Question:

 Why bright orange ?   Hunters ?

Obviously, you don’t read InStyle magazine.  Get with the program. Mu

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Every time I see the title of this thread I shudder, and I think, no . . . there’s no way I can comment at all on someone’s butt leak. I’m still shuddering. Memphis Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been through several pairs of various breathable waders too damn quickly …. they all developed leaks in the rear I’m sure this is because I fish from a kickboat a lot and the kicking while sitting on a fairly hard surface stresses the membrane under my rear and causes it to fail before I rush out to spend the big bucks on Sims …. will they stand up to this use?  I’ve heard enough " the very best" reports about them to believe they are the best and tough in "normal" use … but I’m not sure my lard ass kickin round the pond is normal Anyone used Sim guides for a LONG time with LOTS of kickboat time …. or should I just stick with my old neoprenes for that use? —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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I fish around 60  days a year, and that will be going up ( assuming enough snow to make water to fish in) to around 100, as I am now semi-retired I am getting Sims, waiting for the G3’s.  I will use them for all wade fishing, where my kickboat isn’t a factor. But the real reason for my post was to see if the "seat crunching, material sliding on itself under pressure" deal of kickboat use ( both kicking and rowing cause this sliding)  is simply beyond "breathable" technology. If breathables can be made to last, they are ideal.  Since most of your body is out of the water, rowing or kicking, breathable is literally "cool" but when you stop to wade fish, leaks are far too cool. FWIW, I just this minute called Simms and the nice lady told me that "guide input" was a a reason the G3’s will have a greatly tougher "rear" and, implied that they have had problems with the membrane breaking down under lots of "kickboat" use ( rowing a drift boat would be the same, btw ) and felt the new design would solve the problem …but "Nothing is infallible." I have good 5mm neoprenes, but roast in them, maybe I’ll try some 3mm, or a second pair of cheaper breathables for when I drift rivers in the watermaster or fish still waters using it Then again, maybe I’ll just use the Simms and end up with a sad tale, or great product testimonial —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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hehe …sorry most of the outdoorsmen I know aren’t that sensitive. I’ll be more careful in the future …. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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  If you have to hike long distances to get to your spots and you wear   your waders, you’ll eventually blow out the seams or the neoprene in the   feet. More and more, I find myself packing my waders and a pair of   lightweight boots until I get there.   That’s where most of my wear comes from. You can go through lots of felts that way. I also wear out the insides of the legs of my waders. Like you pointed out to me, I sound like a kid with new corduroys when I walk in my waders. I think I’ll continue to wear them out this way because I don’t like to fish with a pack on my back and I’m either too absent minded or get too preoccupied when fishing to remember picking up a pack when I put it down. Willi

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FWIW, I just this minute called Simms and the nice lady told me that "guide input" was a a reason the G3’s will have a greatly tougher "rear" and, implied that they have had problems with the membrane breaking down under lots of "kickboat" use ( rowing a drift boat would be the same, btw ) and felt the new design would solve the problem …but "Nothing is infallible."

Blaze orange neoprene butt pads ought to be integral to every pair of waders – that is if you don;t mind looking like an orangutan in heat. Mu

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This one’s easy, never eat olestra while flyfishing. Your pal, — TBone

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Why bright orange ?   Hunters ? Not a bad idea. A camper got shot on the AT here in Georgia the other day. I was surprised to learn that it is even legal to shoot *from* the trail. — Charlie…

Much of the Appalachian Trail is on private property and exists there only by the grace of individual land owners.  Where this is the case, I suspect that by and large it’s use is not governed by any official regulation beyond that which applies to private land use in general.  Where one may or may not discharge a firearm legally probably varies somewhat from state to state, but here in Wisconsin hiking trails on private property are not subject to the same restrictions as say, improved roads, where one may not shoot from the road surface itself or anywhere within a certain distance from it.  I’m guessing that most states are similar in this regard. Wolfgang

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Much of the Appalachian Trail is on private property and exists there only by the grace of individual land owners.  Where this is the case, I suspect that by and large it’s use is not governed by any official regulation beyond that which applies to private land use in general.  Where one may or may not discharge a firearm legally probably varies somewhat from state to state, but here in Wisconsin hiking trails on private property are not subject to the same restrictions as say, improved roads, where one may not shoot from the road surface itself or anywhere within a certain distance from it.  I’m guessing that most states are similar in this regard.

I’m sure you are correct. I said I was surprised, not shocked, simply because I hadn’t thought it through. I often fish close to the trail and had a misguided sense that I was safer there than away from it. It makes perfect sense, though, that hunters would also use the trail for access, etc. — Charlie…

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 I’ve heard gunshots the last two times I was out fishing.  Made me wish that I had put some orange reflective tape  on the back of my wading jacket, as I’ve been meaning  to, for the past year

Same thing happened here last week. I forgot it was the first day of firearms season for deer. Heard three gunshots during while on the stream, and also wished I had a blaze orange hat or jacket. To top it off, this was the first time in about three years that I had fished this particular stretch of water, and I hoped the fishing had improved. It hadn’t. Bob

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Same thing happened here last week. I forgot it was the first day of firearms season for deer. Heard three gunshots during while on the stream, and also wished I had a blaze orange hat or jacket. To top it off, this was the first time in about three years that I had fished this particular stretch of water, and I hoped the fishing had improved. It hadn’t. Bob  The stretch of water Scott and I were on, according  to various and sundry Highly Reliable Witnesses we  ran into, was great fishing two weeks before, one week  before, the previous Tuesday, the previous Thursday  and hell, even the day before, and … you know the  punchline.  Remove "XYZ" from email address

But we did hear gunshots!!! — Scott Reverse first field of address to reply

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I read this and thought "Who nicked the duck?"

