Question:

Nifty little 5 oz flask packadged with bottles of Cutty Sark for holiday giving.  Keep the flask, slap a bow on the Cutty Sark and give it to your brother-in-law.  Or keep the Cutty Sark and use it to cut Carolan’s Irish Creme 50/50 (that stuffs too sweet and sticky to drink by itself, but no use adding the good stuff to it).  Or use the Cutty Sark to clean your pipe collection. Flask is stainless steel with a charcoal finish, hinged cap keeper, lovingly hand-crafted in far-off and exotic China. The healthful benefits of having a wee nip to keep away the dew while flyfishing cannot be overstressed, and of course, it is unethical to bring a fine fish to hand without toasting his merry health afterwards. And, as is well known, purported "flyfishermen" who drink beer, are actually closet bait-fisherman who are afraid to touch worms. Anyway, nice little flask, it would look really fine with some MacCallan or Famous Grouse in it. Timothy Juvenal

Response:

And, as is well known, purported "flyfishermen" who drink beer, are actually closet bait-fisherman who are afraid to touch worms.

        good post.  many will agree. wayno, courageous even though ominous rumblings are heard from the direction of chambana, illiniville…

Response:

And, as is well known, purported "flyfishermen" who drink beer, are actually closet bait-fisherman who are afraid to touch worms. good post.  many will agree. wayno, courageous even though ominous rumblings are heard from the direction of chambana, illiniville…

Well, here’s one beer drinking flyfisher who ain’t afeared to touch worms. Had a lot of fun at a couple of ROFFian claves feeding them to scotch drinkers who may have had one glass too many.        :) Wolfgang no pictures please!

Response:

"Wolfgang"  wrote … Well, here’s one beer drinking flyfisher who ain’t afeared to touch worms. Had a lot of fun at a couple of ROFFian claves feeding them to scotch drinkers who may have had one glass too many.        :)

Ahh, it seems beer has indeed impaired your thinking: 1.  No such thing as too much Scotch. 2.  Tequilla drinkers are the ones you have to watch out for around the worms.  And of course, watch out for those Saki drinkers around cut bait. 8^)

Timothy Juvenal

Response:

Question:

Good post snipped. I’m definitely no streamer expert but many writers have commented that the eyes on a streamer are a trigger for the fish. Gary LaFontaine even ties a streamer with the eyes at the rear of the fly (near the hook bend) to help eliminate all the missed strikes. Willi

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good post snipped. I’m definitely no streamer expert but many writers have commented that the eyes on a streamer are a trigger for the fish. Gary LaFontaine even ties a streamer with the eyes at the rear of the fly (near the hook bend) to help eliminate all the missed strikes. Willi

That’s the reason for the Sedge Hook Perch.  Instead of moving the eyes back, I’m moving the hook point forward. Peter

Response:

The first Sedge Hook Perch is on ABPF.  Not a great first effort and I wasn’t able to get any olive cafltail – used bucktail instead so the profile is not what I hoped, but you can get the idea.  Vertical bars are done with black magic marker. Peter

Response:

<< There are some designs that put the hook much closer to the head of the streamer. Gartside does it with his marabou soft hackles, others as well use shorter shank hooks with streamer materials extending far past bend. This could be done, I suppose, as long as the materials don’t foul around the gape of hook. <<  Tom Littleton This is one of the virtues of the Lefty’s Deceiver and Kreh and Clouser’s Half & Half.  Lefty Kreh also writes that big fish are head hunters. GKT

Response:

<< There are some designs that put the hook much closer to the head of the streamer. Gartside does it with his marabou soft hackles, others as well use shorter shank hooks with streamer materials extending far past bend. This could be done, I suppose, as long as the materials don’t foul around the gape of hook. <<  Tom Littleton This is one of the virtues of the Lefty’s Deceiver and Kreh and Clouser’s Half & Half.  Lefty Kreh also writes that big fish are head hunters. GKT

Saltwater patterns have used this approach for years as the fish are known headhunters, but apart from clousers, there aren’t many freshwater versions.  Though I didn’t start out the Sedge Hook Perch with a particular saltwater fly in mind, it certainly did end up resembling one.   Since I can’t make much use of it till next year, if anybody would like to try a couple, email me your snail mail and I’ll send them off. In return, you have to post your results. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Peter, That is a good looking fly you posted on ABPF. I wish more people would post flies on ABPF. Reading a description of a fly just doesn’t cut it. I think the streamer tied on a short shanked hook has a better "look" and it probably would have better action. What do you use for eyes? Willi

Response:

: That is a good looking fly you posted on ABPF. I wish more people would : post flies on ABPF. Reading a description of a fly just doesn’t cut it. Many, maybe even most, of us don’t get ABPF… JonCook.

Here ya go Jon. http://www.ezflyfish.com/perstreamfly.html Peter has graciously allowed for this information to be posted at ez. Thanks Peter…. –Walt — Walter G. Winter Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://users.boone.net/wgw/brbg.html

Response:

Peter, That is a good looking fly you posted on ABPF. I wish more people would post flies on ABPF. Reading a description of a fly just doesn’t cut it. I think the streamer tied on a short shanked hook has a better "look" and it probably would have better action. What do you use for eyes? Willi

They’re on a peel and stick sheet.  I cover them with flex cement afterward or they’d just drop off. Peter

Response:

: That is a good looking fly you posted on ABPF. I wish more people would : post flies on ABPF. Reading a description of a fly just doesn’t cut it. Many, maybe even most, of us don’t get ABPF…

So ask your university sysop to add it. ‘Tain’t no big thang… /daytripper

Response:

Many, maybe even most, of us don’t get ABPF… So ask your university sysop to add it. ‘Tain’t no big thang…

Spoken like a man who’s never been a university sysop. — Ken Fortenberry- never got ABPF

Response:

Many, maybe even most, of us don’t get ABPF… So ask your university sysop to add it. ‘Tain’t no big thang… Spoken like a man who’s never been a university sysop.

Well, true, I was never a sysop in college, and my college days preceded Usenet anyway (360/20 programmer "back in the days" when real computers ran on air)… But the "no big thang" was referring to the *asking*. As we both know the actual *doing* is trivial…even for a university sysop. /daytripper (Even those that call central Illinois "Home" ;^)

Response:

Well, true, I was never a sysop in college, and my college days preceded Usenet anyway (360/20 programmer "back in the days" when real computers ran on air)…

Ah yes, those were the days. We had one of the few 360/44’s, kind of a RISC precursor I suppose, without the complete instruction set so math operations were faster. We had a 1620 prior to that and a ‘hands on’ 1130 w/8K RAM<g. — Charlie…

Response:

http://www.ezflyfish.com/perstreamfly.html

Do most of you who post pics of flies use digital cameras?  If so, do they have built-in macros or did you have to do something else to get close-up shots? Mu

Response:

http://www.ezflyfish.com/perstreamfly.html Do most of you who post pics of flies use digital cameras?  If so, do they have built-in macros or did you have to do something else to get close-up shots?

"long"? I use an Oly C2020Z which has built-in macro capability. However, I usually top the lens off with a macro multiplier (I have a 2X and a 4X) to really fill the frame and make the most of the CCD (rather than crop down the shot and lose pixels). I think I can speak for "Vern" and Paul G wrt your questions: they both shoot using C2020Z’s , but I’m pretty sure they haven’t bought the macro multipliers yet. My matched brace of Nikkormats, an F5, and a Minolta (all SLRs) are all feeling very lonely and neglected these days… /daytripper ("Totally Digital"  ;^)

Response:

http://www.ezflyfish.com/perstreamfly.html Do most of you who post pics of flies use digital cameras?  If so, do they have built-in macros or did you have to do something else to get close-up shots? Mu

I just stick ‘em in my scanner, squish the buggers then crop ‘em. Looks like hell but people know they’re flies. Peter the always helpful

Response:

Olympus 2020, does macros just fine without any add on’s Vern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.ezflyfish.com/perstreamfly.html Do most of you who post pics of flies use digital cameras?  If so, do they have built-in macros or did you have to do something else to get close-up shots? Mu

Response:

http://www.ezflyfish.com/perstreamfly.html Do most of you who post pics of flies use digital cameras?  If so, do they have built-in macros or did you have to do something else to get close-up shots? Mu

Mu, while I haven’t taken any photos of flies yet, I have taken a ton of pics of small desert flowers.   Some of them will fit on a dime with a lot  room left over.  The decision to use macro is a personal one depending on how you want the subject to look.  I can get the lens to within about 1/4 inch without macro.  I advise a tripod for macro and telephoto.   Camera?  Sony Mavica FD-91.  Macro ability plus a bunch more including interchangable lenses and filters. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonyfd91/  Lemme know and I can send some examples. — All fishermen are liars ‘cept you n me, and I’m starting to have doubts about you! www.fishticker.com

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My matched brace of Nikkormats,

        tripper:  what flavor nikkormat do you have?  are you interested in getting shut of one of them? wayno the digital anti-christ

Response:

The mystery has finally been solved – and on the last day of the season.  Anyway  . .

