Question:

There are a lot of great trout streams in the UP. I fish the streams around Iron county as that is where I live, these include S. Branch of the Paint, Cook’s Run, and The Iron River. One of the highest rated streams is the Fox River but I have never fished it. I lived in the PNW for a year, the rivers here are alot smaller but also seem to hold alot more trout. You will find Brook, Brown and a few Rainbows. There are also some Steelhead runs in the streams that flow into lake Superior. Depending on where in the UP you plan on going you will find alot of fishing of many different types. Let me know if you need more info. I am thinking about heading the UP of Michigan in the next few weeks for a little camping/fishing.  I am an avid fly fisherman, but all of my experience is in the Pacific Northwest and the

Montana/Wyoming region.  In other words, I am completely unfamiliar with that area of the country in terms of fishing other than a lot of people have told me it’s a great place to go.  Can anyone recommend some rivers, streams, or lakes that are good bets for fly fishing? Thanks, Tom

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Response:

I am thinking about heading the UP of Michigan in the next few weeks for a little camping/fishing.  I am an avid fly fisherman, but all of my experience is in the Pacific Northwest and the Montana/Wyoming region.  In other words, I am completely unfamiliar with that area of the country in terms of fishing other than a lot of people have told me it’s a great place to go.  Can anyone recommend some rivers, streams, or lakes that are good bets for fly fishing? Thanks, Tom

Response:

Question:

0] : Im S

Question:

Last weekend I camped on the Beaverkill river in Roscoe, NY.  Feeling somewhat daunted by the low water, I fished the first evening at Hendrickson Pool. There was a good spinner fall and some caddis activity.  I got a strike when it was barely light enough to see.  I set the hook, and got screeched into my backing.  It took me way upstream.  I was stranded on the large rock I stood on, not wanting to follow it in the dark.  I also knew that there was a wind knot in my tippet – making a breakoff a huge likelyhood. I finally managed to land the fish.  A nineteen inch brown trout – snagged right in the vent(you know, its asshole).  I wondered how I could have managed that with a dry fly.  I left, wondering whether to feel proud or cheated. The next night, I fished the same pool.  I noticed a rise in the same spot, and sent a drift through there.  It was the same nineteen inch brownie, this time hooked properly.  There were three guys within sight to watch me, and they all made appreciative remarks as I picked it out of the water. HA! Pete C

Response:

Pete,    If that Brown came back for seconds on the kind of treatment he got on the first night, I think I would wonder about his sexual preferences. Ernie Harrison Like to make fly-fishing stuff?  See: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh/

<snip  A nineteen inch brown trout – snagged right in the vent(you know, its

asshole). <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The next night, I fished the same pool.  I noticed a rise in the same spot, and sent a drift through there.  It was the same nineteen inch brownie <snip Pete C

Response:

If that Brown came back for seconds on the kind of treatment he got on the first night, I think I would wonder about his sexual preferences. Ernie Harrison..

Reminds me of the story of the massive alternative lifestyle grizzly bear..

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <stuff I deletedThen there’s the ‘cruelty’ aspect of industrial meat production,which no doubt has some merit in some cases.  But so what? They’re*animals*.  <more stuff deleted for brevity Actually, the animal rights argument runs a little deeper than just the nastiness of factory farms.  They would probably say that an animal is the experiencing subject of a life and, as such, has a good of its own that is independent of, and unrelated to, any practical good humans derive from its consumption.  Since animals are the experiencing subjects of a life with a good of their own it is wrong (in their view) to kill them for fun or profit. These are not my views necessarily–just some stuff that I picked up in a course on enviromental ethics.  I’m not saying that I agree with them, or that you should.  Just that there’s way more to that side of the argument than the people who inhabit the blood sport newsgroups like this one want to look at (yeah . . . flyfishing’s a blood sport whether you want it to be or not).  There is a strong philosophical foundation in much of the animal rights debate.  Study some of it and you might not be so sure about what you think.  This is called character growth.  It’s practiced by people who haven’t limited how big they want to be. The PETA people are not all the irrational terrorists many in this group would like to make them out to be.  Just as the people here are not all the bloodthirsty yahoos that some PETA folks would like us to be. Though some posts you encounter here gotta make you wonder . . . Pete People Eating Tasty Animals

