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Thanks Clark, Those are very nice sites and thanks to those who have built them. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you have any interest in bamboo or fiberglass fly rods, you might be interested in my discussion forum on classic fly rods. Boards include collecting, fishing, repair/restoration, rodmakers/restorers, appraisals, and a board to place a free ad for tackle you want, or wish to sell. The bamboo site is located at; http://pub12.ezboard.com/bclarksclassicflyrodforum  and the fiberglass site is located at; http://pub8.ezboard.com/bglassflyrodshopforum Thanks you for your interest.

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If you have any interest in bamboo or fiberglass fly rods, you might be interested in my discussion forum on classic fly rods. Boards include collecting, fishing, repair/restoration, rodmakers/restorers, appraisals, and a board to place a free ad for tackle you want, or wish to sell. The bamboo site is located at; http://pub12.ezboard.com/bclarksclassicflyrodforum  and the fiberglass site is located at; http://pub8.ezboard.com/bglassflyrodshopforum Thanks you for your interest.

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Question:

Hi All: Well, the wife didn’t quite understand the Visa bill at first, but all has turned out well. (I tried to head it off at the pass as several of you suggested, but she’s too quick for me.) My sister is getting married in NH in June, so we’re headed up to Conway. Apparently forgot to stop off at the Kittery Trading Post last year, so I will have to make amends this time. Will also be dropping in on Ogunquit for a couple of days.  Need some advice and information on what is available from a fly fishing perspective preferably fresh water…? Any advice, information, directions, suggestions-clean ones, children read these posts-popular flies, etc. would be most welcomed. Regards, BobA The Allens of Allentown, PA (For e-mail, drop the first A)

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The Ogunquit River has sea run browns in it, as does the lower Mousam in Kennebunk.  For directions and advice on flies, I recommend Eldrige Bros. Fly Shop on Rt. 1. Eric

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All: Well, the wife didn’t quite understand the Visa bill at first, but all has turned out well. (I tried to head it off at the pass as several of you suggested, but she’s too quick for me.) My sister is getting married in NH in June, so we’re headed up to Conway. Apparently forgot to stop off at the Kittery Trading Post last year, so I will have to make amends this time. Will also be dropping in on Ogunquit for a couple of days.  Need some advice and information on what is available from a fly fishing perspective preferably fresh water…? Any advice, information, directions, suggestions-clean ones, children read these posts-popular flies, etc. would be most welcomed. Regards, BobA The Allens of Allentown, PA (For e-mail, drop the first A)

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Hi Eric: Thank you for that information, I will stop in at the Eldrige Bros Fly Shop for sure. BobA

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wish ‘em luck Peter

An article in The Electronic Telegraph, a London e-paper, has an article on the SAS unit.  Also mentioned was the deployment of Tornados to the "little" military exercise in Oman, with about 20,000 people.  I don’t think most people, on either side, are aware of the size of the wave about to break. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!

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An SAS group was active for a brief time in South Yemen a few years ago (when there were *two* Yemens – now there is one).  These folks, like most shadow warriors are seldom seen, heard about only in rumor, and you surely wouldn’t want to wake up with them standing by your bed, if you are on the task list. This will likely be the sharpest edge of that terrible swift sword. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Collin: SAS = ? Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave According to the Washington Post, they’ve been training in the Pakistani mountains for the past five years and before that, with the Pathan warriors against the Soviets.  If they follow standard SAS ops, most will speak the local language – they’ll concentrate on recon, demolition, and ambush; vectoring in a larger force for the capture and covering it on the extraction.  Then they’ll disappear again and we’ll probably never hear about their contribution. If anyone wants to get an inkling of current SAS ops, check out Andy McNab’s "Bravo Two Zero" about the Gulf War.  An 8 man SAS patrol lead by McNab on a Scud busting mission, was dropped inadvertently in the middle of two Iraqi divisions.  Their mission compromised right from the start, they made a 110 mile escape and evasion to the Syrian border.  One made it, three died (two from exposure) and four were captured at the Euphrates River, the border with Syria.  On the way, it was estimated that they took out over 250 Iraqi soldiers. They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. The old TV series Rat Patrol was, as is usual for Hollywood, stolen from SAS service history.  The series does give some sense of what their WWII desert ops were like.  Hitler gave orders that any captured SAS soldiers were to be executed immediately as they were too dangerous to be left alive. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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The British SAS were used in the Iranian embassy siege in London a few years ago.  They went in from the roof and balcony and killed all, but one, of hostage takers.  The stroy goes that when they realised one of the hostage takers was hiding among the hostages outside the embassy, they went out to drag him inside to kill him.  Hostages pleaded for his life to be spared. He is serving life in jail. They took out IRA members in Gibraltar, leaving the bodies on the road. There was accusations of a "shoot-to-kill" policy. They turn up in many places where justice, law and order fails to take hold.  For example, an IRA man was found not guilty at the Old Bailey (Central Criminal Court, London) despite overwhelming evidence.  A few weeks later, he was shot dead, along with his mates, in a Northern Ireland churchyard, having just robbed a bank. The SAS are based at Hereford.  Its best to say "Sir" to anyone you speak to in Hereford. Bobby Bewl —

I haven’t seen it mentioned on CNN but the Toronto Sun has reported a fire fight between a Taliban force and an SAS recon patrol. Apparently, they’ve been in country for nearly a week, looking for bin Laden. wish ‘em luck Peter Visit The Streamer Page at

http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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and if you think *they’re* tough, wait ’til they get a whiff of the 24th foot…the south wales borderers.

