Question:

JB said..   Speaking of which, I’d be interested in any observations you might   care to share on inverted spin recovery.  JB Long time since I’ve been spinning in anything other than a car Paul. Thank god for that (given what you "drive" nowdays…) Take out an "l" for email reply

Response:

It took a lot of practice, and I seem to remember some pretty awful results, but I eventually got it down. In the end I decided not to use it in the display, as the only people who would appreciate it were other pilots (and most would simply be glad they weren’t in the aircraft with me). I could only do it in one direction too. Going the other way, the inverted fuel tank would run out of gas before I could make it past roughly 270

Question:

. Cheap rod a child can use I should have mentioned, this is for a 2 year old. Rick

Depends on fishing habits and conditions. Your normal habits will of course have to change, mainly taking turns while the "sitter" of the moment explores nature, a little splashing, turning over rocks, touching moss-bark-worms-mud etc. a chest pak carrier (with the child facing forward) provides security, restraint, and mobility.  Of course the child will not remember it later but you will, as a most wondrous phase in your lives. I can tell you that as the family grows your fishing habits will continue change culminating with a trip with the grand children. Maybe if you are as lucky as me, Great grand children and the realization of how blessed your life has been and what fun fishing buddies you have.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Find another couple with the same problem. Their passion doesn’t have to be fishing, could be golf, tennis, whatever.  The couples take turns looking after the other’s child.  Since the visiting child gets to play with a new playmate and toys, interest should not be a problem. Peter Damn!  I hate it when people give sound and thoughtful advice. Opie  –Planning for the Past– Really.  I was waiting for some wag to suggest giving the kid a box of treble hooks the night before and then letting the doctors and your HMO take care of it from there, or something in equally poor taste…<G. Seriously, I liked the idea of taking the child, but the parents taking turns fishing.  Heck, by three or four, I was fishing – not quite with a fly yet, and not quite catching much (I’m not sure if I even had a complete hook – hey, if it’s not dynamite or electricity, it’s called _fishing_, not catching), but it taught me patience, etc. If that’s not practical, Peter’s idea seems pretty decent – maybe even find another couple in similar position (or even better, one non-fisher) and three can fish while one watches the kiddos. TC, R

BRAGGING RIGHTS::: At four my great grandson caught his first trophy large mouth, "gramps" cast,(we hadn’t known he was a lefty then) and lipped it. He did the rest. 21.5" of galloping bass, I’m surprised you didn’t hear me whooping.

Response:

Will send you a video one day just to prove it )

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Admittedly I would never take my kids fishing they are obnoxious and annoying. LOL.  This is one of the funniest lines I’ve read on ROFF (I hope you intended it that way) and a sure candidate for Brutally Honest Comment of the Year. JR

Response:

"Jo" < Admittedly I would never take my kids fishing they are obnoxious and annoying.

… Bad habits can be broken…… john

Response:

You havent met my kids with a fishing rod 2 out of three are officially hyperactive and the other one is a budding self absorbed model god forbid any dirt attaching itself to that one. Fishing is actually stressful with them.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Jo" < Admittedly I would never take my kids fishing they are obnoxious and annoying. … Bad habits can be broken…… john

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Lodges with kids programs? Day cares in town? I know that it’s always possible to hire a local person as a sitter, but I’m thinking more about organized, professional care which will be more fun for the child. TIA, Rick

I’ve got an almost-two year old myself, and I went on two vacations in two months–Maui in December and Orlando in January. During the trip to Maui, my mother came up from Raleigh, NC to PA and stayed at our house with the baby.  Baby sleeps in her own bed, gets spoiled by grandma for 8 days, loves it.  Baby learns to say "Hawaii" and locate the islands on the globe.  Mom & Dad enjoy the islands for a week. During the trip to FL, my grandmother & aunt (both live practically next door) shared the same duties as my mom did a month earlier.  Baby sleeps in own bed, gets spoiled by auntie & great-grandma for a 4-day weekend.  Mom & Dad bring home ‘mouse ears’ for baby, in an effort to remove the mouse ears, baby snaps elastic chin strap against face, cries vigorously.  Mom & Dad supress laughter (mostly). My tactic so far has been simple:  don’t take the kid. I share your dilemma.  Life with two year old is not really the ideal situation for spending day after day astream, especially if Mom wants to go fishing as badly as Dad does… The ‘find a couple and share babysitting’ plan is a good one.  You could probably get 6 weekends/year from that plan.  One weekend/month/couple:  one month you babysit, one month they babysit. If your life is anything like mine (hectic), one weekend every other month is probably as often as you can get away. Basically, my advice is this:  FAMILY.  Grandparents, great- grandparents (if your child is so lucky) aunts & uncles, etc.  They’re the best babysitters money can buy (free), and they’ll treat your child like family–obviously.  And most kids think of grandma or a favorite aunt/uncle as being at least as fun as the county fair, if not better. If you can get a family member to staty at your house, so much the better.  Thell them to pay-per-view anything they’d like, give them some $$$ for ordering pizza, etc., and make sure they know where the local park is and how to get there. If you don’t have any family in driving distance, consider moving. Unless, that is, you live far from family by design. <g  In which case I have no worthwhile advice for you. Some weekends, I’d give anything for a few hours of privacy (wink wink, nod nod) with the spousal unit.  I don’t care if the baby lives on M&Ms and Potato Chips for the entire weekend–just make sure there’s no crying in the background when I call to see how things are and I’ll have a good time without baby. With the upcomping Penns Clave, the wife & I are considering buying a big cabin tent (we live less than an hour from Coburn) and taking baby camping for the first time.  I’ve got some misgivings about exposing wife and baby to ROFFians, but it’s a possibility.  Wife doesn’t fly fish (yet), and baby will probably want to throw rocks in creek all day, but I’ve yet to find a better way to spend lots of time at the Clave.  Since we’re less than an hour from home, the worst that could happen is that we all go home at night. Tom G constantly struggling to find time to fish

Response:

Not only family but friends are good resources.  Last time we took boys fishing (one good ol’ boy and one city boy), we went with Ol’ Whiskerface’s buddy.  One day, I’d take the kids sightseeing (indian ruins, big rocks, A&W rootbeer), the next day one or both menfolks would take one or both boys fishing, while I caught dinner.  We kinda "spread the wealth."  Now both boys all groan up and never call their mother.  Enjoy the little beggers while you can. Bob’s Wife in El Paso. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Basically, my advice is this:  FAMILY.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Find another couple with the same problem. Their passion doesn’t have to be fishing, could be golf, tennis, whatever.  The couples take turns looking after the other’s child.  Since the visiting child gets to play with a new playmate and toys, interest should not be a problem. Peter Damn!  I hate it when people give sound and thoughtful advice. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

Really.  I was waiting for some wag to suggest giving the kid a box of treble hooks the night before and then letting the doctors and your HMO take care of it from there, or something in equally poor taste…<G. Seriously, I liked the idea of taking the child, but the parents taking turns fishing.  Heck, by three or four, I was fishing – not quite with a fly yet, and not quite catching much (I’m not sure if I even had a complete hook – hey, if it’s not dynamite or electricity, it’s called _fishing_, not catching), but it taught me patience, etc. If that’s not practical, Peter’s idea seems pretty decent – maybe even find another couple in similar position (or even better, one non-fisher) and three can fish while one watches the kiddos.   TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Life as you knew is over. Some good tips in this thread but none that will make it like it was.  One reason there is so many geezers in roff is they have to wait till the kids leave and the dog dies to get back to fly fishing.  Fish when you can enjoy the kid. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it.