Response:

<stuff I deletedThen there’s the ‘cruelty’ aspect of industrial meat production,which no doubt has some merit in some cases.  But so what? They’re*animals*.  <more stuff deleted for brevity

Actually, the animal rights argument runs a little deeper than just the nastiness of factory farms.  They would probably say that an animal is the experiencing subject of a life and, as such, has a good of its own that is independent of, and unrelated to, any practical good humans derive from its consumption.  Since animals are the experiencing subjects of a life with a good of their own it is wrong (in their view) to kill them for fun or profit. These are not my views necessarily–just some stuff that I picked up in a course on enviromental ethics.  I’m not saying that I agree with them, or that you should.  Just that there’s way more to that side of the argument than the people who inhabit the blood sport newsgroups like this one want to look at (yeah . . . flyfishing’s a blood sport whether you want it to be or not).  There is a strong philosophical foundation in much of the animal rights debate.  Study some of it and you might not be so sure about what you think.  This is called character growth.  It’s practiced by people who haven’t limited how big they want to be. The PETA people are not all the irrational terrorists many in this group would like to make them out to be.  Just as the people here are not all the bloodthirsty yahoos that some PETA folks would like us to be. Though some posts you encounter here gotta make you wonder . . . Pete

Response:

<stuff I deletedThen there’s the ‘cruelty’ aspect of industrial meat production,which no doubt has some merit in some cases.  But so what? They’re*animals*.  <more stuff deleted for brevity

flyfishing’s a blood sport whether you want it to be or not).  There is a strong philosophical foundation in much of the animal rights debate.

(snipped a lot. . .) The fish get released. I don’t play them until they’re exhausted, not even close. Fish don’t have nerves in the mouth area.  Fish don’t reflect and philosophize a great deal on the existential paradigm. I sometimes wonder if being caught and released might not break up the monotony encountered in a aqueous existence of sucking bugs in a stream. Annie Oakley’s Casting & Blasting Page, shooting and fly fishing links: http://members.tripod.com/~AnnieOakley/CastAndBlast.html Annie’s retired and too busy to be a millionaire. Skip the spam.

Response:

These are not my views necessarily–just some stuff that I picked up in a course on enviromental ethics.  I’m not saying that I agree with them, or that you should.  Just that there’s way more to that side of the argument than the people who inhabit the blood sport newsgroups like this one want to look at (yeah . . . flyfishing’s a blood sport whether you want it to be or not).  There is a strong philosophical foundation in much of the animal rights debate.  

Emotional maybe – but philosophical?  I don’t think so. I know a person who used to belong to PETA and we have had many debates on the subject.  She was opened minded about debating it and realized in the end that most of her arguments were not based on logic.  I married that lady.  She still doesn’t eat meat but OUR son likes nothing better than a thick juicy elk steak. Marty

Response:

I sometimes wonder if being caught and released might not break up the monotony encountered in a aqueous existence of sucking bugs in a stream.

Maybe they view it like humans who run with bulls or some other exhilarating adventure. They may enjoy the challenge(especially if they know they are living in a C&R only stream. How do you know they are not playing with us anglers? Judging by some of the antics I have seen fish pull, that little splash in the face before the return to their space in the stream or making a victory lap of the whole with a leap after they throw your hook. I think about this sometimes. Do you think I spend to much time with trout? regards, Joe Webb Atlanta Macintosh User Group

Response:

These are not my views necessarily–just some stuff that I picked up in a course on enviromental ethics.  I’m not saying that I agree with them, or that you should.  Just that there’s way more to that side of the argument than the people who inhabit the blood sport newsgroups like this one want to look at (yeah . . . flyfishing’s a blood sport whether you want it to be or not).  There is a strong philosophical foundation in much of the animal rights debate.  Study some of it and you might not be so sure about what you think.  This is called character growth.  It’s practiced by people who haven’t limited how big they want to be.

