Question:

I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.   I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Response:

I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.   I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

        why not just post all their pictures, with names, family member’s names, and school lunch schedule.  that ought to make *somebody* happy…. wayno

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.  I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott      why not just post all their pictures, with names, family member’s names, and school lunch schedule.  that ought to make *somebody* happy…. wayno

It’s a good thing my new Cabela’s clearance moleskin shirt sheds nasally- ejected coffee like water off a duck’s ass, or I would be really pissed right now   Scott

Response:

A group outing makes the most sense.  Contact your local Scout office and volunteer.  Definitely, if there’s a Scout camp nearby that would be an ideal opportunity because they are heavy on merit badges during camp.  On the off chance that they already offer the program at camp, remember that not all the boys can make it to camp, so it would be an excellent gesture to offer a separate program. You can get some good info here: http://www.bsaflyfishing.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A group outing makes the most sense.  Contact your local Scout office and volunteer.  Definitely, if there’s a Scout camp nearby that would be an ideal opportunity because they are heavy on merit badges during camp.  On the off chance that they already offer the program at camp, remember that not all the boys can make it to camp, so it would be an excellent gesture to offer a separate program. You can get some good info here: http://www.bsaflyfishing.com/ I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Thanks, Stan.  I’ll let you know what we come up with. Scott

Response:

I served my term as assistant scoutmaster and have helped do this before there was a flyfishing badge.  It was just a fishing badge at the time and three of us did it for the scouts in our sons troop and one other. Call the local counsel (there on the web) and get a list of the troops near you.  They will have the names and phone numbers of the troop Scoutmasters.  Call the troop leaders and tell them what you are willing to do.  They will be all over you.  They are always looking for and welcome help. The scouts have booklets that detail the steps for earning every merit badge.  The emphasis is to have the scouts do all the work; your role is to be teacher and advisor. You can run the program for the whole troop or for just a couple of boys, depends on how many are interested. It’s the boys who decide if they want to get the badge. If your names on the list as an advisor some boys will seek you out. Some of the things we did were:  1.) Gave hands on demos on fly tying at one of their regular meetings.  We started using a parachute cord and an 8/0 hook and then let them go with the six vices and various materials we brought. They all managed to tie a couple of flies.  2.) Depending on where they meet you can bring in some rods and give casting instructions. 3.) You can let them come to your house and work at your bench and tie a few flies. .  You have to have at least two boys there at a time, no one on one instruction is allowe.  Let them see you stuff, explain how it works and maybe cast some in your back yard.  This is the point where some of them become lifetime flyfishers.  4.) You take them on an outing.  This part may educate you as much as them.  Pick a spot that safe and has catchable fish.  I wouldn’t count on a lake at a Boy Scout Camp having any cacheable fish. This is where you will need more help.  Get more volunteers for the trip one on one instruction is a big help here.    Twenty wild kids on a river with fly rods, wading, throwing rocks, and just being boys. It’s a great experience.  I cannot recommend it enough. .     – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.   I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Response:

The scouts have booklets that detail the steps for earning every merit badge.

Apparently it will cost $15,000 to print up all the booklets and the scouts are currently seeking donations to defray that cost. Mu

Response:

I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something.

There’s one on the White river in central WI.  Great hex hatch too.  Don’t know about a dozen or so scouts flailing the water in the dark though. Wolfgang

Response:

Don’t know about a dozen or so scouts flailing the water in the dark though.

A noble quest, but I don’t think I’d wanna be the responsible party that hands them a fish hook or anything else that could potentially put me on the defendent end of a PI suit when somebody sticks a hook in his eye.   Maybe a dozen pairs of cheap safety glasses would be a good investment. Call me paranoid, Joe F.

Response:

A noble quest, but I don’t think I’d wanna be the responsible party that hands them a fish hook or anything else that could potentially put me on the defendent end of a PI suit when somebody sticks a hook in his eye.   Maybe a dozen pairs of cheap safety glasses would be a good investment. Call me paranoid, Joe F.

Both TU and the Scouts have mechanisms to deal with insurance issues.   Safetly glasses should be mandatory.  I won’t cast without them.  I also walk around with a whistle in my vest, but I’m paranoid. Scott

Response:

Wiscoy Creek runs right through Camp Sam Wood right near Pike, NY.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Response:

Both TU and the Scouts have mechanisms to deal with insurance issues. Safetly glasses should be mandatory.  I won’t cast without them.  I also walk around with a whistle in my vest, but I’m paranoid.

It’s been my limited experience that should anything unfortunate happen, TU, BSA, the rodmaker, the hook manufacturer, and you personally will get named in a suit.   Sure, you’d probably get out of any liability, but it’ll still cost a few shiny nickles in legal fees.   Lawsuits are a bitch for the innocent.   Didn’t mean to get so serious about it, but being married to a (former) property/casualty insurance agent will do that to you.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wiscoy Creek runs right through Camp Sam Wood right near Pike, NY. I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Thanks.  There’s also a pretty nice campground right on the Eastkoy that might be suitable.  Not many tent spots, though.  Seems taken up by permanent RVs Scott

Response:

I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.   I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

well, I don’t know about good water compared to other areas, but in NJ there’s the Big Flat Brook that goes through Stokes State Forest which has an adjacent Boy Scout Camp. The BFB is known for decent trout FFing. Rob

Response:

Question:

In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup.  This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.)  I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since.  It’s here merely as an FYI.  However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post.  end of my msg. After some informal discussions in private email with a few regulars here, I have decided the time has come to request a full Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) against the most obvious and antagonistic trolls in [newsgroup]. This UIP is, of course, fully voluntary; each of you is encouraged to do your own thinking and follow your own conscience on this matter. However, I am convinced that a coordinated UIP is the surest way to restore a higher signal:noise ratio to this group. What do I mean by "ignore?"  It goes beyond killfiling, or resisting the impulse to reply to outrageous or inflammatory statements.  We must take the next steps, as well:  We must not even mention these trolls in passing, in humor, or in contempt.  We must not mention them *at all*.  In a properly executed UIP, the recipients of that UIP essentially cease to exist, even as a memory, except possibly insofar as the data packets carrying their unread posts faintly rattle around the network.  They cease to exist.  The group merely goes on about its business as if the trolls never showed up. Who are the trolls in question?  In the spirit of the UIP, I would prefer not to name names.  However — and I speak just for myself here — I would be less than honest not to name [our pest] as the prime example and motivator behind this effort.  Most of you are probably well acquainted with [their] favored techniques.  They include the making of allusions to a hostile old guard, or "clique," in this group; repeated complaints about smear tactics being used by their adversaries; a simultaneous plea to "just talk [hobby]" while continuing to engage in inflammatory accusations unrelated to [hobby]; and quickly embracing certain unpopular (but not trollish) contributors to the group as a way of demonstrating "mob mentality" among those who dislike those contributors. Other trolls might have their own methods.  My belief is that anyone who shows up making inflammatory statements with the apparent intent of drawing attention to himself is probably a troll.  There are others, besides [our pest], who are on my personal list, but I won’t mention them here.  The point is that I encourage you always to ignore trolls as completely as possible.  (My intent, btw, is for this to be my last ever mention of [our pest], in [newsgroup].) Finally, to make this a coordinated effort, I would like for anyone who agrees to participate in this UIP to followup to this post, quote only the paragraph that follows, and write, "I agree," where others can clearly see it.  (You may wish to add specific further comment after that, as I have.)  This henceforth will be referred to as the "2002 RSG Pledge."  If you agree to it, prepare to get grief from me if you break it!  :)  But remember: I respect that the degree to which you participate in this is entirely your decision.  Some of you may prefer to silently participate without publicly embracing the pledge.  I respect that choice, too. —cut here if you agree— "In the interest of preserving the usefulness of [newsgroup] as a forum for discussion of the game as well as a place for friends to affiliate in a collegial manner, I agree not to respond in [newsgroup] to any posts made seemingly solely to disrupt that atmosphere, regardless of their inflammatory or even defamatory nature. Further, I agree that those who habitually post in such a fashion are not worthy of any discussion or even mention in [newsgroup], and that therefore I will not make any specific mention of any of these individuals in any post to this newsgroup."

Response:

Hey, Fishreeler, I’ll see you at Penns.  I will show you a lovely stretch of water called Frank’s Pool, found by your friend Frank Reid.  Of course, Peter Charles and I cleaned out the pool before Frank could land a fish, but that’s another story.  And, much to the disgust of other roffians, I’ll make a nympher out of you.  <g Dave

Response:

     As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World.

Believe it or not, that is sometimes the exact perspective needed.   Your early experiences and lessons learned can be valuable advice to another just staring out.   Not everybody here is an expert, nor is everyone who comes through the door.   Even the jaded and experienced will take joy in your progress.   Post what you know, what you learn, what you experience.   It’s as valuable and welcome here as any of the esoteric baloney the experts post. Welcome to the nuthouse. Joe F.

Response:

fishreeler welcome! Look, as long as you avoid words like "meniscus" and the "the Kreh Effect" [  : - ) ], and try not to blatantly sell things [  ]. you can pretty much say what you want without fear of too much in the way of reprisals.  Most of the group is interested in discussions relating to our mutual interest in fly fishing.  I personally have never been flamed for asking a dumb question, and I think that if you ask  begineer type questions that are interpreted as sincere you’ll be fine.  Periodically, someone will take umbrage to a question if they believe there is some ulterior motive to the question- like a potential spammer trying to get a sales op for instance. I butted in to my first clave at Ennis 2 years ago after being a lurker for a only a few months.  Met some great people with a wide variety of fishing, and other, experiences.  I believe this is the real fun of this group.  I can wander down to the local fly shop and BS about fishing the Blackfoot whenever I want- but to hear about North Carolina, or the San Juan, or Wisconsin is pretty interesting- to me.  The claves are fun too because you can put a name to a face and a real person and learn something from some damn fine fisherman – sometimes even fishing related stuff. As with all groups, there is a tremendous variety of knowledge and experience present.  Take advantage, have fun, and be responsible about what you post. john

Response:

Ken,      I would hope that all who read my post understood that I took no sides in the matter. I was just stating my personal opinion on the whole matter as the new guy. Being that everyone has been in the realm of ROFF for a while, I believed that maybe, just maybe, my opinion would breath a breathe of fresh air into the room.      There are no sides for me, you enjoy fishing, I enjoy fishing, everyone in here enjoys fishing. I say that that puts me on the winning team overall. I may not be as eloquant in writing in my posts as others, but nonetheless, the point is given.      Thanks for the reply, and I cant wait to go to Penns! Fishreeler——<< "Danno Mattice"

Response:

Fishreeler?  Strange name. It’s easy to not get involved in flame wars – if somebody flames you, walk away.  If somebody really pisses you off, killfile ‘em. Make sure Frank brings a warm sleeping bag this year, but tell him to leave the tutu at home.  You’ll have fun at Penns… –Stan

Hmmmm!!! Frank never told me about that. But I could always find a soft tree out by the creek and fall asleep by the sounds of the water instead of listening to the rustling of a tutu. Fishreeler came about when I was trying to find a screen name on AOL. That is when I was with AOL. So, I have adopted the name as my own now. Seems that all you other fisherman and women took all the good names at the time. However, I kinda like the name and it grows on me. Not to say that I am an expert, but have been doing it for a while. Thanks to all for the warm reception. Fishreeler—–<< Danno Mattice "Cant think of anything quippy to put at the end of my post yet, I havent seasoned enough in ROFF yet"

Response:

… I was just stating my personal opinion on the whole matter as the new guy.