Great report snipped for brevity. Peter, Very interesting info. Some observations from fishing for Lake Trout and Landlocks in a stillwater that mesh with your obsrvations: About thirty five years ago, I spent some time fishing for Lakers and Landlocks in the local reservoir. The hot method at the time was still or drift fishing with large shiners for bait. the predominant forage fish were Smelt and Yellow Perch. I had a number of hits, but very few hookups the first few times out, and often, when I got a hit, the bait would still be on the hook, dazed but alive. I mentioned this to a local guy who had been catching a lot of fish, and he told me it was very important not to set the hook at the strike, but to wait until the fish began to run with the bait. He said that Lakers and Landlocks often made a pass  and struck a baitfish, and then turned and picked it up. Once I started following his advice I began taking Lakers in the four to six pound range, and Landlocks in the two to four pound range regularly. Seems to be quite similar to your experience with the Browns. Funny thing is that I have also caught Lakers and Landlocks using streamers in the river that drains the reservoir, (they escape over the spillway in high water), and they don’t exhibit the same behavior there. They just grab the streamer and turn. Go figure.{:-) George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

The mystery has finally been solved – and on the last day of the season.  Anyway  . . Last week I post up some stuff about streamer fishing for browns on the Grand and having something like 50 hits and only landing about half-a-dozen.  I had been using a green ghost which is a bit perch-like and perch have been getting washed through the dam into the river during high water periods.  So I tied up two perch flies, one based on a 1/0 Rangley hook (I posted the recipe here and on ROFFT and the image on ABPF), the other on a 4X #6 Diiachi.  The 1/0 used float foam to give it some buoyancy while the other had a small strip of lead added. To try and bring some order to the process, I decided to track all happenings over one hour starting at 2:30 pm.  I had decided to use the #6 for half an hour and then the 1/0 but events overtook that plan. At the access point, a small island divides the channel creating a smallish pool and seam on the south side and a chute emptying into a larger, slower pool on the north side.  Everyone tromps through the southside pool so I never expect much there; one fish at best.  Right at the water’s edge, I begin fishing the #6, casting directly across current and stripping back in a "U".  Within ten minutes I have six hits and three landed – but here’s where the interesting shit happens. One fish has taken the #6 perch directly from the rear and hooked up mid lower jaw.  The other two were foul hooked in the face above the upper jaw.  The direction of the hookup indicates that they turned on the fly and hit it broadside while facing downstream.  They were hooked up on the far side of their face, indicating that they had aimed for the head of the fly.  It all made sense.  Perch are a spiny rayed fish so trout must have ingrained behaviour to aim for the head so that they can swallow head first and smooth down the dorsal spines. This explains why I had so many misses and lost fish last week. Here’s all the poop: Recorded results for one hour. Presentation was directly across stream with a "U" retrieve and a 3" to 4" strip.  (a slower presentation than last week – 12" strip) Total casts – 100 to 120 Total hits – 21 Total hooked – 12 Total landed – 9 Total lost -3 Total foul hooked – 5 (4 in the face and 1 behind the head) Average size of fish – 9" Results by fly:         # 6  Perch – 6 hits, 3 hooked, 3 landed, 2 foul hooked         1/0 Perch – 5 hits, 0 hooked, 0 landed, 0 foul hooked         #6 g. ghost – 10 hits, 9 hooked, 6 landed, 3 foul hooked In deeper, faster water, 2 browns took the fly broadside while facing downstream and one took from the rear.  In shallower, slower water 5 of the 6 browns landed took the fly broadside facing upstream (the 6th faced down.)   After I brought my third fish to hand, I dropped it and grabbed the tippet.  The knot parted and away swam my only #6 perch.  I tied on the 1/0 and tried my luck in the slower northside pool but 5 hits only.  Crossing back to the south side of the island, I began working the tailout down about 200 yards to the end of Cedar Run with what was left of my Green Ghost.  After the end of the hour, I picked up one more small one and then hooked and landed a nice 15" brown. Unfortunately, it was also fouled; this time under the jaw.  After the 15" fish, I changed presentation to a classsic quartering downstream approach and did not get a single hit.   After changing back, I landed another small one.  After a meal break, I picked up one 16" brown on a joe’s smelt.  Once I got back on the water I tried a black nosed dace (one of Charlie’s) and a joe’s smelt to see if the browns would hit them differently.  These being representations of soft rayed fish and having obvious strike zones with their red tails, I was curious if they performed better,  Total was 6 hits, 4 hookups, 1 landed (the 16" one.)  Not really enough action to draw any conclusions. Results on first misses: – Mindful of Mike’s advice, I tried to remember to drop in some slack after a miss.  I had no results on the 1/0 despite one solid hit from a larger fish.  On the green ghost, I had one persistant small guy whack it three times in succession without a hookup and missed another small one on the second hit.  The 16" was classic.  He hit and missed, I dropped the smelt.  he did nothing, then I made one strip and he nailed it directly from the rear.  I hooked him up mid lower jaw. There’s no doubt in my mind that these browns were headhunting the perch flies.  From now on, I’ll be tying my perch flies on short shanked, heavy wire hooks (like a Mustad 3906B) or on sedge hooks that have a small, straight shank.  Too bad I won’t get to try them on the browns to the end of April 2001.  I’ll tie some up tomorrow afternoon and post a binary on ABPF. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

addendum: Some conclusion now that I’ve had some more time to digest the results and read other peoples’ comments. The method of attack for a brown is variable and they choose their method based on prey species and relative size (them vs. the prey.) and other variables like temperature, water clarity, etc. Some conculsions: When I fish my mini streamers, I have a 40% to 50% hookup rate of which I probably land 4 out of 5.  Foul hookups are very rare and the majority of hookups are mid lower jaw with a few mid upper jaw. Corner of jaw hookups are rare.  This indicates that the browns are tail chasing the streamer and taking it on the first hit.  The missed strikes can be attributed to short takes on the fast moving, tiny streamer. A few weeks back, I foul hooked another 15" brown under the jaw when using a #4 streamer.  The pattern seems to be – small fish take from below, probably looking for a gill shot, whil the larger fish seem to take from slightly above, probably turning into the prey at the head. Not all fish are looking for a disabling shot, in the Attack-Maime-Return mode as some seem to have hookups that appear to come from an attempt to seize the prey.  If they are in the mood to strike and drop, then it’s important to have a spongy, neutral buoyant fly with a small hook to avoid jaw to steel contact.  The Sedge Hook Perch should fit this bill.  The white calftail belly and red gill slash will form a target for the smaller fish. The large head and eyes work for the larger ones.  Since the sedge hook is small and light, and the bulk of the fly is made up of semi-buoyant hair, it should react well when tension is released after a strike.   Liberal use of flex cement over the front of the fly will also aid buoyancy and provide a spongy feel to the attacking fish.  Once released, the fly should drift more naturally than a weighted or big hook fly.  As most of the profile of the fly is simply hair, then it should also move more naturally than a stiff, long shanked fly. Since my season is now closed, maybe somebody else could give this fly a shot. (off to buy some vino for SWMBO and some olive calftail so I can complete the prototype.) Peter Peter

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What a great discussion….and some people wonder why we come here! This whole streamer thing has been puzzling me for years. Getting hits versus hookups,etc. There have been some great observations in this discussion. My feeble brain is spinning. perhaps it would be worthwhile tying up some "reversed" streamers, That is to say, streamers with the heads at the bend of the hook. How would such a streamer be fished such that the drift would look right? Angle of pull from rod would seem to give it a tailward oriented motion. There are some designs that put the hook much closer to the head of the streamer. Gartside does it with his marabou soft hackles, others as well use shorter shank hooks with streamer materials extending far past bend. This could be done, I suppose, as long as the materials don’t foul around the gape of hook. I may be trying a few ideas out as we head into the fall season here in PA and post if any intelligent thought or observation arise. Thanks again for the discussion!                            Tom Littleton

Tom Here’s the perch fly I’m planning for next year.  It can be done in any colours for any bait fish – I bet a baby brown would be perfect for PA. Sedge Hook Perch Hook – Kamasan # 8 Sedge or similar Thread – 3/0 Olive Uni-thread Tinsel – gold Flashaboo Belly – white calftail Throat – red Uni-floss Underwing – chartreuse bucktail Wing – Olive calftail Overwing – three strands of thick peacock herl Eyes – stick-on black on gold Tying instructions: All of the material will be tied on the short, straight section of the sedge hook shank.  Tie on a bed of thread.  Do not worry about building up too much bulk as we want a big head.  Tie in three strands of flashaboo doubled and trimmed to length.  Wrap thread over flashaboo to the end of the shank.  Invert hook and tie in the white calftail as a belly.  I’m using calftail instead of bucktail as it’s bulkier and stiffer, producing the deep perch profile.  Then wrap in the red floss at the rear of the shank over the calftail to a width of about 1/8".  This represents a gill flare on a frightened fish.  Then in turn, wrap in the bucktail close to the eye and the length of the shank, followed by the olive calftail then the herl.  Build up the head with thread the full length of the shank and stick on the eyes. Leave about 1/16" of the red floss showing at the back.  Then coat liberally with head cement at least to 1/8" beyond the head. Later on today when I get finished of the chores, (SWMBO is a slave driver)  I’ll tie up one and post it to ABPF. Peter

Response:

What a great discussion….and some people wonder why we come here! This whole streamer thing has been puzzling me for years. Getting hits versus hookups,etc. There have been some great observations in this discussion. My feeble brain is spinning. perhaps it would be worthwhile tying up some "reversed" streamers, That is to say, streamers with the heads at the bend of the hook.

How would such a streamer be fished such that the drift would look right? Angle of pull from rod would seem to give it a tailward oriented motion. There are some designs that put the hook much closer to the head of the streamer. Gartside does it with his marabou soft hackles, others as well use shorter shank hooks with streamer materials extending far past bend. This could be done, I suppose, as long as the materials don’t foul around the gape of hook. I may be trying a few ideas out as we head into the fall season here in PA and post if any intelligent thought or observation arise. Thanks again for the discussion!                             Tom Littleton

Response:

Great report. Thanks for the info.  Seems it could be a combination of things. Trout taking spiny rayed fish head first, and the "attack maim and wait, and then hit again" behaviour we already discussed. Bullheads are also "spiny rayed", and I already explained the behaviour of trout, in my experience,  in this case.   I assume that my original idea was correct, and the trout attack the fish to damage it, and then come back to take the fish head first,  Seems very reasonable. Just a daft idea, but perhaps it would be worthwhile tying up some "reversed" streamers, That is to say, streamers with the heads at the bend of the hook. This practice is common with lightweight pirks, they are fished "the wrong way round", the fish take on the drop, as the pirk is apparently diving head first for the bottom. I have no idea how this might sensibly be realised, but I will have a think about it. My running water season is finished for this year, so I will not have a chance to try any of this for a while, But very interesting, and food for thought. TL MC — "If you have tried everything you know, and nothing works, then perhaps it is time to accept that you don

Question:

    (snip)     If you fish many lager streams or lakes you will want a 9 foot rod. Where can I find these lakes and streams of lager? Charlie, drooling

Response:

   (snip)    If you fish many lager streams or lakes you will want a 9 foot rod. Where can I find these lakes and streams of lager?