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Hi All, Another story: I had a custom is this fall who was going to Montana and wanted new waders for the trip. He said he had bought 3 different under $200 brands of imported waders (which I won’t mention) over the past few years and had problems with them all because he was a very active stream fly fisher. He said some of the ffing guides he has met and some of his friends bragged about the Simms Guide model Gore-Tex waders so he was going to finally move up to them ($330US for 2003). If you actually fish a lot and are young and/or strong,  you will good through most entry level products. Many ffers don’t actually get out much, so the less expensive gear works for them. Actually, you can now buy a "made in USA" breathable wader from Simms that is leak tested at their plant in Montana for $149US. This should out sell most all the sub-$200 imports. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been through several pairs of various breathable waders too damn quickly …. they all developed leaks in the rear I’m sure this is because I fish from a kickboat a lot and the kicking while sitting on a fairly hard surface stresses the membrane under my rear and causes it to fail before I rush out to spend the big bucks on Sims …. will they stand up to this use?  I’ve heard enough " the very best" reports about them to believe they are the best and tough in "normal" use … but I’m not sure my lard ass kickin round the pond is normal Anyone used Sim guides for a LONG time with LOTS of kickboat time …. or should I just stick with my old neoprenes for that use? —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, Another story: I had a custom is this fall who was going to Montana and wanted new waders for the trip. He said he had bought 3 different under $200 brands of imported waders (which I won’t mention) over the past few years and had problems with them all because he was a very active stream fly fisher. He said some of the ffing guides he has met and some of his friends bragged about the Simms Guide model Gore-Tex waders so he was going to finally move up to them ($330US for 2003). If you actually fish a lot and are young and/or strong,  you will good through most entry level products. Many ffers don’t actually get out much, so the less expensive gear works for them.

I find that what’s hell on waders isn’t wading — it’s hiking through lots of prickly stuff, like wild roses and blackberries, and falling on your ass (no "butt leaks" yet, however). I look for pinhole leaks about every half dozen times I fish on my homewaters. If you have to hike long distances to get to your spots and you wear your waders, you’ll eventually blow out the seams or the neoprene in the feet. More and more, I find myself packing my waders and a pair of lightweight boots until I get there.

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I’ve been through several pairs of various breathable waders too damn quickly …. they all developed leaks in the rear I’m sure this is because I fish from a kickboat a lot and the kicking while sitting on a fairly hard surface stresses the membrane under my rear and causes it to fail before I rush out to spend the big bucks on Sims …. will they stand up to this use?  I’ve heard enough " the very best" reports about them to believe they are the best and tough in "normal" use … but I’m not sure my lard ass kickin round the pond is normal Anyone used Sim guides for a LONG time with LOTS of kickboat time …. or should I just stick with my old neoprenes for that use? —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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<snip Anyone used Sim guides for a LONG time with LOTS of kickboat time …. or should I just stick with my old neoprenes for that use?

I have a pair of Simms Guide Weights that I’ve used a fair amount in my float tube without any leak problems in the butt area.  However, because I thought that that might be a problem for any breathables, I always wear an old worn out pair of neoprenes from which I’ve cut off most of the legs and left only enough of the top portion for the suspenders (looks like a pair of lederhosen) over the breathables. Bob Weinberger

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I’ve never had a "butt leak" (an unfelicitous phrase, if ever I’ve heard one) in my Simm’s breathable waders, and I do quite a bit of float tubing. But then, I only get a about two years of use from a pair. I think my hard use trashes them before "butt leaks" ever have a chance to develop.

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When you sit are they tight? You might be putting udo stress on the fabric.. john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been through several pairs of various breathable waders too damn quickly …. they all developed leaks in the rear I’m sure this is because I fish from a kickboat a lot and the kicking while sitting on a fairly hard surface stresses the membrane under my rear and causes it to fail before I rush out to spend the big bucks on Sims …. will they stand up to this use?  I’ve heard enough " the very best" reports about them to believe they are the best and tough in "normal" use … but I’m not sure my lard ass kickin round the pond is normal Anyone used Sim guides for a LONG time with LOTS of kickboat time …. or should I just stick with my old neoprenes for that use? —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Question:

Wow—I’ve been reading some great trip reports here recently.  My contribution isn’t as exotic as some, but our party had a great time anyhow. As this is still my first full season of fly fishing, our annual Sierra trek was to be an opportunity to test all that I’ve learned on some of my favorite waters.  Intimidated by the topo of the Pine Creek trail, our group opted to hire a packer to get us to the pass.  As diehard backpackers, none of us had ridden before, and I have to admit that a couple of us had less-than-favorable attitudes towards pack animals.  Five hours later, though, we were deposited at a spot that would have taken us two days to reach…no more snotty attitudes towards horses! Our base camp was at a bench lake on the south side of French Canyon.  From this temporary home surrounded by 13,000 foot peaks we had access to more than a dozen lakes that hold healthy populations of golden trout.  The days were sunny but verrrry windy, and casting was often a challenge for this FF newbie.  We experimented with a variety of patterns, but the fish seemed most eager for terrestrials, at least during daylight hours.  Hoppers, ants, and attractors like stimulators and royal trudes (12 – 16) were universal hits.  The fish we caught certainly weren’t trophy size, running perhaps 9", but they were very worthy fighters.  Besides, golden trout are so beautiful that we really didn’t mind.  I must have missed three strikes for each one that I connected with, but greater skill will surely come with practice.  On two evenings we were lucky enough to witness what I believe were midge hatches that brought every fish in the lake to the surface.  An honest description of the numbers of leaping fish would never be believed…the water was simply boiling with trout.  Amazing. We hiked out on the fifth day, and I had the chance to give my 4wt a workout in Pine Creek for small rainbows to 8".  I pieced this outfit together based on what several ROFFians have said in their posts, and I absolutely love it for small creeks.  A Redington CT 3/4 (praised by Willi, I believe), on a 7′6" Cabela’s PT rod (I went to the archives for this).  The DT4 line (Mike Conner) is a cheapie Dorber (suggested by many here).  I mention this only to thank everyone for the wealth of good information that finds its way to the group.  It has been an immense help to me.  I’ll try to post a couple of pictures to ABPF when the film gets back.  Thanks for the forum! Cheers, Bill

