Question:

Thanks very much to everyone for he responses. We’re now saturated with new information. :=) –David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re on  our way to Labador (from Houston) and would like to hear from anyone who has driven their rig in the Newfoundland area. Especially interested in the tricks of the route, such as ferry experience, RV campgrounds, diesel fuel availabililty, road conditions, URLs, and any quirks you can think of that the newcomer to that area should know. Rig is 33′ fiver and one-ton pickup. I’m a dejanews fan but Google has gobbled it. –David

Response:

Wallace McLean writes: Yes there is, from Blanc Sablon to St. Barbe.

Technically, you are correct; Blanc Sablon is in Quebec.  But there is only, what, 50 miles of road into Labrador.  It is very beautiful country.  My meaning was that there is no ferry from any place in Quebec you can travel to by car.  Last I knew, you can not drive to Blanc Sablon. Dave

Response:

When we took the ferry in 1984, my understanding was that the ferry ended in Blanc Sablon, only because it was therefor an inter provincial ferry, and consequently was eligible for Federal subsidies!  Of course, the fact that there were only about four miles of road before entering Labrador was conveniently overlooked, as that sort of thing usually is here in the states. Norm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wallace McLean writes: Yes there is, from Blanc Sablon to St. Barbe. Technically, you are correct; Blanc Sablon is in Quebec.  But there is only, what, 50 miles of road into Labrador.  It is very beautiful country.  My meaning was that there is no ferry from any place in Quebec you can travel to by car.  Last I knew, you can not drive to Blanc Sablon. Dave

Response:

Wallace McLean writes: Yes there is, from Blanc Sablon to St. Barbe. Technically, you are correct; Blanc Sablon is in Quebec.  But there is only, what, 50 miles of road into Labrador.  It is very beautiful country.  My meaning was that there is no ferry from any place in Quebec you can travel to by car.  Last I knew, you can not drive to Blanc Sablon.

You can, however, take another ferry to Blanc Sablon from teh Quebec highway network at Natashquan. — http://members.xoom.com/labradorian

Response:

Forgot to add: There is a ferry service twice a week from Lewisporte (NF) to Goose Bay, but it is a long trip and (I imagine) expensive.  It says "car", but nothing about RVs. If I was going to "do" New Foundland with an RV, I would do Nova Scotia first. It is much more interesting than Labrador.  Labrador does not have much from Baie Coumo to Lab City, and only Churchill Falls from Lab City to Goose Bay.  I am talking *nothing*.  But, Nova Scotia has much to do and see and would be less expensive.  Plus, ya don’t have to worry about gravel roads and lumber trucks.  <g  Go to the web site I’ve quoted or call the 1-800 number and they should be able to get a book to you before you leave.   Dave

Response:

We drove to Newfoundland (from the west coast of Canada) in the summer of 1999. We took the ferry from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia to Port Aux Basques, Newfoundland. We drove the 900 kilometres to St. John’s. Just outside St. John’s is Cape Spear which is the most easterly point in the continent. The ferry from Nova Scotia had no problem with even the largest of RVs. You’ll pay quite a bit for such a long load but considering the exchange on the US dollar, it probably won’t hurt that much. By the way, how can you pull a huge fifth wheel with a 1 ton truck? I had the idea that Newfoundland was just a big rock with fishing villages on the edge. Was I wrong! The interior of the province reminded me a lot of my own province BC. We camped at a site on a lake near Pasadena, just north of Cornerbrook, which could have been almost anywhere in BC. It was gorgeous. The people are wonderful. They are very friendly and helpful. The roads are not a problem at all. I can’t speak about the availability of diesel but there are certainly lots of trucks around so it must be relatively easy to find. Coming back we took the ferry from Argentia (about 100 kilometres southwest of St. John’s) back to Nova Scotia. This ferry runs only in the summer months (starts June 22 this year) and takes about 14 hours under normal circumstances. It saves having to backtrack the 900 kilometres to Port Aux Basques. When we went there was quite a wind so they took several hours removing chains from the vehicles on the car deck and then putting chains on our rigs. That turned the trip into almost 24 hours. Be sure to make reservations for the ferry. Check out the Marine Atlantic web site at http://www.marine-atlantic.ca We haven’t been to Labrador but I see there is a ferry service from Newfoundland to Labrador. Check out http://www.gov.nf.ca/ferryservices/ for the routes. There seems to be one that goes from St. Anthony but it looks like it doesn’t start until July 1 and it doesn’t seem to take vehicles. The other route seems to be from St. Barbe in Newfoundland and it starts May 1 and takes vehicles. The long option would be to come through Quebec of course. Have a wonderful trip. Allan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re on  our way to Labador (from Houston) and would like to hear from anyone who has driven their rig in the Newfoundland area. Especially interested in the tricks of the route, such as ferry experience, RV campgrounds, diesel fuel availabililty, road conditions, URLs, and any quirks you can think of that the newcomer to that area should know. Rig is 33′ fiver and one-ton pickup. I’m a dejanews fan but Google has gobbled it. –David

Response:

Hi Jay, I was wondering if your the average troll or just another attention whore, It seems to me judging from your responses to people asking legitmate questions that your more of an attention whore, So which is it? (Both maybe) Regards,  Boats

Response:

Hi Jay, I was wondering if your the average troll or just another attention whore, It seems to me judging from your responses to people asking legitmate questions that your more of an attention whore, So which is it? (Both maybe) Regards,  Boats

So – another WebTVer has all the answers!  NOT!! Tom J

Response:

In ‘84, we went across from North Sidney, NS to Port aux Basques, and on up the West coast of Newfoundland to At. Anthony.  While up in that area, we took the ferry from St. Barbe over to Blanc Sablon, QUE.  At that time the only road from there went about 50 miles up to Red Bay, and the first thirty was even paved!  We only spent one night (Pinware River) due to the huge number of black flies (in August).  At that time, there was a lot of archeological activity going on in Red Bay.  We had an F250 pickup with a tent trailer, and there was not problem at all on the ferries. Norm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re on  our way to Labador (from Houston) and would like to hear from anyone who has driven their rig in the Newfoundland area. Especially interested in the tricks of the route, such as ferry experience, RV campgrounds, diesel fuel availabililty, road conditions, URLs, and any quirks you can think of that the newcomer to that area should know. Rig is 33′ fiver and one-ton pickup. I’m a dejanews fan but Google has gobbled it. –David

