Question:

There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks."

Someone once told me that rainbow trout originated on the Pacific coast of Siberia. This guy is an outfitter on the Kamchatka Peninsula, so I took it with a grain of salt (bullshit detectors at work, Wayno , but it’s an interesting idea. I’m pretty sure that rainbows are native to Siberia, so there’s no reason they might not have originated there rather than in North America. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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I’m pretty sure that rainbows are native to Siberia, so there’s no reason they might not have originated there rather than in North America.

Rainbows originated in the North Pacific basin, along with cutts and Pacific salmon. They were first classified by a Swedish scientist studying fish from Kamchatka, but there is no real evidence that they actually evolved there.

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Someone once told me that rainbow trout originated on the Pacific coast of Siberia. This guy is an outfitter on the Kamchatka Peninsula, so I took it with a grain of salt (bullshit detectors at work, Wayno , but it’s an interesting idea. I’m pretty sure that rainbows are native to Siberia, so there’s no reason they might not have originated there rather than in North America.

The Russians certainly think this.  There are even some that think there’s evidence Oncorhynchus sp. as a group originated there.  The evidence is purely phenotypic, though, and they concede the evidence admits other possibilities.  Go to: http://www.psmfc.org/workshops/shconf98.html and scroll down to the last abstract, "The Diversity of Pacific Trouts in Kamchatkan Water Bodies". A "final" answer will probably have to await complete sequencing of the DNA from a number of native populations across the entire range of the species.  That’s no doubt a long way off.  There’s a lot of research being done on the genetics of rainbow trout (a complete nucleotide sequence for mitochondrial DNA was published in ‘95).  Much, probably most, of it is on hatchery and/or introduced populations rather than native ones. JR

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… a complete nucleotide sequence for mitochondrial DNA was published in ‘95) …

Datapoint – within each cell of a human, there is one strand of mitochondrial DNA and 23 pairs (46 strands) of nuclear DNA. For salmon/trout, there is again just one strand of mitochondrial DNA but anywhere from ~26 to 39 pairs of nuclear DNA. The mitochondrial DNA is interesting because it is passed down maternally, so it is useful for tracking lineage. It is also the case that it is only ~16,500 base pairs (roughly letters) long and not highly variable. Nuclear DNA (also called genomic or genetic DNA) on the other hand is passed down from both parents, is constantly mixed up in each individual, and is really the stuff that controls who/what each of us is and or could be. In humans, genetic DNA represents roughly 3 billion base pairs, and in salmon/trout, roughly 2.4 billion base pairs. Many fish studies to date have tried to draw conclusions from the easier-to-work-with mitochondrial DNA, but the really interesting results will come from an in-depth study of the nuclear DNA.  As of last year, the more advanced studies going on in the Columbia Basin were drawing conclusions based on 17/1000 of 1% of the nuclear DNA. Thomas Gilg

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Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico. San Diego county drainages had steelhead and salmon runs as late as the 1940’s. Recently, steelhead were discovered in San Mateo creek, just north of Camp Pendleton in San Diego county, and efforts are underway to return this stream to a viable steelhead fishery.  (A very uphill battle!) If you live in the San Diego/Orange County area and would like to participate in a ‘Camping/Cleanup" being conducted on September 8 and 9 (no fishing, strictly a habitat improvement mission), send me email and I’ll send you the details. FiddleAway

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Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico.

?? JR

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Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico. ??

At least when the last ice age retreated 10-13,000 years ago, there were ice sheets on both sides of the Columbia River, hence the Columbia is where salmon held over during the last ice age, and once the ice retreated, those salmon spread north and south to their current range. Going back in time, it would be interesting where else salmon many have "held over" and "originated". –tg

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Steelhead trout originated in Southern California … or points south in Mexico. ?? JR

There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks." Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971          

Response:

There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks."

That’s interesting. I’ll steal a glance at that section of the book on my next visit to Borders, if they haven’t gone and sold it yet. (Sorry, Rich). Still, even if southern stocks of native rainbows are the oldest, it doesn’t necessarily mean that those stocks were the first to adopt anadromy. FiddleAway:  Do folks know where the steelhead "discovered" in Mateo Creek came from?  Are they strays or what?  Also, if you haven’t yet seen it, you might be interested in: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/species/steelhead/ JR

Response:

Michael McGuire There are some theories based on comparative analysis of DNA from rainbows native to this region versus that from rainbows native further north which point at them possibly being genetically the least changed and therefore the oldest. This is alluded to by Loev in his book "Flyfishing For Sharks."