Any relation to the 24th Yorkshire Foot and Mouth? Bobby

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has long been the unwritten rule that one does NOT write about one’s life in the Regiment

Then this article, in yesterday’s Sunday Times, will not have gone down very well: www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/09/23/stiusausa02023.html "Tom Carew, an SAS soldier who helped turn Afghanistan’s fighters into an effective modern guerrilla force, on the daunting task facing allied troops in the air or on the ground.  My life with the mujaheddin." — Phil Jones

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They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. I was in high school during WW II, but I remember reading about British "Commandos," which I vaguely recall was a word taken from a Dutch word "commando" used during the Boer War. Was "Commandos " another name for the SAS? vince norris

In WWII, the Commandos were Royal Marines whereas the SAS were drawn mostly from the army and RAF.  The Commandos specialized in amphibious raids while the SAS, as the name suggests, used airborne and overland approaches. There is a Royal Marine version of the SAS called the SBS (Special Boat Squadron) that is even more clandestine than the SAS (and if you ask a Marine – tougher.)  Just to confuse matters, the SAS has a Boat Troop that operates similarly to the SBS while the SBS also operates from naval helicopters.  Both the SAS and the SBS originated in WWII. http://business.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk/Nsco/a/r/m/armedforces/mari… http://www.britains-smallwars.com/main/SBS.htm Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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If there is a reasonably accurate account of the SAS in book form or official history, I woiuld like to add a copy to our Museum’s library.  We currently have a little material from W.W.II North African campaigns in the collection including some Desert Rats material.  Our collection includes significant material from England and Commonwealth counries from both World Wars and the Cold War.  We hold the largest ANZAC collection in the US and need to expand input from the British. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!!

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They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps.

I was in high school during WW II, but I remember reading about British "Commandos," which I vaguely recall was a word taken from a Dutch word "commando" used during the Boer War. Was "Commandos " another name for the SAS? vince norris

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Thanks for getting back to us.  BTW, there are a number of regiment histories out there – preferences? Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Thanks for getting back to us.  BTW, there are a number of regiment histories out there – preferences?

One that was semi-officially sanctioned by the Regiment several years ago was "Who Dares Wins" by Tony Geraghty.  It is pretty factual, although obviously just a selection of stuff that can be made public.  Of interest is the fact that Tony Geraghty, an ex-Territorial (Reserve) paratrooper and journalist wrote a book about Northern Ireland only a couple of years ago and got himself arrested for spilling a few too many beans.  His earlier book mentioned above, is pretty accurate up to the Gulf War. There are numerous others, but most are either glamourizing tales of bravado written with an eye to the dollars, or semi-political works that try to make the authors’ pet point. The more accurate books are restricted circulation ones within the SAS Association or Special Forces Club library. There is one by Ken Connor, a long-time member of the Regiment, called "Ghost" I think from memory – it’s not too bad, but he does push his own barrow a fair bit, and has a slightly jaundiced view of things.  Some say he was in there too long.  I had just under 6 years in, and I saw enough to make me appreciate all the good things in life, and also to recognize what’s REALLY important in life as opposed to what society and peer- pressure try to tell us is important.  That’s why I enjoy fly-fishing! (Nifty, cunning return to topic there – heheh — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

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British special forces (Special Air Service) – originated during WW II as a raiding force to fight Rommel’s forces in Africa, and obviously it stuck together.  The man who started it (Stirling) was knighted about 10 years ago I believe.

Just for the record, he was knighted back in the 1980s, and he died in 1991, just a few months before the Regiment’s jubilee (50th) birthday celebrations, which I attended and was marked by a touch of sadness that the founder had not quite made it. — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

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I’m aware that McNab’s book hasn’t received the best of reviews from his former associates, though to the best of my knowledge, the 250 number came from other sources, not McNab.  Having had a former SAS Flt. Lt. as a training officer, I know about their reticence regarding any sort of publicity.  So I wonder whether the regiment’s dislike of the book comes from perceived inaccuracies in the story or the fact that McNab has profited from matters that should not have been made public.

Both.  The inaccuracies are real and grossly exaggerated.  It’s interesting that no mention of these huge body counts was made in the video-taped debriefings of both ‘McNab’ or ‘Ryan’.  And the other reason for the dislike of the books is that has long been the unwritten rule that one does NOT write about one’s life in the Regiment.  It’s for this reason that the two writers mentioned are now persona non grata in the Regiment and its Association.  Mind you – I’m sure they’re crying all the way to the bank…. (Cultural information note to the U.S. contingent in the ROFFian Universe.)  Over the past few decades the British and especially the Canadians have developed the bad habit of viciously tearing down their heros as soon as they’ve elevated them.  While it’s always wise to view claims to heroism with a clear eye, the counter-claims from these sources should be viewed, at the very least, the same way.

