Question:

In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father.

On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. That strikes me as a theology tailor made for fishermen. Catholic and Lutheran fishermen think faith will see them through the day. Calvinist fishermen know they have to work at it. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father. On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. That strikes me as a theology tailor made for fishermen. Catholic and Lutheran fishermen think faith will see them through the day. Calvinist fishermen know they have to work at it.

What about the Hobbesian fishermen?  Now, wait, before anyone pooh-poohs this out of hand, hear me out…"This one’s tricky. You have to use imaginary numbers, like eleventeen…" <  G R "…If something is so complicated that you can’t explain it in 10 seconds, then it’s probably not worth knowing anyway…"

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says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father. On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. That strikes me as a theology tailor made for fishermen. Catholic and Lutheran fishermen think faith will see them through the day. Calvinist fishermen know they have to work at it.

I don’t really want to go here, BUT, you have it exactly opposite. Catholics, in particular, REQUIRE you to actively participate in sacraments in order to obtain "grace".  I’m not sure about Lutherans. See: http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/beck_5pt.htm specifically points 2 and 4. Rob

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I don’t really want to go here, BUT, you have it exactly opposite.

Doesn’t matter. It’s all baloney. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith.

Actually, the deeds are supposed to be one of the manifestations of faith. A high "value" is placed on deeds in Calvinist doctrine but deeds are not required for the attainment of salvation.  The part that rankles about the quote is that grace refers to a gift that is freely given.  Not something that can come by art, whatever art is. Mu

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On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith.

As I understand it, Calvin taught that one’s eternal fate was determined BEFORE his birth.  The "Elect" had been chosen by God to spend eternity with Him in heaven.  The rest would perish. No one could change is fate in any way. vince norris

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Rob, It is Grace alone for Lutherans. Crusty

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father. On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. That strikes me as a theology tailor made for fishermen. Catholic and Lutheran fishermen think faith will see them through the day. Calvinist fishermen know they have to work at it. I don’t really want to go here, BUT, you have it exactly opposite. Catholics, in particular, REQUIRE you to actively participate in sacraments in order to obtain "grace".  I’m not sure about Lutherans. See: http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/beck_5pt.htm specifically points 2 and 4. Rob

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In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father.

Before I read farther about the father, what do you think the quote should have been? This, I find interesting Mu.  What is ‘the why of it?’ George Gehrke

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father. On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. That strikes me as a theology tailor made for fishermen. Catholic and Lutheran fishermen think faith will see them through the day. Calvinist fishermen know they have to work at it.

—  Hum? gg

Response:

On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. Actually, the deeds are supposed to be one of the manifestations of faith. A high "value" is placed on deeds in Calvinist doctrine but deeds are not required for the attainment of salvation.  The part that rankles about the quote is that grace refers to a gift that is freely given.  Not something that can come by art, whatever art is. Mu

Now I have a handle on what rankles you Mu. The Metronome, casting to a three count beat is where the beginning of his thoughts are rooted from.  The explaination is simple if one has the insight to the father who the two son’s learned much from. Practice, makes perfect. George Gehrke "and for me, this explains fly fishing rather well" Three words, the same as the ticking Metronome. And for the record, I include Grace, for study and review. grace (gr

Question:

I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.   I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Response:

I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.   I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

        why not just post all their pictures, with names, family member’s names, and school lunch schedule.  that ought to make *somebody* happy…. wayno

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.  I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott      why not just post all their pictures, with names, family member’s names, and school lunch schedule.  that ought to make *somebody* happy…. wayno

It’s a good thing my new Cabela’s clearance moleskin shirt sheds nasally- ejected coffee like water off a duck’s ass, or I would be really pissed right now   Scott

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A group outing makes the most sense.  Contact your local Scout office and volunteer.  Definitely, if there’s a Scout camp nearby that would be an ideal opportunity because they are heavy on merit badges during camp.  On the off chance that they already offer the program at camp, remember that not all the boys can make it to camp, so it would be an excellent gesture to offer a separate program. You can get some good info here: http://www.bsaflyfishing.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A group outing makes the most sense.  Contact your local Scout office and volunteer.  Definitely, if there’s a Scout camp nearby that would be an ideal opportunity because they are heavy on merit badges during camp.  On the off chance that they already offer the program at camp, remember that not all the boys can make it to camp, so it would be an excellent gesture to offer a separate program. You can get some good info here: http://www.bsaflyfishing.com/ I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Thanks, Stan.  I’ll let you know what we come up with. Scott

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I served my term as assistant scoutmaster and have helped do this before there was a flyfishing badge.  It was just a fishing badge at the time and three of us did it for the scouts in our sons troop and one other. Call the local counsel (there on the web) and get a list of the troops near you.  They will have the names and phone numbers of the troop Scoutmasters.  Call the troop leaders and tell them what you are willing to do.  They will be all over you.  They are always looking for and welcome help. The scouts have booklets that detail the steps for earning every merit badge.  The emphasis is to have the scouts do all the work; your role is to be teacher and advisor. You can run the program for the whole troop or for just a couple of boys, depends on how many are interested. It’s the boys who decide if they want to get the badge. If your names on the list as an advisor some boys will seek you out. Some of the things we did were:  1.) Gave hands on demos on fly tying at one of their regular meetings.  We started using a parachute cord and an 8/0 hook and then let them go with the six vices and various materials we brought. They all managed to tie a couple of flies.  2.) Depending on where they meet you can bring in some rods and give casting instructions. 3.) You can let them come to your house and work at your bench and tie a few flies. .  You have to have at least two boys there at a time, no one on one instruction is allowe.  Let them see you stuff, explain how it works and maybe cast some in your back yard.  This is the point where some of them become lifetime flyfishers.  4.) You take them on an outing.  This part may educate you as much as them.  Pick a spot that safe and has catchable fish.  I wouldn’t count on a lake at a Boy Scout Camp having any cacheable fish. This is where you will need more help.  Get more volunteers for the trip one on one instruction is a big help here.    Twenty wild kids on a river with fly rods, wading, throwing rocks, and just being boys. It’s a great experience.  I cannot recommend it enough. .     – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.   I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

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The scouts have booklets that detail the steps for earning every merit badge.

Apparently it will cost $15,000 to print up all the booklets and the scouts are currently seeking donations to defray that cost. Mu

Response:

I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something.

There’s one on the White river in central WI.  Great hex hatch too.  Don’t know about a dozen or so scouts flailing the water in the dark though. Wolfgang

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Don’t know about a dozen or so scouts flailing the water in the dark though.

A noble quest, but I don’t think I’d wanna be the responsible party that hands them a fish hook or anything else that could potentially put me on the defendent end of a PI suit when somebody sticks a hook in his eye.   Maybe a dozen pairs of cheap safety glasses would be a good investment. Call me paranoid, Joe F.

Response:

A noble quest, but I don’t think I’d wanna be the responsible party that hands them a fish hook or anything else that could potentially put me on the defendent end of a PI suit when somebody sticks a hook in his eye.   Maybe a dozen pairs of cheap safety glasses would be a good investment. Call me paranoid, Joe F.