One theory is that Colorado Cutts are the grandaddies of the west coast trout strains.  The theory is that seagoiong cutts migrated into the Sea of Cortez and down the east coast of Baja, when the latter had a much wetter climate. Eventually these strains migrated down around Cabo and up the Pacific Coast, becoming the Steelhead/Rainbows we know today. The sourthern steelhead eventually developed a tolerance for warmer waters and a life cycle that could tolerate their home streams not being open to the sea every year. As I said before, salmon and steelhead were caught in San Diego county through the 1940’s (maybe later).  There is currently a trout fishery in Mexico on the Pacific side of its central mountain range.  The Melling Ranch is a commercial outfit that caters to people who wish to try this fishery … these trout are not seagoing trout, however. Today, there are still a few steelhead that return to Malibu Creek just north of LA.  At one time, NMFS had set Malibu as the southernmost point for giving special protection status to the fishery.  They’ve balked at extending the protective unit as far as San Mateo creek on the border of Orange/San Diego county, but DNA evidence has shown the trout found there to be a unique strain of southern steelhead.  Not sure what the current legal status is.  I think NMFS is still dragging its heels, but local clubs and conservation associations are continuing to push for restoration of this fishery. Hence, the clean up. FiddleAway

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John Russell  wrote FiddleAway:  Do folks know where the steelhead "discovered" in Mateo Creek came from?  Are they strays or what?  Also, if you haven’t yet seen it, you might be interested in:

The folks I talked to pretty much subscribe to the theory I posted in another response. The study of the creek ensued after trout where caught in its upper reaches. Fin clippings from some 40 odd individuals showed that all of the trout were in the same, 2 year old, generation.  This fact correlated to a heavier winter, two years prior, that had opened up the mouth of the Creek to the ocean. DNA analysis ruled out any relation to stocked strains.  These were natural fish that chose to migrate into the creek from the ocean. FiddleAway

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John Russell  wrote FiddleAway:  Do folks know where the steelhead "discovered" in Mateo Creek came from?  Are they strays or what?  Also, if you haven’t yet seen it, you might be interested in: The folks I talked to pretty much subscribe to the theory I posted in another response.

You’ll have to excuse me if I seem dense, but in your response to Michael (which is the only other one I’ve seen on my server, and I’m assuming is the one you mean), you only say that "DNA evidence has shown the trout found there to be a unique strain of southern steelhead."   The study of the creek ensued after trout where caught in its upper reaches. Fin clippings from some 40 odd individuals showed that all of the trout were in the same, 2 year old, generation.  This fact correlated to a heavier winter, two years prior, that had opened up the mouth of the Creek to the ocean. DNA analysis ruled out any relation to stocked strains.  These were natural fish that chose to migrate into the creek from the ocean.

So you’re saying that these are resident San Mateo rainbows that two years ago, for the first time in decades (or longer) migrated to sea–which is not at all impossible.  Or, in other words, that they are *not* strays from a neighboring population (either wild or stocked). Here’s the reason I asked (taken from the comments of the Southern California Steelhead Recovery Coalition to NMFS proposed extension of the S. Cal Steelhead ESU): "Although steelhead are known to have well-developed homing abilities (see P. B. Moyle, Inland fishes of California, [1976]), it is also known that southern steelhead commonly stray from their natal streams. This straying may be selectively advantageous because it would allow spawners to opportunistically utilize more favorable streams when their natal streams dried up or were blocked.  (See P. Higgins, Southern California Steelhead Recovery Assessment [1991]). An additional feature of southern steelhead is that they ‘miraculously’ reappeared in large spawning runs when flows became suitable in streams that had been dry or otherwise inaccessible during the previous one or more years. The implication is that streams within the historic range of the Southern California Steelhead ESU that are currently unoccupied may be rediscovered by steelhead at anytime. These unoccupied streams are likely to be discovered when habitat conditions in currently occupied streams are less favorable, indicating that all of the historical range of the Southern California Steelhead ESU is essential for the survival and recovery of this ESU." There’s a larger issue at stake here than the fate of the San Mateo population, as important as that is. JR

Response:

So you’re saying that these are resident San Mateo rainbows that two years ago, for the first time in decades (or longer) migrated to sea–which is not at all impossible.  Or, in other words, that they are *not* strays from a neighboring population (either wild or stocked).

