. In the meantime I lost another nice salmon, smaller than the first but still a nice fish. There were some little tiny green bodied bugs starting to swarm, they had little white wings and were small, if I had to tie one up I’d look for a #30 hook. They were flying up my nose, into my ears and were all over my arms when I realized that they were also biting. I rolled down my sleeves and went back to work as dark was coming on. I managed to miss a few and then a very fat 15-16" brookie as it got almost completly dark. The fish gave me a very strong run into the pool before coming to hand. Mitch and I decided that neither one of us could see good enough to fish so we headed back to the car. Not a bad afternoon’s trip. Flyfish

Sounds like a fun day despite the fiberglass hatch and the bitty bugs – that’s a nice brookie, btw. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

sniped, because of length… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We moved to a pool upstream he called trout pool, where he guaranteed there were some good fish. On the short walk in we ran into a woman who was down with her dog to watch the kayakers. We got to the pool and Mitch told me to fish the head of the pool and he moved down the bank to the middle. After 10-15 mins 3 kayaks came down the river and immediately cut accross the pool in front of us. Then they started to play in the sluce where it dumped into the pool. They would go accross the main pool, sit on the other side, giggle, then one of them would come out and shoot through the pool again. It was deliberate and quite annoying. Things had gotten to where I was beginning to consider throwing rocks or whacking them on the helmut with my rod when they finally drifted downstream. I realize that rafters and kayakers are our allies in keeping the rivers clean and wild but these people needed to learn to give some consideration.

Oh my God, I know that problem, on my club waters, there are days you can

Question:

One thing that rather surprises me about such discussions, is that we already have a very large range of very effective patterns, which catch fish most satisfactorily, when used correctly.  It might be possible to improve on these, although in many cases I doubt it.

Ah, but there’e the rub, or rather, at least two of them.  If one is buyng flies, and the seller is both knowledgable, and willing to share that knowledge, the purchaser may indeed wind up with the "correct" patterns and colors for the water in question.  However, if one is tying, then things get a bit tricky.  If one simply looks at what they see on or in the water, (or worse, simply look at non-POV relevant pictures of the thing they wish to imitate or simulate) and then look up patterns/color variants to match it to their eye, it may or may not be a match. It could get even worse.  For example, if they want a bi-visible, now there are two colors to consider, and the possible conflict of the sighting color.   I absolutely agree that the likelihood of there not being a printed pattern/variant recipe somewhere that will fill the bill is small, perhaps non-existent.  But, IMO, simply matching what you see to what you think you need is iffy at best, without keeping "what the fish sees" in your mind.  For example, a light-colored, lightly-dressed wet will, when viewed against a light background, look much different when viewed against the backdrop of a rocky lie or from below against a darkening sky, just as a similarly light-colored dry will when viewed from below against a bright blue sky, etc. TC, R

Response:

Letcher Lambuth, in 1936, did some studies with Pacific coast salt water bait fish.  Using gelatin filters to simulate the top 20 feet of the water column, he observed that candlefish and herring looked far different in the water than they did in the hand.  He then designed the Lambuth Herring and the Lambuth Candlefish using the colors that he saw via the filters.  Note that he did not have the advantage of studies of the mechanics of fish vision. We know, for examples, that after a certain depth red turns black, that green is the last color to remain identifiable, and that flash (tinsel, etc.,) requires light to be of any significance.  However, this is to our eyes not necessarily to the eyes of a fish. With due respect to Lambuth, a true pioneer, it seems to me that we are better served by dressing our flies, when we are tying something that is meant to be bait specific, with colors as exact to our eyes as possible. Wouldn’t it stand to reason that colors X, Y, Z; properly porportioned to match a bait would be identifiable to a fish as that bait at what ever depth and conditions the fish was used to viewing it? I’d appreciate your discussion. Crusty

Response:

[snip] This underwater view is very much the subject of Lafontaine’s "The Dry Fly."  He and his partner conducted quite a few scuba dives to see how <SNIP Visit The Streamer Page at

http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html Skues book is indeed first class.  If you want a modern view I would suggest "The Trout And The Fly. A new approach"  By John Goddard and Brian Clarke. This book is, in my opinion, one of the finest works ever printed on the subject, and covers the subjects you mention very precisely and thoroughly, with excellent photography. My English copy was borrowed by somebody, and not returned. Most annoying. I still have a German copy though, so all is not lost. The ISBN number is 3-275-00803-X.  This number may be specific to the German version, I am not sure. However, a net search should turn up a copy for you. I have still not got LaFontaine

Question:

If you bring that I’ll make sure to get a bottle of Zubrowka – Polish vodka flavored with buffalo grass.  The current stuff is actually fake, because the buffalo grass has some kind of blood thinner and the FDA banned it in 1978, but it’s still good.  My uncles used to have bottles of the real stuff and brought it out on holidays.  They’re all over 80 and still healthy as horses, so maybe it’s really good stuff<g.

I brought home a bottle of the real Zubrowka when we returned from a recent trip to Poland.  Should have brought two or three, ’cause the stuff just doesn’t last around my house.  Hands down the finest tasting vodka I’ve had. Bill

Response:

Zubrowka is great stuff. I spent a few months studying in Krakow back before the velvet revolution

        (nifty anecdote snipped)         god, i love the smell of well-written english in the morning…         thanks, sid, from your friend in the old north state wayno

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Screw this wussy stuff and bring on the Slivovitz!!  I’ll try to get some for Penns 2002! Scott If you bring that I’ll make sure to get a bottle of Zubrowka – Polish vodka flavored with buffalo grass.  The current stuff is actually fake, because the buffalo grass has some kind of blood thinner and the FDA banned it in 1978, but it’s still good.  My uncles used to have bottles of the real stuff and brought it out on holidays.  They’re all over 80 and still healthy as horses, so maybe it’s really good stuff<g.