Both TU and the Scouts have mechanisms to deal with insurance issues.   Safetly glasses should be mandatory.  I won’t cast without them.  I also walk around with a whistle in my vest, but I’m paranoid. Scott

Response:

Wiscoy Creek runs right through Camp Sam Wood right near Pike, NY.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Response:

Both TU and the Scouts have mechanisms to deal with insurance issues. Safetly glasses should be mandatory.  I won’t cast without them.  I also walk around with a whistle in my vest, but I’m paranoid.

It’s been my limited experience that should anything unfortunate happen, TU, BSA, the rodmaker, the hook manufacturer, and you personally will get named in a suit.   Sure, you’d probably get out of any liability, but it’ll still cost a few shiny nickles in legal fees.   Lawsuits are a bitch for the innocent.   Didn’t mean to get so serious about it, but being married to a (former) property/casualty insurance agent will do that to you.  :-) Joe F.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wiscoy Creek runs right through Camp Sam Wood right near Pike, NY. I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Thanks.  There’s also a pretty nice campground right on the Eastkoy that might be suitable.  Not many tent spots, though.  Seems taken up by permanent RVs Scott

Response:

I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.   I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

well, I don’t know about good water compared to other areas, but in NJ there’s the Big Flat Brook that goes through Stokes State Forest which has an adjacent Boy Scout Camp. The BFB is known for decent trout FFing. Rob

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Question:

A Tina?  Man you been on that Dixie strip to long.  TIM

Response:

I am looking for information on the flyfishing group thats located in the Dayton,Oh. area as to when and where they meet.  Thanks for any info.  Tim Brady

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TBrady4691 wrote… I am looking for information on the flyfishing group thats located in the Dayton,Oh. area as to when and where they meet.  Thanks for any info.  Tim Brady

Try, http://www.tu.org/index.html http://www.fedflyfishers.org/sitemap.htm Good luck. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

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anyhow,these fellows do the mad river http://tumadmen.home.att.net/ these boys are in town too… http://www.activedayton.com/community/groups/mvff/ there’s a bass club on the Stillwater but I don’t know much about them. You can pick up some info and a newsletter on the MVFF down at Fisherman’s Quarters on Keowee Street. It’s a good place to meet for coffee……. john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TBrady4691 wrote… I am looking for information on the flyfishing group thats located in the Dayton,Oh. area as to when and where they meet.  Thanks for any info. Tim Brady Try, http://www.tu.org/index.html http://www.fedflyfishers.org/sitemap.htm Good luck. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

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http://www.activedayton.com/community/groups/mvff/ Here is the FFF Dayton (Miami Valley) Fly Fishing Club you’re interested in Mr. Brady.  You will find it to be very active and with great members. George Gehrke http://www.gink.com

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Thanks to  all for the info.  Tim

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rats…..was hopin you were a Tina……. john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks to  all for the info.  Tim

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Question:

  And now, back to your regularly scheduled programmming….. bite me Warren!

Go smoke a whitefish! — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

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fishing depends (at least in part) on thinking like a fish.  I’ve tried it. Makes my brain hurt.

My guess is that if we are thinking like a fish we would eat sticks and rocks. I keep finding them in the fish that I keep. Big Dale

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Excellent synopsis Peter.  These types of discussions were what first attracted me to and later hooked me on ROFF.  My thanks to you, Willi, et all for the thought provoking insights/explanations.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled programmming….. bite me Warren!

Response:

I am a fairly new fly fisher and an even newer tier. I have been fortunate enough to have a few experienced hands tell me that I am far more picky about my flies than the fish. Also, worry about developing the tying skills and your flies will look more like the store flies as you get better. In the mean time, it’s pretty darn cool to catch a fish on something that you made by hand. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even during hatches, not all the fish will be keyed into the same features on a fly. With some, wings may be important, others how high or low the fly floats, others size, others sparseness, other "action", others color, other orientation etc. etc.  Just like people, I think there are fish that look for certain "right" characteristics in a fly and are triggered by it, those that look for something wrong and if found will reject it, and those that just want something to eat. Individual fish have individual feeding habits and preferences. There is no magic fly. Being successful means finding a fly that appeals to the majority of fish and turns off few. Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish. Willi

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<snipped a whole bunch for the Grand Poohbah   Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending?

Willi, I can’t remember if you were there when this happened during the clave or not.  We were fishing and saw a fish swallow a bunch of moss and then spit it out.  Perhaps there was a morsel of food in that bunch of moss and the fish separated it and then spit the moss back out.  It could be that the fish sees the hook as debris to filter out from the food and takes the fly anyways.  Just a thought. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

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What a trout perceives is a problem amenable to experiment….and it’s been done.

Wolfgang, Like usual, I don’t know how to take what you say but did you mean the above? If so, I’d like to see it. Willi

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple. Not to be a wise-ass, but we do?  I mean, I think you’re right, but to pull a Wolfgang (which ain’t easy, lemme tell ya), how do we know? Granted, we can measure it as far as physical size, and do some experiments as far as electric charges, etc., but how can we (at this point, anyway) really know what a fish is "thinking" or perceiving? It ain’t SUPPOSED to be easy!  Nevertheless, here’s a little tip: never try to get away with making two (or three) points look like one.

Well, thanks, but, basically, I was calling you fat…. A trout’s brain IS small and relatively simple.  We could go into all kinds of tedious detail about comparative neuroanatomy (and the literature is voluminous) but it’s late and I need to get to bed.

And so is the literature that says there is, or isn’t, a God or Gods, that Communism is the best thing since, well, others say it wasn’t, and with the advent of the Web, probably quite a bit claiming Elvis, JFK, and Marilyn Monroe are having a nightly GB at Bill Gates’ house. What a trout perceives is a problem amenable to experiment….and it’s been done.

Granted, we…well, ok, "we" implies the wrong thing, so – someone can likely get general info, like, "shine light, fish swims away" and "fish tries to eat this, but not that," but I’m dubious we can truly know what fish "think," perceive, or whatever you call it, i.e., knowing the fish "thinks" a particular thing is or isn’t, and more importantly, why.  For example, I’d run away from a group of people having a Beastie Boys marathon, but not because I’m scared of the people, music, or the Beastie Boys, but I don’t like them, either.  On the other hand, I might sit and listen with a group of gangbangers who happened to like, oh, say, Bobby Short, Bob Wills, or certain Jane’s Addiction cuts.   One reason I’m sure "we" haven’t discovered such information (past a certain superficial level, anyway) is because especially with things like fish, which leads to fishing, is that it would get exploited before the ink was dry on the reports.  I hate to sound cynical, but I think if "we" could truly and accurately figure out what makes fish "tick," or what they "think" (again, accurately is key), companies would be on it like, well, fish on scientifically-developed foolproof (the key) lures.  Moreover, even when the ability to vocally express how a creature is feeling is there, even that isn’t a completely accurate measure…look at women, for example…. We are all familiar with the adage that suggests success in fishing depends (at least in part) on thinking like a fish.  I’ve tried it. Makes my brain hurt.