No.  I haven’t heard of any evidence for that.  The DNA evidence shows that these trout are related to other southern steelhead. However, I’d be surprised if there aren’t at least anecdotal reports of people catching steelhead in San Mateo creek earlier in the century when all of the drainages in San Diego county were less impacted by development.  This would be consistent with the passage you quoted from the SCSRC. There’s a larger issue at stake here than the fate of the San Mateo population, as important as that is.

I agree, if you are talking about Southern Steelhead in general as the ‘larger issue’. FiddleAway

Response:

One theory is that Colorado Cutts are the grandaddies of the west coast trout strains.  … An interesting theory…I have not read that one.  

I haven’t either.  I have to admit, I am passing on information I got from someone I know who I take to be well informed on the subject. FiddleAway

Response:

One theory is that Colorado Cutts are the grandaddies of the west coast trout strains.  The theory is that seagoiong cutts migrated into the Sea of Cortez and down the east coast of Baja, when the latter had a much wetter climate. Eventually these strains migrated down around Cabo and up the Pacific Coast, becoming the Steelhead/Rainbows we know today.

An interesting theory…I have not read that one.  My understanding is that the rainbow and cutthroat ancestral lines diverged perhaps as long ago as the Pliocene, and then each ancestral line diverged again to become the species/subspecies that we find today (redband and coastal rainbows and the various subspecies of cutts). Interestingly enough, the southernmost known species of salmonids occurring in watersheds that drain to the Pacific (the Mexican Golden Trout, Apache Trout, and Gila Trout) all appear to be more closely related to rainbows than to cutts.  I would expect the reverse to be true if Colorado River cutts represent the ancestral strain.

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At least when the last ice age retreated 10-13,000 years ago, there were ice sheets on both sides of the Columbia River, hence the Columbia is where salmon held over during the last ice age, and once the ice retreated, those salmon spread north and south to their current range. Going back in time, it would be interesting where else salmon many have "held over" and "originated".

Actually, there appear to have been perhaps 4 evolutionary lines of Rainbow (or Rainbow ancestors) in the Sea of Cortez during the four Pleistocene glacial maxima.  These evolutionary lines are thought to be the source of Apache trout, Gila trout, Mexican Golden trout, and several other unclassified strains (if not distinct species) in the Sierra Madre Occidental range in Mexico.

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Only trouble, one of the two instructors with me was carrying a piece and you could see it.  He didn’t like the restaurant or its clientele.  d:0(  Although he was licensed, it did not make us very comfortable being with him. Dave L. An obviously poorly trained individual.  A visible piece is no protection and is akin to the braggart boasting of things he has never done with no witnesses to back it up.  Additionally, at ranges up to fifteen feet, a holstered weapon is no defense against an already drawn knife. Personally, in situations such as those, I distance myself from the individual in question, sashay up to the bar, delicately look at my watch while tsk tsking…….and say to the first person that asks, "Well, you can buy me a drink, but only one!"….john

ROFL.  The good counselor for the great North State will have something to say, I am sure.  Especially since it happened in his great NS.  (still laughing) Dave      —–  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free Usenet News via the Web  —–      —–  http://newsone.net/ —  Discussions on every subject. —–    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts

Response:

An obviously poorly trained individual.  A visible piece is no protection and is akin to the braggart boasting of things he has never done with no witnesses to back it up.  

I don’t know that I’d go so far. It is telling the robber about to walk in the door who he should shoot first, though. Additionally, at ranges up to fifteen feet, a holstered weapon is no defense against an already drawn knife.

It was 21 feet, when Sgt. Tueller first demonstrated it. According to my arrest-control instructors, it might have become even more since then. "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

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Only trouble, one of the two instructors with me was carrying a piece and you could see it.  He didn’t like the restaurant or its clientele.  d:0(  Although he was licensed, it did not make us very comfortable being with him. Dave L.

An obviously poorly trained individual.  A visible piece is no protection and is akin to the braggart boasting of things he has never done with no witnesses to back it up.  Additionally, at ranges up to fifteen feet, a holstered weapon is no defense against an already drawn knife. Personally, in situations such as those, I distance myself from the individual in question, sashay up to the bar, delicately look at my watch while tsk tsking…….and say to the first person that asks, "Well, you can buy me a drink, but only one!"….john

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It is pay-off time for when IJ sent my buddies and me to the gay restaurant in Wilmington. Warren Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

______-  They had tube steaks? — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/  Updates http://www.gink.com/chat Flyfishing Conversations 6:00 PM PST till after midnight.

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It is pay-off time for when IJ sent my buddies and me to the gay restaurant in Wilmington.