If you find a lake of lager you’ll *think* you have a 9′ rod no matter what size it is<g. — Charlie…

Response:

   If you fish many lager streams or lakes you will want a 9 foot rod. Where can I find these lakes and streams of lager?

I’d offer to show you a few, except that someone in your office might call that an "improper influence" Besides, they’re actually all streams of India pale ales. Except for one that’s gotta be Beamish Stout Ale. Opt out == cop-out. What’s so hard to understand?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bill Kiene writes: Hi Tony, Out here in northern California, we sell more 9 foot rods than anything else. If you do much stream fishing, you might like an 8′ 6" rod. If you fish many lager streams or lakes you will want a 9 foot rod. Rods sales are falling off for the long rods of the 80s and 90s. We use to sell way more 9′6" and 10′ rods, but I think they were not as much fun to fish as the shorter rods. Does the difference in length make that much difference? (In fly-fishing, of course!)  I’m looking at Orvis’ Silver Label 5 wt. Checked them both out at an Orvis store.  The 8′ 6" seemed more managable, but 6" shouldn’t make that much of a difference. Tony

George Gehrke take note:  Notice how Bill Kiene answered the question, gave his opinion and advice, and did so without mentioning his fly fishing business or any other commercial stuff.  And he doesn’t expect to get paid for it. Dave L.

Response:

Does the difference in length make that much difference? (In fly-fishing, of course!)  I’m looking at Orvis’ Silver Label 5 wt. Checked them both out at an Orvis store.  The 8′ 6" seemed more managable, but 6" shouldn’t make that much of a difference. Tony

Response:

In actual fact that 6" may make a very great deal of difference in various circumstances.  If you are casting from high undergrowth, from a float tube, or you need the extra length to manipulate line, high sticking nymphs in riffles and pools, etc etc.   Even under more or less normal circumstances the longer rod will enable you to cast more easily.  If you are fishing small overgrown streams for instance, where you can not wade to avoid trees and bushes, then a shorter rod is usually more convenient. But in that case I would tend to use something in the 7

Question:

‘nospam’ in my address.   We are willing to give a

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip If we’re going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup. John, Creating rec.boats.paddling.whitewater and leaving "everyone else" in R.B.P is probably a more viable solution. 1) It’s less work than creating 3 new groups

Not really. All three groups could be proposed in the same RFD. 2) It’s less exclusive: ww postys would go to R.B.P.W and EVERYTHING else would go to R.B.P

The primary reason that I suggested using .misc is that a strong precedent has been set using this convention and it would likely be backed by Tale (David Lawrence) and other new.group gurus. 3) The volumes would be "balanced" between the groups 4) There wouldn’t be any arguments about where Sea Kayaks, S-O-T’s, etc would go

per my suggestion, anything that was ambiguous would go into r.b.p.misc. r.b.p. would only exist as a hierarchy, but not as a group.   This has been done many times before. IMHO, The creation of a WW-only group is the "best" solution to this issue.

I agree, but if a change is going to be made, following conventional usenet naming conventions would be very advantagous as far as getting support form outside the paddling newsgroups. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

Response:

John, Your proposal is making excellent sense. Dan Amerman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip If we’re going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup. John, Creating rec.boats.paddling.whitewater and leaving "everyone else" in R.B.P is probably a more viable solution. 1) It’s less work than creating 3 new groups Not really. All three groups could be proposed in the same RFD. 2) It’s less exclusive: ww postys would go to R.B.P.W and EVERYTHING else would go to R.B.P The primary reason that I suggested using .misc is that a strong precedent has been set using this convention and it would likely be backed by Tale (David Lawrence) and other new.group gurus. 3) The volumes would be "balanced" between the groups 4) There wouldn’t be any arguments about where Sea Kayaks, S-O-T’s, etc would go per my suggestion, anything that was ambiguous would go into r.b.p.misc. r.b.p. would only exist as a hierarchy, but not as a group.   This has been done many times before. IMHO, The creation of a WW-only group is the "best" solution to this issue. I agree, but if a change is going to be made, following conventional usenet naming conventions would be very advantagous as far as getting support form outside the paddling newsgroups. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip If we’re going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup.

John, Creating rec.boats.paddling.whitewater and leaving "everyone else" in R.B.P is probably a more viable solution. 1) It’s less work than creating 3 new groups 2) It’s less exclusive: ww postys would go to R.B.P.W and EVERYTHING else would go to R.B.P 3) The volumes would be "balanced" between the groups 4) There wouldn’t be any arguments about where Sea Kayaks, S-O-T’s, etc would go IMHO, The creation of a WW-only group is the "best" solution to this issue.

Response:

If we’re going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup.

John, thank you for all the assistance you have been, and will continue to be in these discussions. Your long experience with these matters shows through, as does your wisdom. They are appreciated, even if we don’t necessarily agree. — Wes — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.

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Gregg, I am just curious, how long does it take you to scan the thread titles?

Seconds. "Hooked on Phonics" changed my life. Try it.

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I have to disagree with the proposal to split this group, <snip                    …[I}  would miss many of 'characters' crochets by having to go back and forth between NG's. ...

In my experience, the interesting people continue to post to both groups (with some few exceptions.) It is easy enough to filter *for* these interesting people in your less-read group and just get headers for a quick scan of everything else. Mark me down for a rational split;   r.b.paddle.whitewater and optionally:  r.b.paddle.flatwater  r.b.paddle.misc (with r.b.paddle becoming a hierarchy-only) --   --Pete http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - John, Creating rec.boats.paddling.whitewater and leaving "everyone else" in R.B.P is probably a more viable solution. 1) It's less work than creating 3 new groups 2) It's less exclusive: ww postys would go to R.B.P.W and EVERYTHING else would go to R.B.P 3) The volumes would be "balanced" between the groups 4) There wouldn't be any arguments about where Sea Kayaks, S-O-T's, etc would go IMHO, The creation of a WW-only group is the "best" solution to this issue.

There is only one problem with this approach:  it won't work.  Since most of the whitewater folks don't mind the group as it is, they aren't going to put up the effort to "move" to a new group.  This is compounded by the folks who post only once every few months; they will continue to post to RBP for some time to come.  After this happens, WW people will crosspost to both groups (RBP and RBPW) to make sure that their messages get out to the intended audience. IMO, the only way that you will get some solitude is to create a new group. That way, you will leave the crowd behind (at least for a while). -- Steve Culy Visual Numerics, Inc.

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I have to disagree with the proposal to split this group, although I haven't kayaked in years, I do marathon canoe racing, flatwater to III trips and would love to do more sea kayaking.  I enjoy this group as it is, with the hot shot rodeo'ers and the skin boaters and would miss many of 'characters' crochets by having to go back and forth between NG's.  That is if can get the new NG.  I have never felt intimidated about posting marathon stuff here and have gotten some interesting and unexpected replies.  Even the blather about religion makes me think of compfire discussions and Jack Daniels.  I fear that some of the pressure to split is "sour grapes."                 Don, an RBP 'bobber'

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I encourage all interested parties to brainstorm for a renaming that would CORRECTLY describe the split.  An example might be rec.boats.paddle.whitewater rec.boats.paddle.flatwater or flatwater+touring or flatwater+tripping

Would the word  "flatwater" exclude canoe trips involving rapids?  I hope not. Would the word "touring" or "tripping" exclude flatwater paddlers who aren't into trips? Again, I hope not. Where do tripping rafters fit in? I agree that rec.boats.paddle.whitewater is a good name for paddlers who play in whitewater.  Is this likely though? Finally, let me say that I intend no criticism of Bob Solak. I think he's done a great thing by stepping up and actually doing the right thing, an RFD,

Yes. Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - I encourage all interested parties to brainstorm for a renaming that would CORRECTLY describe the split.  An example might be rec.boats.paddle.whitewater rec.boats.paddle.flatwater or flatwater+touring or flatwater+tripping Would the word  "flatwater" exclude canoe trips involving rapids?  I hope not. Would the word "touring" or "tripping" exclude flatwater paddlers who aren't into trips? Again, I hope not. Where do tripping rafters fit in? I agree that rec.boats.paddle.whitewater is a good name for paddlers who play in whitewater.  Is this likely though?

Good points. Also, where would surf boats fit in? The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks? If there are small special interest segments, the appropriate thing is to run a mailing list to meet those people needs. If you split the group roughly equally, all you are doing is saving, what, 10 of those 20 seconds that it took to scan thread titles? Again, this is just my opinion, but I don't think its worth it, in fact Ii fear it might actually be counter-productive when the inevitable cross postings start to occur leaving even more total thread titles to scan thru. regards, Njall regards, Njall

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The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds.

And how many threads were there for you to scan through? Maybe it isn't a problem for you, but we keep having paddlers say that they are leaving this newsgroup because of the volume of posts that don't interest them.  There's a problem somewhere or this wouldn't happen. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks? If there are small special interest segments, the appropriate thing is to run a mailing list to meet those people needs.

