Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All that said they sure run well and only time will tell if all those moving parts really cause that much trouble. I suppose the timing belt is the big issue but I don’t see any dire warnings in my shop manual about crashed valves. From what I see the oil change is just the cost of the filter and a few bucks worth of oil (every 100 hours). Since I was burning over a pint of oil an hour that TCW3 adds up pretty fast. The reality is, if a fuel injected 2 stroke takes a crap offshore you probably ain’t fixin it either. I’ll take my chances. Being able to idle a mile up the canal and not stall in a cloud of smoke when I get close to the dock makes it all worthwhile. BTW Mercury 40-60 HPs are shipped "wet" and horizontal so leaking must not be a problem. Mine was ready to start when I opened the crate. What happens when you are 10 miles offshore and the timing belt breaks on one of these fancy new 4 strokes?  Do the valves get squashed? You may not have to mix oil with gas, but you have to change the oil and oil filter every so often.  How much will this cost?  Yamaha oil filters cost $25 to $35 a piece ! 4 strokes have more moving parts than 2 strokes – more parts to break and more expensive annual maintenance.  How much does a valve adjustment cost on one of these new 4 strokes? Many of the smaller (under 25 hp) 4 stroke outboards cannot be laid on their side because the oil sump is not sealed.  For someone like me who uses a portable 15 hp outboard on an inflatable which is deflated after every use, the 2 stroke is the only way to go.

I have a carbureted 2 stroke – no computer or electronics to crap out anytime.  7 years old and still going with only spark plug and lower gearcase lube changes.

Response:

Suzuki just came out with a 140 HP Four Stroke that weighs less than a 150 Two Stroke and has equal performance.  I think it was said earlier that you shouldn’t pull info out of your ass.  If you don’t know the facts, shut the F^ck up.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even better,  a 2002  Yamaha 40 HP 2 stroke weights 194 lbs,  and a 2002 Yamaha 40 HP 4 stroke weights 181 lbs. In other words, the Yamaha 4 stroke weights 13 lbs. LESS than the Yamaha 2 stroke in the 40 HP motor. Try checking Yamaha’s web site and the specifications pages for their motors. Just bought one and I won’t be toting around that heavy 2 cycle oil anymore either. People need to check the web  sites of these manufacturers before they start throwing out fantasy figures about weight problems with 4 strokes.  (or of course just continue to  pull figures out of your ass)

Where do these weight figures come from – a brochure or website?  Ha !!  I trust those about as much as I trust Bill Clinton !!! I bet they weighed those 4 stroke motors dry. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s see, A Yamaha 50 2 stroke weighs 194 lbs. Mercury 50 2 stroke weighs 199 lbs. Mercury 50 4 stroke weighs 236 lbs. Honda 50 4stroke weighs 202 lbs. Not exactly 80 to 100 lbs.  In fact the Honda is a whopping 8 lbs heaver than the Yamaha and 3 lbs heaver than the Merc. Yes, it appears that 4 stroke engines are the future motor.  But keep in mind that 4 stroke are heavier than the old 2 stroke.  In the 40 to 50 hp they can range from 80 to over a 100 pounds more than the 2 stroke. Interesting fact that I did not know which I receive from an old boat and motor mechanic. If you have an older boat, let’s say in the era of 1985, the boat plate may say it will take up to a 45 hp engine.  These boats were rated for 2 stroke not 4 stoke as there were not many 4 strokes around then. Putting a 4 stroke on one of these older boats will take the rear weight up almost a 100 lbs.

Response:

Even better,  a 2002  Yamaha 40 HP 2 stroke weights 194 lbs,  and a 2002 Yamaha 40 HP 4 stroke weights 181 lbs. In other words, the Yamaha 4 stroke weights 13 lbs. LESS than the Yamaha 2 stroke in the 40 HP motor.

Interesting that on the same web page, the 4 stroke Yamaha 30 weighs 198 lb. My guess, the 4 stroke 40 is listed for 181 lb with short shaft, manual start, manual tilt. The 4 stroke 30 comes only with long shaft, electric start, power trim&tilt, same as the 2 stroke 40 hp. Mod.

Response:

I bet they weighed those 4 stroke motors dry.

Yup that 3 quarts of oil and 24 oz of 90w will really pack on the pounds. Me and the truck driver picked up my 60EFI Big Foot and it was still in the crate.

Response:

What happens when you are 10 miles offshore and the timing belt breaks on one of these fancy new 4 strokes?  Do the valves get squashed? You may not have to mix oil with gas, but you have to change the oil and oil filter every so often.  How much will this cost?  Yamaha oil filters cost $25 to $35 a piece ! 4 strokes have more moving parts than 2 strokes – more parts to break and more expensive annual maintenance.  How much does a valve adjustment cost on one of these new 4 strokes? Many of the smaller (under 25 hp) 4 stroke outboards cannot be laid on their side because the oil sump is not sealed.  For someone like me who uses a portable 15 hp outboard on an inflatable which is deflated after every use, the 2 stroke is the only way to go. For most weekend boaters, the 2 stroke outboard is the more long term economic choice even if gas costs $2.50 per gallon. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

