Question:

<nice report snipped Here, here. Very glad you established that one could in fact fly fish for SH…I was kinda worried there for a minute or two, not yet having the experience myself my interest is again restored. Thanks for the report and good luck on your next outing. K

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Seriously, congratulations Paul. Now if only certain people will stop trying to make me feel guilty about sightfishing for steelhead in my own backyard, while spinfishing Texans wearing full camo snag their limits up by the hatchery before lunchtime.

ahhh, the texan defense <G chris

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You mean you didn’t like chuck ‘n duck? Don’t understand why not? Nice to catch big fish on traditional flies – probably the most elegant fly that’s ever been used on that river. Next time, I won’t be so quick with the vacation cancellation. Peter Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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The first drift with a Green Highlander hair wing produced a viscous strike and a short battle ending in a lost fly. Tied on another Highlander and two drifts later a 34" steelhead that had to be over 20 lbs took the fly. This one I landed. My first steelie and not a bad fish either.

Way ta go Paul.   Never tried the green highlander, but now I’ll have to tie a few.  :-) Joe F.

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 Have you ever had success in Sandy Creek ?  I’ve  looked at it several times but in each case I ended  up opting for somewhere else.

Kinda curious about that myself.   I’ve been there a couple times, without success; but that could easily be because I only went because the Salmon was too high and conditions are less than optimal at Sandy as well.   I’ve heard "stories" that Sandy was good, but I don’t go often enough to have a fair opinion. Joe F.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  That was a heck of a nice fish !  At 2000 cfs, what color was the water  there ?  Have you ever had success in Sandy Creek ?  I’ve  looked at it several times but in each case I ended  up opting for somewhere else.  - hoping to get there next week. Friday I opted to fish South Sandy Creek since the Salmon was still high and I was told in one of the shops that that was my best shot.

The water was fairly clear. I was able to make out fish about 30′ away in 3′ of turbulent water. I went there on the advice of the Inn keeper and one of the shops as the best chance for getting fish. However, the water temps were 56 and not much visibility. The Salmon was much clearer. South Sandy Creek should be renamed Silty Creek since there was a lot more silt than sand or gravel. I’ll post a picture of the fly that I caught the fish on when I get home tonight. Paul

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So last year was one of those trips that would be funny if it was happening to someone else. We spent two days in the upper fly zone and everyone around me was catching fish. I was standing in the water practicing my casting. Actually I was the only one who was casting. My friend comes over to see what I’m doing wrong and asks to see my setup. I have a 9wt with a sink tip and a flouro leader with 6# tippet. He chuckles and say turn the line around on the reel and fish with the running line. Tie a dropper on your line 4′ behind the fly and put these on it. Then he hands 4 large split shots. There was enough lead here that even Louie would have been disgusted. Then explains that I should flip the line on the ground behind me and then cast the line out into the river using the weight to pull the running line. That’s just about the most unethical thing I’ve ever heard of. After a few different flies I found the right one. The first drift with a Green Highlander hair wing produced a viscous strike and a short battle ending in a lost fly. That viscosity will get you every time. Seriously, congratulations Paul. Now if only certain people will stop trying to make me feel guilty about sightfishing for steelhead in my own backyard, while spinfishing Texans wearing full camo snag their limits up by the hatchery before lunchtime.

I think sight fishing is the only way to fish. It is no different then casting to a rising fish. You have located the fish because it is showing it self. You cast to it because A) you are trying to catch fish B) the rising fish gives away its location and C) it you wanted to pratice casting you could have done that on your front lawn. replace rising fish with large fish that stands out like a sore thumb and you have sight fishing. Paul

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So last year was one of those trips that would be funny if it was happening to someone else. We spent two days in the upper fly zone and everyone around me was catching fish. I was standing in the water practicing my casting. Actually I was the only one who was casting. My friend comes over to see what I’m doing wrong and asks to see my setup. I have a 9wt with a sink tip and a flouro leader with 6# tippet. He chuckles and say turn the line around on the reel and fish with the running line. Tie a dropper on your line 4′ behind the fly and put these on it. Then he hands 4 large split shots. There was enough lead here that even Louie would have been disgusted. Then explains that I should flip the line on the ground behind me and then cast the line out into the river using the weight to pull the running line.

That’s just about the most unethical thing I’ve ever heard of. After a few different flies I found the right one. The first drift with a Green Highlander hair wing produced a viscous strike and a short battle ending in a lost fly.

That viscosity will get you every time. Seriously, congratulations Paul. Now if only certain people will stop trying to make me feel guilty about sightfishing for steelhead in my own backyard, while spinfishing Texans wearing full camo snag their limits up by the hatchery before lunchtime. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Having been skunked on a few steelhead trips to the Salmon River in NY I was looking forward to this one because I was determined to catch one of these beasts. I’ve been up until the wee hours for the past month tying flies for this trip. Some of the patterns were traditional patterns, others more contrmporary and some I was experimenting. I also tied a few of the flies the friends I went with last year caught all their fish on. So last year was one of those trips that would be funny if it was happening to someone else. We spent two days in the upper fly zone and everyone around me was catching fish. I was standing in the water practicing my casting. Actually I was the only one who was casting. My friend comes over to see what I’m doing wrong and asks to see my setup. I have a 9wt with a sink tip and a flouro leader with 6# tippet. He chuckles and say turn the line around on the reel and fish with the running line. Tie a dropper on your line 4′ behind the fly and put these on it. Then he hands 4 large split shots. There was enough lead here that even Louie would have been disgusted. Then explains that I should flip the line on the ground behind me and then cast the line out into the river using the weight to pull the running line. "Silly me, we’re in the fly fishing only section so I thought we were suposed to be flyfishing". To which he replies. I can but I won’t catch anything. He was right. I did turn the line around and went 0 for 1. I had a conflict so I couldn’t make the trip this year with my friends so I was going to fish yesterday and today and Peter was going to meet me. Then they turned up the water. Flows of 750 to 1000CFS are good for wading and the river was running at 6000CFS. I called Peter and we decided that it wasn’t worth the trip. Then they cut the water back to 3500 and I was hoping that they would drop it again for the weekend. I called Peter but he had already cancelled his holiday and booked some appointments. Since fishing credits around here are use them or loose them I decided to go anyways. Friday I opted to fish South Sandy Creek since the Salmon was still high and I was told in one of the shops that that was my best shot. I spent about 10 hours working that river and all I had to show for it was a couple of small mouths and a sunburn. Granted the smallies were about 4lbs each but not exactly what I was looking for. On the way back to the Inn I called the water line for the Salmon River and the flows were being dropped to 2000CFS. I should be able to fish that. Just after sun up this morning  I went to the upper fly zone and had the place to myself.  I started going through my box of flies looking for something to interest the steelies. I was using an 8′ 6/7wt I had built using a Partridge blank with a fast sinking line and 6# flouro tippet (and NO lead). After a few different flies I found the right one. The first drift with a Green Highlander hair wing produced a viscous strike and a short battle ending in a lost fly. Tied on another Highlander and two drifts later a 34" steelhead that had to be over 20 lbs took the fly. This one I landed. My first steelie and not a bad fish either. I had six highlanders in the box and managed to loose 5 of them to fish. But I landed 2 fish the second being a 25" male. I had a couple strikes on a purple thing I tied but with the success that the highlander had. By this time it was noon and a guide and his sport showed up.  Sure enough he seems to be chucking a lot of lead into the river. The interesting thing was that he was standing where I had my first two hook-ups. Not where I was when I had the hookups but where the fly was. The guide must have told the sport that he’ld put him "on the fish" and meant it literally. The deepest I waded was ankle deep. Any deeper and I was would have been stepping on or at least spooking fish. So mission accomplished I headed out. I Spent the next 3 hours checking out the lower part of the river. It was suggested that if I went away fishing for a couple days I might bring some fish home. There were no fish to be seen in the lower streches of the river. I had saved the last Highlander to fish the lower part of the river with but never got the opportunity. I’ll tie a dozen to take with me next year. Paul

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Question:

Peter Charles: (snip) It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies.

More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Dave

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More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived.

Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence either.