I've been part of a few mailing lists.  I find them less convenient & less spontaneous than newsgroups.  Also, they aren't easily found by potential new members.  If a mailing list is okay with you, why not a new newsgroup? If you split the group roughly equally, all you are doing is saving, what, 10 of those 20 seconds that it took to scan thread titles? Again, this is just my opinion, but I don't think its worth it, in fact Ii fear it might actually be counter-productive when the inevitable cross postings start to occur leaving even more total thread titles to scan thru.

So you go from 20 to 30 or 40 seconds?  It will only affect those who want to read both groups, such as myself.  It will be much better for people with interest in only one group. Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html

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I've been part of a few mailing lists.  I find them less convenient & less spontaneous than newsgroups.  Also, they aren't easily found by potential new members.  If a mailing list is okay with you, why not a new newsgroup?

Why? Because a mailing list, by nature, is intended to service a very small, very well defined topic group. A small mailing list would not create the cross-posting problems that 2 roughly equal in size and ILL-DEFINED newsgroups would. If you split the group roughly equally, all you are doing is saving, what, 10 of those 20 seconds that it took to scan thread titles? Again, this is just my opinion, but I don't think its worth it, in fact Ii fear it might actually be counter-productive when the inevitable cross postings start to occur leaving even more total thread titles to scan thru. So you go from 20 to 30 or 40 seconds?  It will only affect those who want to read both groups, such as myself.  It will be much better for people with interest in only one group.

Lloyd, thanks for acknowledging that due to cross-postings reading 2 newsgroups could take longer than reading the current rbp. One thing you didn't respond to though was my question, "Where would surf boating go?". It's an example of how ill-defined the proposed group is. Also, as a sea kayaker, i guarantee you that new people will think rec.boats.canoe is  NOT their newsgroup. Also, i notice that no one metions using kill files to screen title threads. Perhaps the real problem is that people need better newsreader software. If one filtered for about 5 river names, 5 boat brands and about 6 people's names I think about 85% of the whitewater posts could be screened out. regards, Njall

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - I agree that rec.boats.paddle.whitewater is a good name for paddlers who play in whitewater.  Is this likely though? Lloyd, what do you think about REC.BOATS.PADDLE.NON-WHITEWATER While I like the idea of the ww folks moving to a group called rec.boats.paddle.whitewater better, I agree that this is highly unlikely. Seems to me that the NON-WW name would accomplish what we need, it would be self descriptive, clear and understandable.

One of the best ways to go about coming up with a name for a new newsgroup proposal is to look at the precedents that have already been set. One of conventions you'll find that is commonly used is the creation of a "misc" group.  For example, for basketball discussions there are: rec.sport.basketball.misc rec.sport.basketball.pro rec.sport.basketball.college The "pro" group is for discussion of professional teams, "college" for college teams and players, and "misc" for everything else. The rec.skating hierarchy is set up similarly. It has: rec.sport.skating.misc rec.sport.skating.roller rec.sport.skating.racing rec.sport.skating.ice.recreational rec.sport.skating.ice.figure rec.sport.skating.figure The skating groups are actually similar in structure to how paddling groups could be.  Both involve different types of equipment (ice, roller, inline) as well as different styles (racing, figure, recreational) and could use a catch all group (misc) for things that don't fit into a more strictly defined box. The rec.boats.canoeing proposal follows a structure more like the rec.outdoors.fishing fiasco.   At one time there wasn't a newsgroup devoted to fishing and alt.fishing was created.  A year or so later someone had the bright idea to create a fishing group in the the rec hierarchy and chose rec.outdoors.fishing as it's title. For many years the only group in the rec.outdoors hierarchy were the fishing groups and there was no corresponding rec.indoors group.  Groups like rec.climbing, rec.kites, rec.scuba, rec.skydiving; all recreational activites that take place in outdoors never made it into the rec.outdoors hierarchy. A few years ago I wrote and initiated an RFD for rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying.  Even though the act of tying flies doesn't typically take place in the outdoors I was more or less forced to put it under rec.outdoors.fishing.fly because that's where all of the flyfishing discussion took place. If we're going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email - Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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So you go from 20 to 30 or 40 seconds?  It will only affect those who want to read both groups, such as myself.  It will be much better for people with interest in only one group. Lloyd, thanks for acknowledging that due to cross-postings reading 2 newsgroups could take longer than reading the current rbp.

If your newsreader is compliant to standard this is not true.  When an article is crossposted to more then one newsgroup it should only appear in the first one that you read if your newsreader is written correctly.  If you're seeing an article that has been crossposted in both groups twice there's something wrong with your newsreader. I don't think correctly crossposted articles is the problem though.  The problem is articles which are posted to the two different groups separately. The most frequent postings of these types are article which are off-topic for *both* groups (i.e. make money fast postings, commercial solicitations). If I am reading two separate groups instead of one it means I have to delete inappropriately posted articles twice. One of the other problems with crossposting is thread drift.  It often doesn't take more then a couple of responses from a thread that might have been appropriate in two separate groups to drift to a topic that is only appropriate in one.   One thing you didn't respond to though was my question, "Where would surf boating go?". It's an example of how ill-defined the proposed group is. Also, as a sea kayaker, i guarantee you that new people will think rec.boats.canoe is  NOT their newsgroup. Also, i notice that no one metions using kill files to screen title threads. Perhaps the real problem is that people need better newsreader software. If one filtered for about 5 river names, 5 boat brands and about 6 people's names I think about 85% of the whitewater posts could be screened out. regards, Njall

John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email - Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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I have a good isp? Woah! That's the first time anyone has said that to me.

Compared to mine. Mine misses about 75% of RBP posts. It is HELL to follow a discussion like that. You can complain about AOL -- hey, it's got to be better than that! But, the nearest place I can get to AOL is still a long-distance call for me. -- Wes -- Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.

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If a mailing list is okay with you, why not a new newsgroup? Because a newsgroup is about 100 times as resource intensive as a mailing list.

Did that whole discussion, sounds totally facetious to me. Does all rbp equal one gif? Also it was being used as an excuse to silence people. It was a lame and ugly thread.  Also, we keep getting posts that say "I left because of too many posts" which is sort like saying "nobody here but us chickens!" It seems like the people that have "left" are the ones reading the most intently! The people that *have* left (like Heimer) are the ones tired of the whining and complaining. There is something very very suspicious going on with the "I left" posts, and it certainly seems to have raised doubts in the minds of the many people who respond "How long does it really take to read the subjects?" gregg

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Good points. Also, where would surf boats fit in? The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks? If there You're lucky. You have a decent ISP. I have to use Talkways, because I have a lousy one, but it's the only one available through local dialup. It takes me an hour or more to go through RBP, post by post, because trying to do it by message headers is even slower. Since this is winter and I hate TV and the water is too hard for paddling, it doesn't matter, but as soon as things warm up a bit, I often won't have the time to dink around going through post after post, looking for the perhaps five percent that interest me. -- Wes

I have a good isp? Woah! That's the first time anyone has said that to me. regards, Njall

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Also, we keep getting posts that say "I left because of too many posts" which is sort like saying "nobody here but us chickens!" It seems like the people that have "left" are the ones reading the most intently!

Um, Gregg, if they are reading all the posts then they must enjoy reading all the posts so volume isn't a problem. Volume is a problem when people are reading relatively FEW posts compared to the total. Think about it. The people that *have* left (like Heimer) are the ones tired of the whining and complaining.

Trust me, there will be plenty of whining and complaining in any new/split groups as well. So, that's irrelevant. There is something very very suspicious going on with the "I left" posts, and it certainly seems to have raised doubts in the minds of the many people who respond "How long does it really take to read the subjects?"

Huh? you lost me with this last part, what's the "suspicious" stuff that is "going on'? Gregg, I am just curious, how long does it take you to scan the thread titles? regards, Njall

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Good points. Also, where would surf boats fit in? The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks?

How long would it take you to scan two newsgroups? 27 seconds maybe? The point behind all of this is to provide a forum for non-ww boaters to discuss non-ww topics. In an ideal world we would have a newsgroup dedicated to WW only, in which case all *other* forms of paddling would remain in R.B.P. This would prbably result in a good balance of posts between the groups. I have seen many posts roll of my server due to excessive volume on R.B.P - which is 2x rec.backcountry and 4-5x rec.boats.building on any given day. Nobody, as far as I'm concerned is advocating the fractionalization of RBP - just a logical division.

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Good points. Also, where would surf boats fit in? The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks? If there

You're lucky. You have a decent ISP. I have to use Talkways, because I have a lousy one, but it's the only one available through local dialup. It takes me an hour or more to go through RBP, post by post, because trying to do it by message headers is even slower. Since this is winter and I hate TV and the water is too hard for paddling, it doesn't matter, but as soon as things warm up a bit, I often won't have the time to dink around going through post after post, looking for the perhaps five percent that interest me. -- Wes -- Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.

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If a mailing list is okay with you, why not a new newsgroup?

Because a newsgroup is about 100 times as resource intensive as a mailing list.  Each location it sends it to is less than a piece of e-mail, however there are 100,000 locations. Traditionally, the tradeoff was guestimated at around 100 members, however the internet (and usenet) has grown signifigantly since anyone looked at it, it's probably closer to 1000 now. Jay -- * Jay Denebeim  Moderator       rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated   *

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what do you think about REC.BOATS.PADDLE.NON-WHITEWATER While I like the idea of the ww folks moving to a group called rec.boats.paddle.whitewater better, I agree that this is highly unlikely.

This name may be seen as excluding canoe trip reports or route descriptions that have whitewater as a minor element. Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html

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I agree that rec.boats.paddle.whitewater is a good name for paddlers who play in whitewater.  Is this likely though?