Pete – I have studied what PETA proposes and I disagree with about 99% of it. I find NO strong philosophical foundation to any of the AR drivel. The self righteous statement about character growth at the end of this paragraph is typical of the holier than thou AR propaganda.   The PETA people are not all the irrational terrorists many in this group would like to make them out to be.  Just as the people here are not all the bloodthirsty yahoos that some PETA folks would like us to be. Though some posts you encounter here gotta make you wonder . . . Pete

Pete – If you truly believe that PETA represents a rational approach then go for it, QUIETLY!!!! Regards – DICK

Response:

These are not my views necessarily–just some stuff that I picked up in a course on enviromental ethics.  I’m not saying that I agree with them, or that you should.  Just that there’s way more to that side of the argument than the people who inhabit the blood sport newsgroups like this one want to look at Pete – I have studied what PETA proposes and I disagree with about 99% of it. I find NO strong philosophical foundation to any of the AR drivel

see if your library has a copy of Singers’ "Practical Ethics" which contains several chapters on animals rights vegetarianism etc. I believe he also wrote a book called "Animal Rights". Peter (I think) Singer is a professor of Philosophy (not sure where right now) and bases much of his argument on the well established notion of "utilitarianism". Of course many of the groups like PETA have been infuenced by people such as Singer but lack his control of rhetoric or depth of thought. This is not to say I agree with Singer. Others have argued that animals are outside the normal ‘realm’ of ethics or at least moral law. Singer refers to some of these authors in his book and you can follow those up if you have access to a good (ie university) library. Ralph H remove "take_this_out" for email reply

Response:

see if your library has a copy of Singers’ "Practical Ethics" which contains several chapters on animals rights vegetarianism etc. I believe he also wrote a book called "Animal Rights". Peter (I think) Singer is a professor of Philosophy (not sure where right now) and bases much of his argument on the well established notion of "utilitarianism".

Yes, I’ve read Singer, and am familiar with utilitarianism (simply stated:  do what brings the least pain and the most pleasure). Of course many of the groups like PETA have been infuenced by people such as Singer but lack his control of rhetoric or depth of thought.

Yes.  But the folks who did the dying 1774 – 1783 didn’t have Thomas Paine’s or James Madison’s control of rhetoric or depth of thought either (to use just one example of many possible). This is not to say I agree with Singer. Others have argued that animals are outside the normal ‘realm’ of ethics or at least moral law. Singer refers to some of these authors in his book and you can follow those up if you have access to a good (ie university) library.

Understood.  I don’t agree either.  One excellent author well worth reading is Paul Taylor, a professor (Stanford?) also.  His book "Respect for Nature" is a classic.  Taylor would argue that sports like fishing show a lack of respect for nature.  The explanation for why is complicated and well beyond the scope of a post like this (not sure I could explain it well from memory anyway). My point was–and is–that there is WAY more to this debate than than meets the eye.  Before we reject the arguments out of hand (as some have done to my original post) remember this:  folks who once said that slavery was bad were derided as sanctimonious moralizers too.  AndI guess we know how that debate ended. To conclude too quickly that the "other side" is kooky is to put your opinions in the service of your own comfort.  Life sure is a lot less complicated if you don’t think too hard.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <stuff I deletedThen there’s the ‘cruelty’ aspect of industrial meat production,which no doubt has some merit in some cases.  But so what? They’re*animals*.  <more stuff deleted for brevity Actually, the animal rights argument runs a little deeper than just the nastiness of factory farms.  They would probably say that an animal is the experiencing subject of a life and, as such, has a good of its own that is independent of, and unrelated to, any practical good humans derive from its consumption.  Since animals are the experiencing subjects of a life with a good of their own it is wrong (in their view) to kill them for fun or profit. These are not my views necessarily–just some stuff that I picked up in a course on enviromental ethics.  I’m not saying that I agree with them, or that you should.  Just that there’s way more to that side of the argument than the people who inhabit the blood sport newsgroups like this one want to look at (yeah . . . flyfishing’s a blood sport whether you want it to be or not).  There is a strong philosophical foundation in much of the animal rights debate.  Study some of it and you might not be so sure about what you think.  This is called character growth.  It’s practiced by people who haven’t limited how big they want to be. The PETA people are not all the irrational terrorists many in this group would like to make them out to be.  Just as the people here are not all the bloodthirsty yahoos that some PETA folks would like us to be. Though some posts you encounter here gotta make you wonder . . . Pete Long live P(eople)E(ating)T(asty)A(nimals)