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My father brought home a 23 pound Pike from Minnesota years ago that had a huge scar on both sides of it’s body that was the result of a considerably larger Pike getting a death grip on her.  The wound was mostly healed, and the fish put up a great fight, so it clearly wasn’t weakened.   Some have said that the bleeding won’t stop.  That is simply wrong.   Some have said that if the gills are cut, then the bleeding won’t stop.  That may be true in some circumstances, but certainly not in all circumstances. Is it possible that these stories about certain death are created by "bleeding heart" folks who need justification for bringing a fish home to the table? My experience matches Peter’s with juveniles being more delicate, and with larger fish surviving tremendous injuries. Last year at Great Slave Lake my son Andy caught a blind pike.  The fishes eyes were entirely gone, but it managed to find his fly and put up a presentable fight.  It was only 6 or 7 pounds, and uninjured by the fly so we released it.  We couldn’t guess how it lost it’s sight. Frank Ammoto(sp?) wrote an article about steelhead fishing in BC long ago where he caught a steelhead that didn’t put up the usual fight.   When he landed it he discovered that literally half of it’s head had been bitten off by a seal.  This fish was 100 miles upstream from the nearest seal. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence either.

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Is it possible that these stories about certain death are created by "bleeding heart" folks who need justification for bringing a fish home to the table?

I watched a fish bleed to death in Yellowstone this summer.  I was kind of mad that I couldn’t keep it because it was a cutthroat, but wrote it off as bug food and essential nutrients going back into the river.  It did die though.  There was no mistaking it.  No big deal really.  I am sure some other critter was able to enjoy a nice fish. Unlike "some" people, I am not tormented by this. I wonder if water temps, time of year, etc make much of a difference. Perhaps in colder waters, their metabolism is moving slower and the bleeding eventually stops compared to warm water, faster metabolism, etc. I do know that fish don’t have much of an circulatory system compared to other animals and so deep wounds may not even bleed at all.  Think about it.  When you clean a fish, how much blood do you get and where are you getting it?  I don’t draw blood when I lop off the fins of some perch and don’t strike blood until I lop off their heads or when I open them up to gut.  Just a few thoughts and not scientific answers. . . . — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter?

That’s supposed to be a joke?? You remain one sick fuckin’ puppy.

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Along this line, it is now advocated by some that C&R bass fishermen brink along a hypodermic needle to "fizz" the air bladder of bass caught in deeper whater. Bass can not readily adjust their swim bladders so when they are released, they float on top. This has resulted in extreme mortality in some tournaments. There is a very specific location for the placement of the needle through the skin, so you need to familiarize yourself with the anatomy thoroughly before doing it.

Tim, This came up recently either on ROFF or ROFS. If ROFF sorry for the repeat of the site. http://www.leadertec.com/Catch_release.html Kiyu

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Frankly, I don’t know the scientific name for fish slime but I would like to know it.  You don’t suppose there is someone here that can find the term here in ROFF Scott?

Well, as an erstwhile medical practitioner, I usually call it icky goo. When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter?

Has it ever occurred to you to wonder why so many people would rather consort with fish slime than with you? Still not Pete

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Sure, they do die, I’ve seen that often too. I bet the water temperature has a lot to do with it.  Dry Falls Lake is a selective fishery in Eastern Washington that has a nice collection of 14 to 24 inch rainbows and a few nice browns.  One year it was warmer than usual around opening day, and I could see twenty or thirty dead fish on the second day of the season while the morning of the first day there were none.  I was sure these were fish that had been injured when they were hooked and released.  Other years there were no dead fish on the second or third day.  I’m sure it wasn’t any difference in the anglers or the education or the fish.  It had to be environmental. Today I was fishing for Silvers on the Cascade river and snagged a hard fighting 7 pounder.  All the skin and flesh was gone from the top of his head, right down to the bone.  That’s an area of about four square inches.  He put up quite a fight, and I released him unharmed.  The wound was red around the edges, and the rest was clean white bone.  The only likely perpetrator was a seal, and that had to have happened thirty miles down stream at the mouth of the Skagit.   All this is cold clean water, I’m sure that helped. As for that horible feeling that the fish has died, I don’t get that either.  It is wonderful to see all these dead pink salmon providing the nutrients our rivers have been starving for over the last several years. Chas Still thinking about carpooling to the Pike clave… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I watched a fish bleed to death in Yellowstone this summer.  I was kind of mad that I couldn’t keep it because it was a cutthroat, but wrote it off as bug food and essential nutrients going back into the river.  It did die though.   … snip . . — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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I’m not sure I understand humane in this context, so I’ll just leave that part alone.  My understanding is that the fish taste better if you keep them on a stringer for a while so they can work out the built up lactic acid, and then bleed them as completely as possible. Why do I care about the slime on a fish I’m keeping?  (That’s an honest question, not a sarcastic comment)  I’ve noticed that fish I’ve gutted in the field and packed on ice seem to build up a heave slime layer by the time I get them home.  I wonder if the "slime glands" are like our hair folicles and keep functioning after the body has died. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

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I’m not sure I understand humane in this context, so I’ll just leave that part alone.  My understanding is that the fish taste better if you keep them on a stringer for a while so they can work out the built up lactic acid, and then bleed them as completely as possible.

just bleed them… it’s all one needs to do.  and you can thwack them on the head and then bleed them (and they’ll bleed fully dead) chris

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I do know that fish don’t have much of an circulatory system compared to other animals and so deep wounds may not even bleed at all.  Think about it.  When you clean a fish, how much blood do you get and where are you getting it?

Not much.  Maybe that’s the answer.  Fish just don’t have that much blood. Other than a major artery or the gills, they just don’t bleed much.  When you do cut the gills, they can lose such a high percentage of their blood so quickly (relatively speaking) that it’s sometimes fatal.  Maybe it’s not a blood clot issue at all.

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More anecdotal stuff: Some people survive shotgun blasts, and others are killed instantly by mishandled .22s loaded with .22 shorts. Sometimes game animals are killed with one (particular) shot, other times, they aren’t.  Of course some fish survive mauling, etc., while others die from seemingly minor wounds.  Why is anyone surprised, or doubt it happens?

Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period.

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Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period.

Water, itself makes clotting difficult due to dilution.  The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t necessary, don’t you see? George Gehrke

  george.vcf

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The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t

necessary, don’t you see? I see the beauty of releasing bleeders in to an 11 inch cold handle cauterizer… — TBone

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Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period. Water, itself makes clotting difficult due to dilution.  The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t necessary, don’t you

see? Catercizes.  Yes, I think I see now.

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I suspect you’re right.  I think the main reason I keep them on a stringer is that I like to get them on ice as soon after they die as possible.  If I’m going to keep fishing, I’d rather keep the fish fresh by keeping it alive.  I know that’s not what I said before, but in that context I thought the delay might have some value. Thanks Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just bleed them… it’s all one needs to do.  and you can thwack them on the head and then bleed them (and they’ll bleed fully dead) chris

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The best way to preserve ‘the slime layer’ is to never touch a fish with dry hands nor do you let it flop on dry ground. Frankly, I don’t know the scientific name for fish slime but I would like to know it.  You don’t suppose there is someone here that can find the term here in ROFF Scott? When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

  george.vcf

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In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health.

Along this line, it is now advocated by some that C&R bass fishermen brink along a hypodermic needle to "fizz" the air bladder of bass caught in deeper whater. Bass can not readily adjust their swim bladders so when they are released, they float on top. This has resulted in extreme mortality in some tournaments. There is a very specific location for the placement of the needle through the skin, so you need to familiarize yourself with the anatomy thoroughly before doing it. — TBone

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Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence eithe

I’ve seen many trout that have had huge scars and chunks of flesh missing that have survived quite well, but *every* trout or salmon that I’ve seen bleeding from the gills has died within minutes, often within seconds. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding.

IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

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Peter Charles: (snip) It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies. More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Dave

More anecdotal stuff: Some people survive shotgun blasts, and others are killed instantly by mishandled .22s loaded with .22 shorts. Sometimes game animals are killed with one (particular) shot, other times, they aren’t.  Of course some fish survive mauling, etc., while others die from seemingly minor wounds.  Why is anyone surprised, or doubt it happens? TC, R

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In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but practice makes perfect This IS a choice which is better then nothing at all. George Gehrke

  george.vcf

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I’m trying to imagine handling the fish’s gills carefully enough to find the wound, then striking the match, blowing it out, and getting it inside the fish to cauterize the wound.  All this needs to be within 30 seconds so the air on the gills doesn’t do the dastardly deed. Interesting idea, but a bit far-fetched. I don’t have any proof in the case of trout, but I’ve seen that bleeding pills in Pike aren’t always lethal.  On a couple 30 fish days up at Great Slave Lake, we had 3 or 4 fish that we released despite the bleeding.   The bay we were fishing had a bare mud bottom only about 3 feet deep, so we could see the fish on the bottom.  They developed a red spot on the bottom from the bleeding.  As we came over those areas later, we noticed the spots, but the fish were gone. I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. I’m sure these cuts aren’t good, but I think at least some fish survive them. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a multi-part message in MIME format. In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but practice makes perfect This IS a choice which is better then nothing at all. George Gehrke [ george.vcf ] (Attachment)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m trying to imagine handling the fish’s gills carefully enough to find the wound, then striking the match, blowing it out, and getting it inside the fish to cauterize the wound.  All this needs to be within 30 seconds so the air on the gills doesn’t do the dastardly deed. Interesting idea, but a bit far-fetched. I don’t have any proof in the case of trout, but I’ve seen that bleeding pills in Pike aren’t always lethal.  On a couple 30 fish days up at Great Slave Lake, we had 3 or 4 fish that we released despite the bleeding.   The bay we were fishing had a bare mud bottom only about 3 feet deep, so we could see the fish on the bottom.  They developed a red spot on the bottom from the bleeding.  As we came over those areas later, we noticed the spots, but the fish were gone. I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. I’m sure these cuts aren’t good, but I think at least some fish survive them. Chas

Chas, I don’t have the range of encounters that you have mentioned but I can talk about a few instances.  We are taught that fish have no platelets and all bleeding inevitably leads to death.  I have hooked deeply small trout on C&R or slot limit streams that I was required by law to release and I have watched these bleeding fish die.  Yet I have also hooked a landlock salmon under the jaw, caused a very nasty, distinctive wound, had it bleed, released it (as required by law) and caught it the very next day on the same fly.   I have also caught smallmouth with fresh, bleeding mouth wounds opposite to the site of the hook puncture, that I had obviously caused having hooked and lost the same fish some time earlier (I was the only fisherman there.) These experiences have suggested to me that fish with major bleeding will die but a minor bleed is not necessarily fatal.  I also agree that pike with minor bleeding wounds will usually survive.  In my experience, most pike that are brought into a boat are returned to the water with at least some bleeding.  They thrash so much that even with experienced handling, it’s hard to keep them from banging into something that will cut them.  If mortality from these casual bleeds was 100%, C&R mortality for pike would be probably in excess of 50%. Nobody talks about pike as being endangered. So obviously, C&R mortality has to be running a lot lower (as suggested by virtually all studies – however flawed.)   Therefore, bleeding is not necessarily fatal – hardly scientific but definitely within the experience of this fisherman.  I have also caught steelhead with a fungus growth covering wounds inflicted during the migration, from nest building, and from fighting.  If steelhead died from the first bleeding wound, there wouldn’t be very many steelhead around. It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

Been doing some smallmouth fishing myself.  Its not well known out here; I had a number of trout fisherman try my drift without catching any trout at all.  Imagine that!   They gave up and left and I continued to catch an occasional 2lb smallie.  I have only recently discovered this fishery myself and it makes for  a really nice change of pace.  In fact I am going to leave the stone fly hatch on the South Fork to the YUFFIES and go looking for more smallie water.  I really like those fish… John.

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 The little 10 inch smallie inhaled Dale’s bug but Dianna was able to release with a twist of the wrist without lifting the fish from the water.  It was interesting to note that this section of river has excellent big Bluegill but all the strikes she had came from smallmouth!

I am sorry that the bluegill did not cooperate. I have a hard time testing the flies on smallmouth because there are so few around here. I am sure she had a smile on her face. Thanks for the trip report…I felt like I was there. Big Dale

Response:

 At last, this past weekend saw the Rappahannock water levels fall enough to allow for safer wading.  My wife and I set out early (5:15 am) Sunday morning to be on the river before 6.  I had to make BIG promises about the rest of the day to get her up that time of the morning (4:30).  She actually beat me out the door and we arrived at the river as the sun was coming up over the river.  A long legged wading bird stood sentry on the water, his reflection mirrored in a quiet pool.  Two pair of Mallards moved noisily away from the bank as we walked down the trail.  Dianna carried the Connor rod to gain the advantage of the extra 2 ft. of rod length on this river and the extra weight of the line for larger smallmouth bugs.  I started with a Murray’s Leadeyed Hellgrammite behind an AirFlo super-fast sinking leader and 3 ft. of 1X tippet.  Dianna rigged the Connor up with a floating leader and a BIG DALE FOAM SPIDER.  Being nearly a foot shorter, Dianna fished closer to the bank and I took the middle of the river.  We worked downstream together.  She had the first three strikes and first fish.  Smallmouth bass were eager that morning.  The little 10 inch smallie inhaled Dale’s bug but Dianna was able to release with a twist of the wrist without lifting the fish from the water.  It was interesting to note that this section of river has excellent big Bluegill but all the strikes she had came from smallmouth!  In the meantime, I worked the deeper sloughs fishing the Hellgrammite across and down stripping back in slow twitches.  WHAM!!  A 14" fish!  WHAM!! his grandfather!   WHAM!! the fist fish’s sister/girlfriend (West Virginia?).  The morning was going beautifully.  Dianna paused after a few fish to sit on a large rock and just watch the river.  She spotted a muskrat swimming across and soon a Bald Eagle made his appearance. All fishing action stopped to watch that bird wing gracefully upriver. We fished a while longer then headed out to IHOP for a big breakfast of eggs and Harvest Grain and Nut pancakes.  The hubbub of civilization was just 5 minutes away from our wilderness jaunt on the river. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

At last, this past weekend saw the Rappahannock water levels fall enough to allow for safer wading.

        (neat report snipped) thanks for reviving some great memories of that gorgeous river! wayno

Response:

thanks for reviving some great memories of that gorgeous river! wayno

We were fishing just about 200 yards downstream of where we were wading when Anthony caught his first smallie.  Warmer weather but that pink glow in the sky from sunrise and water temperature about 75.  Nice caddis hatch coming off. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

Why thank you kindly gents.

(another sonnet snipped) Mike:  you’re most welcome. Your literary skills are most welcome here, and always appreciated.   Mark Faulkner

Response:

A talent like Mike’s should not go unpunished, I suggest we all raise our glasses of Old Grouse in a toast to him. — Ernie Harrison

Response:

A talent like Mike’s should not go unpunished, I suggest we all raise our glasses of Old Grouse in a toast to him. — Ernie Harrison

my apologies but I drink Grant’s. I’ll hoist one for Mike tonight. Not hard to persuade me eh? Ralph H "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Response:

A talent like Mike’s should not go unpunished, I suggest we all raise our glasses of Old Grouse in a toast to him.

He is so good in fact that I was thinking that he’s like an ‘online poetry synthesis machine’. ….I was wondering if he could not charge people to make poetry out of whatever they like. …he could have an interactive web site. "RhymeTime" …and since people could log in and get instant prose it could be. "Real-Time RhymeTime" You go Mike. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A talent like Mike’s should not go unpunished, I suggest we all raise our glasses of Old Grouse in a toast to him. He is so good in fact that I was thinking that he’s like an ‘online poetry synthesis machine’. ….I was wondering if he could not charge people to make poetry out of whatever they like. …he could have an interactive web site. "RhymeTime" …and since people could log in and get instant prose it could be. "Real-Time RhymeTime" You go Mike. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

I agree Timbo…..in fact, as I offer my salud later today, I’ll know that we are very lucky to have Mike here at ROFF and be blessed with his style and wit. –Wataugan "is it 4pm yet?" Walt

Response:

Why thank you kindly gents. Glad you find the rhymes pleasing, or even perhaps a bit teasing, I hope they amuse, and are not too abstruse, and keep you constantly wheezing ! I raise my glass here too, it couldnt be done without you, for a rhyme or two, you give me the cue, and sometimes even a few ! So here is my return toast, to the stalwart ROFFIAN host, cheers ! Good health, long life and wealth, to you all,  but the drinkers the most ! Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

(timbo’s post snipped) I agree Timbo…..in fact, as I offer my salud later today, I’ll know that we are very lucky to have Mike here at ROFF and be blessed with his style and wit. –Wataugan "is it 4pm yet?" Walt

        as a matter of fact, i think he’s so *damn* good that i intend to toast him at least five or six times before 10 pm.  by 8:15 he will be runnin line for line with robert frost.  and saturday night, he’ll be neck and neck with w. shakespeare hissownself! wayno, always willing to recognize talent – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I agree Timbo…..in fact, as I offer my salud later today, I’ll know that we are very lucky to have Mike here at ROFF and be blessed with his style and wit.