Lloyd, what do you think about REC.BOATS.PADDLE.NON-WHITEWATER While I like the idea of the ww folks moving to a group called rec.boats.paddle.whitewater better, I agree that this is highly unlikely. Seems to me that the NON-WW name would accomplish what we need, it would be self descriptive, clear and understandable. Chuck

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                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)                  unmoderated group rec.boats.canoeing This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup rec.boats.canoeing.  This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.  Procedural details are below. Newsgroup line: rec.boats.canoeing      Discussions related to flatwater canoeing. RATIONALE: rec.boats.canoeing Discussion of flatwater canoeing, canoes, and canoe tripping constitutes a minority of the traffic on rec.boats.paddle.  A brief, and admittedly unscientific sampling of the traffic on rec.boats.paddle yielded the following results: 8% of posts were applicable to flatwater canoeing, 8% *might* be of interest to a flatwater canoeist, and 84% of posts dealt with white-water kayaking. Precise percentages are not important, rather, these numbers are presented as a snapshot of a typical day of posts. At a conservative rate of 200 posts per day, a strictly flatwater canoeist would need to sort out 164 posts that he/she considers irrelavent. A rec.boats.canoeing newsgroup would provide an alternative group that strictly flatwater canoeists could subscribe to without the nuisance of sorting inapplicable headers. There have been lengthy discussions in the past on rec.boats.paddle about splitting the newsgroup.  They have frequently ended with no RFD being written.  This proposed group is not intended to split the newsgroup.  Rather, it simply provides a place for flatwater canoeing discussion.  Paddlers who enjoy both flatwater and whitewater paddling will benefit from the ability to direct specific comments and questions toward a more focused group. CHARTER: rec.boats.canoeing Appropriate topics for rec.boats.canoeing include questions and comments about canoes, canoe accesories, canoeing technique, flatwater canoeing locations/routes, canoe camping, canoe tripping, and other flatwater canoeing related topics.  Discussion about whitewater canoeing is not prohibited, but posters should be aware that their comments and questions would generate higher quality responses in the rec.boats.paddle newsgroup.  For Sale and Wanted to Buy posts should be preceded by a [FS] or [WTB] flag in the subject header.  Retailers of both used and new boats/gear should provide links to their webpages or e-mail addresses rather than post lists of available boats/gear. Retailers should also limit such posts to a total of 1 per month or less. END CHARTER. PROCEDURE: This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes.  In this phase of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups should be raised and resolved.  The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.  Please do not attempt to vote until this happens. All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups. This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal".  Please refer to these documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions about the process. DISTRIBUTION: This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:   news.announce.newgroups news.groups   rec.boats.paddle rec.backcountry rec.boats.building rec.boats.racing   (mailing list, see canoecountry.com for info)

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Note followup-to is news.groups!!! Summary:  This RFD would create a confusing namespace and would not solve the problem leading to the RFD.  While I understand and sympathize with the wishes of the flatwater minority on RBP, this RFD will only confuse the issue.         rec.boats.canoeing has been proposed as a place for the non-whitewater interests of rec.boats.paddle to use, as a solution for the problems with whitewater traffic drowning out non-whitewater traffic on rec.boats.paddle.  But the name is not descriptive, for the following reasons: 1) Some non-negligible percentage of the whitewater posters on rec.boats.paddle paddle canoes, not kayaks. 2) rec.boats.canoeing does not accurately cover the sea kayaking, kayak touring and kayak tripping interests that should also be covered by this split/newgroup. 3) In American English, a "canoe" is a boat paddled with a one-bladed paddle.  In British English, the word "canoe" covers both one-bladed and two-bladed craft; in short, what Yanks call a Kayak, Brits call a Canoe.         For these reasons, the hierarchy that would result from this proposal passing would result in two groups whose names do not describe the traffic they are supposed to be carrying.  The result of this vote passing would be "rec.boats.paddle" for whitewater interests and "rec.boats.canoeing" for flatwater/touring interests.  Can anyone honestly say that they figured that out from the names?         I cannot vote for this proposal as written, and I encourage all concerned parties to honestly ask themselves if they can.  There is a serious danger here that there are many frustrated flatwater boaters willing to vote for anything that will get them out of rec.boats.paddle’s traffic.  But a poor solution is worse than no solution in the long run, and this solution will only result in confusion.         I encourage all interested parties to brainstorm for a renaming that would CORRECTLY describe the split.  An example might be rec.boats.paddle.whitewater rec.boats.paddle.flatwater or flatwater+touring or flatwater+tripping         Please, people, we’ll have to live with this vote for a long time.  Don’t screw up everybody because it’s easier to vote for the first solution offered rather than wait for the right solution.         Finally, let me say that I intend no criticism of Bob Solak. I think he’s done a great thing by stepping up and actually doing the right thing, an RFD, as opposed to countless others who think that groups are formed by a quorum of whining.  I just disagree with the name chosen for the new group.  1.01 GCS/GO d++ p+ c++ l++ u++ e+ -m+ s++/- n- h !(f)? g+ -w+ t+ r– y?  "I want to permeate the air you breathe/slide my way under your skin/place myself behind your eyes/and watch you, watch me, looking in." Katell Keineg

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [deleted] Now if I could just make a pair of waders out of Hefty Garbage Sacks and bungee cords, I’d be set…. [deleted] Well…not bungee cords, but you can use those tall trash sacks with the handle ties for hippers. Make yourself a pair of duct tape booties and you’ll fishing in high style. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Reminds of something I saw on the Chilliwack River a few years back: there was a nice backwater full of coho on the other side of the river but the water was low enough to ford. I saw a guy waring rain pants duck taped to rubber boots fishing the backwater. I wrinkled my brow and wondered how well that worked. I was skeptical it could keep much water from finding its way into his boots. About an hour later he confirmed my skepticism by peeling off the tape and emptying a guart or more water from each boot. OTH I’ve heard tell that some winter steelheaders modify neoprene waders by cutting the worn boots off and gluing them to a pair of water proof snowmobiling boots with aquaseal or goop: the trick is to fit the neoprene leg over an empty coffee can to widen it then slip the can into the boot and pull the neoprene over the boot and apply copious amounts of glue. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

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[deleted] Now if I could just make a pair of waders out of Hefty Garbage Sacks and bungee cords, I’d be set….

[deleted] Well…not bungee cords, but you can use those tall trash sacks with the handle ties for hippers. Make yourself a pair of duct tape booties and you’ll fishing in high style. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Although I know how to finish a fly with a hand whip finish, I use the Matarelli tool for this purpose. Why? Because it’s neater, the thread is less apt to fray or break, I can place the wraps where I want anywhere along the shank and it might be faster. It’s a small investment for a tool that will last a lifetime(unless you lose it as I did). Agree completely – get a Matarelli – I’ve had mine close to 20 years. Looks and works just like new. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Agree completely with Ralph H., Matarelli makes the best whip finisher – and there instructions enclosed. Its real advantage for us with rough hands.

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Didn’t we have this thread about a year ago? Guys spaming each other on" to use or not to use" a whip finisher? Is this dream? Joel Axelrad

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Thanks for the neat idea, Bob — I just made myself one of these and tried it out tonight. It worked great! Now if I could just make a pair of waders out of Hefty Garbage Sacks and bungee cords, I’d be set…. Thanks again! R.S. Heaton – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Try making yourself the World’s Cheapest Hackle Guard (remainder of cool idea snipped)

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I have a Griffin and would not think of tying without it. They are cheap enough.  I suggest just buying one and trying it.  You’re not out much if you decide that it does not suit your style.

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I prefer to whip finish by hand.  Try both the tools are not that expensive and see what you prefer.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Try making yourself the World’s Cheapest Hackle Guard.  Take a soda straw, cut yourself off a piece about half an inch long or so, and slit it lengthwise.  When you need to use it just slide it on the fly and over the hackle.  The thread from the bobbin just gets passed along the slit and is thus free to tie with after the guard is in place.  Then, with the hackle safely bound down, you can whip-finish and cement your fly and be very proud of your results.  I’ve bought several sets of hackle guards of various shapes, sizes, and styles over the years and find that the simple "slit soda straw" works better than any of them.  I hope this helps. — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers!

Neat idea, I’ll give it a whirl. Peter Peter        Merry Christmas

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0] : … : Does anyone : here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? : … : Pierre I am not going to disagree with either camp on using or not using a tool here. I’ll just add something I have lately discovered that applies to either for small flies and fine thread. If you rub some beeswax (or I suppose parafin) on the part of the thread that’s going to be in the finish, the friction of drawing it up melts the wax and lubricates as it snaps into place, and then sets so you don’t need to use head cement. I find that I don’t break 8/0 thread at this step nearly as much when I do this, and I don’t end up with cement clogged eyes. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

Peter, a hackle guard may help –  you can make these fairly easily.

I tried hackle guards but I don’t have enough hands to manage thread, whip finisher and hackle guard at the same time.  No talent, I guess. Also ballpoint pen shafts make good half-hitch tools. With a bit of ferreting through some desk drawers you can find a few sizes; "BIC" style pens are a big tool (better for packing spun deer hair) while the old Paper mate style will service the smallest flies you tie.