Response:

Now Tom. If you really knew anything about us "webtvers" you would know we’re called "Webbies", but since your a newbie I guess we’ll let it slide, Good luck with yor new computer, Regards "Boats"

Response:

We went to Newfoundland in 1997 for three weeks.The island is large.It is about 500 miles across.You can see Labador when you are in the north end of the island.I would check it out but I am sure you can cross from there to Labrador by a ferry in that area.We had a great 3 weeks on the island and spent most of the time on the coast .I would say it as nice as BC coast with out the mountains. No problems finding a cg to stop for the night and the price was about 10 -25$ Most things cost more on the island but I would go again any time.The ferry cost me 450$ Canadian. This was for a return trip so that is why we stayed 3 weeks. I hope this helps some and have a good trip.. Lyle. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re on  our way to Labador (from Houston) and would like to hear from anyone who has driven their rig in the Newfoundland area. Especially interested in the tricks of the route, such as ferry experience, RV campgrounds, diesel fuel availabililty, road conditions, URLs, and any quirks you can think of that the newcomer to that area should know. Rig is 33′ fiver and one-ton pickup. I’m a dejanews fan but Google has gobbled it. –David

Response:

Rosemary Catherwood writes: You can see Labador when you are in the north end of the island.I would check it out but I am sure you can cross from there to Labrador by a ferry in that area.

What you see fron the northwest coast of New Foundland is indeed Labrador and Quebec.  A ferry runs from St. Barbe to Blanc Sabon, Quebec.  However, once there, you have only about 40 miles of road.  The ferry to Goose Bay, Labrador leaves Lewisporte, NF twice a week and is very expensive.  If it cost you $450 Canadian from Nova Scotia to NF, I should think the trip from Lewisporte to Labrador would be twice that – it is twice as far.  And, unlike New Fourndland, there is little to see/do in Labrador — except fish for big brook trout.  <g Dave

Response:

Now Tom. If you really knew anything about us "webtvers" you would know we’re called "Webbies", but since your a newbie I guess we’ll let it slide, Good luck with yor new computer,

Sonny boy, I have had a computer continuously since 1974.  How long have you been a WebTVer?  There are some great people using WebTV but there are a great many more horses rear ends – like you!! — Tom J http://www.geocities.com/aviontravelcade/ http://www.geocities.com/tomj_ga/ Are we having fun yet?

Response:

Hi Dave, This is a trip that we enjoyed very much from coast to coast and would go again even if it cost a lot to get there.But I said I would fly there next time from Ont Canada and rent a car and do B& B when in Newfoundland and see a lot of things we had missed the first time.You will find everyone there is very helpful. and I am sure you will have a good time. Please let us know when you return what you think of the trip after your visit to the island. PS one thing I will tell you that we did not know is that before you return to the main land they wash down your rig and you are not allowed any potatoes on the return trip.I do not know  to this day why? Have a good trip . Lyle in South Ont CA. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rosemary Catherwood writes: You can see Labador when you are in the north end of the island.I would check it out but I am sure you can cross from there to Labrador by a ferry in that area. What you see fron the northwest coast of New Foundland is indeed Labrador and Quebec.  A ferry runs from St. Barbe to Blanc Sabon, Quebec.  However, once there, you have only about 40 miles of road.  The ferry to Goose Bay, Labrador leaves Lewisporte, NF twice a week and is very expensive.  If it cost you $450 Canadian from Nova Scotia to NF, I should think the trip from Lewisporte to Labrador would be twice that – it is twice as far.  And, unlike New Fourndland, there is little to see/do in Labrador — except fish for big brook trout.  <g Dave

Response:

Rosemary Catherwood writes: Hi Dave, This is a trip that we enjoyed very much from coast to coast and would go again even if it cost a lot to get there.

(snip for brevity) Hi, Rosemary.  Actually I was answering someone else that had plans on making the trip.  I have been to NF and you are correct — it is a wonderful place to spend lots of time.  I have driven to Labrador from Quebec to Labrador City/Wabush for a float-plane flyout with my grandsons to fish for enormous brook trout.  There really is not much in Labrador, but NF is an entirely different story.  We are new to RVing, but I am planning on NF as a destination in the future.  Can’t beat the $ exchange rate either.  <g Dave Dave

Response:

Whoops, when I mentioned that it cost $450.00(Canadian) for the ferry trip between North Sydney,Nova Scotia, and Port au Basques,Newfoundland, I neglected to say that was the price of 2 passengers,in a 26 ft. motorhome,and that we sailed from Argentia,Newfoundland on the return trip.(twice the distance on the return trip) Lyle Catherwood – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re on  our way to Labador (from Houston) and would like to hear from anyone who has driven their rig in the Newfoundland area. Especially interested in the tricks of the route, such as ferry experience, RV campgrounds, diesel fuel availabililty, road conditions, URLs, and any quirks you can think of that the newcomer to that area should know. Rig is 33′ fiver and one-ton pickup. I’m a dejanews fan but Google has gobbled it. –David

Response:

In ‘84, we went across from North Sidney, NS to Port aux Basques, and on up the West coast of Newfoundland to At. Anthony.  While up in that area, we took the ferry from St. Barbe over to Blanc Sablon, QUE.  At that time the only road from there went about 50 miles up to Red Bay, and the first thirty was even paved!  We only spent one night (Pinware

It is paved all the way east to Red Bay, and all the way west to St. Paul’s River. From St. Paul’s River west is a gravel road under reconstruction to Old Fort Bay; NE of Red Bay the gravel highway continues to Mary’s Harbour (from where you can go to Battle Harbour National Historic District by boat), and will be extended as far as Cartwright within two years. River) due to the huge number of black flies (in August).  At that time, there was a lot of archeological activity going on in Red Bay.  We had an F250 pickup with a tent trailer, and there was not problem at all on the ferries.