As a new guy, your opinions on "the whole matter" are not likely to be well received, inasmuch as they’re not only negative but uninformed. Your opinions and observations about our shared avocation, on the other hand, are most welcome and may very well be a breath of fresh air for some. See you on the stream. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To George’s Post,     As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering. First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else. And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info.

And another note to new readers.  You do NOT have to read rdean’s posts in their entirety.  In fact, none of us have.

Response:

<whole buncha stuff snipped      This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed. Fishreeler?  Strange name.

made me think of trolling…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To George’s Post,     As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering. First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else. And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info. And another note to new readers.  You do NOT have to read rdean’s posts in their entirety.  In fact, none of us have.

Something I am not only grateful for, but that I count on and plan for, I assure you.  That way, I can say any damned thing I wish – Jeff C. secretly yearns for TBone’s rather unusual sex life, for example – and by the time those who read only various parts attempt to get their stories straight, no one can remember what it was that I claimed or denied to have said… TC, R …that’s my story and I’m sticking to it…unless you can prove otherwise, in which case, google made a mistake…

Response:

To George’s Post,     As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering.

First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else.   And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info.  Where I have addressed "you," it’s more addressing the point raised than _you_ specifically, but as your post inspired it, take what you will from it, too.  It’s all IMO, YMMV. As to Ginkles, read his posts and responses to and regarding Frank Church and the fly swap, if none other, to see just a portion of what he is all about.  I rarely advise others against anyone, preferring to allow them to discover and choose for themselves, but regarding Ginkles, I’ll make an exception.  However, if you do choose to befriend him, I’d not hold that decision against you. That said, a few things, all IMO and, of course, YMMV:  First, you seem to be lumping every slight you may have observed, real and what you perceive as real, into the same pile, and IMO, that’s not correct. Of course, there are, um, (generally good-natured) debates where the language may get heated and sarcastic, but likely as not, the apparent "combatants" would drop the debate and go fishing, drinking, whatever together at that very second were it possible.  That is a far cry from attacks by and on Ginkles and others who do or attempt to do real damage.  FWIW, there are only two people, on all of ROFF, past and present, who I would not associate with, Ginkles being one.  As I’ve said it publicly before, so I feel nothing wrong in restating the obvious.  The other, who shall go unnamed, I’d be willing to give the benefit of the doubt should we ever be faced with that situation as the "rift" is, IMO, strictly a difference in personality, not me thinking them as being truly warped.  I suspect that most, if not all, here on ROFF would say a very similar thing. Secondly, any of the, er, debating that takes place is strictly voluntary, and I’ve not seen anyone "attacked" as some seem to imply without the "attackee" getting involved, either by diving in, suggesting that those doing so are wrong, offering opinions on why they are wrong, tips on how to be right, etc.  The best rule on these "debates" is to get in or stay out, because wading in the shallows is still in the water.  If you do wade in the shallows and still get bit, remember that damned little of it is personal, and don’t take it as such. This brings us to a cause of some real problems – getting personal. Don’t do it.  What I mean is going beyond the person on ROFF.  No family members, job/career, etc. unless you are DAMNED sure of what you are doing and willing to deal with the sometimes-dire consequences of making a mistake.  For example, there are several lawyers here, and while a general humorous remark about lawyers is likely OK, "jokingly" accusing one of malpractice is likely gonna get your head torn off, and rightfully so.     As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy.

Then you’d never post anything, and that’s a pity.  There will _always_ be someone more knowledgable than _everyone_ , and they may or may not even participate on ROFF.  So who cares?  99.99 percent of FF’ing and the related info, on or off ROFF, is opinion, guesses, observations, and other highly subjective things.  Heck, the rankest newbie might be the only one in a group with 100 experienced FF’ers to guess, opine, observe, etc., correctly.  As to asking questions, of course, sometimes, someone will have a bad day, not had sex with their wife, been forced to have sex with their wife, gotten up on the wrong side of the bed, or a host of other things that leads to teeing up on someone for no apparent reason.  That ain’t ROFF, USENET, or anything computer-specific, that’s life, and if _that_ is what worries a "newbie," they are screwed before they start.  If you take that sort of thing personally, IMO, ROFF ain’t the problem.   So ask away, and if someone tees up, either ignore it or give it back in spades, but remember that pissing and moaning about it will just invite more.  Again, that isn’t ROFF-specific, that’s life.  As to ROFF itself, go back and look through some threads – when it does happen, it isn’t the "feeding frenzy" some imply, it’s generally one person who, for whatever reason, got their back up, while others either gave the requested info or called the person on their conduct (or both). Which brings us to the next tip: there is a "pecking order," and again, this isn’t ROFF-specific.  There is no real "clique" in that newcomers are excluded simply for being newcomers, but there is a core of people who have been around awhile.  People who have been around awhile do develop a sort of "seniority," most come to "know" each other over the years, and many have actually met or have met in a "7 degrees of separation"-kinda way, and so, can get away with personal liberties, such as chastising, that newcomers (An aside – ya know, I think I like "newcomer" more than "newbie") cannot expect to be able to do.  And yet again, this factor isn’t ROFF-specific, you’ll find it on just about any NG, because that’s the way all of life seems to be. Remember that although this is, to a large extent, not a "face-to-face" medium, and that creates a new, and for some, odd, context.  There are people here who "know" each other, care about each other, know details that only friends would know, share things only friends would share, talk regularly as friends do, etc.  The only "new" thing about some of these friends is that they’ve never _all_ physically met.  But they are friends, nonetheless, and so, act just as two/several friends would act if in the same physical space as opposed to the same electronic space.  And just as with them being in the same physical space, a newcomer can’t expect to simply walk up and be treated as one who has a history with the group.  That doesn’t mean he can’t walk up and begin the process.  So, then, what’s stopping you, or any other potential new friend, from "walking" on up? I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field.

Fuck ‘em. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner.

Basically, other than the tackle differences, and the delivery of same, it’s all just attempting to fool fish with stuff that, amazingly, actually manages to sometimes fool them.  Nobody lives or dies based on FF’ing knowledge, so a newcomer is as welcome to be wrong as the rest. A bunch of good stuff snipped, because it didn’t seem to warrant comment. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Respectfully submitted,

Response:

 Lying, cheating or stealing for personal benefit I can understand, if not respect.  These characters, though…. it’s like cheating yourself.  It’s like inflicting self-abuse. It defies understanding.

These are the kind of people who cheat at solitaire and then are happy that they won.  Weird. — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

fishreeler, i’m looking forward to wetting a line with you in may. fer gawd’s sake, don’t take wading lesson’s from frank <g –waldo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To George’s Post,      As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering.      As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy. I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner. However, I thought that there are always those who would be out there that enjoy spoilling it for others who love the sport so much. To make themselves inferior of that person. Somehow they get grattification out of making others miserable, and if they succeed, it is a good days work.      I know that most people in this arena are here out of love and respect for the art of fly fishing and tying. Otherwise, if they did not get that simple pleasure of just talking about it, they wouldnt be here. We wouldnt be here. Right?      I feel that I have more of a love for the sport than a disgust for those who would try to spoil it for me. Therefore, I will be around for a while with this group and I will enjoy the information that is passed here so that I can become a better fly fisherman, more informed and better equipped to go after the end result, getting out on the water and using what I have learned to catch fish.      This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed. I will probably be the newest newbie there too, but that doesnt matter. I know that there will be some fine fisherman there who will be more than happy to take me under their wing and teach me what I came there for. It will be a total learning experience for me and I am very excited. I wish that we were in April making final preperations. They all come together in a brotherhood out of the goodness and simplicity of just getting back to the water. A migration, just as with the trout. This is the impression that I get from Frank.      In final, we must all take the good with the bad, and make our own decisions if that is the type of person that we would want to hang with, or even talk with. Noone is any different than the next person, only in perception from the recipient of the criticism or the person who dishes it out. I know that I for one have my own opinions on certain people in here. Some are fishing Gods, and others are fishing Dogs. I know who I will be talking to.       THis is all in my own opinion, I just felt, that as the newbie here, I would get my opinion in while I can. Fishing is a learning experience for me, however, life has been with me for much longer.      Thank you both for posting what you did. I know that I feel much better about being here, especially when most of you know how I feel.      Thank you very much, once again. Bravo! Respectfully submitted,

– Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

Response:

To George’s Post,      As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. …      Thank you both for posting what you did. …

Oh yeah, chiming in on a hypocritical screed from the village idiot is the perfect way to win friends and influence people around here. Looking forward to meeting you at Penns. You’ll find this place a lot more entertaining when you put some real faces with the screen names. The flyfishing info itself around here is unmatched anywhere I’ve ever seen, it’s a very rare case when a politely posed (and I mean that in the context of netiquette) query goes unanswered. The "entertainment" is admittedly an "acquired taste". Hang in there and wait til after Penns before going all judgmental on us. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

<whole buncha stuff snipped      This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed.