Great cheap solution, though mine were given to me when a fellow ff’er cleaned out his junk.  I wouldn’t want to pay some of those prices now. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Peter        Merry Christmas

Response:

Pierre, I was taught to do a one hand whip finish many years ago.  I have tried to use a whip finish tool and never felt that I had the same control of the thread. I can place each wrap exactly where I want it with my hand and keep the thread taught. Never felt I had the same control with the whip finish tools I’ve tried. Of course, I never gave them a lot of use. I will say that with the technique I use it helps to have good vision (the only body equipment that still works as originally designed) but this is probably true for any fly head finishing.  Good luck. I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

– Steve Vaughn Kodak Park Health, Safety & Environmental Services Eastman Kodak Company – http://www.kodak.com

Response:

with my eyes I could whip without a toll… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

Response:

My half hitch tool has a dubbing pick on one end which I use to clean hook eyes and the other end has a half hitch tool which I use for compressing spun deer hair. — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Make your own Tapered Leaders, Wading Boots, Fly Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh

(Peter Charles) says: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pierre   The half-hitch tool enables you to position the loop exactly where you want it as well as push back those stray hackle barbs that always end up pointing forward.  With a whip, you usually end up tying over the strays and having to clip them afterward.  I suppose, If I wound hackle better, I wouldn’t have this problem but that’s another thread. Peter, a hackle guard may help –  you can make these fairly easily. Also ballpoint pen shafts make good half-hitch tools. With a bit of ferreting through some desk drawers you can find a few sizes; "BIC" style pens are a big tool (better for packing spun deer hair) while the old Paper mate style will service the smallest flies you tie. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Response:

I am not a precise fly tier and have found that the more beat up a fly gets, the better the trout like it.  A whip finishing tool is just an additional step in the tying process and an additional tool on my workspace. The trout don’t seem to mind if I overlay a wrap or two when tying off the head. — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Make your own Tapered Leaders, Wading Boots, Fly Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although I know how to finish a fly with a hand whip finish, I use the Matarelli tool for this purpose. Why? Because it’s neater, the thread is less apt to fray or break, I can place the wraps where I want anywhere along the shank and it might be faster. It’s a small investment for a tool that will last a lifetime(unless you lose it as I did). Agree completely – get a Matarelli – I’ve had mine close to 20 years. Looks and works just like new. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Response:

Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice!

I’ve got a Griffin whip-finisher and consider it essential.  I *can* do a hand whip-finish but I find the tool helps me position the thread better which is very important on small dries with hackle near the eye.  I figured out how to use mine from the directions which came with it, and it only took a minute to get it right.  I suggest that you practice on a bare hook – that way you can figure out how everything is supposed to work without the pressure of having to get it right Or Else..!  :-) — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers!

Response:

With a whip, you usually end up tying over the strays and having to clip them afterward.  I suppose, If I wound hackle better, I wouldn’t have this problem but that’s another thread.

Try making yourself the World’s Cheapest Hackle Guard.  Take a soda straw, cut yourself off a piece about half an inch long or so, and slit it lengthwise.  When you need to use it just slide it on the fly and over the hackle.  The thread from the bobbin just gets passed along the slit and is thus free to tie with after the guard is in place.  Then, with the hackle safely bound down, you can whip-finish and cement your fly and be very proud of your results.  I’ve bought several sets of hackle guards of various shapes, sizes, and styles over the years and find that the simple "slit soda straw" works better than any of them.  I hope this helps. — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers!

Response:

Pierre

  The half-hitch tool enables you to position the loop exactly where you want it as well as push back those stray hackle barbs that always end up pointing forward.  With a whip, you usually end up tying over the strays and having to clip them afterward.  I suppose, If I wound hackle better, I wouldn’t have this problem but that’s another thread.

Peter, a hackle guard may help –  you can make these fairly easily. Also ballpoint pen shafts make good half-hitch tools. With a bit of ferreting through some desk drawers you can find a few sizes; "BIC" style pens are a big tool (better for packing spun deer hair) while the old Paper mate style will service the smallest flies you tie. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Response:

Never use ‘em on standard hackled dry flies anymore, almost always use a half hitch tool these days. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

Response:

Although I know how to finish a fly with a hand whip finish, I use the Matarelli tool for this purpose. Why? Because it’s neater, the thread is less apt to fray or break, I can place the wraps where I want anywhere along the shank and it might be faster. It’s a small investment for a tool that will last a lifetime(unless you lose it as I did).

Agree completely – get a Matarelli – I’ve had mine close to 20 years. Looks and works just like new. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Response:

Hi Pierre,  a whip finishing tool is great for finishing off flies. I know many people are proud of the fact that they dont use one, but I find the tool of immense value. You can place your whips exactly without fear of trapping hackle etc, and the resulting knot is very reliable.  Have a look at  http://www.flyanglersonline.com  Beginning Fly-tying by Al.Campbell, both types of whip finisher the English style, and the rotary style are described there.

I recommend http://thesmokies.com/oldsmoky_outfitters/flytying/index.htm for an excellent illustrated description of how to use a whip finish tool, along with other helpful advice for beginners (like me). — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

Pierre I use it on some flies, a half-hitch tool on others and just my fingers on some. It really depends on the size of the fly.  I find half-hitch tools better for small dries, whip finishers better for salmon, spey etc.  But that’s just my preference.  The half-hitch tool enables you to position the loop exactly where you want it as well as push back those stray hackle barbs that always end up pointing forward.  With a whip, you usually end up tying over the strays and having to clip them afterward.  I suppose, If I wound hackle better, I wouldn’t have this problem but that’s another thread. Take the time to learn it but get a set of half-hitch tools too. Peter Peter        Merry Christmas

Response:

Although I know how to finish a fly with a hand whip finish, I use the Matarelli tool for this purpose. Why? Because it’s neater, the thread is less apt to fray or break, I can place the wraps where I want anywhere along the shank and it might be faster. It’s a small investment for a tool that will last a lifetime(unless you lose it as I did).

Response:

I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

Hi Pierre,  a whip finishing tool is great for finishing off flies. I know many people are proud of the fact that they dont use one, but I find the tool of immense value. You can place your whips exactly without fear of trapping hackle etc, and the resulting knot is very reliable.  Have a look at  http://www.flyanglersonline.com  Beginning Fly-tying by Al.Campbell, both types of whip finisher the English style, and the rotary style are described there. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

Response:

Pierre;         I can’t imagine finishing a fly without one. Get one, you will never look back. john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

Response:

Question:

A friend/client, has fished in many parts of the world, without booking through outfitters. Is there any way this can be done in Alaska. He is prepared to hire a guide, at least for a while, possibly the whole trip, and we would appreciate any advice on an alternative to being based at a lodge. Private responses are welcome. Many thanks Del

Response:

A friend/client, has fished in many parts of the world, without booking through outfitters. Is there any way this can be done in Alaska. He is prepared to hire a guide, at least for a while, possibly the whole trip, and we would appreciate any advice on an alternative to being based at a lodge. Private responses are welcome. Many thanks Del

Sure, it’s easy.  Long as you’re not scared of bears and are comfortable with backwoods camping and rafting.  Lot’s of people arrange their own float trips, and there is a thriving business in Alaska around doing that.  You have to be an independent sort, but it is NOT hard.   Try contacting Alaska Bush Carriers in Anchorage, or Fresh Water Adventures in Dillingham.  ABC flies to the Talachulitna, Mulchatna, Chilikadrotna, Deshka, and Lake Creek.  FWA does the Togiak, Goodnews, Kanektok, and others.  Both can help you with rafts, or you can get rafts from Wild Alaska Rivers in Anchorage, and air frieght them to point of need. You can do the Tal for about $500/man, and the Goodnews for about $800/man, not counting airfare.  ABC can rent you a tent and camping gear package as well as the rafts.   Camp Bendeleben, out of Nome, is an interesting trek outside of rainbow trout country, and is on the edge of the known planet.  GREAT silver salmon and char fishing in late august.   I’ve used both of these outfits, and like them.  Using a different outfit to go to the Alagnak this summer, will see how they do.   I recommend that you get the book, ALaska Fly Fishing, by Tony Route, to get you grounded in what kind of tackle you need.  All the gear you need can be gotten in Anchorage if you have a couple of hours between flights.  Try Mountain View Sports, or McAfee’s Fly Shop. Feel free to write if this isn’t enough to get you going.   — Andrew Brunette

Response:

Have you considered Arctic char fishing in Canada’s High Arctic?  The Cdn $ (the loonie) is way down so prices are currently a bargin in US $. There are three options out of Pond Inlet on northern Baffin Island:  1. An Inuit guide/outfitter can drop you off at a fishing spot for a few days and pick you up later.  2. The guide can stay with you and you can try different fishing spots, and enjoy the specatular scenery, mountains, fiords, glaciers, caribou, whales, etc.  3. Or try the lodge in Kuluktoo Bay (most expensive). Up to 6 fishers can share a boat so a small group is most economical. Tununiq Travel and Adventure can put it together for you.  As a tour operator, they can access the lowest published airfares for you out of Montreal or Ottawa. Pond Inlet is well north of the Arctic Circle so you have lots of day light to work with in August.  The ice usually goes out in late July/early August, and after that you can travel by boat. The char are along the shores of the fiords and near the mouths of river until late August. Last year some lucky fishers were throwing back the 15 lbers and keeping the 19 lbers. For more information visit the web site:  www.tununiq.com General descriptions of Fishing adventures are on the Tununiq Adventures page, but check out the other pages for background information (e.g., the Wildlife and Climate pages via the Our Natural World page). Is you want some booking information send and email to Mike Ferguson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend/client, has fished in many parts of the world, without booking through outfitters. Is there any way this can be done in Alaska. He is prepared to hire a guide, at least for a while, possibly the whole trip, and we would appreciate any advice on an alternative to being based at a lodge. Private responses are welcome. Many thanks Del Sure, it’s easy.  Long as you’re not scared of bears and are comfortable with backwoods camping and rafting.  Lot’s of people arrange their own float trips, and there is a thriving business in Alaska around doing that.  You have to be an independent sort, but it is NOT hard. Try contacting Alaska Bush Carriers in Anchorage, or Fresh Water Adventures in Dillingham.  ABC flies to the Talachulitna, Mulchatna, Chilikadrotna, Deshka, and Lake Creek.  FWA does the Togiak, Goodnews, Kanektok, and others.  Both can help you with rafts, or you can get rafts from Wild Alaska Rivers in Anchorage, and air frieght them to point of need. You can do the Tal for about $500/man, and the Goodnews for about $800/man, not counting airfare.  ABC can rent you a tent and camping gear package as well as the rafts. Camp Bendeleben, out of Nome, is an interesting trek outside of rainbow trout country, and is on the edge of the known planet.  GREAT silver salmon and char fishing in late august. I’ve used both of these outfits, and like them.  Using a different outfit to go to the Alagnak this summer, will see how they do. I recommend that you get the book, ALaska Fly Fishing, by Tony Route, to get you grounded in what kind of tackle you need.  All the gear you need can be gotten in Anchorage if you have a couple of hours between flights.  Try Mountain View Sports, or McAfee’s Fly Shop. Feel free to write if this isn’t enough to get you going. — Andrew Brunette

Response:

Question:

You guys are foolin’ yerselves about the Jeep Cherokee.  It has the absolutely most abyssmal maintenance record of just about any vehicle on earth, 4WD or otherwise. This is Consumer Reports talking..check it out for yourself.  I have known so many disgusted Cherokee owners (well 2, specifically…) that I would not touch one with a 10 foot 12 weight. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

I understand that the Cherokee was never built on a truck chassis, a remanufactured car chassis was used. As for me, my 1978 4×4 Chevy Blazer with 264,000 miles with tattered seats but Michelin radials provides me with all the back country access I could ever want.