(ahem) 5pm! It’s time to reboot, Scrolling away, ROFF’s always a hoot! Tho’ when I click onto Connor, It’s always an honor, That everything else said is moot. Tony Ritter www.gonefishing-gs.com

Response:

A couple of generations advance over the old ‘bot eh? Ralph H

Very good Ralph. –Wataugan "love a good touche" Walt

Response:

A talent like Mike’s should not go unpunished, I suggest we all raise our glasses of Old Grouse in a toast to him. He is so good in fact that I was thinking that he’s like an ‘online poetry synthesis machine’.

 A couple of generations advance over the old ‘bot eh? Ralph H "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Response:

_______ Can’t begin to tell you how much more I like that fly fishing handle of "T-Bone" much better?! There is no other name that explains you better.  Salt of the earth.  Western Bone Bred, and bad ass on the stream.

Question:

Thanks Jim! I think(?) — Tight lines and sharp hooks, Capt. Mark Poirier

Response:

Why are some people compelled to demonstrate their ignorance when they flame others? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the first schoolies have been boiling off the beaches of the south Cape, Martha’s Vineyard and Nantucket. White clousers, deceivers — small sizes — are catching fish, some up to 28" from the Elizabeth Islands to Harwich, where a few 28" keepers have been landed already.   I don’t give a fat shit what the "law" is, but a 28" striper s NOT a keeper. Get with the program fool!!! — Tight lines and sharp hooks, Capt. Mark Poirier

Response:

28 inches is the new keeper size for recreational fishermen. The Division of Marine Fisheries ruling has been filed with the Secretary of State which puts it into effect immediately. The commercial quotas are still an issue, with a review of the bag limit due to be reheard next month.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The third season of fish reports from Reel-Time: The Internet Journal of Saltwater Fly Fishing kicks off with a new editor, David Peros, who reports the first schoolies have been boiling off the beaches of the south Cape, Martha’s Vineyard and Nantucket. White clousers, deceivers — small sizes — are catching fish, some up to 28" from the Elizabeth Islands to Harwich, where a few 28" keepers have been landed already. Get the full report at: http://www.reel-time.com/fishwire/update-fw.html   I don’t give a fat shit what the "law" is, but a 28" striper s NOT a keeper. Get with the program fool!!! — Tight lines and sharp hooks, Capt. Mark Poirier

Captain Poirier, shy man that he is, confided to me in private correspondence, that what he meant to say was that he disagreed with the taking of 28 inch stripers, as they are pre-spawn fish.  He enncourages everyone to return these fish to the water. If he is correct in calling them pre-spawn fish, I agree with  him.  We have the same situation in California with several game species.  Most responsible anglers add a few inches to the 12 inch calico bass limit, the 22 inch barracuda and halibut  limit, and the 28 inch white seabass limit.  We also return the larger fish so we don’t end up with a gene pool biased to the smaller fish. He is probably going to flame me (in e-mail) again for stepping on his toes.  The last time this gentleman (?) e-mailed me, he called me a "…sprout-eating fool…" from the left coast, and we’d never even corresponded before.  If he has a heart, it could be in the right place. Jim Kozakowski Support the United Anglers of California <http://www.webworldinc.com/unitedanglers-sc/

Response:

The third season of fish reports from Reel-Time: The Internet Journal of Saltwater Fly Fishing kicks off with a new editor, David Peros, who reports the first schoolies have been boiling off the beaches of the south Cape, Martha’s Vineyard and Nantucket. White clousers, deceivers — small sizes — are catching fish, some up to 28" from the Elizabeth Islands to Harwich, where a few 28" keepers have been landed already. Get the full report at: http://www.reel-time.com/fishwire/update-fw.html

  I don’t give a fat shit what the "law" is, but a 28" striper s NOT a keeper. Get with the program fool!!! — Tight lines and sharp hooks, Capt. Mark Poirier

Response:

The third season of fish reports from Reel-Time: The Internet Journal of Saltwater Fly Fishing kicks off with a new editor, David Peros, who reports the first schoolies have been boiling off the beaches of the south Cape, Martha’s Vineyard and Nantucket. White clousers, deceivers — small sizes — are catching fish, some up to 28" from the Elizabeth Islands to Harwich, where a few 28" keepers have been landed already. Get the full report at: http://www.reel-time.com/fishwire/update-fw.html

Response:

Question:

If your going to fish Crowley in a tube, it would be criminal not to fish the Green Banks area.  Although at times it seems that you could walk bank to bank on the ‘tubers without getting you feet wet, this is a hot area of the lake.  Since the access roads are all unmaked dirt roads, you need to get directions from one of the local sproting goods stores.  I can get there but I can’t tell you how to get there. I have fished this area effectively using a sink tip line with an olive damsel fly nymph and olive woolybuggers in late June and July.  A word of warning, when the wind kicks up get off the lake.  It can be brutal. Good Luck, Dctr Trout

Response:

Where is Crowley Lake?

Response:

Where is Crowley Lake?

Crowley Lake is in Mono County, California. It is about a ten minute drive from the Mammoth Lakes Resort area. If you find Reno, Nevada on the map, follow Hwy 395 South-East approximately 180 miles.

Response:

Have you tried Tim Alper’s lunker pond yet?  His designer Rainbow’s are big.

Response:

I am looking for some advice on fishing Crowley Lake from a float tube.   I have fished the surrounding area (Hot Creek, Mammoth Lakes, Rush Creek, etc.), but I have always hesitated to fish Crowley because I hear you need a float tube to fish it right.  Well, now I have the tube and would love to get some tips on catching the Browns and Rainbows that everyone rants and raves about. I am planning trips in the Spring, Summer, and Fall.  I know the Olive Matuka is a famous Crowley fly, but maybe there are others???  Also, I will be looking the ‘tote the tube’ to any promising lakes within a day hike. Thanks in advance for any help, Matt Riley

Response:

I am looking for some advice on fishing Crowley Lake from a float tube…

I have tried tubing Crowley near the marina and also off of Benton Crossing Road.  Haven’t hooked any of the big trout but was pretty amazed at the thick soup of hatching bugs – no wonder the trout grow. One trip we hit into a school of Sacramento Perch.  Locals said they were the best eating fish of all; we were camping so we kept quite a few (no limit) and filleted them and fried them up in a beer/bisquick batter and I wholeheartedly agree. Delicious! Before we cooked them a trout purist friend of a friend was pouting because we hadn’t caught trout, said he didn’t want any, then later, OK well lemme try a little bit, then another and he ended up eating about ten of them himself. There are lots of other lakes worth tubing, up any of the roads that go west from 395 in the Bishop area.  Last year a writer to this list caught 6 and 10 lb. brown trout on dry flies at North lake. I think especially with all the water, this year should be good for the east side sierra lakes. I like this area as much for the scenery, and when the mountains still have snow on the it is best. mark Vinsel Visit my gallery: http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.HTML

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Question:

 What if you have a jig of some sort on your line with a slip bobber rig….. Do you think it will

work? Has anyone…..tried it? Down here in TExas what you are describing is called a "Mansfield Mauler": Foam float with about a ten-inch stiff steel wire thru a slip-hole down the bobber. Wire held from leaving the hole by sliding plastic beads top and bottom (belayed by crimped ferrules) that "click" when the mauler is twitched. Bottom end has a few feet of leader and a snap:the  jig (or a treble hook with live bait like a shrimp) goes there… You "pop" the rod and as you do the wire comes up thru the float, thereby tilting the float to its side. THe sudden tilt causes the bait to be jerked up and a bit laterally towards the fisherman. THe wire also propels the beads against the bobber causing a nice loud click. As you relax the line the wire descend again thru the hole partway, allowing the bait to settle. Another click occurs when the top bead hits the top of the bobber. They are painted an iridescent red/dayglow orange color. Very effective over eelgrass down here for redfish and specks… Don’t know if they are avail from catalogs but I bet they are. email me for address of supplier here if you cant find em thru bass pro shops or equiv. places… good luck. bill II*

Response:

 What if you have a jig of some sort on your line with a slip bobber rig….. Do you think it will work? Has anyone…..tried it?