Fishreeler?  Strange name. It’s easy to not get involved in flame wars – if somebody flames you, walk away.  If somebody really pisses you off, killfile ‘em. Make sure Frank brings a warm sleeping bag this year, but tell him to leave the tutu at home.  You’ll have fun at Penns… –Stan

Response:

To George’s Post,

<newbie’s views snipped for brevity Respectfully submitted,

   Dan, hang in with us.  It not all pissin’ into to wind.  This is a Jeckyl and Hyde kinda place, one moment its the Weakest Link on Jerry Springer and the next its linking arms with Barney the Purple Sauropod, singing Kum By Ya while we try to conjure the spirits of Lee Wulff and the Grand Dame.    As I told you this a.m.  Post some trip reports, ask a few salient questions and hang on for the ride.  Don’t be afraid to get flamed. An insult is like a shot of scotch, it only affects you if you accept it.    You will be welcome at the clave (hey, you don’t snore do you?). Oh, the things you will see; lawyers in horizontal striped longjohns, Pirates’ BVDs (best veiwed from a distance), flaming MBA’s juggling boxes (did I get that word order right?), druidic clavemeisters praying to the river Gods, old lech’es luring young mothers into the water for a back rub, naked coed volleyball teams and Amish strippers.     You will also see some of the best fishermen and fisherwomen (I’ve just used up my PC quota for the year) in the world.  Not only are they good at what they do, but they are great at teaching.  The Pirate and Makela on nymphing, Littleton on fly selection, Petah on streamers, Fleischman on cigars, and I’ve even heard that one or two folks can teach you about scotch.     By the way, the price for use of the spare bunk in my tent is a week’s supply of Yeungling.         Good luck and welcome to ROFF.                 Frank The Younger (and better looking) Reid

Response:

Lemme guess, Jeff. Was this over on RSG? I recall some real jewels over there. Wasn’t there some gal that made herself the self-appointed leader of the group. I may be wrong on that, but one things for sure. every circus has it’s own freaks.

Yes.  But coincidentally there is also a George there who has also spammed unashamedly, and trashed the reputation of his "business" (such as it is) virtually beyond repair.  He refused to see the wisdom of participating like a Walt, Bill, Brian, Al, etc. who all have enriched both their personal lives and their businesses, no doubt, at the same time.  Rather, he chose the path of the fool (he "chose poorly" to quote "IJ and the Last Crusade"), and suffered equally in both areas of his life.  It’s always fascinated me when someone chooses self-destruction.  Lying, cheating or stealing for personal benefit I can understand, if not respect.  These characters, though…. it’s like cheating yourself.  It’s like inflicting self-abuse. It defies understanding.

Response:

Lemme guess, Jeff. Was this over on RSG? I recall some real jewels over there. Wasn’t there some gal that made herself the self-appointed leader of the group. I may be wrong on that, but one things for sure. every circus has it’s own freaks.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup.  This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.)  I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since.  It’s here merely as an FYI.  However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post.  end of my msg. — After some informal discussions in private email with a few regulars here, I have decided the time has come to request a full Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) against the most obvious and antagonistic trolls in [newsgroup]. This UIP is, of course, fully voluntary; each of you is encouraged to do your own thinking and follow your own conscience on this matter. However, I am convinced that a coordinated UIP is the surest way to restore a higher signal:noise ratio to this group. What do I mean by "ignore?"  It goes beyond killfiling, or resisting the impulse to reply to outrageous or inflammatory statements.  We must take the next steps, as well:  We must not even mention these trolls in passing, in humor, or in contempt.  We must not mention them *at all*.  In a properly executed UIP, the recipients of that UIP essentially cease to exist, even as a memory, except possibly insofar as the data packets carrying their unread posts faintly rattle around the network.  They cease to exist.  The group merely goes on about its business as if the trolls never showed up. Who are the trolls in question?  In the spirit of the UIP, I would prefer not to name names.  However — and I speak just for myself here — I would be less than honest not to name [our pest] as the prime example and motivator behind this effort.  Most of you are probably well acquainted with [their] favored techniques.  They include the making of allusions to a hostile old guard, or "clique," in this group; repeated complaints about smear tactics being used by their adversaries; a simultaneous plea to "just talk [hobby]" while continuing to engage in inflammatory accusations unrelated to [hobby]; and quickly embracing certain unpopular (but not trollish) contributors to the group as a way of demonstrating "mob mentality" among those who dislike those contributors. Other trolls might have their own methods.  My belief is that anyone who shows up making inflammatory statements with the apparent intent of drawing attention to himself is probably a troll.  There are others, besides [our pest], who are on my personal list, but I won’t mention them here.  The point is that I encourage you always to ignore trolls as completely as possible.  (My intent, btw, is for this to be my last ever mention of [our pest], in [newsgroup].) Finally, to make this a coordinated effort, I would like for anyone who agrees to participate in this UIP to followup to this post, quote only the paragraph that follows, and write, "I agree," where others can clearly see it.  (You may wish to add specific further comment after that, as I have.)  This henceforth will be referred to as the "2002 RSG Pledge."  If you agree to it, prepare to get grief from me if you break it!  :)  But remember: I respect that the degree to which you participate in this is entirely your decision.  Some of you may prefer to silently participate without publicly embracing the pledge.  I respect that choice, too. —cut here if you agree— "In the interest of preserving the usefulness of [newsgroup] as a forum for discussion of the game as well as a place for friends to affiliate in a collegial manner, I agree not to respond in [newsgroup] to any posts made seemingly solely to disrupt that atmosphere, regardless of their inflammatory or even defamatory nature. Further, I agree that those who habitually post in such a fashion are not worthy of any discussion or even mention in [newsgroup], and that therefore I will not make any specific mention of any of these individuals in any post to this newsgroup."

Response:

To George’s Post,      As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering.      As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy. I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner. However, I thought that there are always those who would be out there that enjoy spoilling it for others who love the sport so much. To make themselves inferior of that person. Somehow they get grattification out of making others miserable, and if they succeed, it is a good days work.      I know that most people in this arena are here out of love and respect for the art of fly fishing and tying. Otherwise, if they did not get that simple pleasure of just talking about it, they wouldnt be here. We wouldnt be here. Right?      I feel that I have more of a love for the sport than a disgust for those who would try to spoil it for me. Therefore, I will be around for a while with this group and I will enjoy the information that is passed here so that I can become a better fly fisherman, more informed and better equipped to go after the end result, getting out on the water and using what I have learned to catch fish.      This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed. I will probably be the newest newbie there too, but that doesnt matter. I know that there will be some fine fisherman there who will be more than happy to take me under their wing and teach me what I came there for. It will be a total learning experience for me and I am very excited. I wish that we were in April making final preperations. They all come together in a brotherhood out of the goodness and simplicity of just getting back to the water. A migration, just as with the trout. This is the impression that I get from Frank.      In final, we must all take the good with the bad, and make our own decisions if that is the type of person that we would want to hang with, or even talk with. Noone is any different than the next person, only in perception from the recipient of the criticism or the person who dishes it out. I know that I for one have my own opinions on certain people in here. Some are fishing Gods, and others are fishing Dogs. I know who I will be talking to.       THis is all in my own opinion, I just felt, that as the newbie here, I would get my opinion in while I can. Fishing is a learning experience for me, however, life has been with me for much longer.      Thank you both for posting what you did. I know that I feel much better about being here, especially when most of you know how I feel.      Thank you very much, once again. Bravo! Respectfully submitted,

Response:

It simply takes discipline   Peter

I’m on your side Pete.  But for Pete’s sake, Pete, you know most of these guys smoke and drink and quit doing anything takes real discipline, which they don’t have . . . so that thesis goes right down the toilet.  These guys just don’t have will power. Thing is Pete, I’m more addictive than cigarettes, alcohol, or even women.   Life sucks, but it sure is better with you in it Pete. Hang tough padre, keep up the good ideas; George Please note the equal opprotunity response I returned to you? You’re welcome Pete.

Response:

So, similar problems in rec.sports.golf?  Gee, I thought only ROFF had problems with trolls.  Unfortunately, the last time this was tried here, it did reduce the flame wars, but didn’t deter the troll.  He just acted like everybody loved him because the attacks went away.  He probably increased his posting.  That would make a good research project for the Deja miners.

I would expect that anyone who indulges in this behaviour and is subjected to this consequence, would escalate his/her trolling in an effort to break the discipline of the group.  If the group cracks, things go back to normal.  If group discipline holds, the posts *will* disappear.  People who indulge in this behaviour abhor silence. It simply takes discipline and the willingness to stick with it over the long haul.  If some people continue to indulge the troll for their personal enjoyment or out of a warped sense of fair play, they weaken the effect.  Whether a diminished chorus would remain sufficient amusement for the troll, is difficult to say.  100% compliance is a practical impossibility and it is not needed.  The group replies have to drop below the threshold of the individual’s need for attention. Once that need is not being met at a sufficient level, the individual will move one. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Well, I choose to go to tools, options, send and uncheck the send immediately box. this allows me to respond vigorously, vent my feelings and get a load off my mind. then the next day I can re-read the stuff in my outbox and see if I still want to send it… Is something like that what you are talking about Jeff…..? john

Response:

So, similar problems in rec.sports.golf?  Gee, I thought only ROFF had problems with trolls.  Unfortunately, the last time this was tried here, it did reduce the flame wars, but didn’t deter the troll.  He just acted like everybody loved him because the attacks went away.  He probably increased his posting.  That would make a good research project for the Deja miners.