Response:

Another dissatisfied Cherokee (1988) owner here.  To be fair, I purchased mine just before American Motors was purchased by Chrysler.  Anyway, the engine crapped out before 50K miles, and it had been cared for in a manner better than was recommended in the owner’s manual.  Also, I had an extended warranty on the vehicle (paid extra for of course).  Anyway, the "adjuster" from Chrysler reviewed my claim and disallowed it because "it was obviously abused or it wouldn’t have had the problem."  Went round and round, countless letters, I replaced the engine (at my cost) and vowed I would never purchase another (now) Chrysler product, ever!!  Later, I read in a news account about the numbers of Jeeps that had similar problems.  I now have a Toyota 4Runner, with no complaints after 90K+ miles.  Change the oil every 3K miles, follow recommended maintenance, new gas once a week and air the tires once a month.  It runs and runs and runs….. — Ron Eaton – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You guys are foolin’ yerselves about the Jeep Cherokee.  It has the absolutely most abyssmal maintenance record of just about any vehicle on earth, 4WD or otherwise. This is Consumer Reports talking..check it out for yourself.  I have known so many disgusted Cherokee owners (well 2, specifically…) that I would not touch one with a 10 foot 12 weight. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Your brother’s pickup reminds me of a 1970 Datsun pickup I bought in 1980 for $500.  The speedometer had broken at 100K and it was beat up, but the engine purred like a kitten.  It was the same engine they used in the 280Z sports car.  I fixed the dents, slapped a coat of paint on it, installed some shocks, king pins, tires, and a set of brakes, then took it fishing all over the Sierra Nevada Mountains in Northern California for the next ten years.  It went every place a road crossed a trout stream.  There wasn’t much head room and I kept the seat belt tight because the overload springs could put your head through the roof, and I didn’t lean on the door because a sharp bump could put the window crank through your rib cage, but it was a great fishing vehicle.  Finally sold it to a guy for $500 who wanted it for his gardening business. — Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   My brother Paul drives the ultimate fish car. He has a go anywhere, tough as nails, fix it yourself, park it and don’t worry, $700 1967 Ford pickup. The vehicle has panache, driving to the river in it gives me a feeling of adventure

Response:

Could it be that the people who have trouble with Jeeps are the people who actually take them off road?  I know for a fact that the Nort Carolina beaches will wreak havoc on some vehicles!

Response:

Could it be that the people who have trouble with Jeeps are the people who actually take them off road?  I know for a fact that the Nort Carolina beaches will wreak havoc on some vehicles!

I used to take mine off road but don’t so much anymore since I got my D90. The Cherokee did OK off road though. FWIW. Charlie…

Response:

Driving on a salt water beach will raise hell with most vehicles unless you hose it down thoroughly with fresh water when you are through.  We drove down the beach in Northern California to go smelt dipping and perch fishing with a jeep, but always hosed it down and never had a problem.  Of course this was in 1948.:-) — Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could it be that the people who have trouble with Jeeps are the people who actually take them off road?  I know for a fact that the Nort Carolina beaches will wreak havoc on some vehicles!

Response:

Sorry this message is not related to 4X4’s (but I will be driving a 98 Dodge real soon) rather I wqs wondering if anyone from Alberta"Canada used this newsgroup? And I am in the market for a new 4-5 weight 81/2 foot rod? Any good sug?  Anyway…have fun and may the trout rise…(corny).

Response:

You guys are foolin’ yerselves about the Jeep Cherokee.  It has the absolutely most abyssmal maintenance record of just about any vehicle on earth, 4WD or otherwise. This is Consumer Reports talking..check it out for yourself.  I have known so many disgusted Cherokee owners (well 2, specifically…) that I would not touch one with a 10 foot 12 weight.

Hell I drive a Taurus Sedan myself. It pulls up nicely to the lots that are only a few steps or a short walk down into the stream I seen a neat little comic about 4 wheel drive, something in the order when the guy was ready to pull out of a supermarket, he felt it was time to put it in 4 wd to go over a speed bump.  Sounds like most of the 4wd’s in our area…. — Randy P.E.T.A. people eating tasty animals

Response:

If you want a reliable vehicle buy a Toyota 4WD pickup — Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While we are back on this, I would recommend looking into the V6 Chevy S-10 Blazer to find a great 4 WD.  $1000 to drop a new engine in at some point (around 120K miles), $600 new ball joints around 150K and that sucker will run forever.)  By one that is used, if you can find someone who will sell one. T. Rick Fletcher  

Response:

My "fish car" is a five year old Toyota 4X4 pickup. Total maintenance costs (so far) consists of oil, filters, and one set of tires. Goes anywhere and always starts.   My wife drives the hated Grand Cherokee. I’d take it fishing if she’d let me, it’s more comfortable and more powerful than my Toyota, and the stereo really cranks. I think the Jeep straight six is one tough motor, it’s the niggling details (power windows, A/C) that keep it in the shop.   My brother Paul drives the ultimate fish car. He has a go anywhere, tough as nails, fix it yourself, park it and don’t worry, $700 1967 Ford pickup. The vehicle has panache, driving to the river in it gives me a feeling of adventure, we’re going FISHING by golly, and we ain’t a couple of downtown dudes in a goll-dern Range Rover. Charlie, going shopping for a beater.

Response:

You guys are foolin’ yerselves about the Jeep Cherokee.  It has the absolutely most abyssmal maintenance record of just about any vehicle on earth, 4WD or otherwise. This is Consumer Reports talking..check it out for yourself.  I have known so many disgusted Cherokee owners (well 2, specifically…) that I would not touch one with a 10 foot 12 weight. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Tim Somehow you didn’t strike me as one who would fall for the hype in CR. You don’t really believe that crap that they spew do you?

Response:

I bought my Grand Cherokee Ltd. in June of ‘94, fully loaded, for 30K (The Toyota Land Cruiser is 40+ K).  Have kept up routine maintenance.  Two major problems have been solved by warranty service.  I got exactly what I thought I’d get.  A luxury ride no matter where I go.  It’ll go anywhere any of the vehicles already mentioned will go. I’ve got the funds to enjoy it, so why shouldn’t I.  Eat your hearts out.                                                            -dnc-

Response:

  I bought my Grand Cherokee Ltd. in June of ‘94, fully loaded, for 30K (The   Toyota Land Cruiser is 40+ K).  Have kept up routine maintenance.  Two   major problems have been solved by warranty service.  I got exactly what I   thought I’d get.  A luxury ride no matter where I go.  It’ll go anywhere   any of the vehicles already mentioned will go.

If this vehicle is so great, why are you bothering to defend it on this anonymous forum?  A 2 year old vehicle with "2 major problems" – by what crazy definition is that a good investment or vehicle?  I’ve got the funds to enjoy it, so why shouldn’t I.  Eat your hearts out.

I didn’t realize that it is required that one has to be a complete ass to buy one of these.   Take this crap over to the 4×4 newsgroups.  It is of no relevance to flyfishing. -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html email: replace the "this_address_is_wrong" with "tgades"

Response:

You guys are foolin’ yerselves about the Jeep Cherokee.  It has the absolutely most abyssmal maintenance record of just about any vehicle on earth, 4WD or otherwise. This is Consumer Reports talking..check it out for yourself.  I have known so many disgusted Cherokee owners (well 2, specifically…) that I would not touch one with a 10 foot 12 weight.