Hank

Response:

If the reincarnationists are right, you may get a chance to find out! —                                                            -dnc- AnnieOakley wrote [snip] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I sometimes wonder if being caught and released might not break up the monotony encountered in a aqueous existence of sucking bugs in a stream.

Response:

… you are correct to focus on the ‘non-personhood’ question, because this is exactly where the entire discussion hinges.  The animal rights people have made a mental leap that you, me, and probably everyone else in this group won’t (or at least hasn’t).  If you posit that animals are the EXPERIENCING SUBJECTS OF A LIFE and that as such they have a GOOD OF THEIR OWN that is unrelated to their usefulness to humans then the waters become murkier.

restricting the discussion to fish alone I would say the fish have a value beyond their use to fishers or the food value of their flesh. I believe a fish or fish (pl) in the water have a near immeasurable value. I would also agree that being ‘alive’ and having a central nervous system (8^) fish must experience ‘a life’; though what sort of life we can’t really know. I don’t base the value of my angling on fish being of no intrinsic worth and being insensate. I would say I fish because I am a human being and we are natural creatures in that we are products of nature. The natural way of things sees living things using other living things to their own end. I accept this inherent part of my nature. Fishing is an expression of this, my chance to partcipate at the natural level of things. Where I differ with other animals is that rationality of reason gives me foresight to see how my actions my effect the value of fish or of nature as a whole in the future. This governs and influences my actions as a fisher. I don’t divorce myself from nature or myself as the PETA people do rather I ‘dive right in’ to use a related metaphor. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Response:

…but a fish is not a person. The superflurous analogy of slavery and racism dies quickly and easily there.

Yeah but all analogies are superfluous.  The more you want them to be superfluous, the more superfluous they seem. However, you are correct to focus on the ‘non-personhood’ question, because this is exactly where the entire discussion hinges.  The animal rights people have made a mental leap that you, me, and probably everyone else in this group won’t (or at least hasn’t).  If you posit that animals are the EXPERIENCING SUBJECTS OF A LIFE and that as such they have a GOOD OF THEIR OWN that is unrelated to their usefulness to humans then the waters become murkier. Again I say . . . you don’t have to agree, but if you want to be intellectually honest you must concede that there is more to the AR arguments that the simplified arguments "our" side sometimes likes to toss out.  Ralph, I don’t think you’re part of that crowd.  But they’re here. This battle is going to get bigger as the years go by.  Do you think the yahoos will help us win it?  I don’t (yeeeehaaaa . . . let’s go four wheelin’ and tear up some wildflowers!) Pete

Response:

see if your library has a copy of Singers’ "Practical Ethics"  One excellent author well worth reading is Paul Taylor, a professor (Stanford?) also.  His book "Respect for Nature" is a classic.  Taylor would argue that sports like fishing show a lack of respect for nature.  remember this:  folks who once said that slavery was bad were derided as sanctimonious moralizers too.  AndI guess we know how that debate ended.