Response:

Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations?      None of my exes ever minded being left back at the cabin to watch the kids. Ummm, let me reword that, umm oh cripes, I think I’m starting to understand something.                   Charlie,                   getting in touch with my feminine side

    I think I know what you’re saying. My wife, when annoyed one time after I came home from a six hour round, asked me if I ever wondered why the 3 other guys in my Sunday morning foursome are all divorced.                                     Kelly

Response:

[snip]     I think I know what you’re saying. My wife, when annoyed one time after I came home from a six hour round, asked me if I ever wondered why the 3 other guys in my Sunday morning foursome are all divorced.                                     Kelly

the answers are: "Because I have a wonderful wife and their wives were real B^%$^s"  or "Now don’t go putting any silly ideas in my head"

Response:

I was expecting to hear something about lodges with rivers and kid programs, but I’d forgotten the warmth, creativity and thoughtfulness of this list. Several of the responses had me roaring with laughter. Thanks. Rick

Response:

I was expecting to hear something about lodges with rivers and kid programs, but I’d forgotten the warmth, creativity and thoughtfulness of this list. Several of the responses had me roaring with laughter. Thanks. Rick

All in a days work, Rick! As a single guy for 42 years, you damn sure don’t want a serious reply from me.  Besides, I wouldn’t have a clue what to suggest.  But I have heard that bears are nurturing critters, to a point. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

Response:

Seriously I think the only thing that would come close is taking the kid,…I have a friend who had been fly fishing with her dad since the age of 3 she is now 50 and coaches top fly fishers herself. Some of us are really lucky to have understanding spouses, in fact mine cancelled a golf afternoon without a blink because I planned to go fishing away for a weekend and forgot to tell him. Admittedly I would never take my kids fishing they are obnoxious and annoying.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was expecting to hear something about lodges with rivers and kid programs, but I’d forgotten the warmth, creativity and thoughtfulness of this list. Several of the responses had me roaring with laughter. Thanks. Rick

Response:

Admittedly I would never take my kids fishing they are obnoxious and annoying.

LOL.  This is one of the funniest lines I’ve read on ROFF (I hope you intended it that way) and a sure candidate for Brutally Honest Comment of the Year. JR

Response:

Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Lodges with kids programs? Day cares in town? I know that it’s always possible to hire a local person as a sitter, but I’m thinking more about organized, professional care which will be more fun for the child. TIA, Rick

Response:

Cheap rod a child can use

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Lodges with kids programs? Day cares in town? I know that it’s always possible to hire a local person as a sitter, but I’m thinking more about organized, professional care which will be more fun for the child. TIA, Rick

Response:

. Cheap rod a child can use I should have mentioned, this is for a 2 year old. Rick

Response:

Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations?

Each of you fish half a day. There’ll be plenty of time for romance fishing when the kid’s older. –Steve (hey, you asked…)

Response:

Children are God’s way of telling you that you have no business enjoying life. As toddlers they take up your time because they are helpless otherwise. As adolescents they must be shuttled to and fro from one activity to the next. As teenagers they are mean, nasty, vulgar little shits that may or may not require bail. As young adults they seem to have finally gotten their shit together, but will eventually destroy what is left of your sanity. As full grown adults they will fight with their siblings over some supposed fortune you are planning to leave, and then place you and your spouse in separate retirement homes. Realize of course that I speak from experience as a single guy.  BTW, mom and dad left me with nothing and they are presently communicating via the USPS, because I wouldn’t pay to have phone installed in their rooms at Shady Lake and Happy Trails Retirement Centers. Opie  –Bastard Son–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Lodges with kids programs? Day cares in town? I know that it’s always possible to hire a local person as a sitter, but I’m thinking more about organized, professional care which will be more fun for the child. TIA, Rick

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Lodges with kids programs? Day cares in town? I know that it’s always possible to hire a local person as a sitter, but I’m thinking more about organized, professional care which will be more fun for the child. TIA, Rick

Find another couple with the same problem. Their passion doesn’t have to be fishing, could be golf, tennis, whatever.  The couples take turns looking after the other’s child.  Since the visiting child gets to play with a new playmate and toys, interest should not be a problem. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Find another couple with the same problem. Their passion doesn’t have to be fishing, could be golf, tennis, whatever.  The couples take turns looking after the other’s child.  Since the visiting child gets to play with a new playmate and toys, interest should not be a problem. Peter

Damn!  I hate it when people give sound and thoughtful advice. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

Response:

Damn!  I hate it when people give sound and thoughtful advice. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

It’s a dirty job, but somebody’s gotta do it. Peter

Response:

Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations?

     None of my exes ever minded being left back at the cabin to watch the kids. Ummm, let me reword that, umm oh cripes, I think I’m starting to understand something.                   Charlie,                   getting in touch with my feminine side

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What would the investment in equipment be to make high quality: 1. Bamboo Rods 2. Hooks (including a chemical sharpener) I have seen some equipment on the web and things like that, but if one wanted to go into production to make Bamboo rods of high quality and low cost, what do you think it would take?  I think I will call my new rods…..wait for it…..BITCH yep, that’s it…<g I assume that hooks are made completely by machine.  Ummmm, I wonder how much a machine like that costs?… — Padishar Creel "What do we live for if it is not to make life less difficult to each other."  – George Eliot

Did you actually _read_ the quote in your signature? <G R …does "Padishar Creel" mean "shit stirrer" in elf<G? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I have some pics (somewhere) from a hookmaker in Redditch England  and they use a number of very simple machines just dedicated to one task such as forming the eye and one for putting on the bend etc. Cane rods are difficult because cane is a very difficult material  to work with and a 4ft strip of cane takes ‘x’ amount of time to machine. There is a feed and speed relationship that cannot be bridged, everything takes time. You can develop machines making it possible to employ an operator for $10 per hour and break the craft down into managable steps (as did Henry Ford)  It does not matter how you cut it, cane can never be cheap. If George had any production experience he would not have mouthed off so much before ever building a rod. He really listened to the wrong people. But if he can knock out the blanks at a timely rate and find a market for them which I am sure there is then he can scrape by. Terry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What would the investment in equipment be to make high quality: 1. Bamboo Rods 2. Hooks (including a chemical sharpener) I have seen some equipment on the web and things like that, but if one wanted to go into production to make Bamboo rods of high quality and low cost, what do you think it would take?  I think I will call my new rods…..wait for it…..BITCH yep, that’s it…<g I assume that hooks are made completely by machine.  Ummmm, I wonder how much a machine like that costs?… — Padishar Creel "What do we live for if it is not to make life less difficult to each other."  – George Eliot

Response:

I assume that hooks are made completely by machine.  Ummmm, I wonder how much a machine like that costs?… — Padishar Creel "What do we live for if it is not to make life less difficult to each other."  – George Eliot Did you actually _read_ the quote in your signature? <G …does "Padishar Creel" mean "shit stirrer" in elf<G?

—— Richard, your so right!  I thought stiring stuff about about fly fishing might be able to compete with all the political pot stiring.  I see I may have been right… —- Padishar Creel "What do we live for if it is not to make life less difficult to each other."  – George Eliot

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What would the investment in equipment be to make high quality:  1. Bamboo Rods  2. Hooks (including a chemical sharpener) I have seen some equipment on the web and things like that, but if one wanted to go into production to make Bamboo rods of high quality and low cost, what do you think it would take?  I think I will call my new rods…..wait for it…..BITCH yep, that’s it…<g I assume that hooks are made completely by machine.  Ummmm, I wonder how much a machine like that costs?… — Padishar Creel "What do we live for if it is not to make life less difficult to each other."  – George Eliot

I know I said I’d lurk a while without chiming in much, but I can’t resist —- I WANNA BUY A BITCH!!! <BFG

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have some pics (somewhere) from a hookmaker in Redditch England  and they use a number of very simple machines just dedicated to one task such as forming the eye and one for putting on the bend etc. Cane rods are difficult because cane is a very difficult material  to work with and a 4ft strip of cane takes ‘x’ amount of time to machine. There is a feed and speed relationship that cannot be bridged, everything takes time. You can develop machines making it possible to employ an operator for $10 per hour and break the craft down into managable steps (as did Henry Ford)  It does not matter how you cut it, cane can never be cheap. If George had any production experience he would not have mouthed off so much before ever building a rod. He really listened to the wrong people. But if he can knock out the blanks at a timely rate and find a market for them which I am sure there is then he can scrape by. Terry What would the investment in equipment be to make high quality: 1. Bamboo Rods 2. Hooks (including a chemical sharpener) I have seen some equipment on the web and things like that, but if one wanted to go into production to make Bamboo rods of high quality and low cost, what do you think it would take?  I think I will call my new rods…..wait for it…..BITCH yep, that’s it…<g I assume that hooks are made completely by machine.  Ummmm, I wonder how much a machine like that costs?… — Padishar Creel "What do we live for if it is not to make life less difficult to each other."  – George Eliot