Yeah, and it’s always made me laugh…why the hell would I want to think like the thing I’m trying to outsmart and catch.  For example, if a lion thought like a Tommy, would another lion get confused and eat him, or even more odd, would he get confused and die of exhaustion trying to outrun himself?  Heck, maybe he’d just have a crisis of conscience and run off and become a vegan and try to convert the pride.  Soon, he’d be smoking clove cigarettes, getting arrested with Al Sharpton, and whining about Nike factories and under-sized limos. Next thing you know, he’d be hanging out with Paul McCartney, and Lord knows what else…well, actually, I think the Lord did know, which is why lions don’t flit about trying to think like Tommies…..they just catch ‘em and eat ‘em….. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Wolfgang

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As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple. Not to be a wise-ass, but we do?  I mean, I think you’re right, but to pull a Wolfgang (which ain’t easy, lemme tell ya), how do we know? Granted, we can measure it as far as physical size, and do some experiments as far as electric charges, etc., but how can we (at this point, anyway) really know what a fish is "thinking" or perceiving?

It ain’t SUPPOSED to be easy!  Nevertheless, here’s a little tip: never try to get away with making two (or three) points look like one. A trout’s brain IS small and relatively simple.  We could go into all kinds of tedious detail about comparative neuroanatomy (and the literature is voluminous) but it’s late and I need to get to bed. What a trout perceives is a problem amenable to experiment….and it’s been done. We are all familiar with the adage that suggests success in fishing depends (at least in part) on thinking like a fish.  I’ve tried it. Makes my brain hurt. Wolfgang

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <Big Snip I’ll take dogs as an example, I know them pretty well after working with them for many years. If we try and understand how they smell things based on how we smell things, we couldn’t even begin to understand the complexity, importance and usefulness of smells in their life. Their sense of smell, how they interpret smells, and how they can use them is as alien to our sense of smell as our "intellect" is to theirs. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous. Willi I told my wife about this post and tried to get her to conduct an experiment, but she wouldn’t do it. All I wanted her to do was let me get the video camera and shoot video of her sniffing our Basset Hound’s butt and then giving me her perceptions. Among "other" things, she said I’d been on this news group way too long. <g

Post of the week, great image!! Willi

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[snip] What does a trout see when our dry passes overhead? – a protruding hook that is below the surface and produces no dimpling or halos

This is one of things that convinced me that a trout’s perception of a fly is very different from ours. In looking at the photos of underwater views of a fly, the bend of the hook and the barb is VERY prevalent. To my eye it is probably the most prevalent thing. However, a trout will overlook this but at times demand an exact match in terms of size, shape, color, etc. Willi

Response:

First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.

   I believe this is often of major importance. When fishing with a dry fly, I often cast to spots I *know* hold fish, and I get no response because the fly is riding a little low in the water. After treating it with desiccant it will be riding on the very tips of the hackles; it just amazes me how this can trigger strikes from fish that weren’t the least bit interested in the same fly moments earlier.

Response:

First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.    I believe this is often of major importance. When fishing with a dry fly, I often cast to spots I *know* hold fish, and I get no response because the fly is riding a little low in the water. After treating it with desiccant it will be riding on the very tips of the hackles; it just amazes me how this can trigger strikes from fish that weren’t the least bit interested in the same fly moments earlier.

(I noticed you use this technique on a fish that short struck the other day on the Big T) And sometimes the opposite is true, the fish will take a partly submerged fly after rejecting the same fly floating high and dry. This happened to me yesterday. Willi

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This is one of things that convinced me that a trout’s perception of a fly is very different from ours. In looking at the photos of underwater views of a fly, the bend of the hook and the barb is VERY prevalent. To my eye it is probably the most prevalent thing. However, a trout will overlook this but at times demand an exact match in terms of size, shape, color, etc. Willi

I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play. A partially drowned fly may work if the fish is keyed on emerging or drowned insects. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is one of things that convinced me that a trout’s perception of a fly is very different from ours. In looking at the photos of underwater views of a fly, the bend of the hook and the barb is VERY prevalent. To my eye it is probably the most prevalent thing. However, a trout will overlook this but at times demand an exact match in terms of size, shape, color, etc. Willi I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play.

That’s how the photos of dry flies from underwater appear to us. I question that they are perceived in the same manner by a trout. Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending? The point I’m trying to make is that when we use our vision to try and explain how a trout or any other animal uses their vision, I think that alot of the assumptions made are going to be erroneous. This is especially true if, like in the case of trout vision, there are demonstrative physical differences in vision components between that animal and ourselves. Also, vision is more than how the eye perceives something, it is how the brain interprets the signals that it receives from the eye.   I’ll take dogs as an example, I know them pretty well after working with them for many years. If we try and understand how they smell things based on how we smell things, we couldn’t even begin to understand the complexity, importance and usefulness of smells in their life. Their sense of smell, how they interpret smells, and how they can use them is as alien to our sense of smell as our "intellect" is to theirs. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous. Willi

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I’ll take dogs as an example, ….. ….. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous.

True, but no more erroneous than if we *didn’t* use our sense of smell to try to understand theirs.  ;) I agree with everything you say about our sense of vision necessarily being different from a trout’s, but it’s really the closest thing we have to work with and base our guesses on.  Otherwise we’re reduced to throwing up our hands and relying on "conclusions" drawn from what are really small, highly variable samples (our own personal experiences).  AND we’d have less to BS about. JR

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play. That’s how the photos of dry flies from underwater appear to us. I question that they are perceived in the same manner by a trout. Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending?

[snip] As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple.  It can only process so many visual cues.  If we make this process overly complex, I think we make it more difficult than it need be.  I believe that a trout processes the visual cues that say "food" and ignores those that suggest otherwise (e.g. the hook.)  After all, a trout’s world is full of drifting debris.  It has to have a simple, yet quick way to differentiate between a small stick and a nymph, for example. If your fly has the necessary cues, the trout takes it, despite the big, ugly hook.  This differentiation process is probably learned through repetition – the more bugs of a certain type that pass by a trout, the more likely it will fixate on them and begin to feed.  It probably has to learn what is good to eat, every time a major hatch occurs – this explains why the early part of a hatch may not engender much of response. It may well perceive colour, light refraction, etc. differently than us, but there is only a few cues we need to get right.  This is one of the reasons why I don’t like to stray too much from the original materials in an old recipe.  Skues talks about how certain materials have a special quality in the water and appear more like the natural when presented in the trout’s world.  I think if you get the hackle and tail, size, and colour right, you’ll fool trout more often than not. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think that the most dominant visual feature is the light refracted through the dimpled surface film.  The fish first react to that and everything else is superfluous until it is an inch or so from the fly. At that point, colour, size, wing, etc. come into play. That’s how the photos of dry flies from underwater appear to us. I question that they are perceived in the same manner by a trout. Often times a fish will demand a perfect size match, or wing or color etc. but will ignore that hunk of metal sticking out of the fly’s butt. If a fish can discriminate between a size twenty and a size twenty two fly, they definitely have the acuity to see the hook bend. Do they ignore it if enough other characteristics of the fly are "correct" or do they "not see it" because of the way their little brains interpret what the signals their eyes are sending? [snip] As we all know, the trout’s brain is quite small and simple.