You are baaaad.  But typical USMC – never thinking about normal heterosexual sex.  Actually, IJ’s restaurant was pretty good.  Good martinis and fairly good food.  Only trouble, one of the two instructors with me was carrying a piece and you could see it.  He didn’t like the restaurant or its clientele.  d:0(  Although he was licensed, it did not make us very comfortable being with him.   Dave L.      —–  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free Usenet News via the Web  —–      —–  http://newsone.net/ —  Discussions on every subject. —–    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts

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[entreaties snipped] This year we will insure that Indian Joe does not win all of them like he has in the past. This I got to see. Nobody has yet demonstrated an immunity to IJ’s croc’ tears ;^) The caving of the RaffleMeister is inevitable. /daytripper (It’s not "if" – it’s "when" ;^)

No, I have found new resolve.  IJ will be lucky if he wins *any* flies. It’s his turn for an obscene hat or tie.  It is pay-off time for when IJ sent my buddies and me to the gay restaurant in Wilmington.  He can cry all he wants; I will not give in this year.  New resolve.  Yes sir. Dave L.      —–  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free Usenet News via the Web  —–      —–  http://newsone.net/ —  Discussions on every subject. —–    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts

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Question:

In 14 hours, the EBAY auction for a Beautiful Hardy Marquis 6 Fly Fishing Reel – No Reserve – will be completed. Please check it out. You may see it here: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=141623991 Thanks!

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I am sick of this damn ad. Big Dale

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Me too. Bob Elliott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am sick of this damn ad. Big Dale

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Question:

Hi, any of you guys out there have a design and instructions for a home made trout smoker.

A large home smoker is built most easily out of the carcase of a big appliance (e.g. refrigerator) which the smoke reaches underground through a tube (e.g. metal downspout) from a fire location 10 to 20 ft. distant.  This cools the smoke to the 100 deg. Fahr. desirable for traditional smoking.  You then have the trouble of keeping the fire going for long periods, 24 hours or more. For smaller capacities, electric smokers are sold in N.America (about $80.)  These hold fish sides up to about 16 inches max. For smallest capacities and immediate consumption, Europeans commonly use alcohol-burning smokers, as sold by Trowell, ABU etc.  These are portable thus good for streamside use, but seldom more than 12 inches long. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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I like to use a bong or your standard, hippie-grade water pipe. The only drawback is that you first have to grind up the fish in order to fit it in the bowl. If you have a problem getting it lit, use a little nitro. You should be able to get some from a drag racer.

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If you have a problem getting it lit, use a little nitro. You should be able to get some from a drag racer.

Or go to a hobby shop. They use it for model airplane fuels. Bryce

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Dude… NO LIE, Man….toughest part about smokin trout is keepin it lit!

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I hope someone does as I’m running out of freezer space.

Running out of freezer space, eh?  That’s nice ya lo-life.  What did you pay for your fishing license and what has the stocking program cost us taxpayers and other fisherman in comparison, and what has it done to "your own" fishery?  I guess there might be a *slight* chance that keeping so many trout makes sense (like if the bait-fishermen were going to get them all anyways, or if the summer heat will kill these put-and-take fish that don’t belong there anyways . Let me guess, your from "PA"??? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks            A.P.

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I read an article once about using a cardboard box to make a makeshift smoker.  You took the bottom out and stuck sticks through the side to make a rack for the fish.  You had to be careful the whole thing didn’t go up in smoke.– Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail GO TO http://www.ccnet.com/~emh FOR FLY FISHING BOOK AUCTION – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like to use a bong or your standard, hippie-grade water pipe. The only drawback is that you first have to grind up the fish in order to fit it in the bowl. If you have a problem getting it lit, use a little nitro. You should be able to get some from a drag racer.

Response:

yeah, we built the pit-style smoker in the Boy Scout’s handbook one summer on a 4 week long camping trip…..got all the alder twigs for the fish, made a "hinged" door on our box, lined the pit with alder leaves, cut, split and fire dried alder and apple for making our own chips, the whole bit. I’m sure with a few modifications, it would have done a better job of smoking vs. cooking the fish…..but it did work pretty well.  one old feller suggested we dig an "outlet hole" at an angle down towards our pit so some of th esmoke could vent off- he said just slide a cover over it as th efire cooled down….awwh, what did he know any way….=8^) the earlier comment by the gentleman using the large appliance and his statement about the fire being farther away and the smoke being "piped over" to attain a lower heat is right on the button…don’t know if it was mentioned, but it IS IMPERATIVE THAT ALL THE FREON IS REMOVED FROM THE FRIDGE FIRST…..it can have fatal side effects.