I don’t read CS but I have an ‘87 Cherokee that is the most trouble free vehicle I have ever owned. Don’t know much about the newer ones but I do know that CS doesn’t have a very good reputation on rec.autos.4×4. YMMV of course. — Charlie…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You guys are foolin’ yerselves about the Jeep Cherokee.  It has the absolutely most abyssmal maintenance record of just about any vehicle on earth, 4WD or otherwise. This is Consumer Reports talking..check it out for yourself.  I have known so many disgusted Cherokee owners (well 2, specifically…) that I would not touch one with a 10 foot 12 weight. I don’t read CS but I have an ‘87 Cherokee that is the most trouble free vehicle I have ever owned. Don’t know much about the newer ones but I do know that CS doesn’t have a very good reputation on rec.autos.4×4. YMMV of course. — Charlie…

Consumer reports bases it’s ratings on reader responses – ie if you complain to them. Phil Edmonstons "Lemon Aide" guide uses the manufacturers own Maintenance service bulletins that advise dealers exactly what sort of problems are being reported from the field. However this guide is generally negative on the Cherokee. Phil likes to say when confronted by experience like yours Charlie: "goes to prove you can’t always make a bad car!    " Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Tim, I’ve got a Cherokee that’s a few years old and I’ve had zero problems with it.  The big concern with me was the apparent thinness of the brake rotors that had to be replaced if they were turned too much by over-enthusiastic repairmen.  The 1996 models have thicker rotors that withstand the turning a lot better.  All the Jeep owners that I know love them and the only dis-satisfied owners I know, 3, were Grand Cherokee owners. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is Consumer Reports talking..check it out for yourself.  I have known so many disgusted Cherokee owners (well 2, specifically…) that I would not touch one with a 10 foot 12 weight. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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: I know exactly how you feel.  The funny thing is, I drive a sport utility : vehicle (the loathed Cherokee – actually the cheapest vehicle in it’s : class) – living in Maine, the 4wd comes in very handy, especially getting : to back-county brookie waters.   While we are back on this, I would recommend looking into the V6 Chevy S-10 Blazer to find a great 4 WD.  $1000 to drop a new engine in at some point (around 120K miles), $600 new ball joints around 150K and that sucker will run forever.)  By one that is used, if you can find someone who will sell one. — Rick

Rick, I sold my V-6 Blazer with 139,000 miles to help pay for my Jeep with 50,000 on it.  I owned the Blazer for 9 years, that was long enough.  In the last two years, new ball joints, radiator, gas tank, etc., etc., but never touched the engine or tranny.  I saw the buyer the other day and he said it’s going great. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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You guys are foolin’ yerselves about the Jeep Cherokee.  It has the absolutely most abyssmal maintenance record of just about any vehicle on earth, 4WD or otherwise. This is Consumer Reports talking..check it out for yourself.  I have known so many disgusted Cherokee owners (well 2, specifically…) that I would not touch one with a 10 foot 12 weight. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I know exactly how you feel.  The funny thing is, I drive a sport utility : vehicle (the loathed Cherokee – actually the cheapest vehicle in it’s : class) – living in Maine, the 4wd comes in very handy, especially getting : to back-county brookie waters.   But isn’t a Lmtd. Ed. Grand SuperDuper Cherokee available?  That’s the one many of us laugh at… and it’s not because it is a waste of metal, it is a pretty automobile… it’s because the idea of taking a leather upholstered, shiny $40,000 car into the mud is silly.  And many view it as posing.  Expalin the number of HumVee’s cruising around Sun Valley… While we are back on this, I would recommend looking into the V6 Chevy S-10 Blazer to find a great 4 WD.  $1000 to drop a new engine in at some point (around 120K miles), $600 new ball joints around 150K and that sucker will run forever.)  By one that is used, if you can find someone who will sell one.

  I will entertain $10,000 for my 87  ;-) Harry

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: I know exactly how you feel.  The funny thing is, I drive a sport utility : vehicle (the loathed Cherokee – actually the cheapest vehicle in it’s : class) – living in Maine, the 4wd comes in very handy, especially getting : to back-county brookie waters.   But isn’t a Lmtd. Ed. Grand SuperDuper Cherokee available?  That’s the one many of us laugh at… and it’s not because it is a waste of metal, it is a pretty automobile… it’s because the idea of taking a leather upholstered, shiny $40,000 car into the mud is silly.  And many view it as posing.  Expalin the number of HumVee’s cruising around Sun Valley… While we are back on this, I would recommend looking into the V6 Chevy S-10 Blazer to find a great 4 WD.  $1000 to drop a new engine in at some point (around 120K miles), $600 new ball joints around 150K and that sucker will run forever.)  By one that is used, if you can find someone who will sell one. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: I know exactly how you feel.  The funny thing is, I drive a sport utility : vehicle (the loathed Cherokee – actually the cheapest vehicle in it’s : class) – living in Maine, the 4wd comes in very handy, especially getting : to back-county brookie waters.   I too have the loathed Cherokee.  I took a lot of ribbing from my father when I bought it.  He has a pickup.  It ended when I showed him what I paid.  Compared to his full-sized pickup, the Cherokee was practically cheap. I spend a lot of time in the backcountry, can only afford one automobile, and need more passenger space than a pickup. I shopped around, and the Cherokee (not the GRAND Cherokee) is the best value around. Sure, if you never take it off road, you might as well buy a minivan.  Although have you seen the prices on mini-vans – EEK maybe that’s why SUV’s are so popular? My $0.02,      - Ken — Ken Janik Oregon State University Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering

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. . .  it seems like fly fishing is just another political party. When is the last time that you saw a magazine picture of a fly fisherman in regular clothes with a rod that he got at K-mart? This isn’t to down-talk fly fishing, I love it, but every influence says that it isn’t fly fishing unless you drive a yuppified sport utility with Eddie Bauer, LL Bean or some other clothing manufacturer’s name on the side of it, wear waders,

People who take their fishing values from pictures are like people who value their food according to how it looks in pictures.  Most fly anglers are thinking people, and what thinking person rates enjoyment (music or mountaineering) by photographs? — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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 Its Bryce back to stir up trouble With all of the pictures and other influences, it seems like fly fishing is just another political party. When is the last time that you saw a magazine picture of a fly fisherman in regular clothes with a rod that he got at K-mart?

Yup, I have to confess. Back in 87 my wife and kids gave me a K-Mart Browning 8 1/2 ft. 6 weight for my birthday. It was kinda of hard to act surprised in a good way but I believe I pulled it off. Now I love that rob and there’s not a dab of cork on the thing. I’m off to the Cherokee National Forest next week and guess which rod’s going along——it’s already in the, well, Cherokee. Cheers, Randy Giles

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Hello.  Its Bryce back to stir up trouble With all of the pictures and other influences, it seems like fly fishing is just another political party. When is the last time that you saw a magazine picture of a fly fisherman in regular clothes with a rod that he got at K-mart? This isn’t to down-talk fly fishing, I love it, but every influence says that it isn’t fly fishing unless you drive a yuppified sport utility with Eddie Bauer, LL Bean or some other clothing manufacturer’s name on the side of it, wear waders, have a rod that costs 200 dollars. Oh, and I forgot that it is impossible to catch fish unless you have every new thing on the market. I kno tha there are some who are in it to have a chalenging way of catching fish, but alot of the "fly fishers" are just yuppies. I can tell that most in this newsgroup are not that way, so I want your input. Thanks. BryceC

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Hello.  Its Bryce back to stir up trouble . When is the last time that you saw a magazine picture of a fly fisherman in regular clothes with a rod that he got at K-mart? This isn’t to down-talk fly fishing, I love it, but every influence says that it isn’t fly fishing unless you drive a yuppified sport utility with Eddie Bauer, LL Bean or some other clothing manufacturer’s name on the side of it, wear waders, have a rod that costs 200 dollars. your input. Thanks. BryceC

I know exactly how you feel.  The funny thing is, I drive a sport utility vehicle (the loathed Cherokee – actually the cheapest vehicle in it’s class) – living in Maine, the 4wd comes in very handy, especially getting to back-county brookie waters.  And yes, after 20+ years of fishing with a Shakespeare I bought at K-Mart, it started coming apart at the ferrule, and I went to Beans’s outlet and bought a marked-down Guide rod.  I did have an earlier thread complaining that I’m hard pressed to see the improvement over the Shakespeare, fine equipment can be had without spending a lot of money.  As for the waders, I skip them in the summer, but if I’m not in a boat or canoe this time of year, the water’s too cold without them. The thing that really sets me apart, though, is I still eat trout on occasion. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Question:

i am taking a friend on a flyfishing vacation starting july 27. we are leaving from sacramento and will probably head to the upper sac. or maybe the mcloud the first day. eventually we’ll end up at the deschutes river, but what we do between the 2 areas is undecided. suggestions for waters to fish would be gratefully welcome. thanks a million in advance          greg

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Greg, I have some advice on eastern Oregon lakes on my site, and The Scarlet Ibis Fly Shop has some more content re: Oregon.  Hit their tip archives.  You can get to all of this at the URL below.  The lakes are liable to be off, though, the way temperatures have been.  Why not try the upper McKenzie, after the Rogue? i am taking a friend on a flyfishing vacation starting july 27. we are leaving from sacramento and will probably head to the upper sac. or maybe the mcloud the first day. eventually we’ll end up at the deschutes river, but what we do between the 2 areas is undecided. suggestions for waters to fish would be gratefully welcome. thanks a million in advance          greg

– Greg Metcalfe            |  Affordable Web Development http://www.proaxis.com   |  IE or Netscape 3.0

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Question:

I was wondering if anyone could help. I will be in Pittsburgh for five days during Oct.16-20. Is there anywhere near there that I could wet a line? If there are any small rivers that I could fly-fish,please let me know! I need to do something after some boring seminars! Thanks in advance! ED My Thoughts Are My Own!

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Quoting mckernane from a message in rec.outdoors.fishing     I was wondering if anyone could help. I will be in Pittsburgh for    five days during Oct.16-20. Is there anywhere near there that I could    wet a line? If there are any small rivers that I could fly-fish,please    let me know! I need to do something after some boring seminars!     Thanks in advance!     ED Howdy Ed,  I’m in Eastern Pa, so can’t help you in the Pburg area, but we have a guy on Delphi who lives there.  He hangs out in our fishing forum, and is a Bass Club member as I am.         If you would like to E-Mail to him His address is and he signs "East Pittsburg Red".  I don’t know if he fly fishes, but he does go with spinners for trout. Have a safe and fun Vist to Pa.  TTYL – good luck and good fish.  `[1;35;40m This from — The `[1;5;33;40mBassAgitator  `[1;35;40m Fred in Pa. — Glad to be here — Rainbow V 1.01 for Delphi

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