Not to be a wise-ass, but we do?  I mean, I think you’re right, but to pull a Wolfgang (which ain’t easy, lemme tell ya), how do we know? Granted, we can measure it as far as physical size, and do some experiments as far as electric charges, etc., but how can we (at this point, anyway) really know what a fish is "thinking" or perceiving? It can only process so many visual cues.  If we make this process overly complex, I think we make it more difficult than it need be.  I believe that a trout processes the visual cues that say "food" and ignores those that suggest otherwise (e.g. the hook.)  After all, a trout’s world is full of drifting debris.  It has to have a simple, yet quick way to differentiate between a small stick and a nymph, for example. If your fly has the necessary cues, the trout takes it, despite the big, ugly hook.  

Maybe they just intend to eat what appears to be the bug and not what appears to be whatever the hook appears to be.  When one gets a club sandwich, one doesn’t think, "Hmm, this looks good, well, except for that frilly stick in it.  I wonder if I have to eat that, too?" so perhaps it simply looks like a fish’s frilly stick or parsley sprig or whatever, or maybe they see insects on or near actual sticks, and eat the bug and either not eat or spit out the stick – maybe they see a stick and a bug, and when they spit out the stick, to their surprise and your consternation, the whole thing goes.  Or maybe, just like most living creatures, including humans, close is good enough if you are hungry enough or the food looks good enough.  If simply looking odd or different prevented predation, we’d be up to our hat brims  in things like albinos, genetic appearance deformities (that had no health ramifications), etc. because they’d be no natural predators of such things (well, except man and a few other things), they’d gradually become more prevalent. This differentiation process is probably learned through repetition – the more bugs of a certain type that pass by a trout, the more likely it will fixate on them and begin to feed.  It probably has to learn what is good to eat, every time a major hatch occurs – this explains why the early part of a hatch may not engender much of response. It may well perceive colour, light refraction, etc. differently than us, but there is only a few cues we need to get right.  This is one of the reasons why I don’t like to stray too much from the original materials in an old recipe.  Skues talks about how certain materials have a special quality in the water and appear more like the natural when presented in the trout’s world.  I think if you get the hackle and tail, size, and colour right, you’ll fool trout more often than not.

If you look at writers of the beginnings of the "dry fly era of prominence" (say from about 1870 to Mary Orvis Marbury, etc., forward), you find that there are vast differences of opinion as to replication vs. stimulation vs. "tempting" vs. simple guessing vs. planned experimentation.  Many felt that "fooling" the fish by making them think the fly was a true natural was all but impossible, and the closer you tried to get, the more "unnatural" your imitator would appear.  Maybe it was a mirror of the Impressionists, but some seem to feel that "suggesters" were more effective than imitators.  FWIW, my view has always been (and admittedly, it is both acquired from others and self-discovery) that there is much more to it than accurate-to-us appearing imitators, but YMMV.  For example, how many have had beat-up, ratty, tattered old flies, lures, etc., that produced better than new, truly accurate imitators? As to the history of the subject, if anyone is interested, I have some pretty old volumes, and some do talk about this very subject, plus I’m sure there are many others with other works, so perhaps we can piece together a history of this aspect of the sport. TC, R

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<Big Snip I’ll take dogs as an example, I know them pretty well after working with them for many years. If we try and understand how they smell things based on how we smell things, we couldn’t even begin to understand the complexity, importance and usefulness of smells in their life. Their sense of smell, how they interpret smells, and how they can use them is as alien to our sense of smell as our "intellect" is to theirs. If we used our sense of smell to try and understand theirs, our knowledge would be completely erroneous. Willi

I told my wife about this post and tried to get her to conduct an experiment, but she wouldn’t do it. All I wanted her to do was let me get the video camera and shoot video of her sniffing our Basset Hound’s butt and then giving me her perceptions. Among "other" things, she said I’d been on this news group way too long. <g

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Excellent synopsis Peter.  These types of discussions were what first attracted me to and later hooked me on ROFF.  My thanks to you, Willi, et all for the thought provoking insights/explanations. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] What does a trout see when our dry passes overhead? – a hackle dimpled surface film producing halos of light – a tail that also produces a dimpling along its length and the same light refraction – a protruding hook that is below the surface and produces no dimpling or halos – a body that for the most part is in shadow – the solid outline of a dun’s wings – all of this seen against a bright sky background First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.  As she gets closer, the colour and wing start to become important.  A fish can focus on a fly less than an inch from its nose – its close range vision is excellent – so the rest of the details have to start to make sense, the wing, the body colour, the size, etc. Trout seem to take flies for a number of reasons – obviously hunger and it matches what she’s been eating for the last half hour, curiosity, aggression, and playfulness.  I mentioned in a much earlier post, being fooled by three little browns that raced around chasing Gray Foxes.  It’s not wise to take an anthropomorphic interpretation of their behaviour, however, had they simply been hungry, they could have sat in one of the many feeding lanes and sipped Gray Foxes all afternoon.  It’s difficult to interpret their pack chasing behaviour as anything other than playful competition.  They also keyed on moving Gray Foxes, a still natural or imitation didn’t get a look. To sum it up, the fly should sit right, producing the right halos, plus it should cast a shadow of approximately the right size, and finally, it’s details should be right to pass the close range examination. This applies to picky fish in slower water condition; brookies in fast water tend to slash at anything that looks like food.  So in my neck of the woods, flies that will catch brookies on the cascade section of the Credit, will be a complete bust on the slow glides of the Grand. There’s too much variation o attempt generalize much further than this. (Much of the above wisdom, courtesy of various books by Lafontaine, Skues, et al.) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at

http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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<snipped interesting speculations of an experienced fishtricker  They also keyed on moving Gray Foxes, a still natural or imitation didn’t get a look.

kinda like on penns creek when we were there…  the march browns had to quiver a bit and just right to interest most of those finicky browns …anything just floating motionless on the water generally wouldn’t be touched.  i saw dozens of fish nail the bug just as it was starting to take off from the surface, and several coming full-body out of the water like a salmon to grab the bug in the air.  that was one of those memory etchings i look forward to collecting more of…

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Even during hatches, not all the fish will be keyed into the same features on a fly. With some, wings may be important, others how high or low the fly floats, others size, others sparseness, other "action", others color, other orientation etc. etc.  Just like people, I think there are fish that look for certain "right" characteristics in a fly and are triggered by it, those that look for something wrong and if found will reject it, and those that just want something to eat. Individual fish have individual feeding habits and preferences. There is no magic fly. Being successful means finding a fly that appeals to the majority of fish and turns off few. Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish. Willi

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Just like people, I think there are fish that look for certain "right" characteristics in a fly and are triggered by it…

- "Hey, Jimmie, looks like we got a hotty floating by at three o’clock!" – "Woa, dude, check out the hackles on *that* one!" – "Hey, there, midge! Why doncha drift on over to *my* riffle, baby?" –Steve (if fish could talk)

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Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish.