Frankly Stan, with a little cooperation of mature debating and without having a need to throw rocks, it is easy to agree with you because you just said it better than I ever could. As I had posted, most sincerely to Jeff’s opinion, I’m only a barometer of Roff.  I had explained so many times, talk nice to me and we and many others will talk nice to you.  I am surprised about rec.sports.golf has the same problem because personally, I cannot suffer fools and I see you are the same because you are not the foolish kind nor are you in roff to prove anything, as I am.  I just happen to be a fighter.  I may not be tactful because that only works with gentlemen.   I believe this will all tone down once roff realizes that darwinian isn’t a license to act like the wild west.  I, like you enjoy learning new things and roff does have some mighty smart people in it.  It also behooves many of my email determines how some college graduates who are now in the white collar trades can lose their cool so quickly in roff with each other and so often? For sake of good order, it would make no difference in roff if I left, which I did for four weeks recently.  Roff STILL found others to feed upon and there is no denying this fact.  Roff is like the snake that always has to bite someone because it is its nature.  That old saying is in fact very true as it applies to this group in general. I have observed that on the side, there are men in roff which I regard as top drawer.  That they must try and communicate in such a beehive of raging maniacs of false, insulted sensibilities (or any other excuse they deem fit) to exposes their frustrations, short of hitting on their wives or daughters, is frankly . . . so amazing!  Roff, in so many ways is but the mirror of those who deal daily with bad bosses, supervisors, duel personalities in the social scheme of things that they come to roff to "dump on anyone" they can, just to get even.  Frankly, what I don’t know about Roffian behavior and why people such as Ken Fortenberry, David LaCourse, and his ilk like Charlie Choc behave as they do is much greater than any of us know.  Which means, they can’t help being the way they are!  They are just pissed at the world in general. Frankly, I’m really a very funny guy in person and I have a great sense of humor Stan.  Venting hostilities with humor would serve a good many in roff a lot better then swearing at each other.  There is a knack at putting down anyone cleverly, if that is their need but it is my opinion it takes a better man to lift someone’s spirits rather than jumping on a Newbies just to show off one’s intellectual dominance. I have always said that when you put two people in a room, as in roff, one mind will always try and dominate the other.  When it comes to two gentlemen who respect each other, that is seldom the case.  They simply enjoy talking to each other.  Roff has forgotten how to enjoy talking with each other. I notice the fondness in general of the folk in North Carolina have for each other and it is gentle jousting but it is intended in friendship. Outside that area, it doesn’t generally extend to the west coast, have you noticed?  Those who play together get along better together has merit and that is why I’ve always thought a Conclave would be a good idea and they have proven to be just that. Now then, since I’m on a roll here, I should explain that the reason I have yet to want to attend any Conclave is I don’t believe in trying to be comfortable with anyone that in person, they smile at each other as if they never attacked each other then go home and be so vicious with each other when they are gone.  This Jeckle/Hyde persona just doesn’t wash with me.  It is  two faced, it is cowardly, and it doesn’t allow my nature to trust such people away and/or in person.  A man should be exactly as he seems here as he should be in person.  Understanding, reason, giving allowances, benefit of the doubt, all go a long ways. Certain Roffians could care less how reasonable someone tries to be with them.  They don’t want that.  They want the chaos to continue and they will do anything to keep it going. Roff has some professional trollers who’s job it is to influence public opinion and I will leave it at that.  They have that writing style that points to them like a flashing red light. They are somewhat knowledgeable but they are also totally predictable.   Over a good period of time Stan, we all get a sense of where we want to be in Roff.  I know there are several hundred fly fishing people who watch and read roff periodically and they leave in disgust.  They leave and won’t post not because they did anything disgusting, but because Roff is its own best enemy.  People want to visit friendly people, and when ROFF as a whole allows the type of personal demeaning behavior of people like Ken Fortenberry, or any of the others that talk the same way to others to continue, it simply is not the place they want to be.  Roff is just poorer for it and it behooves me and many others how so many in roff are fearful of correcting what they think are their friends? Possibly, you don’t agree Stan, but you’ve written me in private before and your messages have always been on a high plain and enjoyable.  Why can’t all the others talk to each other with the same respect and interest?  Take me out of the picture, the banter never stops.  It is time to stand up and be counted and I sure know I can stand up as reasonable as anyone else in roff. As they will say in Utah . . . "let the games begin." Just don’t change Stan, because I sure haven’t. ; ) Your pal, George Gehrke "the house pest"

Response:

So, similar problems in rec.sports.golf?  Gee, I thought only ROFF had problems with trolls.  Unfortunately, the last time this was tried here, it did reduce the flame wars, but didn’t deter the troll.  He just acted like everybody loved him because the attacks went away.  He probably increased his posting.  That would make a good research project for the Deja miners.

Response:

In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup.  This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.)  I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since.  It’s here merely as an FYI.  However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post.  end of my msg.

You know Jeff?  This is so full on nonsense I can’t believe you actually believe this stuff?  Case in point. Just recently, a gentleman asked a question about whether he should weight his nymphs or not.  To the last man in ROFF, EVERYONE said yes. Okay.  Fine and good. I Post in Roff my opinions and experiences gathered in over 50 years in fly fishing partner.  I was the only one to say, "No, you don’t want to do that," and I proceeded to explain the "why of it." Seems, according to the responses to "George’s Post" how hard everyone tried to tear the years of experience I had with Nymphing, apart.  Now then, do you care to deny this? I wrote a very intelligent, factual, informative piece in which I’d wager my life upon, everyone had received "food for thought," because they never heard this "stuff" before.  Do you care to deny this also? Just because I am the mirror of ROFF, doesn’t mean I’m a Village Idiot at all. The idiots are those who stoop to lower levels because "they didn’t think about or know what I know" and it galls them to listen to a winner.  Big dang deal.  Ask me if I care? All you guys should realize I haven’t changed one bit since the first day I arrived to help out in Roff.  What you all haven’t learned is that I’m my own man.  You talk to me nasty and like the mirror I am, you will get back exactly the same in return.  The worse you give the same about you receive.  Haven’t any of you learned this yet?  You talk nice to me and others and you get exactly the same in return.  But you know what? A lot of you are too stupid to have figured this out in several years now. LaCourse goes back and pulls out a nasty piece of response but he doesn’t bring up the post it was responding to, does he.  Roff’s whole history, is one of the Key Board Colt .45  The great equalizer.  So if some of you will start reading this post with a little open mindedness, you might get insight not into me so much as much as you will about yourselves.   Case in point:  Every one of you go back and match YOUR POSTS to me. The good get good and serious responses.  The Ugly get slapped right back in the face.  Simple as that. Now then, I will admit to past "trolls, or baiting roff," which isn’t hard to do, but I haven’t done that for a while.  When I do this, I put in this:  ; ) cast . . . mend, etc. and this some of you know is my way of stirring some fun up, but I can’t remember ever starting something in a hateful or mean manner.  Outside that, I’m the same "George the Fly Fisherman" you have always known. The problem with ROFF is never have I seen the truth exploited as well where "Familiarity Breeds Contempt."  Some of you would do well to stop and read this carefully because I’m not pulling any punches with you now.  I have had many well know fly fishermen, and all of you know I am close to many of them, who have said to me . . . "I have seen what a bunch of jerks are in Roff George and if I were to come there to help, sooner or later they would start the same things with me."  Well, this is TRUE!  Not all, those who have ever piled upon my back are the same ones that would do it to others, no matter what the famous fly fisherman was.  Why?  Because deep down, some of you bastards have an insatiable need to demean people who have made it up the ladder of success. I see the same thing happen yearly with the qualified gentry of fly fishing.  One was in a bar having evening cocktails with me.  Before long, our table was filled with fly fishermen horning in.  They weren’t invited to join us, but it comes with the territory.  So here I am, letting you guys in on what goes through our heads because we ARE human.  We don’t say anything, and soon all the chairs are full, others are pulled up and then there is a standing crowd.  It isn’t long, someone makes a wise crack to my well known friend, where upon, without comment . . . (not much) he gets up and quietly leave for his room. I do the same. Why is it, some of you guys simply are jerks?  This isn’t MY opinion but it is the common thread I receive from all around this world about YOU GUYS!  I didn’t say, "about me," but YOU GUYS!   A bunch of you think you’re righteous because you have a common bond of being a bunch of junk yard dogs who dare anyone to come in here and invade your domain.  This is nonsense. There is a lot of talent watching your every thread and I’m talking fly fishing talent that would bury Roff!  BURY IT!  They don’t come here because they hate your guts and that is the truth.  However; these same people are writing me behind your back saying one common thing.  "Hang in there George.  Don’t quit.  I love everything you write regarding fly fishing, etc."  Now this is the truth.  You Sludge Slugs of Roff can feed on your own hateful nature, fill your egos by trying to demean others and as I said before, you really are only demeaning yourselves. What you see with me is what you’re going to get.   I’m not going anywhere gentlemen.  I’m staying right here.  If you don’t want to read my stuff, go party somewhere else because this is "MY SANDBOX" and your here talking to me because you’re invited.  What I mean by that is, you talk nice to me and if I respond, that is the invite.   That’s the way its going to be.  Take it or leave it, and frankly I’d prefer if some of you simply leave it because you do nothing but waste good air. So you do have a choice.     George Gehrke "Fly Fisherman" http://www.gink.com A Site full of bastards

Response:

Question:

Yes, but I want to boycott the store for having such an annoying jingle! Pete

Response:

Indeed a great store. I remember shopping at the original Galyans’ in Plainfield Indiana when it was pretty much a pole barn on a slab (A really big pole barn admittedly) They’ve come along ways since their purchase by the Gap (yep the angst filled teen store). Allen Catonsville, MD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, but I want to boycott the store for having such an annoying jingle! Pete

Response:

We just got a Galyan’s in our neck of the woods recently.  I went in to pick up some gift certificates for the crew at work for the holidays. What impressed me was the more complete range of quality that they carry over comparable stores in the neighborhood, like Dick’s.  For example, in the fishing dept they carry fly rods from Browning to Loomis.  For what its worth, it also seems to be the only chain sporting goods store in our area that sells handguns, and I respect that because it’s probably a bigger pain in the ass to them then the revenue it generates justifies, but they do it to remain "full service". They also have a customer service system where when a salesperson helps you, they peel a bar code off their own sheet and stick it on your purchase, and they read these codes when you pay.  This seems to be a nifty way to make sure that the sales people are doing their jobs.  I’m not sure if they reconcile this against the dollar amount of the sale (making it more likely to get help if it looks like you’ll be making a large purchase), but in any case I had knowledgable sales help coming up to me repeatedly. At checkout, they clued me in to their preferred customer club.  They make no bones about it–they want to track your purchases.  In exchange they will email or snail mail you with offers that seem to be in your buying categories, but you can opt out of these mailings.  Also, when you join this   "club", they will send you a $15 coupon off a purchase of $75 or more (the form says it takes up to three weeks to get the coupon). Store seems incredible.  I thought I died and went to sportsman’s heaven.  I was shopping so avidly I consider myself a traitor to my sex (sporting goods or not)! Scott

Response:

Question:

Kevin;         As one of the ROFF skulkers who occasionally squeaks out a word or two, I would like to answer your question with a question.  That is, can you sign this insurance paper for me?  Please don’t take the good rods with you, just leave them at home along side a recent will naming me your beneficiary.        I’ve been in and out, through and under float tubes around the world, if there is a way of screwing up your life with a tube, I’ve done it.  ANY MOVING WATER FASTER THAN 1/2 MILE AN HOUR CAN KILL YOU.  You will be amazed at how much pressure moving water can put on you when you are hung on a snag.  Yes, you may be strong and virile, but cold water saps strength quickly and something that is a minor problem at the start of the day will do you in at the end of the day.        There is a river in England that flows just north of Cambridge and runs into the North Sea.  This river is called (seriously) the Great Ouse. Ouse actually is an ancient word meaning river.  It is so slow (it has many locks to keep it that way), that you can paddle up stream in a tube with a bit of difficulty, but it can be done.   After a day of fishing this wonderful pike and chub Mecca, my tube got caught on a bit of rebar that was still encased in cement.  Normally I would have just pushed off of it, but I was so cold and tired that I ended up cutting my saddle out with my emergency knife (always carry a serrated edge folding knife in your life vest or fly vest.  They will save your life.) and sliding through the bottom.  I swam to shore and shivered until some coarse fishermen came to my rescue.      We always fish until we can’t fish anymore, till we can barely move our arms, till climbing one more bank will give us a coronary.  We are men so we work past the pain ’cause we’re having fun.  Add the strength and endurance sapping abilities of cold water, mix in a bit of fluid dynamics and voila, one more float tubing widow using that Sage as a tomato stake.      Yeh, this story was a bit of a downer, but I want to hear the story of how many fish you caught when you get back.                                                         Frank Reid

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m thinking of getting a belly boat to float down the bow in.  Is this a suicidal thing to do? Would I be better off buying a (much more expensive!!!) pontoon boat? Thanks KB

Response:

Ok I’m convinced.  Thank you for saving me from making a very silly mistake! I’ll take a look at pontoon boats. I think they’re a couple of hundred more than a belly boat though, so I may just settle for bellying in lakes this year.