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Wow—I’ve been reading some great trip reports here recently.  My contribution isn’t as exotic as some, but our party had a great time

anyhow. <snip Great report. Thanks, Bill. — TL, Tim

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Wow—I’ve been reading some great trip reports here recently.  My contribution isn’t as exotic as some, but our party had a great time anyhow. …. Cheers, Bill

Bill Thanks for a great report. Count me among the former purists in the matter of using pack stock. Back Country fly selection is pretty non-critical. My usual answer to what patterns to take is "Yes take flies." However when they start springing for the midges in evening hatch, something in the size 20 range can be helpful, but again just what is not critical. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971

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Question:

Does anybody know of any good fishing books to read. I’m lookin for a book about the pleasures of fishin in a philisophical sense. Not the fly fishing type of book….A book about fishing/guiding/travelling & fishing etc Al Have fishing rod…will travel. Prospective accomplice in fishing

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Know lots of great fishing books but not to many that fill your requirement. Only 2 I can think of were Shaw Grigsby’s book, and Jimmy Huston’s, "Caught me a Big ‘Un". There are a lot more from the fly fishing side of the sport. I am a lot better on the educational stuff. dan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anybody know of any good fishing books to read. I’m lookin for a book about the pleasures of fishin in a philisophical sense. Not the fly fishing type of book….A book about fishing/guiding/travelling & fishing etc Al Have fishing rod…will travel. Prospective accomplice in fishing

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Know lots of great fishing books but not to many that fill your requirement. Only 2 I can think of were Shaw Grigsby’s book, and Jimmy Huston’s, "Caught me a Big ‘Un". There are a lot more from the fly fishing side of the sport. I am a lot better on the educational stuff. dan

Thanks Dan i am aware of those 2 books. I picked up a book today by Richard Louv. He travels through America…meeting other fisherman.I like it because it is a thick book (475 pages) and a cheapo price $5.99. Al Have fishing rod…will travel. Prospective accomplice in fishing

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Darwin’s Bass & Pavlov’s Trout — both by Paul Quinnett. It’s been a while since I read them, but I found them both very enjoyable reads for ‘non-how-to’ type books. RichZ

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a ‘94 short-shart Gamefisher (Force?) that’s been running great since I picked it up at the beginning of tge year. However, the last time I was out,I get a "clack, clack, clack" as I was pulling on the starter rope.  I pushed the trans lever back and forth a couple of times, and it started right up with no"clack" at all. I motored to my fishing spot, cut the motor, making sure I was in neutral, then fished.  When I was ready to pull up, I once again went to start the motor and got the "clack" again.  I was once again able to get rid of the clack by moving the trans lever in and out of gear. Does anyone recognize my problem? Do I have a problem? Will I soon have a problem. Thanks…

There is a safety device system to prevent starting the motor in gear located on the flywheel. As the motor gets older parts get worn and these devices don’t quite work as they use to. The clack clack is a little plastic lever thats connected to the gear shift thats half connecting with the fly wheel. Moving the gear lever as you do helps to put it in the right position. I sugest that you take the cover off the engine and observe how this mechnisium works. Its located on the top of the motor at the back (spark plug end) work the gear lever and you will see the lever and how it works. There is another reason you should know about this is because sometimes the mechinisum jams and you can not pull the cord. If this occurs you take the cover off and manually move the lever out from the flywheel. These safety devices usually fail after a few years (regardless of make). If you are really keen you could set about adjusting it. You will find however that there is a spot on he gear lever where the lever is in the out position. Once you know the spot its just a matter of remembering to put it there before starting the motor. Best of luck Silver fox

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I have a ‘94 short-shart Gamefisher (Force?) that’s been running great since I picked it up at the beginning of tge year. However, the last time I was out,I get a "clack, clack, clack" as I was pulling on the starter rope.  I pushed the trans lever back and forth a couple of times, and it started right up with no"clack" at all. I motored to my fishing spot, cut the motor, making sure I was in neutral, then fished.  When I was ready to pull up, I once again went to start the motor and got the "clack" again.  I was once again able to get rid of the clack by moving the trans lever in and out of gear. Does anyone recognize my problem? Do I have a problem? Will I soon have a problem. Thanks…

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Question:

(words of great insight snipped) A toast to you, Mike, as I enjoy your literary skills over a scotch on a quiet evening in Pennsylvania.  Only on roff. Mark faulkner

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Here, here! Nice work, Mike. Steve Zimmerman Go Cougars!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [excellent prose snipped]

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What urgeth then a man of sense, to seek the soothing solace of a rippling stream, with complex and expensive tools ? ‘Tis surely not the gain involved, for a bag of comely fish may just as well be gleaned with simple gear, likewise by abject fools. Perhaps the contemplation then ? the peace and quiet, and sometimes awesome, even frightening, and  inspiring solitude ? the sight of glorious nature, richly clad in many shades of riotous and verdant colour, may even ban the deepest blackest mood. The stream a

Question:

Planning a trip next Jan/Feb … would be interested in opinions on the top spots on South Island for good flyfishing … plan on doing a little guided and a little on-my-own fishing … love rivers over lakes always … thanks