Not only do we merely perceive color differently than the fish (probably), we probably also overestimate color and underestimate behavior of the bug. This idea is explored in "What The Trout Said" and "Dry Fly: New Angles".

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Like most fly fishermen, I judge a fly by how it looks to me. But there is an added dimension to this that we tend to overlook. A fish is a species of animal that has more differences than commonality with man. It is impossible for us to perceive a fly as a fish perceives it, in a direct way. Color is an easy example. Trout and other fishes that live in shallow/clear water, perceive colors farther in both the shorter and longer wave lengths than people. This means that it is impossible to judge how a fish perceives the color of a fly using our eyes. What looks like a color match to us, may be completely off to a fish.

And although it simply states the obvious, the fish views the fly from a completely different angle, and through a different medium, so even if they did see (eye construction- and placement-wise) in the same manner as people, their frame of reference is completely different. It’s unlikely that man and fish will ever see a fly the same, regardless of the difference in the eyes. Moreover, we can not know what differences would go ignored, which would be seen as different but "OK," and which were different and off-putting.  As a simple example, most people would recognize and accept Wendy’s square hamburger as just another burger variant and eat it if they wanted a burger (yeah, yeah, eyeball jokes, taste, etc., aside), but given a choice between a burger with, say, asparagus spears, raw oysters, and orange sherbet and a plain burger, most would likely choose the plain one (even if they’d eat all the items in other combinations).   But as Willi points out, fish seem to be like people in that they do have individual habits, and occasionally, just like kids drinking pickle juice over ice, a fish might try and eat something different.   Fish "dine" on what comes past or is within sight, they don’t seem to "plan" dinner – "Ooh, honey, doesn’t the Four Seasons sound good, and then, we can go by the Carlyle for drinks and a little Bobby…" or decide that the tacos at El Asadero sound better than the seafood at Costa Azul and head that way.  But they can sometimes be tempted by teasing them with something that looks "food-ish" enough AND different enough to tempt them into taking a chance, just like you do when the waiter suggests the entire tenderloin, rare, with Hollandaise and a large side of creamed spinach, or the dessert cart comes by with the Double Chocolate Drunken Fudge Cream Cake with Buttery-Sweet Ice Cream on top.  You know you shouldn’t, the better half is gonna bitch, but like a moth to a flame….or rather, a hog to a trough…. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Willi

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[snip] What does a trout see when our dry passes overhead? – a hackle dimpled surface film producing halos of light – a tail that also produces a dimpling along its length and the same light refraction – a protruding hook that is below the surface and produces no dimpling or halos – a body that for the most part is in shadow – the solid outline of a dun’s wings – all of this seen against a bright sky background First off, the dimpling of the surface film has to look right, it’ll be the first thing the fish responds to.  As she gets closer, the colour and wing start to become important.  A fish can focus on a fly less than an inch from its nose – its close range vision is excellent – so the rest of the details have to start to make sense, the wing, the body colour, the size, etc. Trout seem to take flies for a number of reasons – obviously hunger and it matches what she’s been eating for the last half hour, curiosity, aggression, and playfulness.  I mentioned in a much earlier post, being fooled by three little browns that raced around chasing Gray Foxes.  It’s not wise to take an anthropomorphic interpretation of their behaviour, however, had they simply been hungry, they could have sat in one of the many feeding lanes and sipped Gray Foxes all afternoon.  It’s difficult to interpret their pack chasing behaviour as anything other than playful competition.  They also keyed on moving Gray Foxes, a still natural or imitation didn’t get a look.   To sum it up, the fly should sit right, producing the right halos, plus it should cast a shadow of approximately the right size, and finally, it’s details should be right to pass the close range examination. This applies to picky fish in slower water condition; brookies in fast water tend to slash at anything that looks like food.  So in my neck of the woods, flies that will catch brookies on the cascade section of the Credit, will be a complete bust on the slow glides of the Grand. There’s too much variation o attempt generalize much further than this. (Much of the above wisdom, courtesy of various books by Lafontaine, Skues, et al.) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

On a typical day of fishing – say on the recent San Juan Clave, what are the things in your vest/chest pack that you would not be without (besides flies)?  My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with?

At the Maine Clave in September, the Lakewood Camps staff prepared sack lunches for people who didn’t want to interrupt their fishing at mealtime. I recently found the remains of a stick of cheese from one of those lunches in the bottom of one of the front pockets of my vest. I left it there for good luck. –Steve

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Pretty much was Ken has said, except for the camera.  My most important tool is a knot tying tool, although if I lost it I could use my hemostats to tie the clinch knots. I also carry a stick of "Mean streak", a magic marker for coloring the last 12 – 16 inches of tippet white.   Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

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"Peter Charles" wrote Different fish  species usually means different stuff but the constants are: snip Peter

Nice list Peter, I also carry: Albolene Tippet material Extra leaders antiseptic Ernie

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two condoms, a wine opener, a yashica t4super, two rolls of film (one b&w, one 400asa fuji print), and a waterproof copy of the kama sutra.

Two, huh? Who’s the other guy? –Steve

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I also carry a stick of "Mean streak", a magic marker for coloring the last 12 – 16 inches of tippet white.

Interesting. I’ve never heard of doing something like that. I’m assuming that’s to make the tippet more invisible when fishing dry flies, no? Is that for mono tippet or only for flouro? I thought the darker colors were more invisible so this is news to me. –Steve

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frog fanny What’s a frog’s ass doin in your vest? Seriously though, what is it?

Frog’s Fanny is a self-described "Double Duty Fly Treatment". I first learned of it this summer from Mary Dorsey’s guide friend who gave me a couple of his "Ray Charles Specials", (even a blind guy could catch a fish on this fly , that had been brushed with this stuff. I was REALLY impressed with it and said so here on ROFF. Turns out Charlie Wilson had discovered this stuff a long time ago and was so impressed he bought a whole case, just in case they ever went out of business, so he sent me a bottle. It’s essentially a very fine powder that you apply with a brush to work it into the dubbing. Highly recommended. — Ken Fortenberry

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I also carry a stick of "Mean streak", a magic marker for coloring the last 12 – 16 inches of tippet white. "Zimbo" wrote … Interesting. I’ve never heard of doing something like that. I’m assuming that’s to make the tippet more invisible when fishing dry flies, no? Is that for mono tippet or only for flouro? I thought the darker colors were more invisible so this is news to me. –Steve

Zimbo, In some parts of the country there is a drifting caddis that spins a white line which helps it to drift.  A white tippet resembles this line. Ernie

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On a typical day of fishing – say on the recent San Juan Clave, what are the things in your vest/chest pack that you would not be without (besides flies)?  My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with?

I’m a bit of a minimalist, but here goes… – flies (usually in two small boxes) – extra tippet – license – floatant – hemostat – sunglasses – trash bag (for carrying out garbage left by other fishermen) Don’t have a vest, usually use a generic fanny-pack.      - Ken

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Zimbo writes: I also carry a stick of "Mean streak", a magic marker for coloring the last 12 – 16 inches of tippet white. Interesting. I’ve never heard of doing something like that. I’m assuming that’s to make the tippet more invisible when fishing dry flies, no? Is that for mono tippet or only for flouro? I thought the darker colors were more invisible so this is news to me. –Steve

No.  It is used to color the tippet (kind doesn’t matter) to mock the thread of net making caddis worms.  It is a neat trick used on the Rapid and other rivers in Maine.  It works with the green rock worm.  Sometimes the worms (larva) are washed away from their rock, but hold on, not unlike a spider dangling from his web.  Read Gary LaFontaine’sCaddisflies. Dave L.