I have a bottle brought to me from Poland by a Polish friend I work with. VERY GOOD STUFF. M. Wm.

Response:

If you bring that I’ll make sure to get a bottle of Zubrowka – Polish vodka flavored with buffalo grass.  

Zubrowka is great stuff. I spent a few months studying in Krakow back before the velvet revolution and can confidently say that one of the few joys of soviet style socialism is plenty of cheap booze. I brought 200 USD to last the entire four months I was there and lived like a king. Well, a king who wipes his ass with newspaper, anyway. TP was tough to come by at the time. And, well, you start to see why it’s a good thing that booze was cheap in soviet socialist economies . My roommate at the time had just arrived from West Berlin where he’d been living in luxury accommodations while studying there. He used to wake up every morning, look out the window and remark with utter defeat, "Well, another shitty day in Poland." The poor guy was so stopped up from the adjustment to Poland’s somewhat challenging diet that after the first five days, he still hadn’t taken a crap. Sympathetic lot that we were, the rest of us in the program started a pool on when he’d eventually find relief, eschewing normal conversation with the poor bastard and instead starting every interaction with completely unveiled references to his predicament. "So, Mike…taken a crap yet?" was a popular starter and the hangdog look that would inevitably accompany the ensuing despondent shake of his head was enough to make you almost feel sorry for the guy. Unless, of course, it was your day in the pool. Poland’s a tough place…especially when there’s money at stake . Anyway, that’s a bit of a digression, but thanks for the memories. Maybe I’ll hit the ole liquor store tomorrow and see if I can’t scare up a bottle of the old Zubrowka. Or just take a crap and think about Mike. Too close to call, really. dziekuje bardzo, – sid

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Screw this wussy stuff and bring on the Slivovitz!!  I’ll try to get some for Penns 2002! Scott If you bring that I’ll make sure to get a bottle of Zubrowka – Polish vodka flavored with buffalo grass.  The current stuff is actually fake, because the buffalo grass has some kind of blood thinner and the FDA banned it in 1978, but it’s still good.  My uncles used to have bottles of the real stuff and brought it out on holidays.  They’re all over 80 and still healthy as horses, so maybe it’s really good stuff<g.

Sounds like a deal.  There’s a Slovenian on my floor–I’ll start working on him for a bottle. This Clave might take on an Eastern European flavor.  Maybe a nice flanken would serve as well. Scott

Response:

Screw this wussy stuff and bring on the Slivovitz!!  I’ll try to get some for Penns 2002! Scott

Plum Vodka from one of the slavic countries Czechoslovakia? Poland? national drink. There is a plum brandy that is good too. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion

Response:

Screw this wussy stuff and bring on the Slivovitz!!  I’ll try to get some for Penns 2002! Scott

If you bring that I’ll make sure to get a bottle of Zubrowka – Polish vodka flavored with buffalo grass.  The current stuff is actually fake, because the buffalo grass has some kind of blood thinner and the FDA banned it in 1978, but it’s still good.  My uncles used to have bottles of the real stuff and brought it out on holidays.  They’re all over 80 and still healthy as horses, so maybe it’s really good stuff<g.

Response:

<good TR snipped some sort of Scandinavian drink made from potatoes called (it sounded like at least) Aqua Feet

FYI: http://www.britannica.com/seo/a/aquavit/

Response:

  some sort of Scandinavian drink made from potatoes called (it sounded like at least) Aqua Feet FYI: http://www.britannica.com/seo/a/aquavit/

Thanks for the link Stan.  I still think my description and the name of Aquafeet should be used despite what the encyclopedia has to say about it. <g Lou gave some interesting history about this drink.  Apparently crossing the equator makes it taste better so the good stuff is stamped with when and on what boat it crossed the equator.  If nothing else, it made the drink more interesting because it had a history. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – some sort of Scandinavian drink made from potatoes called (it sounded like at least) Aqua Feet FYI: http://www.britannica.com/seo/a/aquavit/ Thanks for the link Stan.  I still think my description and the name of Aquafeet should be used despite what the encyclopedia has to say about it. <g Lou gave some interesting history about this drink.  Apparently crossing the equator makes it taste better so the good stuff is stamped with when and on what boat it crossed the equator.  If nothing else, it made the drink more interesting because it had a history. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

Screw this wussy stuff and bring on the Slivovitz!!  I’ll try to get some for Penns 2002! Scott

Response:

Lou Teletski and his friends (Jim, Tom and Eric) have been out in Yellowstone for a week and are leaving today.  I finally got my life caught back up from the Conclave and was able to swing over there yesterday to fish with Lou and his friends.  We met at his hotel room in Gardiner early yesterday morning and decided to go fish some water in the Park that they have never done well on.  This stretch of river can be difficult to fish for a variety of reasons, especially when the fish are uncooperative.  I wasn’t sure what to expect for today.  Hayden Valley was socked in with smoke from a couple of fires in the area.  Depending on which way the wind blew, the smoke would either come in or blow it out and for most of the day we were fortunate to be without. We arrived on the water a little after 9 and were all on the water around 9:40 or so.  There were some Gray Drake spinners around, but very few fish were rising.  Before getting on the water I had given everybody a short description of what had worked for us during the Clave as well as how the Troutmaster had tackled this stretch of water.  We spread out and began fishing.  I started fishing a large stonefly nymph with a prince dropper and fished the deep slots.  I came into the first fish and radioed the group of what the fish had taken.  I caught another fish shortly thereafter and again radioed the group that the fish had again taken the prince nymph. Eric was next into fish on some sort of peacock bodied fly that closely resembled a prince.  It was nice watching Eric catch fish because he enjoyed each one as if it was his first fish.  A few fish started rising in Troutmaster Willi’s hole and I had Lou come over and fish it with me.  I switched over to an Adams and caught another fish.  Jim and Eric caught a couple of fish upstream of us.  Lou didn’t have much luck in Willi’s hole and I eventually worked my way back up to the vehicle to get a quick snack and left Lou down there to catch some fish. After watching the buffalo walked down the road and feeding some birds, Lou and I went and fished upstream of where we started.  A meadow starts in this section and there is a big cove with slow moving water.  The cove is sort of shallow and has a large flat that runs along a very deep section.  We worked our way upstream fishing this deep section and neither of us had any luck. I walked quite a ways upstream trying to find some better water, but it was all the same for as far as I could see. The water in this area would be very good to fish from a float tube because it is more like fishing a lake although it is against the rules to fish it from a float tube.  There is hardly any current and even the very structure is very lake-like.  I walked back down to Lou and we decided to work our back and fish the area we had fished earlier in the morning.  While we were going fishless, the radio crackled with news that the other three guys were getting into fish downstream. As we walked along the bank, we spotted three fish hanging out in the cove close to the bank.  Lou eventually enticed one to the surface with a Gray Wulff.  The fish had taken up positions and began feeding in an area where the cove ends and the river narrows causing the water to move a little faster.  Lou went over and began fishing while I sat on the bank and watched Lou in action.  He caught another fish in this area and the fish started rising more profusely than before.  I started fishing downstream to the fish that were hanging out on the far side of the current and was unable to get a good drift so I changed sides.  Lou in the meantime is catching fish mind you.  I worked my way downstream to an area that allowed me to cross the river and began to hear thunder in the distance.  The wind was coming in fits and during the calm periods the fish would start rising. After crossing the river I saw a bunch of fish on the flats and started fishing for these.  The fish were not taking dries however and I could see them taking nymphs of some sort.  They just swam a couple feet to either side very nonchalantly and opened their mouths to these drifting morsels of food.  I added a small pheasant tail dropper and started fishing the Adams and the dropper.  I didn’t have much luck with the Adams so switched over to a Gray Wulff with the PT dropper.  The wind just happened to pick up and made casting next to impossible where I was at and the thunder started booming very close to our location.  Jim, Tom and Eric packed up and headed upstream while Lou crossed the river. As Lou and I were discussing leaving, a large cutthroat came up and hammered my Gray Wulff.  The fish dove into a weed bed and I lost the fish.  I put a couple more casts out and had another nice sized fish take the PT dropper. This fish ran for the rocks and I could feel the leader ticking up against the rocks before the tippet finally gave out.  We decided to get off the water because of the weather and headed up to the vehicles.  By the time we had put away our gear, the storm had passed and a large group of Gray Drakes were hovering over the vehicle.  We decided to head back to Gardiner for dinner and call it a day.  They still had some packing to do after all. The results were we caught 17 fish with none under 16" between the five of us.  I don’t think anyone caught any 16" fish either.  Most fish seemed to hover around the 17" to 18" range with a few larger that pushed into the  20+" range.  Unfortunately, Tom never did get a fish.  This river has a way of keeping at least one person in the group very humble and my last trip to this river had left me skunked. After a great meal and good conversation we headed back to their room for some coffee and a special drink that Lou had brought.  I say special not because it was so tasty, but because it was from Sweden I think.  It is supposedly some sort of Scandinavian drink made from potatoes called (it sounded like at least) Aqua Feet and that is how it should be said and written IMO because it tasted like someone had mashed up rotten oranges with dirty feet.  We talked for quite some time before I decided it was getting late and I still had a decent drive ahead of me so I should depart.  I had a wonderful time with these guys and was thankful that I had the opportunity to meet Lou.  Another good example as to the quality of the people you meet by way of ROFF.  I couldn’t have asked for a better day or better company other than getting Tom into some fish. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

Response:

Question:

I believe their was a case a couple of years ago concerning an Angel Flight. One of their aircraft had broken down while on a mission in a remote area. One of the other Angel Flight volunteer pilots flew a mechanic in his own aircraft to repair the downed aircraft. The FAA gave this pilot a violation for flying a "commercial" flight without the proper ratings. Their reasoning was since the Mechanic was being paid to repair the other aircraft that made it a commercial flight operation by definition and that it did not fall under the Angel Flight exclusion even though the pilot received no compensation and donated his time and aircraft expenses. Apparently a charter service at their home field had complained to the FAA because they felt they should have flown and been paid for the repair flight. This situation is similar and would probably end the same way. If the FAA doesn’t have it brought to their attention, they most likely won’t come looking and won’t really care. But, if someone like an airport manager, FBO, or charter service complains that their losing revenue, then the results will usually be in favor of the commercial operation and against the individual. Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe that Rick Cremer once said there is no such thing, no such ruling, no record of action against a pilot for such a thing. Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