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Planning a trip next Jan/Feb … would be interested in opinions on the top spots on South Island for good flyfishing … plan on doing a little guided and a little on-my-own fishing … love rivers over lakes always … thanks

John, I’ve been to the South Island twice.  (You can read about it on my web site www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363   with pictures.  The thumbnails will load a larger image if you click on them). There’s a lot to recommend about just about anywhere on the South Island. Most of my experience is in Otago (out of Wanaka) and Southlands (north of Gore). Absolute must stop is the Mataura river.  Can recommend guides to you if you email me. Michael

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I can recommend the Mataura River (the evening rise is spectacular), and also the Hurunui River if it has a good flow…unlikely at that time of year. Most of us Sth Islanders fish the lakes over summer, as the braided rivers are very low.  Try Lakes Hawea and Tekapo in Otago.  The West Coast gets most of the rain, so rivers like the Grey will fish well, but get a guide for these. Tight Lines Greg Christchurch, NZ — FREEDOM is neither a state of mind, nor a state of being. Rather, it is an essential part of every living persons’ existence

  troutnz.vcf

< 1K Download

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Question:

That’s real interesting!

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but don’t come for the atlantic salmon fishing – the spring season as reported in April Trout and Salmon mag. has been generally very poor with few fish caught, and a lot of excuses (none of which conceal the awful truth of a near collapse of Atlantic Salmon stocks.  Read Fly Fisherman current issue…….tight lines elsewhere guys

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Question:

 HI All,         I am looking for links for good fishing sites to add to my links page. If anyone has a good link or web site that isn’t already on the list could you please e-mail the address along with the title of the site and what country it is in. —   Davy Holt Surfing from Clydebank Scotland *  " O Sir, doubht not that angling is                                 *    an art… The question is rather Scottish Angling Homepage       *    whether you are capable of learning   http://www.dholt.demon.co.uk    *    it?"                                                                        Izaak Walton

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Hello, I used a great guide service in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area last year and would recommend it to anyone who was looking. Their webpage is at:  http://members.aol.com/canoetrail/bwcaw.html check it out!

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Fly fishing for Stripers in Cape Elizabeth, Maine Fly fishing for Reds on Cumberland Island, Georgia Reply:  North Atlantic Guides

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WE ARE PLANNING ON GOING TO SANNIBELL (SP?) ISLAND THIS SPRING, ANY TIPS?

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Question:

I plan to spend 7 days in N. Vietnam at the beginning of July.  How easy is it to get to Halong Bay and Hue from Hanoi?  Is it realistic to see these two in 7 days?  

Yes. You can do Halong Bay roundtrip in 2 days from Hanoi. Some travelers’ hangouts offer 2-day tours. Five of us formed our own group and arranged our own trip through a "travel agent", which was more fun (we had more space, had more flexibility, and got to spend the night on the boat) for a little more money ($50 per person instead of $25, all inclusive, in 1994). If you go by mass transit, I think you need 3 days total. Also, what’s the left luggage situation like in Hanoi?

As in most places around the world, your best bet is to stay in a hotel that will hold your luggage before/after your stay. Bruce Burger Seattle, USA

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I plan to spend 7 days in N. Vietnam at the beginning of July.  How easy is it to get to Halong Bay and Hue from Hanoi?  Is it realistic to see these two in 7 days?  Also, what’s the left luggage situation like in Hanoi?

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Yes, you can do both–Halong Bay is an all-day trip and Hue is a short flight on Vietnam Air (but plan on staying at least overnight).   I didn’t do either, but did fly to Danang and stayed in the wonderful old fishing village at Hoi An, 10 miles south of Danang.  It is a real contrast to urban Hanoi.  A nice small hotel in the old quarter of Hanoi is called The Classic.  Posted rates are $50-60, but we bargained don to $25 for two people.

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Question:

The MERCHANT NAVY is the official name for the British merchant fleet in recognition of their losses in the World Wars. In fact there was a badge issued to mercant sailors that consists of the letters MN. — ship safety branch canadian coast guard-west vancouver

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David Jaroslav writes:        David Hogg or Daan Sandee writes:                The UK Merchant Navy flies the Red Ensign,                a.k.a. the Red Duster, a red flag with the                Union Flag in the upper left.        That would be UK Merchant Marine; the only Navy in the UK        is the Royal Navy. To say "civilian Navy" would be an        oxymoron and merchant vessels are civilian ships. Codswallop. Merchant Navy is a legitimate term in common use. Let me quote THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE SEA:        MERCHANT NAVY, a collective name to describe the merchant        ships on the official registers of any one nation. It        embraces  merchant ships of all varieties, from passenger        liners and very large tankers and bulk carriers to small        coasters, but does not normally include vessels used in        fishing. And just to confuse matters for you guys – (and a test of your knowledge) what flag do Royal Fleet Auxilairies fly????? (RFA’s) geoff Cap’n Fido GOBLIN

I’m glad to say that on my recent trip home I bought a larger red ensign. I have always been a bit worried about whether I have the right to fly it on my California registered boat though.  I thought of writing to the Department of Trade and Industry but thought since this thread was running that I’d check out the net wisdom. So; do I, as a British citizen, have the right to fly the red ensign on an American boat?  And if so, could the British government requisition the boat in wartime? Sincerely worried, John.

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I’m glad to say that on my recent trip home I bought a larger red ensign. I have always been a bit worried about whether I have the right to fly it on my California registered boat though.  I thought of writing to the Department of Trade and Industry but thought since this thread was running that I’d check out the net wisdom. So; do I, as a British citizen, have the right to fly the red ensign on an American boat?  And if so, could the British government requisition the boat in wartime?