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On a typical day of fishing – say on the recent San Juan Clave, what are the things in your vest/chest pack that you would not be without (besides flies)?  My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with?

in my wader pocket- -spool or 2 of maxima -license -hook file tucked inside front of wader (or if raining in rain jacket pockets)- -one flybox -one shooting head wallet for holding sink-tips vests suck,<G chris

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Nice list Peter, I also carry: Albolene Tippet material Extra leaders antiseptic Ernie

I’ll be you carry yourself very well, Ernie. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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: Frog’s Fanny is a self-described "Double Duty Fly Treatment". : It’s essentially a very fine powder that you apply with a : brush to work it into the dubbing. Highly recommended. So is it bait or what?  ;-) You never actually say what double duties it performs… JonCook. — Are you a r.o.f.f. newbie? Then see http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/

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On a typical day of fishing – say on the recent San Juan Clave, what are the things in your vest/chest pack that you would not be without (besides flies)?  My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with?

There’s no rule that says you need to fill them. What I carry depends on where I’m fishing. For local waters or waters where I think I know what to expect, I have a somewhat minimal fishing shirt I use that has only two pockets. I carry floatant, nippers, and two spools of tippet. I carry two small flies boxes.  Inside of one of the boxes there is some Biostrike strike ind. and a few small weights in addition to flies. I ALWAYS carry a pair of reading glasses. On waters I’m not familiar with, I carry a fully loaded vest but the main difference is more flies. I do try and avoid this because I find a fully loaded vest a pain. Willi

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: Frog’s Fanny is a self-described "Double Duty Fly Treatment". … You never actually say what double duties it performs…

Blurb straight off the bottle; … Frog’s Fanny is not only the best dry fly floatant that you will ever use, now you can really "Match the Hatch" by coating your nymphs with Frog’s Fanny. It will put an air bubble around them that looks exactly like an emerging insect. It floats a dry fly better than anything I’ve ever used if brushed into the dubbing thoroughly, can’t vouch for the "air bubble around the nymph" claim. — Ken Fortenberry

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good inventory snipped<

This shows me that I don’t fish often enough.   To give the detailed inventory Ken offers, I’d have to get out my vest and check. I never carry my sunglasses in my vest, they stay on a neck cord.   I don’t usually carry a compass, but I have taken a small GPS on occasion.   Never needed a tape measure (yet).   Don’t carry a Leatherman tool, but have a nifty little pair of curved needlenose pliers. All in all, I carry much the same stuff as Ken, except in my upper right outside pocket are some strike indicators. Nice idea for a thread, thanks TR.<

ditto. Joe F.

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I’ll add ; a small pen lite flashlight, a cheap pair of reading glasses chap stick pocket knife – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with? Inside pockets (5): first aid kit leatherman tool map & compass car keys Outside vest: patch of amadou nipper on a retractable cord hemostat foam fly patch (can’t get barbless hooks to stay on a wool patch) hook hone Upper right pockets (2): leader wallet with spare leaders & licenses floatant frog fanny Orvis dessicant Upper left pockets (2): camera spools of tippet (usually 4X, 5X, 6X for trout) Lower right pockets (2): sunglasses whisky flask fly box Lower left pockets (3): stream thermometer (used to be outside next to hook hone but I lost too many) fly box red Mucilin patch of Cortland line cleaner container of assorted weights (rarely used tape measure Back of vest (two compartments): lunch water bottle rain jacket and a brand new landing net from Float ‘n Fish. Nice idea for a thread, thanks TR.

         Harry Mason     www.Troutflies.com               *** "Quality Flies for a Trout’s Eyes"

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Different fish  species usually means different stuff but the constants are: nippers hemostat hook sharpener magnet-needle-nailknot thingie key to the back of my truck flashlight thermometer bandaids compass matches splitshot strike indicator putty spare sunglasses also usually carry a small camera and a flask of the good stuff Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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frog fanny

What’s a frog’s ass doin in your vest? Seriously though, what is it?

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At first you just put in a few things that you need and before you know it you don’t have any room left. Ernie "TimeRanger" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On a typical day of fishing – say on the recent San Juan Clave, what are the things in your vest/chest pack that you would not be without (besides flies)?  My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with?

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On a typical day of fishing -, what are the things in your vest/chest pack that you would not be without (besides flies)?

        two condoms, a wine opener, a yashica t4super, two rolls of film (one b&w, one 400asa fuji print), and a waterproof copy of the kama sutra. wayno

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… My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with?

I use an LL Bean chest pack and usually carry the following: Outside: Albolene Nippers Hemostat Flashlight Insect repellent Leader straightener Mesh Pockets: Tippet Material, sizes depending on stream and time of year, Inside: Goose neck light Compass Reading glasses Sunglasses Extra leaders More tippet material Dessicant 1-1/2" square magnet(instead of fleece patch) Weights Small needle nose pliers Car key Wallet containing licenses Thermometer Hook hone Line dressing Backstrap: Maps (if needed) Spare reel spool w/line Bandana Toilet Paper Wader patch Spare glasses Lunch, light jacket, or rain gear (if needed) In very hot weather, I use a mesh backstrap which carries nothing, so all of the above would be eliminated. Again, good idea for a thread. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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On a typical day of fishing – say on the recent San Juan Clave, what are the things in your vest/chest pack that you would not be without (besides flies)?  My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with?

In my vest (just going by memory here) Inside Pockets Left Side Leader Wallet (3 packs of 10′ 5x & 7.5" 6x leader. One fast sinking leader) Extra Spool of 5x, 6x tippet Pewter Flask (filled with either Captain Morgan, Talisker or Tequila) Miniature Flashlight Inside Pockets Right Side Eyeglasses Fishing License Bottom Left Outside Pockets Two foam fly boxes – one nymph/emergers, one dry fly Bottom Right Outside Pockets Midge Fly box David’s  Sunflower Seeds (Salsa or Ranch) Middle Outside Pocket Leatherman Tool Spyderco Pocket Knife Top Outside Pocket Split shot Strike Indicators (Yarn and Foam) Outside D-ring left side – Fly floatant – Albolene Outside Right side – Old metal shower curtain ring – holds two spools of tippet Zinger with Snips for tippet Back zippered section – If weather looks bad – store my rain jacket in there.  If it is good weather, will store extra beers. Depending on time of year, In the bottom of it, carry my fingerless wool gloves Back outside D-ring – Net Wear a fanny pack for lower back support, wade belt Outside Pocket Safewater Bottle (In a pinch will also hold 3 beers and a small sandwich) Inside chest waders pocket – On the San Juan, carried my digital camera in a Ziploc freezer sandwich bag bc. — I don’t care who you are, you are not walking on the water while I’m fishing.