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–snip– to attain a lower heat is right on the button…don’t know if it was mentioned, but it IS IMPERATIVE THAT ALL THE FREON IS REMOVED FROM THE FRIDGE FIRST…..it can have fatal side effects.

Actually, another important thing to remember, and it may not be important at smoking temperatures, is that the corrosion resistant coating they use on the metal shelves in fridges breaks down at elevated temperatures.  I believe it can lace the food with dangerous chemicals. FYI dunc — Please delete the "_remove" | "Virtue is more to be feared than from the username to reply. |  vice, because its excesses are not                             |  subject to the regulation of Thank you                   |  conscience." — Adam Smith

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–snip– to attain a lower heat is right on the button…don’t know if it was mentioned, but it IS IMPERATIVE THAT ALL THE FREON IS REMOVED FROM THE FRIDGE FIRST…..it can have fatal side effects. Actually, another important thing to remember, and it may not be important at smoking temperatures, is that the corrosion resistant coating they use on the metal shelves in fridges breaks down at elevated temperatures.  I believe it can lace the food with dangerous chemicals. FYI

My grandmother had THREE old ‘fridges next to her machine shed that she used as smokers for 25-30 years.  I don’t think she did anything but toss an electric element and some chips into a pan on the bottom rack; she certainly didn’t drain out the freon, or even remove the motors.  Of course she died of cancer at 90, so it might have caught up with her eventually.  The fish was pretty good though… -drl — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University       Department of History   "Eastward I go by force, but Westward I go free!"  -H. D. Thoreau

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I hope someone does as I’m running out of freezer space. Running out of freezer space, eh?  That’s nice ya lo-life.  What did you pay for your fishing license and what has the stocking program cost us taxpayers and other fisherman in comparison, and what has it done to "your own" fishery?  I guess there might be a *slight* chance that keeping so many trout makes sense (like if the bait-fishermen were going to get them all anyways, or if the summer heat will kill these put-and-take fish that don’t belong there anyways . Let me guess, your from "PA"???

Oh, yeah. There is no chance that he could have put beef or chicken in his freezer. None whatsoever! Bryce

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Hi, any of you guys out there have a design and instructions for a home made trout smoker. I hope someone does as I’m running out of freezer space. Thanks             A.P.

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Question:

Hello I am from the Azores. Have you ever considered coming to these islands ? Guess what the climate isn’t so bad, the people are great. Nature is still nature. Good for paraglidings, snorkling, fishing, etc. Lots of folk festivals during the summer. The land owners are as a vast majority great. We hava never had major problems with them. Of course you don’t land on a field that has just been plowed or near a place where they are milking the cows, just common sense. Just ask all the world champions that have been here how much fun it was. Even though there isn’t much termal activity there’s still some great flying. There’s no competition, just fly for fun. If it’s not good for flying, no problem let’s all go for a swim in cristal clear waters. Two major paragliding events in the Azores. In June on the island of S. Miguel and in August on the islands of Faial and Pico. Camping is great fun. Inexpensive boarding houses or hotels. Let us know and we can get you settled. E-mail me if you need further assistance or information on Azorean paragliding web sites. Jo

Question:

        Hi! I am dying rabbit pelts for bunny leaches and I noticed that they shrink to almost a quarter their actual size I’ve heard to use cold water but I cant get the full colors I want.  I am using RIT dye any help or directions would be appreciated THANKS!                                         Dolph

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        Hi! I am dying rabbit pelts for bunny leaches and I noticed that they shrink to almost a quarter their actual size I’ve heard to use cold water but I cant get the full colors I want.  I am using RIT dye any help or directions would be appreciated THANKS!

….what’s your time frame? I dye rabbit pelts with room-temperature water and rit dye, and get good (usually olive) colors everytime. But I find I have to let the pelts soak for a least a week to to get it. —  * Center For Computational Biology            –o0O  * Montana State University  */

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        Hi! I am dying rabbit pelts for bunny leaches and I noticed that they shrink to almost a quarter their actual size I’ve heard to use cold water but I cant get the full colors I want.  I am using RIT dye any help or directions would be appreciated THANKS!                                         Dolph

Hi Dolph When Gretchen & I dye rabbit pelts we pin them to a board before drying them to keep them from shrinking. For more info on dying check the "tips & tricks" section of my web site. I’ve reviewed temperatures and other tips there. Take care & … — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Catalog,Tips & Tricks, Fishing Reports, & NeverSink at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

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        Hi! I am dying rabbit pelts for bunny leaches and I noticed that they shrink to almost a quarter their actual size I’ve heard to use cold water but I cant get the full colors I want.  I am using RIT dye any help or directions would be appreciated THANKS!