– http://members.xoom.com/labradorian

Response:

We’re on  our way to Labador (from Houston) and would like to hear from anyone who has driven their rig in the Newfoundland area. Especially interested in the tricks of the route, such as ferry experience, RV campgrounds, diesel fuel availabililty, road conditions, URLs, and any quirks you can think of that the newcomer to that area should know. Rig is 33′ fiver and one-ton pickup. I’m a dejanews fan but Google has gobbled it. –David

Response:

Well, personally, I’ve had good luck with Labradors, indeed any retriever makes a fine pet.  They’re loyal, smart (for a dog), and good companions.  Newfoundlands I haven’t had any experience with, sorry. HTH Jay — * Jay Denebeim  Moderator       rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated *

Response:

Dave Ellis writes: We’re on  our way to Labador (from Houston) and would like to hear from anyone who has driven their rig in the Newfoundland area.

Uh, you are talking two different places.  Labrador is on the main land (north and east of Quebec), while New Foundland is an island off of the Lab coast. Labrador has one road leading in and out, and that is Rt380 from Baie Comeau to Lab City.  I would NOT recommend this route with an RV.  It is mostly gravel and the lumber trucks are very treacherous.   For info on New Foundland, e-mail addes: and phone number 1-800-563-NFLD You may find this helpful also: http://public.gov.nf.ca/tourism They will send you a nice book about the province.  Good luck. HTH.  d;0 Dave

Response:

I have friends who drove the road in Labrador with an RV. The entered from Quebec then took the Ferry over to Newfoundland Isle’s. They went with friends who had a fifth wheel. They had no problems with the gravel road. I’ve talked to their tourist bureau and they indicate that TT’s/RV’s should not have a problem. Al

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave Ellis writes: We’re on  our way to Labador (from Houston) and would like to hear from anyone who has driven their rig in the Newfoundland area. Uh, you are talking two different places.  Labrador is on the main land (north and east of Quebec), while New Foundland is an island off of the Lab coast. Labrador has one road leading in and out, and that is Rt380 from Baie Comeau to Lab City.  I would NOT recommend this route with an RV.  It is mostly gravel and the lumber trucks are very treacherous. For info on New Foundland, e-mail addes: and phone number 1-800-563-NFLD You may find this helpful also: http://public.gov.nf.ca/tourism They will send you a nice book about the province.  Good luck. HTH.  d;0 Dave

Response:

Al Rolle writes: I have friends who drove the road in Labrador with an RV. The entered from Quebec then took the Ferry over to Newfoundland Isle’s. They went with friends who had a fifth wheel. They had no problems with the gravel road. I’ve talked to their tourist bureau and they indicate that TT’s/RV’s should not have a problem. Al

There is only one road that leads into Labrador and that is Rt. 389 from Baie Comeau, Quebec.  Most of the road is gravel and you will constantly be traveling with or against lumber trucks that throw up big stones when they are in front of you or when they pass you.  I have driven it three times — I go fly fishing in Labrador every July.  Rt. 389 ends in Lab City/Wabush.  If you want to go farther, you use the trans-labrador highway (#500) which ends at Goose Bay/Happy Valley.  ALL of Rt 500 is gravel, and although picturesque, it is a rough drive.  Taking a ferry (actually it is  called the iceberg cruise) from Goose Bay to New Foundland (the island) would be very expensive.  There is no ferry from Quebec to New Foundland; all the ferries run from Nova Scotia. The reason there is no ferry service to/from Quebec is that there are no roads much past Sept Isles which is way the hell away from New Foundland. From the Tourist Bureau’s book: "Marine Atlantic’s modern car ferries also accommodate RVs all year round from North Syndney, Nova Scotia to Port Aux Basques in south western New Foundland. Throughout the summer, a second ferry sails from North Sydney to Argentia, bringing you to within an hour or two of St. Johns." Dave

Response:

want to go farther, you use the trans-labrador highway (#500) which ends at Goose Bay/Happy Valley.  ALL of Rt 500 is gravel, and although picturesque, it is a rough drive.  Taking a ferry (actually it is  called the iceberg cruise) from Goose Bay to New Foundland (the island) would be very expensive.  There is no ferry from Quebec to New Foundland; all the ferries run from Nova Scotia.

Yes there is, from Blanc Sablon to St. Barbe. The reason there is no ferry service to/from Quebec is that there are no roads much past Sept Isles which is way the hell away from New Foundland.

The road goes about 300km east of Sept-Iles to Natashquan, paved the whole way. From Natashquan there is a passenger/freighter to isolated ports as far as Blanc Sablon, on which you can ship certain sized vehicles (inc. campervans) as freight. — http://members.xoom.com/labradorian

Response:

Forgot to add: There is a ferry service twice a week from Lewisporte (NF) to Goose Bay, but it is a long trip and (I imagine) expensive.  It says "car", but nothing about RVs.

Yes, you can. All types of vehicles travel on this ferry. If I was going to "do" New Foundland with an RV, I would do Nova Scotia first.

Newfoundland is one word. It is much more interesting than Labrador.  Labrador does not have much from Baie Coumo to Lab City, and only Churchill Falls from Lab City to Goose Bay.  I am talking *nothing*.  But, Nova Scotia has much to do and see and would be

Depends on your definition of "nothing". There is plenty of great hiking, canoeing, etc. less expensive.  Plus, ya don’t have to worry about gravel roads and lumber trucks.  <g  Go to the web site I’ve quoted or call the 1-800 number and they should be able to get a book to you before you leave.   Dave

– http://members.xoom.com/labradorian

Response:

Rosemary Catherwood writes: You can see Labador when you are in the north end of the island.I would check it out but I am sure you can cross from there to Labrador by a ferry in that area. What you see fron the northwest coast of New Foundland is indeed Labrador and Quebec.  A ferry runs from St. Barbe to Blanc Sabon, Quebec.  However, once there, you have only about 40 miles of road.  The ferry to Goose Bay, Labrador