All that said they sure run well and only time will tell if all those moving parts really cause that much trouble. I suppose the timing belt is the big issue but I don’t see any dire warnings in my shop manual about crashed valves. From what I see the oil change is just the cost of the filter and a few bucks worth of oil (every 100 hours). Since I was burning over a pint of oil an hour that TCW3 adds up pretty fast. The reality is, if a fuel injected 2 stroke takes a crap offshore you probably ain’t fixin it either. I’ll take my chances. Being able to idle a mile up the canal and not stall in a cloud of smoke when I get close to the dock makes it all worthwhile. BTW Mercury 40-60 HPs are shipped "wet" and horizontal so leaking must not be a problem. Mine was ready to start when I opened the crate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What happens when you are 10 miles offshore and the timing belt breaks on one of these fancy new 4 strokes?  Do the valves get squashed? You may not have to mix oil with gas, but you have to change the oil and oil filter every so often.  How much will this cost?  Yamaha oil filters cost $25 to $35 a piece ! 4 strokes have more moving parts than 2 strokes – more parts to break and more expensive annual maintenance.  How much does a valve adjustment cost on one of these new 4 strokes? Many of the smaller (under 25 hp) 4 stroke outboards cannot be laid on their side because the oil sump is not sealed.  For someone like me who uses a portable 15 hp outboard on an inflatable which is deflated after every use, the 2 stroke is the only way to go.

Response:

One exception.  Why can’t I buy a pair of 4-stroke 150s or 175s  to replace my aging Yamahas??? pontificated: # Hello Enn, # # Thanks for the info.

My guess is this: the purveyors of such possibilities don’t yet see the market willing to pay the excessive premium they charge for their higher horsepower four stroke engines. Relative to what they’d like to charge for a four stroke 175, the two strokes of that power are inexpensive. The guys who are buying the 200-225 four strokers don’t seem to mind giving away the excessive bucks. — Harry Krause – - A red is any son-of-a-bitch who wants thirty cents when we’re paying twenty five. – John Steinbeck

Response:

Yes, it appears that 4 stroke engines are the future motor.  But keep in mind that 4 stroke are heavier than the old 2 stroke.  In the 40 to 50 hp they can range from 80 to over a 100 pounds more than the 2 stroke. Interesting fact that I did not know which I receive from an old boat and motor mechanic. If you have an older boat, let’s say in the era of 1985, the boat plate may say it will take up to a 45 hp engine.  These boats were rated for 2 stroke not 4 stoke as there were not many 4 strokes around then. Putting a 4 stroke on one of these older boats will take the rear weight up almost a 100 lbs.

Response:

Let’s see, A Yamaha 50 2 stroke weighs 194 lbs. Mercury 50 2 stroke weighs 199 lbs. Mercury 50 4 stroke weighs 236 lbs. Honda 50 4stroke weighs 202 lbs. Not exactly 80 to 100 lbs.  In fact the Honda is a whopping 8 lbs heaver than the Yamaha and 3 lbs heaver than the Merc. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, it appears that 4 stroke engines are the future motor.  But keep in mind that 4 stroke are heavier than the old 2 stroke.  In the 40 to 50 hp they can range from 80 to over a 100 pounds more than the 2 stroke. Interesting fact that I did not know which I receive from an old boat and motor mechanic. If you have an older boat, let’s say in the era of 1985, the boat plate may say it will take up to a 45 hp engine.  These boats were rated for 2 stroke not 4 stoke as there were not many 4 strokes around then. Putting a 4 stroke on one of these older boats will take the rear weight up almost a 100 lbs.

Response:

A hundred pounds out there on the end of that 12 inch jackplate on that Gambler is a little different than a gas tank in the middle of the boat.  That 4 stroke won’t work very well if it is underwater.  

Del, on the other hand, the guy with that setup doesn’t think twice about putting 200 lbs. of batteries right up against the transom, nor does he hesitate to hit the fill switch on his livewell, adding another 200 lbs. of water to the rear third of the boat.  Moving one battery forward will largely offset the penalty of a heavier motor. — Rich Stern www.nitroowners.com – The Nitro and Tracker Owners Web Site www.mypontoon.com – The Pontoon Boat Web Site

Response:

Even better,  a 2002  Yamaha 40 HP 2 stroke weights 194 lbs,  and a 2002 Yamaha 40 HP 4 stroke weights 181 lbs. In other words, the Yamaha 4 stroke weights 13 lbs. LESS than the Yamaha 2 stroke in the 40 HP motor. Try checking Yamaha’s web site and the specifications pages for their motors. Just bought one and I won’t be toting around that heavy 2 cycle oil anymore either. People need to check the web  sites of these manufacturers before they start throwing out fantasy figures about weight problems with 4 strokes.  (or of course just continue to  pull figures out of your ass) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s see, A Yamaha 50 2 stroke weighs 194 lbs. Mercury 50 2 stroke weighs 199 lbs. Mercury 50 4 stroke weighs 236 lbs. Honda 50 4stroke weighs 202 lbs. Not exactly 80 to 100 lbs.  In fact the Honda is a whopping 8 lbs heaver than the Yamaha and 3 lbs heaver than the Merc. Yes, it appears that 4 stroke engines are the future motor.  But keep in mind that 4 stroke are heavier than the old 2 stroke.  In the 40 to 50 hp they can range from 80 to over a 100 pounds more than the 2 stroke. Interesting fact that I did not know which I receive from an old boat and motor mechanic. If you have an older boat, let’s say in the era of 1985, the boat plate may say it will take up to a 45 hp engine.  These boats were rated for 2 stroke not 4 stoke as there were not many 4 strokes around then. Putting a 4 stroke on one of these older boats will take the rear weight up almost a 100 lbs.