If you want very bright colors, you’ll have to peroxide the pelts first. You can use Miss Clearall (sp) or any other product made for bleaching human hair. This will strip alot of the natural color & leave you with a much lighter hair to work with. Willi

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Question:

An interesting experience with Atlantics!  I didn’t know they were on the West Coast. The sparse Chum you mentioned, is this something new, or have you noticed it coming on.  Our populations of Chum here in Oregon have been sadly declining for several years now.  In fact there are few left.  And they are one of my favorite quarry with a fly. Burton

Well I don’t think that they’re declining.  There was a supposed poor return last year supposedly due to environmental considerations or something.  I think that they were just a little late this year.  A friend fished the same river last week and said that they were plenty of fresh chum in the lower part of the river.  I do enjoy fishing for them when they’re in a taking mood, but I have yet to uncover any sort of consistent success with them.  I would really like to find a beach with some silver chums  on it and try for them in the salt.  Haven’t been able to figure that one out yet either.

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An interesting experience with Atlantics!  I didn’t know they were on the West Coast. The sparse Chum you mentioned, is this something new, or have you noticed it coming on.  Our populations of Chum here in Oregon have been sadly declining for several years now.  In fact there are few left.  And they are one of my favorite quarry with a fly. Burton – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -just spent an interesting trip out on a local river where the Chum salmon were rather sparse.  I was swinging an egg sucking leech over the

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s too bad these farm escaped fish are moving in on our rivers.  It felt weird to cold heartedly slay what I’m sure is a noble fish in its own territory. Oh well, if you’re planning a trip after Atlantics, you might want to consider Vancouver ISland, B.C.   Martin There have been a few caught down here as well.  Someone was telling me that they are sterile, in which case, seems like they’ll do no harm. They hit a dry fly and fight well, they’re welcome to hang around where I fish. I have heard that due to the cramped quarters that these aqua cultured fish are kept in, that bacterial and fungal outbreaks are common on these fish. They may not be as harmless as you think if they introduce disease into the resident natural population. Food for thought. mike

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It’s too bad these farm escaped fish are moving in on our rivers.  It felt weird to cold heartedly slay what I’m sure is a noble fish in its own territory. Oh well, if you’re planning a trip after Atlantics, you might want to consider Vancouver ISland, B.C.   Martin There have been a few caught down here as well.  Someone was telling me that they are sterile, in which case, seems like they’ll do no harm. They hit a dry fly and fight well, they’re welcome to hang around where I fish.

Down here ? William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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It’s too bad these farm escaped fish are moving in on our rivers.  It felt weird to cold heartedly slay what I’m sure is a noble fish in its own territory. Oh well, if you’re planning a trip after Atlantics, you might want to consider Vancouver ISland, B.C.   Martin

They are also in the Skagit River, having escaped from a pen in Puget Sound. Pat Hayden Sedro-Woolley

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It’s too bad these farm escaped fish are moving in on our rivers.  It felt weird to cold heartedly slay what I’m sure is a noble fish in its own territory. Oh well, if you’re planning a trip after Atlantics, you might want to consider Vancouver ISland, B.C.   Martin

There have been a few caught down here as well.  Someone was telling me that they are sterile, in which case, seems like they’ll do no harm. They hit a dry fly and fight well, they’re welcome to hang around where I fish.

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It’s too bad these farm escaped fish are moving in on our rivers.  It felt weird to cold heartedly slay what I’m sure is a noble fish in its own territory. Oh well, if you’re planning a trip after Atlantics, you might want to consider Vancouver ISland, B.C.   Martin There have been a few caught down here as well.  Someone was telling me that they are sterile, in which case, seems like they’ll do no harm. They hit a dry fly and fight well, they’re welcome to hang around where I fish.