Actually, you have 80km west to Old Fort Bay on the Lower North Shore; 70km paved east to Red Bay, and another 80 or 90 gravel to Mary’s Harbour beyond that. leaves Lewisporte, NF twice a week and is very expensive.  If it cost you $450 Canadian from Nova Scotia to NF, I should think the trip from Lewisporte to Labrador would be twice that – it is twice as far.  And, unlike New Fourndland,

Here are the most recent fares for the Sir Robert Bond, which connects Lewisport Nfld with Cartwright and Goose Bay, Labrador:  http://www.gov.nf.ca/ferryservices/schedules/E-bond.htm there is little to see/do in Labrador — except fish for big brook trout.  <g

Depends on your definition of "little". If you have done "little" research, and have "little" energy, imagination, or interests, you will find little to do in Labrador. You’ll find the same thing in New York or Paris. — http://members.xoom.com/labradorian

Response:

Question:

I guess it takes seven canoes AND a kayak after all. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, but your average canoeist gets in the boat and immediately thinks of how to improve the bathtub.  A kayaker, on the other hand, gets in and paddles off, secure in the knowledge that a kayak is just the bestest boat possible. Then why do I so many more extreme variations of kayaks than canoes? Economix? There are, conservatively estimating, 3 billion members of the potential kayak-buying public worldwide. There are about 150 canoeists. So any market fragmentation is much more likely with kayaks. Also: ease of use. Lettuce face it: it’s a Lott easier to roll a kayak than an open canoe. Size does matter, and it’s not always a good thang. This is a natural limitation on the OC Rodeo idea: only the true crazies consider buying rodeo OC-1’s. I’ve seen one on the river that I can remember: a Savage OC on the Tallulah Gorge. Rare have I seen a boat sans rider more often. Entrance, Oceana, Bridal Veil…literally everytime I turned around, that guy was swimming away from his boat! I’m soooo grateful to him for providing so much amusement for the Tallulah crowd that day. Riviera Ratt, # 77, Charter member of PFA 4/14/99 Still Rattless in ‘99!!! Click of the week updated 8/8/99 for a good time, call http://members.aol.com/RivierRatt/ratthole.html Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

<snip That one best all round canoe, then I met a guy I hadn’t seen in a couple of years, didn’t even know he paddled but was a fly fisherman ( so am I). In our conversation he stated that he owned seven canoes. < David Grabowski

Well, the guy’s a flyfisherman.  He probably has a dozen rods too, and probably 2 or three reels for each rod.  And 2 or three vests. Myself, I use my 8.5′ 5 wt. rod for everything, don’t have a vest, and paddle my Wenonah Solo+ everywhere I need to go.  But I have 5 PCs… –Stan

Response:

[a nice description which could do nothing but damage my case, so I quickly deleted it] Yeah, but your average canoeist gets in the boat and immediately thinks of how to improve the bathtub.  A kayaker, on the other hand, gets in and paddles off, secure in the knowledge that a kayak is just the bestest boat possible.

It’s ok though, you guys know where I’m coming from on my discription, fly fishermen, canoe paddlers or kayakers have all seen what I describe at one time or another ! If not , they will if they stick with it long enough. Excitement is great, boat design is great but none of it can beat out old mother nature, to me the canoe is the vehicle to experience it with. One day I might just slip my rickety bones into one of the *other* paddlers choices . Grabowski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                   I have not yet begun to cry over spilt milk

Response:

Yeah, but your average canoeist gets in the boat and immediately thinks of how to improve the bathtub.  A kayaker, on the other hand, gets in and paddles off, secure in the knowledge that a kayak is just the bestest boat possible.

Then why do I so many more extreme variations of kayaks than canoes? — Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://madcanoeist.4ever.cc

Response:

Yeah, but your average canoeist gets in the boat and immediately thinks of how to improve the bathtub.  A kayaker, on the other hand, gets in and paddles off, secure in the knowledge that a kayak is just the bestest boat possible. Then why do I so many more extreme variations of kayaks than canoes?

Economix? There are, conservatively estimating, 3 billion members of the potential kayak-buying public worldwide. There are about 150 canoeists. So any market fragmentation is much more likely with kayaks. Also: ease of use. Lettuce face it: it’s a Lott easier to roll a kayak than an open canoe. Size does matter, and it’s not always a good thang. This is a natural limitation on the OC Rodeo idea: only the true crazies consider buying rodeo OC-1’s. I’ve seen one on the river that I can remember: a Savage OC on the Tallulah Gorge. Rare have I seen a boat sans rider more often. Entrance, Oceana, Bridal Veil…literally everytime I turned around, that guy was swimming away from his boat! I’m soooo grateful to him for providing so much amusement for the Tallulah crowd that day. Riviera Ratt, # 77, Charter member of PFA 4/14/99 Still Rattless in ‘99!!! Click of the week updated 8/8/99 for a good time, call http://members.aol.com/RivierRatt/ratthole.html Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

A kayaker, on the other hand, gets in and paddles off, secure in the knowledge that a kayak is just the bestest boat

possible. Yes Galen… You are soooooo right! That’s why I see only *ONE* kind of kayak sold for *ALL* types of water… As a troll, this was not up to your usual standards…   jm — Sometimes, if you stand on the bottom rail of a bridge and lean over to watch the river slipping slowly away beneath you, you will suddenly know everything there is to be known.                    - A.A. Milne Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

You need a variable geometry canoe.

If the material were flexible enough, you could use wire rope to put tension around the top edge;  this would have a tendency to pull the opening into a more circular shape (wider) and pull the ends up (more rocker). Curt

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Actually, I’ve given some thought to how you could build one, for a particular novelty race that has one turn, although it’s very sharp. What I’ve got in mind isn’t technically a canoe, but more of a sit on top kayak built out of construction foam, hinged at the center so the rocker can be changed from flat to extreme by throwing a lever, then throwing it back when the turn is completed. It might even work.