In Iowa, during crappie spawning season, we used jigs with marabou feather tails under bobbers to catch them.  Set the jig 18-24 inches below the bobber, depending on the depth of the bottom.  Cast, slowly retrieve.  Set the hook at the slightest strange action by the bobber. Once, I was wading and casting this set-up.  I got careless, and let the jig hit the water behind me.  I threw a crappie 30 feet forward, after it grabbed that jig!  This should work almost anywhere if the water is clear enough to see 3-5 feet, during the spring spawn. Larry L. Neely

Response:

I haven’t tried it yet, but I had a thought. What if you have a jig of some sort on your line with a slip bobber rig. Suppose the bobber has a long stem or tube (or whatever you call that piece the line passes through). Cast it out, and the jig sinks to the set depth and the weight of the jig keeps the slip bobber upright. Now, since the line passes all the way through the bobber from bottom to top, if you twitch or jerk your line in small increments will the slip bobber act as a fulcrum and cause enough up and down and sideways action on the jig to attract a strike? Eventually, you would twitch the lure back to you and have to cast again. But in clear water where fish spook at the sight of a boat, this might be a useful technique if you could find a school holding at a certain depth. Do you think it will work? Has anyone tried it?

Response:

: I haven’t tried it yet, but I had a thought. What if you have a jig of : some sort on your line with a slip bobber rig. Suppose the bobber has a : long stem or tube (or whatever you call that piece the line passes : through). Cast it out, and the jig sinks to the set depth and the weight : of the jig keeps the slip bobber upright. : Now, since the line passes all the way through the bobber from bottom to : top, if you twitch or jerk your line in small increments will the slip : bobber act as a fulcrum and cause enough up and down and sideways action : on the jig to attract a strike? Eventually, you would twitch the lure back : to you and have to cast again. But in clear water where fish spook at the : sight of a boat, this might be a useful technique if you could find a : school holding at a certain depth. Do you think it will work? Has anyone : tried it? You have just described one of the most effective ways of fishing for crappie.  This technique is also good for trout and bluegill.  You can attach a sinking fly instead of a jig, twitch it now and then, you can catch bluegill, crappie or trout.  Sometimes a curious bass will bite but not too often.  Place a shiner and you will get big bass.  Of course, depends where you fish, depth setting, time of the year, species found in the lake, etc…

Response:

I believe In-Fisherman or Bassmaster magazine had an article on just this type of fishing. I’am not sure which month it was in, but i’am pretty sure it was in last years run.

Response:

: You have just described one of the most effective ways of fishing for : crappie.  This technique is also good for trout and bluegill.  You can : attach a sinking fly instead of a jig, twitch it now and then, you can catch : bluegill, crappie or trout.  Sometimes a curious bass will bite but not : too often.  Place a shiner and you will get big bass.  Of course, depends : where you fish, depth setting, time of the year, species found in the lake, : etc… You may also try using cast-a-bubble, or very tiny Thill floats if the fish are very spooky, instead of the ordinary bobbers.

Response:

I haven’t tried it yet, but I had a thought. What if you have a jig of some sort on your line with a slip bobber rig. Suppose the bobber has a long stem or tube (or whatever you call that piece the line passes through). Cast it out, and the jig sinks to the set depth and the weight of the jig keeps the slip bobber upright.

I used to do a lot of heavy spinning from rocky coastlines when I lived in Samoa, fishing for bluefin trevelly and ulua. The surface poppers are fun, but no good when the fish were down. However, casting a diving lure was hopeless,… always snagging on the coral and losing precious lures. I thought about it a while, and came up with the same idea you hit on, only adapted to bigger fish. I was using 25 lb on a Penn 850, passing the line through a 2" bubble (the kind you partially fill with water for weight). On the terminal end, a barrel swivel was joined to a 4′ leader and large diving lure. Big Rapalas or salmon plugs were good. I would then cast out and let the lure sink down while counting off the seconds. If it hit bottom, a quick retrieve kept it off, then I would always start the retrieve a few seconds sooner on later casts (Rapala Countdown method). This would give a long, slanting retrieve to the surface, then a free fall to the bottom, another slanting retrieve, etc. till the lure was in. My best catch was a 38 lb white ulua on a 8" Rapala Sliver. However, I still lost plent of lures, but it was another option. — David G. Itano

Response:

I haven’t tried it yet, but I had a thought. What if you have a jig of some sort on your line with a slip bobber rig. Suppose the bobber has a long stem or tube (or whatever you call that piece the line passes through). Cast it out, and the jig sinks to the set depth and the weight of the jig keeps the slip bobber upright. Now, since the line passes all the way through the bobber from bottom to top, if you twitch or jerk your line in small increments will the slip bobber act as a fulcrum and cause enough up and down and sideways action on the jig to attract a strike? Eventually, you would twitch the lure back to you and have to cast again. But in clear water where fish spook at the sight of a boat, this might be a useful technique if you could find a school holding at a certain depth. Do you think it will work? Has anyone tried it?

Great technique for Walleyes.   Knocks ‘em dead. Burt Benson, New York Mills, MN

Response:

Question:

Several of us are trying to get a Chat Room set up on Prodigy and a conference room on AOL so that we can talk with each other, tell or stories about the one that gotr away or what ever. To do this we need to show interest. If your into this and subscribe to Prodigy or AOL let me know and I’ll pass the info on Thanks Fishing the Green in Utah

Response:

Several of us are trying to get a Chat Room set up on Prodigy and a conference room on AOL so that we can talk with each other, tell or stories about the one that gotr away or what ever. To do this we need to show interest. If your into this and subscribe to Prodigy or AOL let me know and I’ll pass the info on.

You might consider getting in contact with Alan Dechovitz on AOL, his handle is Caribe Duo. He already runs two nets a month. Currently they are held on the first tuesday and third sunday on each month. He is expanding the net to include guest speakers for Febuary and March. See ya, Bob

Response:

INTERESTED

Response:

I am on AOL. My screen name is Fishingfly. From S.E. Idaho. I am very interested in a chat. Also holding Eastern Idaho fly tying expo in Pocatello on April 8 at the Quality Inn. 70 top tyers from the west  

Response:

interested in this

Response:

I am AOL my screen name is Fishingfly. My name is Chuck Collins. I am from Pocatello, Idaho. Would be interested in Chat.

Response:

Hi E.- I’m currently on Compuserve and AOL in a comparison mode.  My current thinking is AOl between the two but I am seriously condidering Internet instead of either of them.  Cheaper for me thru the U of Minn connection. However, I am always interested in talking flyfishing and I may stay with AOL.  CIS is just too damned expensive  -  almost twice the hourly cost for chat lines or BBS’s. I’ll be watching to see if you get something going. John Bjostad in Mpls

Response:

Prefer CompuServe.

Response:

Im interested my screen name is VinceT1027 contact me on AOL!!!

Response:

sounds like a good idea let me know if it gets going

Response:

im interested. im a ff. i sub to aol.

Response:

i work for mk.  i am in seattle. im a ff. i would very much like a chat line in aol.  i am learning ff.

Response:

An AOL chat line sounds good to me. You can get a rise out of me at tight lines! the bobinator   The Bobinator

Response:

Yes This would be great so that we could pass informatiom around on where it is hot and where it is not.

Response:

I’m interested, MG caddis

Response:

I’m definitely interested. On AOL.  From MA.  Both fresh and salywater flyfishing.  Let me Know how it works out.                                                              Feltsole

Response:

Ready any evening.

Response:

Several of us are trying to get a Chat Room set up on Prodigy and a conference room on AOL so that we can talk with each other, tell or stories about the one that gotr away or what ever. To do this we need to show interest. If your into this and subscribe to Prodigy or AOL let me know and I’ll pass the info on.