Actually if you look at pontoons that are made for moving water they are way more than a couple of hundred more. I’ve got a friend who guides in them and he has a hobie and an outcast. the hobies are no good for rivers according to him, and he wouldn’t risk his life in one, his outcast pac 9 however, is very safe. The downside is a pac 9 is about $1000 us. Flyfish

Response:

Kevin, Check out the new Water Skeeter Pontoon boats at http://www.finecast.net/ws/wsindex.html Fine Cast

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m thinking of getting a belly boat to float down the bow in.  Is this a suicidal thing to do? Would I be better off buying a (much more expensive!!!) pontoon boat? Thanks KB

Response:

Suicidal?  Likely.  While most of the Bow in and downstream from Calgary looks pretty benign, there are a lot of sunken snags and sweepers which you WILL catch your dangling feet on, and get rolled under by.  I would approach with extreme caution, and the higher you are out of the water, the better. Besides, a float tube will not be able to be manoeuvered as quickly as a pontoon or proper drift boat, so you’ll end up floating through and right by many nice runs.  Go rent a ‘toon, and have a better time.

Response:

Ok I’m convinced.  Thank you for saving me from making a very silly mistake! I’ll take a look at pontoon boats. I think they’re a couple of hundred more than a belly boat though, so I may just settle for bellying in lakes this year. My Uncle lives in Ely, near Cambridge and I’ve fished the Ouse (I think it was was Ouse anyway), back when I was fishing for Dace, Chub, Bream and Gudgeon (caught a lot of eels instead) with maggots, cheese, sausage and using float and ledger rods (the English way of fishing!) It’s funny I tried really hard to fish english style when I came to Canada but had almost no luck. This fish are different here!  I took up Fly fishing and haven’t looked back, although I do have fond memories of sitting by the canal with a double maggot/caster combination, checking the lie of the float and all that good stuff! Cheers Kevin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kevin;         As one of the ROFF skulkers who occasionally squeaks out a word or two, I would like to answer your question with a question.  That is, can you sign this insurance paper for me?  Please don’t take the good rods with you, just leave them at home along side a recent will naming me your beneficiary.        I’ve been in and out, through and under float tubes around the world, if there is a way of screwing up your life with a tube, I’ve done it.  ANY MOVING WATER FASTER THAN 1/2 MILE AN HOUR CAN KILL YOU.  You will be amazed at how much pressure moving water can put on you when you are hung on a snag.  Yes, you may be strong and virile, but cold water saps strength quickly and something that is a minor problem at the start of the day will do you in at the end of the day.        There is a river in England that flows just north of Cambridge and runs into the North Sea.  This river is called (seriously) the Great Ouse. Ouse actually is an ancient word meaning river.  It is so slow (it has many locks to keep it that way), that you can paddle up stream in a tube with a bit of difficulty, but it can be done.   After a day of fishing this wonderful pike and chub Mecca, my tube got caught on a bit of rebar that was still encased in cement.  Normally I would have just pushed off of it, but I was so cold and tired that I ended up cutting my saddle out with my emergency knife (always carry a serrated edge folding knife in your life vest or fly vest.  They will save your life.) and sliding through the bottom.  I swam to shore and shivered until some coarse fishermen came to my rescue.      We always fish until we can’t fish anymore, till we can barely move our arms, till climbing one more bank will give us a coronary.  We are men so we work past the pain ’cause we’re having fun.  Add the strength and endurance sapping abilities of cold water, mix in a bit of fluid dynamics and voila, one more float tubing widow using that Sage as a tomato stake.      Yeh, this story was a bit of a downer, but I want to hear the story of how many fish you caught when you get back.                                                         Frank Reid I’m thinking of getting a belly boat to float down the bow in.  Is this a suicidal thing to do? Would I be better off buying a (much more expensive!!!) pontoon boat? Thanks KB

Response:

I’m thinking of getting a belly boat to float down the bow in.  Is this a suicidal thing to do? Would I be better off buying a (much more expensive!!!) pontoon boat? Thanks KB

Response:

Question:

Professional Bamboo Fly Rod Builders Forum is the place.  The place to come on over and post in a first class forum anything and everything you wish to get across regarding fly fishing. Pick your subject; whatever interests you, or suggest a NEW one?   If anything, you owe it to yourselves to look.  It doesn’t cost a thing . . . to peek. (you peekers, you!) THERE IS EVEN A WHOLE ROOM JUST FOR Tim Walker aka T-Bone! Presented by: George Gehrke / American Sportsman http://gink.com/discus/index.html

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The Earth revolves around the sun, not George. If you want relief from the G-crap, ignore this thread.

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Snipped to save space: Oh?  You mean this one? Professional Bamboo Fly Rod Builders Forum is the place.  The place to come on over and post in a first class forum anything and everything you wish to get across regarding fly fishing. Pick your subject; whatever interests you, or suggest a NEW one?   If anything, you owe it to yourselves to look.  It doesn’t cost a thing . . . to peek. (you peekers, you!) THERE IS EVEN A WHOLE ROOM JUST FOR Tim Walker aka T-Bone!

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G you sir are a MORON

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G you sir are a MORON

doug knight strikes again! God!  Am I lucky or what?

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G you sir are a MORON

LOL! MrG.

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G you sir are a MORON doug knight strikes again! God!  Am I lucky or what?

No George, You are a colplete IDIOT, I don’t need a mask to bash you, You do it to yourself often enough. I have left you alone, In hope that you would return my money that I have asked for a full refund. Leave me out of your fuckin’ mess. — Doug Knight                          metalfab<atpacbell.net Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $500.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

Response:

Question:

Being a new guy here, I don’t know shit…(get out the keyboard soap) but evidently Mikey must live in a coutry where they charge by the minute for phones and access….without experimenting until my brain slips a cog (happens often-sorry) wouldn’t it be possible to download this newsgroup on a regular basis, zip the files and e-mail them to him?? wouldn’t that save him a few bucks  (400 is much more than a few)….?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Left for the following reasons (in order): 1. Spam 2. Indian Rights 3. USA vs. Brits 4. Nasty emails vis-a-vis #2 & 3 5. #1-3 cost him over $400 last month. Says he doubts that he will return. — Ken Fortenberry I started the USA vs Brits thread as an attempt to lighten the mood of the posts that were being made at that particular time.

Actually, a Brit named Tony Deacon started the whole thing (not that particular thread) with a totally gratuitous insult of American culture. When someone insults a country on Usenet you can expect angry replies, and rightly so. The "Indian Rights" thing started when someone posted a claim that commercial fishing, not the Lower Snake dams, was responsible for the decline of the Snake River salmon, and that morphed into Indian Rights. A thread that to one person is nothing but off-topic rants might be very interesting to someone else. I found the Indian Rights thread to have value, once you got past the race baiting, but I can see why a European might get bored by it. Some Europeans seem miffed that Usenet is dominated by Yanks. Too bad. Let them post some European-specific stuff. I won’t mind at all. I thought Mike Connor changed his telephone to a flat-rate service. Why the $400? It’s really no one’s responsibility in ROFF to keep Mike’s or anyone else’s Usenet-related bills down. Hell, we can reduce them to nearly zero by just shutting down the whole thing. I hope MC returns. I liked some of his doggerel verse and his prose fiction, he obviously knows a lot about many kinds of fishing, he added a welcome and needed European perspective to ROFF, and he’s generally a very smart and creative person. But I’m not going to lose any sleep over it. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Actually, a Brit named Tony Deacon started the whole thing (not that particular thread) with a totally gratuitous insult of American culture.

The fact of the matter is it started off as a joke.  Tony and I were joking around,at least that was the impression that I got.  Some people took this a little too serious and then the thread ended up with threats.  I think that is what really pissed Mike off. Believe me RW, I am not losing any sleep over this either.  It does bother me because Mike was a valuable source of knowledge.  I was constantly amazed at the amount of info that man had locked in his brain housing group.  The part that I liked most was that he didn’t try and make you feel stupid about it either. I sent Mike an email once expressing my appreciation for his help on several things I had questions with.  Mike would typically point me in the direction so that I could research the topic on my own and give me a few pointers of his own.  It was always short, helpful and contributed greatly to my own knowledge base. I am not saying that Mike C was the only person with lots of knowledge on a broad variety of topics, but he was a class act that is going to be missed by those who ask lots of questions around here.  Not to mention his writings….. Warren

Response:

It won’t be the same as having him on ROFF, but he does write a column and have a chat  group on "Fly Anglers on Line" http://www.flyanglersonline.com/ Ernie Harrison See Ernie’s Fly-Fishing Stuff:   http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, a Brit named Tony Deacon started the whole thing (not that particular thread) with a totally gratuitous insult of American culture. The fact of the matter is it started off as a joke.  Tony and I were joking around,at least that was the impression that I got.  Some people took this a little too serious and then the thread ended up with threats.  I think that is what really pissed Mike off. Believe me RW, I am not losing any sleep over this either.  It does bother me because Mike was a valuable source of knowledge.  I was constantly amazed at the amount of info that man had locked in his brain housing group.  The part that I liked most was that he didn’t try and make you feel stupid about it either. I sent Mike an email once expressing my appreciation for his help on several things I had questions with.  Mike would typically point me in the direction so that I could research the topic on my own and give me a few pointers of his own.  It was always short, helpful and contributed greatly to my own knowledge base. I am not saying that Mike C was the only person with lots of knowledge on a broad variety of topics, but he was a class act that is going to be missed by those who ask lots of questions around here.  Not to mention his writings….. Warren

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        have i missed something here?  where the hell has connor gone? vacation?  work?  pissed?  under arrest? wayno

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        have i missed something here?  where the hell has connor gone? vacation?  work?  pissed?  under arrest?