See what I mean about canoes?  You can’t even dream about ‘em effectively.                    I have not yet begun to cry over spilt milk

Response:

Actually, I’ve given some thought to how you could build one, for a particular novelty race that has one turn, although it’s very sharp. What I’ve got in mind isn’t technically a canoe, but more of a sit on top kayak built out of construction foam, hinged at the center so the rocker can be changed from flat to extreme by throwing a lever, then throwing it back when the turn is completed. It might even work. See what I mean about canoes?  You can’t even dream about ‘em effectively.

No, but canoes have made many of my dreams come true through the years! To sit on the calm waters of the north woods at near sunset, the mystical glow of the setting sun reflecting on the water, the sound of the loons bouncing off the hills and the sight of a long fly line settling itself on the water are dreams come true to me. Same for setting out on a favorite stretch of river or gliding into an eddy , gracefully turning up stream or to shore to set up camp, great stuff ! How about the morning dew or even frost outside at daybreak, heavy fog lifting off the river, the sound of the rushing water, the canoe sitting ready? David Grabowski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                   I have not yet begun to cry over spilt milk

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[a nice description which could do nothing but damage my case, so I quickly deleted it] Yeah, but your average canoeist gets in the boat and immediately thinks of how to improve the bathtub.  A kayaker, on the other hand, gets in and paddles off, secure in the knowledge that a kayak is just the bestest boat possible.                    I have not yet begun to cry over spilt milk

Response:

You’re title says it all — you’re right.

Response:

Anyone been in the perfect all round canoe, that one that ends all thoughts of if it were more nimble, or less cumbersome, tracked better but still turned in moving water or packed out more, solos better and so on? I just had to inquire, I realize this is idiotic !

You need a variable geometry canoe.  Push a button & it goes from long & narrow with a little rocker to short & wide with plenty of rocker. — Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://madcanoeist.4ever.cc

Response:

Anyone been in the perfect all round canoe, that one that ends all thoughts of if it were more nimble, or less cumbersome, tracked better but still turned in moving water or packed out more, solos better and so on? I just had to inquire, I realize this is idiotic ! You need a variable geometry canoe.  Push a button & it goes from long & narrow with a little rocker to short & wide with plenty of rocker.

I’ll start working on the plans tommorrow! Grabowski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://madcanoeist.4ever.cc

Response:

You need a variable geometry canoe.  Push a button & it goes from long & narrow with a little rocker to short & wide with plenty of rocker.

Actually, I’ve given some thought to how you could build one, for a particular novelty race that has one turn, although it’s very sharp. What I’ve got in mind isn’t technically a canoe, but more of a sit on top kayak built out of construction foam, hinged at the center so the rocker can be changed from flat to extreme by throwing a lever, then throwing it back when the turn is completed. It might even work. — Wes

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My Ally Pak is a bit like this.  It’s flexible enough to respond to the way it’s loaded.  When in whitewater and big waves, I load it tight to center and it has nice rocker for turning and going up over breakers.  When I’m running flatwater, I load it more evenly and it tracks well. Brad "Alaska isn’t the Last Frontier – It’s the Last Bite on the plate." Ed Abbey

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You need a variable geometry canoe.  Push a button & it goes from long & narrow with a little rocker to short & wide with plenty of rocker. Actually, I’ve given some thought to how you could build one, for a particular novelty race that has one turn, although it’s very sharp. What I’ve got in mind isn’t technically a canoe, but more of a sit on top kayak built out of construction foam, hinged at the center so the rocker can be changed from flat to extreme by throwing a lever, then throwing it back when the turn is completed. It might even work.

Or you hinge it sideways so that it naturally turns in circles. — Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://madcanoeist.4ever.cc

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You need a variable geometry canoe.  Push a button & it goes from long & narrow with a little rocker to short & wide with plenty of rocker. Actually, I’ve given some thought to how you could build one, for a particular novelty race that has one turn, although it’s very sharp. What I’ve got in mind isn’t technically a canoe, but more of a sit on top kayak built out of construction foam, hinged at the center so the rocker can be changed from flat to extreme by throwing a lever, then throwing it back when the turn is completed. It might even work. Or you hinge it sideways so that it naturally turns in circles.

We have an insulation company locally, I don’t need to design much of anything, I ‘ll  have them blow foam insulation into my Camper until it’s full, mold a depression in it at the same time to sit in and then cut it in half. I think there is some light weight stainlesss tubing in my garage to make a lever from, the hardware store must have cable or rod to make actuation links from. The foam may stop the oil canning at the same time ! I should deck this thing, what to use for that, maybe plastic dip? Grabowski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://madcanoeist.4ever.cc

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 I’ve had it, for years Iv’e been trying to decide what the perfect canoe is. That one best all round canoe, then I met a guy I hadn’t seen in a couple of years, didn’t even know he paddled but was a fly fisherman ( so am I). In our conversation he stated that he owned seven canoes. Now that must be the answer, because I havn’t been in the perfect all round boat yet, though I do like my OT Camper( could glide better or not oilcan) and really liked a MR Explorer I used once( was too heavy in Royalex for portage). Also liked the Grumman 17 ft.canoe I used years ago ( clang bang for fishing, dented and stuck to rocks, paddled good ). Anyone been in the perfect all round canoe, that one that ends all thoughts of if it were more nimble, or less cumbersome, tracked better but still turned in moving water or packed out more, solos better and so on? I just had to inquire, I realize this is idiotic ! David Grabowski

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Question:

Slainte ! MC

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If you had to list ten flies to fish Western North Carolina streams year round, what would you take- elk hair caddis(tan); royal wulff; female adams; kauffman’s royal stimulator; royal trude; parachute blue-winged olive; letort hopper; prince nymph; squirrel tail nymph; montana nymph; pheasant tail nymph. wayno

If I remember correctly (and it’s tough) PJ only used two.  A royal coachman and any old nymph as a dropper.   Makes life simple. Peter

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BTW, I’ll do my best to raise a glass to your health this weekend when some roffizen probates are in town….hell, I’ll do my best to raise a glass to each and every roffizen –waldo…takin’ liver pills

thank you sir.  I’ll toast you as well from the far fields of PA. Mark Faulkner

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If you had to list ten flies to fish Western North Carolina streams year round, what would you take-