Just to balance the accounts a bit – let me just say that several ex- members of the Regiment HAVE written books that are held in much higher esteem than the ‘McNab’ and ‘Ryan’ books, but these are (a) factual, (b) usually limited distribution through the Association, and (c) not glorifying or exaggerating any deeds or misdeeds. Knocking down heroes is a peculiar sport, but in the opinion of most members and ex-members of the Regiment, neither ‘McNab’ or ‘Ryan’ were heroes – they just did a bloody good E + E (escape and evasion) effort, then tried to cash in on this stuffed up patrol and make ‘heroes’ out of themselves. — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

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As a (shhh!) ex-member of the said regiment, back in the 60’s, allow me, as a long-time lurker here, to say a couple of words.  Andy ‘McNab’’s book is hugely exaggerated, especially about the number of Iraquis they allegedly ‘took out’ on the patrol which was a total stuff-up from day one.  There is another book about the same patrol, called "The One That Got Away" by Chris ‘Ryan’ (all pseudonyms) that is even more exaggerated and self-grandising. Now I’ll just fade silently back into "lurker-dom"

I’m aware that McNab’s book hasn’t received the best of reviews from his former associates, though to the best of my knowledge, the 250 number came from other sources, not McNab.  Having had a former SAS Flt. Lt. as a training officer, I know about their reticence regarding any sort of publicity.  So I wonder whether the regiment’s dislike of the book comes from perceived inaccuracies in the story or the fact that McNab has profited from matters that should not have been made public. (Cultural information note to the U.S. contingent in the ROFFian Universe.)  Over the past few decades the British and especially the Canadians have developed the bad habit of viciously tearing down their heros as soon as they’ve elevated them.  While it’s always wise to view claims to heroism with a clear eye, the counter-claims from these sources should be viewed, at the very least, the same way. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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SAS = ?

British special forces (Special Air Service) – originated during WW II as a raiding force to fight Rommel’s forces in Africa, and obviously it stuck together.  The man who started it (Stirling) was knighted about 10 years ago I believe. By the way, at one point Stirling was a POW in Colditz Castle, which was the inspiration for the computer game that "started it all" (yes, a shooter game that preceded Doom) – Castle Wolfenstein.  (There was also a board game called "Escape From Colditz".)  A later version of the computer game was "Spear of Destiny", where a commando was sent in to retrieve the spear that pierced the side of Christ, which was supposedly being kept by Himmler in the belief that Nazi armies would be invincible while it was in their possession (in keeping with his occult leanings.)  "Return to Castle Wolfenstein" is due out this fall, for more Nazi-killing goodness.  Boy is this OT.

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An SAS group was active for a brief time in South Yemen a few years ago (when there were *two* Yemens – now there is one).  These folks, like most shadow warriors are seldom seen, heard about only in rumor, and you surely wouldn’t want to wake up with them standing by your bed, if you are on the task list. This will likely be the sharpest edge of that terrible swift sword. Tom

I was involved in that little lot.  It was in the Radfan mountains in the mid-60s, (1966 to be exact) the mountain range between what was then South Yemen and the Protectorate of Aden, as the Brits were withdrawing from Aden, we were basically covering their collective backsides.  The terrain there was like the flipside of the moon, about 50degrees Celsius by day, and sub-zero at night, with rocks underfoot that could cut through a pair of tough desert boots in no time. Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave

One small difference of opinion if I may – the SEALs were the USA’s answer to the SAS, not the other way around  The whole idea of Special FOrces, where small teams of highly-trained individuals could wreak more havoc than a company of grunts, originated in the fertile minds of David Stirling, his brother Bill Stirling, Paddy Maine, Jock Lewis, and a few others in 1942. According to the Washington Post, they’ve been training in the Pakistani mountains for the past five years and before that, with the Pathan warriors against the Soviets.  If they follow standard SAS ops, most will speak the local language – they’ll concentrate on recon, demolition, and ambush; vectoring in a larger force for the capture and covering it on the extraction.  Then they’ll disappear again and we’ll probably never hear about their contribution.

22SAS has had a very long involvement in the middle east, and particularly in desert terrain, including Aden as above, Oman (southern area called Dhofar) etc etc, and the regiment was actually started in the northern deserts of Africa in 1942.  They are long-time masters of ‘low- intensity’ campaigns, fighting guerilla tactics and winning hearts and minds as well as using all sorts of means to stay undetected deep behind enemy lines and across borders.  They are primarily a recon and special ops outfit rather than front-line engagement troops. If anyone wants to get an inkling of current SAS ops, check out Andy McNab’s "Bravo Two Zero" about the Gulf War.  An 8 man SAS patrol lead by McNab on a Scud busting mission, was dropped inadvertently in the middle of two Iraqi divisions.  Their mission compromised right from the start, they made a 110 mile escape and evasion to the Syrian border.  One made it, three died (two from exposure) and four were captured at the Euphrates River, the border with Syria.  On the way, it was estimated that they took out over 250 Iraqi soldiers. They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. The old TV series Rat Patrol was, as is usual for Hollywood, stolen from SAS service history.  The series does give some sense of what

As a (shhh!) ex-member of the said regiment, back in the 60’s, allow me, as a long-time lurker here, to say a couple of words.  Andy ‘McNab’’s book is hugely exaggerated, especially about the number of Iraquis they allegedly ‘took out’ on the patrol which was a total stuff-up from day one.  There is another book about the same patrol, called "The One That Got Away" by Chris ‘Ryan’ (all pseudonyms) that is even more exaggerated and self-grandising. Now I’ll just fade silently back into "lurker-dom" — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

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Ditto Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – having read down to bobby’s post…..I’m impressed… john

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having read down to bobby’s post…..I’m impressed… john

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  The series does give some sense of what their WWII desert ops were like.  Hitler gave orders that any captured SAS soldiers were to be executed immediately as they were too dangerous to be left alive. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

        up the empire, peetah!         thanks to the brits from         their friend in the old north state         wayno         and if you think *they’re* tough, wait ’til they get a whiff of the 24th foot…the south wales borderers.

