Question:

Go to Cabelas.  They have a number of low priced rods that will fit you needs.  I have heard many good comments on them here and elsewhere. Crusty

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I personally would go on ebay and buy an old fiberglass rod. They cast dang near the same as bamboo, and cost a little less. Bamboo is an option to. It seems most graphite rods are all to well into fast action and all. I think this takes away from presentation. The old bamboos and fiberglass rods are great. I’ve been fishing an old heddon pal allot these days, with a #5DT. It’s probably the best small stream fly rod I own. I think I paid 40 bucks for it on ebay. — Tim Apple www.flyfishingaddict.com Hey All, I currently own a fairly fast action 9′ 6 wt rod that is too over-powered to manage a consistently delicate presentation with short casts on smaller trout streams.  In response to this problem, I’ve been wondering about a 4-piece 4 wt rod that is as affordable as possible.  I’m one of those very low budget fly fishers.  I’m open to all suggestions for rods, as well as retailers online.  Also, a thoughtful explanation for your recommendation would be appreciated.  Thanks!

Response:

Hey All, I currently own a fairly fast action 9′ 6 wt rod that is too over-powered to manage a consistently delicate presentation with short casts on smaller trout streams.  In response to this problem, I’ve been wondering about a 4-piece 4 wt rod that is as affordable as possible.  I’m one of those very low budget fly fishers.  I’m open to all suggestions for rods, as well as retailers online.  Also, a thoughtful explanation for your recommendation would be appreciated.  Thanks!

Do I smell a troll? Russell Just wondering.

Response:

I personally would go on ebay and buy an old fiberglass rod. They cast dang near the same as bamboo, and cost a little less. Bamboo is an option to. It seems most graphite rods are all to well into fast action and all. I think this takes away from presentation. The old bamboos and fiberglass rods are great. I’ve been fishing an old heddon pal allot these days, with a #5DT. It’s probably the best small stream fly rod I own. I think I paid 40 bucks for it on ebay. — Tim Apple www.flyfishingaddict.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey All, I currently own a fairly fast action 9′ 6 wt rod that is too over-powered to manage a consistently delicate presentation with short casts on smaller trout streams.  In response to this problem, I’ve been wondering about a 4-piece 4 wt rod that is as affordable as possible.  I’m one of those very low budget fly fishers.  I’m open to all suggestions for rods, as well as retailers online.  Also, a thoughtful explanation for your recommendation would be appreciated.  Thanks!

Response:

Hey All, I currently own a fairly fast action 9′ 6 wt rod that is too over-powered to manage a consistently delicate presentation with short casts on smaller trout streams.  In response to this problem, I’ve been wondering about a 4-piece 4 wt rod that is as affordable as possible.  I’m one of those very low budget fly fishers.  I’m open to all suggestions for rods, as well as retailers online.  Also, a thoughtful explanation for your recommendation would be appreciated.  Thanks!

Response:

Question:

Hey Folks, Does anyone have any advice on where to go in Southern Wisconsin for a short flyfishing trip. Don’t know much about the area and I’m traeling from Western Indiana. Thanks in advance. Elliott

Response:

"ilmbaba" wrote… Hey Folks, Does anyone have any advice on where to go in Southern Wisconsin for a short flyfishing trip. Don’t know much about the area and I’m traeling from Western Indiana. Thanks in advance. Elliott

What is your definition of Souther Wisconsin? What is your definition of a short flyfishing trip? Are you fishing for trout or other species? From Madison west to the Mississippi. From 30 miles south of Madison to over 100 miles north of Madison are 100 trout streams or more. Contact the Wisc. DNR. Contact the Madison Chapter of TU.   Get on the web and do a search.   You’ll find something I’m sure. Good luck. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "ilmbaba" wrote… Hey Folks, Does anyone have any advice on where to go in Southern Wisconsin for a short flyfishing trip. Don’t know much about the area and I’m traeling from Western Indiana. Thanks in advance. Elliott What is your definition of Souther Wisconsin? What is your definition of a short flyfishing trip? Are you fishing for trout or other species? From Madison west to the Mississippi. From 30 miles south of Madison to over 100 miles north of Madison are 100 trout streams or more. Contact the Wisc. DNR. Contact the Madison Chapter of TU.   Get on the web and do a search.   You’ll find something I’m sure. Good luck.

Or you could just contact Wolfgang since he thinks telling everybody about the streams he fishes is okay.  He doesn’t mind the impact and enjoys the company. Perhaps he can even recommend some good books or magazines too. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "ilmbaba" wrote… Hey Folks, Does anyone have any advice on where to go in Southern Wisconsin for a short flyfishing trip. Don’t know much about the area and I’m traeling from Western Indiana. Thanks in advance. Elliott What is your definition of Souther Wisconsin? What is your definition of a short flyfishing trip? Are you fishing for trout or other species? From Madison west to the Mississippi. From 30 miles south of Madison to over 100 miles north of Madison are 100 trout streams or more. Contact the Wisc. DNR. Contact the Madison Chapter of TU. Get on the web and do a search. You’ll find something I’m sure. Good luck. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

Sorry for being so vague. Southern Wisconsin would be from a little above Madison or so. I am aiming for trout (or getting laughed at by same said trout). Short would be two to 2 1/2 days including travel. I have done alot of research and there are, as you said, alot of streams. I guess what I’m looking for is info from folks that have fished some of them and if anyone has an idea of which ones to try first or avoid.