I’m no sea lawyer, but I believe the only illegality would be to fly the ensign of the wrong country from the customary position (mainsail leech in the case of Dr. Who) in order to falsely claim the protection of that government ("false flagging"). I believe Dr. Who is "numbered", not "registered" ("documented") in California, as I don’t imagine she admeasures the minimum of 5 tons required for documentation.  (Is she in Lloyd’s Register of Yachts?) Furthermore, if she were documented, *you* would not be allowed to own her. If numbered in California, she is a U.S. vessel regardless of her ownership. I believe Miss Manners would require that you fly from the leech only the U.S. ensign (or the U.S. Yacht Ensign).  In addition, you might fly the Red Ensign from the "courtesy ensign" position (usually the starboard spreader.) As to your last question, I think it might depend on whether Britain were at war *with the United States*. Sincerely worried, John.

May you avoid Dinty Moore Beef Stew henceforth,                  Tom Murphy Standard Disclaimer.

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JOHN S DREWERY writes:

        I’m glad to say that on my recent trip home I bought a larger         red ensign.  I have always been a bit worried about whether I         have the right to fly it on my California registered boat though.           I thought of writing to the Department of Trade and Industry but         thought since this thread was running that I’d check out the net         wisdom.         So; do I, as a British citizen, have the right to fly the red         ensign on an American boat?  And if so, could the British         government requisition the boat in wartime? You’re a bit light with caps, aren’t you old son. Try Red Ensign. Right? Might is Right. Fly it with pride. If I had a smaller one I’d fly it from the cross-trees of my GOBLIN as a Jolie Rougier – if you know what I mean.                                         Cap’n Fido, terror of the South Bay                                         GOBLIN

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And just to confuse matters for you guys – (and a test of your knowledge) what flag do Royal Fleet Auxilairies fly????? (RFA’s)

The Royal Fleet Auxilliaries fly the Blue Ensign.                      "In the long run, we’re all dead."                               -John Maynard Keynes

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The Great Aunt Maria, (my wee boat) flies a flag a bit like the Red Ensign, the Marine Flag of New Zealand: Union flag on one quarter, other three red, with 4 white stars on the fly. "Ensign" when used in the specific meaning of "A flag based on the national flag with extra bits" does not apply to the New Zealand flags, which were ensigns of a colony of the British Empire but are now "Flags" in their own right. Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags?

Response:

:   : The Great Aunt Maria, (my wee boat) flies a flag a bit like the Red : Ensign, the Marine Flag of New Zealand: Union flag on one quarter, : other three red, with 4 white stars on the fly. "Ensign" when used in : the specific meaning of "A flag based on the national flag with extra : bits" does not apply to the New Zealand flags, which were ensigns of : a colony of the British Empire but are now "Flags" in their own right. : Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags? The Canadian Navy flies the Canadian flag (Maple leaf w/ red vertical bars on either side) on the stern.  They also fly a Canadian navy flag (ensign?) on the bow when at the dock which is sort of based on the RN white ensign, consisting of a Canadian Flag in the upper left corner and the arms of the Canadian Navy (fouled anchor, crown and maple leaves) centred on a white background. The old canadian flag was based on the red ensign with the union jack in the upper left and the Canadian arms centred on a red background.   A couple of provincial flags (Ontario and Manitoba) are based on this same theme with the respective provincial arms centred. dave — Dept. of Oceanography             QUICS:  dhazen Dalhousie University              Voice: (902) 494-3396 Halifax, NS CANADA B3H 4J1        FAX:  (902) 494-3877              Dal’s Machine – My Opinions

Response:

… the Marine Flag of New Zealand: Union flag on one quarter, other three red, with 4 white stars on the fly. … Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags?

It’s not clear if you mean (currently) non-British or (ever) non-British.  In the former category is Jamaica.  Their martime flag is formed in a manner similar to New Zealand’s with a white cross and three red quarters and the Jamaican green/black civil flag in the top quarter nearest the (?)fly. Randolph Bentson

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Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags?

There has been a long discussiion under the headline ‘UNION JACK’. I do not have documentation available, but I think that the Union Jack is used as a marine flag only by the Queen herself. Most British registered boats use the Red Ensign. I believe that the ensign goes with the boat, because if I as Finnish citisen charter a British boat in say Cowes, I fly the Red Ensign while I use the boat. The British have two more ensigns: Blue Ensign and White Ensign. The White Ensign is quite exclusive, the use is restricted to the members of the royal family, former marine officers (perhaps there is some limit in rank) and the members of the Royal Yacht Squadron. The Blue Ensign is a bit more common, it is used by members of the Royal Cruising Club and a number of other Yacht Clubs (I believe that most of them have the prefix Royal in their name.) The ensigns come in two categories ‘faced’ and ‘defaced’, i.e. there is some symbol on the face of the ensign referring to a certain club. There are several other countries that have special marine flags. I do not have a list of them but at least U.S., Italy, Denmark and Finland have ones. In Finland each yacht club has it’s own symbol at the upper corner at the fly. The ensign is white, like the national flag, but has added to the blue cross another white cross on right onver the blue one. The ’sailor’ flag is actually older than the Finnish national flag, because when the first yacht clubs were born more than 130 years ago, Finland was a part of Russia and the sailors did not want to fly the Russian flag and they got the permission from the czar to fly a ‘club ensign’.  Anyway today this ‘club ensings’ are bona fide national flags, because all of them are approved by the parliament to be so. If I have some British subject on my boat, I can fly the Red Ensign on my port flagline. If I sail to U.K. I fly the same on my starboard flagline. If I charter a boat in some foreign country I fly the flag of the registration countty of the boat in the stern and my Finnish club flag or ensign on my port flagline. This rule should be clear, but I have a problmem: What shall I do, if I have guestos on my boat from several countries. I cannot possibly fly say, a German, Swedish, Danish and French flag of ensign on my port flag rope? – Lauri Tarkkonen

Response:

The Great Aunt Maria, (my wee boat) flies a flag a bit like the Red Ensign, the Marine Flag of New Zealand: Union flag on one quarter, other three red, with 4 white stars on the fly. "Ensign" when used in the specific meaning of "A flag based on the national flag with extra bits" does not apply to the New Zealand flags, which were ensigns of a colony of the British Empire but are now "Flags" in their own right. Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags?