…but a fish is not a person. The superflurous analogy of slavery and racism dies quickly and easily there. Ralph H remove "take_this_out" for email reply

Response:

Question:

i’ll be vacationing in hampton beach new hampshire, and would appreciate advice on good spots for either stripers or smallies. what about the inlet and back waters at hampton beach or the mouth of the merrymack river at the mass border? what flies are working well? thanks.

Response:

i’ll be vacationing in hampton beach new hampshire, and would appreciate advice on good spots for either stripers or smallies. what about the inlet and back waters at hampton beach or the mouth of the merrymack river at the mass border? what flies are working well? thanks.

Reel-Time has weekly fly fishing reports for the Merrimack River, and has recently been expanded to cover the NH and Maine Coast.  I write about the Merrimack and can tell you that the Merrimack has been doing well.  Olive/white clousers and Chartreuse/white clousers have been taking fish.  The URL’s in my sig. — Mark N. Cahill For E-mail remove the _Remove_This from the reply to address. http://www.geocities.com/Baja/3297/fishing.htm Mark Cahill’s Fishing New Engand -Daily Fishing News http://www.reel-time.com/ The Internet Journal of Saltwater Fly Fishing – Metropolitan Boston Regional Editor

Response:

Question:

Hi Group I realize the last Wednesday Chat had some problems. With help from this newsgroup (Joe Byrd) the folks at Fly Fish America have fixed-up their chat place with a thing called "Java" or something like that – I’m not as computer literate as I should be but struggling. So —— Let’s try another chat session on Wednesday evening at 6:00pm MST at http://www.FlyFishAmerica.com?  then click on the "Chat icon-bar." I hope to see my "on-line" friends there. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

Hi Group I realize the last Wednesday Chat had some problems. With help from this newsgroup (Joe Byrd) the folks at Fly Fish America have fixed-up their chat place with a thing called "Java" or something like that – I’m not as computer literate as I should be but struggling. So —— Let’s try another chat session on Wednesday evening at 6:00pm MST at http://www.FlyFishAmerica.com?  then click on the "Chat icon-bar." I Sorry, I made a mistake on the address, here it is

http://www.FlyFishAmerica.com/ — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

I’ll be there!!!! Joe

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Group I realize the last Wednesday Chat had some problems. With help from this newsgroup (Joe Byrd) the folks at Fly Fish America have fixed-up their chat place with a thing called "Java" or something like that – I’m not as computer literate as I should be but struggling. So —— Let’s try another chat session on Wednesday evening at 6:00pm MST at http://www.FlyFishAmerica.com?  then click on the "Chat icon-bar." I Sorry, I made a mistake on the address, here it is http://www.FlyFishAmerica.com/ — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Al, Here is the deal,  Tell me what 0600 MST is in relation to GMT, and I promise not to tell you what java is. Cheers Bruce….

Response:

Well, I can’t answer a lot of questions, but the difference between GMT and MST is 7 hours – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I realize the last Wednesday Chat had some problems. With help from this newsgroup (Joe Byrd) the folks at Fly Fish America have fixed-up their Here is the deal,  Tell me what 0600 MST is in relation to GMT, and I Bruce….

Response:

Hello all… Sorry for the troubles we had before but they are now behind us. I re-wrote the FlyFishAmerica.com chat area, it has been fixed, it supports a lot more users and is wicked fast. It does not require any downloading or special software and is based on SERVERside Java which does not even require a Java enabled browser. Bob Stewart http://www.flyfishamerica.com/chat/chat.html

Response:

Question:

Someone posted a really nice list of web sites for flyfishing within the last week, but I inadvertantly deleted it.  Could you be so kind as to re-post it?