Response:

Question:

I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.   I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Response:

I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.   I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

        why not just post all their pictures, with names, family member’s names, and school lunch schedule.  that ought to make *somebody* happy…. wayno

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.  I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott      why not just post all their pictures, with names, family member’s names, and school lunch schedule.  that ought to make *somebody* happy…. wayno

It’s a good thing my new Cabela’s clearance moleskin shirt sheds nasally- ejected coffee like water off a duck’s ass, or I would be really pissed right now   Scott

Response:

A group outing makes the most sense.  Contact your local Scout office and volunteer.  Definitely, if there’s a Scout camp nearby that would be an ideal opportunity because they are heavy on merit badges during camp.  On the off chance that they already offer the program at camp, remember that not all the boys can make it to camp, so it would be an excellent gesture to offer a separate program. You can get some good info here: http://www.bsaflyfishing.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A group outing makes the most sense.  Contact your local Scout office and volunteer.  Definitely, if there’s a Scout camp nearby that would be an ideal opportunity because they are heavy on merit badges during camp.  On the off chance that they already offer the program at camp, remember that not all the boys can make it to camp, so it would be an excellent gesture to offer a separate program. You can get some good info here: http://www.bsaflyfishing.com/ I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Thanks, Stan.  I’ll let you know what we come up with. Scott

Response:

I served my term as assistant scoutmaster and have helped do this before there was a flyfishing badge.  It was just a fishing badge at the time and three of us did it for the scouts in our sons troop and one other. Call the local counsel (there on the web) and get a list of the troops near you.  They will have the names and phone numbers of the troop Scoutmasters.  Call the troop leaders and tell them what you are willing to do.  They will be all over you.  They are always looking for and welcome help. The scouts have booklets that detail the steps for earning every merit badge.  The emphasis is to have the scouts do all the work; your role is to be teacher and advisor. You can run the program for the whole troop or for just a couple of boys, depends on how many are interested. It’s the boys who decide if they want to get the badge. If your names on the list as an advisor some boys will seek you out. Some of the things we did were:  1.) Gave hands on demos on fly tying at one of their regular meetings.  We started using a parachute cord and an 8/0 hook and then let them go with the six vices and various materials we brought. They all managed to tie a couple of flies.  2.) Depending on where they meet you can bring in some rods and give casting instructions. 3.) You can let them come to your house and work at your bench and tie a few flies. .  You have to have at least two boys there at a time, no one on one instruction is allowe.  Let them see you stuff, explain how it works and maybe cast some in your back yard.  This is the point where some of them become lifetime flyfishers.  4.) You take them on an outing.  This part may educate you as much as them.  Pick a spot that safe and has catchable fish.  I wouldn’t count on a lake at a Boy Scout Camp having any cacheable fish. This is where you will need more help.  Get more volunteers for the trip one on one instruction is a big help here.    Twenty wild kids on a river with fly rods, wading, throwing rocks, and just being boys. It’s a great experience.  I cannot recommend it enough. .     – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.   I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Response:

The scouts have booklets that detail the steps for earning every merit badge.

Apparently it will cost $15,000 to print up all the booklets and the scouts are currently seeking donations to defray that cost. Mu

Response:

I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something.

There’s one on the White river in central WI.  Great hex hatch too.  Don’t know about a dozen or so scouts flailing the water in the dark though. Wolfgang

Response:

Don’t know about a dozen or so scouts flailing the water in the dark though.

A noble quest, but I don’t think I’d wanna be the responsible party that hands them a fish hook or anything else that could potentially put me on the defendent end of a PI suit when somebody sticks a hook in his eye.   Maybe a dozen pairs of cheap safety glasses would be a good investment. Call me paranoid, Joe F.

Response:

A noble quest, but I don’t think I’d wanna be the responsible party that hands them a fish hook or anything else that could potentially put me on the defendent end of a PI suit when somebody sticks a hook in his eye.   Maybe a dozen pairs of cheap safety glasses would be a good investment. Call me paranoid, Joe F.

Both TU and the Scouts have mechanisms to deal with insurance issues.   Safetly glasses should be mandatory.  I won’t cast without them.  I also walk around with a whistle in my vest, but I’m paranoid. Scott

Response:

Wiscoy Creek runs right through Camp Sam Wood right near Pike, NY.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Response:

Both TU and the Scouts have mechanisms to deal with insurance issues. Safetly glasses should be mandatory.  I won’t cast without them.  I also walk around with a whistle in my vest, but I’m paranoid.

It’s been my limited experience that should anything unfortunate happen, TU, BSA, the rodmaker, the hook manufacturer, and you personally will get named in a suit.   Sure, you’d probably get out of any liability, but it’ll still cost a few shiny nickles in legal fees.   Lawsuits are a bitch for the innocent.   Didn’t mean to get so serious about it, but being married to a (former) property/casualty insurance agent will do that to you.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wiscoy Creek runs right through Camp Sam Wood right near Pike, NY. I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Thanks.  There’s also a pretty nice campground right on the Eastkoy that might be suitable.  Not many tent spots, though.  Seems taken up by permanent RVs Scott

Response:

I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.   I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

well, I don’t know about good water compared to other areas, but in NJ there’s the Big Flat Brook that goes through Stokes State Forest which has an adjacent Boy Scout Camp. The BFB is known for decent trout FFing. Rob

Response:

Question:

Great job, Mike.  I took the liberty of posting it at www.Maineflyfishing.com, a site hosted by our local Orvis dealer.