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Peter Collin: SAS = ? Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave

According to the Washington Post, they’ve been training in the Pakistani mountains for the past five years and before that, with the Pathan warriors against the Soviets.  If they follow standard SAS ops, most will speak the local language – they’ll concentrate on recon, demolition, and ambush; vectoring in a larger force for the capture and covering it on the extraction.  Then they’ll disappear again and we’ll probably never hear about their contribution. If anyone wants to get an inkling of current SAS ops, check out Andy McNab’s "Bravo Two Zero" about the Gulf War.  An 8 man SAS patrol lead by McNab on a Scud busting mission, was dropped inadvertently in the middle of two Iraqi divisions.  Their mission compromised right from the start, they made a 110 mile escape and evasion to the Syrian border.  One made it, three died (two from exposure) and four were captured at the Euphrates River, the border with Syria.  On the way, it was estimated that they took out over 250 Iraqi soldiers. They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. The old TV series Rat Patrol was, as is usual for Hollywood, stolen from SAS service history.  The series does give some sense of what their WWII desert ops were like.  Hitler gave orders that any captured SAS soldiers were to be executed immediately as they were too dangerous to be left alive. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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SAS = ?

Special Air Service. — Gary (Email address is munged with x’s)

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Peter Collin: SAS = ?

Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave

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I haven’t seen it mentioned on CNN but the Toronto Sun has reported a fire fight between a Taliban force and an SAS recon patrol. Apparently, they’ve been in country for nearly a week, looking for bin Laden. wish ‘em luck Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Peter Charles: I haven’t seen it mentioned on CNN but the Toronto Sun has reported a fire fight between a Taliban force and an SAS recon patrol. Apparently, they’ve been in country for nearly a week, looking for bin Laden. wish ‘em luck

Damn straight, Peter!  Hope they get him.  Betcha you’re poppin’ some buttons! <g Dave

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SAS = ?

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aka "m-14" …special forces for Britain i believe… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SAS = ?

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Question:

I’ve been told that the current up-and-coming pack animal is the lowly goat. I’m not kidding. I understand that the forest service uses them as pack animals in Idaho. They are very sure footed and can eat anything. They gotta be cheap, and you can eat them in a pinch or when you’re done with them.                         Dale Lindsley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

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I’ve been told that the current up-and-coming pack animal is the lowly goat. I’m not kidding. I understand that the forest service uses them as pack animals in Idaho. They are very sure footed and can eat anything. They gotta be cheap, and you can eat them in a pinch or when you’re done with them.

        That was in 1995 in the Sawtooth NRA.  Might have been tried other places as well.   Didn’t work out and when I was back this summer, the goats were history.  Basically, they don’t do well when the person changes from trip to trip.  They take well to one owner and that’s pretty much it.  Not a good behavior pattern for a stock animal.  That was pretty much the behavior they had when my folks raised goats.  It always took some time before they could deal with changes in owners and routine.  The habit of eating anything was detrimental as well since they kept eating things which poisoned them. They are sure footed, we had to put the corner braces on the fences on the outside, othewise they’d walk up the brace and be gone over the fence.   Usually not far, we’d find them in the rhodendron – flat out with blue protruding tongue – take ‘em to the vet for the antidote. They did make good bar-b-que though.  Meat was a bit tough but I’ve never seen any that a pressure cooker couldn’t soften. Linux.  Isn’t he is the character that drags the blanket around all the time?

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That is a training issue I take mine up to the snow every spring. They carry the X country skis up. The group skis down and one person leads the llamas back down. Como Say Llamas www.llamapacker.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim- Funny you should mention Llamas, especially in Oregon. I was up on North Sister this weekend with an extremely experienced climbing friend. Anyway, he told me that one time, forget how long ago, he was up there and ran into a group of folks that had rented some Llamas for the weekend for just your purpose. The intent was to take them into Camp Lake by South Sister. Anyway, they got a ways up the trail and the Llamas absolutely REFUSED to cross snow. They tried and tried and tried, and couldn’t get them to cross snow. They waited a day and tried again. Nope. Not happening. If any of your trips involve snow, I’d check into this. Maybe it was just a training issue, maybe not. As far as I know, Llamas come from snow country but maybe if they’ve never seen it, they don’t want nothin’ to do with it. — Matt Jarvis addressing. I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

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And some won’t cross large puddles if they can’t see the bottom. Obviously you want a trained one. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim- …. Anyway, they got a ways up the trail and the Llamas absolutely REFUSED to cross snow. They tried and tried and tried, and couldn’t get them to cross snow…..

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I just rented 2 llamas that hiked from Yosemite to Tahoe 153 miles. they crossed every obstical imaginable. They carried 90#s each and ranged from 8 to 12 miles a day with 1 lay over day. Como Say Llamas www.llamapacker.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And some won’t cross large puddles if they can’t see the bottom. Obviously you want a trained one. Mike Jim- …. Anyway, they got a ways up the trail and the Llamas absolutely REFUSED to cross snow. They tried and tried and tried, and couldn’t get them to cross snow…..