What is the compensation that he or anyone else is getting? Who hired him? I still don’t understand the problem. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think a reading from the FAR’s might clarify my earlier statement. Sec. 61.113   Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command. (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft. (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if: (1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and (2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire. The (b)(1) is what I referred to, it’s not clear that if you do it for free it’s ok or not.  I know that I have had FSDO people tell me it’s not ok, but then I know they don’t always get it right either.  They told me that the flight time you accumulate while doing this counts as payment, who knows, I certainly don’t! A normal procedure when dealing with regulations is that if it’s not stated as being unlawful then that means it’s lawful.  However, with the FAA you never can tell, they can make their own rules and interpretations up on the fly, so I’d always play safe and not do it. However, it’s your certificate and if you have a beef with the fee’s, then don’t pay them and let the FBO do what they want.  You could always clear it with your local FSDO and see what they say, and as for Angel Flights and commercial license.  It’s like CAP from what I understand, there are wavers in place for this type of operation. Let us know what the FSDO says, and then if the FBO isn’t charging others I’d tell him to go screw himself, assuming FSDO says a private is all you need. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

Response:

I still don’t understand what is particularly grey about this. What compensation is he or anyone else getting? And what does "commonality of purpose" have to do with it? Doesn’t the FAA have the burden of proof that a violation occurred? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire.<< It’s not a reg. As in many cases where the FAA takes administrative action the office of the Chief Councel makes a determination of what a reg means and what to do to a pilot. Especially in a grey area. This entire thread comes through here about every year. Searching the Google newsgroup archives has most of it. I have the case law copied somewhere. I just went through a bunch of old data, couldn’t find it but sure did clean out my desk. KG

Response:

Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could

find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire.<< It’s not a reg. As in many cases where the FAA takes administrative action the office of the Chief Councel makes a determination of what a reg means and what to do to a pilot. Especially in a grey area. This entire thread comes through here about every year. Searching the Google newsgroup archives has most of it. I have the case law copied somewhere. I just went through a bunch of old data, couldn’t find it but sure did clean out my desk. KG

Response:

 It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks.

Pussy.  F-350 Triton V-10 pulling a 33ft double slide fifth wheel. Going from San Antonio to Oshkosh this July… Russell Kent

Response:

Anyone really care?  You are doing your friend a favor and if you feel like it is worth it, ask him to chip in by paying the landing fee. The Feds aren’t going to be there looking over your should just waiting to catch you allowing someone else to pay your landing fee. You know most won’t even care. If you were recieving compensation for doing this that would be one thing but you’re not. Even then they would have to catch you. Let him pay the landing fee. If the Feds want to take away your license for something they will, period. There won’t be any stopping them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

Response:

My 250 and your 350 have the same frame, of course the engines are the same also.  You just have more lug nuts to take off when you get a flat. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks. Pussy.  F-350 Triton V-10 pulling a 33ft double slide fifth wheel. Going from San Antonio to Oshkosh this July… Russell Kent

Response:

I think a reading from the FAR’s might clarify my earlier statement. Sec. 61.113   Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command. (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft. (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if: (1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and (2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire. The (b)(1) is what I referred to, it’s not clear that if you do it for free it’s ok or not.  I know that I have had FSDO people tell me it’s not ok, but then I know they don’t always get it right either.  They told me that the flight time you accumulate while doing this counts as payment, who knows, I certainly don’t! A normal procedure when dealing with regulations is that if it’s not stated as being unlawful then that means it’s lawful.  However, with the FAA you never can tell, they can make their own rules and interpretations up on the fly, so I’d always play safe and not do it. However, it’s your certificate and if you have a beef with the fee’s, then don’t pay them and let the FBO do what they want.  You could always clear it with your local FSDO and see what they say, and as for Angel Flights and commercial license.  It’s like CAP from what I understand, there are wavers in place for this type of operation. Let us know what the FSDO says, and then if the FBO isn’t charging others I’d tell him to go screw himself, assuming FSDO says a private is all you need. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

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You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

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You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Bullsquat. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend.

What I would ask is this, are you going to this site anyways, in other words, if he wasn’t along for the ride, would you still go? If not, what you’re doing requires a commercial.  That’s why you are getting the landing fee charge.  It’s common around here for a landing fee only on commercial ops, private is usually free in my neck of the woods. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

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I agree with Jim….as I usually do, being a fellow Piper owner…anyway… I find this type of thread always amusing…you can’t do that because it is for ‘hire’ or in this case ‘no commonality of purpose’. With all due respect to Mr. Gruber and everyone else who feels that way…to quote my friend down south…BULLSQUAT! ALL my flights are for ME.  I fly for fun, not profit, I love to go different places.  So, your honor, when Mr. X asked me if I would take him to BFE, I said, sure, having never been there, I looked forward to going and checking it out.  I then decided with or without him, I was gonna explore BFE, and started to make my flight plans.  Just so happens since he was still wanting to go to BFE, and I was wanting to go someplace new, we both had a common purpose for the flight..we BOTH wanted to go to BFE equally….thus, I did not fly him to BFE, he came with me on yet another $100 hamburger run to someplace I had not yet been….BFE…and that your honor is my story….   Its true!  Bottom Line…..have fun and fly safe!!! Garrett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights. Bullsquat. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

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Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved. Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