Scrape by?  I have a standing order for 1000 blanks.  Scrape by?  Surely you jest Ackland? — George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/ http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What would the investment in equipment be to make high quality:  1. Bamboo Rods  2. Hooks (including a chemical sharpener) I have seen some equipment on the web and things like that, but if one wanted to go into production to make Bamboo rods of high quality and low cost, what do you think it would take?  I think I will call my new rods…..wait for it…..BITCH yep, that’s it…<g I assume that hooks are made completely by machine.  Ummmm, I wonder how much a machine like that costs?… — Padishar Creel "What do we live for if it is not to make life less difficult to each other."  – George Eliot I know I said I’d lurk a while without chiming in much, but I can’t resist —- I WANNA BUY A BITCH!!! <BFG

See?  There are so many spin off’s to my genius.  You’re all welcome.   — George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/ http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

I assume that hooks are made completely by machine.  Ummmm, I wonder how much a machine like that costs?… — Padishar Creel "What do we live for if it is not to make life less difficult to each other."  – George Eliot Did you actually _read_ the quote in your signature? <G …does "Padishar Creel" mean "shit stirrer" in elf<G? —— Richard, your so right!  I thought stiring stuff about about fly fishing might be able to compete with all the political pot stiring.  I see I may have been right…

Oh, what the hell… You mean you want to hear about the Duke of Erl’s plan to corner the hook market? And awa-a-a-y we go……<G. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —– Padishar Creel "What do we live for if it is not to make life less difficult to each other."  – George Eliot

Response:

What would the investment in equipment be to make high quality: 1. Bamboo Rods 2. Hooks (including a chemical sharpener) I have seen some equipment on the web and things like that, but if one wanted to go into production to make Bamboo rods of high quality and low cost, what do you think it would take?  I think I will call my new rods…..wait for it…..BITCH yep, that’s it…<g I assume that hooks are made completely by machine.  Ummmm, I wonder how much a machine like that costs?…

You want quality – and quantity? Well, there’s a bankrupt faker living in a single-wide on the Snake River that is bound to respond to your question. However, you should understand that he knows nothing about either. Set mode = ignore for your own sanity.

Response:

Scrape by would be the right term to use. Mr. Sage can wrap a $4 piece of Carbon fiber around a mandrel in 5 minutes and get more than you can get for your blanks. Sad but true, Terry   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have some pics (somewhere) from a hookmaker in Redditch England  and they use a number of very simple machines just dedicated to one task such as forming the eye and one for putting on the bend etc. Cane rods are difficult because cane is a very difficult material  to work with and a 4ft strip of cane takes ‘x’ amount of time to machine. There is a feed and speed relationship that cannot be bridged, everything takes time. You can develop machines making it possible to employ an operator for $10 per hour and break the craft down into managable steps (as did Henry Ford)  It does not matter how you cut it, cane can never be cheap. If George had any production experience he would not have mouthed off so much before ever building a rod. He really listened to the wrong people. But if he can knock out the blanks at a timely rate and find a market for them which I am sure there is then he can scrape by. Terry What would the investment in equipment be to make high quality: 1. Bamboo Rods 2. Hooks (including a chemical sharpener) I have seen some equipment on the web and things like that, but if one wanted to go into production to make Bamboo rods of high quality and low cost, what do you think it would take?  I think I will call my new rods…..wait for it…..BITCH yep, that’s it…<g I assume that hooks are made completely by machine.  Ummmm, I wonder how much a machine like that costs?… — Padishar Creel "What do we live for if it is not to make life less difficult to each other."  – George Eliot Scrape by?  I have a standing order for 1000 blanks.  Scrape by?  Surely you jest Ackland? — George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/ http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

I have seen some equipment on the web and things like that, but if one wanted to go into production to make Bamboo rods of high quality and low cost, what do you think it would take?

Let me put it to you this way… Let’s say you were able to sell 200 bamboo rods per year with a profit (after advertising, components, amortized equipment costs, salaries, etc) of $150 per rod. You’d make a whopping $30,000/year. You could do worse, of course, but there are *lots* of ways to make that much money with fewer startup costs and less risk. So let’s say that rather than trying to start a production line, you make them one-by-one instead. Quality over quantity. So, you buy a Morgan Hand Mill ($2500) and various other tools of the trade (another $1000–I know you could do it for less but if you were making professional quality rods you’d need professional quality tools). Then, you could–once you got a reputation–sell your rods for somewhere between $900 and $1500. Let’s say $1200, with a profit of $1000 per rod. So, let’s say it takes you 40 hours per rod. Assuming a 2000 hour year and unlimited demand, you could sell 50 rods and make an even more whopping $50,000/year. But the key here is unlimited demand. I’d be shocked if there are more than a couple of full-time custom builders making more than $30K/year. You can live off of $30K/year, of course. But you could make more money with less risk by taking a two-month computer training course. Plus you could get paid to read ROFF So why don’t you do this: build ten rods for the fun and experience of it. Since they won’t be perfect rods, give them away. You’ll have a great time, learn some of the tricks of the trade, and a few other folks will get to fish with the fruits of your labors. After you make ten rods, chances are that some of the pleasure will wear off and the reality that making rod-building a profession would be hard, tedious work will begin to set in. Sounds somehow familiar –Steve

Response:

Why do I think that there are some folks who already get paid to read ROFF even without having taken a computer training course?  Or is that just cynical?  ;-) JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some very interesting stuff about bamboo start-up costs snipped. You can live off of $30K/year, of course. But you could make more money with less risk by taking a two-month computer training course. Plus you could get paid to read ROFF

Response:

Why do I think that there are some folks who already get paid to read ROFF even without having taken a computer training course?  Or is that just cynical?

Ah, good point. You clearly understand the concept of (mis)using OPM <g. –Steve

Response:

What would the investment in equipment be to make high quality:  1. Bamboo Rods  2. Hooks (including a chemical sharpener) I have seen some equipment on the web and things like that, but if one wanted to go into production to make Bamboo rods of high quality and low cost, what do you think it would take?  I think I will call my new rods…..wait for it…..BITCH yep, that’s it…<g I assume that hooks are made completely by machine.  Ummmm, I wonder how much a machine like that costs?… — Padishar Creel "What do we live for if it is not to make life less difficult to each other."  – George Eliot

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen some equipment on the web and things like that, but if one wanted to go into production to make Bamboo rods of high quality and low cost, what do you think it would take? Let me put it to you this way… Let’s say you were able to sell 200 bamboo rods per year with a profit (after advertising, components, amortized equipment costs, salaries, etc) of $150 per rod. You’d make a whopping $30,000/year. You could do worse, of course, but there are *lots* of ways to make that much money with fewer startup costs and less risk. So let’s say that rather than trying to start a production line, you make them one-by-one instead. Quality over quantity.  