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Jim- Funny you should mention Llamas, especially in Oregon. I was up on North Sister this weekend with an extremely experienced climbing friend. Anyway, he told me that one time, forget how long ago, he was up there and ran into a group of folks that had rented some Llamas for the weekend for just your purpose. The intent was to take them into Camp Lake by South Sister. Anyway, they got a ways up the trail and the Llamas absolutely REFUSED to cross snow. They tried and tried and tried, and couldn’t get them to cross snow. They waited a day and tried again. Nope. Not happening. If any of your trips involve snow, I’d check into this. Maybe it was just a training issue, maybe not. As far as I know, Llamas come from snow country but maybe if they’ve never seen it, they don’t want nothin’ to do with it. — Matt Jarvis addressing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

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Llamas are great on the trail, but you need special expertise to handle them.  They will eat anything that grows along side the trail. Including plants that will kill them.  The Mt. LeConte Lodge in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park is stocked via Llamas.  The handlers take them up the same trail three times a week, and know all the danger areas by heart.  Earlier this spring, a slide made their normal route up the Trillium Gap trail impassable, so they re-routed up Bullhead.  One llama keeled over dead right on the trail, and two others died back at the ranch.  They believe it was from rhoderdendron poisoning. Since then, they started using modified muzzels to prevent re-occurance. Also, even though they are easier on the trails than horses, many National Parks do not recognize this fact. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

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You might check into goats. Keith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

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You might check into goats. Keith

     FWIW..  I was reading a book about flyfishing mountain lakes by a well-known (to fishermen, at least) author.  There was an entire chapter about pack animals.  The author said goats were the best, horses worst, and llamas and all others in between. — Yellowstone TRs:  http://www.cis.ksu.edu/~dha5446/hiking/yellowstone/

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In defence of the llama….They only spit at each other over food or females…unless poorly trained and abused they never spit at people.  In the back country they do less damage than a pair of hiking boots, due to their padded feet.They can be turned loose when at camp and do about the same damage as a deer. Como Say Llamas Llama packing and llama rentals www.llamapacker.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Know they spit when annoyed so duck a lot.One golf course uses them as caddies for the golf bags.Quite a sight-men wearing lime green pants and mauve and chartreuse shirts following a llama that poops all over the place-can’t quite housetrain them. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Know they spit when annoyed so duck a lot.One golf course uses them as caddies for the golf bags.Quite a sight-men wearing lime green pants and mauve and chartreuse shirts following a llama that poops all over the place-can’t quite housetrain them. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

Response:

I operate a llama packing business in CA, I also rent them. You might check out my site listed below I have some info about them. You need at least 2 llamas, as they are herd animals. If you have an acre that is more than enough. If you are just getting started I would recommend 1 to be trained…..This means trained on the trail, at least a season or a couple hundred miles of loaded trail experience. It will make your experience much more enjoyable as the trained llama will train the green one for you. I do not sell them, but I do know where they are (most of the time). llamas for packing should be tall and narrow, but most important is they have to have the right attitude. I would be more than happy to talk in detail about what to look for. The prices average $500 for an untrained ( or very little) to $1500 for a fully trained llama. As with a backpack and hiking boots, the saddle is the most important part, I recommend the Sopris saddle ( about $600) ouch…worth every penny. David Drewry Como Say Llamas www.llamapacker.com 916 923 0408

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a really screwed up knee and backpacking is getting very difficult. I’ve seen various pack animals on trails and I’m wondering about Llamas… what do they cost, what kind of care do they require, and what amount of pasture/property do they need? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jim in Oregon The road goes ever, ever on…..

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah HF, I remember you telling me that a week or two ago… I figure either you’re a Gen-U-Wine masochist or you REALLY like to drive. Wait a minute, you’re hosting the dangdest convention of nitwits and yahoos since the 1979 Star Trek convention… OK, so you’re a masochist. But for me: 1. I HATE to drive. For 14 years I averaged 50-70k per year on the job. Don’t wanna do long drives unless I have to. I even make my wife drive when we go somewhere together in town. 2. I LIKE to fly. Hey, I’m fishing around for some sky time here! 3. When YOU drove it, there was probably no posted speed limit, and your biggest traffic concern was getting the horses out of the way of your ‘32 Coupe, since you were going close to 100! Ah, the joys of a misspent youth… Mike

It was a 35 Ford Coupe.  And it wasn’t far from 100, but on the high side! Actually, it got a lot easier since Kentucky finished the Interstate. Our oldest daughter was a Professor at the University of Georgia at Athens for a while, and we made the trip several times recently.   I just can’t talk my wife into making those trips in the airplane. She keeps insisting that it would be fine, but she has to be BACK on time!   HF

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I just can’t talk my wife into making those trips in the airplane. She keeps insisting that it would be fine, but she has to be BACK on time!

I suppose suggesting you borrow, rent or buy a Mooney is out of the question! Warren

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I just can’t talk my wife into making those trips in the airplane. She keeps insisting that it would be fine, but she has to be BACK on time! I suppose suggesting you borrow, rent or buy a Mooney is out of the question! Warren

It doesn’t have anything to do with the particular airplane.  She can drive, but I am the only pilot!  Need I say more … HF

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Mike, Mike, Mike, You’ll have to do better than that. 1. I HATE to drive. For 14 years I averaged 50-70k per year on the job. Don’t wanna do long drives unless I have to. I even make my wife drive when we go somewhere together in town.