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If you had to list ten flies to fish Western North Carolina streams year round, what would you take-

elk hair caddis(tan); royal wulff; female adams; kauffman’s royal stimulator; royal trude; parachute blue-winged olive; letort hopper; prince nymph; squirrel tail nymph; montana nymph; pheasant tail nymph. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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No Lt. Cahill, hare’s ear or terrestrials? Can you explain your selection understanding ten is a short number. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you had to list ten flies to fish Western North Carolina streams year round, what would you take- elk hair caddis(tan); royal wulff; female adams; kauffman’s royal stimulator; royal trude; parachute blue-winged olive; letort hopper; prince nymph; squirrel tail nymph; montana nymph; pheasant tail nymph. wayno

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No Lt. Cahill, hare’s ear or terrestrials? Can you explain your selection understanding ten is a short number.

    fly selection is darwinian. wayno

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If you had to list ten flies elk hair caddis(tan); royal wulff; female adams; kauffman’s royal stimulator; royal trude; parachute blue-winged olive; letort hopper; prince nymph; squirrel tail nymph; montana nymph; pheasant tail nymph.

Wayno, quit usin’ your toes to count to ten. That extra one down on the end gets you in trouble every time. A most excellent list, but some would make room in the top 10 for a yellow humpy. — Ken Fortenberry

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Who? Darwin? You gonna’ listen to your friends or to the trout? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No Lt. Cahill, hare’s ear or terrestrials? Can you explain your selection understanding ten is a short number.     fly selection is darwinian. wayno

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If you had to list ten flies to fish Western North Carolina streams year round, what would you take-

An experts

Question:

Really nice fly shop in Schroon Lake. Friendly, helpful shopkeeper. Adirondacks is God’s country. One warning, get repellent… the blackflies are big and hungry. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am planning a trip to New York’s Adirondacks this July and wonder if anyone had info on fishing in the area.  I have never been there but understand there are tons of rivers.  I’ll be in the Old Forge area near the Moose River (just west of Raquette Lake).  Any info on fly shops, public access to rivers and the hatches I might expect to see in late July would be appreciated. Thanks. Steve

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I am planning a trip to New York’s Adirondacks this July and wonder if anyone had info on fishing in the area.  I have never been there but understand there are tons of rivers.  I’ll be in the Old Forge area near the Moose River (just west of Raquette Lake).  Any info on fly shops, public access to rivers and the hatches I might expect to see in late July would be appreciated. Thanks. Steve

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Question:

Ken, Go to Mariott’s in Fullerton, on Orangethorpe, and have them brief you on Bear Creek. I lived in Anaheim two years ago and fished there a number of times after being briefed.  It was the only place I found where you could be away from the crowds of Southern CA and catch some good fish in some beautiful surroundings. Small browns, 10 to 12 inches, in a small stream setting.  I used a 3 wt outfit and had a ball.  Elk hair caddis flies were the ticket then. Good luck! Tom

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Ken, The stream that drains the lake at Big Bear has trout in it, but it is a rough one to fish.  It is nothing like Hot Creek.   — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO http://users.ccnet.com/~emh FOR ECONOMY WADING BOOTS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Hi All:          Does anyone know if there are any stream’s or creek’s that can be fished near Arrowhead or Bigbear? I live in SO CAL and just started fly fishing this April when I went to Bishop for opening day.Boy am I hooked I had a great time at Hot Creek! Anyway I want to find a place local to fish and learn more. Any advice?                        Thanks                                  Ken

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 Hi All:          Does anyone know if there are any stream’s or creek’s that can be fished near Arrowhead or Bigbear? I live in SO CAL and just started fly fishing this April when I went to Bishop for opening day.Boy am I hooked I had a great time at Hot Creek! Anyway I want to find a place local to fish and learn more. Any advice?                        Thanks                                  Ken

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Question:

My step-dad and I are going to Weaverville on Saturday for some steelhead fishing.  Any advice from recent visitors?  Lures, places, approaches? Thanks in advance.  Dave in Anderson, CA

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This is probably late advice, but I’d stay home.   The river is muddy and fishing is slow. Instead of the Trinity, I’d go over to Lewiston Lake and flyfish that area.  Or…take a drive over to the Smith River as it’s still clear enough to fish and, I understand, that the salmon and steelhead are being cooperative.  Four good updated info on the Trinity, I’d call the Eureka Fly Shop at 444-2000 or the Redding Fly Shop (I don’t have their number). Barry Brown – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My step-dad and I are going to Weaverville on Saturday for some steelhead fishing.  Any advice from recent visitors?  Lures, places, approaches? Thanks in advance.  Dave in Anderson, CA

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [some deleted] The gist was that FFF is in serious money trouble.  He didn’t give any details, so I don’t know how it happened, who is/are responsible, or what is being done to correct the situation, but one thing the organization is doing is raising annual dues to $29.00 to counter a dramatic decrease in membership. Greetings Granite. What on earth could the FFF done that would result in a *dramatic decrease* in membership ? "Hmmm….", he ponders deeply. Very interesting indeed. Is "the new flyfishing craze that is sweeping America" ebbing ? One can only hope. TimW

Amen to that.  I’m ready to pounce on all that barely used second-hand gear that will undoubtedly flood the classifieds if such an ebb occurs. Brett