Response:

So, what is your explanation of why there are no 150-175 HP 4strokes? del cecchi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even better,  a 2002  Yamaha 40 HP 2 stroke weights 194 lbs,  and a 2002 Yamaha 40 HP 4 stroke weights 181 lbs. In other words, the Yamaha 4 stroke weights 13 lbs. LESS than the Yamaha 2 stroke in the 40 HP motor. Try checking Yamaha’s web site and the specifications pages for their motors. Just bought one and I won’t be toting around that heavy 2 cycle oil anymore either. People need to check the web  sites of these manufacturers before they start throwing out fantasy figures about weight problems with 4 strokes.  (or of course just continue to  pull figures out of your ass) Let’s see, A Yamaha 50 2 stroke weighs 194 lbs. Mercury 50 2 stroke weighs 199 lbs. Mercury 50 4 stroke weighs 236 lbs. Honda 50 4stroke weighs 202 lbs. Not exactly 80 to 100 lbs.  In fact the Honda is a whopping 8 lbs heaver than the Yamaha and 3 lbs heaver than the Merc. Yes, it appears that 4 stroke engines are the future motor.  But keep in mind that 4 stroke are heavier than the old 2 stroke.  In the 40 to 50 hp they can range from 80 to over a 100 pounds more than the 2 stroke. Interesting fact that I did not know which I receive from an old boat and motor mechanic. If you have an older boat, let’s say in the era of 1985, the boat plate may say it will take up to a 45 hp engine.  These boats were rated for 2 stroke not 4 stoke as there were not many 4 strokes around then. Putting a 4 stroke on one of these older boats will take the rear weight up almost a 100 lbs.

Response:

I imagine bass boat guys will show up at the 4 stroke dealer when their bans 2 strokes on the lakes. I hope the manufacturers are ready for them.

Response:

| says… | | One exception.  Why can’t I buy a pair of 4-stroke 150s or 175s  to | replace my aging Yamahas??? | | pontificated: | | # Hello Enn, | # | # Thanks for the info. | | | | — | 23′ Grady White, out of Oak Island, NC. | To Mail – Remove the Bee Bees from my address. | | ______ | Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION = | http://www.binaries.net | | Because the biggest market for 150 to 175 hp is Bass Boats and a 4 | stroke 150/175 would be too heavy? | | del cecchi | | | | I think this whole over blown ,over weight thing goes out the window as | soon as you load up your coolers full of beer and and extra friend nad | top off the gas tank!! | | I remember buying a 14speed bike (with a 3lb frame) and weighing | everythin in grams to be real light. As soon as I filled my water | bottles, that theory went out the window!! A hundred pounds out there on the end of that 12 inch jackplate on that Gambler is a little different than a gas tank in the middle of the boat.  That 4 stroke won’t work very well if it is underwater.   — Del Cecchi   Personal Opinions Only

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One exception.  Why can’t I buy a pair of 4-stroke 150s or 175s  to replace my aging Yamahas??? pontificated: # Hello Enn, # # Thanks for the info. — 23′ Grady White, out of Oak Island, NC. To Mail – Remove the Bee Bees from my address.

______ Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION =

http://www.binaries.net Because the biggest market for 150 to 175 hp is Bass Boats and a 4 stroke 150/175 would be too heavy? del cecchi

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One exception.  Why can’t I buy a pair of 4-stroke 150s or 175s  to replace my aging Yamahas??? pontificated: # Hello Enn, # # Thanks for the info. — 23′ Grady White, out of Oak Island, NC. To Mail – Remove the Bee Bees from my address. ______ Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION = http://www.binaries.net Because the biggest market for 150 to 175 hp is Bass Boats and a 4 stroke 150/175 would be too heavy? del cecchi

I think this whole over blown ,over weight thing goes out the window as soon as you load up your coolers full of beer and and extra friend nad top off the gas tank!! I remember buying a 14speed bike (with a 3lb frame) and weighing everythin in grams to be real light. As soon as I filled my water bottles, that theory went out the window!!

Response:

Hello Enn, Thanks for the info. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Same in all European countries. Hi All, I just read a good article in the latest issue of "Saltwater Flyfishing" magazine by veteran outdoor writer Bob Stearns. He states that 2 stroke motors are on the way out and that 4 strokes are going to be taking over the US market. I know this will be the fact in the United States but I can’t say much about other countries. Keep this in mind when buying a used or new boat. — Bill Kiene

Response:

Same in all European countries. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I just read a good article in the latest issue of "Saltwater Flyfishing" magazine by veteran outdoor writer Bob Stearns. He states that 2 stroke motors are on the way out and that 4 strokes are going to be taking over the US market. I know this will be the fact in the United States but I can’t say much about other countries. Keep this in mind when buying a used or new boat. — Bill Kiene

Response:

Hi All, I just read a good article in the latest issue of "Saltwater Flyfishing" magazine by veteran outdoor writer Bob Stearns. He states that 2 stroke motors are on the way out and that 4 strokes are going to be taking over the US market. I know this will be the fact in the United States but I can’t say much about other countries. Keep this in mind when buying a used or new boat. — Bill Kiene

Response:

Question:

like a good time was had by all…… –walt

Response:

like a good time was had by all……

It was a great trip. A great Winter fishing fix. Lots of greasy food, liquor, short restless nights etc. that make a man my age regret his age the next morning. Lots of assorted grumblings about various bodily ailments throughout the group. Aging, ain’t it wonderful! There were quite a few people there on the weekend but on Monday and Tuesday, we essentially had the river to ourselves. Fishing was alittle slower with more smaller, 14 to 16 inch, fish than last year probably because of the murky water. Everybody did get into some good ones though. We did get some good dry fly action the last two days. That was a kick. I pointed out what I thought was a sweet young thing to Warren but he thought she was too chubby and passed on her, but I guess all those young things look good to a man my age. She even caught more fish than Warren. I did my best to hook him up by volunteering Warren to be a netting gilly for her when she landed her fish, but to no avail. Willi

Response:

It was a great trip. A great Winter fishing fix. Lots of greasy food, liquor, short restless nights etc. that make a man my age regret his age the next morning. Lots of assorted grumblings about various bodily ailments throughout the group. Aging, ain’t it wonderful!