Perhaps ‘not derived from British practice’ would be more accurate (see India, Ireland etc) The only ones which spring to mind are the swallow-tailed ensigns based on the national flag, as used in Scandinavian vessels. Also certain yacht clubs in Belgium and the Netherlands use defaced (technical term meaning ‘bearing a badge or symbol’) national flags as ensigns. At least one Dutch yacht club appears to have a version of the White Ensign. Just to add to the previous discussion, the Red Ensign is the national maritime ensign of the UK which may be flown by a British subject in a vessel which is not otherwise required to fly some other national ensign (ie is on another register). This is exactly the same as the right of US citizens to fly the Stars and Stripes (since there is no US maritime ensign) in a US registered or an unregistered vessel. If the vessel is a registered British ship then the Red Ensign must, by law, be flown under certain circumstances (eg entering and leaving port, when in sight of other vessels). If the vessel is authorised to fly another British ensign (defaced Red, defaced Blue, Blue or White) then that ensign may replace the Red. But it is still *correct* to fly the Red Ensign and I often do so in place of the Blue of the Cruising Association when abroad, since the Red is more readily recognised by lock and bridge keepers, Customs and harbour personnel. For the origin of the Red, White and Blue Ensigns see ‘Squadronal Colours’ in the Oxford Dictionary of Ships and the Sea. More controversially, does anyone share my dislike of the bastard "European" blue ensign which has appeared on a few yachts in recent years? Brian Gay

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :   : The Great Aunt Maria, (my wee boat) flies a flag a bit like the Red : Ensign, the Marine Flag of New Zealand: Union flag on one quarter, : other three red, with 4 white stars on the fly. "Ensign" when used in : the specific meaning of "A flag based on the national flag with extra : bits" does not apply to the New Zealand flags, which were ensigns of : a colony of the British Empire but are now "Flags" in their own right. : Q: Do many other non-British countries have marine flags? The Canadian Navy flies the Canadian flag (Maple leaf w/ red vertical bars on either side) on the stern.  They also fly a Canadian navy flag (ensign?) on the bow when at the dock which is sort of based on the RN white ensign, consisting of a Canadian Flag in the upper left corner and the arms of the Canadian Navy (fouled anchor, crown and maple leaves) centred on a white background. The old canadian flag was based on the red ensign with the union jack in the upper left and the Canadian arms centred on a red background.   A couple of provincial flags (Ontario and Manitoba) are based on this same theme with the respective provincial arms centred. dave

Just a note on ceremonial here – Back when I was doing my officer of the day certification – (eventually I became a CO of a Canadian Warship) I remember studying this whole business about ensigns and such. In Canadian Warships, the national flag has been designated the Ensign. Hence it is flown from the stern. The falg at the bow is called the Jack. Hence the term Jackstaff, which is that stick up at the front. — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dept. of Oceanography             QUICS:  dhazen Dalhousie University              Voice: (902) 494-3396 Halifax, NS CANADA B3H 4J1        FAX:  (902) 494-3877             Dal’s Machine – My Opinions

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[much useful informatio non Ensigns deleted] More controversially, does anyone share my dislike of the bastard "European" blue ensign which has appeared on a few yachts in recent years?

I think the operative word is ‘bastard’.  I agree with you.  The Ensign is to designate the country under whose authority (or protection) the vessel is placed. Give me the Red Duster (or defaced Blue/White/Red) any day! — Regards, Iain  snailmail: MLB G/53a, BT Labs, Martlesham Heath, Ipswich. IP5 7RE

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Just a note on ceremonial here – Back when I was doing my officer of the day certification – (eventually I became a CO of a Canadian Warship) I remember studying this whole business about ensigns and such. In Canadian Warships, the national flag has been designated the Ensign. Hence it is flown from the stern. The falg at the bow is called the Jack. Hence the term Jackstaff, which is that stick up at the front. —

Can you explain the purpose/use of the Jack.  In the US navy it is called the Union Jack and is a square blue flag covered with white stars.  What does it mean and when is it flown?  Do only military vessels fly it? Every time I’ve seen it mentioned in a book it has piqued my interest so I read about it only to find the writer apparently knows no more about it than I do. Greg Cook

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just to add to the previous discussion, the Red Ensign is the national maritime ensign of the UK which may be flown by a British subject in a vessel which is not otherwise required to fly some other national ensign (ie is on another register). This is exactly the same as the right of US citizens to fly the Stars and Stripes (since there is no US maritime ensign) in a US registered or an unregistered vessel. If the vessel is a registered British ship then the Red Ensign must, by law, be flown under certain circumstances (eg entering and leaving port, when in sight of other vessels). If the vessel is authorised to fly another British ensign (defaced Red, defaced Blue, Blue or White) then that ensign may replace the Red. But it is still *correct* to fly the Red Ensign and I often do so in place of the Blue of the Cruising Association when abroad, since the Red is more readily recognised by lock and bridge keepers, Customs and harbour personnel.