I have heard that due to the cramped quarters that these aqua cultured fish are kept in, that bacterial and fungal outbreaks are common on these fish. They may not be as harmless as you think if they introduce disease into the resident natural population. Food for thought. mike

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I just spent an interesting trip out on a local river where the Chum salmon were rather sparse.  I was swinging an egg sucking leech over the few fish I could find when I had a take.  I set the hoook and the fish took a little upstream run.  I saw the medium sized fish was a dark color and not the green and purple typical of chum.  I was thinking I’d been lucky enough to hook a coho and put some pressure on the fish.  It jumped and then moved close to me where I noticed a bronze color with blue and red spots!  An Atlantic Salmon! I put extra pressure on the fish to capture this nasty unwanted invader.  One big sweep of the two handed rod and the fish was beached.  I clobbered it over the head and it’s now in the freezer waiting for the authorities to haul it away for dissection. It’s too bad these farm escaped fish are moving in on our rivers.  It felt weird to cold heartedly slay what I’m sure is a noble fish in its own territory. Oh well, if you’re planning a trip after Atlantics, you might want to consider Vancouver ISland, B.C.   Martin

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Question:

I have a ton of Ruffed Grouse feathers. What do flies do you use it for? Thanks!

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I have a ton of Ruffed Grouse feathers. What do flies do you use it for? Thanks!

See Sylvester Neme’s book The Soft Hackled Fly.  One grouse will go a very long way:  hackles for motion (rather than colour) and "filoplumes" for gills on large nymphs, but not much more:  Quill and tail fibres are commonly too small to use like pheasant. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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I have a ton of Ruffed Grouse feathers. What do flies do you use it for? Thanks! See Sylvester Neme’s book The Soft Hackled Fly.  One grouse will go a very long way:  hackles for motion (rather than colour) and "filoplumes" for gills on large nymphs, but not much more:  Quill and tail fibres are commonly too small to use like pheasant.

Might try crossposting it to rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying, those guys’ll be able to help you over there, tell ‘em TBone sent ya. 8{)…. However, my very favorite wet fly, The Breadcrust, uses Grouse tail exclusively.  What a fly ! TimW

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I have a ton of Ruffed Grouse feathers. What do flies do you use it for? Thanks!

Hi Ronald, I use grouse feathers for soft hackle flies.  I particularly like them on a bead head Hare’s Ear Softhackle.  TIP:  If you have trouble finding feathers small enough to tie #18 and smaller, you can take the fibers from a larger feather and spin them around the hook like you would spin deer hair.  In so doing you have soft hackle for just about any sized fly. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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Question:

I am planning a trip to Montana in mid to late September and could use some advice on fly selection. My  girfriend will be fishing the Yellowstone, Madison, and in the park. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!

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I am planning a trip to Montana in mid to late September and could use some advice on fly selection. My girlfriend and I will be fishing the Yellowstone, Madison, and some in Yellowstone Park. I would like to tie as many flies as possible before the trip. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!

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I am planning a trip to Montana in mid to late September and could use some advice on fly selection. My girlfriend and I will be fishing the Yellowstone, Madison, and some in Yellowstone Park. I would like to tie as many flies as possible before the trip. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!

Hi Tim, In September, in particular, the browns are quite active preparing to spawn. Preparing for this results in two activities: gorging lots of food to build up necessary fat deposits for spawning, and protecting their spawning lies from predators. Both activities result in excellent streamer fishing from September to November. Be prepared with a selection of Muddlers, Woolly Buggers, Matuka and Woolhead Sculpins, and Zonker patterns, to name a few of the more locally popular flies. September is also a fine time here for insects. Hydropsyche caddis are still emerging heavily on all the rivers (size 14-16, pale green & tan), as well as the late emergence of Rhyacophila (the "Bright Green Caddis Larva," size #14-16, olive adult). Baetis become the dominant mayfly (olive, size #18-22 with smaller sizes more typical of the fall emergence), with Mahogany duns (brown, size 14) providing late season action for the larger mayflies, especially on the Gallatin River. There are lesser hatches which are also "locally" important on some rivers, including Tricos (Madison), Attenella (upper Yellowstone), etc. I’d also suggest that you contact local fly shops for the area you’ll be visiting, including Jacklin’s in West Yellowstone and Montana Troutfitters or The River’s Edge in Bozeman. They can provide you with locally effective "hot" patterns and up-to-date fishing reports. Good Luck, Ryan Jordan J&J Flies (Bozeman)

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I had good luck using a PMD nymph at Buffalo Ford last Sept. Not much else was working at the time. Frank Cada

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I am planning a trip to Montana in mid to late September and could use some advice on fly selection. My girlfriend and I will be fishing the Yellowstone, Madison, and some in Yellowstone Park. I would like to tie as many flies as possible before the trip. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!