Left for the following reasons (in order): 1. Spam 2. Indian Rights 3. USA vs. Brits 4. Nasty emails vis-a-vis #2 & 3 5. #1-3 cost him over $400 last month. Says he doubts that he will return. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 3 – Tar Heels 1

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Says he doubts that he will return. — Ken Fortenberry

What a shame.  One of the more enjoyable personalities on ROFF, IMO.  Always enjoyed his stories. Keith Brewster

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Left for the following reasons (in order): 1. Spam 2. Indian Rights 3. USA vs. Brits 4. Nasty emails vis-a-vis #2 & 3 5. #1-3 cost him over $400 last month. Says he doubts that he will return. — Ken Fortenberry

I started the USA vs Brits thread as an attempt to lighten the mood of the posts that were being made at that particular time. I in no way meant to hurt anybody’s feelings and if you look at the original post I think that is evident.  Mike was usually the first one  that responded to me when I would post a question and I will surely miss him if he is truly gone. Mike, if you were offended in any way by my USA vs Brit post, I apologize. Tim

Response:

Could it possibly be that he is busy with personal things? He’ll be back.  He’s just busy.  Mike is not the type of man that would go away in a snit without saying good-bye. I miss him but will not help to clutter up his mail box by e-mailing him.  Just give him a little room, folks.   Dave LaCourse

Response:

He told me the same in an email over the weekend.  I surmised that he is very busy as well, but the tone of his message didn’t leave me with the impression that he was interested in returning to this happy band. Tom — Tom Brown The Signal Group Wake Forest, NC It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone.  War was always here.  Before man was, war waited for him.  The ultimate trade awaiting the ultimate practitioner.                                                 Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Left for the following reasons (in order): 1. Spam 2. Indian Rights 3. USA vs. Brits 4. Nasty emails vis-a-vis #2 & 3 5. #1-3 cost him over $400 last month. Says he doubts that he will return. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 3 – Tar Heels 1

Response:

He told me the same in an email over the weekend.  I surmised that he is very busy as well, but the tone of his message didn’t leave me with the impression that he was interested in returning to this happy band.

What a whimp. He leaves, we grieves, and goze limp. He didn’t say bye… I wonder why… Not gonna cry… just wonder why. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

… He didn’t say bye… I wonder why…

He’s a class act, that’s why. If one decides to filter another poster or unsubscribe from a newsgroup one simply does so. No whiny recriminations, wounded, emotional farewells or parting shots necessary or appropriate. Mike’s last post was titled "Guilty". It was eloquent, and as appropriate a farewell as I’ve seen. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

What a whimp. He leaves, we grieves, and goze limp. He didn’t say bye… I wonder why… Not gonna cry… just wonder why. Your pal, "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Mike evidently never considered it necessary to remind anyone on this group that he was "Your pal," and he was right.  Your constant reminder notwithstanding I suspect few will miss you as much as we will Mike. "Guilt debased the meal…"

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What a whimp. He leaves, we grieves, and goze limp. He didn’t say bye… I wonder why… Not gonna cry… just wonder why. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

He did say bye, He did say why, He just didn’t serve it up Like yesterday’s pie. Peter

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He didn’t say bye…

I think it was when you were off sulking the latest time. — Charlie…

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Good one Charlie Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He didn’t say bye… I think it was when you were off sulking the latest time. — Charlie…

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EEEHH   GADS! Come back Mikey – all other verse is worthless without ye! RalphH

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What a whimp. He leaves, we grieves, and goze limp. He didn’t say bye… I wonder why… Not gonna cry… just wonder why. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" He did say bye, He did say why, He just didn’t serve it up Like yesterday’s pie. Peter

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If it is indeed true that Mike has left for the reasons listed below, then I’m inclined to think that the whole "ROFF is Darwinian" concept isn’t as great as some have made it out to be. I for one thought Mike’s posts were a rare species worth protecting from extinction. Steve Zimmerman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Left for the following reasons (in order): 1. Spam 2. Indian Rights 3. USA vs. Brits 4. Nasty emails vis-a-vis #2 & 3 5. #1-3 cost him over $400 last month. Says he doubts that he will return.

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Bullseye! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What a whimp. He leaves, we grieves, and goze limp. He didn’t say bye… I wonder why… Not gonna cry… just wonder why. Your pal, "Guilt replaced the creel…" Mike evidently never considered it necessary to remind anyone on this group that he was "Your pal," and he was right.  Your constant reminder notwithstanding I suspect few will miss you as much as we will Mike. "Guilt debased the meal…"

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Question:

WELL DONE I LAUGHED ALL WAY THROUGH IT

Response:

Have I’ve got a good one for you! I traveled to British Columbia the last week of August to visit family up in Mackenzie. My new brother-in-law (affectionately known as Phlem) is a real die-hard fly fisherman. Me – a die hard bass fisherman (picture a bass boat, 150hp, 10 rods, 400 crankbaits, 500 jigs, 4000 pieces of rubber, and 5 more tackle boxes; all hurtling insanely down the lake at 60+ mph). Anyway, he convinced me that I should try my hand at fly fishing for the first time. So I borrowed my brother

Question:

Looking for any information on working Bamboo?–

Response:

Looking for any information on working Bamboo?–

If you know any soldiers who have had experience in tropical jungle country they should know quite a lot about the use of bamboo.   Two genders  -  male and female – the male being smaller in diameter and more solid than the female which cam be of large diameter but hollw with relatively thin walls.   Chairs are more often made from Rattan which grows in conditions similst]r to bamboo and has very sharp spikes amongst its leaves.   That is about all I can tell you as I have only used it within the jungle scene using a khukri to cut it and split it to make beds, tables and the like.   The hollow inside the female variety is good for cooking rice or stuffing with explosive. — Charles (Joe) Stahelin Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK

Response:

Looking for any information on working Bamboo?– If you know any soldiers who have had experience in tropical jungle country they should know quite a lot about the use of bamboo.   Two genders  -  male and female – the male being smaller in diameter and more solid than the female which cam be of large diameter but hollw with relatively thin walls.   Chairs are more often made from Rattan which grows in conditions similst]r to bamboo and has very sharp spikes amongst its leaves.   That is about all I can tell you as I have only used it within the jungle scene using a khukri to cut it and split it to make beds, tables and the like.   The hollow inside the female variety is good for cooking rice or stuffing with explosive.

Please do not forget its use as an ersatz mortar tube. Propped up at an angle and lashed to another piece of bamboo which had been lashed horizontally between two trees. To this day I cannot figure out how they managed to get the trajectories so close!

Response:

I have seen bamboo laminates (3-ply) used for flooring recently.  According to the literature I read, it is actually harder than Red Oak, and makes a very interesting floor due to the very fine grain, or what resembles grain, and the nodes seem to be spaced very uniformily.  I have no idea how they remanufacture the finished product, but I am assuming they use the Timber type which grows 60+feet in a season.  I’d be interested to know how they mill it, etc..  Good luck. . .

Response:

Intermediate Technology Publications publishes a book entitled:         Building with Bamboo: A handbook , Second Edition It is 88 pages and costs 9 pounds.  It discusses preparing bamboo for construction use, joints, and common building practices.  Please email me if you want more information re: publisher address, etc. Sorry, I discarded the original poster’s name and address. Douglas Stockman

Response:

I have seen bamboo laminates (3-ply) used for flooring recently. According to the literature I read, it is actually harder than Red Oak, and makes a very interesting floor due to the very fine grain, or what resembles grain, and the nodes seem to be spaced very uniformily.  I have no idea how they remanufacture the finished product, but I am assuming they use the Timber type which grows 60+feet in a season.  I’d be interested to know how they mill it, etc..  Good luck. . . Bamboo’s actually a very fast growing species of grass, grows something like 1-2" per day.  It’s a light weight, excellent material for things like kite frames or construction scaffolding.  I’ve seen pics in Nat. Geo. of Taiwanese construction crews using the stuff for scaffolds reaching 10-12 stories above ground.  It can be worked by splitting, planing, and scraping.

Response:

I’m new to the group…So far I like what I see.. I am looking for 2" diameter or larger bamboo to use for door frame and window frame in a special project. I searched all of my suppliers here in the Southeast. Closest I got was fresh stalks from the Atlanta Zoo. I would like something that was already cured. I would appreciate a suppliers name and number. Thanks in advance. David Holec Exhibit Manager SciTrek – Science and Tecnology Adventure Atlanta GA

Response:

Hello, My dad has some contacts in Japan and could get some Japanes bamboo (larger diameter), but probably wouldn’t be cost effective unless you wanted a large amount. There is a forum about bamboo at www.woodfibre.com.  You might want to pose the same question there and they should be able to help. Don Yasaki HH & NK Co., Ltd.   Kings Mtn., NC Kiln-dried Hardwoods – Sawmill Direct Prices tel (704) 739-6914             fax (704) 739-7336 http://www.unc.edu/~dyasaki – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new to the group…So far I like what I see.. I am looking for 2" diameter or larger bamboo to use for door frame and window frame in a special project. I searched all of my suppliers here in the Southeast. Closest I got was fresh stalks from the Atlanta Zoo. I would like something that was already cured. I would appreciate a suppliers name and number. Thanks in advance. David Holec Exhibit Manager SciTrek – Science and Tecnology Adventure Atlanta GA

Response:

Try these two URL’s: http://www.bamboo.org/abs/ http://www.communety.com/mintec/welcome.html Keith Bohn b2d – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m new to the group…So far I like what I see.. I am looking for 2" diameter or larger bamboo to use for door frame and window frame in a special project. I searched all of my suppliers here in the Southeast. Closest I got was fresh stalks from the Atlanta Zoo. I would like something that was already cured. I would appreciate a suppliers name and number. Thanks in advance. David Holec Exhibit Manager SciTrek – Science and Tecnology Adventure Atlanta GA

Response:

Does anyone have ideas or plans for making things out of Bamboo trees? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Does anyone have ideas or plans for making things out of Bamboo trees?

Sure. I make split bamboo flyfishing rods. By the way bamboo is more properly called a plant, not a tree. Darryl Hayashida

Response:

Does anyone have ideas or plans for making things out of Bamboo trees?

No plans unfortunately, but look at some books dealing with late 19th century furniture design – in England and America there was a craze (Japonisme) for anything with an Asian aesthetic and faux (and real) bamboo chairs, cabinets, hall trees and such were briefly "all the rage".  Most of this furniture was painted in black, gold, white, or other color combinations… Kevin

Response:

Does anyone have ideas or plans for making things out of Bamboo trees?