  Your age?  I thought Warren was older than you.  He certainly looked it in the mornings:)  I was a bit less "creaky" than normal.  The Ketoprofen 200 mg seemed to do the trick for my Osteoarthritis affected toes.  And, I felt great the next morning due to doctor mandated cutback in beer consumption.  Heck, I even brought beer back.  Hey, speaking of beer, I’m always getting crap about my "ol Mil but noticed that, after hiking up the hill, several of you guys drank it! Now that I’m back home, it’s back to water and diet Pepsi.  Bummer. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Question:

I saw this thing being advertised on Ebay and I had to go to Leica’s site to see if it was for real.  It was.  What’s next?  Kodak starts making Brownie Starflash remakes for $500?

Response:

Leica’s site to see if it was for real.  It was.  What’s next?  Kodak starts making Brownie Starflash remakes for $500? The Leica "O" has a great little recomputed 50 F/3.5 Elmar (4 element Tessar formula) lens! The Leica folks at Solms say is just the thing for reducing stress by freeing the photographer from the modern techno-wonder SLR! Using the "O" is like going fly fishing they say! Doug from Tumwater

Response:

Question:

Bob: <<I’ve been flyfishing a small gravel pond lake for bass and walleyes for a couple of years now. Everyday is different. Somedays, the largemouths are eager eaters, other days they won’t take anything. One technique I’ve been using with alot of success is to get into a rowboat and let the wind drift me across the lake…fly on a sinking line trolling at the wind’s speed. Surprisingly, alot of bass take the fly. Yesterday at sun’s zenith, I stopped my drift and anchored in a spot where I thought some fat perch or walleyes might be hanging out. I cast the fast sink line with a red and brown glass-bead streamer about seventy feet out and let it sink to the bottom. A few quick jigs, and the old lady of the lake, the one I had heard about, ate. She took line and bent the 6 wgt. GLoomis so the tip was touching the water. She was old and she was beautiful. Bob E. George? Dave LaCourse

Response:

Dave, No George anywhere near here. Just Bob, bobbing around Gravel Ponds Lake near Rochester, NY. Bob E.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bob: <<I’ve been flyfishing a small gravel pond lake for bass and walleyes for a couple of years now. Everyday is different. Somedays, the largemouths are eager eaters, other days they won’t take anything. One technique I’ve been using with alot of success is to get into a rowboat and let the wind drift me across the lake…fly on a sinking line trolling at the wind’s speed. Surprisingly, alot of bass take the fly. Yesterday at sun’s zenith, I stopped my drift and anchored in a spot where I thought some fat perch or walleyes might be hanging out. I cast the fast sink line with a red and brown glass-bead streamer about seventy feet out and let it sink to the bottom. A few quick jigs, and the old lady of the lake, the one I had heard about, ate. She took line and bent the 6 wgt. GLoomis so the tip was touching the water. She was old and she was beautiful. Bob E. George? Dave LaCourse

Response:

Bob: <<No George anywhere near here. Just Bob, bobbing around Gravel Ponds Lake near Rochester, NY. Ahhhh, Rochester, NY.  Home of J.W. Dundee’s Honey Brown and other fine elixirs.  Not too far away from where Sleeman’s is brewed.   Dave L.

Response:

Dave, So many brews around here it makes the mind boggle. Bob E.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bob: <<No George anywhere near here. Just Bob, bobbing around Gravel Ponds Lake near Rochester, NY. Ahhhh, Rochester, NY.  Home of J.W. Dundee’s Honey Brown and other fine elixirs.  Not too far away from where Sleeman’s is brewed. Dave L.

Response:

Speaking of Dundee’s Honey Brown: Though it’s a mere lager, it’s a damned tasty one, and I confess that I’ve developed quite a jag for that stuff. And frankly speaking (Peter: avert thine eyes) prefer it to both of the Sleeman’s brews that – while very pleasant indeed and very much appreciated – lack the punch of the Dundee’s… There. I said it. I’ve been holding that back for weeks, but now it’s out there. /daytripper (sipping a Honey Brown even as I type this ;^)

        confession, tripper, is good for the soul.         wayno

Response:

Ahhhh, Rochester, NY.  Home of J.W. Dundee’s Honey Brown and other fine elixirs.  Not too far away from where Sleeman’s is brewed.

Speaking of Dundee’s Honey Brown: Though it’s a mere lager, it’s a damned tasty one, and I confess that I’ve developed quite a jag for that stuff. And frankly speaking (Peter: avert thine eyes) prefer it to both of the Sleeman’s brews that – while very pleasant indeed and very much appreciated – lack the punch of the Dundee’s… There. I said it. I’ve been holding that back for weeks, but now it’s out there. /daytripper (sipping a Honey Brown even as I type this ;^)

Response:

You are fortunate indeed, Tripper, that Peter is on holiday.  But there are other Sleeman’s afficianados around here to whom you will have to answer on judgment day, which will come sooner than you might think. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And frankly speaking (Peter: avert thine eyes) prefer it to both of the Sleeman’s brews that – while very pleasant indeed and very much appreciated – lack the punch of the Dundee’s… There. I said it. I’ve been holding that back for weeks, but now it’s out there. /daytripper (sipping a Honey Brown even as I type this ;^)

Response:

You are fortunate indeed, Tripper, that Peter is on holiday.  But there are other Sleeman’s afficianados around here to whom you will have to answer on judgment day, which will come sooner than you might think.