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On a typical day of fishing – say on the recent San Juan Clave, what are the things in your vest/chest pack that you would not be without (besides flies)?  My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with? — All fishermen are liars ‘cept you n me, and I’m starting to have doubts about you! www.fishticker.com

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… My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with?

Inside pockets (5): first aid kit leatherman tool map & compass car keys Outside vest: patch of amadou nipper on a retractable cord hemostat foam fly patch (can’t get barbless hooks to stay on a wool patch) hook hone Upper right pockets (2): leader wallet with spare leaders & licenses floatant frog fanny Orvis dessicant Upper left pockets (2): camera spools of tippet (usually 4X, 5X, 6X for trout) Lower right pockets (2): sunglasses whisky flask fly box Lower left pockets (3): stream thermometer (used to be outside next to hook hone but I lost too many) fly box red Mucilin patch of Cortland line cleaner container of assorted weights (rarely used tape measure Back of vest (two compartments): lunch water bottle rain jacket and a brand new landing net from Float ‘n Fish. Nice idea for a thread, thanks TR. — Ken Fortenberry

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Question:

Well, just back from my first casting lesson – very informative and useful.  some comments that may be of use to others: EVERY newbie should take a course – even one like mine at $50.00 for three hours, just to learn the basics, and rub shoulders with those who are experienced.  I learned just as much after the class just listening to the shop conversation as I did on the field. I had purchased an 8-wt. Fenwick HMG for stripers and salmon here in the Sacramento Delta.  After the instructor threw a few lines with it, he pronounced it to be a "gun" more like a 10-weight, and should be rigged and used accordingly.  (the rest of the class were using borrowed Sage 6-wts.)  I also learned you need a large capacity reel for anything much over a 7-weight, so if you are buying equipment, keep that in mind.   While I read books and watched videos, it did not compare with one-on-one instruction from someone watching your hand, wrist, arm and cast.  After the field instruction, we went back to the shop for a rigging lesson, learning knots from butt to leader to tippet to fly. And, a great tip – carry a map book with you everywhere – put it in your truck.  when someone tells you about a neat spot to fish, get the map, and get the exact location. Thanks to all, and I will see you on the river (after I get a reel and a sinking line setup…) Bill — William J. Kelly River Communications "We help business communicate" PO Box 691 Rio Vista, CA 94571 707-374-5816 www.thegrid.net/kelly

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, just back from my first casting lesson – very informative and useful.  some comments that may be of use to others: EVERY newbie should take a course – even one like mine at $50.00 for three hours, just to learn the basics, and rub shoulders with those who are experienced.  I learned just as much after the class just listening to the shop conversation as I did on the field. I had purchased an 8-wt. Fenwick HMG for stripers and salmon here in the Sacramento Delta.  After the instructor threw a few lines with it, he pronounced it to be a "gun" more like a 10-weight, and should be rigged and used accordingly.  (the rest of the class were using borrowed Sage 6-wts.)  I also learned you need a large capacity reel for anything much over a 7-weight, so if you are buying equipment, keep that in mind. While I read books and watched videos, it did not compare with one-on-one instruction from someone watching your hand, wrist, arm and cast.  After the field instruction, we went back to the shop for a rigging lesson, learning knots from butt to leader to tippet to fly. And, a great tip – carry a map book with you everywhere – put it in your truck.  when someone tells you about a neat spot to fish, get the map, and get the exact location. Thanks to all, and I will see you on the river (after I get a reel and a sinking line setup…) Bill — William J. Kelly River Communications "We help business communicate" PO Box 691 Rio Vista, CA 94571 707-374-5816 www.thegrid.net/kelly

I’ve been flyfishing for about 8 years now and most (99%) of my casting skill is self taught. Though last year as I was talking to one of my local flyshop owners ( 1 shop, 2 owners), I asked him what they charged for a casting lesson. He grabbed a rod and took me outside and gave me one for free. They’ll give anyone one for free. The last time I talked to him (last Saturday night) he invited me to go fishing with him sometime soon. I jumped on that one as I’ve been looking to fish w/ someone with more experience than me. The trip isn’t planned out yet but you can bet it will be soon, I can’t wait. This guy normally charges money to fish with him. I guess being a regular in a small town shop has it’s privileges. Tight lines, Darin

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Question:

I am looking for a web site that has salt water fly tying. I am going to Key West in June and I would like to tie some flies before I go. Any ideas?

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Try http://www.mindspring.com jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for a web site that has salt water fly tying. I am going to Key West in June and I would like to tie some flies before I go. Any ideas?

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I apologize my previous post was a bum address try  http://www.mindspring.com/~joeb3   Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for a web site that has salt water fly tying. I am going to Key West in June and I would like to tie some flies before I go. Any ideas?

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Thanks! This is exactly what I was looking for. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I apologize my previous post was a bum address try  http://www.mindspring.com/~joeb3  Jim I am looking for a web site that has salt water fly tying. I am going to Key West in June and I would like to tie some flies before I go. Any ideas?

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Try http://www.reel-time.com/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for a web site that has salt water fly tying. I am going to Key West in June and I would like to tie some flies before I go. Any ideas?

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Try Joe Branham’s page www.mindspring.com/~joeb3

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I am looking for a web site that has salt water fly tying. I am going to Key West in June and I would like to tie some flies before I go. Any ideas?

Hi JG, I try to get some sample patterns from someone who fishes the area. I would order some samples of the patterns for the fish that you are after. There are lots of things going on in FL in April/May/June. Example: If you are not renting a boat or going with a guide, you won’t need any tarpon flies, so why tie any? On foot, the most popular thing to fly fish for are bonefish. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop www.kiene.com

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Question:

Asking the usual question…looking for suggestions for best fly fishing in the general area of Lava Hot Springs in southern Idaho.  Appreciate it.  I might like to leave the family in the pool and seek my own kind of adventure for a day. P. Bowers

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Asking the usual question…looking for suggestions for best fly fishing in the general area of Lava Hot Springs in southern Idaho.  Appreciate it.  I might like to leave the family in the pool and seek my own kind of adventure for a day.

Check out the upper Portneuf River above Lava Hot Springs.  This river used to be pretty darn good, went downhill, and has recently undergone some stream improvement.  Ask for local directions to the old highway (not the one over Fish Creek Summit).  Try the area up around Pebble Creek.   Regards, George O. Jacox Boise, ID City of Trees

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Check out the upper Portneuf River above Lava Hot Springs.  This river used to be pretty darn good, went downhill, and has recently undergone some stream improvement.  Ask for local directions to the old highway (not the one over Fish Creek Summit).  Try the area up around Pebble Creek.  