As a subscriber of prodigy, please enter my interest in a bb or chat – great idea!

Response:

I would really enjoy a conference room on AOL. Contact me when something develops. Thanks, PresG

Response:

My screen name is DON1RENO I am interested in a room and maybe holding some seminars or workshops online for those hideous nights after work

Response:

For all who wanted a Chat Room. AOL Keyword GS OTHER, Enter "Other Sports", highlight Chat Rooms, Choose Sports Rooms and then enter "Sideline" I’m not real sure what goes on in sidelines, but lets meet there Sat. evening at around 9:00PM EST. If need be, maybe we’ll just have to take it over for awhile. I want to thank all of you for your help and support in this, I’ve had about 40 replys. Thjanks

Response:

Tight Lines and Screaming Reels Southern Style! Let me know Phil B.

Response:

MartinR100 at AOL, would be interested.

Response:

Response:

you got a rise out of me. i would like to be able to have real-time conversations on aol with persons who are hooked on flyfishing like me. stan in ca stan in ca

Response:

Question:

: I was browsing around a couple weeks ago at the local Wal-mart and : came across "Spider Wire" – a braided Spectra fishing line. I’ve also : come across some in a Netcraft catalog – where its significantly : cheaper ($11-16 for 150 yards). [...] : I wonder if the .013" stuff would be OK for moderately large models. : No, I don’t plan to try this stuff in Combat – it’d be interesting to : use it as a streamer leader though – cut off the other guy’s wing [...] I have had much success on model rockets to use the pre-assembled fishing leaders that you find at Walmart, Kmart, etc.  Usually has 12" small diameter wire, with connector on one end, and snap swivel on the other.  Either mount them under a centering ring if length permits, or epoxy them to the airframe wall.  I suggest making the swivel about even with top of airframe to minimize zippering the body tube, but I’ve had good luck with letting them hang out.  Attach shock cord to swivel end of the leader. —          /       Lee Reep                    voice: 303/229-2010     /  /~~  /   Fort Collins, Colorado                TRA 2007

Response:

Anyhow.. Here is number you call to get a Netcraft catalog.         1-800-638-2723 The address is:         Netcraft         2800 Tremainsville Road,         Toledo, OH 43613 Incidentally, besides the Spectra, they have a huge variety of other stuff that we’d all be interested in: snaps and swivels, steel leader wire, crimping sleeves, tools, carbon fiber fishing rod blanks, (small) Cyalume sticks (work great for low altitude rockets at night, but I’d use the larger 4 inchers for anything that goes above 200 feet), threads and line of all descriptions, storage boxes, etc. etc. Incidentally.. last night I was at the Wal Mart again and found another brand of Spectra line. The brand was "Lynch line". It came in test weights to 80 pounds and as little as 35 pounds. The 35# stuff, though, was the same diameter as the Spider Wire 50# test – .014". It was quite a bit cheaper than the Spider Wire. — Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala

Response:

: Yesterday I was at the first (for me) contest of the season. I got a : kill off someone by snagging his streamer with my inboard leading : edge. Problem was the string the management supplies was a little too : think – it broke both spars and tore off half the inboard wing!  ^^^^^ Alright.  Make up your mind.  Thin or Thick.  (It could go either way.)

It was rope jr. ^_^;; Looks like I’m going to have to learn to splice wings.. my planes usually get thrown away (actually I have 15-20 moldering away in a closet ^_^;;) after getting damaged (usually because I come up with new hotter designs) but this one was the second newest one in my fleet! — Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala

Response:

: Yesterday I was at the first (for me) contest of the season. I got a : kill off someone by snagging his streamer with my inboard leading : edge. Problem was the string the management supplies was a little too : think – it broke both spars and tore off half the inboard wing!   ^^^^^ Alright.  Make up your mind.  Thin or Thick.  (It could go either way.) —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What exactly is "parachute cord"? You don’t mean the stuff for full-size parachutes, do you? Incidentally, I hear that Kevlar lines need sleeving, too. I guess I’m showing my age by calling it that.  The stuff was developed for that use.  It comes in several diameters and you want the stuff that IS, indeed, useed in small parachutes (drag chutes).    People also use parachute cord to make "slinkies".  "Slinkies" are short  lengths of parachute cord stuffed with lead (preferably steel…) shot,  used as substitutes for sinkers/split shot in drift-fishing rivers/streams  with snaggy bottoms.  Slinkies are less prone to snagging.

So is Parachute Cord hollow, or do you have to pull the inner filler out? All the braided line I’ve seen has an inner core. What diameter are we talking about for sleeving? I imagine the stuff used for "slinkies" is of a larger diameter. — Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala

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The motor like sound comes from the vibrating trailing edge of the sail (fabric). Control lines can produce whistle like sound. Gee Simo…did you really think I didn’t know that?  I was joking about the motor.

Now you can be stronger in your faith… Simo —

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<questions about Spectra) : I wonder if the .013" stuff would be OK for moderately large models. : No, I don’t plan to try this stuff in Combat – it’d be interesting to : use it as a streamer leader though – cut off the other guy’s wing : ^_^;; In *any* contact, the Spectra loses; it has a *very* low melting point and any friction cuts it instantly. For cutting wings off <grin, use Kevlar. In fact, for your use I would recommend it over Spectra, although it is not as UV-resistant; just don’t leave the lines out in the sun when you’re not using them and they should last for years.

Heh… Speaking of cutting off wings.. Yesterday I was at the first (for me) contest of the season. I got a kill off someone by snagging his streamer with my inboard leading edge. Problem was the string the management supplies was a little too think – it broke both spars and tore off half the inboard wing! — Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I was browsing around a couple weeks ago at the local Wal-mart and came across "Spider Wire" – a braided Spectra fishing line. I’ve also come across some in a Netcraft catalog – where its significantly cheaper ($11-16 for 150 yards). Apparently it comes in about 6 or 7 different thicknesses (.006 to ..013 inch) and 3 colors (green, grey, white) and is very strong. It doesn’t stretch. I will want to use the thin stuff for control-line wire for flying 1/2-As. Questions: 1) Does this stuff deteriorate badly in sunlight 2) Is it fuel proof (I assume so, its polyethylene) 3) How do you make ends? "Traditional" steel C/L wire is terminated   using copper or aluminum crimping sleeves. What about those   "fisherman’s knots" that are used for monofilament? The ones where   the line wraps around itself several times. One could substitute the   line clip for the fishing hook. Would crimping sleeves work? What   are these "sleeves" that kite fliers use? I wonder if the .013" stuff would be OK for moderately large models. No, I don’t plan to try this stuff in Combat – it’d be interesting to use it as a streamer leader though – cut off the other guy’s wing

Wow!  Control line.  It’s been about 35 years since I fooled around with C/L.  – fun stuff.   I use the polypro stuff for fishing.  I’d say it is fairly resistant to sunlight and fuels.  I would suggest tying to a small snap using a polamar or a trilene knot, then "seal" the knot with a tiny drop of super-glue. I suspect you could fly a Cessna 180 with the .013 stuff  I think I would try something around .008 or about 20# test for 1/2 A. The stuff is real slippery (good for loops) and that quality can be enhanced by spraying with ACE or any other generic brand of silicone lubricant. Have fun.

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1) Does this stuff deteriorate badly in sunlight

I’ve never had any problems with my lines deteriorating. 2) Is it fuel proof (I assume so, its polyethylene)

Wouldn’t know about this.  My kite sounds like it has a motor in it (several people have asked what kind of motor I’m using) but there really isn’t one…honest 3) How do you make ends? "Traditional" steel C/L wire is terminated   using copper or aluminum crimping sleeves. What about those   "fisherman’s knots" that are used for monofilament? The ones where   the line wraps around itself several times. One could substitute the   line clip for the fishing hook. Would crimping sleeves work? What   are these "sleeves" that kite fliers use?