This leads me back to the original question, and variations thereon.  If a British citizen residing in the U.S. purchases a boat which was previously a U.S. registered vessel, then that person may not maintain the U.S. registration since they are not a citizen of the U.S.  Under U.S. law, that boat must then be registered ("numbered") with the state authorities.  As a British subject, may that person then fly the Red Ensign from such a vessel?  What is the current U.K. law regarding the registration of vessels, and may that vessel be registered as a British ship?  What constitutes authorisation to fly another British ensign (defaced Red, defaced Blue, Blue or White)? — Steve Robinson in North Andover, Mass.   "Sir, you will either die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That, my lord, depends on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." John Wilkes to the Earl of Sandwich, Parliament, November 1763

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This leads me back to the original question, and variations thereon.  If a British citizen residing in the U.S. purchases a boat which was previously a U.S. registered vessel, then that person may not maintain the U.S. registration since they are not a citizen of the U.S.  Under U.S. law, that boat must then be registered ("numbered") with the state authorities.  As a British subject, may that person then fly the Red Ensign from such a vessel?  

My guess is that being "numbered" on a state register is not *official registration* and therefore the British subject may fly the Red Ensign. What is the current U.K. law regarding the registration of vessels, and may that vessel be registered as a British ship?

There are two registers – the Official Register of British Ships and the Small Ships Register. Getting your ex-US ship onto the former would be difficult and costly but the latter is straightforward – apply to SSR, DVLA, Swansea, Wales.  What constitutes authorisation to fly another British ensign (defaced Red, defaced Blue, Blue or White)?

Permits to fly other British ensigns are issued by the authorised clubs to members owning registered vessels. Brian Gay

Response:

There has been a long discussiion under the headline ‘UNION JACK’. I do not have documentation available, but I think that the Union Jack is used as a marine flag only by the Queen herself.

No. It is flown in the bows (at a jackstaff) on Royal Navy ships at anchor or moorings (when it is properly called the Union Jack). As the Union Flag it is the personal flag of an Admiral of the Fleet. Most British registered boats use the Red Ensign. I believe that the ensign goes with the boat, because if I as Finnish citisen charter a British boat in say Cowes, I fly the Red Ensign while I use the boat.

If the boat is on a British register, this is correct. If not, then whatever ensign is  allowed by the law of the charterer’s country. The British have two more ensigns: Blue Ensign and White Ensign. The White Ensign is quite exclusive, the use is restricted to the members of the royal family, former marine officers (perhaps there is some limit in rank) and the members of the Royal Yacht Squadron.

The White Ensign is reserved to the Royal Navy and the Royal Yacht Squaron. The Blue Ensign is a bit more common, it is used by members of the Royal Cruising Club and a number of other Yacht Clubs (I believe that most of them have the prefix Royal in their name.) The ensigns come in two categories ‘faced’ and ‘defaced’, i.e. there is some symbol on the face of the ensign referring to a certain club.

Yes, a number of clubs have permission to use the plain (undefaced) or defaced (with symbol) Blue Ensign. [Interesting historical stuff deleted] If I have some British subject on my boat, I can fly the Red Ensign on my port flagline.

Nice gesture, but see below If I sail to U.K. I fly the same on my starboard flagline.

A long-time custom of the sea. Some countries require this by law. If I charter a boat in some foreign country I fly the flag of the registration countty of the boat in the stern and my Finnish club flag or ensign on my port flagline.

Yes, if registered (see above) This rule should be clear, but I have a problmem: What shall I do, if I have guestos on my boat from several countries. I cannot possibly fly say, a German, Swedish, Danish and French flag of ensign on my port flag rope?

That’s the problem – to avoid international repercussions, all the national flags would have to be at the same height and of the same size. I hope to be in Finland next year or the year after, Lauri, so you can visit my boat to see that my flag etiquette is all it should be! Brian Gay

Response:

: My guess is that being "numbered" on a state register is not *official : registration*… However, I can cite a case where a boat was purchased in England and registered in Colorado.  It carried the CO number and annual sticker.  The only "paperwork" was the usual (approx) 3" x 3" card with a few (very few) details about the boat and the owner.  That was accepted by the customs of numerous countries around the Mediterranean, and in the Canary Islands, Cape Verde Islands and Martinique.  The only time it was no longer accepted as the *official registration* was when the boat was brought back to the States and permanently berthed in another state (not CO).  When I went to the customs in Martinique, there were several French boats that had all come in at the same time.  I was a bit nervous because they all had official-looking books registering their boats and all I had was this pathetic little bit of a card from Colorado (I wasn’t even named as the owner).  But the customs accepted it without any question.  You can’t get much more *official* than that The owner was American so the boat always flew the S & S.  We did fly the Red Duster as a courtesy flag in England. B.S!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There has been a long discussiion under the headline ‘UNION JACK’. The White Ensign is reserved to the Royal Navy and the Royal Yacht Squaron. The Blue Ensign is a bit more common, it is used by members of the Royal Cruising Club and a number of other Yacht Clubs (I believe that most of them have the prefix Royal in their name.) The ensigns come in two categories ‘faced’ and ‘defaced’, i.e. there is some symbol on the face of the ensign referring to a certain club. Yes, a number of clubs have permission to use the plain (undefaced) or defaced (with symbol) Blue Ensign.

I thought that the only club which could use an undefaced blue ensign was the Royal Southern Yacht Club in Hamble. Are there any others ? regards — Chris Cooper

Response:

Cooper) says: I thought that the only club which could use an undefaced blue ensign was the Royal Southern Yacht Club in Hamble. Are there any others ?