Yup, I reckon that I’ll have drawn the wrath of many sudsy souls hereabouts. Wouldn’t be the first time (and prolly won’t be the last ;^) As American politics points out repeatedly, the majority is often more wrong than right… Still…Dundee’s is an excellent substitute for the even hardier brews that I favor but that require a trip to the local pub to obtain. So I tip my second Honey Brown to you reprobates that drink beer from clear glass bottles. You know not what you do… /daytripper (hic!)

Response:

confession, tripper, is good for the soul. wayno

And beer is good for the kidneys ! But not if you hold it back for weeks ! I can not eat but little meat, my stomach is not good, but sure I think that I can drink, as much as any would, Let the back and the sides go bare me boys, let the hands and the feet grow cold, but give to the belly good ale enough, whether it be new or old ! TL MC

Response:

Mark Faulkner writes:

<<You are fortunate indeed, Tripper, that Peter is on holiday.  But there are other Sleeman’s afficianados around here to whom you will have to answer on judgment day, which will come sooner than you might think. Mark Faulkner Peter is on holiday and will spend the evening of the 6th with Jo and me.  I *know* he wouldn’t show up without any Sleeman’s, but whether or not I can make it to the fall ball with it is quite another thing.  Oh, yeah, I forgot.  I found *three* of the little devils in the fridge today.  Musta forgot about ‘em. There be only one left.  Come on August 6th……. You want I should bring some Dundee’s HBs to NC in October? Dave LaCourse

Response:

Well, you guys are making me homesick.  I was born in Rochester and grew up in Webster, Warsaw, Corning, Hornell and finally in Penn Yan, NY on Keuka Lake. For the past nineteen years I’ve been in the Navy, and recently my flies have been seeking fish in the warm tidal rivers, creeks and lakes of Hampton Roads, Virginia where we catch some real nice large mouth bass, Perch, Bluegills and such.  All great fun, but still not the same as our more Northern aquatic friends.  Anyhow, it’s good to hear the stories from back home, I’ll be back there in another year or so.  Take care all, and good fishing! Butch

Response:

Not so bad in my book, snagger.  Those bass can be outstanding on a fly rod, and the bluegills and perch are tasty indeed. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, you guys are making me homesick.  I was born in Rochester and grew up in Webster, Warsaw, Corning, Hornell and finally in Penn Yan, NY on Keuka Lake. For the past nineteen years I’ve been in the Navy, and recently my flies have been seeking fish in the warm tidal rivers, creeks and lakes of Hampton Roads, Virginia where we catch some real nice large mouth bass, Perch, Bluegills and such.  All great fun, but still not the same as our more Northern aquatic friends.  Anyhow, it’s good to hear the stories from back home, I’ll be back there in another year or so.  Take care all, and good fishing! Butch

Response:

Butch writes:

<<Well, you guys are making me homesick.  I was born in Rochester and grew up in Webster, Warsaw, Corning, Hornell and finally in Penn Yan, NY on Keuka Lake. For the past nineteen years I’ve been in the Navy, and recently my flies have been seeking fish in the warm tidal rivers, creeks and lakes of Hampton Roads, Virginia where we catch some real nice large mouth bass, Perch, Bluegills and such.  All great fun, but still not the same as our more Northern aquatic friends.  Anyhow, it’s good to hear the stories from back home, I’ll be back there in another year or so.  Take care all, and good fishing! Welcome aboard, DeepSnag.  I retired from  Mother Nav in 1975.  There are other retirees in ROFF, and Tom Brown, a regular ROFF poster, has a son on USS Nicholas FFG47.  You’re with family.  ’Course, we got lots of no-account lawyers and folks with "edu" in their address, but as a whole, they’re pretty neat. They’re worth going fishing with, anyway.  Let’s hear more from you. Dave LaCourse, USN (Ret)

Response:

Well, you guys are making me homesick.  I was born in Rochester and grew up in Webster, Warsaw, Corning, Hornell and finally in Penn Yan, NY on Keuka Lake. For the past nineteen years I’ve been in the Navy, and recently my flies have been seeking fish in the warm tidal rivers, creeks and lakes of Hampton Roads, Virginia where we catch some real nice large mouth bass, Perch, Bluegills and such.  All great fun, but still not the same as our more Northern aquatic friends.  Anyhow, it’s good to hear the stories from back home, I’ll be back there in another year or so.  Take care all, and good fishing! Butch

Congratulations DeepSnag for sticking it out with the USN. I still remember the anticipation of counting down the years, months and days till retirement. Nothing like it. Best decision I ever made. Don’t know about you but my 20 yrs went by really fast. Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED

Response:

Welcome aboard, DeepSnag.  I retired from  Mother Nav in 1975.  There are other retirees in ROFF, and Tom Brown, a regular ROFF poster, has a son on USS Nicholas FFG47.  You’re with family.  ’Course, we got lots of no-account lawyers and folks with "edu" in their address, but as a whole, they’re pretty neat. They’re worth going fishing with, anyway.  Let’s hear more from you. Dave LaCourse, USN (Ret)

I’ll have to put in a plug for my son here…Navy Chaplain serving aboard the USS Rainier out of Bremerton, WA. I’m proud of this guy and wish he was geographically closer. He has plans to stay…another 7 yrs to retirement. Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED

Response:

I’ve been flyfishing a small gravel pond lake for bass and walleyes for a couple of years now. Everyday is different. Somedays, the largemouths are eager eaters, other days they won’t take anything. One technique I’ve been using with alot of success is to get into a rowboat and let the wind drift me across the lake…fly on a sinking line trolling at the wind’s speed. Surprisingly, alot of bass take the fly. Yesterday at sun’s zenith, I stopped my drift and anchored in a spot where I thought some fat perch or walleyes might be hanging out. I cast the fast sink line with a red and brown glass-bead streamer about seventy feet out and let it sink to the bottom. A few quick jigs, and the old lady of the lake, the one I had heard about, ate. She took line and bent the 6 wgt. GLoomis so the tip was touching the water. She was old and she was beautiful. Bob E.