        Bamboo is a grass not a tree.  It is a plant but that is too general a term.         I do not know of any books of making things with bamboo.  I a sure I have never seen one.         I will through in this piece of advice from experience.  Do NOT try to blast a driveway through a bamboo hedge with explosives.  This is a ver bad move.         Riley

Response:

Sure. I make split bamboo flyfishing rods. By the way bamboo is more properly called a plant, not a tree.

Try a grass.

Response:

Does anyone have ideas or plans for making things out of Bamboo trees?

Fly rods!!!  Try FWW #34:68.  Hoagy B. Carmichael (Stardust’s son) wrote a great book on making them. Also, you can build scaffolding with it.  Check out building construction in Indonesia, and other SE Asian countries. mccs

Response:

Does anyone have ideas or plans for making things out of Bamboo trees?

Actually, bamboo is a pretty versatile building material. My projects recently have  jinvolved making tables out of bamboo. The legs and table-top base are made using normal lengths of bamboo. The surface of the table-top is made by splitting the bamboo longitudinally to make about inch thick panels which can be nailed to the table-top base. My attempts so far have been a bit rough, but the result is not too bad. Cheers, Brendan. — C.S. Dept., James Cook University,        Phone:  (077) 815085. Townsville, QLD, 4811.  Australia.        There’s only one catch – Catch 22.

Response:

Does anyone have ideas or plans for making things out of Bamboo trees?

Sure. I make split bamboo flyfishing rods. By the way bamboo is more properly called a plant, not a tree. Darryl Hayashida

There is almost nothing you can’t make out of bamboo.  It’s a whole technology all by itself.  You should be able to find several good books in your library. Miles Hollister

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Sure. I make split bamboo flyfishing rods. By the way bamboo is more properly called a plant, not a tree.

It is indeed not a tree, but I believe you meant that it is a grass, not that it is a plant (which is of course true.) The fact that it is a grass accounts for the strange chambered structure, as well as its astonishing growth rate. (I read these things in a recent industrial design magazine discussing bamboo’s usefulness, growth worldwide. Sorry, don’t remember the title.) Karl

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Question:

#but hes like the Senator from my state Jesse #Helms. You may not always agree with him but you always know where #he stands, #he doesn’t teeter or waiver from his beliefs. somebody said back there a bit–if it’s true, why isn’t Jesse insisting that the coons stay in their own part of town as he did back in the good old days? Helms changes, like everybody whose standards are flexible and who considers himself to be a man of principle but returns to the senate voluntarily.  (and many thinking folks hope he comes to his senses.) As for Gierach, he’s an excellent stylist with an ironic wit, and it’s all fiction mind you, which appellation our BB seems to aspire to much more recently. "Strait-laced" as Shakespeare (or should I say the Earl of Oxford?) had it–the pompous Malvolio of Twelfth Night made a fool of himself by coming around in the opposite look, the dandified and contrived "cross-gartered" style. . .in other words, he went out as what he wasn’t, and was laughed off the creek for it.  Went insane, if I remember correctly.  And Shakespeare wrote about what he wasn’t for a buck, collected "such rascal counters" happily; he would have signed his name for more if he’d had the chance, I reckon. Dave

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I actually met John Gierach in Lyons, Colorado at Mike Clarks shop  this last fall.  We stopped by the shop on our way to the Frying Pan.  John G.  was actually very pleasant and eventhough he didn’t have to stay and talk, he did. I haven’t read all the posts about him, but wanted to put in me 2 cents worth about my brief contact with him and how he seemed like a pretty decent guy, besides being a great writer!

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I met John Gierach in Lyons, Colorado at Mike Clarks shop… John was

actually very pleasant and even though he didn’t have to stay and talk, he did. … he seemed like a pretty decent guy,besides being a great writer! Hey Skilch, you’re right about Gierach. I live "up the road" from John, and bump into him, Mike, and the clan on the high country streams occasionally. I’ve also yakked with him at Mike’s rod shop, and been to John’s fly tying clinics. I don’t know Gierach very well, but I like the guy – and I certainly admire what he’s been able to accomplish in his career. Anybody who can win the Robert Traver Award for excellence in outdoor writing, author thousands of magazine articles, newspapers columns, and ten of the best selling fly fishing books in recent history is bound to invite some criticism from those who wish to hell they had his gift – and his success. Too bad. Regards, Dennis

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[deleted] and ten of the best selling fly fishing books in recent history is bound to invite some criticism from those who wish to hell they had his gift – and his success.

Please. Noone (at least not me) is being critical of either: 1) the fact that john is a nice guy  or 2) that they envy his gifts. If you read past the subject line in these posts, you would have had no need to defend him on those scores. In my critical estimation, as a consumer of flyfishing books, John Gierach is a good writer, but not a great writer.  He got someone to publish him, in my opinion, and the rest is history.   Steve Spinolio is a better writer, in my book, than John Gierach, or Russell Chatham.   I enjoy John Geirach at least as much or more than E. Donnel Thomas, "Whitefish Can’t Jump", but they are very much on the same, simple, short story format that does not define great writers.   I like Ted Lesson’s writing better than Gierach. Again, it has nothing to do with John being a good guy or a clever successful hard-working man.  I am certain that he is all that.  You don’t buy a flyrod or a car for that matter just because the builder is a ‘nice guy’.   I liked James Bashline, who was not a writer, really…but offered me something of value in "Nightfishing for Trout". A sad truth is, IMO, the sale of books often has as much to do with the publishers backing them and the level of gloss on the dust jacket as it does quality of content.  The best thing you could do as a writer is get Nick Lyon’s in your court.  That is power there. The number of sales define the number of awards and some of us are simply critical of the writing itself and are not star struck, nor do we have penis envy.  In Johns case, he has moments of really good stuff, but overall the stuff is repetitive, monotonous, politically correct and often boring.   To me, life offers more exciting fishing trips than John Gierach does in his writing.   So sue me. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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: In my critical estimation, as a consumer of flyfishing books, John Gierach : is a good writer, but not a great writer.  He got someone to publish him, in : my opinion, and the rest is history.   Steve Spinolio is a better writer, in : my book, than John Gierach, or Russell Chatham.   I didn’t know Spinolio had written anything beyond a post or two, one of which I have on my office wall.  Where can I find his writing?   To be a writer, one must write.  I battle with this everyday.  I suspect most do. At the very least, Gierach writes in large amount.  That’s something to be proud of.   — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Does Gierach still live in Lyons? I spent summers there (I’m an East Coast boy) in the early ’70’s and fished the St. Vrain top to bottom–my grandfather owned the trailer park in the big bend just outside of Lyons (next box up from the park.) I think I trespassed on his property a few times. Dave

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:I enjoy John Geirach at :least as much or more than E. Donnel Thomas, "Whitefish Can’t Jump", but :they are very much on the same, simple, short story format that does not :define great writers. You were doing just fine Moe until you said the above which caused me to laugh out loud. You can’t take those darn short stories seriously, you slay me sometimes… TC

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they are very much on the same, simple, short story format that does not define great writers.

I gotta wonder what Ernest Hemmingway woulda said about that. Big Two Hearted River for example, is far from simple. Ben

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: In my critical estimation, as a consumer of flyfishing books, John Gierach : is a good writer, but not a great writer.  He got someone to publish him, in : my opinion, and the rest is history.   Steve Spinolio is a better writer, in : my book, than John Gierach, or Russell Chatham.   I didn’t know Spinolio had written anything beyond a post or two, one of which I have on my office wall.  Where can I find his writing?  

Any idea when he is to return? Or if he will? Kiyu

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I actually met John Gierach in Lyons, Colorado at Mike Clarks shop  this last fall.  We stopped by the shop on our way to the Frying Pan.  John G.  was actually very pleasant and eventhough he didn’t have to stay and talk, he did. I haven’t read all the posts about him, but wanted to put in me 2 cents worth about my brief contact with him and how he seemed like a pretty decent guy, besides being a great writer!

If Geirach is really the guy he says he is in his writing, then he reallly doesn’t give a rat’s ass about all these postings about him, pro and con. If he logs on to defend himself, you may be assured he is a fraud. I predict with the former.  One problem I see here is that many insist on judging him as a flyfisherman, based on his writings. The only way you can judge him as a flyfisher, is to fly fish with him. As a reader, you must judge him as an outdoor writer, an entertainer, if you will. On that basis I find him well worth an evening in the easy chair. Since I haven’t fished with him, I can’t comment on the other. DAO DAO

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If Geirach is really the guy he says he is in his writing, then he reallly

doesn’t give a rat’s ass about all these postings about him, pro and con. If he logs on to defend himself, you may be assured he is a fraud. Funny you should bring that up, Dale. I was with John for an hour or so last week, and asked him if he was aware of the dialog about him on the internet. He just chuckled and said, "Yeah,  the guys told me about it. Sounds like those people are pissing away some good fishing time wrangling over nothing." … or words to that effect. He won’t be logging on. He doesn’t own a computer. As a reader, you must judge him as an outdoor writer, an entertainer, if you

will. On that basis I find him, well worth an evening in the easy chair.< Precisely.

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If you read past the subject line in these posts, you would have had no needto

defend him on those scores. Your right Moe, I was arguing apples and oranges here. My apologies.  He got someone to publish him, in

my opinion, and the rest is history. Right again, but he didn’t get just "anyone" to publish him. Pruett, Lyons, Simon & Shuster and Stackpole are hardly the kind of publishing houses to invest in ho-hum writers. <  Steve Spinolio is a better writer, inmy book, than John Gierach, or Russell Chatham … or E. Donnel Thomas I’m not familiar with Spinolio. Is he someone I should be reading. Know where I can find any of his stuff?, but they are very much on the same, simple, short story format that does not

define great writers.  I suspect you may open a real can of worms with that judgement, Moe. A sad truth is, IMO, the sale of books often has as much to do with the

publishers backing them and the level of gloss on the dust jacket as it does quality of content. Maybe, but again, big publishing houses aren’t likely to invest in writers whose work doesn’t sell. As for" quality of content", that’s a pretty subjective matter.   The number of sales define the number of awards… I’m not so sure that’s an accurate statement. Lyons didn’t publish Trout Bum, nor much of Gierach’s other works. And if I’m not mistaken, John won the Traver Award for a fictional piece that appeared in FR & R. nor do we have penis envy.