Yep:  the Royal Solent Yacht Club in Yarmouth, IoW, for one. Regards, Alister

Response:

: HMY Britannia has three masts, a jackstaff at her bow and a flagpole : at her stern. When she is under sail with HM the Queen onboard, what : flag goes where? Hm? HMY Britannia trivia: the ship’s name is not marked on any external part of the hull or superstructure. I don’t know if it is marked anywhere inside, not having been there myself. — Terry Steinford

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David Jaroslav writes:    David Hogg or Daan Sandee writes:            The UK Merchant Navy flies the Red Ensign,            a.k.a. the Red Duster, a red flag with the            Union Flag in the upper left.    That would be UK Merchant Marine; the only Navy in the UK    is the Royal Navy. To say "civilian Navy" would be an    oxymoron and merchant vessels are civilian ships. Codswallop. Merchant Navy is a legitimate term in common use. Let me quote THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE SEA:    MERCHANT NAVY, a collective name to describe the merchant    ships on the official registers of any one nation. It    embraces  merchant ships of all varieties, from passenger    liners and very large tankers and bulk carriers to small    coasters, but does not normally include vessels used in    fishing.

And just to confuse matters for you guys – (and a test of your knowledge) what flag do Royal Fleet Auxilairies fly????? (RFA’s) geoff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cap’n Fido GOBLIN

Response:

Here we go again. The Red Ensign is not limited to the Merchant Navy nor to the Merchant Navy + the fisherfolk which seems to define your class "Merchant Marine". All sailing and powered vessels – however small – may fly the Red Ensign (or the Blue if they are members of certain rarefied and Royal Yacht Clubs and Squadrons).

HMY Britannia is run by the Royal Navy and as such flies the White Ensign. I am fairly certain that the Blue Ensign is only flown by civilian vessels carrying ministers of the Crown, but I defer to your more expert knowledge on flag code concerning yachting. I certainly don’t see any particular reason why some clubs might not be granted permission to fly the Blue Ensign; many of their officers are reservists in the Royal Navy and as such would fly it anyway. It is a very common sight to see 16′ sailing craft flying the flag. Not, it seems, in inland waters tho’. However, for these smaller craft it seems a personal choice, a courtesy thing. It is only the Merchant Navy who are obliged to fly the flag. After all, these are documented ships which may be called upon to serve in time of war. Again, fisherfolk are not obliged – and often do not – fly the flag.

My point, at the ultimate beginning of this particular bit of vexillological discourse, was not that British fishing vessels had to fly the Red Ensign, but that they would be in the wrong (and most in violation of the law) to fly the White or Blue Ensign (or the RAF Ensign or the Trinity House Ensign or the Royal Northern Lights Commission Ensign, etc. etc.). They need not fly the flag, but if they do they are only permitted the Red Ensign. Cap’n Fido, who flies the Yacht Ensign of the US from the leech of GOBLIN Port of Redwood City

HMY Britannia has three masts, a jackstaff at her bow and a flagpole at her stern. When she is under sail with HM the Queen onboard, what flag goes where? Hm?                           "In the long run, we’re all dead."                                   -John Maynard Keynes

Response:

David Jaroslav writes:

        Francis Muir says:                 Codswallop. Merchant Navy is a legitimate term in common                 use. Let me quote THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE                 SEA:                         MERCHANT NAVY, a collective name to describe the                         merchant ships on the official registers of any                         one nation. It embraces  merchant ships of all                         varieties, from passenger liners and very large                         tankers and bulk carriers to small coasters, but                         does not normally include vessels used in fishing.         Mmm, mmm, I do love the taste of crow. Okay, I was wrong to         some extent, but I’m pretty that fishing vessels are  supposed         to fly their country’s merchant ensign. They are Merchant Marine,         but by your own definition not Merchant Navy; … Here we go again. The Red Ensign is not limited to the Merchant Navy nor to the Merchant Navy + the fisherfolk which seems to define your class "Merchant Marine". All sailing and powered vessels – however small – may fly the Red Ensign (or the Blue if they are members of certain rarefied and Royal Yacht Clubs and Squadrons). It is a very common sight to see 16′ sailing craft flying the flag. Not, it seems, in inland waters tho’. However, for these smaller craft it seems a personal choice, a courtesy thing. It is only the Merchant Navy who are obliged to fly the flag. After all, these are documented ships which may be called upon to serve in time of war. Again, fisherfolk are not obliged – and often do not – fly the flag. Cap’n Fido, who flies the Yacht Ensign of the US from the leech of GOBLIN Port of Redwood City

Response:

Codswallop. Merchant Navy is a legitimate term in common use. Let me quote THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE SEA:        MERCHANT NAVY, a collective name to describe the merchant        ships on the official registers of any one nation. It        embraces  merchant ships of all varieties, from passenger        liners and very large tankers and bulk carriers to small        coasters, but does not normally include vessels used in        fishing. Cap’n Fido GOBLIN

Mmm, mmm, I do love the taste of crow.     Okay, I was wrong to some extent, but I’m pretty that fishing vessels are  supposed to fly their country’s merchant ensign. They are Merchant Marine, but by your own definition not Merchant Navy; my statement that the UK Merchant Marine fly the Red Ensign is still correct (not just the Merchant Navy as a subset of the Merchant Marine).                       "In the long run, we’re all dead."                                -John Maynard Keynes

Response:

David Jaroslav writes:

        David Hogg or Daan Sandee writes:                 The UK Merchant Navy flies the Red Ensign,                 a.k.a. the Red Duster, a red flag with the                 Union Flag in the upper left.         That would be UK Merchant Marine; the only Navy in the UK         is the Royal Navy. To say "civilian Navy" would be an         oxymoron and merchant vessels are civilian ships. Codswallop. Merchant Navy is a legitimate term in common use. Let me quote THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND THE SEA:         MERCHANT NAVY, a collective name to describe the merchant         ships on the official registers of any one nation. It         embraces  merchant ships of all varieties, from passenger         liners and very large tankers and bulk carriers to small         coasters, but does not normally include vessels used in         fishing. Cap’n Fido GOBLIN

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