Response:

Try http://www.eaglenet.com/PaxP/mstrs/fishing.html

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [deleted] This is a form of hunting, no more no less, with all of the qualities of hunting.  This is not golf. It is not a game. It involves an animal. You are sticking sharpened steel into an animals face. If this bothers you, then you might want to consider something else… God, Tim you sure the life of the party these days. Howdy Don, Just applying the "does he want to flyfish or just look like ‘a flyfisher’ test big guy… I, do NOT welcome ‘all’ newbies to the sport in some kind of "Barneyesque Lemming Hugs and Kisses" fashion.

        i couldn’t agree more.  in fact, there are quite a few "old boys" out there that could use a lot less time on the water in the carolina blue ridge. Maybe it’s because I don’t want to sell them anything.

        once again, right on the nose, timbo.  please see "orvis jeeps", "orvis trout schools", "orvis approved guides" for documentation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -TimW

Response:

He said I did not need any flys for now just practice with the pole. Sure…., put a fly to the line and practice in a bass water or whatever U like to catch. Best training there is, and who knows, U even migth catch something. I saw a martin bass rig for 49.95 in Bass Pro’s spring catalog.  Will this be a good learner set? Thanks John

Put a fly on the line when you practice and use a leader/tippet of about 9feet as this will alter the way your line will cast.  It does not cast properly without a fly and you will even notice a change when you use different weight flies.   Also, I agree with the other guy, go practice on some water, choose a place where there is not too much vegitation to get caught up in and don’t try to cast too far first off, accuracy is far more important when your starting out. Good luck and stick with it, once you get the hang of it you’ll never use a baitcaster again! Darren (New Zealand)

Response:

: I, do NOT welcome ‘all’ newbies to the sport in some kind of : "Barneyesque Lemming Hugs and Kisses" fashion. Allright!  I’m pretty sure this is our first Barney reference.  Way to go Tim. —

No,  I’ve made several Barney remarks…but, I do always keep in mind…                   "Everyone is someone elses Barney" XXXOOO’s TimW

Response:

I just took my first fly fishing weekend course. I liked it. I could see myself doing it better than I ever spin or bait fished. My instructor told me to get a 5/6 pole and weight forward line with a reel of some type.

Skip the WF line and go for a Double Taper instead……You won’t get the same distance but it’s much easier to learn to do other than the "standard" overhead cast…….It’s probably cheaper too…… He said I did not need any flys for now just practice with the pole.

Sure…., put a fly to the line and practice in a bass water or whatever U like to catch. Best training there is, and who knows, U even migth catch something. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I saw a martin bass rig for 49.95 in Bass Pro’s spring catalog.  Will this be a good learner set? Thanks John

Response:

Chief-petty-officer to the newbie – Boy, we need to tie that down, go to supply and get me a 100′ of shoreline. While you’re out pick up a bucket of relative bearing grease…

Oh, I think it got left on the signal bridge. Either there or in shaft alley #3.  Better check both places. kill -9 -1 | sort | init                         1965 IH Scout                         1908 Win 30-30                  

Question:

Can you help a friend of mine with suggestions of where to go dry fly fishing in the Crested Butte area during the July 4th holiday period.  He is interested in both guided and wadable non-guided time.  Cutthroats and rainbows would be perfect.    Bob Jameson,  Perkiomenville,PA

Response:

Can you help a friend of mine with suggestions of where to go dry fly fishing in the Crested Butte area during the July 4th holiday period.  He is interested in both guided and wadable non-guided time.  Cutthroats and rainbows would be perfect.    Bob Jameson,  Perkiomenville,PA

Check out the Rocky Mountain Flyfishing Center, they have very current info  http://www.xmission.com/~gastown/flyfishing/index.html I just checked and they have some good stuff on the Gunnison Basin. South of Crested Butte is Almont,  upstreasm of Almont (the Taylor River) is Taylor Reservoir.  for .4 miles from the damn is catch-release, some real hogs! Average 4.5 lbs! Also in the area is Spring Creek Reservoir and a multitude of streams. We have very high streams right now so best to call ahead: ALMONT Three Rivers Resort/Willowfly Anglers Box 339 Almont, CO 81210 (970) 641-1303 GUNNISON High Mountain Drifter 211 E. Tomichi (in the Amoco) Gunnison, CO 81230 (970) 641-4243 1-800-793-4243