Frank, you are going to be beaten bloody by gnats, on this topic… First, you are in a somewhat grey area of the regs… You say you are donating your time and gas and I accept that… Others, who are hostile to you or your friend for whatever reason, will say you are performing a commercial flight operation, air taxi, without the ratings, etc… My position is, that as long as you are not being paid in any fashion other than your own satisfaction, it is your airplane to fly wherever and whenever, ala. Angel Flights, etc… <still a free country… If you choose to arrange your schedule with your friend so he can accomplish his own purposes, that is between you two and it is still a Part 91 flight… I have a friend that I routinely fly with… My plans usually are contingent upon his needs, when we leave, when we come back, etc..  The Professional Hand Wringers (PHW) are all over this board, and the minutae artists among them would try to make the case that if I wait even five minutes for him, it is now magically an air taxi operation and I’m in violation, yadda, yadda, yadda, all over the place… Now the PHW will be all over you, so you, like Caesars wife, have to be above reproach that what you are doing is your own personal satisfaction, that you are not using the trips to  build hours towards a commercial rating, that the friend is not sending you and the wife on a missionary trip to Guatemala <or where ever, etc…  nada, nothing, sparkling clean… Also, the friend better not be hiring an air taxi when you are not available… That would be tough to explain away if the FAA got into it… The toughest part is the airport… Obviously, it is common knowledge that you are flying him in the performance of HIS work… From the airports point of view that constitutes a commercial activity originating at the airport, whether you get paid or not… The analogy here, is an employee of a corporation may fly the corporate plane on company business, without his being a commercial pilot… That does not protect him/them from paying the commercial operations fee when that plane, with the corporate logo all over it, lands and taxi’s in to the fbo… From  my perspective, have the friend pay the fee, since it is his activity that is commercial, not yours, or make an arrangement that you will buy the 20 gallons of gas on some fixed schedule, or otherwise get an agreement with her… <I’m actually against anything other than his paying the fee, because money appearing out of your hand in any fashion makes YOU look like a commercial operation Or find another airport and keep your mouth(s) shut <probably the best solution… I would advise against making a major fight out of it with the airport manager… She has the ultimate weapon of filing a complaint with the FAA that you are running a clandestine air taxi… Not good – not fun – lotsa grief…. Cheers  …  Denny

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

Response:

Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.

Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me.<< That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not. Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight. Karl ATP LR-Jet CE-500 BE-300 15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

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I think you are stretching the interpretation a bit.  If a friend suggests that the fishing is good in MT, and we fly there in my plane, it is not a commercial flight.  To be a commercial flight the person/entity providing the flight must receive something in return. I would agree with your interpretation if they were splitting costs. Mike MU-2   Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.   Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with   it to me.<<   That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.   Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight.   Karl   ATP   LR-Jet   CE-500   BE-300   15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. What I would ask is this, are you going to this site anyways, in other words, if he wasn’t along for the ride, would you still go? If not, what you’re doing requires a commercial.  That’s why you are getting the landing fee charge.  It’s common around here for a landing fee only on commercial ops, private is usually free in my neck of the woods.

Bullsquat. If one could not fly someone for free when there was no commonality of purpose, Angel Flight could not exist. As long as he does not receive any compensation, he should be OK. Given the nature of the radio station (Christian non-profit), Frank may be entitled to deduct his out of pocket costs (or even perhaps the wet local rate for a C150) from his taxes. The ‘landing charge’ seems more like an FBO ramp fee to me. -Greg

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 It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim,    I kinda wondered about you until I saw your signature line… even though I knew you flew a Cherokee. You proved yourself with the Ford F-150 rating though.  Carry on!

Response:

I believe that Rick Cremer once said there is no such thing, no such ruling, no record of action against a pilot for such a thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

Jim,     I kinda wondered about you until I saw your signature line… even though I knew you flew a Cherokee. You proved yourself with the Ford F-150 rating though.  Carry on! — Joe Schneider Cherokee 8437R Advanced F-150 Supercab rating Numerous other spamcans not worth mentioning     Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.     Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with     it to me.<<     That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.     Snip Karl’s nonsense…     Karl     ATP     LR-Jet     CE-500     BE-300     15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot     Ooooh!     —     Jim Fisher     Cherokee 140     Warrior II     Cherokee 180     Cessna 172 Once (Under Duress)     Ford F-150

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The toughest part is the airport… Obviously, it is common knowledge that you are flying him in the performance of HIS work… From the airports point of view that constitutes a commercial activity originating at the airport, whether you get paid or not…

That may or may not be the case here. Frank did not say that they are charging the landing fee because it’s a commercial operation. Sounds to me like they have decided to charge fees for everybody. The only place "commercial" came into it was the proposal to have his friend pay the landing fee. And that is where it gets sticky. If he does so, he’s contributing to the cost of the flight and the "commonality of purpose" becomes an issue (as others have said). George Patterson,  N3162Q.

Response:

Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

  Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.   Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with   it to me.<<   That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.   So another pilot and I are planning to fly to Mooselips, Nevada for a little fun.  He’s interested in brunettes.  I have a big thing (okay, maybe an average thing . . . okay, maybe . . . never mind) for blondes.     There’s no "commonality of purpose" since blondes and red heads are obviously from different planets.  So I have to foot the entire bill, right?   Okay, you have to go to a Troll convention in Californy.  I need to go there for a He-Man High Wing Hater convention.  I’m not sure that I’d wanna fly with you anyway but if we could, we couldn’t, right?   Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight.   So, can I kinda hint around at the idea until my friend gets the message about going?  Does this need to be in writing?  Will a handshake count as a "ruling" or do we have to slice our palms and share blood?   Incidentally, the word "commonality" is not mentioned in the FAR’s anywhere.  Yeah, I was suckered enough to look it up and am pretty sure I pselled it right.   Karl   ATP   LR-Jet   CE-500   BE-300   15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot   Ooooh!   —   Jim Fisher   Cherokee 140   Warrior II   Cherokee 180   Cessna 172 Once (Under Duress)   Ford F-150

Response:

That doesn’t agree with what I learned. Where in part 91 does it say that? Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.

Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me.<< That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not. Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight. Karl ATP LR-Jet CE-500 BE-300 15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

Response:

I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

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Question:

  There’s fish in there all year round, but in the winter it’s also stocked with rainbows.  The fish spread out over the length of the "clear ditch" and are very spooky.  The banks are also very high, which makes it difficult to be stealthy.  It’s known as my state’s most technically demanding flyfishing.  

Good report Bruce. The spooky fish sure are a switch from the Juan’s. Learn how to take these fish, Bruce. They’ll teach you alot. Willi

Response:

 We’ve recently moved to the north end of town, …

Thanks for the report, Bruce. Some have had success fishing over recently stocked fish using a "brown wooly booger" slapped heavily on the surface. Matching the trout chow hatch, as it were. I wouldn’t want to embarrass anyone by divulging this "technique", but it’s been known to work on the stocker sections of the Watauga. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Some have had success fishing over recently stocked fish using a "brown wooly booger" slapped heavily on the surface. Matching the trout chow hatch, as it were. I wouldn’t want to embarrass anyone by divulging this "technique", but it’s been known to work on the stocker sections of the Watauga.

Haven’t tried that one. But how about this one: sixteen beadhead pheasant tail nymphs tied in tandem. Toss that rig into the pool and it looks just like a pellet shower. Works every time! –Steve

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You’ve been hanging around Louie to long. Flies aren’t supposed to get wet. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some have had success fishing over recently stocked fish using a "brown wooly booger" slapped heavily on the surface. Matching the trout chow hatch, as it were. I wouldn’t want to embarrass anyone by divulging this "technique", but it’s been known to work on the stocker sections of the Watauga. Haven’t tried that one. But how about this one: sixteen beadhead pheasant tail nymphs tied in tandem. Toss that rig into the pool and it looks just like a pellet shower. Works every time! –Steve

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Rumor has it that one Waldosomebodyorother has ingeniously adapted a cotton candy machine to spin Trout Chow and glycerine into pseudo hair/hackle.  Deadly flies made from this marvelous "natural" and "organic" product are being manufactured by the millions in third world country slave labor camps and being readied for release as the Trout-O-Matic early in the Spring. Tom  (rumormonger) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  We’ve recently moved to the north end of town, … Thanks for the report, Bruce. Some have had success fishing over recently stocked fish using a "brown wooly booger" slapped heavily on the surface. Matching the trout chow hatch, as it were. I wouldn’t want to embarrass anyone by divulging this "technique", but it’s been known to work on the stocker sections of the Watauga. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

 We’ve recently moved to the north end of town, near the east bank of the Rio Grande.  I’m on a dirt road for the first time in my life, and we’re the only home among six on our road that has no livestock.  Not fancy, but you can see the stars at night and we like it. On the west side of the river there’s a little old apple farming town that’s almost been swallowed by urban sprawl.  That little town has protected itself with zoning laws designed to preserve it’s rural characther, and it’s worked.  There’s also a spring creek running through that little town, next to the Rio Grande.  The creek was remanufactured (probably over 100 years ago) to run through a man made channel and it looks like an irrigation ditch.  Unlike all of the other ditches that make up the Albuquerque drain system, however, this one runs clear and cold all year long and has lots of aquatic plant life and insects.  There’s fish in there all year round, but in the winter it’s also stocked with rainbows.  The fish spread out over the length of the "clear ditch" and are very spooky.  The banks are also very high, which makes it difficult to be stealthy.  It’s known as my state’s most technically demanding flyfishing.  In five previous tries, usually consisting of a couple hours of fishing, I’ve caught a grand total of one pretty large rainbow. Thursday afternoon, I tried again, this time with a good friend from work.  We parked near another ditch, a muddy one, and started to get rigged up.  A fellow walking down the opposite bank asked if my truck was ok (maybe he thought I was parking in a strange place).  My friend asked if there’s a better place to park to fish the clear ditch, and our new friend obliged us by pointing me to a better place to park than I’ve ever discovered before, just through a small gate to a prime stretch of water.  My truck was the only vehicle there, but this spot was obviously not a secret.  You could tell people park there often. When we got to the ditch, there was no problem finding fish.  In the first depression we spotted a couple little rainbows that we managed not to spook.  No luck.  My friend was fishing tiny dries and I, tiny nymphs.  We moved all over and tried every trick we know to no avail. We’d fish where we saw fish and none of them were interested in our imitations.  There was a terrific hatch of small mayflies but our stocker friends in front of us weren’t feeding on them actively.  A couple of times, in frustration, we stood up on the bank and showed ourselves to the fish and instead of the two or three we had spotted, twenty or thirty of them would begin swirling in front of us but they wouldn’t leave the depression they were sitting in.  We weren’t catching any fish, but we were having fun trying. More fishermen appeared in our primo stretch of water.  The bait guys (two of them) kept their distance and fished from the bushes, drifting single eggs to the fish with no luck.  The other fly fishermen, however, were not a shy, asking us how we were doing, spooking fish as they walked past us up on the streambank.  There were four other fly fishermen, all kids, and they had no clue about fishing manners, but they were just kids and they were nice.  And we weren’t catching any fish anyway. I spotted a 15" carp and before i could cast to him, while trying to get into postition, lost sight of him.  He was real spooky.  My friend and I spent some more time walking to get away from the others and I had told my friend to keep an eye out for larger carp.  He called me over because he had spotted a ‘white’ fish and wanted me to drift my nymph to it.  He thought maybe it was a smaller carp an it was sitting on the bottom. My glasses must be better than his because i could tell right away that it was a white goldfish about 7 inches long, and he was flanked in the water by no less than 4 other goldfish, all gold.  Those goldfish must be selective feeders.  I tried midges, scuds, mayflies, all to no avail.  I thought SJ fish were selective!  Well, it got dark and we went home. So, if anyone wants to visit me and sight fish for goldfish, let me know bruce h — bare your soul let your spirit burn out along the road to no return – r.e. keen