Response:

The old ‘discount bin’ section in the cellar is also gone.  Used to pick up oddball sized hooks, and the occasional real prize down there

Stan, the last time I was there, (last fall), they had moved the discount section to the lower level rear of the building with a separate entrance from the main store. They also opened up another discount shop in a strip mall in Manchester Center.(off rte 30 IIRC)  I always stop when I’m in the area. Got an entire year’s supply of dry fly hooks a few years ago at half price. (discontinued models) They usually have a good selection of Trident rods at 40% off. Hoe was the attendance at the casting classes? George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

George: The downstairs section was all sweaters, jackets and dog beds and a very limited corner devoted to weird fly tying stuff – nothing at all useful. All the old rods and miscellany were missing.  I saw the new off-site location in the building on Rt 30 but it looked closed – and nestled in among the ‘factory outlet’ stuff, we assumed it would be all clothes anyways. Northeast Utilities got about 16 people to sign up for the flyfishing classes last Saturday.  Nice bunch of people, four or five women, a couple of older guys, some had experience surf casting, many were spin fishers. Thomas & Thomas was kind enough to lend them a bunch of demo rods (HS 905 I think – cast very nice).  Mostly I went around the group ‘unlearning’ spin casting behaviors.  I had a group of about 6 guys who were all doing the same thing – throwing their back loop onto the ground, starting the forward stroke when the loop was only half unrolled, etc.  After an hour or so we had most of them throwing about 30 feet of line.  When I help out a class like that I think I learn as much as I teach.  Nothing like having all the bad examples to look at to show you what you do wrong yourself. –Stan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stan, the last time I was there, (last fall), they had moved the discount section to the lower level rear of the building with a separate entrance from the main store. They also opened up another discount shop in a strip mall in Manchester Center.(off rte 30 IIRC)  I always stop when I’m in the area. Got an entire year’s supply of dry fly hooks a few years ago at half price. (discontinued models) They usually have a good selection of Trident rods at 40% off. How was the attendance at the casting classes?

Response:

Ah, Mike me boyo,     Wunderbar, ausgezeichnet, horosho, uitstekend, formidable, kimagaslo’, dat war plum prutty!     Told my wife to read it because that poem can even make being a gear whore sound like a good thing.                             Frank Reid

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Our resident Orvis junkie went to his favourite shop, and once started buying equipment, he could no longer stop, he asked the salesman nicely, "How does one catch hogs?", and the salesman rubbed his hands and said "one burns Orvis logs", "The fish are very clever nowadays, or at least so it is said, but even your dog can catch some, if it has an Orvis bed. Some wives improve their chances from middling to fair, if they go into an Orvis store, and buy an Orvis chair". "From beginners up to experts, from schoolboys up to gramps, any genuine fishermen, knows the worth of Orvis lamps", in fact our stuff is so damn good you can catch fish from a tar-pit, as long as you are the proud owner, of a genuine Orvis carpet". "But if you really truly wish to ensure the fishes imminent doom, come along with me for a while, I

Question:

I have a friend who’s been breaking my balls about how he’s been hooking up consistently with winter largemouths.(He’s a spin fisherman)The winters haven’t been very cold in the northeast lately so many lakes and ponds have yet to freeze over.I’ve tried a few different things with my flytackle but I haven’t been able to hook up.I did get a bass once two years ago,while fishing for hatcheries,using a large dry with a hares ear dropper size 12.If anyone out there is having sucess in this area I’d appreciate the info.I want to shove a nice size bass right in that smug bastards face.

Response:

Even if the water hasn’t frozen, you need to go deep and slow for these northern winter largemouths. Not really what you would call typical fly-fishing.  You might want to try a slow sinking line.  It would take forever to get your fly down into the strike zone but unlike a fast sink line you’ll be able to fish slowly and still keep the fly in the fish zone once it gets down there. A Carolina rigged plastic worm or salamander would be my recommendation. Mu

Response:

I am in the south fishing in temps of the 40’s.Tp our bass thats the same as hanging out wit Ms. Pauls. I go to a pattern I tie called a Crystal Puff. It is White long cactus chanille head with X lg bead chain eyes, with a tail of whit bucktail and crystal flash with wide white hackle feathers (3 together on each side) or my favorite silver badger feathers. All of this on a mustad 2/0 – 3/0 hook #7766 Fish it slow with quick darts. On days that the temp does rise look for flats and shoals with dark bottoms with EZ access to deep drop offs. They will come up to warm up there. Good luck. It has been working for me.

Response:

Question:

Yes and no. ) Frank (it ain’t me in Elkhart) Church – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The good Senator and I were not related and didn’t share the same politics either. Of course that’s JUST what we could expect you to say under the circumstances! Got any ID bub?  Would you agree to a DNA analysis?    

Response:

This post was posted to a UK fishing group.  I thought it might interest some of you.  I am sure the original posters will not mind me copying it, as I have corresponded with them both in the past. TL MC I realize this is a bit off-topic, but my daughter saw this and asked me to ask ‘the nice British fisherman’ about it. The Canadian News has picked up a story about a journalist who was literally branded by the "ALF" (Animal Liberation Front?) . Is this true? Are these the same nutters who attack fisherman and throw bricks at their floats, smash their rods, etc? If they are, it’s very chilling. It’s one thing to disagree. Another to actually take hot iron to a man’s back for disagreeing.

Peter, Sadly it’s true The journalist in question had written, exposing some of the more extremist members of the ALF.  He was kidnapped and held in fear of his life.  Hooded with a hesian sack, he expected execution.  When he felt the pain, and smelled the burning flesh, he realised he had been branded.  A.L.-F across his back in very large letters.  I guess that the perpetuators felt that this was only a small payback for the pain and suffering caused daily to animals in laboratories etc.  Sick, sick, sick and twisted people The extremists in the Animals Rights and Anti-angling circles tend to be the same small group of people, surrounded both by harmless nutters and well-meaning (we would think misguided) people.