Response:

Frank Church writes:

<<I’ll have to put in a plug for my son here…Navy Chaplain serving aboard the USS Rainier out of Bremerton, WA. I’m proud of this guy and wish he was geographically closer. He has plans to stay…another 7 yrs to retirement. Hey, congratulations, Frank.  I can imagine how  very proud you are of him.  The Rainier is an oiler (AOE), so I bet he is at sea a lot.  Does he also FF? Dave LaCourse

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Frank Church writes: <<I’ll have to put in a plug for my son here…Navy Chaplain serving aboard the USS Rainier out of Bremerton, WA. I’m proud of this guy and wish he was geographically closer. He has plans to stay…another 7 yrs to retirement. Hey, congratulations, Frank.  I can imagine how  very proud you are of him.  The Rainier is an oiler (AOE), so I bet he is at sea a lot.  Does he also FF? Dave LaCourse

his third or 4th one. The assignment he liked best was being attached to the USMC as unit chaplain at Camp Lejuene..he got out there and humped on the marches and hikes with the grunts. On his way (with family) to Naples (?) for 3 yrs in Jan.  His job will be to travel all over Europe, sort of a military circuit rider. Man, am I jealous! Afraid he doesn’t FF…his avocation and vocation take up all his time and right now he has no interest in fishing of any kind. Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED

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[deleted] So I tip my second Honey Brown to you reprobates that drink beer from clear glass bottles. You know not what you do…

[deleted] Honey in beer ! Egads man…have you no taste ?!?!?! Honey belongs on peanut butter sandwiches, not in beer. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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[deleted] So I tip my second Honey Brown to you reprobates that drink beer from clear glass bottles. You know not what you do… Honey in beer ! Egads man…have you no taste ?!?!?! Honey belongs on peanut butter sandwiches, not in beer.

Ah, if you only had a clue, Tim… /daytripper (tonite, it’s Concord Pale Ale, fresh from the brewery. Yummy!)

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Question:

The first time I fished the Rapid River with Dave, we caught many salmon.  The next year, we did the same.   Jerry Schrader Schrader Photo http://www.weddingphoto-ma.com

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Jerry Schrader: <<The first time I fished the Rapid River with Dave, we caught many salmon. The next year, we did the same. Shhhhhhhhh, Jerry.  Remember, there are NO fish in Maine except pickeral and bass. Dave LaCourse

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Dave Tatosian: (snipped) <<- and for God’s sake: don’t tell anyone about this place! ;^) Oh, the word is out, Dave.  Unfortunately.  But I know folks that have been there and won’t go back because they didn’t catch any fish.  Being put on a body of water with salmon and trout doesn’t mean you can *catch* them.  It is a special river that requires years to learn.  I’ve seen "outsider" guides have a zilch day when all the "regulars" were taking fish. Salmon for breakfast —– oh, if only I could have some of Jan’s fresh salmon with bacon.  BTW, Stan does much of the breakfast cooking.  I can tell the difference between their scrambled eggs – Stan’s are fluffier. Dave LaCourse

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Jerry Schrader: I have stayed at Lakewood Camps several times, and loved every minute.  It’s very rustic, with anchient trappers cabins, and excellent food and menu.  I woild recommend it highly, but don’t look for cable tv.  Bring your sleeping bag, the cabins are not insulated, andif it’s chilly, the woodstove burns out in 2 hours. It *is* rustic.  The cabins date to the early 1900s and, as Jerry says, are not insulated.  There has been a fishing camp (called a "sporting camp") at Lakewood for over a hundred years.  No need to bring your sleeping bags, Jerry.  Every cabin has plenty of blankets on the comfortable beds, and if more is needed, there are comforters provided by Sue. A little trick with the woodsoves:  go behind Stan and Sue’s quarters and get BIG pieces of wood instead of the small pieces supplied in the cabins. But most of all:  the fishing is always great.  Catching can also be good. Dave LaCourse

I’ll add: – by the end of a long day of enjoying the river – and stuffed with the best camp cooking you’ll ever find (and a few gin and tonics if you please ;^) – you’ll conk out under your pile of blankets so fast you won’t care that the fire dies down in a couple of hours. – the brisk morning air will help you to pop out of bed to get in an hour of fishing before the marvelous breakfasts that the cook (Janne Provincer) provides. (btw: If you’re lucky enough to catch a good keeper salmon, have it baked for breakfast with a few strips of bacon draped over it. Yum!) – don’t *ever* try to sneak into the main building with your waders on (Sue will feed your privates to the crawfish!) – and for God’s sake: don’t tell anyone about this place! ;^) /dave ps: Louise Dickenson Rich wrote a series of novels about the river from Richardson Lake down to Umbagog, and the people of her times there. "We Took To The Woods" is an excellent winter read, as is the sequel "My Neck Of The Woods". You’ll find some outstanding photos that show things as they were around 60 years back…