______  This is the hole in your thesis Steve.  "Quality over Quantity" It is now possible and it is now being done here to have both because a machine can do more accurately what a human can do with a plane, and do it a hundred times better. And cheaper.  This equates into being a Bastard, I guess. George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/ http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen some equipment on the web and things like that, but if one wanted to go into production to make Bamboo rods of high quality and low cost, what do you think it would take? Let me put it to you this way… Let’s say you were able to sell 200 bamboo rods per year with a profit (after advertising, components, amortized equipment costs, salaries, etc) of $150 per rod. You’d make a whopping $30,000/year. You could do worse, of course, but there are *lots* of ways to make that much money with fewer startup costs and less risk. So let’s say that rather than trying to start a production line, you make them one-by-one instead. Quality over quantity. ______  This is the hole in your thesis Steve.  "Quality over Quantity" It is now possible and it is now being done here to have both because a machine can do more accurately what a human can do with a plane, and do it a hundred times better. And cheaper.  This equates into being a Bastard, I guess. George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/ http://www.gink.com/chat

_______  By the way Steve, what are you paying for one Clum of Bamboo now and where are you buying it from? — George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/ http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

ND#1

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen some equipment on the web and things like that, but if one wanted to go into production to make Bamboo rods of high quality and low cost, what do you think it would take? Let me put it to you this way… Let’s say you were able to sell 200 bamboo rods per year with a profit (after advertising, components, amortized equipment costs, salaries, etc) of $150 per rod. You’d make a whopping $30,000/year. You could do worse, of course, but there are *lots* of ways to make that much money with fewer startup costs and less risk. So let’s say that rather than trying to start a production line, you make them one-by-one instead. Quality over quantity. So, you buy a Morgan Hand Mill ($2500) and various other tools of the trade (another $1000–I know you could do it for less but if you were making professional quality rods you’d need professional quality tools). Then, you could–once you got a reputation–sell your rods for somewhere between $900 and $1500. Let’s say $1200, with a profit of $1000 per rod. So, let’s say it takes you 40 hours per rod. Assuming a 2000 hour year and unlimited demand, you could sell 50 rods and make an even more whopping $50,000/year. But the key here is unlimited demand. I’d be shocked if there are more than a couple of full-time custom builders making more than $30K/year. You can live off of $30K/year, of course. But you could make more money with less risk by taking a two-month computer training course. Plus you could get paid to read ROFF So why don’t you do this: build ten rods for the fun and experience of it. Since they won’t be perfect rods, give them away. You’ll have a great time, learn some of the tricks of the trade, and a few other folks will get to fish with the fruits of your labors. After you make ten rods, chances are that some of the pleasure will wear off and the reality that making rod-building a profession would be hard, tedious work will begin to set in. Sounds somehow familiar –Steve

Response:

Question:

George,    Good observations all, would add that the Tricos are another one to add to that list of little mayflies and that here in the East US, I have seen a very small rusty colored dun in the later parts of the season. As noted, tying must be very sparse, with fine threads and little dubbing. We are in the midst of trico season on the Tulpehocken in PA. I have noted a couple of things about this hatch: First, emergers sometimes work after the spinner fall is over, as the fish sometimes go back to the crippled duns for a last snack. Second, a quick shot over risers with a larger, but not outrageous fly(say, a #18 sulfur,amidst #24 Tricos)will rise some good fish.                                     Tom Littleton

Response:

I don’t know if your American Caenis are the same as our Scottish ones (pale cream and cover your jacket with sloughed skins!) but we had a huge hatch on Loch leven on Friday. Damned frustrating but took 4 nice browns on s20 hares ear suspender. I wonder if they don’t take the nymphs as much as the adults. You’reright about the feeding lane!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These are the Mighty Mouse of all the flies.  When these little suckers come off the water in the trillions and bunches, nothing else will work.  There are some hints on how to fish these blanket hatches and it is well worth one’s time. Here is the time of year when fish of great size can be taken on hooks as small as you care to tie.  I tie the Baetis vagans with upright blue dun wings down to size 24’s.  The same goes for olive bodied Baetis that are coming off the water.  However, it is the spinner flight that makes the trout go mad.  As the Baetis spend themselves, the currents gather them in little bunches and many of the spent wings of both species are easily tied on size 20 – 26 hooks for you only need a hint of body color and with the fine spinning nature of mink or rabbit, this is not hard to do. The first thing to know is that paint brush filaments are great tails for the spinner flights.  As small as these flies are, I tie in two tails that are spread out to 3/4 of an inch long and across.  From the tail, you only need a hint of dubbing or a small woven body from thread only.  Dan Byford showed me how to do that and it works as ridiculous as it sounds.  Personally, I think its too much work. Again, the first thing I tie in are the spent wings, I go back to the filament tails, come forward with a little body color, and whip finish off.  You need 8/0 thread for this work and if you tie these flies with all the seriousness you can muster, it will pay handsome dividends. The secret to fishing these very tiny flies is to wade out and wait. Pick a feeding fish because all the fish will not be roaming all over chasing these things.  They will be feeding in a very narrow lane.  Your cast must be within an inch of width, most times for the trout to take and it has to be timed perfectly.  This may mean dozens of casts to the same fish until you’re convinced its playing with you.  Take your time. You shouldn’t be casting any farther than a dozen feet or so. Let the fly always float well past your target so you always pick up long after and behind the fish. How you dress these very minute flies is also important.  Float the fly, do not float the first four inches from the fly and float the rest of the leader with you know what.  This procedure will put a short but vital disconnection between he fly and 8X tippet. The next thing you need to do is slightly off-set the hook just a bit. Not much, just a little.  If you can find some Captain Hamilton Hooks by Partridge, dries at that, all the better because these have wide gaps. Make no mistake about it.  These small hooks will hold a big fish.  The will grab just about any mouth membrane and you may have your hands full with your first big fish on a small hook set up.  Check the drag and make sure its set to zero.  Just the line friction will be enough at the beginning stages of the battle.  Immediately at hook up, point the tip of your fly rod right at the fish and let it run right off the reel. ‘When casting,’ make sure you have no slack on the water that will snap to tautness and thus snapping you off. Getting back to the fish you’re working on, it goes like this with each cast.  Cast and then mend.  Cast and then mend.  Cast and then mend. Always mend, even if its just for a one foot float.  Always mend. If you think you need to do a false cast, after your fly goes behind the fish and out of view, false cast there before returning to deliver the fly for another float. Here is another secret some may not know.  The heavier the fly line you’re using the longer the leader must be. The lighter the fly line you’re using, the shorter the leader can be.  Just because you may be fishing a 7 WT, doesn’t mean you can’t fish Baetis and Caenis Duns and Spinners with it.  Just go to a 12 foot leader, hand tied if possible with a 36 inch 8X tippet.  If you know how to tie a good leader, you can make that baby turn all the way over each time and a lot of times you may be casting just the leader using a 9 foot NWT.  Here also, you want zero reel drag for starters. The Gink Book of Fly Fishing Records which few know about consists of anyone catching an 18 inch fish on a size 18 hook or a size 26 inch fish on a size 26 hook.  The only ones I have not been able to do yet is the 28 inch fish on a size 28 hook and of course the most difficult, the 32/32  Club.  This however; is another story for another time. So if you find yourself in the Caenis blizzard hatch, smile and start setting up your gear.  The tails may seem unusual but they work.  Just don’t forget your blue or yellow polaroid sun glasses.  Fishing these flies is where bamboo really shines. See you again soon. — Mr.Gink "the saga continues" http://www.gink.com/

Response:

These are the Mighty Mouse of all the flies.  When these little suckers come off the water in the trillions and bunches, nothing else will work.  There are some hints on how to fish these blanket hatches and it is well worth one’s time. Here is the time of year when fish of great size can be taken on hooks as small as you care to tie.  I tie the Baetis vagans with upright blue dun wings down to size 24’s.  The same goes for olive bodied Baetis that are coming off the water.  However, it is the spinner flight that makes the trout go mad.  As the Baetis spend themselves, the currents gather them in little bunches and many of the spent wings of both species are easily tied on size 20 – 26 hooks for you only need a hint of body color and with the fine spinning nature of mink or rabbit, this is not hard to do.   The first thing to know is that paint brush filaments are great tails for the spinner flights.  As small as these flies are, I tie in two tails that are spread out to 3/4 of an inch long and across.  From the tail, you only need a hint of dubbing or a small woven body from thread only.  Dan Byford showed me how to do that and it works as ridiculous as it sounds.  Personally, I think its too much work. Again, the first thing I tie in are the spent wings, I go back to the filament tails, come forward with a little body color, and whip finish off.  You need 8/0 thread for this work and if you tie these flies with all the seriousness you can muster, it will pay handsome dividends. The secret to fishing these very tiny flies is to wade out and wait. Pick a feeding fish because all the fish will not be roaming all over chasing these things.  They will be feeding in a very narrow lane.  Your cast must be within an inch of width, most times for the trout to take and it has to be timed perfectly.  This may mean dozens of casts to the same fish until you’re convinced its playing with you.  Take your time. You shouldn’t be casting any farther than a dozen feet or so.   Let the fly always float well past your target so you always pick up long after and behind the fish.   How you dress these very minute flies is also important.  Float the fly, do not float the first four inches from the fly and float the rest of the leader with you know what.  This procedure will put a short but vital disconnection between he fly and 8X tippet.   The next thing you need to do is slightly off-set the hook just a bit. Not much, just a little.  If you can find some Captain Hamilton Hooks by Partridge, dries at that, all the better because these have wide gaps. Make no mistake about it.  These small hooks will hold a big fish.  The will grab just about any mouth membrane and you may have your hands full with your first big fish on a small hook set up.  Check the drag and make sure its set to zero.  Just the line friction will be enough at the beginning stages of the battle.  Immediately at hook up, point the tip of your fly rod right at the fish and let it run right off the reel. ‘When casting,’ make sure you have no slack on the water that will snap to tautness and thus snapping you off. Getting back to the fish you’re working on, it goes like this with each cast.  Cast and then mend.  Cast and then mend.  Cast and then mend. Always mend, even if its just for a one foot float.  Always mend. If you think you need to do a false cast, after your fly goes behind the fish and out of view, false cast there before returning to deliver the fly for another float. Here is another secret some may not know.  The heavier the fly line you’re using the longer the leader must be. The lighter the fly line you’re using, the shorter the leader can be.  Just because you may be fishing a 7 WT, doesn’t mean you can’t fish Baetis and Caenis Duns and Spinners with it.  Just go to a 12 foot leader, hand tied if possible with a 36 inch 8X tippet.  If you know how to tie a good leader, you can make that baby turn all the way over each time and a lot of times you may be casting just the leader using a 9 foot NWT.  Here also, you want zero reel drag for starters. The Gink Book of Fly Fishing Records which few know about consists of anyone catching an 18 inch fish on a size 18 hook or a size 26 inch fish on a size 26 hook.  The only ones I have not been able to do yet is the 28 inch fish on a size 28 hook and of course the most difficult, the 32/32  Club.  This however; is another story for another time. So if you find yourself in the Caenis blizzard hatch, smile and start setting up your gear.  The tails may seem unusual but they work.  Just don’t forget your blue or yellow polaroid sun glasses.  Fishing these flies is where bamboo really shines. See you again soon. — Mr.Gink "the saga continues"   http://www.gink.com/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know if your American Caenis are the same as our Scottish ones (pale cream and cover your jacket with sloughed skins!) but we had a huge hatch on Loch leven on Friday. Damned frustrating but took 4 nice browns on s20 hares ear suspender. I wonder if they don’t take the nymphs as much as the adults. You’reright about the feeding lane! These are the Mighty Mouse of all the flies.  When these little suckers come off the water in the trillions and bunches, nothing else will work.  There are some hints on how to fish these blanket hatches and it is well worth one’s time. Here is the time of year when fish of great size can be taken on hooks as small as you care to tie.  I tie the Baetis vagans with upright blue dun wings down to size 24’s.  The same goes for olive bodied Baetis that are coming off the water.  However, it is the spinner flight that makes the trout go mad.  As the Baetis spend themselves, the currents gather them in little bunches and many of the spent wings of both species are easily tied on size 20 – 26 hooks for you only need a hint of body color and with the fine spinning nature of mink or rabbit, this is not hard to do. The first thing to know is that paint brush filaments are great tails for the spinner flights.  As small as these flies are, I tie in two tails that are spread out to 3/4 of an inch long and across.  From the tail, you only need a hint of dubbing or a small woven body from thread only.  Dan Byford showed me how to do that and it works as ridiculous as it sounds.  Personally, I think its too much work. Again, the first thing I tie in are the spent wings, I go back to the filament tails, come forward with a little body color, and whip finish off.  You need 8/0 thread for this work and if you tie these flies with all the seriousness you can muster, it will pay handsome dividends. The secret to fishing these very tiny flies is to wade out and wait. Pick a feeding fish because all the fish will not be roaming all over chasing these things.  They will be feeding in a very narrow lane.  Your cast must be within an inch of width, most times for the trout to take and it has to be timed perfectly.  This may mean dozens of casts to the same fish until you’re convinced its playing with you.  Take your time. You shouldn’t be casting any farther than a dozen feet or so. Let the fly always float well past your target so you always pick up long after and behind the fish. How you dress these very minute flies is also important.  Float the fly, do not float the first four inches from the fly and float the rest of the leader with you know what.  This procedure will put a short but vital disconnection between he fly and 8X tippet. The next thing you need to do is slightly off-set the hook just a bit. Not much, just a little.  If you can find some Captain Hamilton Hooks by Partridge, dries at that, all the better because these have wide gaps. Make no mistake about it.  These small hooks will hold a big fish.  The will grab just about any mouth membrane and you may have your hands full with your first big fish on a small hook set up.  Check the drag and make sure its set to zero.  Just the line friction will be enough at the beginning stages of the battle.  Immediately at hook up, point the tip of your fly rod right at the fish and let it run right off the reel. ‘When casting,’ make sure you have no slack on the water that will snap to tautness and thus snapping you off. Getting back to the fish you’re working on, it goes like this with each cast.  Cast and then mend.  Cast and then mend.  Cast and then mend. Always mend, even if its just for a one foot float.  Always mend. If you think you need to do a false cast, after your fly goes behind the fish and out of view, false cast there before returning to deliver the fly for another float. Here is another secret some may not know.  The heavier the fly line you’re using the longer the leader must be. The lighter the fly line you’re using, the shorter the leader can be.  Just because you may be fishing a 7 WT, doesn’t mean you can’t fish Baetis and Caenis Duns and Spinners with it.  Just go to a 12 foot leader, hand tied if possible with a 36 inch 8X tippet.  If you know how to tie a good leader, you can make that baby turn all the way over each time and a lot of times you may be casting just the leader using a 9 foot NWT.  Here also, you want zero reel drag for starters. The Gink Book of Fly Fishing Records which few know about consists of anyone catching an 18 inch fish on a size 18 hook or a size 26 inch fish on a size 26 hook.  The only ones I have not been able to do yet is the 28 inch fish on a size 28 hook and of course the most difficult, the 32/32  Club.  This however; is another story for another time. So if you find yourself in the Caenis blizzard hatch, smile and start setting up your gear.  The tails may seem unusual but they work.  Just don’t forget your blue or yellow polaroid sun glasses.  Fishing these flies is where bamboo really shines. See you again soon. — Mr.Gink "the saga continues" http://www.gink.com/

When they start coming up for the dries, they often are distracted by any other emergers at the time.  The Gold Ribbed Hare’s Ear proves that as it is not the spinner flight you were working.  Trout, it is known are opportunist.  Not unlike Roffians. LOL! — Mr.Gink "the saga continues"   http://www.gink.com/

Response:

I don’t know if your American Caenis are the same as our Scottish ones (pale cream and cover your jacket with sloughed skins!) but we had a huge hatch on Loch leven on Friday. Damned frustrating but took 4 nice browns on s20 hares ear suspender. I wonder if they don’t take the nymphs as much as the adults. You’reright about the feeding lane!