Response:

Anbody wishing to see the original article: Click on the following link and then ‘Britain’: http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/Times/frontpage.html?999 The article is about a quarter of the way down the page. TL MC

Response:

This post was posted to a UK fishing group.  I thought it might interest some of you.  I am sure the original posters will not mind me copying it, as I have corresponded with them both in the past. TL MC

ALF is a terrorist group, no debate about it.  I find if utterly shocking that these people seem to think that animals are equal or more important than humans.  I can’t imagine where these people get their convictions, but they can’t possibly be healthy, IMO. — Levi Always do sober what you said you’d do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut. –Ernest Hemingway

Response:

ALF is a terrorist group, no debate about it.  I find if utterly shocking that these people seem to think that animals are equal or more important than humans.  I can’t imagine where these people get their convictions, but they can’t possibly be healthy, IMO.

You don’t suppose that they take into account man’s inhumanity to man on this planet and have decided animals act better towards each other?  You know the old saying, "The more I know about people the more I love my cat/dog/sheep/etc etc."  That same feeling creeps up on me more and more often these days. Frank (stirring the pot in Elkhart) Church

Response:

You don’t suppose that they take into account man’s inhumanity to man on this planet and have decided animals act better towards each other?  You know the old saying, "The more I know about people the more I love my cat/dog/sheep/etc etc."  That same feeling creeps up on me more and more often these days. Frank (stirring the pot in Elkhart) Church

Your ommission of Louie LaPlac’s goat, affectionately known as Mildred, will be noted as the insult it is. Mark Faulkner

Response:

Louie, please relay my apologies to Mildred as I would never intentionally insult someone who is obviously adored by you.  Sorry. (think that’ll do it Mark?) Frank (goatbreath) Church – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You don’t suppose that they take into account man’s inhumanity to man on this planet and have decided animals act better towards each other?  You know the old saying, "The more I know about people the more I love my cat/dog/sheep/etc etc."  That same feeling creeps up on me more and more often these days. Frank (stirring the pot in Elkhart) Church Your ommission of Louie LaPlac’s goat, affectionately known as Mildred, will be noted as the insult it is. Mark Faulkner

Response:

Don’t some animals eat their young?  I am also waiting for some Animal Rights Activist to show me a hospital built by animals. Weren’t you a Senator from Idaho before you died? DP – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ALF is a terrorist group, no debate about it.  I find if utterly shocking that these people seem to think that animals are equal or more important than humans.  I can’t imagine where these people get their convictions, but they can’t possibly be healthy, IMO. You don’t suppose that they take into account man’s inhumanity to man on this planet and have decided animals act better towards each other?  You know the old saying, "The more I know about people the more I love my cat/dog/sheep/etc etc."  That same feeling creeps up on me more and more often these days. Frank (stirring the pot in Elkhart) Church

Response:

You don’t suppose that they take into account man’s inhumanity to man on this planet and have decided animals act better towards each other?  You know the old saying, "The more I know about people the more I love my cat/dog/sheep/etc etc. That same feeling creeps up on me more and more often these days.

I guess the fact that many animals routinely kill and eat other animals for sustenance, (sometimes including the young of their own species), doesn’t enter into the equation. George "turning up the fire a notch" Adams

Response:

Don’t some animals eat their young?

Yes, some animals do eat their young, sows can lay on their piglets and suffocate most or all of them, a tomcat will kill every kitten in the litter if he can whup mama cat first, and on and on, but that’s nature’s way, in no way can it be equated with with mans actions.  Screw PETA, ALF and all the rest of these wackos. Weren’t you a Senator from Idaho before you died?

I see you remember Senator Frank Church of Idaho.  Evidently he wasn’t too popular in some quarters in Idaho.  One time I stopped for gas in a small town there, gave the guy my credit card, whereupon after seeing the name on the card, gave me a squinty-eyed look and asked, "are you related to Senator Frank Church?"  I’m not, and said so, but might have denied it in any case as he looked ready to dump sugar in my gas tank or some other dastardly deed.  The good Senator and I were not related and didn’t share the same politics either.

Response:

Absolutely not George, as I stated in an earlier post, equating the animal kingdom which operates on inborn instinct to do what is necessary to survive, to "man" is bogus.  Ascribing human traits to animals is a mistake. So if a tomcat kills the litter of kittens he finds, we are horrified.  But he does that for a reason…..he is "offing" future competition for breeding the available female cats.  But if humans do that, it is mass murder.  The two don’t equate at any level.  My favorite pussy cat, who purrs on my lap and nuzzles me, and makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, will sneak out in the yard and try to kill a bird….she is living in two worlds, ours and hers. If I catch her eating a bird do I beat the shit out of her…no way.  I recognize she still has that hunter instinct of her breed.  We, on the other hand, are supposed to be "civilized," whatever the hell that means in this day and age. Frank (trying to piss on George’s fire) Church

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You don’t suppose that they take into account man’s inhumanity to man on this planet and have decided animals act better towards each other?  You know the old saying, "The more I know about people the more I love my cat/dog/sheep/etc etc. That same feeling creeps up on me more and more often these days. I guess the fact that many animals routinely kill and eat other animals for sustenance, (sometimes including the young of their own species), doesn’t enter into the equation. George "turning up the fire a notch" Adams

Response:

Ascribing human traits to animals is a mistake.