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Jerry Schrader: <<I have stayed at Lakewood Camps several times, and loved every minute.  It’s very rustic, with anchient trappers cabins, and excellent food and menu.  I woild recommend it highly, but don’t look for cable tv.  Bring your sleeping bag, the cabins are not insulated, andif it’s chilly, the woodstove burns out in 2 hours.   It *is* rustic.  The cabins date to the early 1900s and, as Jerry says, are not insulated.  There has been a fishing camp (called a "sporting camp") at Lakewood for over a hundred years.  No need to bring your sleeping bags, Jerry.  Every cabin has plenty of blankets on the comfortable beds, and if more is needed, there are comforters provided by Sue. A little trick with the woodsoves:  go behind Stan and Sue’s quarters and get BIG pieces of wood instead of the small pieces supplied in the cabins. But most of all:  the fishing is always great.  Catching can also be good. Dave LaCourse

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I have stayed at Lakewood Camps several times, and loved every minute.  It’s very rustic, with anchient trappers cabins, and excellent food and menu.  I woild recommend it highly, but don’t look for cable tv.  Bring your sleeping bag, the cabins are not insulated, andif it’s chilly, the woodstove burns out in 2 hours.   Jerry Schrader Schrader Photo http://www.weddingphoto-ma.com

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Dave would you have any addreses, either e-mail or landmail for the above camps?Thanks for the help ,Ralph

Hi Ralph. Here are contacts for Grant’s and Lakewood. Grant’s Kennebago Camps P.O. Box 786 Rangely, Maine  04970 (207) 864-3608 summer (207) 282-5264 winter (800) 633-4815 out of state Lakewood Camps P.O. Address Andover, Maine 04216 Phone 207-392-1581 I’ll see if I can dig up an "off season" phone number for Lakewood. While Stan and Sue Milton close down the camp for the winter, they have been working at Sunday River (ski area) while there’s snow so they’re somewhere in the area. But I’m not sure if they have the camp number ring at their winter quarters. Again, if there’s an outdoor show (as usual) at Worcester, that’d be a great place to meet the various camp operators. Regards, /dave

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m giving some thought, although it’s very early, as to where to go flyfishing in Maine this coming Spring. Would be very grateful for any recent opinions and experiences at: Grant’s Bosebuck Tim Pond Libby’s I’ve stayed at all but Libby’s in the last 20 years, but as you want "recent", that cuts it down to Grant’s three years ago, one week after the July 4th drake hatch: great fishing on both Big Kennebago Lake and the river below the dam, good food, good accomodations. You might also want to include Lakewood Camps on Richardson Lake on your list. The best food you’ll ever find at a camp, good fishing, great folks running the place… Assuming there’s an "outdoors show" at Worcester this spring, that’d be a good place to meet some of the camp operators… /dave Dave would you have any addreses, either e-mail or landmail for the above

camps?Thanks for the help ,Ralph

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Dave Tatosian: <<You might also want to include Lakewood Camps on Richardson Lake on your list. The best food you’ll ever find at a camp, good fishing, great folks running the place… Assuming there’s an "outdoors show" at Worcester this spring, that’d be a good place to meet some of the camp operators… I concur with Dave — best fishin and best camp.  Stan and Sue Milton run a classy joint with great fishing and food at a very resonable price.  E-mail me for their phone number. Expect anything with the Libby name to be a class act.  Great people and they have been doing it for years.  Please e-mail me if you want Mat Libby’s e-mail address.   Dave LaCourse

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I’m giving some thought, although it’s very early, as to where to go flyfishing in Maine this coming Spring. Would be very grateful for any recent opinions and experiences at: Grant’s Bosebuck Tim Pond Libby’s

I’ve stayed at all but Libby’s in the last 20 years, but as you want "recent", that cuts it down to Grant’s three years ago, one week after the July 4th drake hatch: great fishing on both Big Kennebago Lake and the river below the dam, good food, good accomodations. You might also want to include Lakewood Camps on Richardson Lake on your list. The best food you’ll ever find at a camp, good fishing, great folks running the place… Assuming there’s an "outdoors show" at Worcester this spring, that’d be a good place to meet some of the camp operators… /dave

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10/28/98 Hello: I’m giving some thought, although it’s very early, as to where to go flyfishing in Maine this coming Spring. Would be very grateful for any recent opinions and experiences at:                                     Grant’s                                     Bosebuck                                     Tim Pond                                     Libby’s Thanks, Bob Rose

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Question:

Does anyone know some good small streams around portland?

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Yeah, this is a hard question to get an answer to.   I THINK the best tactic is to look southeast of Portland, in the foothills of Mt Hood, but the locals don’t weant to talk much.  E-mail one of the flyshops up there and see what they say.  All else fails, try the streams around Breitenbush. — Ken Brown Satis elequontiae, sapientiae parum.

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Question:

OK Tim.  Your punishment is to suffer 30 lashes with a #1 fly line, then stand naked in the sun and recite the following: This is my rod I called it a pole I ask god’s forgiveness to save my poor soul. —                                                            -dnc- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess I have to invest in another pole. Timothy Murphrey North Pole Alaska Timothy, the word is "rod", not pole.  You use garden hackle when you fish with a pole, you know those wiggly things. Ernie Harrison

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Tim, See what I mean? —                                                            -dnc- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ernie Harrison writes: Timothy, the word is "rod", not pole.  You use garden hackle when you fish with a pole, you know those wiggly things. Ernie Harrison The difference between a "rod" and a "pole" is about $350. Dave L.