I’d really like to hear what the fishing folks say about this as it’s the major bugaboo.  In kiting we sleeve each line before making a bend in it as the stuff is very brittle when bent.  We use parachute chord and thread the Spectra through it.  Then we can loop the cord back and tie it without problems.   This is true of normal fishing line as well and a simple knot will reduce the line strength by an order of magnitude.  Thus, there are several knots that try to get around this and are somewhat successful.  They amount to wrapping the line back on itself and around itself.  This increases strength by the simple redundancy so that the knot itself, while it weakens the area by the tying, doesn’t completely give up the strength.  In stunt kiting, though, we want 150-200lb test lines with the diameter of 6lb monofilament. I wonder if the .013" stuff would be OK for moderately large models. No, I don’t plan to try this stuff in Combat – it’d be interesting to use it as a streamer leader though – cut off the other guy’s wing

This is really the downside of Spectra.  It’s SHARP.  Any stunt kiter who tells you they’ve never been cut by it either hasn’t used it very long or they’re lying — # Canadian Forest Service              _||  |/|_                         # # Petawawa National Forestry Institute        /    Tel:  (613) 589-2880 # # Chalk River, Ontario  K0J 1J0         ______<     Fax:  (613) 589-2275 # # CANADA                                   /                              #

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Sleeving.. A needle of sorts.  Really nothing more than a loop of wire that’s pinched at two places to form an elongated loop.  You can then lay the line in one end and push the wire through.  You want something dull, though, so that you don’t tear through any fibres in the sleeving.  I’m sure you can buy sleeving at Into the Wind but I’ve just used parachute cord and it works fine.

What exactly is "parachute cord"? You don’t mean the stuff for full-size parachutes, do you? Incidentally, I hear that Kevlar lines need sleeving, too. Its Spectra vs. styrofoam, though. Maybe a spruce spar or two also. I don’t share the view that Spectra will always lose.  It’s not used on fighter kites because it is more brittle than other lines.  I doubt it would get through a spruce spar but it would likely take a considerable bite out of styrofoam.  The big problem would be cut-offs if it hit any of the clips, control cables, or metal/wood parts.  BTW, aren’t there rules against using anything but braided metal lines for anything but 1/2A?

Sullivan sells Kevlar control lines. They aren’t too popular, though. By the way, C/L airplanes behave much like stunt kites – you pull on one line and it turns one way, pull on the other and it goes the other Yeah, except you don’t have to worry about your competitor getting you upwind and loose

Yeah.. I’d like to see a kite fly upwind ^_^ The Kevlar seems a little thick (at least the stuff on sale at Wal-Mart) for 1/2-As, but we do plan to try it out. Its a lot cheaper than the Spectra, by the way. What is the "Wal-Mart" use for Kevlar?  I’ve never used it for kite lines but from talking to those who have, it just doesn’t hold up like Spectra. Might be the lack of UV resistance but most folks chalk it up to being "too brittle".

Its fishing line. "Stren" brand, to be exact. On the same display case for that matter. — Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala

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Wouldn’t know about this.  My kite sounds like it has a motor in it (several people have asked what kind of motor I’m using) but there really isn’t one…honest

I noticed that in certain kites there is a motor like sound when they fly.  Is it caused by the control line or by the farbic of the kite itself? 874 Dillingham Blvd.       | Honolulu, HI 96817         | Ph#: (808) 845-9202        |

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How is this done? A needle? Where do you get the sleeving? "Into-the-Wind"? (I visited their showroom in Denver once, by the way..)

A needle of sorts.  Really nothing more than a loop of wire that’s pinched at two places to form an elongated loop.  You can then lay the line in one end and push the wire through.  You want something dull, though, so that you don’t tear through any fibres in the sleeving.  I’m sure you can buy sleeving at Into the Wind but I’ve just used parachute cord and it works fine. In *any* contact, the Spectra loses; it has a *very* low melting point and any friction cuts it instantly. Its Spectra vs. styrofoam, though. Maybe a spruce spar or two also.

I don’t share the view that Spectra will always lose.  It’s not used on fighter kites because it is more brittle than other lines.  I doubt it would get through a spruce spar but it would likely take a considerable bite out of styrofoam.  The big problem would be cut-offs if it hit any of the clips, control cables, or metal/wood parts.  BTW, aren’t there rules against using anything but braided metal lines for anything but 1/2A? Something I’d forgotten to ask about is abrasion resistance and how easily it slides over itself. The stunt kite people ought to be able to answer this one.

This is not a problem.  You can wrap them up quite a lot before you start feeling friction problems.  It’s probably better than braided metal in this respect. By the way, C/L airplanes behave much like stunt kites – you pull on one line and it turns one way, pull on the other and it goes the other

Yeah, except you don’t have to worry about your competitor getting you upwind and loose For cutting wings off <grin, use Kevlar. In fact, for your use I would recommend it over Spectra, although it is not as UV-resistant; just don’t leave the lines out in the sun when you’re not using them and they should last for years. The Kevlar seems a little thick (at least the stuff on sale at Wal-Mart) for 1/2-As, but we do plan to try it out. Its a lot cheaper than the Spectra, by the way.

What is the "Wal-Mart" use for Kevlar?  I’ve never used it for kite lines but from talking to those who have, it just doesn’t hold up like Spectra. Might be the lack of UV resistance but most folks chalk it up to being "too brittle". — # Canadian Forest Service              _||  |/|_                         # # Petawawa National Forestry Institute        /    Tel:  (613) 589-2880 # # Chalk River, Ontario  K0J 1J0         ______<     Fax:  (613) 589-2275 # # CANADA                                   /                              #

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Sleeves are short lengths of braided dacron line; these are hollow braids. You slip a length of it over the Spectra (long enough to cover entire loop and knotted area) and then make the loop with a double- overhand knot, being careful to keep the two parts parallel through the knot. Some people recommend two d-oh knots a short distance apart to prevent the Spectra slipping through the knot.

How is this done? A needle? Where do you get the sleeving? "Into-the-Wind"? (I visited their showroom in Denver once, by the way..) : I wonder if the .013" stuff would be OK for moderately large models. : No, I don’t plan to try this stuff in Combat – it’d be interesting to : use it as a streamer leader though – cut off the other guy’s wing : ^_^;; In *any* contact, the Spectra loses; it has a *very* low melting point and any friction cuts it instantly.

Its Spectra vs. styrofoam, though. Maybe a spruce spar or two also. Something I’d forgotten to ask about is abrasion resistance and how easily it slides over itself. The stunt kite people ought to be able to answer this one. By the way, C/L airplanes behave much like stunt kites – you pull on one line and it turns one way, pull on the other and it goes the other way. The difference is that the lines are on a handle and you use one hand to do the controlling. I’ve seen stunt kites flown like this, except the "handle" is a 3 foot long broomstick. In fact, someone sells a "combat trainer" kite, ostensibly for learning how to fly C/L planes. There are also engineless C/L planes called "wind fliers". You fly them on the downwind side of the circle when the wind blows, assisting it now and then by whipping. For cutting wings off <grin, use Kevlar. In fact, for your use I would recommend it over Spectra, although it is not as UV-resistant; just don’t leave the lines out in the sun when you’re not using them and they should last for years.

The Kevlar seems a little thick (at least the stuff on sale at Wal-Mart) for 1/2-As, but we do plan to try it out. Its a lot cheaper than the Spectra, by the way. — Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala

Response:

The motor like sound comes from the vibrating trailing edge of the sail (fabric). Control lines can produce whistle like sound.

Gee Simo…did you really think I didn’t know that?  I was joking about the motor. — # Canadian Forest Service              _||  |/|_                         # # Petawawa National Forestry Institute        /    Tel:  (613) 589-2880 # # Chalk River, Ontario  K0J 1J0         ______<     Fax:  (613) 589-2275 # # CANADA                                   /                              #

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What exactly is "parachute cord"? You don’t mean the stuff for full-size parachutes, do you? Incidentally, I hear that Kevlar lines need sleeving, too.

I guess I’m showing my age by calling it that.  The stuff was developed for that use.  It comes in several diameters and you want the stuff that IS, indeed, useed in small parachutes (drag chutes).  And yes, Kevlar should be sleeved also. Yeah.. I’d like to see a kite fly upwind ^_^

– # Canadian Forest Service              _||  |/|_                         # # Petawawa National Forestry Institute        /    Tel:  (613) 589-2880 # # Chalk River, Ontario  K0J 1J0         ______<     Fax:  (613) 589-2275 # # CANADA                                   /                              #

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Wouldn’t know about this.  My kite sounds like it has a motor in it (several people have asked what kind of motor I’m using) but there really isn’t one…honest I noticed that in certain kites there is a motor like sound when they fly.  Is it caused by the control line or by the farbic of the kite itself?