Hi Tim You will need a series of Bead Head nymphs and Hare’s Ear Nymphs #10 – #16, assorted Wulffs #12 – #18, Parachute Adams #16 – #20, assorted Compara Duns #14 – #22, Elk Hair Caddis #12 – #20 both light and dark,   Real important for that time of years is #8 Grass Hoppers — my favorite is a Whit’s Hopper or something similar.  By the time September rolls around the fish will have seen many different Hopper patterns and the more realistic the better.  This is especially true in the Park.  The fish on Slough Creek as an example will often "nudge" a hopper patterns several times before taking it.  It’s important that you not strike when they nudge the fly but wait for them to take it.  It can be a real nerve racking experience but a lot of fun as well. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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It matters a GREAT deal WHERE on the Yellowstone you’ll be fishing.  The Yellowstone, as you know, is a very large river that can be broken down into several sections.  If you can be more specific as to the area you’ll be fishing, I’ll tell you the information you want to know.

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I am planning a trip to Montana in mid to late September and could use some advice on fly selection. My girlfriend and I will be fishing the Yellowstone, Madison, and some in Yellowstone Park. I would like to tie as many flies as possible before the trip. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!

Have some hoppers for warm days. Wooly buggers in whatever fancies you. I like black with a touch of flash and the Bakers hole special which is yellow and brown with a touch of flash. Bead head Hares ears in a variety of sizes and bead head Prince seems to work on the Madison. Definitely have some size 18-22 pmd type emergers in pale yellow. Last year this was our most effective fly on the madison the first week of October. (I still after all these years can’t figure out how those trout see those flies in all that rough water!) Fished them with a small strike indicator on the nymphs and like a dry for the emergers. I personally still used the strike indicator on th emergers cause I sure can’t see the fly. I would also still have the basics in a variety of sizes like Wulfs Adams, Caddis and sparkle duns, but the nymphs were most productive for us. The Wooly Buggers were the most productive on the Yellowstone above Le Hardy Rapids. Kevin Williams

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I am planning a trip to Montana in mid to late September and could use some advice on fly selection. My girlfriend and I will be fishing the Yellowstone, Madison, and some in Yellowstone Park. I would like to tie as many flies as possible before the trip. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!

I suggest calling Madison River Outfitters in West Yellowstone.  (I don’t feel comfortable publishing phone numbers, but I’m sure you can call information.)

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Question:

I’d like to apologize to Mark for flaming him.  That was not my intent!  My intent was to poke a little fun at elitist dry fly fishermen who look down on nymphing.  BTW my perferred method of fishing is with a dry fly or emerger, but only when it is effective, most of the time it’s just not as effective as nymphing.  IMO nymphing in many ways is more challenging than dry fly fishing.   For example dead drift is every bit as important to nymphing as with a dry fly presentation but tougher due to the differential current speeds from surface to stream bottom.

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Keywords: I got  e-mail in response to a previous post  and I thought I’d share it with the group. Mark Writes in response to my post below: For nymphs fished dead drift I always use long leaders, indicators and lead. when you say "indicators", are you referring to "bobbers"? i.e. Little things that float around and bounce up and down when a fish bites.                           Mark

Yes Mark that’s exactly what I mean and with no apologies.  Except for sight nymphing where you can see both the fish and the nymph at the same time, its almost impossible to see the take by watching your line (another little thing that floats around and bounces up and down when a fish bites).   Even with an indicator experienced fisheman miss at least 50% of the takes.  This experience comes from years of fishing to sighted fish with partners, where one partner spots for the other.   Frequently, when I’m up on a bank with a good angle, I’ve watched the trout we’re hunting inhale the nymph with no movement in the line leader or indicator.  A nymphing trout’s take is very subtle.  They suck the nymph and almost as quickly blow it back out again if you don’t set the hook. So Mark if you can’t stomache using a bobber or indicator, then just sit back and continue to be   self satisfied catching only the trout dumb enough to hook themselves (Usually the smaller ones who have to dart in from the side.), then by all means continue.   I’ll just have to take my satisfaction from success on the water, knowing deep down inside that somehow I’m just not the fisherman I could be if I could only loose my dependence on those bobbers! Just in case anyone out there thinks I’m serious.  I don’t know a single nymph fisherman, whose opinion I respect, who doesn’t use indicators ( that includes Andre Puyans, Mike Lawson, Lamb, etc.).  I vary the type of indicator to the conditions I’m fishing.   In fast water I use Marks bobbers to set the depth of float as much as anything.  In fast water the line drag usually sets the hook sets the hook before you’ll see the indicator move or pause.  In glass smooth gin clear water I use either a little silicon on the leader or a small tuft of yarn.  But what the heck it’s all bobber fishing right Mark.

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