So, bring her along.  And let her drive.  Tell her it shows her just how much you trust her.  My family came last year and plans to come this year. Go to sleep as soon as you hit interstate and when you wake up, you’ll be there.  "0" minutes travel time. 2. I LIKE to fly. Hey, I’m fishing around for some sky time here!

When you get there, you’ll fly.  Guaranteed. 3. When YOU drove it, there was probably no posted speed limit, and your biggest traffic concern was getting the horses out of the way of your ‘32 Coupe, since you were going close to 100! Ah, the joys of a misspent youth…

Possibly.  But the speed limit now is at least 70 and most likely 75 so there’s not that much difference.  Besides, you’ll be asleep and the wife’s driving so what do you care?  :-) Next incredibly lame argument? John Stricker — why I had to put it in.  If one of you real humans wants to contact me: "I didn’t spend all these years getting to the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian"

Response:

Yeah HF, I remember you telling me that a week or two ago… I figure either you’re a Gen-U-Wine masochist or you REALLY like to drive. Wait a minute, you’re hosting the dangdest convention of nitwits and yahoos since the 1979 Star Trek convention… OK, so you’re a masochist. But for me: 1. I HATE to drive. For 14 years I averaged 50-70k per year on the job. Don’t wanna do long drives unless I have to. I even make my wife drive when we go somewhere together in town. 2. I LIKE to fly. Hey, I’m fishing around for some sky time here! 3. When YOU drove it, there was probably no posted speed limit, and your biggest traffic concern was getting the horses out of the way of your ‘32 Coupe, since you were going close to 100! Ah, the joys of a misspent youth… Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since it’s too far to drive for a 3 day weekend, and since I’m too poor to own/rent/fly myself (not to mention I’m only a wannabe pilot so far)(oh-oh, did I mention the unmentionable?), my choices for P’ville ‘99 are to hitchhike, fly the "big iron" (I’m checking prices this weekend), or my preferred means of travel would be to catch a ride and share expenses with someone who’ll be passing through the Atlanta area on their way there… Soooo…… Too far to drive for a three day weekend!  I used to commute to Atlanta from Pinckneyville.   HF

Mike Patterson   –   Deacon Blues AMA #598863  EAA #523920  NRA #BVS2395T  ICQ #7161589 < http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatterson "Sharing the things I know and love with those of my kind…" Humans please ignore the following- More SPAM bait: http://barnstormers.dyn.ml.org/email.html

Response:

Since it’s too far to drive for a 3 day weekend, and since I’m too poor to own/rent/fly myself (not to mention I’m only a wannabe pilot so far)(oh-oh, did I mention the unmentionable?), my choices for P’ville ‘99 are to hitchhike, fly the "big iron" (I’m checking prices this weekend), or my preferred means of travel would be to catch a ride and share expenses with someone who’ll be passing through the Atlanta area on their way there… Soooo……

Too far to drive for a three day weekend!  I used to commute to Atlanta from Pinckneyville.   HF

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Since it’s too far to drive for a 3 day weekend, and since I’m too poor to own/rent/fly myself (not to mention I’m only a wannabe pilot so far)(oh-oh, did I mention the unmentionable?), my choices for P’ville ‘99 are to hitchhike, fly the "big iron" (I’m checking prices this weekend), or my preferred means of travel would be to catch a ride and share expenses with someone who’ll be passing through the Atlanta area on their way there… Soooo…… Is anyone in this forum planning to make the pilgrimage, have need of a seat polisher, beer holder and extra wallet, AND willing to stop and pick up a hitchhiker somewhere around Atlanta? Mike "I make long run-on sentences so I can save all the periods to use at the end…" Patterson PS maybe you better check out my web page first, especially if you’ns be a Dimocrat. OTOH, that could make it MORE fun, eh? Mike Patterson   –   Deacon Blues AMA #598863  EAA #523920  NRA #BVS2395T  ICQ #7161589 < http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatterson "Sharing the things I know and love with those of my kind…" Humans please ignore the following- More SPAM bait: http://barnstormers.dyn.ml.org/email.html

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Cut the crap Mike… You Southern boys are always "poor mouthing" your lot in life. Checking your website, your about to sell a house? $116, 000 should get you a round trip ticket to anyplace of your choosing, unless you drop by the casinos here in Kansas City ! Not owning a plane, certainly provides you with even more disposable income than us owner types. Checking with Expedia/Flight Wizard, a commercial round trip flight can be had for as little as $236.00 RIGHT NOW. See…  http://expedia.msn.com/daily/home/default.hts So, book it and rest easy. If your good with a wrench, book one way and maybe HF will keep you busy attending to the needs of the "Red Lady". He has plenty of "cot space’ for the homeless. Just bring your own cot. High Flyer IS touchy about snoozing on his. Don’t ask how I know.  <g Bob – already signed up for P’ville 99 – U. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Since it’s too far to drive for a 3 day weekend, and since I’m too poor to own/rent/fly myself (not to mention I’m only a wannabe pilot so far)(oh-oh, did I mention the unmentionable?), my choices for P’ville ‘99 are to hitchhike, fly the "big iron" (I’m checking prices this weekend), or my preferred means of travel would be to catch a ride and share expenses with someone who’ll be passing through the Atlanta area on their way there… Mike Patterson  

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Question:

<SNIP But who cares what of it is true and what isn’t, or who was "in on it" or who wasn’t?

Quite a few people care what is true, and what is not. Nobody on this group was "in" on anything. There was no collusion of any kind. I had no contact whatsoever with anybody else on this group regarding my actions. People who know me figured out pretty quickly that I was behaving at least oddly, and formed their own opinions. For somebody who does not care at all what other people think, you sure are curious. As Mr. LaCourse more than fairly observed. He also thought I was behaving like a loony, but he was prepared to forgive and forget based on past experience. I am also most grateful to him for his fairness in this regard. My arrival "out of the blue" as you put it, was the result of a person attributing opinions to me, which I have never averred, and do not hold. To whit, that "Gink is worse than spent nuclear fuel". This was e-mailed to me, and as a consequence, I responded to the post on ROFF.  The result was a personal attack, with no regard whatever for the truth of the matter. I responded in kind. Thus began the whole episode. MC

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <SNIP I’m not sure how the people that Mike has been "arguing" with are supposed to know this. If this IS true, he is doing it at other’s expense and it has really gotten old. If it’s just a typical ROFF argument, like I think it is, so be it. People will look at the two sides as they will. There are always two sides to these things. Willi Willi, I fear you err in this respect. I was not arguing, there would be no point in arguing against a personal attack. You basically have two choices in such a case, either you ignore it, and hope everybody else does, or you defend yourself as best you can. It is not necessary to "know"  why you are being attacked, it is sufficient that this is indeed the case.  I limited my "attacks" to those who attacked me. All attacks of this nature are done at somebody else

Question:

Anybody out there know genus-species for the Alder Fly? Email or post is fine Bill S.

Response:

Anybody out there know genus-species for the Alder Fly? Email or post is fine Bill S.

Bill, Family is Sialidae and only the single genus, Sialis, occurs in North America.  Not being an entomologist I could be mistaken but I am fairly certain of my resource.  Hope this helps. James Ehlers Underhill, Vermont Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service Vermont Fly Fishing, Hunting, River and Woodland Outings http://pobox.com/~uncle

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody out there know genus-species for the Alder Fly? Email or post is fine Bill S. Bill, it’s funny you mentioned it, and I have heard it before,and can’t remember, but it then occured to me that my grandfather gave me a book written in the 50’s by the Sportman’s cigarettes company,it’s

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James Ehlers is correct. Alderflies belong to the family Sialidae, and there is a single genus, Sialis. There are about 20 or so species. They are in the order Megaloptera, at least that is where most entomologists place them, although I sometimes see Megaloptera listed as a suborder of Neuroptera. — Tim Lysyk http://www.telusplanet.net/public/cnangler/html

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Question:

If you leave them outside in a worm box, watch out for ants, they will go for the dead ones and really take over the whole box. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why your yard ? Wait till the rain falls and the temp. is about 54-56 deg. Go out in a neighborhood that doesn’t have curbs and pick them up off the street NEAR the edge of the grass. Put them in the fridge (about 45-50 deg.) in a container of damp (use rain water)buss bedding (wal-mart) and they will keep for weeks.(pick out the dead ones once in a while)..Enjoy                                                                       SuqRivGui                                                       Allen

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got a old crank telephone and some wire and a couple of long rods???…use your imagination and wear rubber boots and gloves.be sure to go when it is wet .  they can jump about 2-3′ so cath them in a bucket as they fall.  no mess. It also help to read any storey about Mark Twain to them exactually 34 minutes before cranking the phone..  

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I have heard of a few things to gather earthworms. {snip} Oh, there is one more way.  Lay in the yard and make a sound like an apple.

EXCELLENT!!!! Seriously, I can’t stop laughing!!! Remember: a bad day of fishing is better than a good day at work!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Once you have gone fishing, put the extra worms in a flower bed, or in your garden.  They will help the soil, and soon, you will have a reliable source of wigglies.  Don’t poison them with insecticides of fertilizer, though. Steve, the DsrtTravlr

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try a 5 gallon bucket of soapy water on damp ground that you know contains crawlers 10–15 minutes should have all you need.

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conesus lake (finger lakes region) $500/week see http://members.aol.com/cobbshill/cottage.html for details http://members.aol.com/cobbshill

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At dusk just put the sprinkler on in the front yard,  let it run for an hour or two, until the ground is soaked.  After dark turn it off, get your flashlight and pail and go pick them up.  Because of the water in the ground they will be lying right on top.  It works like a charm in my yard although it is kinda of a muddy procedure.  Good luck.. Lorry…….I fish, therefore I am

Response:

I am really intersted in trying to catch my own nite crawlers in my yard.  I’ve heard of sticking a pitch fork in the ground and wiggling it, watering the lawn, and a lot of other things, but from your personell experiences, what is the best way to get them?  Oh yeah, what is a GRUNT WORM?  Are they in Michigan or what?  And one more thing, besides this one, what is another good fishing newsgroup?  Thanks so much, talk to you later!

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I am really intersted in trying to catch my own nite crawlers in my yard.  I’ve heard of sticking a pitch fork in the ground and wiggling it, watering the lawn, and a lot of other things, but from your personell experiences, what is the best way to get them?  Oh yeah, what is a GRUNT WORM?  Are they in Michigan or what?  And one more thing, besides this one, what is another good fishing newsgroup?  Thanks so much, talk to you later!

Hi Matt, If you have them in your yard it won’t be hard. Some people use electricity to get them out, but it can be a little dangerous. We went out at night with a can or bag and a little flashlight in our mouth on our hands and knees. You would see the night crawlers shin and then just grab them. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

I am really intersted in trying to catch my own nite crawlers in my yard.  I’ve heard of sticking a pitch fork in the ground and wiggling it, watering the lawn, and a lot of other things, but from your personell experiences, what is the best way to get them?  Oh yeah, what is a GRUNT WORM?  Are they in Michigan or what?  And one more thing, besides this one, what is another good fishing newsgroup?  Thanks so much, talk to you later!

I always liked catching night crawlers in Upstate Ny.  The night dew would usually bring them out.  You can find them just about everywhere, especially in gardens and flower beds. Alos, you need to wear sneakers and walk very lightly.  When you grab one, do not pull too hard or it will break off.  I first just stop it from going back in, and then pull gently straight up or at the angle of the hole.  Usually can get about 12 dozen in about 2 hours.   You can keep them easily enough, too.  We would buy the worm bedding, or mix some dirt with moist dead leaves.  Keep them in a large container in the basement where it is always cool and damp.  They’ll keep all summer, and will even reproduce. Good hunting, Joe

Response:

I have heard of a few things to gather earthworms. One is electricity.  It is hazardous. Alternating current worm getters were sold, and then recalled when people ended up laying in the grass and writhing along with the worms.  I have heard that the current from a battery charger will work.  With any electricity, you have to be very careful.   Grunting for worms is when you take two thin pieces of wood about 2-3 feet long.  Originally, they used two barrel staves.  One was held with one hand pushing it down into the ground.  The other stave was raked across the one in the ground with a violin bow motion making a "grunting" noise. The frequency of the sounds would cause the worms to become uncomfortable, and they would come to the surface.   I have also heard that spraying a light bleach solution on grass makes them come out.  Don’t know what it does to the yard. I think that the time of day has a lot to do with gathering worms, with the evening and very early morning hours being the best.  I have had good success after a rain, too.   Oh, there is one more way.  Lay in the yard and make a sound like an apple. Once you have gone fishing, put the extra worms in a flower bed, or in your garden.  They will help the soil, and soon, you will have a reliable source of wigglies.  Don’t poison them with insecticides of fertilizer, though. Steve, the DsrtTravlr

Response:

I am really intersted in trying to catch my own nite crawlers in my yard. —  Thanks so much, talk to you later!

Find and get a product called "Worm-Up"  Believe me this stuff really works, is harmless both to the worms and your yard and you’ll get all the "Dew Worms" (which is what your "nite crawler" is usually called in Ontario!!!) that you’ll ever need!! Just follow the package instructions and you can pick ‘em up right  off the top of the ground, in broad daylight!!!!  Even in places where you’d never expect to find ‘em, like an asphalt driveway, maybe? I don’t have any commercial interest in this product, but I got a sample package at the "Canadian Sportsman Show" many years ago and when I found it really worked I went and bought some more! "Le Baron’s" always carries it in Canada, anyway. Phil

Response:

Why your yard ? Wait till the rain falls and the temp. is about 54-56 deg. Go out in a neighborhood that doesn’t have curbs and pick them up off the street NEAR the edge of the grass. Put them in the fridge (about 45-50 deg.) in a container of damp (use rain water)buss bedding (wal-mart) and they will keep for weeks.(pick out the dead ones once in a while)..Enjoy                                                                       SuqRivGui                                                       Allen

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Question:

I’m headed to Palm Springs for a week in early April and was wondering if there are any trout streams remotely close by or is that area all simply desert and dried up lakes?  Any info anyone has would be appreciated.  1st time going to Palm Springs.  Is all the fly fishing for trout in Middle and Northern California? TO WET LINES AND FULL TUMMYS, Chris Willman La Crosse, Wisconsin

Response:

Try the area around Lake Isabella in Kern County, especially the north fork of the Kern River.  The rainbows are small, but a lot of fun anyway.

Response:

A lot is going to depend on the weather and snowpack. The Santa Ana River in and out of the canyon. Deep Creek flowing northwest out of the Running Springs area is some good fishing also. Holcomb Creek is a trib. to Deep Creek and also had some good trout in the lower end, but that is a good hike. Whitewater Creek flows off of the south side of Mt. Gorgonio and also harbors trout and a hydroelectric powerplant(!)   It’s been a while since I’ve fished down there, so you might want to check at one of the local shops like Marriot’s in Fullerton for further information. have fun! Jim, Nevada Jim’s Outdoor Sports, Elko, NV

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Question:

Hello to all, I am planning a vacation for next year and would like to get some information about FF in Belize.  I am considering a combination of FF and SCUBA diving and have concluded that the Turneffe Lodge would be able to accommedate my needs. Could anyone please provide + – information about FF or SCUBA in the country of Belize. Thank you for your time —         Mark A. Covian         Denver, CO

Response:

Hello to all, I am planning a vacation for next year and would like to get some information about FF in Belize.  I am considering a combination of FF and SCUBA diving and have concluded that the Turneffe Lodge would be able to accommedate my needs.

Wow, underwater flycasting! (couldn’t resist <g) — Blair Sharpe Ottawa, ON, Canada

Response:

Mark I just got back form Belize last spring.  I dove and flyfished.  THe flyfishing guides real expensive but I managed to chase bonefish on some of the keys off of Placentia.  I also had a lot of fun chasing Jacks in some of the smaller lagoons.  I had a blast. If youhave questions give me a call 213 461-34222

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