Frank, I guess I misunderstood your your post, because I thought that was exactly what you were doing. (i.e. "good" animals vs. "bad" humans) Animals are niether good nor bad…..they are just animals. A rattlesnake can kill you, and a dog can be your faithful companion for many years, but is the dog "better" than the rattlesnake? I don’t think so….they are what they are. Humans are subject to many failings, and because we have free will we can be held accountable for our actions, and judged by our peers to be good or bad. As more people populate the earth, we will see more of the bad, especially since the media will show it to us at every opportunity.  On the whole, are animals "better" than humans? I say no. George Adams

Response:

I see you remember Senator Frank Church of Idaho.  Evidently he wasn’t too popular in some quarters in Idaho.  One time I stopped for gas in a small town there, gave the guy my credit card, whereupon after seeing the name on the card, gave me a squinty-eyed look and asked, "are you related to Senator Frank Church?"  I’m not, and said so, but might have denied it in any case as he looked ready to dump sugar in my gas tank or some other dastardly deed.  The good Senator and I were not related and didn’t share the same politics either.

Sen. Frank Church was one of the all-time great national figures. He did more for conservation anyone else in politics I can think of, with the possible exception of Teddy Rooseveldt. The Frank Church Wilderness in Idaho is named after him. It’s spectacular, enclosing the finest wilderness river in the lower 48 — the Middle Fork of the Salmon. I’m just sickened by the cast of disreputable characters that have taken over Idaho politics at the national level. I miss you, Frank, and I miss Sen.Chafee of Rhode Island, a Republican who wasn’t afraid to stand up for the public interest. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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You’re right of course, and Sen. Church should have been recognized with having a wilderness area named in his honor, at the least.  I didn’t mean to denigrate him, and hope you didn’t take it that way.  

Of course I didn’t, Frank. I’m sorry to have implied that. The FCWA is some spectacular country that I’d love to see up close and personal, like say, astride a horse on a pack-in flyfishing trip.

What you have to do is to take a week-long raft trip down the Middle Fork. There are other ways to see this country, but a raft (or drift boat) trip is the best. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I see you remember Senator Frank Church of Idaho.  Evidently he wasn’t too popular in some quarters in Idaho.  One time I stopped for gas in a small town there, gave the guy my credit card, whereupon after seeing the name on the card, gave me a squinty-eyed look and asked, "are you related to Senator Frank Church?"  I’m not, and said so, but might have denied it in any case as he looked ready to dump sugar in my gas tank or some other dastardly deed.  The good Senator and I were not related and didn’t share the same politics either. Sen. Frank Church was one of the all-time great national figures. He did more for conservation anyone else in politics I can think of, with the possible exception of Teddy Rooseveldt. The Frank Church Wilderness in Idaho is named after him. It’s spectacular, enclosing the finest wilderness river in the lower 48 — the Middle Fork of the Salmon. I’m just sickened by the cast of disreputable characters that have taken over Idaho politics at the national level. I miss you, Frank, and I miss Sen.Chafee of Rhode Island, a Republican who wasn’t afraid to stand up for the public interest. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

They named the north loop in Dallas the LBJ Freeway in honor of LBJ because they stole all of the land.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sen. Frank Church was one of the all-time great national figures. He did more for conservation anyone else in politics I can think of, with the possible exception of Teddy Rooseveldt. The Frank Church Wilderness in Idaho is named after him. It’s spectacular, enclosing the finest wilderness river in the lower 48 — the Middle Fork of the Salmon. I’m just sickened by the cast of disreputable characters that have taken over Idaho politics at the national level. I miss you, Frank, and I miss Sen.Chafee of Rhode Island, a Republican who wasn’t afraid to stand up for the public interest.

You’re right of course, and Sen. Church should have been recognized with having a wilderness area named in his honor, at the least.  I didn’t mean to denigrate him, and hope you didn’t take it that way.  The FCWA is some spectacular country that I’d love to see up close and personal, like say, astride a horse on a pack-in flyfishing trip. That will probably never happen but at least it’s nice to know it’s there, and waiting. Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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They named the north loop in Dallas the LBJ Freeway in honor of LBJ because they stole all of the land.

        in view of the fact that "land stealing" is a well known core component of successful capitalism, i should think that lbj would occupy a prime space in your pantheon of heroes, david.         not that i, too, am *not* a capitalist; it just seems that if one is labeled a "democrat" (whatever that is), you refuse to believe that he can also be a capitalist.  i think you will have to admit that materialism is no respecter of political labels. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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   in view of the fact that "land stealing" is a well known core component of successful capitalism, i should think that lbj would occupy a prime space in your pantheon of heroes, david.

Not to mention the fact that LBJ was a *serious* poon hound<g. — Charlie…

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LBJ because they stole all of the land. My parents house was just a couple of miles north of where they built the LBJ Freeway and in our house it was always refered to as the SOB Freeway. Big Dale

But there was no one better at getting out the cementary vote than LBJ. Whether you were a republican or democrat…if you were dead…you always casted your vote for Lyndon. obroff (this one should be fun): How many believe that LBJ had a hand in the Dallas assassination of JFK? Waldo — Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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LBJ because they stole all of the land.

My parents house was just a couple of miles north of where they built the LBJ Freeway and in our house it was always refered to as the SOB Freeway. Big Dale

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obroff (this one should be fun): How many believe that LBJ had a hand in the Dallas assassination of JFK? Waldo

Just a note Waldo, the MOSAD ran a full scale scenario of the Dallas shooting with their best marksmen and could not duplicate the event. Their official report said that Oswald didn’t do it.  The KGB didn’t do it and the Kremlin believed Kennedy to be the one man in Washington they could trust to some degree.  I wonder if they have the same faith in Clinton? Remember the quote from the Navigator in Dune?  "…plots within plots, within plots…" — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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Remember the quote from the Navigator in Dune?  "…plots within plots, within plots…"

Wayne, for an old feller you sure seem rather adept with pop culture references. Mu

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In article <Pine.SOL.4.10.9911101035150.17986- Wayne, for an old feller you sure seem rather adept with pop culture references. Mu

Mu, I’ve never been too bashful to steal the good stuff from anybody’s culture!! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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The good Senator and I were not related and didn’t share the same politics either.