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Question:

"In alphabetical order …. " You might want to check your order. Allan

Response:

In alphabetical order, I think a new law firm should be set up in Montana by three such men that need a change in life and a serious move into happy trout country.  I.E. "HARRISON, FAULKNER & MILLER"  the Legal Maulers of Montana would have a thriving practice and they could fly fish every lunch hour if they so choose.  I would even donate my services in exchange for theirs.  It would certainly be of equal value! Billings Montana is a serious location  including, Helena and Missoula or even Hamilton Montana.  I only wonder how good they would look in a Western Stetson? Of course they may always try Jackson  Hole and compete with Jerry Spence! CSG (chuckle, sneer, grin!) Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/chat

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"In alphabetical order …. " You might want to check your order. Allan

; ) Mr. G. GOTCHA! — http://www.gink.com/chat

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; ) Mr. G. GOTCHA!

See how often the gnome will dip into the same sorry little bag to cover his lame ass? GOTCHERSELF!!

Response:

See how often the gnome will dip into the same sorry little bag to cover his lame ass? GOTCHERSELF!!

______  Your breeding is showing. Sad. Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/chat

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Wolfgang writes: ; ) Mr. G. GOTCHA! See how often the gnome will dip into the same sorry little bag to cover his lame ass? GOTCHERSELF!!

Bwwwhahahahahaha.  ROFLEO. So very, very true, Wolf.  The twits of this world will never change.   d;0) Dave L.

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Whooops!  Guess I rose to the bait …. er,  fly.

Response:

"In alphabetical order …. " You might want to check your order.

things ain’t always rational in Bizarro world. Myxtplk

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You ought to be careful here George, somebody who uses the word bastard as often as you do, not to mention all the other choice language you occasionally come out with, really should refrain from comment on breeding. I fear you may know how it occurs, but not what it means. — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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You ought to be careful here George, somebody who uses the word bastard as often as you do, not to mention all the other choice language you occasionally come out with, really should refrain from comment on breeding. I fear you may know how it occurs, but not what it means.

_______ Gee Mike, that term was not used by me in THIS thread, but I see your point and you’re right. I do know, as a matter of fact, what you mean for I may have sired all the bottom dwellers here.  I guess some of us have a talent for such things but look at the fun they’re having!? I will refrain from commenting on what you have aptly pointed out in the future.  What would I do without you Mike?  You’re a great guy who is always looking after me. I am a blessed man, Your pal, George Gehrke Beware!  Do not feed the Bottom Dwellers! — http://www.gink.com

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I suppose I ought to comment on this thread even though I don’t know why. Well, I sure as hell wouldn’t mind practicing with these guys, particularly in Montana.  Although we’d all be working the overnight shift at Ole’s so we could fish all day, so the law degree becomes superfilous anyway. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Question:

The show is scheduled for September 11-14. In years past, Organizers, Etc. (800 283-2754) have helped attendees with travel and lodging reservations. You might give them a call for details.

Response:

Hello Simon: Contact the staff of the International Fly Tackle Dealer Show at: PO Box 370 Camden, ME 04843 Clay

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I am very keen to attend the Denver Fly Fishing Trade Show in September. Could someone please furnish me with details.

The organization behind the promotion of this show is Fly Rod & Reel Magazine.  Their address is:         Fly Rod & Reel              PO Box 370              Camden, Maine 04843 You can also send E-Mail from their home page at: http://flyfishers.com/fly-rod-reel.html Regards, Trent P Roberson          Rx F Fish "For Your Good Health, Fly Fish" URL=http://www.xnet.com/~rxffish

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I am very keen to attend the Denver Fly Fishing Trade Show in September. Could someone please furnish me with details.

You can write Fly Tackle Dealer Magazine at Box 370 Camden, Maine 04843. You can probably e-mail Fly Rod and Reel (same group) through their web site (sorry, don’t know the Domain Name).    -Ralph Ralph Cutter, California School of Flyfishing. http://www.flyline.com

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Question:

Can anyone recommend a good book on knot tieing ?  Actually, what I’d REALLY like is a stream-side guide to knot tieing … something I can stick in my vest, preferrably water-proofed, that covers a few basic knots. Ken Boulder, CO.

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Can anyone recommend a good book on knot tieing ?  Actually, what I’d REALLY like is a stream-side guide to knot tieing … something I can stick in my vest, preferrably water-proofed, that covers a few basic knots. Ken Boulder, CO.

It’s a little large for a vest, but the best knot tying book I have seen is "Practical Fishing Knots II" by Mark Sosin and Lefty Kreh. // // Charlie… //

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Can anyone recommend a good book on knot tieing ?  Actually, what I’d
REALLY like is a stream-side guide to knot tieing … something I can
stick in my vest, preferrably water-proofed, that covers a few basic

Save the cash and buy the current issue of  Fly Fisherman. It has one of the best articles I’ve seen that actually tested the strength of some of the more popular knots. Learn to tie two of those knots and you won’t ever need to learn any more about knots.