The motor like sound comes from the vibrating trailing edge of the sail (fabric). Control lines can produce whistle like sound. Simo —

Response:

I’m cross-posting this to rec.fishing, and rec.kites (where Spectra lines have been used for a long time) in the hopes that I can get my questions answered. I was browsing around a couple weeks ago at the local Wal-mart and came across "Spider Wire" – a braided Spectra fishing line. I’ve also come across some in a Netcraft catalog – where its significantly cheaper ($11-16 for 150 yards). Apparently it comes in about 6 or 7 different thicknesses (.006 to .013 inch) and 3 colors (green, grey, white) and is very strong. It doesn’t stretch. I will want to use the thin stuff for control-line wire for flying 1/2-As. Questions: 1) Does this stuff deteriorate badly in sunlight 2) Is it fuel proof (I assume so, its polyethylene) 3) How do you make ends? "Traditional" steel C/L wire is terminated    using copper or aluminum crimping sleeves. What about those    "fisherman’s knots" that are used for monofilament? The ones where    the line wraps around itself several times. One could substitute the    line clip for the fishing hook. Would crimping sleeves work? What    are these "sleeves" that kite fliers use? I wonder if the .013" stuff would be OK for moderately large models. No, I don’t plan to try this stuff in Combat – it’d be interesting to use it as a streamer leader though – cut off the other guy’s wing ^_^;; — Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala

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<questions about Spectra) : 1) Does this stuff deteriorate badly in sunlight It is better than a lot of materials for UV resistance, but not UV-proof. : 2) Is it fuel proof (I assume so, its polyethylene) Dunno, never tried, but I’d tend to assume so, for the same reason as you. : 3) How do you make ends? "Traditional" steel C/L wire is terminated :    using copper or aluminum crimping sleeves. What about those :    "fisherman’s knots" that are used for monofilament? The ones where :    the line wraps around itself several times. One could substitute the :    line clip for the fishing hook. Would crimping sleeves work? What :    are these "sleeves" that kite fliers use? Sleeves are short lengths of braided dacron line; these are hollow braids. You slip a length of it over the Spectra (long enough to cover entire loop and knotted area) and then make the loop with a double- overhand knot, being careful to keep the two parts parallel through the knot. Some people recommend two d-oh knots a short distance apart to prevent the Spectra slipping through the knot. : I wonder if the .013" stuff would be OK for moderately large models. : No, I don’t plan to try this stuff in Combat – it’d be interesting to : use it as a streamer leader though – cut off the other guy’s wing : ^_^;; In *any* contact, the Spectra loses; it has a *very* low melting point and any friction cuts it instantly. For cutting wings off <grin, use Kevlar. In fact, for your use I would recommend it over Spectra, although it is not as UV-resistant; just don’t leave the lines out in the sun when you’re not using them and they should last for years. — …I studied with diligence Neptune’s laws, and these laws I tried to obey… <Joshua Slocum

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How is this done? A needle? Where do you get the sleeving? "Into-the-Wind"? (I visited their showroom in Denver once, by the way..)

Take a two foot length of thin wire (fishing leader or even your metal C/L line and bend it back on itself. Thread this wire into the sleeving material and then loop the spectra between the two sides of the wire and pull it back. Something I’d forgotten to ask about is abrasion resistance and how easily it slides over itself. The stunt kite people ought to be able to answer this one.

It is very slippery and does slide over itself. In this respect it would probably work great for C/L. Unfortunately, abrasion resistance is pretty low. Overall, Spectra is fragile stuff. Be careful about snagging it on objects or on the ground. If you do use it, check it periodically for nicks and abrasion points. The Kevlar seems a little thick (at least the stuff on sale at Wal-Mart) for 1/2-As, but we do plan to try it out. Its a lot cheaper than the Spectra, by the way.

For a given breaking strength, Kevlar and Spectra are about the same size in cross section. Stretching characteristics are also about the same. Kevlar is a lot tougher though, and you don’t have to worry so much about abrasion and contact with other lines. — Marty Sasaki            Harvard University           Sasaki Kite Fabrications 617-496-4320            10 Ware Street               Jamaica Plain, MA 02130                         Cambridge, MA 02138-4002     phone/fax: 617-522-8546

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Question:

From root Fri Mar 26 08:16:39 1993 Received: from macadam.mpce.mq.edu.au by galen.med.Virginia.EDU (AIX 3.1/UCB 5.61/1.34) Received: from ipc15.mpce.mq.edu.au by macadam.mpce.mq.edu.au (5.64+/1.1) Received: by ipc15.mpce.mq.edu.au.mpce.mq.edu.au (5.64+/SMI-4.1) Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing Organization: Macquarie University, School of Mathematics, Physics, Computing and Electronics Status: OR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What is a flathead? Jit Keith Boyd writes: Damn, don’t they have dictionary’s where you are??  Or are you just too lazy to look it up??   Flathead Catfish – (Plyodictis olivaris) – a large yellowish brown-mottled catfish of the central and Gulf States.   Taken from Webster’s Ninth Coll. (and no they don’t meow, they have "whiskers") Keith And no, the "whiskers" won’t sting ya’…… unless, of course, you’re wading and fly fishing! bobby — "I have been told that men are natural warriors and killers and that women are naturally kind, natural mothers, the protectors of stray cats and waifs." – Jack O’Connor – Complete Book of Shooting – 1965

Yo Bobby,         You might want to post this since I can’t, i only have read access to the net, but I thought I might enlighten you about the Australian Flathead.         It is no relation to any catfish we have but is (if you know where to go) a rather large, good fighting and good eating fish, with dangerously sharp spikes on the sides of it’s  head that can rip flesh to pieces, so so much for the quote they won’t sting,         but if you ever get the chance to chase some of our flathead, it’s one of the best fishing experiences you’ll get down here. Rob McNaught. * I’m not crazy                          * Robert McNaught.                    * * is insane.                             *                                     * — "I have been told that men are natural warriors and killers and that women are naturally kind, natural mothers, the protectors of stray cats and waifs." – Jack O’Connor – Complete Book of Shooting – 1965

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -From root Fri Mar 26 08:16:39 1993 Received: from macadam.mpce.mq.edu.au by galen.med.Virginia.EDU (AIX 3.1/UCB 5.61/1.34) Received: from ipc15.mpce.mq.edu.au by macadam.mpce.mq.edu.au (5.64+/1.1) Received: by ipc15.mpce.mq.edu.au.mpce.mq.edu.au (5.64+/SMI-4.1) Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing Organization: Macquarie University, School of Mathematics, Physics, Computing and Electronics Status: OR What is a flathead? Jit Keith Boyd writes: Damn, don’t they have dictionary’s where you are??  Or are you just too lazy to look it up??

*  Kieth:  If you are so damned hot with a Webster’s, learn how to spell.                      It’s "dictionaries" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Flathead Catfish – (Plyodictis olivaris) – a large yellowish brown-mottled catfish of the central and Gulf States.   Taken from Webster’s Ninth Coll. (and no they don’t meow, they have "whiskers") Keith And no, the "whiskers" won’t sting ya’…… unless, of course, you’re wading and fly fishing! bobby — "I have been told that men are natural warriors and killers and that women are naturally kind, natural mothers, the protectors of stray cats and waifs." – Jack O’Connor – Complete Book of Shooting – 1965 Yo Bobby,    You might want to post this since I can’t, i only have read access to the net, but I thought I might enlighten you about the Australian Flathead.    It is no relation to any catfish we have but is (if you know where to go) a rather large, good fighting and good eating fish, with dangerously sharp spikes on the sides of it’s  head that can rip flesh to pieces, so so much for the quote they won’t sting,    but if you ever get the chance to chase some of our flathead, it’s one of the best fishing experiences you’ll get down here. Rob McNaught. * I’m not crazy                          * Robert McNaught.                    * * is insane.                             *                                     * — "I have been told that men are natural warriors and killers and that women are naturally kind, natural mothers, the protectors of stray cats and waifs." – Jack O’Connor – Complete Book of Shooting – 1965

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