Of course that’s JUST what we could expect you to say under the circumstances! Got any ID bub?  Would you agree to a DNA analysis?    

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How many believe that LBJ had a hand in the Dallas assassination of JFK?

Dallas assassinated an airport?  Huh?  Where was I in ‘63?

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Question:

Just one other point, a very wise man once said to me when I asked him if something was a good idea " If you have to think very long and very hard about it, and are still not sure, don’t do it".

Excellent point. Right now I’m leaning to getting the horses. It all depends on how my stock options pan out. Money can turn what otherwise would be a terrible idea into an excellent idea.

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<equine opine snipped PS-Stay away from llamas, they are for grass maggot (sheep) herders and a major pain (attitudes).

Spoken like a true Montanan. Welcome, Warren. — Ken Fortenberry

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Vaccinations twice a year are a good idea, and if you have the money (it sounds like you do), vet checks are a good idea. Have the vets come out and worm/vaccinate twice a year, and they’ll spot something early that you might not, especially as a beginner.

And DON’T forget to get a vet check BEFORE you buy a horse.  It can save you a ton of money in the long run.   Vaccinations are a good idea, but not necessary unless the horses are going to come into contact with tons of other horses.  I guess the main reason we don’t is that we have too many and it is easier to treat on an as needed basis. However, for two, better to be safe than sorry is a good philosophy.  It really isn’t that expensive to do it yourself. The key is keeping the vet away unless necessary.  So the more you learn and are able to do, the less reliance you will have on a vet to come out and give shots/worm. Worming is easy, just a tube that shoots out measured amounts of a paste based upon the body weight (you actually set the tube with the weight and it premeasures sort of).  Just have to make sure to get it way back in the mouth so they don’t spit it out. Most stuff is fairly easy and you will pick it up as you go.  It kind of helps you bond with the animal and the animal with you.  I can’t put into words how important the relationship is between a horse and a rider, but it involves lots of trust and patience.  It will eventually turn into a bond that will hopefully last a lifetime. I would also suggest that maybe you start taking riding lessons before you buy horses.  The instructor will be able to teach you many things about horse care and horsemanship that will be invaluable down the road. Warren

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I’m partial to llamas in the backcountry. They can carry 100-120 lbs of gear (but not you), their padded feet are easier on the trails than a horse’s hoofs and they browse and eat their own food instead of grazing on scarce mountain grasses.

Llamas are out of the question. For one thing I need an animal to carry ME for one or two days, not 120 lbs of gear. For another thing, I’d be laughed out of Custer County.

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I’m not, nor will I ever be, an equestrian. But I’ve known enough of them that I’m familiar with some of the potential pitfalls of horse ownership. The best way to sum it up is to say that on a cost/hour basis, horses don’t make much economic sense for the casual fisherman. I realize that boarding costs are highly variable, presumably driven by geography and relative cost of living, but the prospect of shelling out thousands of dollars annually for a couple months’ usage would certainly be a sobering prospect indeed for many of us. Another point to consider: ATV’s are replacing working horses on some ranches (for some jobs). I bet it’s because they’re ‘cheaper to keep’. Good luck.

ATVs aren’t allowed most places I want to go. They don’t even allow mountain bikes. Also, I’m not looking at this as a purely economic deal. I like horses and I like riding them. I’m mainly concerned about the learning curve because I’ve never kept them before.

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Get the horses.  As a matter of fact buy some of my inlaws horses.  I already crash tested one. Seriously, horses are great for hunting and fishing trips.  You won’t need to ship them out to CA for the winter either.  We have over 40 head and keep them outside all winter long up here in Montana. As to feeding. That depends on how much room you have there.  You might get by with grazing them off the pasture if it is big enough and then feeding them hay in the winter.  Hay isn’t all that expensive really.  A horse needs about 2% of its body weight of feed a day.  A 1200 lb horse comes out to a wopping 24 pounds of hay.  Don’t know what the hay prices down there are, but up here it is about $60/ton of good alfalfa. As far as routine medications, just wormer once a year.  Maybe twice a year to be safe.  Want to be even safer?  Worm them or have them wormed before you bring them home.  Shouldn’t have to see a vet at all.  With 40 head we have had the vet out twice this year.  Both horses got caught in a fence.  One while rolling on the ground and got collicky because it was in the fence for several hours overnight and twisted (bad for horses intestines).  The other we think was kicking at a dog and got its legged stuck in a coral panel.  That one was pretty nasty. Try to find a book on horse care and read it for yourself and decide how much hassle it will be for you. Cost wise they are not too bad.  The big pain is in the beginning.  You can find a younger (5-10 year old horse) that is well broke for around $1,500. Then saddles and the other tack, well that depends on new or used.  Make sure you actually sit in the saddle before you buy one.  Ideally you want to sit in it on the horse to get a good feel for it.  Usually can’t though so just make sure you butt isn’t too big (or small).  You won’t need a fancy roping saddle or anything so used you can probably pick one up for about $400-500.  Shop around!  Read the classifieds, check out feed stores (sometimes they have bullentin boards with horses and tack for sale). Being on the high side, look to spend about $6,000 for 2 horses and tack and another $600 or so a year on hay. There are several things you can to do in taking care of horses to make them less at risk for disease, injury, and sickness so arm yourself with knowledge and make the decision afterwards. Happy Trails and Tight Lines. Warren PS-Stay away from llamas, they are for grass maggot (sheep) herders and a major pain (attitudes).