????Where’d that come from?   In Johns case, he has moments of really good stuff, but overall the stuff is repetitive, monotonous, politically correct and often boring.  To me, life offers more exciting fishing trips than John Gierach does in his writing.  So sue me. Actually, I’d rather go fishing with you, but If I were to sue-  and win – how much could I get? later DES

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To be a writer, one must write.  I battle with this everyday.  I suspect most

do. Amen to that. At the very least, Gierach writes in large amount.  That’s something to be

proud of. And to that one, as well. DES

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Much of Shakepeare’s work was "formulaic" and "Typical" yet in retrospect his work is viewed as "ground breaking".  Perhaps Gierach’s stuff needs the appreciation that only time and distance can impart to the nonappreciative and overly cautious segments of his audience.

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I find it humerous that all these straight laced flyfisherman find the time to criticize one of their own. I pose a question to any of you who find it within your right to criticize John at a personal or professional level:Have you ever had a conversation with the man? Do you know him and how he lives and his quality of life? I think that most critics would say NO to these questions. John is a very simple man. He’s a very acute journalist who has developed a style both in and out of the newspapers of his own. He is a fine flyfisherman and a generally nice guy to know. Most people who know him feel the same way. If one thing you can say of John, and I hope not to insult him with this comparison, but hes like the Senator from my state Jesse Helms. You may not always agree with him but you always know where he stands, he doesn’t teeter or waiver from his beliefs. A quality I believe to be a goal for most men. The other point is I believe that most flyfisherman, a strangely stoic bunch as it goes, are somewhat jealous of a man who can do what most of us want to do ALL the time instead of just some of the time, like most of us. So don’t wander down a road that you’re not familiar with, you may hit a tree or a parked car or Butch, the local dog who everybody in town knows would be sleeping in the road at 2:00pm on a tuesday. It might be hazardous. Jim Brady

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I was with you until you last paragraph. Literature, great and small, is open game to critics and it is wonderful for an author to have a defender. But, to think that people offer an descenting opinion because they are jealous of a guy who fishes for a living is absurd. By in large, my fly fishers are smarter and better read than that. It’s an opinion. Agree. Disagree. Who cares. I can speak to the issue with a decent amount of authority. I have been in the communications industry for 27-plus years and have only fly fished for half that time. Gierach is a fine writer. I have most of his books. But, I think we all can agree that he is not producing groundbreaking work here. His stuff is Day Berry In Waders, whihc is fine. Hell, Dave Berry won a Pulitzer. As much as I like Gierach, he gets, like anyone else who writes for pay alot, myself included, formulaic, and hence some of his stuff becomes "typical". Knowing where someone stands is not necessarily the greatest commendation one can make about literature. Read Mein Kampf and you know where that guy stood too! My view is simple, stuff like Gierach’s should entertain and inform. Period. I do not expect it to change my life or create a new vision for my life. I leave that to far better writers with something to say on the topic. But, as for whiling away an evening after slaving over a hot word processor all day, I’ll take Gierach any day of the week. Ask the man and I am sure he will tell you he is not out to change the world. He’;s a writer and damn few of us are good enough to change the world. But, if we any good at what we do, we can inform and entertain for a while, even a moment. So, lighten up! Besides, I think Gierach is a big boy and can defend himself nicely. Hollis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find it humerous that all these straight laced flyfisherman find the time to criticize one of their own. I pose a question to any of you who find it within your right to criticize John at a personal or professional level:Have you ever had a conversation with the man? Do you know him and how he lives and his quality of life? I think that most critics would say NO to these questions. John is a very simple man. He’s a very acute journalist who has developed a style both in and out of the newspapers of his own. He is a fine flyfisherman and a generally nice guy to know. Most people who know him feel the same way. If one thing you can say of John, and I hope not to insult him with this comparison, but hes like the Senator from my state Jesse Helms. You may not always agree with him but you always know where he stands, he doesn’t teeter or waiver from his beliefs. A quality I believe to be a goal for most men. The other point is I believe that most flyfisherman, a strangely stoic bunch as it goes, are somewhat jealous of a man who can do what most of us want to do ALL the time instead of just some of the time, like most of us. So don’t wander down a road that you’re not familiar with, you may hit a tree or a parked car or Butch, the local dog who everybody in town knows would be sleeping in the road at 2:00pm on a tuesday. It might be hazardous. Jim Brady

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Another follow-up on this thread… Just don’t read or buy the books he has written if you don’t like his writing.  As for me, I like a lot of what John has written. Most of his writing is non-technical, and therefore fine pleasure reading, if I’m into it. While Christmas cleaning btw, I perused through a lot of old Fly Fisherman and Rod and Reel Mags in my collection dating all the way back to the early eighties.  The writer in question (John) has been around for a long time, has "paid his dues," and in a professional sense is worthy of respect even if many people don’t like his work.  No need for debate or slander of the individual on a ng forum. Wayne Fenior Midland, MI – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was with you until you last paragraph. Literature, great and small, is open game to critics and it is wonderful for an author to have a defender. But, to think that people offer an descenting opinion because they are jealous of a guy who fishes for a living is absurd. By in large, my fly fishers are smarter and better read than that. It’s an opinion. Agree. Disagree. Who cares. I can speak to the issue with a decent amount of authority. I have been in the communications industry for 27-plus years and have only fly fished for half that time. Gierach is a fine writer. I have most of his books. But, I think we all can agree that he is not producing groundbreaking work here. His stuff is Day Berry In Waders, whihc is fine. Hell, Dave Berry won a Pulitzer. As much as I like Gierach, he gets, like anyone else who writes for pay alot, myself included, formulaic, and hence some of his stuff becomes "typical". Knowing where someone stands is not necessarily the greatest commendation one can make about literature. Read Mein Kampf and you know where that guy stood too! My view is simple, stuff like Gierach’s should entertain and inform. Period. I do not expect it to change my life or create a new vision for my life. I leave that to far better writers with something to say on the topic. But, as for whiling away an evening after slaving over a hot word processor all day, I’ll take Gierach any day of the week. Ask the man and I am sure he will tell you he is not out to change the world. He’;s a writer and damn few of us are good enough to change the world. But, if we any good at what we do, we can inform and entertain for a while, even a moment. So, lighten up! Besides, I think Gierach is a big boy and can defend himself nicely. Hollis

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Tim, I think if I could paraphrase your response–if you’re gonna set up shop as an icon (or let others set you up), you better expect some iconoclasts will come along. It goes with the job. I have to agree…good, not great. Trouble is, good writers don’t usually stay in print 50 years later. And in 100 years, no one remembers who the good writers were. That’s a tribute for great writers, and I don’t think we should start throwing that appelation around lightly. BTW–do you know where these straight-laced, stoic fishermen are. They’re not around here, that’s for damned sure! I don’t think I last an afternoon fishing with one of ‘em! Roger

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I find it humerous that all these straight laced flyfisherman find the time to criticize one of their own.

        (lots of stuff snipped) , but hes like the Senator from my state Jesse Helms. You may not always agree with him but you always know where he stands, he doesn’t teeter or waiver from his beliefs. A quality I believe to be a goal for most men.

        let me tell you, jack, that he is also my senior senator, a fact that renders me nauseous, but is presently unavoidable.  and if you think ol jesse wouldn’t sell every goddam inch of hazel creek to the highest bidder in the tree cuttin industry, then you are blind as a bat.  and having read gierach, i can’t believe he would accept such a comparison. The other point is I believe that most flyfisherman, a strangely stoic bunch as it goes, are somewhat jealous of a man who can do what most of us want to do ALL the time instead of just some of the time,

        how much the guy fishes has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of his prose.  which, imho, is very high.  but your apology for him, in the face of timbo’s protestations, is lamentable.         a. wayne harrison

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Much of Shakepeare’s work was "formulaic" and "Typical" yet in retrospect his work is viewed as "ground breaking".  Perhaps Gierach’s stuff needs the appreciation that only time and distance can impart to the nonappreciative and overly cautious segments of his audience.

Is it really you ?  I thought you were dead ? Comparing Gierach to Shakespeare ? Like the guy that painted a happy face on a dairy cows underside. Udderly Silly. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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I find it humerous that all these straight laced flyfisherman

I’ve spent enough time around this group the past couple of years to know that most of the laces don’t get any crookeder than the ones you’ll find round here. Nope…not a straight lace in the bunch (I say that with pride, so don’t anyone get offended). Roger

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Much of Shakepeare’s work was "formulaic" and "Typical" yet in retrospect his work is viewed as "ground breaking".  Perhaps Gierach’s stuff needs the appreciation that only time and distance can impart to the nonappreciative and overly cautious segments of his audience.

I would have to disagree on calling much of Shakespeare formulaic or typical. Sure, he may have used some common conventions and story lines adopted from other sources, but if you compare Shakespeare’s King Lear, for example, with contemporary version’s like Nahum Tate’s, Big Bill the Bard’s on a whole new plane. As for Geirach I don’t think the same can be said. I have read and enjoyed his work as light reading over my lunch hour. Or on a camping trip. Groundbreaking? Unconventional? Original? I don’t think so. There is very little that hasn’t been done before by others, and won’t be done again. It’s not even a terribly distinctive voice. This doesn’t make it unpleasant or without value. But I don’t think it’s the kind of stuff posterity is going to elevate into the canon of great works. If you went back 100-200 years and looked at the best selling books…other than the bible, you probably wouldn’t recogize many of them. The reason they were so popular was not that they were original, but rather that they perfectly mimicked the conventions of their day. They appealed to contemporary tastes. That…I think…is what Geirach does. He ain’t writing for the ages. Roger

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Seems to me that how nice a guy a person is, how authentic or otherwise attractive his lifestyle might ain’t got a lot to do with the quality of his writing, and thus the orig. poster just misses the point of some of Gierach’s detractors entirely. Hemmingway, for instance, does not seem to be the kind of guy one would enjoy spending lots of time with, and while through happy circumstances I can afford to fish as much as Gierach (or maybe even more), that don’t make me a writer.         That said, I think that most if not all of Gierach’s detractors miss a point too, and that is that almost no author I know of who has turned out more than just a book or two is able to maintain the same quality of prose over and over and over again. But even then, there are authors who write one great great work and then are either silent or write crap, and others who simply maintain a fairly high level consistently  throughout their careers.         For my money I suspect some of Gierach’s stuff

Question:

Hey kids. The steelhead are here, the steelhead are here. And we *finally* got a ffishing shop in this town!  I’m a happy guy. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.

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So… where is this new flyfishing shop that has finally come to the center of the universe, Moscow? Inquiring minds want to know. Is there somewhere else besides WallyWorld, Husky and Garts? Tim

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