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Here is a forwarded response for wondering readers: To: Dave Richards Dave: A copy of your note about the Federation’s troubles was forwarded to me tonight, and I thought your questions deserved an answer. The simple answers are: — Yes, the Federation has financial problems. Who doesn’t? — Yes, membership is down. But that can be remedied. — No, we’re not even close to shutting down. Frankly, I see too many opportunities to even think about closing shop. I stepped in as president in August, not because I have any wish to preside over the Federation’s demise, but because there are so many things I want to do. And I intend to be quite aggressive in doing them. A few examples: — The FFF Clubwire. Quite an innovative news service intended to help club and council newsletter editors, who in the past have had to beg, borrow, steal material to fill their pages. Now, they have routine access to information from the Federation about education activities, conservation issues, Federation news and fly-fishing in general. This free service is available by E-mail to every FFF chapter and has been getting enthusiastic response since its introduction this past summer. — The Flyfisher is being redesigned to deliver a more-targeted message to our members. You’ll see the first changes in this upcoming issue. — You mentioned the upcoming increase in dues, but you’ve been given misleading information about the reason. I asked the board of directors in August to approve the increase, not to bail out our finances, but to allow the national office to begin paying money back to the councils. Simply put, national will rebate $5 back to the councils for every member they add as off Aug. 1, 1996. I don’t deny that I hope such a program will inspire the councils to work harder to generate more members, but the reasons go beyond that. The councils carry a great deal of responsibility and do a lot of the Federation’s work, and it’s about time they started getting some financial support from national. — In the past year or so, we’ve distributed something like $20,000-$25,000 in free rods and lines for clubs to use in their education programs. Perhaps you’re more interested in conservation matters. If so, it’s that much more important to keep the Federation around. We were instrumental in having the National Marine Fisheries Service invoke the Endangered Species Act in protecting West Coast steelhead this year; we sponsored the first symposium ever on saving searun cutthroat trout; we have been active in banning gill nets along the Gulf of Mexico; we joined a coalition to get the Magnuson Act reauthorized by Congress; we are sponsors of next year’s Wild Trout symposium; we are the experts on the relicensing of hydro dams and have been especially effective with this issue in the Great Lakes area; and we were an important voice in opposing the New World Mine adjacent to Yellowstone Park. And in a couple weeks, we’re hosting the only public forum (via our newly opened International Fly Fishing Center) designed to explain what’s going on with the damaged spring creeks near Livingston, Mont. We won’t take sides in this difficult situation, but we think it’s important that everyone have the chance to hear all the arguments. Please accept my apologies if I’m pummeling you with stuff. But I’m at work, it’s late and I’m trying to go home. If you still need answers, let me know. I’m happy to give them. In the meantime, let me assure you that the problems we face can and will be handled, and you’re going to see a much more active Federation than you might have otherwise expected. And pardon me if I revert to one of my favorite Mark Twain quotes: The news of our death is much exaggerated. Regards, Tom Jindra

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I received a fairly disturbing communique recently from the head of the local chapter of the Federation of Fly Fishers.  I’m not sure when it arrived since I was out of town for a couple of weeks.  It could be old news, although I doubt it. The gist was that FFF is in serious money trouble.  He didn’t give any details, so I don’t know how it happened, who is/are responsible, or what is being done to correct the situation, but one thing the organization is doing is raising annual dues to $29.00 to counter a dramatic decrease in membership. I’m also a member of another national orgainzation unrelated to fly fishing that has undergone a similar near-disaster and has recovered.  In that case the financial disaster was directly related to bad advice from a tax attorney and fiscal incompetence on the part of the yahoos running the show.  It seems likely that something similar has tripped up FFF. I’m not interested in pointing fingers, except to say that the people responsible for mismanagement need to be put someplace where they can do no further harm and replaced with others who have a bit more savvy.  Then there is also the question of whether the organization can or even should be saved. Are there any FFF members out there with more info?  Please email me directly. Dave Richards

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[some deleted] The gist was that FFF is in serious money trouble.  He didn’t give any details, so I don’t know how it happened, who is/are responsible, or what is being done to correct the situation, but one thing the organization is doing is raising annual dues to $29.00 to counter a dramatic decrease in membership.

Greetings Granite. What on earth could the FFF done that would result in a *dramatic decrease* in membership ? "Hmmm….", he ponders deeply. Very interesting indeed. Is "the new flyfishing craze that is sweeping America" ebbing ?   One can only hope. TimW

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: The gist was that FFF is in serious money trouble.  He didn’t give any : details, so I don’t know how it happened, who is/are responsible, or what : is being done to correct the situation, but one thing the organization is : doing is raising annual dues to $29.00 to counter a dramatic decrease in : membership. Taxes? : I’m also a member of another national orgainzation unrelated to fly : fishing that has undergone a similar near-disaster and has recovered.  In : that case the financial disaster was directly related to bad advice from : a tax attorney and fiscal incompetence on the part of the yahoos running : the show.  It seems likely that something similar has tripped up FFF. Mmmmm, attorney-types, financial institutions, fiscal incompetence, and "yahoos" running the show. : I’m not interested in pointing fingers, except to say that the people : responsible for mismanagement need to be put someplace where they can do : no further harm and replaced with others who have a bit more savvy.  Then : there is also the question of whether the organization can or even should : be saved. I think ‘Merica is worth saving! : Are there any FFF members out there with more info?  Please email me : directly. : Dave Richards Not to muddy up Dave’s request for info, but reading his post looks like a study in current politics. It REALLY stood out. You’re on to something Dave. Remove all the incompetent leeches and start over. Bill You’re either for Perot-type changes or YOU are the problem.

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Question:

I related in an earlier post that I have a pair of Simms micro-fiber that I got in January and that I’m happy with them so far but – - – -I picked up a copy of the April issue of Fly Rod and Reel magazine today.  This issue includes an article about "breathable" waders in which the author describes his experiences with field testing six pairs of new waders.  The one big problem that he found with them was a tendency to develop pinhole leaks.  One pair leaked "out of the box".  A couple of more developed leaks within 20-30 hours of use.  The "best" pair developed the first leak after about 100 hours of use.   None of the leaks were in the seams.  All were due to punctures of the fabric and membrane. I’ve worn mine on about five or six trips this year with no problems but I’m extremely careful around briars and the like. Johnny

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That’s all very learned, and persuasive, but what about the perhaps majority of times when one is not actually in water up to one’s cheeks — tummy-crawling up to a choice pool, hiking the mile along the old rail bed to the next less people-populated stretch, and so on?  That’s when I find the added weight (of alternative materials) and the moisture-inside problem most irritating.  So, I’ll set up a different kind of question: does the transpiration leave the sweat-salt behind (I assume it does), and if so is this a Good Thing?

Dan, I doubt there is a clear answer. However, it is unlikely that the salt and oils from the sweat traverse the Goretex effectively since they would not be transported on water vapor molecules. If there is any transport would relate to the pore size in the fabric and the size of the salt or oil molecules or aggregates. Over time they probably build up if not contained in the liner clothing underneath the Gortex and impair the water vapor exchange by clogging the holes. This may relate to the previous post suggesting to keep it clean. Gortex, in theory, is a perfect breathable fabric. In real life, my experience has been that it is less than perfect but does offer some advantages because of its breathability. I think if you were to push any of the underlying conditions to extremes then the Goretex would not perform. For example, when skiing very hard and generating mass quantities of sweat in extremely cold weather a layer of ice will form inside my Gortex jacket. Presumably the water vapor hit the temperature gradient at the inside surface of the jacket, condensed and froze. Another example would be excessive perspiration under generally average conditions. The exchange of water vapor through the fabric is through diffusion. As long as the water vapor concentration is lower outside then exchange will occur (I doubt it would work in a steam bath). This exchange is rate limited by the number and size of the pores. If your sweat-water vapor production exceeds this maximum rate for vapor transpiration it will get very humid inside the waders. Water will then condense depending on the temperature (this interaction between humidity and temperature is called the dew point; ie. the temp. at which condensate forms for a given air water content.  Thus, the intensity of exercise, the persons propensity to perspire and the temperature of the environment are all factors in your ultimate comfort. In addition, walking may help move air in and out of the top of the waders helping the loss of water vapor considerably but may be offset by the increased exercise. You did not mention if you were belly crawling through thick brush or mud. Also the level of excitement based on how "choice" the pool is may be a factor. Certainly this would alter the equation. Similarly falling in the river would require sophisticated mathematical modeling to reach an answer and would depend on the initial condition assumptions. For instance was the fall a "melt down" and was the person able to keep the flyrod arm above water or was it a head first plunge (probably would require invoking chaos theory here) and did he/she have to swim the next rapid downstream? A long fishless winter seems to lead to considering these imponderables. I am off to Telluride for a science meeting and to telemark ski, I’ll think more on this on the lifts. Best regards. Jon

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Besides the cost, is there any downside to gore-tex (breathable) waders? First, ask yourself what Gore-Tex does.  It is a semi-permiable teflon membrane, too small to let water pass, but will allow water vapor to. As far as breathability, Gore-Tex will NOT push warm water vapor from YOU into the water in which you are standing.  Thermodynamically, this is prohibitive.  (Think about it: nature loves and goes to disorder. Forcing your sweat vapor out of a mixture of air and into an environment already full of water will not happen.  Never in the history of the universe has this Spontaneously happend)  Gore-tex will allow your waders to dry from the inside and out, however in a short amount of time.  This means no more clammy feet from yesterday’s wading.  Also, if the Gore-tex is to fuction in a breathable mode, it must be the sole water barrier.  Any other barrier would retard air flow and make Gore-Tex useless.  If your membrane is damaged in some way, it will be much harder to repair.  Thank-you. That is all. Jason Beary

I dont want to argue with thermo dynamics, but I think that you are dead wrong. I have used Gore-Tex a lot riding motor cycles in _heavy_ rain ( we have loads of that during a typical Swedish summer and it really keeps the water out and lets the sweat evaporate. I can asure you that during these conditions you will normally get soaking wet just as fast as if you took a bath with your clothes on. I really can’t understand your reasoning either. It would be valid for a system without a membrane, but the membrane does just what you say: lets water molecules pass and keeps water in liquid form out. This is due to the surface tension of the water. The water on the outside will have a lower temperature than the the fisher on the inside of the membrane and this is the key to why there will be more molecules going out through the membrane than in. This leads to two things: 1) Don’t take away the water tension. You may do this by letting the Gore-Tex get dirty. So keep your waders clean. 1) Don’t wade in water warmer than your skin temperature ( ~28 C ) using Gore-Tex waders. /KK  Kjell K Kernen – More or less sane.

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Besides the cost, is there any downside to gore-tex (breathable) waders? I assume that the degree of insulation required can be regulated by the clothes worn underneath. Is this reasonable? Thanks

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Hi Jerry-    I hate to sound so cut and dry, but you are dead wrong. Not only does GoreTex breath underwater, it does it very well. Water logged polypro thermal underwear will dry out while wading in waist deep water under GoreTex waders. That is a lot of water for your body to vaporize and for your waders to dispell, but GoreTex waders do it. From first hand, real life (repeated) experience I can state this as a fact.    I would urge you to get out from under your book learned "facts" and test your theories under real conditions before making such pronouncements to the world. It would be a shame if someone read your words and made a fishing decision based on your "information".    Tight lines, Ralph Ralph Cutter, California School of Flyfishing. http://www.flyline.com

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Question:

Am going to a conference near Salida, CO.  Does anyone have some good recommendations for fishing the Arkansas? Access points. Fly selections. Current river conditions. Thanks for the help!

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My son and I fished the Arkansas regularly for years.  We were just by there in late August.  The river was still very high and just about unfishable.  With the heavy late runoff and daily thunderstorms the Twin Lakes Resevoirs needed daily relief.  However we did manage to take about 6 in the 30 min we stopped (just along the shore line).  There are 4 flies that seemed to work well.  Olive Elk Hair Caddis (EHC), Brown Stonefly Nymphs, Renegade, and sometimes a Muddler.  The best way to fish this river (almost exclusively browns) is to wade down the middle and fish both banks.  The browns are frequently right up against the shore line in 4-6 inches of water.  Also fish the riffles.  I’m sure at this time of year they mistake the EHCs for hoppers.  The stoneflys should be fished into the shoreline and allow the current to pull them away.  They will chase them.  In very early October I had a 30 fish morning using renegades fished wet (just below the surface in the seams between fast and slow water).  The "Public Lands" designation as indicated by some new signs appears to extend from just outside of town down to the bridge at Wellsville.  This was private and you should verify it.  This is special regulaltion water (flies and lures only, 2 fish per day, 16 inch minimum.) Good luck, If the water flow is 750cfs or less it should be great. Bill A.

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