_____  You’re correct about emergers at the same time.  As many are coming as going.  LOL!  This is why when the spinner ever goes awash, they smash it anyhow. Thanks for the response Malcolm. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mr.Gink "the saga continues" http://www.gink.com/

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My home river has been alternating on a daily basis between running high and muddy and high and clear with an amber tinge. When it is running amber, the fishing is pretty good, but with the heavy flows, traditional dry techniques aren’t productive. In this heavy flowing, colored water, I’ve been having good success with a technique that was shown to me by an old rancher about twenty years ago. The technique is a fun one and is often productive when the trout are reluctant to come up for traditionally fished dries. It’s a technique geared for fishing fast, heavy water. I use it mainly in pocket water, but it also works on the streamside edges of heavy, deep water and in around any obstructions in deep strong runs. The flies I use are a high floating dry with a wet fly or soft hackle on a dropper of about 2 feet. I generally use a dry about two sizes bigger than I normally would and use a fly two sizes smaller than the dry as a dropper. The dropper is optional but will result in more hookups. I’ll describe the technique for a pocket water situation where I mainly use it. Casts can be short or long, but since you can approach fish closely in pocket water, often surprisingly close, and short casts give you much more control, I use casts of under fifteen feet 90% of the time. The only time I use longer casts is when the water is too deep or heavy to get to an area I want to fish. I try to fish an area thoroughly, even spots where there doesn’t appear to be any rocks that could break up the current, but I concentrate the casts to run through any visible areas where larger rocks provide calm water cushions. I generally a cast up and across stream and immediately raise the rod tip to lift all the fly line off the water and get direct contact with the fly.  I then begin dragging and skipping the fly across the current. I vary the action of the fly but the key is lots of action.  When the flies get in a position just below me, I begin maneuvering them through each small pocket I can find.  I skitter them upstream and down, back and forth through any pockets below. This technique will bring good fish to the surface that ignore more placid, traditional techniques. The quick moving flies result in strikes that are aggressive, vicious, slashing, fast, exciting etc. and you will get many more misses than hookups. Setting the hook at the strike usually results in pulling the fly away from the trout. Strikes need to be delayed but because of the tight line, the fish will usually hook themselves. Since there are a large percentage of missed fish with this technique, the feeding locations and holding areas that are revealed, need to be fished again. Since most of these missed strikes, refusals etc. are to the larger, more visible dry, the next thing I do is to try to maneuver the small dropper through the area trying to skip it across the surface. If this doesn’t work, I do a number of traditional drag free drifts through the area, paying close attention for hits on the dropper. This technique is definitely a kick when it’s working.  It elicits strikes from trout more akin to those of a bass or a pike to a popper than a typical sedate sip to a dry. I tend to ignore the technique when the fish are rising to more typical techniques but maybe I shouldn’t. Willi Interesting technique Willi.  I think most of us have used a similar

approach for pocket water, but not with a dropper, and not with a systematic plan.  For me its been an approach used out of necessity at times for fishing pocket water, especially casting over currents or boulders.  I’ll try it next opportunity. Pat K Before you buy.

Response:

My home river has been alternating on a daily basis between running high and muddy and high and clear with an amber tinge. When it is running amber, the fishing is pretty good, but with the heavy flows, traditional dry techniques aren’t productive. In this heavy flowing, colored water, I’ve been having good success with a technique that was shown to me by an old rancher about twenty years ago. The technique is a fun one and is often productive when the trout are reluctant to come up for traditionally fished dries. It’s a technique geared for fishing fast, heavy water. I use it mainly in pocket water, but it also works on the streamside edges of heavy, deep water and in around any obstructions in deep strong runs. The flies I use are a high floating dry with a wet fly or soft hackle on a dropper of about 2 feet. I generally use a dry about two sizes bigger than I normally would and use a fly two sizes smaller than the dry as a dropper. The dropper is optional but will result in more hookups. I’ll describe the technique for a pocket water situation where I mainly use it. Casts can be short or long, but since you can approach fish closely in pocket water, often surprisingly close, and short casts give you much more control, I use casts of under fifteen feet 90% of the time. The only time I use longer casts is when the water is too deep or heavy to get to an area I want to fish. I try to fish an area thoroughly, even spots where there doesn’t appear to be any rocks that could break up the current, but I concentrate the casts to run through any visible areas where larger rocks provide calm water cushions. I generally a cast up and across stream and immediately raise the rod tip to lift all the fly line off the water and get direct contact with the fly.  I then begin dragging and skipping the fly across the current. I vary the action of the fly but the key is lots of action.  When the flies get in a position just below me, I begin maneuvering them through each small pocket I can find.  I skitter them upstream and down, back and forth through any pockets below. This technique will bring good fish to the surface that ignore more placid, traditional techniques. The quick moving flies result in strikes that are aggressive, vicious, slashing, fast, exciting etc. and you will get many more misses than hookups. Setting the hook at the strike usually results in pulling the fly away from the trout. Strikes need to be delayed but because of the tight line, the fish will usually hook themselves. Since there are a large percentage of missed fish with this technique, the feeding locations and holding areas that are revealed, need to be fished again. Since most of these missed strikes, refusals etc. are to the larger, more visible dry, the next thing I do is to try to maneuver the small dropper through the area trying to skip it across the surface. If this doesn’t work, I do a number of traditional drag free drifts through the area, paying close attention for hits on the dropper. This technique is definitely a kick when it’s working.  It elicits strikes from trout more akin to those of a bass or a pike to a popper than a typical sedate sip to a dry. I tend to ignore the technique when the fish are rising to more typical techniques but maybe I shouldn’t. Willi

Response:

Question:

0] hot-damn…. i made a form! shoot, i’ll be insufferable tomorrow astream

Come now, don’t sell yourself short, you’re insufferable now online. ,      - Ken

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 0] : I found this form on another NG, and thought perhaps it might be of vague : interest. : TL : MC : — : : …. Mike You must have missed the one I cooked up and posted last year. Some of it’s a bit dated now, but a lot of it still applies You’re right Mike, I had forgotten this form but it would still work today.  Some would be insulted, however, at not being included in the identity checklist. Mark Faulkner

_____  I should feel slighted Mark.  ; ) Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

hot-damn…. i made a form! shoot, i’ll be insufferable tomorrow astream waldo

well, guess i’ll be returning the curtains and fixing the flat tomorrow then <G jeff (sufferin from the insufferable)

Response:

0]

hot-damn…. i made a form! shoot, i’ll be insufferable tomorrow astream waldo

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 0] : I found this form on another NG, and thought perhaps it might be of vague : interest. : TL : MC : — : : …. Mike You must have missed the one I cooked up and posted last year. Some of it’s a bit dated now, but a lot of it still applies

You’re right Mike, I had forgotten this form but it would still work today.  Some would be insulted, however, at not being included in the identity checklist. Mark Faulkner

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 0] : I found this form on another NG, and thought perhaps it might be of vague : interest. : TL : MC : — : "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the : impossible" : http://www.mikeconnor.de : : …. Mike You must have missed the one I cooked up and posted last year. Some of it’s a bit dated now, but a lot of it still applies  General Purpose rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Flame Form–Check All That Apply  Dear   [X] George            [ ] Wayne         [ ] Dave          [ ] Mike   [ ] T-bone            [ ] Ralph         [ ] Ken           [ ] Walt   [ ] Tony              [ ] Ernie         [X ] Poet          [ ] …   [X ] ROFFian           [X ] Dry Flyfisher [X ] Flyfisher     [ ] Beadhead User   [X ] NON-Indicator User    [ ] Spinfisher    [ ] Bait Chucker  [ ] Cutter of Bait   [ ] Uninformed Newbie [ ] Spammer       [ ] Republican    [ ] Democrat   [X ] Capitalist        [ ] Socialist     [ ] Despoiler of Rivers   [ ] PETA Member/AR Crank  You are being flamed with torch set on   [X ] Gentle Warm(n)ing [ ] Threshold of Pain [ ] Pyrolize [ ] Thermonuclear   because   [ ] Concerning the thread on         [X ] C&R [ ] Indicators [ ] Beadheads  [ ] Impeachment [ ] Tree Spiking       you                 [ ] started it      [ ] posted to it                 [X ] are for it      [ ] are against it                 [ ] have no opinion on it   [X ] you use Gink and Xink   [ ] you don’t use Gink and Xink   [ ] you’ve never heard of Gink and Xink   [ ] you flamed George       [X ] for advising of the availability and usefulness of Gink and Xink       [X ] for well considered reasonable opinions   [ ] you flamed George      [ ] for spamming on Gink and Xink      [X ] for outrageous crazy opinions   [ ] you defended George      [ ] for spamming on Gink and Xink      [X ] for outrageous crazy opinions   [ ] you defended George      [ ] for advising us of the availability and usefulness of Gink and Xink      [X ] for well considered reasonable opinions   [X ] you should order a Lil’ Bastard   [ ] you haven’t yet ordered a Lil’ Bastard   [ ] you are coming to the ‘clave   [X ] you are not coming to the ‘clave   [X ] you are not supplying your share of Famous Grouse for the ‘clave   [ ] Concerning a reasonable question on flyfishing         [ ] you asked it         [X ] you answered it well         [ ] you gave an unhelpful answer/made a snide remark   [ ] you dylsexic, did you even read what I wrote?   [ ] you advocated having a moderator for ROFF   [ ] you are against having a moderator for ROFF   [X ] you shouted FISH LOVE ME!   [ ] you posted HTML or binary   [ ] you spammed us   [ ] you posted an anonymous attack Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491

Mike! Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

I found this form on another NG, and thought perhaps it might be of vague interest.