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I have a ’stream guide’ on my  fly box – it’s the metal kind.  Pasted on the outer side of the cover is a schematic of about 8 popular knots. I never use it because I tie the same 3 knots for anything I do:  blood for joining tippets and leaders; nail for joining leader to flyline, and Duncan for tying on flies.  After several hundred times of tying these, one never forgets how.   Point:  Practice 3 – 4 of your favorite knots over and over and you won’t need a stream guide.  Leaves more time for fishing instead of debating which knot to use, how to tie, etc…. Have fun. Jim

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Orvis has just such a thing, the "Waterproof Vest Pocket Knot Booklet" written by Doug Truax. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Can anyone recommend a good book on knot tieing ?  Actually, what I’d REALLY like is a stream-side guide to knot tieing … something I can stick in my vest, preferrably water-proofed, that covers a few basic knots. Ken Boulder, CO.

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Question:

I have only recently picked up the art of Flyfishing and I have not gone fishing before the drought. Because of all the rain this year I am wondering if there will be areas that will be closed or just unfishable due to the excess of water. I live in the bay area, and Hat creek is about six hours from my house. If anyone has any sugestions about where I can go, within that same range, please respond. E-mail me or respond in this newsgroup.

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I have only recently picked up the art of Flyfishing and I have not gone fishing before the drought. Because of all the rain this year I am wondering if there will be areas that will be closed or just unfishable due to the excess of water. I live in the bay area, and Hat creek is about six hours from my house. If anyone has any sugestions about where I can go, within that same range, please respond. E-mail me or respond in this newsgroup.

Hi Tim:  Try Lewiston Lake on the Trinity River during the spring.  It is about the same distance as Hat Creek.  Lewiston has lots of hatches, good access, and good flyfishing.  Its pretty well known, much like Hat Creek but there is always alot of room to fish.  Float tubes, prams, and canoes are great but there is good shore access too.  Get information and flies at the Fly Shop in Redding.  By the way, two years ago when we had a big winter, I can’t remember any problems with high water.  Streams that are regulated below reservoirs usually run pretty clear when other places are brown. Best of luck.

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I tried Lewiston last Spring-May and was rather diasappoiunted. Only a few small planters. Was last year a bad year, flow through Lewiston was really up and maybe this had something to do with it?

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I have only recently picked up the art of Flyfishing and I have not gone fishing before the drought. Because of all the rain this year I am wondering if there will be areas that will be closed or just unfishable due to the excess of water. I live in the bay area, and Hat creek is about six hours from my house. If anyone has any sugestions about where I can go, within that same range, please respond. E-mail me or respond in this newsgroup.

Right now, no. Later in mid July to late August, The Kings River and Kaweah River are pretty good. Both have lots of trout, but most are in the 10 inch range. There are also lots of 24 inchers but you really have to know where to go and how to fish them. Most people around here don’t. Both Rivers are about 2 hours south east of Fresno. The lower Kings opens up early in the year, and is only 20 minutes from Fresno, but I’m not real familure with that part of the river. Dave

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have only recently picked up the art of Flyfishing and I have not gone fishing before the drought. Because of all the rain this year I am wondering if there will be areas that will be closed or just unfishable due to the excess of water. I live in the bay area, and Hat creek is about six hours from my house. If anyone has any sugestions about where I can go, within that same range, please respond. E-mail me or respond in this newsgroup. Right now, no. Later in mid July to late August, The Kings River and Kaweah River are pretty good. Both have lots of trout, but most are in the 10 inch range. There are also lots of 24 inchers but you really have to know where to go and how to fish them. Most people around here don’t.

I’ve fished the South Fork of the Kaweah River quite a few times above Ladybug Camp but have never fished any of the other rivers in the area. Any suggestions? — John Fereira "Guru of Miscellany" Pleasanton, CA "i’m new to the internet and don’t know what i am doing."            – anonymous

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Question:

Is it just me or is sea kayaking under going a rapid de-evolution ?    I can think of no other sport that is racing back to the future like it.   Skin boats,  thin wood paddles Greenland training techniques this stuff has been in use for 10,000 years .   Can any modern R.D dept. hope to come up with any thing that can withstand that test of time?

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Is it just me or is sea kayaking under going a rapid de-evolution ?    I can think of no other sport that is racing back to the future like it.   Skin boats,  thin wood paddles Greenland training techniques this stuff has been in use for 10,000 years .   Can any modern R.D dept. hope to come up with any thing that can withstand that test of time?

 I would’nt go so far as calling it a "de-evolution", the same thing happens with just about every sport out there – equipment becomes more and more sophisticated and technologicaly advanced. The original creation that started the whole process becomes lost to history. Just because I want to build a Baidarka doesnt mean I want to hold the rest of the world back – I just want something different – something that you just dont see very often, but is also recogizable as a part of past history – which is what makes it so fun. This is the reason I fly fish instead of using the latest in bait casting reels(but I use both), I also shoot a recurve bow(but I also own a compound), and I shoot black powder ( but I also have the most modern of arms). I’d be willing to bet that the modern R&D shops can and do design kayaks and canoes that are light years more efficient and durable than past boats, but evolution is the way of the world, and what better way to evolve than to look back to the past to plan for the future?

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