Response:

Question:

I’m interested in the standards that are used in the competitive judging of flies.  If anyone could e-mail me a list of evaluative criteria for any specific competition, I’d greatly appreciate it.   Also, I’d like to hear any thoughts on the _bases_ of these criteria:  Do they ultimately reflect how well flies catch fish, or are they based on how well a fly catches the eye of the fisherman!? Thanks in advance for any observations you might have, whether e-mailed to me personally or posted here for discussion in the newsgroup. Rick Anderson

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I’m interested in the standards that are used in the competitive judging of flies.  If anyone could e-mail me a list of evaluative criteria for any specific competition, I’d greatly appreciate it.   Also, I’d like to hear any thoughts on the _bases_ of these criteria:  Do they ultimately reflect how well flies catch fish, or are they based on how well a fly catches the eye of the fisherman!? Thanks in advance for any observations you might have, whether e-mailed to me personally or posted here for discussion in the newsgroup. Rick Anderson

I have some experience on flytying competitions both as participant in the Canadian World Championship for salmon flies and others and as a member of the jury in the Mustad Scandinavian Open in 93 and 94. First of all: How well the fly catches fish can only be judged by the fish. In practice it would be impossible to measure how well a fly catches. Other parameters as changing conditions, skills of the fisherman, luck etc had to be averaged out. After years of testing a high number of the same fly by a lot of different people (who must not know exactly what fly they were using) one might be able to say that fly A is a better fishing fly than fly B. It is very important to distinguish between flies for fishing and competition flies. There are two types flytiers: Those who only want to crank out a number of fishing flies in shortest possible time and those who want to develop their flytying skills towards perfection. If you belong to the first category you must respect the "perfectionists" although we all agree that the fish does not care. Flytying competitions therefore have to be judged by people. In my opinion the general criteria can be divided into two groups: a) "Technical properties" and b) "Artistic content". Technical perfection is primary for a top fly. The most important aspects are: Small smooth wellshaped head, no visible thread were it should not, all materials well aligned, no wing splitting etc, symmetry, proportions, conformity to the given pattern (if applicable), balance between the different components, no "illegal tricks" (ex superglue in salmon fly wings, cutting of material which should end naturally etc). If the fly is self composed artistic content also plays a part as a secondary criterion. This may be use of new materials or known materials used in a special way. I do not regard creations molded in plastic or rubber as flies. The materials have to be attached to the hook by the use of a tying thread. The participants in a contest will of course want to know how their fly was judged. In the Canadian WC we used to get a written judgement of the flies to be able to improve what was wrong. When this practice was ended I stopped participating, but they may have reintroduced this feedback. In the Mustad championship we tried to give some comments last year. This year I was not in the jury due to a one year stay in the US. I heard that the overall level in the salmon classes were not too impressive this year. The dry fly and nymph classes were much harder to judge. Often you really have to look very close to find a tiny flaw. In some competitions they have a formalized table for judging the flies. The points for each part of the fly is added and compared afterwards to get the ranking. This may or may not be more fair than throwing out the worst flies until ten are left and then sorting the last ten to get ranking among the ten best. We have found the last method to work well in the Mustad Championship. The form/points for each part-method have been suggested. The feedback to the participants would be better, but the time it would take to judge 500 flies in 7 classes would increase conciderably mainly due to filling out the forms. Personally I am not sure that this would improve the quality of the judgement. The ideas expressed here are mine and mine alone and I do not speak for the other members of the jury. This years Mustad Scandinavian open is closed and all participating flies will be displayed at the Flyfishing Days June 17-18, 1995,at the Norwegian Forestry Museum in Elverum, Norway. Edvard Bergene Norwegian visiting scientist at UW Madison

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