P.S. Watch out for African lions.  <bg  Unfortunately, it’s too long a story to reproduce here.  Ask one of the locals and you’ll get an earful. Enjoy yourself on the Portneuf.  That’s the river I learned to flyfish on, many moons ago. Regards, George O. Jacox Boise, ID City of Trees

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Asking the usual question…looking for suggestions for best fly fishing in the general area of Lava Hot Springs in southern Idaho.  Appreciate it.  I might like to leave the family in the pool and seek my own kind of adventure for a day. P. Bowers

Upper Portneuf can be good. Kelly-Toponce area is best. Several access points along Rte 30 north of Lava. Downstream toward McCammon where the big bridge crosses the river there is an irrigation diversion, some swampy spots and several channels. Some decent browns there but very difficult to get to. You might also try tubing Chesterfield Reservoir (on upper Portneuf) or 24-Mile Reservoir. Both can be very good. Next few weeks might be tough though. The algae comes up off the bottom in big clumps a couple feet across and inches thick and clog the surface. It’s about that time. Should sink again or break up by mid-Sep. Another place you might consider that’s fairly close is the upper Blackfoot River. See the article in October Western Flyfishing mag. I was there last weekend. Lots of cutts, but mostly small. Still fun though. If you’re in Pocatello, stop at Jimmy’s All Seasons Angler and find out what’s what. There are a bunch of other reservoirs in the area that are pretty good. Luck & Tight Lines! Lance    web stuff at: www.primenet.com/~hankins

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Question:

I am looking for flyfishing spots within 1hour drive of arlington,va to fish with my 8 year old son. Ideally, looking for spots with parking available within 1mile of site-please e-mail thx

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As someone who travels to DC often, I’d like to know about any nearby flyfishing, too. Please post replies or include me in the e-mail. Thanks! Rod Forth

Ok.  You’ll hear people write about the Patapsco, Potomac, Hunting Creek and others around DC. The Pat and the Pot have some Smallmouth, the Pat a few put-n-take  trout in the Spring.  Hunting Creek is worthless as a trout fishery — it’s become one of the great disappointments in Maryland because of uncontrolled flow  – meaning very little flow (so don’t waste your time driving to Thurmont unless you want to see some pretty scenary).   Set your sights on the Gunpowder in northern Baltimore county, below Prettyboy reservoir.    Best thing going (within a couple hours of DC, anyway). One rule:  Put them back unharmed.  Thanks. J

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I know of the big hunting creek in the Cotoctin mountain. There are also a few others in the area. I’ve been there a couple of times but i’m not sure of the highway that goes there. I do know that it is near FREDERICK and THURMONT MD. It is about an hour drive from DC. I suggest you look at a map or better yet call a local fly shop. tight lines mike* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As someone who travels to DC often, I’d like to know about any nearby flyfishing, too. Please post replies or include me in the e-mail. Thanks! Rod Forth

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Question:

Would someone mind sending me or posting their recipe for Dave’s red fox squirrel nymph.  A few freinds of mine are having a lively discussion on the true pattern. Thanks — gp

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Why rely on second-hand responses when you can go right to the source?   Go to http://www.flyfield.com on the web to the Fly and Field fly tying site.  The Red Fox Squirrel Nymph is this month’s featured pattern from Dave Whitlock.

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writes: Would someone mind sending me or posting their recipe for Dave’s red fox squirrel nymph.  A few freinds of mine are having a lively discussion on the true pattern. Thanks — gp

Taken from "Masters On the Nymph", edited by Migel & Wright, 1979 Lyons & Burford Pub. Dave’s Red Fox Squirrel Nymph – taken verbatim from Dave Whitlock, p.135. Hook:           Mustad 9671, sizes 4-18 Body Weight:    6 to 10 wraps lead at thorax Thread:         Black Tail:           Sparse tuft of red-fox squirrel back hair, including                   both guard and underfur 1/2 length of hook shank Rib:            Small oval tinsel Abdomen:        Red-fox squirrel belly fur Thorax:         Red-fox squirrel back fur (with guard and underfur                     included) Wingcase:       Dark brown swiss straw or turkey tail Legs:           Either guard hairs of red-fox squirrel back or one turn                 of dark partridge hackle     The commercial version of this fly is typically tied with partridge hackle, synthetic dubbing and no wingcase – without a bit of red-fox squirrel in the entire fly! Good Tying,             Alan Barnard                         Kiene’s Fly Shop                         Sacramento, Ca.

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Would someone mind sending me or posting their recipe for Dave’s red fox squirrel nymph.  A few freinds of mine are having a lively discussion on the true pattern.

I’ve kept a copy of the original 5 page Dave Whitlock article from a "Fly Fisherman" magazine of many years ago, so here’s a word-for-word recital of same. Dave doth spake unto us, and he said: "Dave Whitlock’s *Standard* Red Fox Squirrel-Hair Nymph Hook:    Mustad 9671 or Tiemco Nymph Hook, #2 to #18 Thread:  Black or dark brown nylon Cement:  Dave’s Flexament [of course! ;^)] Weight:  Lead or copper wire Abdomen: Belly fur from red fox squirrel skin, may be blended with synthetic            sparkle dubbing. Abdomen should be 1/2 to 2/3 of overall body length. Thorax:  Back fur from red fox squirrel skin, may be blended with synthetic            sparkle dubbing. Thorax should be 1/2 to 1/3 of overall body length. Rib:     Gold wire or oval tinsel Tail:    Small tuft of back fur from red fox squirrel skin. Tail is          approximately 1/2 of hook shank length. Note: Squirrel tail hair is completely unsatisfactory for this nymph’s body or tail! Hair from the animal’s body, not the tail, must be used. That is why [he insists] on calling it the Red Fox Squirrel-Hair Nymph. Many tyers have confused this nymph with one of the many squirrel-tail patterns." If the argument is about the dubbing mix, Dave suggested the following: Thorax blend: Cut or shave the back hair off the skin and mix thoroughly in a small coffee-grinder-type blender. Cut yarn or synthetic dubbing into 3/8 to 1/2 inch lengths. Place the synthetic in the blender and mix it thoroughly. Now take a proper 70/30 portion of fur and synthetic and blend those together. Abdomen blend: Cut or shave the belly hair off the skin and repeat the procedure outlined above, except for the belly fur synthetic color and the 60:40 fur to synthetic ratio. Notes: – no wing case is necessary. – nymph should be tied "in the round". – thorax should be enlarged compared to the abdomen and losely wound so the     guard-hair tips will radiate to simulate legs, wing cases, antenna, and       gills in a fuzzy "halo" (fwiw: I use a small strip of the Velcro "hook"       material glued to a popsicle stick to tease the thorax on this and similar     hair nymphs). – tail has 4 or 5 guard hairs and a small bunch of underfur. Try to leave only   the tan base exposed (tie down and dub over the gray base hair). – Antron sparkle yarn is great for the synthetic part of the dubbing mixes.     I use their Amber Stone for the belly (abdomen) mix, and a mixture of Black,   Gray, and Brown for the back (thorax) mix. Hope this settles the argument! Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <         "Read this and nobody gets hurt ;^)"         < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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Would someone mind sending me or posting their recipe for Dave’s red fox squirrel nymph.  A few freinds of mine are having a lively discussion on the true pattern. Thanks

Try the Fly and Field web site http://www.flyfield.com/ Last time I looked there were detailed tying instructions and photographs. Simon Simon Lusk Fly Fishing New Zealand on the WWW http://www-aghort.massey.ac.nz/flyfish/intro Department of Consumer Technology Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand

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