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I’m not, nor will I ever be, an equestrian. But I’ve known enough of them that I’m familiar with some of the potential pitfalls of horse ownership. The best way to sum it up is to say that on a cost/hour basis, horses don’t make much economic sense for the casual fisherman. I realize that boarding costs are highly variable, presumably driven by geography and relative cost of living, but the prospect of shelling out thousands of dollars annually for a couple months’ usage would certainly be a sobering prospect indeed for many of us. Another point to consider: ATV’s are replacing working horses on some ranches (for some jobs). I bet it’s because they’re ‘cheaper to keep’. Good luck. Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The very best flyfishing in my area (central Idaho) is fairly inaccessible. There are excellent wilderness rivers and backcountry lakes that require some pretty heroic hiking to get to, if you’re not rafting. Once you get there, though, you have it all to yourself, aside from the odd backpacker or two. I’m thinking of getting a couple of horses. I have room for a nice paddock next to my cabin. It’s also a consideration that my older daughter adores horses, and I made the potentially serious mistake of mentioning this idea to her. It’s really, really tempting. The other day, while hiking out from a backcountry lake and sweating blood, a couple of horseback riders passed me going up the trail at a fast trot. They were like gods. It looked so wonderful. My problem is that I have virtually no experience keeping horses. Just a few pack trips. How difficult is it? I’m what you’d call an animal-oriented person. I’ve always had lots of dogs and cats and a multitude of other creatures, but no horses. I figure that at a minimum I’d have to build a fence for the paddock, buy all the gear (in addition to the horses), find a ferrier and a large-animal vet, get a two-horse trailer, and arrange for someone to take care of them for the short periods when I’m not around. Then there’s the question of what to do with them in the winter. I figure I could trailer them back to my home in northern California (Menlo Park) and board them at one of the many stables here. These stables mostly cater to Woodside billionaires, but what the heck. It can’t be that expensive for a few months. Is this a stupid idea? Will I regret it?

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The very best flyfishing in my area (central Idaho) is fairly inaccessible. There are excellent wilderness rivers and backcountry lakes that require some pretty heroic hiking to get to, if you’re not rafting. Once you get there, though, you have it all to yourself, aside from the odd backpacker or two. I’m thinking of getting a couple of horses.

I’m partial to llamas in the backcountry. They can carry 100-120 lbs of gear (but not you), their padded feet are easier on the trails than a horse’s hoofs and they browse and eat their own food instead of grazing on scarce mountain grasses. — Ken Fortenberry

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Sounds like a great idea to me. If you have the time and possibilities, and can afford it, do it, but check the prices at those stables etc first, you may be very unpleasantly surprised, also horses involve a lot of care and work, far more than one imagines. Trailering them is also a pain, for you and for the horses. Mountain bikes can be thrown in the cabin or garage when you are done with them, don’t eat, don’t crap, and don’t get ill apart from an occasional broken chain etc. They cost much less than horses, they are less likely to get stolen, or run away, they are not edible to any great degree, and can not be turned into sausage meat, they do not wear extremely costly handmade steel shoes which require frequent replacement,  do not require horrendously expensive injections and medications at regular intervals, and they also require no looking after when you are absent. They do not engender quite as much enthusiasm on the part of dutiful daughters ( dutiful at least until the first ton of horse manure has to be shovelled out of somewhere ! ) I know a couple of the aforementioned daughters ! Their parents own quite a few horses. Quite amazing how often they have "urgent appointments" when the novelty has worn off, and the animals have to be groomed or cleaned out etc etc. If your daughter wants to ride, rent a horse for her for a while until you are certain she will keep it up and it is worth it. I know all this because I help out ( which usually means I shovel horse shit ! ) for the chance of an occasional ride on one of my friends horses. Not trying to dissuade you in any way, just playing advocatus diaboli. Just one other point, a very wise man once said to me when I asked him if something was a good idea " If you have to think very long and very hard about it, and are still not sure, don’t do it". TL MC

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The very best flyfishing in my area (central Idaho) is fairly inaccessible. There are excellent wilderness rivers and backcountry lakes that require some pretty heroic hiking to get to, if you’re not rafting. Once you get there, though, you have it all to yourself, aside from the odd backpacker or two. I’m thinking of getting a couple of horses. I have room for a nice paddock next to my cabin. It’s also a consideration that my older daughter adores horses, and I made the potentially serious mistake of mentioning this idea to her. It’s really, really tempting. The other day, while hiking out from a backcountry lake and sweating blood, a couple of horseback riders passed me going up the trail at a fast trot. They were like gods. It looked so wonderful. My problem is that I have virtually no experience keeping horses. Just a few pack trips. How difficult is it? I’m what you’d call an animal-oriented person. I’ve always had lots of dogs and cats and a multitude of other creatures, but no horses. I figure that at a minimum I’d have to build a fence for the paddock, buy all the gear (in addition to the horses), find a ferrier and a large-animal vet, get a two-horse trailer, and arrange for someone to take care of them for the short periods when I’m not around. Then there’s the question of what to do with them in the winter. I figure I could trailer them back to my home in northern California (Menlo Park) and board them at one of the many stables here. These stables mostly cater to Woodside billionaires, but what the heck. It can’t be that expensive for a few months. Is this a stupid idea? Will I regret it?