<snip Yep. That would be the Standard Phoenix LART Form, popularized by Phoenix of news.admin.net-abuse.email.   A most dangerous item, to be handled with the greatest of care. You never quite know when they’ll go off. Opt out == cop-out. What’s so hard to understand?

Response:

I think C&K is better than C&R. Everybody knows that cattle ranchers are all environment-polluting welfare queens who are probably all in militias. Weighted nymphs are the only way to go. #12 wasn’t such a bad rod after all. And BTW, what’s the best floatant? Opt out == cop-out. What’s so hard to understand?

Response:

….. #12 wasn’t such a bad rod after all.

You were doing so well till the slip up with the past tense.  At last report, old #12 was once again corporeal and winging on its happy way to another satisfied customer.

Response:

0] : I found this form on another NG, and thought perhaps it might be of vague : interest. : TL : MC : — : "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the : impossible" : http://www.mikeconnor.de : : …. Mike You must have missed the one I cooked up and posted last year. Some of it’s a bit dated now, but a lot of it still applies  General Purpose rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Flame Form–Check All That Apply  Dear   [ ] George            [ ] Wayne         [ ] Dave          [ ] Mike   [ ] T-bone            [ ] Ralph         [ ] Ken           [ ] Walt   [ ] Tony              [ ] Ernie         [ ] Poet          [ ] …   [ ] ROFFian           [ ] Dry Flyfisher [ ] Flyfisher     [ ] Beadhead User   [ ] Indicator User    [ ] Spinfisher    [ ] Bait Chucker  [ ] Cutter of Bait   [ ] Uninformed Newbie [ ] Spammer       [ ] Republican    [ ] Democrat   [ ] Capitalist        [ ] Socialist     [ ] Despoiler of Rivers   [ ] PETA Member/AR Crank  You are being flamed with torch set on   [ ] Gentle Warm(n)ing [ ] Threshold of Pain [ ] Pyrolize [ ] Thermonuclear   because   [ ] Concerning the thread on         [ ] C&R [ ] Indicators [ ] Beadheads  [ ] Impeachment [ ] Tree Spiking       you                 [ ] started it      [ ] posted to it                           [ ] are for it      [ ] are against it                   [ ] have no opinion on it   [ ] you use Gink and Xink   [ ] you don’t use Gink and Xink   [ ] you’ve never heard of Gink and Xink   [ ] you flamed George       [ ] for advising us of the availability and usefulness of Gink and Xink       [ ] for well considered reasonable opinions   [ ] you flamed George      [ ] for spamming on Gink and Xink      [ ] for outrageous crazy opinions   [ ] you defended George      [ ] for spamming on Gink and Xink      [ ] for outrageous crazy opinions   [ ] you defended George      [ ] for advising us of the availability and usefulness of Gink and Xink      [ ] for well considered reasonable opinions   [ ] you have ordered a Lil’ Bastard   [ ] you haven’t yet ordered a Lil’ Bastard   [ ] you are coming to the ‘clave   [ ] you are not coming to the ‘clave   [ ] you are not supplying your share of Famous Grouse for the ‘clave   [ ] Concerning a reasonable question on flyfishing         [ ] you asked it           [ ] you answered it well         [ ] you gave an unhelpful answer/made a snide remark   [ ] you dylsexic, did you even read what I wrote?   [ ] you advocated having a moderator for ROFF   [ ] you are against having a moderator for ROFF   [ ] you shouted (USED ALL CAPS!!!)   [ ] you posted HTML or binary   [ ] you spammed us   [ ] you posted an anonymous attack Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

Hey you bunch of low-life assholes, even if you don’t know anything about fly-fishing or morals and are stupid anyway I would like to do you all a favour. snip<

Well, let me set you straight on a couple points……   Oh wait.   This is a contest entry isn’t it?  Oops, I didn’t notice at first.  <g Joe F.

Response:

Hi Wolfgang, please send my thirty marks, (or ten dollars will do), to Louies Breakfast BVD fund, this is a recognised charity, and is designed to prevent serious psychological damage to clave attendees. TL MC– "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

Mike Connor drivels: Hi Wolfgang, please send my thirty marks, (or ten dollars will do), to Louies Breakfast BVD fund, this is a recognised charity, and is designed to prevent serious psychological damage to clave attendees.

Harumphhhhhh!  Ingrates!!!!! (But send the money, Wolfie!)  d;0) Dave L. (Louie’s alter ego)…

Response:

Hey you bunch of low-life assholes, even if you don’t know anything about fly-fishing or morals and are stupid anyway I would like to do you all a favour.

[deleted] You gonna tell us how to tip a sparse hackled #16 paraleptaphlebia spinner with half a red wriggler ? — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Hey you bunch of low-life assholes, even if you don’t know anything about fly-fishing or morals and are stupid anyway I would like to do you all a favour. I have a self-made unique cane rod for sale, with the serial # 1234, which I built after three days intensive study of the available material. It is perfect. I am selling this on e-bay, and in order to give all the idiots out there at least a chance of this once in a lifetime offer I have crossposted this to one hundred and twenty other news groups.  First bid over ten thousand dollars gets it. If there are several bids it will be raffled, no low-lifes will be considered, unless they pay in advance, tickets cost twelve thousand dollars. As a special offer you can visit my website for nothing and talk about any personal problems you may have. This website is a public service, so don’t waste my time talking about fishing on it. I also tie perfect flies, but I am not selling any to low-lifes, so get lost, tie your own, you might even catch something on them even if they are shit, and will probably murder the fish as well. Please note all my business is conducted on this or other news groups, so that none of you lying SOB

Question:

Attn:  Warren Funk Warren, If you are still interested in finding background for the knot you described I have found a name and diagram in some of my archives. It is called a Pitzen Knot.  I only have a print out of it that I have collected somewhere off a net site quite sometime ago.  The site probably doesn’t exist anymore.  I may have it shown in my "knot bible" but it is in the boat away from here. The tying technique is somewhat different than you described but I have tied the knot using yours and the diagram and I’m quite sure it is the same knot. I was quite intrigued with your description and technique for the knot and have been using it. The illustration I have on hand is not great but I think it would scan adequately.  I would be glad to do so and e-mail it to you or put it in the binary newsgroup if interested.

Response:

No need to do any of the tasks listed.  Just go to Alta Vista and search for "Pitzen Knot".  I got several hits.  One of which: http://nucleus.agron.missouri.edu/flyfishing/pitzen.html  has a good description and rating on the knot.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Attn:  Warren Funk Warren, If you are still interested in finding background for the knot you described I have found a name and diagram in some of my archives. It is called a Pitzen Knot.  I only have a print out of it that I have collected somewhere off a net site quite sometime ago.  The site probably doesn’t exist anymore.  I may have it shown in my "knot bible" but it is in the boat away from here. The tying technique is somewhat different than you described but I have tied the knot using yours and the diagram and I’m quite sure it is the same knot. I was quite intrigued with your description and technique for the knot and have been using it. The illustration I have on hand is not great but I think it would scan adequately.  I would be glad to do so and e-mail it to you or put it in the binary newsgroup if interested.