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Hey, never mind. The silicon jelly I have works fine on dry flies. My wife and I went fishing on a pond just near the house, which is stocked with trout. Not bad for my second time. I even learned a few things, and what’s more, I think I retained the knowledge of  said lessons!  Even my wife tried it out(she’s not much for fishing), and she really likes fly fishing now, so I guess I have to invest in another pole. By the way, there’s some lakes here with pike in them. They behave differently (a little) from river pike. Would they hit flies, and what kind? Timothy Murphrey North Pole Alaska

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I guess I have to invest in another pole. Timothy Murphrey North Pole Alaska

Timothy, the word is "rod", not pole.  You use garden hackle when you fish with a pole, you know those wiggly things. Ernie Harrison

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Ernie Harrison writes:

I guess I have to invest in another pole. Timothy Murphrey North Pole Alaska

Timothy, the word is "rod", not pole.  You use garden hackle when you fish with a pole, you know those wiggly things. Ernie Harrison The difference between a "rod" and a "pole" is about $350. Dave L.

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Question:

Does anyone know of a good place to get away for some good fly fishing?  I am willing to hike 4-8 miles in order to find some seclusion and good fly angling.  I’m thinking of going somewhere near the Emigrant Wilderness area early next month.  If your spot is top secret, please Email me directly and I’ll use it very discretely.  Thanks for the good help.

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I will be going into the high country out of Kings Canyone later this month – 10,000′ and up. I inherited a fly rod & reel, and will be taking it along to experiment. I have caught a few trout with it already. I would appreciate any reccomendatiions on what works best in that area as far as fly selections. I will stock up a bit, but can’t get too carried away with gear. Thanks Brian Millin

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I will be going into the high country out of Kings Canyone later this month – 10,000′ and up. <snip I would appreciate any reccomendatiions on what works best in that area as far as fly selections. <snip

Brian, This is almost too easy.  You can catch fish in the high country on just about anything.  Last week I had a brookie hit my strike indicator, and wouldn’t let go! The streams between lakes, and where streams enter lakes are great spots to fish, but you probably already know this.  You can keep your fly selection very limited and simple.  Sizes 12, 14, 16 mainly.  Take along some Adams or Bi-visibles or Royal Wulffs, Gold Ribbed Hares Ear Nymphs, a Wooley Bugger or two.  These fish will NOT be selective.   Be sure to fish barbless, because you’ll catch way to many to keep them all, plus you want to release them fast to catch some more.  Fish every little pocket and seam, cover the water thoroughly, you won’t be disappointed. Write back when you return, Bruce

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Does anyone know of a good place to get away for some good fly fishing?  I am willing to hike 4-8 miles in order to find some seclusion and good fly angling.  I’m thinking of going somewhere near the Emigrant Wilderness area early next month.  If your spot is top secret, please Email me directly and I’ll use it very discretely.  Thanks for the good help.

As far as I’m concerned, the Emigrant Wilderness offers the best fishing to be found in the Sierra backcountry.  I can count on rainbows and brookies in the 18" to 20" range on most of my trips now.  I’ve found the key to good lake fishing is getting in the water.  That plus my black wooly buggers.  The only problem (or saving grace?) with the Emigrant Wilderness is that all of the worthwhile destinations begin at about the 15 mile mark.  So it doesn’t offer much to the weekender. If you’ve got the time, I suggest you contact the Kennedy Meadows Resort (1-209-965-3900) for horse packing information.  A pack trip is fairly inexpensive, you can get a long ways into the mountains and you can live slightly above the austere level of the shoe-buckeroo.  I would be happy to help you get hooked up on a trip, as I do a bit of cooking for the pack station from time to time.

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Question:

I am seeking advice on where to fly fish in the Breckenridge area this weekend (18-20 February). Also, most of my fly fishing has occurred on alpine lakes, i.e. I am a relative novice in stream fishing. Thus any advice would be helpful, too. Please add if I will need waders to fish (I don’t have any, but I could borrow some). I really appreciate any help.                 Thanks,                  Matt

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I am going to be in the Breckenridge, CO area this weekend (18-20 February) and would like some advice on where to fish. Also, most of my experience is fishing in alpine lakes, i.e. I have minimal experience in stream fishing. Thus any advice would be appreciated (especially types of flies). Please add if I will need waders to fish (don’t have any, but I can borrow some if necessary). I really appreciate any advice.                         Thanks,                           Matt Linnell

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Question:

Introducing a new catalog featuring custom flyfishing tackle. For a free catalog, send your name and address to : or by U.S. Mail to:      Jordon Creek Outfitters      PO Box 302      Orefield, Pennsylvania 18069 Thanks for the interest.

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Sure, please send me a copy of your catalog: John Wernet 1022 Timber Creek Drive Grand Ledge, MI  48837

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writes: For a free catalog, send your name and address to :

Sure, please send me a copy of your catalog: John Wernet 1022 Timber Creek Drive Grand Ledge, MI  48837

Please, not this again. If you take the trouble to cite "For a free catalog, send your the  trouble to READ it? It says: (I’ll paraphrase and capitalize, for the literacy impaired)  SEND ME EMAIL.DON’T POST YOUR REQUEST TOTHE NEWSGROUP.  REALLY. You quoted it yourself, right? Please excuse the rant, but this one deserved a public flogging. Chris Knight Syracuse NY

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Please send a free flyfishing catalog to: Don Dodson # 8 Didrickson Lane Amarillo, TX  79124 Thank you

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Please send a free flyfishing catalog to: Don Dodson # 8 Didrickson Lane Amarillo, TX  79124 Thank you

I propose that we each e-mail a 10Meg core dump to the next person who posts a request like this to the group.   Please read the original post, it asks you to e-mail to Sean Brennan (.std disclaimers)

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Please send a catalog. Stephen Feinberg 131 High St. Hastings NY 10706         thx

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