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Question:

The Irish National Tourist Board (in New York City–and I assume in their Australian offices as well) has some excellent–and free–materials regarding regulations, accommodations, fishing opportunities, etc., which are no substitute for what Tord Andreasson listed, but they are a worthwhile supplement. I am going to Ireland in September –anyone got any information re fly fishing in Ireland. Robin Widdowson Victoria Australia

Marv Slind Voice Phone:  Office:  (509) 335-7099   Fax:  (509) 335-4171        Home:  (208) 882-2426  Fax:  (208) 882-2118 Homepage URL:  http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~slind/

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I am going to Ireland in September –anyone got any information re fly fishing in Ireland. Robin Widdowson Victoria Australia

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I am going to Ireland in September –anyone got any information re fly fishing in Ireland. Robin Widdowson Victoria Australia

Robin, Here follows a reprint of articles I read some time ago. Hope this helps, Tord Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Hi William, I am interested in any publications on ffishing in Ireland in order to prepare for a trip in several years.

This is a fairly easy one thankfully, just get the following two books:- "Trout and Salmon Loughs of Ireland" and "Trout and Salmon Rivers of Ireland" They are both written by Peter O’Reilly, the ISBN on the Loughs one is 0-00-218415-X These are very good books for the local and visiting angler and well worth a read, they cover all types of water in all areas of the country and have useful lists of contacts and the like. Needless to say they can’t cover every bit of water in the country but they cover a wide variaty of waters in each area, complete with maps. Regards, Philip Blair. *** Nation Shall Peak Six Unto Nation. *** Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly I am interested in any publications on ffishing in Ireland in order to prepare for a trip in several years.

Don’t miss C.C. O’Malley’s With a Fishing Rod In Ireland (Vantage Press, 1975.)  (This is the only "vanity press" publication I’ve ever seen that was worth 10 times the cover price.) — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Question:

Heading up to Mammoth in a couple of days (my wife has to go up there for a meeting, poor me getting dragged along ). I’m going to fish Hot Creek for the first time, but I’ve got lots of additional time to fill. I’m kinda looking for something other than the usual Mammoth Lakes, and I’m looking for any suggestions on a couple of lakes. Specifically, I’m thinking of taking my float tube in to McLeod Lake, which I’ve only read about. Any one fished it recently?  I’ve also read about Sotcher Lake down in the Devils Postpile area, which I’ve heard fishes pretty good in the morning. There’s another lake off the road down there, but I can’t remember the name. Lastly, I’ve got to make at least one trip up to Lee Vining, and thought about fishing Lundy. Has anyone ever floated it. Any pre-trip suggestions would be helpful. I’ll post a report when I get back. Also, there was a guy named Mark Heskett who wrote a little book on fishing the Mammoth area. I corresponded with him a few times on the Internet a couple of years ago, but haven’t seen him turning up here. Does anyone know if he’s still around. Roger

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<<*SNIP*  I’ve also read about Sotcher Lake down in the Devils Postpile area, which I’ve heard fishes pretty good in the morning. There’s another lake off the road down there, but I can’t remember the name.  *SNIP* Hi Roger, If you are planning on driving down by Devil’s Postpile, be sure to drive in before 7 am.  They close the road and run a shuttle after that and you don’t want to try to take your tube on the shuttle.  By the way the shuttle only goes to Devil’s Postpile and no farther. Give The Trout Fly in Mammoth lakes a call at (619) 934-2517 and they can give you somemore info.                                      Good Fishing,                                                Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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0] : Heading up to Mammoth in a couple of days (my wife has to go up there : for a meeting, poor me getting dragged along ). : I’m going to fish Hot Creek for the first time, but I’ve got lots of : additional time to fill. I’m kinda looking for something other than the : usual Mammoth Lakes, and I’m looking for any suggestions on a couple of : lakes. : Specifically, I’m thinking of taking my float tube in to McLeod Lake, : which I’ve only read about. Any one fished it recently?  I’ve also read : about Sotcher Lake down in the Devils Postpile area, which I’ve heard : fishes pretty good in the morning. There’s another lake off the road : down there, but I can’t remember the name. Lastly, I’ve got to make at : least one trip up to Lee Vining, and thought about fishing Lundy. Has : anyone ever floated it. : Any pre-trip suggestions would be helpful. I’ll post a report when I get : back. : Also, there was a guy named Mark Heskett who wrote a little book on : fishing the Mammoth area. I corresponded with him a few times on the : Internet a couple of years ago, but haven’t seen him turning up here. : Does anyone know if he’s still around. : Roger If you are going to fish Hot Creek, I would also suggest taking a look at the wild trout section of the upper Owens–up from Benton Crossing. It’s only a couple of miles from Hot Creek and there’s lots more of it and lots less angler pressure. It’s just this year got new fencing to keep the cows out– people access no problem–lots of walk-through gates. Good luck! Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (415)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971

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Heading up to Mammoth in a couple of days (my wife has to go up there for a meeting, poor me getting dragged along ). Specifically, I’m thinking of taking my float tube in to McLeod Lake, which I’ve only read about. Any one fished it recently?  I’ve also read about Sotcher Lake down in the Devils Postpile area, which I’ve heard fishes pretty good in the morning. There’s another lake off the road down there, but I can’t remember the name. Lastly, I’ve got to make at least one trip up to Lee Vining, and thought about fishing Lundy. Has anyone ever floated it. Any pre-trip suggestions would be helpful. I’ll post a report when I get back. Roger

Hi Roger, I don

Question:

Looking for info on fishing Yosemite rivers. Planning a Spring ‘96 trip with the family.   Thanks, Russ.

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If you’re backpacking, try out the Tuolumne below Glen Aulin, anywhere along it down to Hetch Hetchy. It’s a serious hike, be prepared.  You can walk in to the falls at Glen Aulin, and fishing the pool at the bottom is fun. You can backpack into some great lakes, like Benson or Smedberg.  While fishing in the back country can be good, fishing off the trail (even a mile) can be terrific.  It’s the crowds, man, you got to get away from the hordes of people who descend upon Yosemite.

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