Response:

Al – thanks for checking on this.  I would have to try both and see what they look like when finished, but I can guarantee that the way I tie it is a whole lot faster and simpler than the way it is shown on the web site you gave.  I also thought that the Hangman’s knot looked very similar, and may be the same knot at the Pitzen knot. Warren Funk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Attn:  Warren Funk Warren, If you are still interested in finding background for the knot you described I have found a name and diagram in some of my archives. It is called a Pitzen Knot.  I only have a print out of it that I have collected somewhere off a net site quite sometime ago.  The site probably doesn’t exist anymore.  I may have it shown in my "knot bible" but it is in the boat away from here. The tying technique is somewhat different than you described but I have tied the knot using yours and the diagram and I’m quite sure it is the same knot. I was quite intrigued with your description and technique for the knot and have been using it. The illustration I have on hand is not great but I think it would scan adequately.  I would be glad to do so and e-mail it to you or put it in the binary newsgroup if interested.

Response:

One of the sites I ran into looking for this showed another method, a variation of slinging the lure around the line.  I had opted for this method when using a heavy stiff 20+ACM- line that gave me trouble slinging it around. I let the lure hang down and wrapped the line around the vertical hanging line while holding on to the line and clinching loop. I use the Hangman’s Knot (Uni Knot) and I’m sure it is not the Pitzen Knot. Another one I use is the Scaffold Knot (Centauri).  I tie it by extending my forefinger beyond the tip of my thumb that is pinching the standing line and wrap the loose end 3 times around my finger tip, slip off the coil and run the loose end through the coils in the direction of the standing line.  It can also be doubled at the eye. Warren Funk …wrote … +AD4- …I would have to try both and see what +AD4- they look like when finished, but I can guarantee that the way I tie it is a +AD4- whole lot faster and simpler than the way it is shown on the web site you +AD4- gave.  I also thought that the Hangman’s knot looked very similar, and may +AD4- be the same knot at the Pitzen knot. +AD4- Al wrote … +AD4- +AD4- If you are still interested in finding background for the knot you +AD4- described +AD4- +AD4- I have found a name and diagram in some of my archives. +AD4- +AD4- It is called a Pitzen Knot…

Response:

Question:

Hi.  I’m fairly new to southern Erie County, NY.  I’ve heard that there is nice salmon fishing in Eighteen Mile Creek in the fall, and I’d like to prepare.  Is anyone out here familiar with this water?  I am interested in when, where, and how (with what).  I am fairly familiar with it from Lake Erie to the big fork.  Would really appreciate any advice or even a partner.  (have chests wades and a small 4wd)  Could do either fly/spin/livebait).  Thanks again for any help.                                         Michael Kankiewicz                                         Business / Government Documents                                         Lockwood Memorial Library                                         University at Buffalo

Response:

Hi Mike, I take it you attend U.B since your sending this from the grad library . 18 mile is nit really a good chinook salmon tributary. actually the chinook salmon  population is fairly limited in all of lake erie. You will some coho salmon in 18 and other lake erie tributaries but most of all you will find steelhead. The primary tackle on 18 is egg sacks for steelhead,power bait. I float fish for steelhead with a 13 ft rod and a centerpin float reel as they do in canada. i also fly fish . if you fly fish on 18 i suggest small flies size 8 thru 10 egg sucking leaches,  size 8 glow bugs. at time the current can be slow esp in winter and water gin clear you may want to use a small float for strike indicator.Since your new to the area i suggest you go to the book store to pick up the sanders guide -which will give you all the spots in the area. If your still interest in chinook try oak orachard creek in orleans county,18 mile creek in niagara county or the lower niagara itself–lake ontario has larger population of chinooks-which proably will show up by end of september.If you dont mind taking a long ride say for a weekend there is the salmon river north of syracuse–you proably already know about that RIVERS REPUTATION AS WORLD CLASS. I hope this helps e mail if you have more questions.

Response:

Question:

I just thought that i would tell the world that my son got his first salmon last week a six pound hummpy. What a thrill for him.

Response:

I just thought that i would tell the world that my son got his first salmon last week a six pound hummpy. What a thrill for him.

Wow! That kid must have some arm casting a six pound humpy.  (does there really exist a humpy salmon?)

Response:

 I just thought that i would tell the world that my son got his first  salmon last week a six pound hummpy. What a thrill for him.  Wow! That kid must have some arm casting a six pound humpy.  (does there  really exist a humpy salmon?)

    Yes.  It’s another name for a Pink Salmon.

Response:

writes: (does there really exist a humpy salmon?)

In Alaska they call them "Humpies from Hell".  They come in every other year and take flies well.  Unfortunately they come in about the same time the silvers do and take the fly before it gets down to the larger silvers.  Great light tackle fish (6 or 7 wt.). Not as much fun on the 8 or 9 wt. you’d use for silvers (at least in Alaska).                                                      Dan

Response:

Question:

: I have begun to fish there the ;ast few years and would like to know more : about the rivers history, effective patterns and the use of feather wing : salmon flies. : _Atlantic Salmon Flies and Fishing_ by Joseph D. Bates, Jr. (1970, : Stackpole Books) will give you much of this information.  It’s been long : out of print and so it’s hard to find, but there has recently been talk of : it being reissued.  It’s the best source of historical info on featherwings   Hunters Angling Supplies in New Hampshire (?) list Bate’s book in their ‘95 catalogue. Sorry don’t have thier number handy but I seem to recall the book cost aboout $65. Cheers, tim  Troutdale, OR                                    

Response:

I am interested in exchanging information with people that have some experience in salmon fishing on the Miramichi. I have begun to fish there the ;ast few years and would like to know more about the rivers history, effective patterns and the use of feather wing salmon flies. Thanks. George George

Response:

I am interested in exchanging information with people that have some experience in salmon fishing on the Miramichi. I have begun to fish there the ;ast few years and would like to know more about the rivers history, effective patterns and the use of feather wing salmon flies. Thanks. George George

I would be pleased to participate in a discussion of these subjects, since the Miramichi flows "through my backyard". I can see the river from by back door (unfortunately ice-covered at the moment). I will watch this newsgroups for follow-up postings relating to this thread.

Response:

I am interested in exchanging information with people that have some experience in salmon fishing on the Miramichi. I have begun to fish there the ;ast few years and would like to know more about the rivers history, effective patterns and the use of feather wing salmon flies.

_Atlantic Salmon Flies and Fishing_ by Joseph D. Bates, Jr. (1970, Stackpole Books) will give you much of this information.  It’s been long out of print and so it’s hard to find, but there has recently been talk of it being reissued.  It’s the best source of historical info on featherwings by tiers such as Ira Gruber.  There are also a couple of paperback books by Wayne Curtis which have similar information, and these you can find in stores in the Miramichi valley.  The titles of these books escape me at the moment.  If you have not yet done so, visit the Miramichi Salmon Museum in Doaktown; where much of the region’s angling heritage has been preserved. The exhibits of flies may particularly interest you. Woods Hole, MA   USA  

Response:

I would be pleased to participate in a discussion of these subjects, since the Miramichi flows "through my backyard". I can see the river from by back door (unfortunately ice-covered at the moment). I will watch this newsgroups for follow-up postings relating to this thread.

I am interested in fishing late summer of 1995.  Is this a reasonable time and what suggestions for lodging etc.  I am strickly flyfish, catch and release and would love dry fly action.  What are the chances for Sept.?

Response:

I have had limited experience in July and September but have had sucess on both.  The weather was not suitable for dry flies so most fishing was done on a dry line with green machines in size 8 – 12 doubles.  The September trip, just before the close of the season was very good until it rained heavily.  All four members of my party caught fish in good size.  The fished jumped and ran repeatedly. There are many other more experienced people that seem interested in this topic so I will defer to their information.  I would look forward to the trip in either month but expect it to be fishing – dependent upon conditions. George (MMMGH) George

Response:

Jay, At least one or two others have expressed interest in this topic.  I will look forward to reading your opinions on the subjects. One question I would ask is generally speaking, what color combinations have you found most effective over the years? George George

Response: